How Liz Powers of ArtLifting Is Changing Artists' Lives

Liz Powers, Co-Founder and CEO of ArtLifting, has built an art business that changes lives and communities. She connects photographers, painters, and sculptors - many facing disabilities or housing insecurity - with Fortune 500 clients like Google, Amazon, and PayPal, helping them earn income, gain recognition, and turn their passion into a career.

In this episode, Liz shares the inspiring story behind ArtLifting, how she turned a social mission into a thriving business, and what photographers and visual artists can learn from her journey. We also dive into her ambitious vision for the future - because she’s just getting started.

If you’re passionate about photography, creativity, or how social impact art changes lives, this episode is a must-listen.

Show Notes:

• ArtLifting Website
• ArtLifting Instagram
• Liz Powers Instagram
• Liz Powers LinkedIn

Welcome to the Big Photo Hunt, arguably the worlds friendliest photography community.

Some more stuff for you:

• The Big Photo Hunt is the world's friendliest photography community.
• Ken Deckinger created a YouTube channel for learnings and tips.
• And of course, the Big Photo Hunt is on Instagram.

Transcript

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00:00:00:09 - 00:00:23:10

It's just shocking in a good way, how this really tiny seed of an idea of let's celebrate people's talents has really taken off of people wanted the chance to support artists with disabilities. They just didn't have a bridge to connect with them. 

00:00:26:14 - 00:00:47:26

Welcome to the Big Photo Hunt Podcast, a show where we talk with aspiring and professional photographers to help us all grow and improve our photography together. I'm your host, Ken Deckinger. If you're one of our community members and you'd like to be a guest on the show, please visit Big Photo hunt.com for more information. 

00:00:59:11 - 00:01:37:11

Today I'm speaking with Liz Powers. Liz is the co-founder and CEO of ArtLifting. ArtLifting connects artists with disabilities and housing insecurity with clients to buy and license their artwork. And when I say clients, I don't mean your neighbors with the pretty house, although they may have a few ArtLifting pieces, but I mean fortune 500 companies such as LinkedIn, Google, and Amazon to name a few. And for every painting, sculpture or photograph that is sold, 55% of the profits go directly to the artist. 

00:01:38:14 - 00:01:44:08

I was just telling my partner, I'm like, I get to talk to Ken today because it's been so many years. 

00:01:44:14 - 00:01:55:24

So many, and I know we were in touch like a year or two ago, and we were like, let's get together for coffee. We never did. I think it was my fault. I think I was like, yeah, let you know when I can. And so, you know, this is like a virtual coffee. We'll still do coffee sometime. 

00:01:55:26 - 00:01:56:15

Awesome. 

00:01:57:11 - 00:02:12:11

Why don't we get into first Introducing yourself to everybody and introducing ArtLifting to everybody. And also talk a little bit about where it came from and what inspired you to do ArtLifting. Start ArtLifting. 

00:02:13:15 - 00:02:30:19

Great. I'm Liz Powers. I'm the co-founder and CEO of ArtLifting. ArtLifting champions artists with disabilities, and we partner with 500 corporations to have artwork in their spaces. I started ArtLifting 11 years ago. 

00:02:30:29 - 00:02:37:18

And what inspired you to do this? Because it's you're selling art, but everything you do has a massive impact on people's lives. 

00:02:37:27 - 00:03:11:04

Yeah. My motivation and inspiration to start ArtLifting came from back in the day, when I was a college student from 2006 to 2010, and I was doing volunteer social work, helping people get jobs and housing. And during that time, people would say to me, Liz, I want an opportunity, not a handout. But with many clients, I literally applied to 100 jobs with them and they were. Quote unquote lucky when they got a rejection, because at least that was a response. 

00:03:11:19 - 00:03:55:15

So I really wanted to expand the definition of what a job could be in order to include more people in the economy, but didn't know how to do that. But then when I was an art therapist full time in homeless shelters in Cambridge, mass. That's when everything clicked as I saw really salable work that would literally get stuffed in the closets of the shelters where I was working. So my brother and I teamed up and started ArtLifting as a marketplace to help sell artwork that was otherwise not typically seen by people and help people not just sell their originals, but also print reproductions of their pieces and license their work. 

00:03:55:18 - 00:04:06:25

And you say salable. And that's important, I think, because it's easy to confuse an organization that impacts people's lives with an inferior product. But it's not that these are talented artists. 

00:04:07:06 - 00:04:37:20

Definitely. And that's a big thing that we're trying to change, as well as the stigma against individuals with disabilities. Um, oftentimes when people hear our mission, they assume like this is quote unquote a charity. We're getting art that's not that good, but it's to be nice. But then when they see the artwork and the talent of the artists, it helps, um, kind of change the stereotypes in their own mind and empower individuals. 

00:04:38:02 - 00:04:46:21

When you were working with these artists and trying to get them jobs and couldn't, what was the reason that you couldn't get them jobs before ArtLifting? 

00:04:46:26 - 00:05:21:01

Yeah. So to clarify, from 2006 to 2010, I wasn't working with artists. I was working with individuals who were homeless or had disabilities. And the main obstacle was the last recession. So obviously in 2008, there were not a lot of jobs to go around. And obviously, um, you know, people who didn't have as much of a work history, it was even harder for them to get a job. And then combined with other challenges someone might have of a mental health condition or whatnot. 

00:05:21:11 - 00:05:31:14

Um, it was very clear that there needs to be more creativity around definitions of jobs in order to be more inclusive. 

00:05:31:19 - 00:05:46:05

When you say inclusive, you've got these artists and then the artists. Basically they had a product, they had something to sell, they were an artist and they were trying to get a job making widgets or something, but in reality they already had a skill and something they could sell. So. Is that where you're headed with that? 

00:05:46:11 - 00:06:23:06

Well, yeah. So starting in 2010, I was running art therapy groups in homeless shelters. So that's when I saw incredible art talent. And that's most people weren't trained as artists, they just had raw talent. So that's when everything clicked. Thinking, wow, this world, the world needs to see this amazing work. Not it shouldn't be stuffed in closets, but also thinking about the confidence boost for individuals talents to be seen and the much needed money that they could earn from selling their work. 

00:06:23:15 - 00:06:34:26

So how did you start this? Did you contact people that you knew from your art therapy experience? How were you able to get your first artists on board, and then go out and find clients to buy the art? 

00:06:35:06 - 00:07:10:14

It was a journey. Um, so starting in 2010, I was a I was 22, I was very naive. And I was really blessed to get this grant from Harvard for graduating seniors to start up. Um, it's a self-designed public service project. So I wrote an essay saying during these four years of social work, a recurring theme I saw was in back to back, one on one meetings, my clients telling me, Liz, I'm really lonely. 

00:07:11:02 - 00:07:41:19

And that got to me emotionally, as you can imagine. But also it felt like this isn't rocket science. If in three back to back, one on one meetings, people told me they're lonely. How can I create a safe space to bring them together? And I'm an artist. So I thought, well, what a no brainer. Rather than kind of like a stale listening and support group with fluorescent lights and no one wanting to talk. 

00:07:42:03 - 00:08:21:13

Why don't I just start at art groups, throw art supplies on the table and we'll have a creative outlet, and then we'll naturally start chatting and earn trust with each other over time. But I wasn't trained as an art therapist, I realized I'm very naive. I need to learn from the experts. So I reached out to art therapists at six other homeless shelters in the Boston area and built relationships over time and realized, oh my gosh, there's all this amazing, salable work at all of these different art groups. 

00:08:22:02 - 00:09:00:22

There just wasn't a marketplace to sell the work and showcase it. So I decided, well, why don't I start an art show and team up with these other art therapists and the artists they represent? So starting in 2011, we held the first art show. It was called City Heart, and it brought together eight local art therapy groups and had 80 artists. That was an annual art show. So over the years we were able to get a nicer and nicer places and we ended up in the main mall in Boston. 

00:09:01:08 - 00:09:31:28

Boston Properties donated this space to us for the day. So all of a sudden we weren't in a church basement anymore. And, you know, people who were walking to Barnes and Noble just happened to walk by us. And that's when the aha moment clicked. Because, you know, strangers, not my grandmother and my mom, but strangers were saying, wow, this is like, such an amazing idea. When's the next show I want to come back. 

00:09:32:03 - 00:10:11:10

And it was so depressing to say it's in 364 days. So just decided, well, why don't we create a marketplace where we're not just selling art one day a year, but every day? And we're not just selling original artwork, but also art prints and licensing it. And we're not just representing artists in Boston, but why don't we expand to represent artists all over? So it was a pretty simple idea, but we're really proud to have scaled over the years, and we now represent 200 artists in 36 states. 

00:10:11:28 - 00:10:23:28

And we've started with 4000 of our savings. So really tiny. And we've scaled to sell tens of millions worth of artwork, with the majority of the profit going right back to the artists. 

00:10:27:18 - 00:11:01:04

Hey, it's Ken, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode of the Big Photo Hunt podcast with Liz Powers from ArtLifting. I don't love asking for favors, because this podcast and the Big Photo Hunt is all about building a community for you, not me. But if you're enjoying the show, I do have one small ask that's to share this podcast with a friend who might benefit from it. We're working hard to grow this community, and so every new photographer who joins because of a recommendation makes it even stronger. 

00:11:01:14 - 00:11:07:03

That's it. If you're up for it, I'd be incredibly grateful. Now back to the show. 

00:11:10:14 - 00:11:26:29

That's amazing. And your clients now like you're selling this company's. Amazon. Google, Fedex I saw PayPal. These are just a few hallmark, which my wife would be excited because of those movies, those Christmas movies that run all year. 

00:11:27:05 - 00:11:50:26

Yeah, yeah. With hallmark. We started that partnership about two years ago, and it's been a huge hit. The artwork's on cards, as you can imagine, but also other products. And this year I believe that expanded to 12,000 stores. That partnership, it's just amazing visibility for our artists in addition to the the income. 

00:11:51:00 - 00:12:10:03

How do these artists react? How do they feel when they see their art? I mean, you know, you're whether you're down on your luck, you know, you have a disability or something that is making life challenging for you. Thanks to our lifting, now your art is on a greeting card in 12,000 stores. How do these artists react to this? 

00:12:10:13 - 00:12:54:24

It's been incredible to hear their different reactions. Um, it's a huge range of some artists have said. Now I have reason to get out of bed in the morning. Like it was hard to get out of bed before. And now I have all this energy and inspiration to keep creating. Artists have like the hallmark example. It was so heartwarming to just get photos of artists all over the country, in new Jersey and Denver and wherever they live going in and, you know, taking selfies with their work and just their smiles alone said so much about how excited they were to be treated with the respect that they deserve. 

00:12:54:28 - 00:13:02:24

Is that a big part of it? It's not just the financial help, but it's also what it does for them confidence wise and respect internally. 

00:13:03:06 - 00:13:33:13

Definitely. Yeah. So we measure our impact in two ways. One is the emotional impact and one is the financial impact. And of course it's hard to quantify emotional impact. We do that in part through just hearing our artists reactions with individual interviews. But we also, for probably the last decade or so, have had an annual anonymous artist survey. We've learned from experts. 

00:13:33:15 - 00:13:47:29

And how do you quantify things that feel really qualitative, like emotional impact. So it's been really nice to have year over year data on how the emotional impact has changed over time. 

00:13:48:10 - 00:13:53:28

The artists, some of them that are homeless, I mean, they're able to move into a home and start their life over, I guess. 

00:13:54:01 - 00:14:36:11

Yeah, yeah. So for example, Scott Brenner, one of our first few artists. He was homeless when we started working together, and about a year after we started partnering, it was amazing to see his work. He had sold originals for as much as 25,000. After never having sold artwork before, and was giving speeches in Google to an employee engagement event and had a solo show there, um had a licensing deal with Lisa, a mattress company with his art sewn into the mattresses and a licensing deal with Starbucks with his art on their plastic gift cards. 

00:14:36:17 - 00:14:54:16

So it was just with him as an example. It was amazing to see him take off as an artist and get housing, and he's really proud to still be in that housing a decade later and be a working artist now. That's his profession. 

00:14:55:02 - 00:14:57:18

Wow. How does this make you feel? 

00:14:59:01 - 00:15:33:02

Really energized and proud that this kind of tiny seed of an idea has grown and had so many branches come off it? And at the same time, I also feel like we're at the very beginning of there's so much more impact we can have of we we work with 500 companies, about 60 of which are fortune 500. But I think about, well, that means there's 440 that we don't work with at all yet. 

00:15:33:04 - 00:15:51:09

So just thinking of all the possibilities for the future and how much more impact we can have on our artists and impact we can have on people viewing the artwork. And as I was mentioning earlier, help change the stigma and stereotypes that they might have. 

00:15:51:29 - 00:15:54:21

And how many people are working now at ArtLifting. 

00:15:55:13 - 00:15:58:05

Our full time staff is 26. 

00:15:58:12 - 00:16:34:24

Wow. That's cool. That's so. I'm proud of you, Liz. This is cool. I know I sound like a proud parent or something, but kind of weird, but I think that, like, oh, it's just cool because I remember when we met and for our listeners, when Liz and I met, we were in a startup accelerator called Mass Challenge, and we were all working out of a massive warehouse type building that was converted into a startup space and creative space at big tables and just kind of all leaning on each other, you know, hey, do you know how to do this? Hey, I know how to do this. 

00:16:34:26 - 00:17:05:20

Do you want to know how to do this? And that was when we were young bucks. And, um, now, you know, as mature adults, it's just cool to see that it's really cool. And whenever I see you in the news, or I hear an announcement about a new fortune 500 company that you're working with, I just I'm just so excited for you, because I know what it means to you. And I know as an entrepreneur, someone who basically fights an uphill battle every day. You struggle and you work and you work and you work and to see this success is really cool. 

00:17:05:22 - 00:17:07:19

So I'm very happy for you. That's pretty cool. 

00:17:07:26 - 00:17:43:04

Thank you. And yeah, to that point, I, um, there's so many ups and downs as an entrepreneur. Uh, so, as you can imagine, over the 11 years there have been plenty of downs. Um, but it's been really moving to, you know, personally know our artists and see their resilience in action. And, you know, that can't help but rub off on you. And we've heard that from our customers a lot, too, of, you know, when they're having a bad day and planning is not working out. 

00:17:43:10 - 00:18:20:20

And then they look up and see artwork and a plaque with a photo of artist Eric Santamaria, who happens to have cerebral palsy and can't paint with his hands, but he found a way to create, using his wheelchair with the canvas on the ground and his markers or paint brushes on the back bar of his wheelchair. So I'm just we're constantly surrounded by innovation from our artists, and that's definitely gotten the juices flowing for our team to realize, okay. 

00:18:20:24 - 00:18:25:25

A lot of times planning doesn't work out. So what's plan B and plan C and plan D? 

00:18:26:19 - 00:19:00:16

I think I told you about my friends in Havana. They have a studio, it's Art Brut and it's for outsiders. Outsiders in Cuba means people that have disabilities or have otherwise been shunned by their family, or they are not licensed by the government to sell their art. Because in Cuba, you have to have gone to one of the state schools in order to get an art license. And at that point, you're licensed to officially sell your art. So they bring people in. There was a guy there that I forget his name, but he had schizophrenia and was a burden to his family and and himself. 

00:19:00:22 - 00:19:31:27

And Samuel Rivera, who started this, brought him in. I forgot what he was doing. He was teaching him to paint. And the guy's paintings were okay one day, because it was Cuba. They couldn't get paint because you can't get a lot of things in Cuba. And so that day, Samuel gave him a pencil and it's like, okay, the guy starts sketching these incredible, massive cityscapes of cities around the world in such fine detail. And he had never left Cuba. He's never been to all these cities. 

00:19:31:29 - 00:19:54:24

And he just makes this beautiful. They're really intense. But there are these beautiful cityscape sketches out of his mind that comes from a place, you know, he's never seen, these places. He's never been to any of these cities, but these intricate details. And now he is a successful artist by Cuban standards and is able to earn a living and change his life. It's pretty cool. 

00:19:55:27 - 00:20:06:15

That's amazing. Oh, I don't know if I ever told you because of your recommendation, I actually went to that studio in Cuba and got to meet Samuel. Yeah. 

00:20:06:17 - 00:20:07:11

You did? 

00:20:08:24 - 00:20:11:11

A long time ago. Maybe seven years ago. Or. 

00:20:11:16 - 00:20:14:29

I didn't know this. So, you know Samuel. 

00:20:15:08 - 00:20:18:09

Yeah, well, I got to meet him one day. Yeah. 

00:20:18:11 - 00:20:21:10

No, wait. Did you see this art there? Then there were these. 

00:20:21:12 - 00:20:26:09

Yeah, it was seven years ago, but I'm pretty sure I saw this specific work. 

00:20:26:20 - 00:20:30:10

Wow, that is so cool. I had no idea that you went there. 

00:20:30:21 - 00:20:37:23

I can't wait. Yeah, I need to look at my phone. Okay, go back to the photos, but I bet I have photos of his specific work. 

00:20:37:26 - 00:20:57:09

I remember I introduced you guys, and I didn't know anything happened. Anything came of that. That is so. That makes me so happy. I love that guy. He is so inspirational. And, you know, he was a professor in Cuba, an art professor, which is a pretty cool career there and has basically walked away and turned his home into that gallery. 

00:20:57:22 - 00:21:00:11

That's incredible. I was so moved by him. 

00:21:00:13 - 00:21:37:00

So I got to show you something funny. Did you see on the front he has these little wood statues that he made called pioneers, you know? Yeah. So I don't know if you know the story about that, but they're supposed to represent Cuban children because they call them when they go to school. They call them pioneers, and they wear these, like, outfits, like the blue shorts and a red bandana or something. And he's basically he uses it as a political statement. Anyway, one thing led to another. I love that stuff. And so he and his husband, they're bears, which in the gay community is, you know, big furry guys, right? And I was like, you know, Samuel, if I were gay, I think I'd be a bear. 

00:21:37:15 - 00:21:49:06

And he's like, I don't know, Ken, but okay, whatever. Anyway, on one of my trips to Cuba, he made this for me. And I keep it here on my desk. It's one of his pioneers. 

00:21:51:16 - 00:21:52:17

As a bear. 

00:21:54:00 - 00:21:55:03

That's amazing. 

00:21:55:05 - 00:21:56:25

And look, look, look. It's bald head. 

00:21:57:00 - 00:21:59:19

It's me. I was going to say, where's the hair? On the head? 

00:21:59:24 - 00:22:03:12

No hair. And then look. I don't know. It's kind of. 

00:22:06:01 - 00:22:07:00

That's awesome. 

00:22:07:02 - 00:22:38:16

So I keep this on my desk, and he gave me a little card and it said from the Havana Bear Club. So I have it on my desk. And for years I've been meaning to put it like an acrylic and put it on my wall, and I tell him I'm in touch with. Every once in a while I'm like, this thing is still here. It's one of the most meaningful gifts I've gotten on my travels. It's pretty cool. For our listeners, if you're ever in Cuba. Check out Riera Studio. In a lot of ways, there's there's a connection between what Liz does with ArtLifting. It's different. It's Cuba, and things are different in Cuba. 

00:22:38:18 - 00:22:50:04

But it's a really special place. Or just find me somehow, and I'll introduce you to Samuel because he's a really special guy. That's cool. I had no idea you went there. That is. That makes me so happy. 

00:22:50:09 - 00:22:54:18

I'm gonna find some selfies we took seven years ago and texted them to you after this. 

00:22:54:20 - 00:23:09:07

Please, please. I'm gonna tell Samuel that we're in touch. Okay, so basically what you're doing is you're bringing the artists in, and then you're selling their art, you're licensing their art, you're putting their art in a rotation. Is that right? 

00:23:09:19 - 00:23:10:29

So renting the art. 

00:23:11:09 - 00:23:23:18

And then from all of these, from the sales, from licensing, from the rotation, 50% is going back to the artist. And then you also have a fund, right, a community fund that you support. 

00:23:23:20 - 00:23:56:16

So our business model has been the same since day one, with the artists earning 55% of the profit and then 1% of the profit going to our art supply fund. So we now work with artists in 36 states, many of whom are in art groups and different social service programs. So we'll give art supplies both to individual artists, but also to the groups so The art supplies can benefit everyone in the group, not just the ArtLifting artists. 

00:23:57:00 - 00:24:06:25

And if someone listening to this is a fortune 500 CEO and they're interested in talking to you about this, how does that process work? 

00:24:07:10 - 00:24:23:01

So our website is ArtLifting.com. So it's the words art and uplifting but combined. So typically we just have people reach out to us through the website. Um and then we'll connect the right team member. 

00:24:23:12 - 00:24:31:10

What is the most valuable lesson that you've gotten out of this whole experience? What have you learned that shocked you? 

00:24:32:21 - 00:25:06:20

Mm. I think 11 years ago, if you were telling me artists could earn six figures a year from this, I would say that's impossible, but that's happened. So it's just shocking in a good way. How This really tiny seed of an idea of let's celebrate people's talents has really taken off of people wanted the chance to support artists with disabilities. 

00:25:06:22 - 00:25:40:19

They just didn't have a bridge to connect with them shown. Just a simple idea and some determination to make it work and really help change inequities in the art world. And it's so interesting to me, when you look at the major museums and you look at articles on what are the inequities, inequities and who's represented, um, I'm sure you know, you know, the vast majority of museums, the artwork represents artists who are well-off white men. 

00:25:41:05 - 00:26:26:14

And you'll see stats on how few women of color are represented or women overall, but almost none of the studies on diversity share how many artists have disabilities. And different types of disabilities. So it's just striking to me like the the vast inequality in the art world that like, we don't even measure disability as part of diversity. And that's been a big focus of ours of at Harvard Business School during Disability Awareness Week, probably 2 or 3 years ago, we had a big event that was titled Disability as Diversity and had artists speaking there. 

00:26:26:20 - 00:26:43:25

So we really we feel like we're doing that at a grassroots level, but over time, we want to make big changes in the art world and have much more diversity. On who which artists are hanging in the Museum of Fine Arts or the other main museums. 

00:26:44:05 - 00:26:57:29

Why is it white men? I know this is a bigger answer than we have time to talk about right now, but is that just because of the society and where things originated from and patriarchy? And what led to all that? 

00:26:58:19 - 00:27:18:18

That's my understanding. To be totally transparent, I'm not an art historian, but, um, yeah, I was just of, you know, these museum collections are from hundreds and hundreds of years and looking at, you know, who had power over that time. I'm guessing that's the reason, but I'm no expert on. 

00:27:18:20 - 00:28:04:12

It, and I'm less of an expert than you are, so I don't know anything. So I do know about 3 or 4 months ago, I interviewed a friend of mine who runs a photography group called Women Photography Tours, and in preparation for that interview, I did some research. And as far as photography goes, the lop sidedness was mind blowing as to men and white men versus women. There were some stats, I can't remember any of them right now, but there were some stats about how the number of women graduating university with a degree in photography and fine arts was higher than the number of men graduating, but the actual number of women in practice was significantly lower. 

00:28:04:21 - 00:28:42:01

Yeah, I'd I'd have to look up to be quoted on this, but we do learn in clubs on our team. So similar to a book club, but we don't want to require everyone on the team to read a whole book. So we'll have different team members run it and have a max of 30 minutes prep time, whether it's watching Tedtalks or articles. And my colleague Bree led a learning club on diversity or lack of diversity within the art world. I'm pretty sure I'd have to double check this, but I'm pretty sure the stat was 89% of the top museums. 

00:28:42:07 - 00:28:48:20

The work was created by white men. Something completely, uh, mind blowing like that. 

00:28:49:03 - 00:29:13:18

It wouldn't wouldn't surprise me. Okay, so a couple things real quick. One is I end every one of my episodes with three questions. I don't think they apply to you at all, but let's do it. I think we're going to have just as much fun saying these don't apply. The first one is, what's your favorite photography genre to shoot and why doesn't apply. Okay. 

00:29:15:20 - 00:29:23:10

The second one is what camera system do you use? iPhone applies. 

00:29:25:18 - 00:29:35:12

And then the third could apply. It's how frequently do you get that burning itch. Just get out there and shoot photos on a scale of 1 to 10. 

00:29:36:25 - 00:29:37:12

Four. 

00:29:37:16 - 00:29:45:24

That's good. I've had photographers that were one. That's good. Hey, Liz, where can everybody find you and find ArtLifting? 

00:29:46:14 - 00:30:02:14

You can find ArtLifting at ArtLifting on any social media, and our websites are lifting and you can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Liz Powers, and if you put in Liz Powers ArtLifting, it'll come up. 

00:30:02:18 - 00:30:23:00

Liz Powers from ArtLifting. Thank you so much. What you do is so special and has so much impact and changes so many lives. Knowing you, being a friend for ten years now, watching where you started and seeing what you're doing now makes me really happy. And I can't wait to see in ten years what happens, but hopefully we'll be in touch before that. 

00:30:23:04 - 00:30:24:00

Definitely. 

00:30:24:29 - 00:30:39:18

Thank you so much for joining me for today's episode. Our next show will feature more valuable stories from our community members. If you'd like to audition to be a guest, please visit big Hunter for more information. Thanks again for listening today.