HIGHERORBIT
Recorded in the back of a legal retail Cannabis dispensary . Sean & Charlie Kady - owners, explore the Canadian cannabis market with Industry leaders, master growers, product innovators and experts in hash, extracts, beverages and a whole lot of weed.
HIGHERORBIT
Sheesh N' Chill - Jackie Mcaskill
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We're fortunate to have Jackie Mcaskill, the co-founder of Sheesh Sodas, as our special guest. Jackie, with her profound experiences from Unilever to LCBO, is a powerhouse in the industry. We embark on a fascinating exploration of her journey, discussing everything from her time spearheading the Axe body spray brand to intriguing statistics about cannabis and wine consumers. Our conversation also delves into the shared passion we have for the ever-evolving cannabis industry.
Our discussion takes an exciting turn as we dive into the compelling intricacies of the cannabis industry. We shed light on its similarities and differences with the alcohol industry and the challenges that come with product curation. An important part of our conversation also involves the necessity of customer satisfaction and feedback in improving products. Jackie teases her upcoming book, which explores the connections between cannabis and wine, further highlighting the potential of cannabis beverages in the market.
Our conversation wouldn't be complete without discussing the trials and victories of entrepreneurship in the beverage industry. Drawing from our experiences in the corporate world, we highlight the dynamics of a successful partnership. We wrap up with a lively debate on the origin of seeds and plants, followed by an open invitation to our listeners to engage with us through our hotline. If you have an interest in the cannabis industry, entrepreneurship, and the integration of diverse industries, this episode promises to be a thought-provoking listen.
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Or send us an email: info@higherorbit.ca.
Thank you for your unwavering support. We're excited to bring you even more awe-inspiring content in the near future.
Minus 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 8 inches. Start 4, 3, 2, 1. Good morning, I'm Sean and I'm Charlie, and this is Hire Orbit, like what I did there with the little pause. No, I don't know. I don't know, I was just trying something new. Today we got a morning episode. I'm still getting my coffee in me. We all just have hash makers and master growers on this show. We have a very special guest who's almost like a puppet master of one of our favorite brands and our very own sponsor of the show.
Speaker 2We've got Jackie McCaskill. Nailed it, nailed it.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2I take pride in saying names correctly.
Speaker 1I didn't want to butcher it, and I always butcher it, so that's why I tried to like lob it to you. That's what I did there. It was like a nice little.
Speaker 3You set up the spike. Yeah, you did.
Speaker 1But yeah, introducing Jackie part of our great sponsor team over at she's Soda Co-founder of she's Soda I don't know if I missed that, but yeah and kind of the puppet master behind that brand, which is you love that term?
Speaker 2I do. I have to say it, I just feel like it's a good one.
Speaker 1I would own that. I think it's cool.
Speaker 3But you don't like it. So is Matt the puppet.
Speaker 1Yeah, he's the puppet. He's the puppet, you know what I guess.
Speaker 2She's a behind the scenes ninja. Behind the scenes, ninja, there you go.
Speaker 1Yeah, whatever you prefer, yeah.
Speaker 3I'm open to ninja. I mean that's stealth and cool.
Speaker 2That's cool, there you go I like it, the gonja ninja. The gonja ninja, exactly. Why don't we get into I mean again very illustrious career from the looks of it? Canadian Tire, I'm just seeing that for the first time. We did talk briefly about your time at Unilever and it's pretty wild that you kind of spearheaded an axe body spray brand.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think anybody like our age owned a can axe at some point in their life.
Speaker 3Nice.
Speaker 1It's like a cultural phenomenon almost Nice.
Speaker 3I was lucky to be on that team as part of that team. It was an amazing experience.
Speaker 2You see a brand explode like that.
Speaker 3Yeah, and one that I really couldn't relate to. I was in innovation operations with the brand team on it. I remember they had an armpit as the symbol, like an actual physical armpit. Was the guy I was like I don't get it?
Speaker 2Yeah, I got it and it flew, all right.
Speaker 1So here you go. I even think, even to this day, emulated to and like that old spice. I felt like that came after you know that campaign. I was like I feel like I've seen these before and it really reminded me of Acid. I just had to say that I think that whatever emulation is the best form of flattery, as they say. That's right.
Speaker 2I definitely remember having a few cans of those, and nowadays, though, you kind of smell like who the fuck? Who sprayed that? Yeah, who sprayed it in the fucking change room? That's wrong with you. But yeah, moving on, I mean what else? You went on to have a wicked career, from my understanding, at the LCBO I did yeah, one of the largest wine procurers in the world. I'd love to just even chat wine with you sometime. Let's do it. You probably have a fast knowledge, and I was mentioning I do love wine as well and all the similarities that it has to weed.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, so many, so many 14% of consumers that smoke cannabis and drink wine do it together.
Speaker 1Oh, I didn't know that one. It's a great stat, it's a good overlap Okay. Love that Very cool.
Speaker 2Nope, you go first. No, I don't know, just continuing down this like impressive resume, just to like flex your ninja status. Oh my God, wow, I often do like to flatter people when they come on the show.
Speaker 3You're just telling everyone how old I am.
Speaker 2Maybe you're just a prodigy, you started young, I'm lustrious.
Speaker 3Okay, all right.
Speaker 2And then moved on to Time at Hexel. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3Yeah, I had a consulting company in between where I worked on beverages.
Speaker 2Oh okay, there you go. That's what we didn't know about A station coal brew.
Speaker 3We have a new one coming out.
Speaker 1I'm on fire today. I'm on fire. On fire, fire.
Speaker 3Fire, yeah, so I did some of that. And then, yeah, jumped over to cannabis and Hexo. It's where I landed.
Speaker 3Hexo, hexo and you met a good friend of ours, I believe I met. I'm going to tell you, I met the most amazing people and when I joined Hexo, as I was telling you before, my goal was to actually learn the cannabis industry. And it was in COVID and I said you know, I'm going to set up Zoom meetings with so many people that I know, from alcohol to cannabis, and through that I'm going to learn everything I need to know about cannabis. And I had four or five of those and I'm like this, this is not going to work. I need to go actually work in the industry. So, yeah, I landed at Hexo as the director product for pre-rolls, flower and then eventually edibles, and I met Todd Nolt and he worked with me and he's a good friend of this day. I love him.
Speaker 1He's a good friend of the shows. Yeah, yeah, shout out to Todd, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3I'm sure he's hoping to see us. Yeah, I'm sure he's listening. I'm sure he has yeah Episode two throwback so.
Speaker 1Todd I hope you're listening and you're dope and I keep doing what you do. He's the best. He's the best.
Speaker 3I met the most incredible human beings that are so passionate. Like you think I know there's passion in alcohol and wine and all of those things, but like I have never seen passion, it was like I have being in the cannabis industry and you can't help but be, I don't know Magnetize to it and engaged in learning. And now I'm passionate. I love it.
Speaker 1You have great energy. I love that, especially in like an industry that like is so like jaded. Sometimes I guess that's like, yes, she's been successful, so that helps too. But, like you know, like I think there's something to be said there, right, charlie? Like anyways, yeah, I just love your energy and your vibe and what you bring to the table, and I really gotta go to meet you and chat all things.
Speaker 3Me too. Thanks for inviting me, guys. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 2Super happy to have you yeah.
Speaker 1There's a new sheesh product coming out.
Speaker 3We talked about that at all. We talk a little bit about it.
Speaker 1I remember Matt was like, no, we can't talk, Not too much.
Speaker 3We can say there's a new product coming out.
Speaker 1Okay, cool.
Speaker 3And it's coming out. It was the second release for OCS, so I think it'll be in the market early, early February.
Speaker 2Okay that's exciting. Wait for 2024. Remember, she's a ninja, has to operate in the shadows, correct, correct.
Speaker 3Yeah, and it's named after a really well-known strain. Okay, it's a profile, a citrus profile that a lot of people love, and we we brought the best of the best into the development where we get our products made at University of Guelph, nsf, and I can tell you, hands down, we will do a blind taste test on the show. Amazing and I guarantee you're gonna be like whoa, this is it.
Speaker 2Can't wait to try that. Yeah, can't wait to try it. Can't wait to try it, yeah.
Speaker 1I still think you guys should go on the road and do something like the Pepsi challenge, the Sheesh challenge. I think it'd be a lot of fun. I was telling Matt that, but we'll make it happen someday.
Speaker 3I said the same word. The same words, word for word, what you said A hundred percent, that's what I said.
Speaker 1Maybe put a hairier jet in the background. No, I'm just joking.
Speaker 3Yes, Well, matt and I will get our backpacks on, go into the stores Like all right.
Speaker 2Just compare it with the top soda and shit on them, basically kind of yeah Well, that's exciting, so it's coming in February.
Speaker 1Not shit on them, but True to your profile, we're getting away from Kola. I can assume something like that. Something like that we're guessing who I am away from Kola, though. Anyways, Cool, we'll keep them guessing.
Speaker 3Yeah, it'll be good.
Speaker 1It'll be good.
Speaker 3Yeah, we have a great innovation pipeline planned, so we're excited to see that come to fruition.
Speaker 1No, I really respect keeping your cards close and as much as you want to talk about things, it's important to just play things correctly, right?
Speaker 3We're dying to yell it from the mountaintops. Hey, this is what we're doing, but we're just gonna wait a little bit longer. I think Matt wants to do a good social media campaign to really bring that out to light the right way. So yeah.
Speaker 2That's more like chess. You know, We'll be shouting it from the mountaintop too when the time comes, that's for sure.
Speaker 3The more showers, the better we appreciate it.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Just to run it back to, I guess, speaking on some of the work that you've done and again that experience with launching brands and having innovation pipelines, my understanding is you had something to do with the labeling over at AX for what this product doesn't substitute for your shower, so it's you that caused all the smelly locker rooms it wasn't me, I know when the product was out over time, we actually had complaints or feedback from consumers saying boys, young men are using this instead of showers.
Speaker 3They're like I'm good, I just put some AX on right. So there was a point where we had to consider a disclaimer or put a disclaimer that said this is not to replace a shower.
Speaker 2Oh, like legit it was okay.
Speaker 3Yeah, we were doing it.
Speaker 2I thought it was like a marketing thing, like yeah you don't need to shower.
Speaker 3It wasn't, it was a legitimate issue okay. Remember I said there's a brand that can't relate to, it's that one. But no the brand team, the primary brand team that worked on it. Like I was just fortunate to be part of it from an operational brand perspective. But I'm telling you guys, it was next level. It's just really cool. Every element and I remember the guy running it at the time was totally in that demographic. He was a very mature version of who should use AX and he just nailed it. So it was great.
Speaker 1I also have some fond memories. It reminds me of a story just trying to cover smoking weed with AX body spray, and you'd be like smoke with your friends, because it is that era for me. Maybe you too, charlie, do you remember that Pretty much. But I remember my mom basically being our teacher's being like dude. You smell like weed and AX body spray. You don't just smell like, you know what I mean, but it is a very potent odor. So I thought it was a good play, that's a great innovative product.
Speaker 3Oh my God, the spray that like that neutralizes weed odor.
Speaker 1maybe that's it.
Speaker 3that's it, yeah that's not a bad one. Yeah, that's a great idea. A more pleasant one, right? Yeah, anti-cush.
Speaker 1I like it. I think lavender works well.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, anyways.
Speaker 2I always liked the idea of smelling like kush in a perfume or a cologne, but I guess I would just you just smoke, You're good.
Speaker 3You can buy candles. I saw was it at Vika. No, yeah, that's great. Maybe somewhere in the Sillow District. I remember seeing candles. I thought that's cool.
Speaker 2We have something like that. It's actually pretty good. I can kind of swear by it.
Speaker 1Oh Okay, maddie boy, surprise, surprise.
Speaker 3Oh, my other half is here. Thank God, show and support and love. We'll bring them out on the next segment. Nice.
Speaker 1I guess just had everything.
Speaker 3Oh, a moment, he got a haircut, you look sharp, oh, sharp dress.
Speaker 1Man Just walked in. Sharp dress man Good morning. Have a coffee, but we'll get you in here.
Speaker 2Yeah, so is it safe to say, I guess I mean she's just more or less blowing up. Would you say that kind of just neck and neck in terms of, like, the expansion of each of those brands, or is that just like on another planet really?
Speaker 3I mean there's been a lot of brands over.
Speaker 2That you've worked on.
Comparing Industry Practices
Speaker 3Yeah, I want to say over my 10 year career, but it's a lot longer. I'm old, I'm old, let's own it. That have blown up, but I mean, sheesh is is tremendously special because it, you know, it still is a relatively new industry. I know to many of us are like man, it's been a lug since 2018. But the reality is that's new, you know, and when you don't have baseline data and history year over year to gauge from and you're developing product, that's tough. So it is different than anything else, like when you look at acts as a great example. When you look at that, like you know, leave her at the time. I think they still do own Calvin Klein fragrance, right. So I don't know this for a fact, but there was a point where I heard when I was there, that the finalists for those fragrances that didn't make the cut turned into acts Like that's good quality right, yeah.
Speaker 3I mean. But my point is they have a history of knowing, you know, fragrance, information and that consumer we don't to a degree, you know, we have a few years to pick from and a lot of really segregated choppy data. So the fact that we've been able to, I guess, cultivate something, I create a product that has hit so the market so well, you know, as a testament to what I would say, matt, knowing the consumer and me, bringing product innovation and collectively making it work, Fuck, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I also think you guys recently won the Beverage of the Year at the CanExpo.
Speaker 2I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1I had to just bring a girl up, so I knew you won something recently, but I do have to say we gave you the award first. Hey, the Beverage of the Year. Sorry, I was like.
Speaker 3Ever award.
Speaker 1Are we? I didn't know that.
Speaker 3There you go. We only have two.
Speaker 2That's awesome.
Speaker 1There you go, but you guys are our inaugural award.
Speaker 3I like we couldn't have been prouder. Like Matt texted me a phone, I was like holy when we got your award.
Speaker 2Pretty stoked. Who gets to keep it?
Speaker 3We're OK. So we have a pipe dream, because right now our company is Matt and I we work from wherever we work. So we have a pipe dream where we'll have a central location for Sheesh and we will have it there, but in the meantime Matt is housing it for us. Yeah, I think he has a beside his bed, but I'm not saying that. Good night, charlie.
Speaker 2That's looking hilarious. I guess you speak to it being a new industry, of course, and it's interesting because you often hear lots of people from like alcohol and Bev a lot of crossover in terms of careers. What kind of similarities are you seeing in terms of again having been on the inside of the LCBO and now working with the OCS?
Speaker 3So you're talking from an industry perspective or commodity.
Speaker 2Why don't we start as industry, and then we'll go commodity?
Speaker 3So industry? I certainly see the OCS utilizing a lot of LCBO infrastructure. So the way they're doing the product calls, I'm guessing, similar the way they purchase product. The thing I can't get my head around is they don't try the product In LCBO. For example, when I was a vintage as wine buyer, I mean we'd put a call out just like OCS, and say we'd say Spanish Reds and we're looking for this right at this price. We could get 2,000 submissions and through a process that would be dwindled down to about 100. And then we would taste all 100. There'd be multiple people in a blind tasting. And how do you identify what is a great product from a spreadsheet and a pitch deck? And it's a challenge for those buyers like kudos, because they've done a relatively great job in some respects picking without that.
Speaker 1It's purely data driven, 100%. That's all it is.
Speaker 2I was actually talking to the product all the time Later.
Speaker 1than yesterday we were at the OCS retailer summit.
Speaker 3Oh, I remember about that.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it just drove me crazy listening to the product manager and how they choose, how they curate. And it was just like but nobody tries anything and that's just like a disconnect for me and you're just confirming it now, and something that you've noticed from working in both industries, and so thanks for confirming it.
Speaker 3Oh, you're welcome. The hard part is, with wine we had to spit. There was a spittoon, right, right, and so even hundreds of dollars, bottles like bottles that are 5, 6, 100, we're still using a spittoon and that's obviously that's a harder thing to do with cannabis. So I just you know it's polarizing on one hand you should try it, or if someone try it and give some feedback, on the other, that person would be super high.
Speaker 1Right yeah. So, I think if they looked and even just smelt it and touched it, though, that would be a lot better. And maybe that is this spittoon halfway where you meet like open a bag, especially in flour, and like feel it and smell it, and I think, without even that would just be an improvement of purely data, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 3Yeah, 100%. And like gummies, like look at them smell them. Right, I don't know if you can chew it and spit it out.
Speaker 1But the cure is right, like they're not all globby and weird and like at least do that you could certainly spittoon a beverage right.
Speaker 3Yeah, you can 100%. Yeah, I mean it adds to the complexity of the call, for sure, and probably lead times on some of that, but yeah, so one synergy is that the way they're product calling and things. But I mean the biggest difference is that the OCS is also a retail online shop right and of course government runs stores. So differences and similarities exist?
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm curious too. Do you know off the top of your head like, for instance, you covered wine? How many skews did they have? Oh my God, 1,023. I mean, I would rotate all the time, right, that's a good question, yeah it does.
Speaker 3Well, when I was there we had so there's two. There was kind of at that point. It's changed. Now there were two wine divisions. There's your general purchase, which are the products there all the time, like think your yellow tail, barefoot, like your standards, and then vintages. And vintages had essentials which were similar, that they were there all the time, but then they had thousands and thousands of products that come in a note when there's like 100 or 200 cases available and you're just blowing it through Right.
Speaker 3So really, really high skew count. I was fortunate that I was. I worked in both of those divisions and it's just, you really get a feel for buying is an art and science and the OCS buyers are dealing with that same thing. Like there's a gut instinct, a commercial instinct that you just feel is right, and then the science of the numbers and the actual tasting. That married together and that's how you make your decision and, like you and I were talking about before the podcast, like we all buy dogs, all of us. I'm not gonna name my dogs, but I have a list.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3That was some wines I bought that I shouldn't have, but we all have. That's the life learning right To get better.
Speaker 1So yeah, that's true. I guess you're right. You do buy bottles of wine every once in a while at the LCBO too, just like you would buy a a not so great bag of weed from us, like you hate that, I guess.
Speaker 3Only our exit plan is different.
Speaker 1Yes, we talked about yours yeah.
Speaker 2That's actually a perfect lead up. I can't wait to answer it. We had a great question from one of our listeners, trevor the Can of Paddler. We'll answer it when we get back, but he asked if we ever buy dogs and what we do with it. Yeah, that's a good one. Great question. Well, we'll hit you up. We'll answer that. You want a rip tip, trevor. Thanks for the question and reminder that you can still win a rip tip.
Speaker 1We have a couple, so shoot us a question, kick it around and follow at higher orbit and at CosmicCharlie'sshop, and she will be right back.
Speaker 2Welcome back.
Speaker 1Good morning. Second coffees. I think it's a little early for Sheesh. I thought about it but I'm like, is it ever too early?
Speaker 3Sean, it's never too early for Sheesh.
Speaker 2We're here with Jackie McAskill, I'll do it. Maybe I'll do it the next one there you go.
Speaker 2There you go. Just to touch back off. We did have a great question from Trevor. I'm gonna read it as he mentioned it. We were talking about dogs with Jackie and how it's just an inevitable part of life. Question was great it's have any products been sampled by Charlie or Sean or staff and immediately put on clearance to clear out, or what was the oldest product that shows up in your order and you're now stuck with to sell? So definitely happens. Absolutely, trevor. I mean I can definitely list off a bunch.
Speaker 2I kind of had to dig deep just to remind us of, kind of some of those shit products we got. I would have to say it's pretty sad, because we were even talking about it too. We don't really get the chance either to sample stuff, so you're kind of you learn how to buy, who to trust? Do you have a bit of a gut feeling? You really kind of spoke to it well, jackie, and you bring in stuff and sometimes it's just awful and it can be expensive and it's also deteriorating. So like you get it bad quality and it just gets to be even worse, which is one of the big differences I would say between alcohol and like we're a consumer package. Good, but it's also kind of like produce in a sense, because it does deteriorate or have a shelf life. But I can at least remember, like off the top of my head there was at least five, and I don't know if we want to shred them too bad, but I have a list of maybe like 15.
Speaker 3And we can be pretty.
Speaker 1I have a list.
Speaker 2I have a list.
Speaker 1You're checking it twice without everybody.
Speaker 2Actually, we should just shred them. That's when I get the most fired up. You were speaking about how you worked at Hexo too. How long ago were they on the list. That one's notorious the Northern.
Speaker 1Berry, absolute trash Took us a long time to move it. We got a. It was old when it got here and then it took a really long time to move.
Speaker 2I remember me in one detail we hugged when he sold the last bag and we got pizza. Really fucking. We did get some food, yes.
Cannabis Industry Lessons and Challenges
Speaker 3Yeah, I have a little side story about up. I'll share out of school, please. When I entered into cannabis at Hexo I was learning about the brands and just before I joined they positioned we had positioned up as a premium threshold with a plus 20% THC promise. That meant every bag would have to do that. So I mean the good learning that is takeaway like you've got to be able to grow plus 20% to make that work longterm. So there's challenges, for sure. But Northern Berry was the crown gem, so the fact that you're shitting on that one is heartbreaking. But yeah, okay, I'll take it on the chin.
Speaker 2It's not your fault and again, I do tend to try to be careful because I know it is a plant and it's hard and I see growers who grow it and they have so much passion and love.
Speaker 3And then for me to just go. I think you're back meddling now. I think you're back. Oh, I stand by it.
Speaker 2It wasn't good. But again, I will answer the other half of this question and I also want to specifically say why and we do often well either, smoke bags of it to help kind of dwindle the inventory.
Speaker 3To help the sales. Help the sales, exactly. That's so good of you. You are good. Well, let's not try it. Let's not try it so that they know what's up you can sell it.
Speaker 2And then we often do reduce the price because we don't want our customers to feel like they got dogged. Smart yeah.
Speaker 1And so at least they know they're buying something that's really cheap, and they know it's usually. You know it's cheap for a reason. I would say it's on clearance. When I buy that, it doesn't meet our standard, right? Yeah, even when you go to the LCBO and you buy that clearance beer and you're like it looks weird, it's like the cranberry stout or whatever, right, and it's like ugh, it sounds gross. Yeah, that's what I mean.
Speaker 2And then there was a second part of the question and it's tricky because it's a little nuanced, because I think that what we consider old is strange in this industry. I mean, there are standards that the OCS follows. They can't send us something like a pre-roller bag of flour if it's nine months or older. But it does happen from time to time where we get something that was packaged like seven or eight months or like right on the cusp and you're like oh, what the fuck? But like that said, we've kind of learned that like four or five months isn't really that old. You know what I mean. But again, we'll open it, check on it, make sure it hasn't turned into dust and just make sure we do right by the customer, because that's the most important thing.
Speaker 3You should have a section of your store called Charlie's Dogs and mark them down and make it a destination.
Speaker 1Charlie's Doggies yeah, we'll come in.
Speaker 3No, look at it. Charlie thinks it's a dog, but I'm gonna get a great deal.
Speaker 2Yeah, I have nothing else. I've flirted with that idea for a while.
Speaker 1On that note, there's every so often when you have a, like you put a dog on a deal and you get that random person that just that product speaks to them. They come in and they buy it all I don't know, like the high buddy, like do you know what I mean? Like I don't know. I always thought that I've been in this industry a long time and I don't know. Someone's garbage is someone else's gold sometimes. It's funny, I don't know.
Speaker 3You nailed it Different strokes for different folks, for sure, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, definitely creative ways to do it. But yeah, I mean there's been some fallen soldiers.
Speaker 1I mean Sean, I've also just smacked it down, smoked it down, trying to think if there's anything else. That was terrible.
Speaker 3What do you guys do for your business so impressive?
Speaker 1It's hard work. Yeah, it's tough. It's been like. It's definitely a journey. It's like figuring out how, what to do with the dogs, what to how to pick your products, who to trust. Right For sure, there's a lot going on.
Speaker 3Well, I was just gonna ask you what you learned from that, from those dogs. What do you take away and go? Okay, here's what I'm gonna do next time as a result, like what you just said trust.
Speaker 1That's a big one. It is Reputation, right it is.
Speaker 2Certainly like you start to build up relationships with people too. So when you kind of run into trouble, you can reasonably so get a bit of help. And what that looks like might be like hey, I have this weed, it's not selling or it's straight up not good. How can you help me? Do you wanna do a pop-ups, and easy one? Come in and help us subsidize the sale. Do anything that like sparks sales. So thankfully we haven't had to do that too much and we try to just manage it our own way.
Speaker 3That's a great exit. A plan for it Like collaboration, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2You don't wanna like shit on people too bad.
Speaker 1Yeah, I find, as long as you're like polite about it and we're pretty good at being diplomatic, that like people are usually generally happy to hear the feedback, if that makes sense I don't know like most people are and you get the occasional outsider who's like outlier. I can think that like wants to argue with me about it, and then I have to be like no, you're wrong, come buy your product back. Thank you, but anyways, that's very rare, I would say.
Speaker 3I think, Matt, I might cry if you gave us feedback like your product shit, I think we might cry.
Speaker 2I don't think it would be possible. So yeah, we have no reason to say that.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1What sets you apart is the visionary in the cannabis. Cannabis sector. Jackie, I would say that, like what have you used in your, in those other industries that you brought over, you think there's been the most valuable to you.
Speaker 3I'm gonna say there's a surprising amount of synergies between wine and cannabis and specifically when you think about what a canister and connoisseur are looking for.
Speaker 3You know a connoisseur of wine is looking for a sense of place, time people. They're looking for provenance, like understanding where it came from, the history, the taste profile. And when you pivot that over to cannabis, it's shockingly the same. You know it has a stigma behind it that makes you have to kind of clear the air to see. But you know, when you look at sheesh, when Matt and I, when we first met through a mutual friend, we were talking and we were both in beverage and passionate and both love cannabis and we're looking to do something. And Matt just brings such a depth of consumer understanding and retail understanding of this market. And you know I bring a different aspect right with my history. So you know he's like I think there's a gap in the market for, you know, a cola in this price point and this kind of Thing. And I said I, this is where I brought the wine. I said I think Something with prominence like that, a strain specific to me, that's a single varietal right and Using strains.
Speaker 3Guys, I know this isn't a popular thing to say on the podcast, probably, but some of these strain names, jesus Christ, like you're never gonna see me do like white widow ever. I don't care if you say it is the best, I just like I'll be smoking. My friend will go what's that? Oh, I'm smoking white widow. Like it just not gonna work right. So we're we're careful about the strains we select. They have to be the right taste profile, terpene profile, all of those things but they also have to be something where you know we're proud to Repeat. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So we brought together, we brought those elements and Created it, created our baby, sheesh.
Speaker 1Yeah, and what a baby, it is.
Exploring Cannabis and Wine Connections
Speaker 2Yeah, we love it. You know, it's just kind of popped in my head and I wonder if you ever tried it. There was a, just because it was a little more deluxe, more premium. It was the regal grape sparkler. Oh, that was good imported fruit juice. It was really good. I just think again in terms of, like, more refined palate, more it almost had like a dry, more of a cidery type of eye, but like just being elevated, being more mouthfeely Wasn't trained specific.
Speaker 3There was two skews right. I think I tried. There's two. I think I tried that at a trade show.
Speaker 2I was.
Speaker 3I loved it. I thought it tasted great it tasted, yeah.
Speaker 2And then there was another one, and he wasn't around very long, but it was a low dose. Which one was that? Sean the white one.
Speaker 1Oh White, one white, can you know talking about.
Speaker 2It was kind of like a more.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, exactly, you Vava, you Vava that. Yeah, the pear thing. Yeah, it was more, that was like after a sparkling wine. Yeah, it was supposed to be like a sparkling grape. Listen.
Speaker 3I tried that too.
Speaker 3I love that it was the reality, though, in in looking at the numbers and I mean Matt's had to like Corrective course action me a few times on this I I tend to look at numbers in, you know, alcohol and in Non-controlled substances and think that those trends and those numbers should apply to cannabis beverages. It is super clear to me they don't, and my own analysis, which is that's very specialized category management, deep dives and it it doesn't like the way sugar is interpreted in this industry versus outside, the way the potency, like people aren't buying coolers in alcohol because it has a high THC, they're just not a high alcohol. They're not like, oh, this one's 20% and buying it, they're buying five, they're buying lower, in fact, right, so you can't always, you know, assume that those trends are gonna turn out here, and so I don't think the consumers ready for that wine Knock off right now, yeah, or that wine integration.
Speaker 2We need to mature out a little bit soon.
Speaker 3I could see that in a couple years. It's not now. Trust me, do I have concepts and ideas for that? You can't even fathom. I'm a whole brand ready that would be, really wait for it, but but we're just, we're not.
Speaker 2We're not there yet. Yeah, no, it makes sense slow growth.
Speaker 1You know that would be like if you could do like more than 10 milligrams. I thought that was funny that we got like we can buy more than, like you know, three or four drinks now because of the volume limit, mm-hmm, but we still can't buy like a six pack of sheesh because that would be 60 milligrams or whatever. So I guess the big step forward would be that like uncap on the 10 milligrams, right, and that would really open up a lot of things from ever just I think too.
Speaker 1I would you know, and you could have a bigger bottle format with more in it to share. Sharing for me, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 3To me it's. It's still about education. There's still that, an education that's targeted to the right consumer, not just broad strokes. Right, like I was talking a little bit about the education I'm working on through getting wine consumers to understand cannabis, it's, it's. It's absolutely astounding to me when, typically, I would have a wine night At my house and I still do. I have.
Speaker 3It will never replace wine completely in my life, but there's nights, it's can cannabis drinks and specifically, sheesh, and how I get people in the wine. I'd like they look at the can, as I said, and they're like, oh, hash, is that even legal hash? But I'm like, oh, my god, there's so much work we need to do, right, and then, beyond that, how I hook them and how I get them to really engage in this conversation, is, I say, our Our? Actually, our cherry juice is from cherry Lane in Vineland, which is a wine growing region. Oh, I know cherry Lane. Yeah, we use real juice. And then you know a single strain which is, you know, our cherry mac is the same as a single varietal. Oh, okay, like you got to speak that language to talk to that consumer so they get it. And that's the bigger opportunity once more people understand than the product to meet their needs can be created Right, but until that, I think you know it's a pause.
Speaker 2I would agree still lots of work to be done. I love that comparison. Can you share a little bit about the project that you're working on, or almost?
Speaker 3almost completed. Yeah, I finished the manuscript. So when I was at Hexo and I was learning, like absorbing everything I could about cannabis, I mean actually I made a commitment it would be six months to my partner because we don't have a life that's conducive to me working corporately full-time all the time, and I ended up staying a year because I loved it so much. It was learning so much from guys like Todd right, todd, and the project that I'm working on actually stems from all the information I was getting. I was comparing and contrasting to wine. So I wrote a book and I have a Canadian publisher in Genium that's coming out next spring and it's called chill the wine lovers guide to understanding cannabis.
Speaker 1That's amazing.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I talk about them as cousins, like Venus Venifera is the wine grape right and cannabis and a little bit just for the history chapter. And I talk about, you know, ones recovering from a bad stint in jail and Working on a reputation. You know I have advertisements of the Pope promoting a wine in the 1800s.
Speaker 2Wow right.
Speaker 3I said like look at the and then the difference and it's crazy. So my goal in that is to really empower and educate wine consumers. It's not to, you know, convince them cannabis is better and you should try cannabis. But please understand the basics, see the possible advantages to your life and just be knowledgeable and informed, because even if you choose not to do it, I guarantee that it will alter your stigma towards people that do right and it could benefit your life in a great way. So that's the premise.
Speaker 2I love it. I can't wait to pick up a cop really cool perspective.
Speaker 1I can't great to grab a copy, yeah. I can't see it be awesome. I'm really excited about that awesome.
Speaker 3I'm trying to get it out from Mother's Day. It's a great Mother's Day gift.
Speaker 2I think so that one mother in your life for sure. Yeah, I mean, we still see it all all the time, just having that firsthand contact with people in the store or what have you it's. It's still pretty strong kind of a stigma and it's yeah, I can think of a better comparison really do you get the side eye?
Speaker 3I get, because when my wine friends and I'm holding the sheesh, I get a side eye.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, I was mentioning yeah, definitely like people look oh, terpenes, and this and the wall weeds the same.
Speaker 3I'm like you know where you hook them. There's Many of the wines have the same terpenes. Oh.
Speaker 1Oh.
Speaker 3I mean, is in some in Yambolanc and it's in lemon haze like there's. There's some great synergies.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think so. I think it's more so too. Sometimes people with wine get a little snooty and just want to sound like Never. I mean, it happens in this industry too, with people's weed, so we got to be careful about that. But I don't want that same Level of I, like you, can't smoke Hexo northern berry.
Speaker 3Have you ever talked to a legacy grower? Long-term legacy grower. Yeah, yeah, we'll tell you what's what in a heartbeat. In their own way, it's not snooty, but they'll, they'll tell you what's what.
Entrepreneurship in the Beverage Industry
Speaker 2yeah, yeah, it's okay to have opinions. Yeah, it's interesting to it, picked up on something you said there. So your partner, your life isn't conducive to working the corporate life anymore. How have you found balancing Entrepreneurship, because I feel like that's probably like equally as yeah, all the time, yeah, yeah, it's you know.
Speaker 3My crew has been interesting, right. Big corporations can a tire LCBO, unilever, and then on the flip side consulting An equity partner and a couple non alcohol cannabis businesses, and so I've been an entrepreneur in that respect. And then this with Matt has been Amazing. So you know it is a transition, but I think the roles I've had at those corporations always allowed me to bring an entrepreneurial spirit to them. Category management is, like I said, that art, component of the art and science is my passion, right? So yeah, I think adjusting to Entrepreneurship can be really difficult but I thrive, I love it. I miss people like I think sometimes I come at just to call Matt and he's like what's up? And I'm like as your day, like I, you know I miss that, that group infrastructure, but yeah, aside from that, it's awesome and it works for my life amazing.
Speaker 1Nailed it. Yeah, I guess I Guess I should have a she, I think so. Just a reminder. You got to do the upside down and like tip it back up, right Is that the move Can?
Speaker 3yeah, there's a little move right, there's a real juice you want to make sure it's evenly distributed.
Speaker 1Yeah, oh, one second.
Speaker 3I was gonna ask you to share that camp, but not now. I.
Speaker 1Didn't think about it. We'll open another one. We'll be right back with Jackie McAskill. I always kill everybody's name, sorry, jackie from. She's so nice. I Welcome back everybody back to the shop, jackie, she so does. I got a great question for you. How did you meet Matt?
Speaker 3Our mutual friend Mitch Stern from station Colbert back in the day. He's one of my favorite humans and one of Matt's, and he for a while. He's like. You got to meet this guy, matt. You guys have so much in common and I guess the other side he was doing the same thing, so we had an epic meeting and, honestly, so you wouldn't be a better partnership.
Speaker 1Yeah, you were coffee. You're in the coffee biz before not really.
Speaker 3Yeah, I did some consulting and I have a small ownership stick and I had that in a station.
Speaker 2So that's how yeah, love that stuff. Just on that topic, it just popped into my head Is it harder to make like an emulsified still beverage, because I feel like Coffee is a home run, but there was a fizzy coffee and it was can a Joe, I remember.
Speaker 3I say they are out of the bus. It was not awful.
Speaker 1It was really gross. I don't ever tried that, but it was not good. Yeah, I mean worse when I've tried to market. I'm gonna just say it, it was the worst drink I've ever tried.
Speaker 2I actually sick.
Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah it makes me think of those mudslides. The alcohol wins.
Speaker 1Nairly they had one that was like a latte and one that was like an espresso thing, and they were both just gross. And then the latte one was like it had oat beverage and it was still at pervescent.
Speaker 2Honestly, you got to stop talking. I'm gonna lose the, the banana bread or whatever that was so funny.
Speaker 1Sorry so bad.
Speaker 2All right, I'm sorry, is it harder to make like a, not like a, still beverage because you don't see that many to be honest.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean Carbonation hides imperfections, right. So it's that. And sometimes, depending what you're mix on, the emulsification really has to be stabilized, otherwise you get separation. I mean there's some things. Everything has their own challenges, but I'd say, in my opinion, it would be a little harder.
Speaker 2Yeah interesting, and there's also a rule about Caffeine and the product.
Speaker 3Well, yeah, alcohol and cannabis have a 30 milligram max. Okay, caffeine and yeah did she have caffeine, not currently. No, okay.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was just curious. It's something popped in my head. I was like I don't know. Yeah, there's a cola cola tends.
Speaker 2Yeah, sometimes does minor amounts for it. Yeah, doesn't need it still great, oh amazing, how'd you even come up with that Nate?
Speaker 3actually, I can't take any credit for that. In fact, we were, oh man. So I reached out to a couple people I knew that owned small agencies and things.
Speaker 3I said, how much would it be to do a brand packing? Give us some. And I was getting like 70,000, a friendship deal. I'm like what? And I said, matt, we're gonna have to figure this out right. And Little did I know that not only is Matt, you know, brilliant at understanding the cannabis consumer, he's also a creative genius.
Speaker 3It is like he came up with some names and when he said she, I like Kai Basta, right away, I'm like no, stupid, like that's the kid going. She, right, like I'm like no way, I'm not doing that right. And and then he circled back. He goes, listen, I really need you to reprocess that. And I'm like okay. And then I did. And we just we roll. Like the amount of times Matt and I take separate Positions on so many things and I think we do that because we're a group of two and we have to really turn all the rocks and Stones to make sure we've looked at it from every angle and we always seem to come out with a decision we both agree with. That were like it's right, and Definitely he nailed this. This was his ideation on the name and I love it now. So very few people can get me to change my mind. He's really good at it.
Speaker 2That's a good, good working relationship. It's important to kind of have those two different views and then you battle through.
Speaker 3It seems like you and I think we take Oppositional perspective sometimes just to do that, to make sure we really run through everything. Team of two you gotta do.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm glad you came around, because I can't imagine being anything else. So there you go. I don't know.
Speaker 2Hmm, how'd you land on cherry cola, kind of being the first way?
Speaker 3well, we looked at what was strong in the market, what we thought trending flavors were. We had a couple actually in the hopper out of the beginning and Cherry just edged it out. We just felt like the brand was gonna be nostalgic, 80s vibe, that whole you know, soda jerk kind of thing, and and the cherry cola fit the bill and when we tried the formulation and everything it was a no-brainer.
Speaker 1It's a home run. How do you Ensure consistency and quality and like the input of the rosin, like what is like? What are, like the checkboxes you guys look for? I guess?
Speaker 3Well, we source the original cannabis from really reputable growers great starts like it completely does. I don't know if I told you, but I mean he even went to the, the facility where they grow some of our cannabis, to be part of that and has some video and he's done a great job. So really filtering to make sure that we are getting the absolute best growers, the absolute best cannabis input, and then working with industry leaders to transition that into the rosin. Wow and it, guys, the truthfully comes down to partnerships.
Speaker 3Yeah partnerships with our co-packer, our rosin producer, our everything top-notch and that it's important.
Speaker 1Yeah, I feel like it's so important. When you're going through those, those motions and trying to figure out who you want to team up with, there's always like options out there and just what's the right fit for you and what you're trying to do in your brand. Right so 100%.
Speaker 2Yeah, I guess quickly to spin off that, it something that came to mind. I know we're trying to get sheesh out and to other markets, of course a little different how they operate, and I could be mixing up my you know brain here a little bit. But I think, like for instance in BC, does it have to be produced there?
Speaker 3No, it doesn't okay, but it's seeming like to get a listing there.
Speaker 2You might have to right, so the station BC might be a little different.
Speaker 3Well, our next beverage that you know the Voldemort, we're not going to say his name. Yeah, that cannabis. The bet is being sourced from BC. Okay, awesome, it is BC grown.
Speaker 2You make it undeniable for them. Yeah, yeah and we're again.
Speaker 3We're looking for the best, like sheesh is based on three founding principles, and those principles everything from how Matt and I interact with one another, the type of people we are, the partners that we have, like you guys all have to check those boxes and and those boxes are Quality at every single touch point, everything, the people we work with, the ingredients we use, the co-manufacturer, everything right, relevant Innovation. So not innovation just because we're gonna do another flavor of the same shit, right? Or we're gonna do, you know not that. It has to be relevant to the consumer and really mean a need for real right. So we've got quality, we've got innovation and and the biggest one in my mind is transparency, and that is authenticity. So we can tell you where the plant was grown, we can tell you where our juice was sourced. You know everything we're doing is based on that right quality, transparency and relevant innovation, and we couldn't have a better partnership. When we think of that is exactly what you're doing here.
Speaker 1Thanks so much for saying that, jackie. Yeah, and the devil's in the details. So I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, when you say you have a big Idea or a plan, you want to bring it to fruition. It's like you really got to make sure you have everything figured out, and you guys definitely, definitely do so, totally thank you With respect to, I would say, most cannabis products.
Speaker 2As far as I know, it seems like a lot of people tend to forget to give good feedback. Do you find you're getting lots of good feedback or have you gotten any bad feedback either, like how do you incorporate that?
Speaker 3Yeah, I, I got to be honest it. It is absolutely crazy, I'm gonna say, and this is no exaggeration, I think I have only ever heard One slightly negative piece and these, and I don't tell, like I'm not the face of the brand, right, so a lot of people that I'm introducing it to, even friends of mine, don't even really know what I'm doing or the brand. So I'm saying try this right and and I mean I Was that, oh, it's carbonation.
Speaker 3It's like a slight carbon, they said they said could you do a higher carbonation? Unfortunately Our manufacturing facility cannot. We you know. But that's the one piece of feedback we've received.
Speaker 1That's funny, I like. I like that it's not as carbonated, because I find that I, I find you, can taste the cherry juice more and I can taste the cannabis a little more because it's not as that Provescent to.
Speaker 3but that's my take well, a lot of people think low carbonated product is also more sessionable. I mean, you can drink more consecutively without that Correct yeah. Yeah. So you know, maybe, like like we said earlier, different strokes for different folks, yeah.
Speaker 2I tend to like a like a pretty fizzy drink, but I think it it lends well just to the beverage itself being like a more natural, like it doesn't really have like the sickly sweet can of your average Coca-Cola, vibe or Pepsi. I would say for me is a little more sickly sweet, you know. I mean like it kind of just tastes. Yeah, I don't know, it's a little more natural.
Speaker 3You got to think about it. Right Like there's, you know there's. We don't list it, but in the other flavors there's cinnamon in there, there's ginger beer in there, there's. You know what I mean? It's we didn't just pay attention to the. Again, one of those pegs is quality. It's not just about the quality rosin, it's about the rest of the drink also delivering, because how much of that can is the rest of the drink?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah 94% yeah, so you got to pay attention. Yeah, right, yeah, those little details absolutely Um 31 awards.
Speaker 1We said the awards. Yeah, you guys, we're excited, I guess, to get you. Maybe, I guess, no, I guess what? Next year's awards? When did one of the awards close? They close on April, so we'll get. Definitely, I guess we'll be accepting your next release as a submission.
Speaker 3I don't know where I was going with that Excellent.
Speaker 1Funny thought I had and I couldn't articulate it properly. Whatever, I'll own it.
Speaker 3You know, I love that. Yeah, you know but we'll be submitting. Well, yeah.
Speaker 1She's so did, but anyways yeah we did talk about.
Speaker 2You know, the next big thing, kind of being he, who, they, who shall not be named. Do you think in the brand, and again, maybe, as maturity happens, would you ever expand categories? We're gonna stick to beverages. Any big plans in that regard that you could sure?
Speaker 3um, I you know, I think a mistake a lot of companies do is they innovate outside of their wheelhouse too quickly. So, although Matt and I are innovation product expert, like that's what we do and Do we have a plan? Yes, at some point, right, but I can tell you we want to make sure we get the beverage Category right and our portfolio right before looking and putting our eyes somewhere else.
Speaker 1No need to rush in anything. Yeah, that makes sense. I totally agree.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, we do see that happen, I think, in the market, and it's kind of confusing and usually not very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3Put your aces in your places. Our ace is beverage right now. Maybe we get enough learning. A lot of expertise, brand equity that makes sense to Just step out into it, you know this is in your places.
Speaker 1I've never heard that before. I really like it.
Speaker 3Oh yeah.
Speaker 2Definitely one, jackie's on card player yeah, I do like it. Yeah, I'm gonna use that you can ever son. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1I am Housekeeping Awards, oh, or rip tips, oh, rip tips, yeah, we still need questions. If you got a question for Jackie or me or Charlie, you know, send it in to Sean at higher orbit. Or Charlie at higher orbit, dot com to the CA, yeah, or she's, you know, send a question in. Why don't we do? Why don't we call the hotline? What? What is the hotline number? Again, yeah, for people that don't know.
Speaker 2It's 1877, no no 1833 potline okay 1833 potline. Give him a ring.
Speaker 3There's something you don't know about it we actually have.
Speaker 2Other end of that one.
Speaker 3Zero and tell us about it. Matter of fact, tell us whatever, just hash it out. You might end up on our Instagram.
Speaker 2Oh, it does that every time. I thought, it was a good one. How many times we called that? And we still fuck it up on.
Speaker 1Every time I forget about the pause.
Speaker 3I don't know why, but that's okay guys, it's your opportunity to ask those deep questions, because there are brilliant people that are gonna answer that yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna name them like is it the seed or plant that came first, right is it?
Speaker 1See Plant. Had to be the plant to me had to be the plan to make the seed right. I'm with you.
Speaker 2That's, yeah, that's still fucks me up I.
Speaker 3Can see you're in deep thought about it. So that's, these are the kind of questions you should ask the potline.
Speaker 1Oh, that's good. We should ask more thought-provoking questions on the podcast. Really, what is the meaning of life?
Speaker 3No, here's one I said to my daughter. She's like I said. I always say life isn't fair and she goes well, life isn't fair for everyone. Doesn't that mean it's fair? And I'm like silence.
Speaker 1Holy shit yeah 14 damn man.
Speaker 2I like that because I flipped my mind on that. I think life is perfectly fair oh.
Speaker 1Yeah, I look forward to the day my son says something like that to me. That's crazy.
Speaker 3Yeah, don't look forward to it. You have this silent ignorance.
Speaker 2That was a great rebuttal by your daughter, I guess I feel like ah.
Speaker 1Totally just seems like so far from now, but I know it'll come so quick. You know you just have one kid.
Speaker 3I do one amazing kid. That's a wonderful wife who's in the wine industry. Fantastic yeah.
Life in Toronto, Stony Creek
Speaker 1Let's go to always like to talk a little bit. I hit you up with the personal life, why not? You always live in Toronto, oh, my goodness no it is not not before.
Speaker 3I always live there. I grew up in a small town actually called Hanover. Okay which is about three hours two and a half hours from here, and then I started my career and lived in Toronto for about 22 years. Okay beaches area and then, yeah, now I'm in Stony Creek which sometimes I call stoner Creek, just Tony On the water, and I just love it it's nice out there.
Speaker 1I like Stony Creek, yeah, like it's kind of caught on water down too. It's all kind of a nice area.
Speaker 3I love it. Yeah, I love being in between accessible to Toronto easy-peasy, and to, you know, the wine region and nature, wine region Totally, and stoner Creek, why not?
Speaker 1It makes sense to me. There are quite a few dispensaries there, I believe. There are yeah, anything else with she soda. That's it. Follow a cheese, follow a cheese. What is it at she?
Speaker 3She so does she so does.
Speaker 1That's it as simple as it is.
Speaker 2Yeah, she so does. Shoot them a question, call their hotline, give us a like, follow or share it with the front they come by she soda at College of Charlie's at H1 Queens Street West.
Speaker 1Of course, don't forget.
Speaker 3Thanks for having me, guys, thanks oh.
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