I show up first. I don't have a portfolio because I haven't even applied. I haven't started anything. All these junior and senior Parsons kids are coming through the door with their portfolios, and I'm starting to get really scared. I'm just at that point excited to be in Marc Jacobs' offices on Spring Street. I'm looking around. Giselle walks in for her casting. I mean, my resume literally had like no experience. I get a call a month later and I beat out all those candidates.
SPEAKER_01Hello and welcome back to Fashion and Founders the Podcast. My name is Victoria Smith, and this week I'm joined by Michelle Ox, the creative director at Airvay Leger. Michelle has a true fashion career. She tells us how she first broke into the industry and landed an internship at Marc Jacobs before she had even applied to Parsons. Then what fashion school was really like at Parsons and having Tim Gunn as her dean. Then we talk about how she navigated the job market after graduating, which was also during the 2008 financial crisis. Then what it's like being a fashion brand founder and co-founding a brand, and finally coming to today when she transitioned in-house and became the creative director at Air Villa J, and how she is balancing the brand's iconic history with the future that she wants to design. Truly, there's something here for everyone, whether you are a fashion student, a fashion founder, or just a fashion lover. Michelle has incredible advice across the board, especially in the hiring process for fashion. And she shared something that I haven't heard a lot of other people talk about. I think you guys are going to love this episode, so let's get into it. And if you're able to leave the podcast a rating or review and follow or subscribe to the show wherever you listen, it really helps the podcast grow and helps us continue to get incredible guests like Michelle. Hi Michelle. Hi. I am so happy to have you on the podcast and another Marylander. DMP. You are now the creative director of Airvail, but I would love to start with how you got into the fashion industry in the first place.
SPEAKER_02Well, I discovered fashion kind of inadvertently. I grew up in a house of entrepreneurs, a house of chefs, actually. That's what I thought I was going to be. And I really came across fashion, and my access to fashion was fashion TV, which was just a constant stream of fashion shows, if anyone remembers, like playing over and over. And I was just like mesmerized. I just loved the idea of like seeing these looks come down the runway. While I thought I was gonna be a chef, that creativity level was still there, and I thought this is what I want to do. So when I decided that fashion was what I wanted to pursue, I knew I wanted to come to New York. And my first big break was as an intern at Marc Jacobs. And it was actually before I even applied to Parsons. So that was my first big break and big internship that I was at for a while.
SPEAKER_01How old were you?
SPEAKER_02Oh my God. I was 18.
SPEAKER_01And when did you decide I'm gonna go to Parsons?
SPEAKER_02Well, I decided to go to Parsons. As soon as I found out about Parsons, I was like, I'm going to Parsons. That's it. It was it, that was it for me. I was at that point on, that was my goal, that was my plan. I was gonna move to New York. Nothing was gonna stop me. I actually only applied to one school, and that was Parsons. It didn't even come across my mind that I wasn't gonna get into Parsons. So I was very headstrong.
SPEAKER_01I love hearing that. When I was 16 years old, I wanted to go to Parsons so badly. I ended up being a government major. And I've had guests on the podcast who now work in fashion, but didn't have a formal fashion education to kind of like inspire other people that they can still end up in the industry. Absolutely. They had a different degree. But I'd love to hear from you like, what's the counter argument? Why should someone go to fashion school?
SPEAKER_02Well, look, I mean, I came from a small town. I found out about Parsons. For me, I really wanted to go to Parsons to hone my own skills. You don't know what you don't know. It really accelerated things for me. It taught me the technical ability. And it again, it's not necessary. I've seen every path to fashion, whether you're pivoting, whether you went to school, whether you didn't. I think so much of the industry has changed also since I began my career. So there's just so many avenues to express yourself and be in fashion and be part of fashion. But for me, I was very tactile, like hands-on. I wanted to learn the technical portion of it. And that's where it really taught me. I was self-taught at home on my sewing machine. And I just really wanted to get those skills.
SPEAKER_01And I'm sure the networking piece as well, like you're now the creative director of Air Relegation. Like, I wonder who what your classmates are doing now, too.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's funny. The networking piece really came outside of school. I mean, it's great to be part of the school, but really it came through meeting peers, your internships, things that you were doing on the side. I would say so many people that I came up with were people that I met at Parsons. And early in my career, like they were all starting to be stylists. They're everyone was starting their brand or entering the workforce. So it's like, it's really like, I always say look around you because fashion's so small. And like those are the people you're gonna come up with. And it's not necessarily the people you go to school with. It's like, again, where you're interning, where you're working, other people who are passionate about the things that you're doing.
SPEAKER_01And after you graduated, what did you do?
SPEAKER_02Oh my God, look for a job. It was not the best time in the economy for looking for a job. Graduated in 2007. Well, I again very headstrong was like, I'm working at Calvin Klein. That was it. That was the be all. That was the goal of coming to New York was to work at Calvin Klein and Narciso Rodriguez. So those were the kind of two high hopes and pursued those. But in the interim, um, I had met my business partner at Parsons, and it kind of started the ball rolling about like a look that I wanted that we were going for that didn't necessarily find in the market. And that just took over the conversation of looking for a job. And shortly thereafter started Cushney at Ox in 2008, and then the economy fell apart. But it worked in our favor and that we were able to grow very steady and slow. Where at that time you were coming off of Alexander Wing leaving Parsons, Prenzas Schuler, like big names and like the trajectory of those, you know, brands immediately out of Parsons was such a thing at the time that it allowed us to work with factories that maybe wouldn't have worked with us. It allowed us to produce everything here in New York, like be very hands-on. Bergdorf was our first account. So we really like built it in New York City here in the Garmin District.
SPEAKER_01Right now is also kind of a bit of an economic recession. It's hard for people to find jobs, specifically fashion doesn't have a reputation for being the highest paying industry, especially when you're early career. Is this something you would recommend to other people too? Like go for it.
SPEAKER_02I think coming into the industry with kind of your eyes open to that. I mean, it's all the things that you said, but you know, if you're passionate about it, you work hard, it's your, you know, you something you want to pursue. I would never stop anyone from wanting to pursue that. But definitely coming in with open eyes would be helpful.
SPEAKER_01And how long were you running your company until you uh transitioned to AirVeg? So over a decade.
SPEAKER_02It was 10 years, 10 years, very proud of the work. Did everything from you know, ready-to-wear women's, we were doing runway shows, swim, accessories, ghost designing, you name it, handbags. It it was everything. So really proud of that work in that decade.
SPEAKER_01When did you decide I'm actually okay leaving the company that we started, you and your co-founder, and go in-house?
SPEAKER_02So that kind of came to me in a time where we had decided to part ways. And at the time, also I was pregnant, four months pregnant. That wasn't the reason, but it definitely was a big moment. It's it was all I knew, like going straight from school to running this fashion brand. And for 10 years, that's a that's not a small feat for a brand, or I mean, I'm hoping at that point, not calling it an emerging brand anymore. And and it just got to a point where I think it was you wanted an individual voice, and it kind of had run its course. Like, again, super proud of the work. And then this new chapter. But life had other plans and COVID happened almost thereafter. And again, you never have a plan, but like fashion, you need to be able to pivot, be adaptable. So I'm thankful for the time I got home with the kids, but I was dying to come back. So the opportunity at Irve actually presented itself as we were closing. But at that time, I'm like, so many things were changing, and I'm I just couldn't think of taking one more thing on. And it's for you in the right time when it's the right time. So five years had passed from that opportunity, and I was dying to come back. The kids were like settled, like walking in school, you know, like people that didn't need me 24-7. And it represented itself. And I was like, absolutely meant to be. Yeah, it was meant to be.
SPEAKER_01I think something that doesn't often get talked about is like the end of a chapter for a business. And it doesn't have to be a bad thing. It doesn't mean it failed by any means.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I completely agree. If you asked me when I was younger, I would say, you know, you're gonna peel my dead body off of this table. I'm gonna be doing this forever. Like I'm gonna die here at this table at my own business doing this. But fashion teaches you a lesson that things come and go. And it was a very good and hard lesson, but also like probably should have known that about fashion, that things evolve, things change, and it's like you said, not necessarily a bad thing. No. And I think you know, what's come of it has been amazing. And again, no one can tell you in the moment, but looking back was probably the best thing that ever happened.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Where was Arevay as a brand when you entered? Because there's been quite the resurgence of the bandit dress in popular culture, not that it ever went away. Where was that at when you entered?
SPEAKER_02So the brand is 40 years old. So I like to always start there. And, you know, it's someone else's namesake. And coming from having had a namesake as well, like I always wanted to honor that. So I always like I used that as my guiding light and wanted to kind of we have this amazing archive, like go back to the roots and dig through some of that and find these things. And, you know, at the time coming into it, not that it was like one note, but people just knew the bandage dress. And yes, it's the DNA, it's the core of the business. But, you know, they haven't had a female creative director in a long time. My other objective was bringing that female point of view, modernizing it in the sense of like when I entered, she didn't seem approachable. It seemed very hard, like tough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It had a stigma to it that, you know, that it couldn't kind of shake from the past of kind of the club days and, you know, the the 2000s. And it had so many moments and so many great moments. But, you know, I think it was known for one thing and it just needed a shakeup. And that really, again, was bringing consistency, that female point of view, and that modern perspective to the brand. And knowing that when I joined, we were going into the 40th anniversary, which is happening now. Oh. Um, so I set a goal for myself that, you know, I wanted to kind of hit all these milestones in kind of changing the narrative of the brand to reach this pinnacle, shall we say, of the 40th anniversary. And I think we've done a lot in a small amount of time, and I'm glad everyone's seeing the resurgence of it. I mean, look, nothing's around for 40 years if it isn't good and it doesn't fit. Like fashion, that's a long time in fashion. So, so I knew I was working with like a great product. So we just needed to talk about it differently.
SPEAKER_01That is so interesting. And I I almost like want to peel back into like the marketing that had to go into it too, because won't name names, but fast fashion brands came in and copied the bandage dress.
SPEAKER_02Well, I always say you can imitate the look, but you can't like duplicate the feel. You know, an Hervé Leger dress when you put it on. And I think, you know, there's such a brand heritage. There's always going to be dupes no matter what in fashion. So, again, you're creating a community. It is a brand with a history. There will always be look-alikes, but you know, the quality's not there, the fit's not there. You're coming to us for a reason. For me, again, as a designer, fit is like the first and foremost of everything. So it was a full circle moment coming to Irvée because when I started my career, a lot of people weren't dealing in stretch. I mean, they told us stores were like, they're not gonna buy anything that has the word nylon in it. Spandex was a dirty word. No, and I remember now getting into the career, people didn't want to talk about shapewear or wearing shapewear under their clothes. I mean, look how far we've come. So I think coming to a brand like Hervey that's unapologetically sexy, that's known for contouring, where we've come in the conversation, to me, again, feels very full circle.
SPEAKER_01And I think I always say fashion does not exist in a silo. It's a product of economics, sports, just everything political. And I think after COVID as well, like given the party history of it, I think it brought it back to people's attention. How are you taking that, but also redefining it for what you see the future to be?
SPEAKER_02Well, again, perfect storm. I think after COVID, and I'm guilty of it as well. I think we got very comfortable, which I love. But I yeah, I think people wanted to connect with each other, go back out, get dressed, get out of the house. Like, and a little bit of that was tied to the dress of just like, you know, wanting to be out with friends and going back out. And again, maybe being home too long on Pinterest. I mean, it's actually crazy in the time that I've started and this, there's been so much actually organic growth because people are a younger generation was discovering it on Pinterest. They were going in their mother's closets, like, or all hanging out at home, like, mom, what's that? Like, yeah, there were so many TikToks about women, women, yeah, not even girls, going into their mother's closets and trying on these Hervé Leger dresses, which is a testament to the fact that these 20-year-old dresses are still like in perfect shape and condition, quality in their mother's closets. And I always say, you probably should ask your mother, there's probably a story your mom's got associated with this dress as well. Because you all only keep the ones you love, those pieces. So that's also another thing that's great about the brand is that it's 40 years old. So many people come up to me with their stories like I went to homecoming in this, I got engaged in it, and I just had one today, my son's wedding. So again, I love that there's always a story attached to the dress.
SPEAKER_01I remember one of my friends wore an airvay dress to prom. She loved it. It looked great.
SPEAKER_02It looked great, and that's the thing. You went back to it over and over again. I had some dresses when I was younger. I wore it all the time. I could have worn it to death.
SPEAKER_01And almost on like the more technical design side, it's a knit fabric.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So, yes. So technically it is a knit. So I think when people hear knit, they think sweaters, cardigans, oversized. So I'm just, you know, it's always amazing that like a majority of our collection is knit, but it can't it reads and it carries as a ready-to-wear collection. We don't, it's not just dresses. We do gowns, we do dresses, we do tops, we do pants, like all different iterations using always starting with the core material, but you know, it's a full collection.
SPEAKER_01And I feel like I read somewhere that something you were really focused on is also introducing separates. Yes, I'm wearing one right now. I see. Yes. Why was that important to you in your design?
SPEAKER_02Look, maybe it's like again, perfect timing, but like we have such a wide range of customers, and we're seeing now such a new generation just discovering the brand as well. That, and and women who've been with us who've aged with the brand as well. So, like for different phases of life, maybe you came in as a customer and you were younger, and now, like me, your mom, like maybe I don't want to do a full beat and like head to toe and bandage or can pull off a mini, but doesn't mean that I don't want like a top that gives myself myself the same compression. And also trying to introduce people who might necessarily be intimidated by the brand from thinking about what it was back in the day, being like, look, if you don't want to do a dress, we've got a top for you. Or we introducing wovens into the collection where it has like nods to the bandage. So, you know, again, finding those little pockets of categories that have been untapped for the brand.
SPEAKER_01I think it's interesting how you brought up the kind of persona it had before. And I was thinking too about there was a certain body image of the 90s, early 2000s, very thin. And then we have the whole body positivity movement, and now we're facing the zempic education of all these celebrities. People are really thin again. How is this almost a moment to redefine what the dress represents?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think about that all the time. And I think, you know, it's all part of, like you said, fashion doesn't live in a vacuum. It's part of the narrative, but it isn't going back to the 90s look. You know, I think the misconception with the brand is that you have to be a size zero too. It's not true. I think in fashion now, as we've gone through kind of all these phases, is that we're not designing for one ideal body type. We're designing for many body types. And again, we're not not having an ideal body type in mind. She's not thinking about the body, we're thinking about how does it feel, and it works for every body type. And again, what I love about like our material is it conforms and it's not for just size zeros or twos, and it will fit any shape and every curve, anything.
SPEAKER_01I was doing some research on the beginnings of the brand, and I found that Erve, the original designer, would do couture looks and would take the woman's measurement and then create a mannequin of her exact measurements. And that is almost to me the most inclusive type of sizing because a four could look different on 20 different people, for example. Do you see that kind of coming into play in the future designs of like accentuating your best feature, not like the ideal, but like you, you, you?
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's extreme sense of luxury to be able to do that. That's a tour at its finest. I do think like technology will help push accessibility to be able to make things like, yeah, I'm a four on top, I'm a six on the bottom. Like women are not one size fits all. Again, but that's also what's amazing about the knit is that it does kind of give where it needs to give, it snatches where it needs to snatch. But you know, that sense of luxury and the ability to do that, I I, you know, I do think that will remain as like, because people still do want things that are uniquely theirs, but it also celebrates what's unique about you. So we have the archive, and I've seen a lot of those coutort pieces, and really, you can even see when you're like holding up the dress, like the definition and the hips and the the curves, and it's all hand individual bands hand sewn. So really like piece by piece, like molded to the body. It's actually like really beautiful.
SPEAKER_01What is it like going through those archives and seeing such like a legacy?
SPEAKER_02Seeing that it was very clear that there was a definitely a different body standard. Literally, Naomi Campbell had like requested a look of hers from that she wore on the runway. And I was like, Naomi, I held it up, but you know, I know you look fantastic, but I don't, I don't know. Because it was like hand embroidered, and these things are like tiny. Yeah. Tiny. I know they stretch, but like definitely a different time.
SPEAKER_01That must be so cool if you're needing any design inspiration to go back and look through this entire collection.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's amazing. And because it was pre-social media. So I want to do justice for the brand by, you know, some of these things are hand done and couture, but I do want to bring those elements and things that I find really interesting in the archive into the collections. And it's not necessarily like a revival, but they're so beautiful. And this was pre us photographing everything and video everything. And like, I just want people to see it and see what I'm seeing and. Translating that for today because I think it's still so beautiful, still so modern. I mean, it shouldn't be locked in a box.
SPEAKER_01No. I would love to hear more about your day-to-day role as a creative director. To me, it's one probably arguably the most important role in a fashion brand. I think I could name way more creative directors of brands than I could presidents, CEOs, whatever it is. What does it look like?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I got the question and I wanted to think about this. And I would say to narrow it down, it's problem solving. Problem solving all day long. And it's not because there's a ton of problems. You are involved in so many more things than just the design. You're approving swatches, you're in fittings, you're designing, you're working with your team, you're communicating like concepts to them while they're developing swatches, but already thinking about like how is this gonna play out in the styling? How is this gonna look for the lookbook? What am I gonna do for a campaign? And like, so your job really is to like juggle all of these things all at once and be kind of the guide to get everyone to go towards that vision, your point of view, like to land the plane. Like we're all together trying to land this plane, and you're the communicator for that, you're the leader for that, for it all to kind of get there with one point of view, consistent, and then do it four more times. Do you guys show at New York Fashion Week?
SPEAKER_01I believe you do.
SPEAKER_02So we're part of New York Fashion Week. I'm also a CFDA member, so we're part of the calendar, but we show digitally. Got it. And that was really important for me when I joined the brand because, you know, I think the classic way was to do runway. And I'd done runway for so long. And then COVID came and taught us that there are other ways to market. You don't need a runway. People were doing business when we couldn't do runways, we found other creative ways. And I was really interested in how we were doing that versus these shows. And images are king. You're stuck with these static images of these girls. And social media became more important. You just needed more content, and it just wasn't doing that anymore. So I was explicit when I started that I wanted to do lookbooks because I could put her, I needed to change the narrative and I needed to change the styling. I wanted to focus on the woman and put her in an environment and style her in a way that felt like today. And I didn't think I'd be able to accomplish that with a runway.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting because I've heard from other designers that the ROI for them just isn't there.
SPEAKER_02For the runway, yeah, it's not. It's not. And like we're not Louis Vuitton. I mean, you know, like you're not these big mega brands doing crews at these like fabulous locations. And if you don't have that, and these things are extremely expensive, like you want a backdrop. We want all of that, but we have budgets. And and I think it's harder to achieve that on a runway than it was to control it and doing it in a lookbook. What has your approach been to social media for the brand? Definitely UGC. UGC. I, you know, look, I they they were having the brand has a cult following and it just we just needed to streamline everything. Again, as like more of my collections, you know, things were kind of all over the place. So, you know, streamlining our woman, getting the conversation together, getting more collections out there that felt like a consistent point of view. But we love, I love it. I nothing's more rewarding than seeing women in your clothes, getting ready to get dressed, to go out. And I didn't want to shy away from that because to me, that's so part of the brand. Like the fun of getting dressed and going out. I mean, that's what it is. It's having fun, it's, you know, taking cute pics. Like, so we definitely like leaned into it. And I think it's paying off. You know, it was already happening organically, but it wasn't being put in like one place. But and then now we've engaged more and more people, again, I told you organically are finding us on TikTok. So, like they weren't even really doing TikTok when I joined. So, just again, meeting her where she is.
SPEAKER_01I really have been seeing the brand more organically. Yeah. And it's really cool to see it in a new way, in a new light. Especially among the dupes. I see people actually going to buy a secondhand version. They're like, it's better quality and it's actually a better price than some of these dupes coming out.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, again, Real Real has been a great resource. I will even find pieces that I haven't seen on the Real Real. They're coming from women's closets. Yeah. But, you know, they're loved, they stand the test of time, they're on there. Any entrance into the brand to try it on, but we do see people buying Real Real and then coming to us for the collection. So yeah, I always say you have to try one on.
SPEAKER_01I'm like wanting to like go and try one on, like right now as we talk. I need a good event to wear it for, though.
SPEAKER_02And go out with your girlfriends.
SPEAKER_01I know it could be a really anything. Yeah. Kind of going back to your role as a creative director. If there's someone listening, and maybe they're in the position you were, they have a brand, but they're intrigued by going to an established brand already. Are there any things you could recommend, certain steps they should take to be in a role like you are in now?
SPEAKER_02Again, I thought I was going to be at my brand forever. So it wasn't something I thought about, or it wasn't even a title I was thinking about. I'm proud of the word founder as much as I am creative director. They're kind of this, you know, when you're running your own business, they're the same thing. But, you know, for wanting to kind of be or reach that level, I mean, it takes time, takes persistence, it's hard work. I think a lot of what I'm seeing is like people want things immediately. And now it took a lot of time and it took a lot of hard work. And and I think being persistent at what you do, you know, the work shows for itself like over time. I so again, it's hard because I never was like, I had my business and then I did something else, and that just happened to be creative director. And yes, there were skills of being a founder that applied to that. But having good communication skills, I think, and working on that, knowing that you, as a creative director not being at your own business, that you're part of an ecosystem. So I try to think about it as like if you have your own brand, like you're building the plane and you're flying it at the same time. So there's a lot. But when you're a creative director, you're part of a larger ecosystem. And there's benefits, pros and cons to both, but like there are things that are established, there's systems that are working. So being that communicator, being able to communicate to other people, being able to communicate your point of view, that this is a very critical skill.
SPEAKER_01You're also an advisor at FIT. Are there certain conversations you're having there with students, maybe grad students, just other peers in that space? Advice you've learned, you're like, oh, people should be doing this right now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, they're definitely focused on how to prepare this generation for going into the workforce. So uniquely positioned in the sense that I came out of school and started my own business, but then also being part of another ecosystem. And have hired, I, you know, for my own business, hiring for this role. But I just want to remind them and, you know, they were like, what's lacking? I know we live in a digital kind of age now. It's still a tactile business. So what we're trying to reinforce on the board about preparing them is that, yes, get the skills, dabble with the AI, you know, like you need to be prepared that, you know, you're catting, all these like non-sexy things. But when you come for an interview, for me, like the digital, showing a digital portfolio, like it's it's a bit of a turnoff. I know we're in a digital age, but like when we get to sit face to face, I want to see your sketchbook. I want to see the process, I want to see swatches, I want to like touch things. I want, you know, that's what we're gonna be doing all day and kind of swiping on an iPad. Like, so we're just trying to help them prepare, but like come with a printed resume. I mean, I want to touch something. Like, they're like, resume is here, just swipe left. And I'm like swiping and I'm getting to their photos, and e-messages are like showing up at the top. I'm like, oh my God, I can't. We're still a tactile business. It's still very hands-on. Bring, bring the digital, but bring something we can touch.
SPEAKER_01This is a good tip.
SPEAKER_02Yes, please print a resume.
SPEAKER_01No, I like this for like a fashion hiring interview. I think this is a really interesting take. I haven't heard people say, but what a great way to stand out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Like I want to see that you can scan. Yeah, it will absolutely just like across the board stand out.
SPEAKER_01How have you seen the hiring landscape change since you were applying for Calvin Klein to now?
SPEAKER_02Oh, how has it changed? I mean, I don't I didn't get a job. I don't know. Um look, it's it's it's, you know, you find people who are eager. I see such amazing creative books. It's not for lack of talent. The industry is creating amazing talent. It's just like you almost want to hire them all. You know, again, about that, it it's really the tools. And you kind of get jealous looking at some of the tools that they have. I would say that like from when we were applying, everything was extremely manual. Like we were still watercoloring. Like, I mean, it makes us sound like we're 100 years old. Like, I mean, the amount of tools that they all have at their disposal now. I mean, what we could have done, that's the most amazing part of it. And you kind of get jealous. The amount of programs that are out there, the amount of scholarships that are out there, resources to help look for jobs. It felt very limited when we were looking. And it was really like you worked in the garment district. It was like everybody was in the same, like it was those five blocks, like, and you had to know who you knew. And yeah, it just so I think there are just so many more resources now to look and help with finding positions that kind of makes me jealous.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Are there certain resources or tools you use within your company now that have like been a game changer?
SPEAKER_02I mean, well, Instagram didn't exist when we started Cushionate Ox. Yeah. That's even like amazing like to hear and say. I think it came out two years after we started, started. And I'm like, not even just so even to just say Instagram is a tool that we use. No, but like everyone's using Canva and all the AI, all the different AIs and Procrate, and you can just name them all. There's still the tried and true Photoshop and Excel. Excel. But yeah, you know, fashion takes a little bit longer to adapt to technology.
SPEAKER_01I agree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think the tech world needs to speak to the fashion world a bit more and not be like, here, use this eye.
SPEAKER_02Just one eye's over here and she's got three legs. It's fine. Fashion probably moves as fast as tech. So we should definitely have a conversation.
SPEAKER_01Fast fashion has just changed the way, like you said, the speed of the industry so much. What is it like being the creative director designing these collections in such a fast-paced landscape now?
SPEAKER_02I don't think the pace or our calendar hasn't really changed. I think the tools that we have access to has made the process move slightly faster.
SPEAKER_01I think you've already made such an impact on the brand perception. What do you hope to do for the next five years?
SPEAKER_02I mean, continue to evolve the brand. I want to open up more product categories. I would love some collabs. That would be really fun. Cause I really do see the DNA extending to beyond the dress. Like I always say, I want to own the whole look. I want like the perfume. I want the sunglasses, I want her shoe. I want the whole going out look.
SPEAKER_01Are there any ideal partners that you could name or anything?
SPEAKER_02Oh, I'm I don't work with anyone. I not partners, but I do think Herve Leger had a perfume a really long time ago. That would be amazing to be able to achieve that. And and I even tracked one down, a vintage bottle, because I just wanted to see what it smelt like because we still get so many requests for this perfume. Sunglasses or opticals, any of that, because we use so much of it for storytelling and styling, and it's an easy thing that's in her purse. It's very her, like carrying a bunch of sunglasses. So I, you know, those would be my two kind of dream categories.
SPEAKER_01You have been in the industry for a while now. You've been you've seen it through all these different lenses. Do you have any stories from the beginning that have really like impacted you for where you are now in your career?
SPEAKER_02I mean, I think there's so many amazing moments, but I think really the starting the brand, the closing the brand, having that lesson carry through this kind of next phase of my career. And it's hard to like pinpoint what the one thing is, but like there were so many lessons learned there. And I'm so grateful for kind of the sequence of events because you asked earlier about like being a founder and going to Hervey. I don't think it could have happened any other way. Like in the sense that like I was able to build a career with my point of view and learn those lessons, and then bringing that experience to Hervey, I don't think it could have happened in reverse for me. So I think that time is very special to me. And again, very proud of that work. So it's gotten me to where I am today.
SPEAKER_01What about the Mark Jacobs internship you said that you had even before Parsons? Yes, that's actually a funny story.
SPEAKER_02So I came to New York. I was not 18 yet. I was hellbent on going to Parsons. I hadn't even applied to Parsons yet. But one of my neighbors, roommate, they were roommates in college together. We were very close. Me and my neighbor, it was like an older neighbor. They were much older. So she was finishing college. They both went to New York. She knew I was always passionate about fashion. She heard I was coming to the city. You're making all your connects, like, who can I connect with? Yeah. And she, her roommate went into kind of the accounting finance department there. And she said, There's internship, like a list opening up. I know your neighbor loves this. Should I put her name down? I was like, Yes. I get there, I show up first. I don't have a portfolio because I haven't even applied. I haven't started anything. All these kind of junior and senior Parsons kids are coming through the door with their portfolios, and I'm starting to get really scared. And I'm like, um, okay. I'm just at that point excited to be in Marc Jacobs like offices on Spring Street. I'm looking around, they're casting. Like Giselle walks in for her casting. I'm like, what is going on? I'm not even paying attention. I forgot that I was even there for an interview. I get there and I'm like, this is such a long shot. I mean, I'm like lined up here with like senior Parson people. I'm not even applied yet to this school. I know I'm not getting this. So first thing I sat down and said was just like, this is the coolest day of my life. I'm like, I told them, I'm like, I don't think I'm getting this, but like honestly, this has been the best day of my life seeing this. And then they're like, and then we start going through some of the questions, and you know, no portfolio, nothing. And I just said, look, you know, I said, I work hard, I take direction, I'm smart, I can do this. I mean, my resume literally had like no experience. I get a call a month later and I beat out all those candidates. Wow. Because, you know, be willing to put in the work. I think, and I see that a lot too when I interview. Like, I love the point of view. I want to hear your portfolio. I, you know, I also want to remind students, you're also like, we want to hear and see your inspiration, your design, but have to remember that you're also coming into a brand that has a different point of view. Not necessarily your point of view, but you will be designing into someone else's another brand, aesthetic. So I think you have to remember that you gotta be able to like take yourself out of that too, but like to put in the work and to show that you're willing to work. Because I think a lot of it is like, this is what I do. And I'm like, we're not interviewing for you starting your own business, we're interviewing for you to come into a brand and to know that you understand that and that you're gonna put the work in. So I guess it worked. Don't do, don't, do not follow my example and start an interview like that. But I had nothing to lose and it paid off.
SPEAKER_01But I love that story. Yeah. And I think that sometimes people are like, oh, it's not cool to be like so excited about something, but when you're hiring and you're passionate about it, like yeah, I think it makes you stand out so much more to be like, I love this. This is the coolest day of my life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean, I don't know what it that was years ago, so but yeah, it definitely paid off. I started a journey.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Okay, I have a few like speed round questions for you. Is there one trend you think we need to bring back?
SPEAKER_02Getting dressed. Getting dressed to go out, just get dressed, like put in put in the effort, get dressed. Let's go out. Do you have a fashion hot take? Make fashion fun again. I feel like we've lost a little bit of that. Like maybe because we're in our little design bubble, but you know, I you don't need to take yourself so seriously. Like make it fun, have a point of view, stand by it. That's what all the great editors, the great buyers, like it wasn't for everybody, but it was a point of view. I think we're missing some of that. I think there's a lot, and it's very easy to get caught up. And this is from a design perspective, or any looking at anything in fashion, seeing what other people are doing, looking left and right. Like, just own it. Just do you and own it.
SPEAKER_01It's hard with the algorithm now. Yeah. Do you have any like practices you do that other people could maybe take on as well? Of like, yeah, I need to garner my own point of view more and stop looking at what everybody else is doing.
SPEAKER_02I mean, look, the algorithm is gonna find you, you know, and and you do sometimes, and I feel it too, feel like I'm getting fed the same thing. I'm like, did I see that? I'm like, is this the same girl? Like, it does get like a little fatigue, but listen to your gut. You know what you're drawn to. Try and not just stay on the algorithm. Go find, go find unique pieces, like you said. Like you hone your own style. You know, there's some level where it's being fed to you, and then there's things that you're naturally attracted to, and you just have to remember the difference. Totally. Is there a fashion industry misconception you think there is? Oh my god, that it's all glamorous. It's all glamorous. It's so funny because you were asking about Parsons. Tim Gunn was my dean. Oh my god. And this was the start of Project Runway, and you would go back home, and I mean, it was like peak Project Runway. They were still filming the first two seasons in Parsons, and people just thought it was so glamorous. And I'm like, it is like crazy in there because we were watching them film it, they were like in our classes. I'm like, it's not just and I tell my daughter this everything you see, this there's a lot of work that goes behind it, and a lot of it's not real. So just remember that. That's crazy. Tim Gunn was your deal.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01What was that like?
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, him and like Heidi Klum going through the hallways. Yeah. It felt unreal. It's not always all glamorous. Fashion's not all glamorous, but those are some like cool moments.
SPEAKER_01Even just having, I think, a real interaction with someone in person, not just through a TV, is can strip away a little bit of that perception. That's really interesting. Do you have a favorite celebrity Air Véliche look?
SPEAKER_02Oh, oh my God. There's so many moments. I think the early 90s is, you know, pretty up there. But I mean, there's like, I don't think I could pick one. There's like name a few. Name a few. Naomi Campbell. There's Cindy Crawford at the Oscars. There's the Cel. We get a lot of requests for that Selma Hayek, like lavender dress. Anything with Fran Jessure, please reach out. I would love to do something. She was such a fan, and I was a fan of the nanny. And I like I was a fan of the show, not putting together that like she's coming down these stairs with all these like couture, couture Hervé Leger looks. Amazing. I mean, again, 40 years. Brand has had so many moments.
SPEAKER_01There are so I'm just such iconic.
SPEAKER_02Oh, Amon. We were just talking about this. Amon's wedding dress to David Bowie, head to toe bandage. The gloves were bandaged. They trimmed her shoes in bandage. Wow. The dress was a bandage gown. I mean, and we gotta recently dress her again, make a create a custom look for her. So it was like really cool.
SPEAKER_01There's almost like brand ambassadors, is probably isn't the right word, but they are just they exude the brand as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I've I've heard, and it's only a rumor, not confirmed, but apparently Bet Midler has one of the biggest Hervé Leger collections, which I would have never connected the two, but please confirm. But that's something that I heard they're through the grapevine that she's got an Hervé Leger collection.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So think of Rihanna's. I mean Rihanna, the pink. Yeah. Oh, yes. There's some great ones. It's just so flattering. Like these people are all so different, but and wearing different dresses and different times. What is a resource recommendation you have for people?
SPEAKER_02I would absolutely, again, I was saying, I felt like there was only really one for us when I started, which was CFDA, which I think is an amazing resource. But there's so much more now. There's Fashion Scholarship Fund, there's Raise Fashion, there's so many things. And they do these, you can apply, you can become members. They're networking, their community. I really encourage people to it. You will find your peers. For me, I was a CFDA scholarship award winner at Parsons. I'm a member now. Like it has been with me through my whole career. So I really, really recommend.
SPEAKER_01Special.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, finding your community.
SPEAKER_01I like you say something that I'm like, I have like 20 more questions. What is something you would want people to know about? You was a founder and you was a creative director of this brand going forward. Is there a fingerprint you want to leave on the brand?
SPEAKER_02I've had some amazing moments. I think dressing women, I seeing women in your clothes, you know, celebrities great, editorials great, seeing women who like saw that, it spoke to them, they paid their hard-earned money for it, and they wore it and they had a great time. That is that's everything to me. Someone stopping you, being like telling those stories, you've left your mark on someone. So, you know, being part of those moments, I think are amazing. But you know, the other stuff's fun too. And I think the biggest thing, I think I actually have one of my dresses in the National Archive. Wow. It was for Michelle Obama's first Christmas in Washington. So, you know, for whatever happens in my career that will forever in history be at the National Archive. So I think that's pretty cool. That's very cool. I love that.
SPEAKER_01Do you have any upcoming announcements for the brand that you can share?
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, 40 years we have an amazing capsule collection that is, I would say, the culmination of everything kind of we've talked about in my time at Hervey. So it's a capsule of 10 dresses that are from the most iconic, recognizable moments. Rihanna might be one of them. Um but it's out now. It really highlights how far we've come in the three years I've joined the brand, and it won't be the last capsule. So I think we've really opened the door to a new generation and got such an amazing reaction. And, you know, we were surprised by it and definitely want to continue that. Amazing.
SPEAKER_01Is there something you see like Gen Z coming to the brand with or lawing out of it?
SPEAKER_02You know, it's funny when they're coming to the brand, I always say they're not like rediscovering it because they didn't know it. Do you know what I mean? So I it makes you feel old. They're like, I'm a brand or Vail. And I'm like, okay. But like a sensibility, what they're wearing it to, colors, colors that maybe, you know, like I don't want to say like millennial pink. I feel like there's a different, like a muted color tone. There, the more pastels. That's what they're being drawn to. That's their aesthetic. And it's something that we've never kind of dabbled in, like very like electric, hot colors. Like, so like putting some of those silhouettes in it. I mean, again, you're moving with the times, and if you don't move, you die. So, really, things that maybe have not worked in the past, you know, they're like pastels didn't really work for us. But now we're doing it and like can't keep them on the shelf. So again, never say never in fashion, also.
SPEAKER_01Also, Gen Z has such a nostalgia for passings. And I'm sure that the history, like once they do discover it for the first time, I guess. Yeah, I'm sure it's appealing that it has such a history to it as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And they're it it though, it's like two ships crossing at night. They're they're literally looking at the nostalgia, but the brand was there at the time that they're looking at it, but it's here today, it's relevant, they can get their hands on it. You're not just looking at something and trying to recreate a look. Like we're still here, we're evolving with you. The product's amazing. It's here. And they love it. Access right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Is there a pressure that comes with being the creative director of a brand with such an iconic hero product?
SPEAKER_02I've thought about this. Again, pros and cons. When you build your own business, you don't have a DNA. You are defining everything in the moment, and it has to be different than anything that's out there. And that's extremely difficult. But you have the freedom to do that. But that's also extremely like you need to be disciplined in doing that, and you have to stand out. Whereas coming into a brand that has such a deep history, it is nice to be able to be like, what were the codes that were established? Having a kind of a roadmap, like what worked, what didn't work? How did another creative director, you know, we've gone through a few people. How did they approach it? What was their sensibility? How am I gonna be different than that? But like speak to the times that you're in. So it's it's a little bit different. But then it's also like, yes, is it only bandage? Is that all I'm doing? No. So I think, you know, it's very interesting coming from both worlds.
SPEAKER_01Totally. Yeah. And I like that that perspective from is I think it's just so unique that you have the founder and the in-house. And like you said, creative director, when you are a founder, is kind of the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. You're also the janitor and the accountant and yeah, everything. Everything.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much for coming on. I think Airville J, the iconic band address, everything that you're recreating the brand to be is just so fascinating. And I can't wait to see what comes in the future.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I'm excited. There's always room to evolve. Where can everyone find you? You can find me on OxMichelle on Instagram and Miss Michelle Ox on TikTok. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Michelle. Perfect. Thank you.