Recruitment and Beyond
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Recruitment and Beyond
Preventing Employee Burnout | Season 2 - Episode 2 | Recruitment and Beyond Podcast
In this episode of Recruitment and Beyond, Ewan is joined by Lisa Thompson, the Chief People Officer at Clear Sky Logic and former founder of Purpose HR. With extensive experience in HR consultancy, particularly in the tech and life sciences sectors, Lisa brings invaluable insights into the rising issue of employee burnout.
Burnout is no longer just a buzzword – it’s a critical issue that affects not only individual well-being but also business productivity. In this conversation, Lisa discusses the importance of recognising burnout early and implementing strategies that help businesses support their teams, allowing them to flourish even in challenging times. From the blurred boundaries between work and home life, especially in the post-pandemic era, to the impact of constant connectivity through technology, Lisa provides a comprehensive overview of what causes burnout and how HR professionals can combat it.
Through practical strategies such as promoting open communication, setting clear expectations, and creating environments where employees feel empowered to prioritise their well-being, Lisa emphasises the need for proactive leadership. She explains how establishing boundaries and leading by example can help prevent burnout before it becomes a significant issue. Lisa also shares lessons learned from her consultancy days, offering advice on implementing these strategies effectively.
Whether you’re a business leader, HR professional, or someone navigating the challenges of managing employee wellness, this episode offers key takeaways on how to foster a healthy, productive workplace that supports both individual and organisational success. Tune in to discover how to recognise the signs of burnout, avoid overloading top performers, and set a framework for employee wellbeing that leads to long-term sustainability.
Find out more about - Lisa Thomson
Lisa recently joined ClearSky Logic as Chief People Officer. She previously founded Purpose HR, a niche HR consultancy focused on the technology and life sciences sectors, which she sold to the AAB Group in 2021. Following the acquisition, Lisa continued to lead Purpose HR as CEO and operated as a Partner and member of the AAB Leadership team until August 2023, when she exited following an earnout period.
She has achieved Chartered membership of the CIPD, is an experienced executive coach and NLP practitioner, is a Scotland CanB certified Impact Coach, and is an alumni of the Saltire Fellowship programme.
Lisa is a proud Ambassador for Women's Enterprise Scotland, championing women in business and is also a Board member of Entrepreneurial Scotland, FirstPort and Prosper (formerly Scottish Council for Development and Industry, and a mentor for Codebase, the UK's largest technology incubator.
A mum of 3 (2 girls aged 12 and 7 and a boy aged 1), Lisa lives in North Berwick East Lothian and, in her spare time, enjoys reading, cooking, wild swimming and walking her cocker spaniel Lola.
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Hi and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name is Ewan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry-leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Today we're chatting with Lisa Thompson. Lisa recently joined ClearSky Logic as their Chief People Officer. She previously founded Purpose HR, a niche HR consultancy focusing on technology and the life sciences sectors, which she sold to the AAB Group in 2021. We talked about preventing employee burnout and how to support your team to flourish, even in the toughest of times. Hi and welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Today we are joined by Lisa Thompson and we've got the topic of how to avoid burnout. Really looking forward to this actually. There's lots of discussion around this. Things have obviously changed quite a bit over the last few years and employee burnout is such an important topic for HR teams and companies right across the country. So Lisa, welcome along.
SPEAKER_02:Hi, nice to see
SPEAKER_00:you. Great to have you here. So Lisa, do you want to tell us a little bit about where you are just now, what sort of role you're doing now, and then we can get into some of the discussion around employee burnout.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. So I like to think of myself as a recovering HR entrepreneur. I sold my last business, which was an HR consulting business, providing outsourced HR support to mainly tech and also life sciences and high growth startup businesses. I grew that business to a team of 22 people and we had a turnover of a million. And I sold that coming up three years ago now, exited it two years ago. and now what I do is I sit on a few different boards as a non-exec director and I'm also doing bits and pieces of fractional HR consulting and so working with you know quite selectively with really interesting and exciting businesses where I can help them develop their people and HR strategies and so yeah it's a good place to be.
SPEAKER_00:Good and how is recovery?
SPEAKER_02:In progress!
SPEAKER_00:Ah, yes, quite good. That's good. And so what is it about the HR function, just out of interest, what sort of things that makes you passionate? What floats your boat now?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think I've always been so excited about HR or people as an enabling function. I've always so much enjoyed working with really exciting technical or scientific businesses, people doing really clever, amazing things that I couldn't personally do myself. But obviously to do that at scale and to grow their teams they need that support around the people functioning in the HR and good teamwork. And that's something that I've been able to help with. So being able to kind of enable that and bring in maybe softer skills or complementary skills to help founders in that space, I've always loved it. And I just really get excited about people developing to their full potential and basically how much impact that can make to a business and the difference between success and failure, really. I think people are so key, as you know,
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I know. Absolutely. And it's something we talk about a lot. And actually, we've talked, we've discussed it ourselves is that culture side of things. And interestingly, the softer skills that are coming in and becoming more important as technical, I suppose, technical skills change, particularly in a tech business, you know, the soft skills are so important now, aren't they?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and even the word soft, you know, it's not, they're not actually that soft, are
SPEAKER_00:they? It's not a great term, is it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but I mean, they're so essential, aren't they? It's like emotional intelligence, EQ, you know, how do we interact with people? How do we get the best out of each other? You know, developing people to their potential, especially if, you know, if you're a business that's based on innovation or the knowledge of your people, the skills of your people is so essential.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And the innovation part of it only comes out when people feel comfortable where they are and what they're doing. So no, absolutely, absolutely. So obviously we're going to talk about employee burnout today and it's something I know you're really passionate about and it's something that we've seen potentially on the rise over the last week well. And I know there's a lot of, not fixes, but things that are coming out there to try and help businesses and to try and help deal with that. But I suppose I wanted to just... really understand and to define what that means and what it means to you, I guess. So what is employee burnout?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I think when we talk about burnout, as I understand it, it's not a medically recognised term. It's not, you know, a condition that can be diagnosed with, but it's basically becoming much, much more recognised and understood. And it's very much a chronic condition where essentially, you know, somebody has become to the point of emotional, mental and even physical breakdown, where they're basically... due to workplace stress, no longer able to function well. And generally that tends to be over a long period of time
SPEAKER_01:that
SPEAKER_02:that will develop. But yeah, it's really much where they're overwhelmed, fatigued, and no longer able to deliver at their potential. And it's a real problem for businesses, but also just for society as a whole in terms of our contribution and for people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I was chatting to someone today and do you think it's, do you think it's a British thing? Do you think it's a global thing? Is it a, you know, in that strive for productivity, is it that we were pushing people too hard or, you know, they're too spread because, you know, we're trying to get as much out of people as we possibly can? Is it that or is it that people are taking on a lot because they want to keep their job out? You know, what do you think is driving that burnout? Yeah, that's
SPEAKER_02:a really good question. I mean, I think it has been something that's been a lot more, prevalent in terms of people talking about it anyway, since COVID. And I guess what I would say is that since then, there's been so much blurring of the boundaries in terms of home and work life and people almost taking on so much more. And also what we're seeing as well is obviously the progression of technology. You know, there's always been, you know, emails on your phone or blackberries or going back. I remember the blackberry. Yeah, I mean, it obviously has moved on. But we're at this point where the lines are so blurred. you know, and we're never really able to switch off. Particularly, you know, globalization as well. So often people are working with, you know, different time zones. So, you know, the nine to five doesn't necessarily exist anymore. We're always on, we're always kind of available. Technology is in our pocket. So, you know, it's very hard and, you know, social media as well is actually becoming part of work. So a lot of people are, you know, working through different mediums, not just email anymore. And so it becomes like really prevalent that we actually actually just feel that we have to be always available and always on. I think that's a really, really big factor of it. And I think, you know, also people are a lot more open now, better mental health. So it might have been before that we just didn't really talk about it and we struggled, but we just sort of, you know, kept that to ourselves and didn't open up, which in itself is not a good thing. You know, it's a really bad thing. But I do think now we're a bit more open and visible about that. So that's a good thing in itself, as long as we can then act on it. and support it. But I do think that also, you know, even since COVID, so I said, you know, I think it's been a bigger thing since COVID, we're now going back to the office. It doesn't, you know, so we're now adding on commutes and challenges and juggles and childcare challenges and all these other things. And we've not necessarily reduced workloads. So that's another challenge. And then what we're seeing as well is that businesses, particularly with the current economic climate and things like that, a lot of businesses are trying to do less with more. So the pressure on people is just growing as well. So I wouldn't really point to one factor and to go to your question, is it local, is it global? I think it's probably global. My view on it is probably fixed to the UK environment and what I see here. I can imagine that I can't say that it's different in other areas either. Did
SPEAKER_00:you see it as something that was growing when you were obviously as part of your consultancy? Did you have more and more HR teams coming to you and speaking to you about it?
SPEAKER_02:So when we were growing our consultancy, in particular, during COVID was a massive growth period for us.
SPEAKER_01:So
SPEAKER_02:my team were actually doing more because we were working with lots and lots of different clients. In a way, because we were all at home, and we were able to juggle a lot more things because we weren't on one client, focusing on one client at a time. We were able to juggle a lot more. actually we were probably more productive but if you think of that in terms of stressors yeah that was a lot because my team were all having like multiple different clients contacting them at different times and each of those clients individually their own teams were struggling with a lot of challenges and hr is often seen as the solution the go-to person so hr teams themselves were getting really burnt out, and it was a big challenge. And so, yeah, that was a big thing. We did a lot in COVID to try and put strategies in place, which we can talk about afterwards in a later question. But we were also trying to then help our clients as well as help ourselves. And there's this whole thing, isn't there, of like, what is it, put on your oxygen mask first? Yeah, yeah, that's true. You can't really help people if you're not And leading from the front in terms of looking after yourself. And I'm a big believer in that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that is absolutely critical as you've got to make sure that the team, the leadership team, whoever is leading from the front in a lot of this, you know, particularly around, you know, diverse inclusion is one of those areas where people need to lead from the front, but so is that leadership. that looking after, dealing with, supporting your team, you know, that's so important. It comes from a leadership point of view. I mean, you know, you're going to help your team, but as a leader, you need to make sure you're implementing a lot of these strategies. You're living, almost living that brand, aren't you? You're living that experience because, you know, you've got to make sure that people feel it's accepted to talk about it. I mean, I think you touched on it there, actually. More and more people are talking about it. So whether there's more of it or not, I think it's the case that more and more people are talking about it and businesses feel more open to talk about this sort of stuff now it's not seen as um if i talk about this i'm going to be out of a job i don't think there's that fear anymore is there
SPEAKER_02:i would hope
SPEAKER_00:not no well
SPEAKER_02:yeah that fear you know that's that's a cultural issue
SPEAKER_00:yeah
SPEAKER_02:yeah in itself um I think we've also seen, I don't want to go into specifics, but I do think, you know, in the press and in the news, we've seen some awful examples of what can happen, you know, when things spiral and people don't talk about it. And then we hear awful stories about people that we thought were fine, you know, and weren't.
SPEAKER_01:And do
SPEAKER_00:you think it's really difficult? Do you think it's the, I mean, technology has obviously had an impact, right? And obviously it's that continually on, but I know a lot of businesses are trying to deal with that now. But has technology also provided a lot of tools? And I know, like you say, we're going to talk about some strategies, but has it also provided some tools to help people manage their employee burnout or their burnout, essentially?
SPEAKER_02:I think technology tools can only work in that sense if they're led by leaders who role model. So, you know, what I don't like is, you know, say that you're a business and you've got, you know, that you've got employees that are struggling with burnout or, you know, workaholicism or other things. And you're like, oh, you know, user AP system. And, you know, we've got a wellness app. Don't worry, we've got a wellness app. That is a sick and plaster. It's not going to fix anything, you know? So I think we need to be real about these things.
UNKNOWN:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:that's really important
SPEAKER_00:yeah i mean i think i i it's a real challenge isn't it i think we we came from uh a world where there was that that drive that that continual drive to you know to be the last person in the office make sure you're you're there last make sure you're there first you're that hustle culture that that meant that whether you were a lawyer or an accountant or a business owner or whatever it was, there was a feeling of, right, we need to, you know, we need to be the last people, the last people to leave and the first people in to show that we can do it. You know, almost a presenteeism of, you know, a ridiculous level of presenteeism that probably burnt a lot of people out. And I don't feel that we have a lot of that these days, but I think there's still an element of people feeling like they need to perform to progress and grow in their job. Do you think that's the case?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, I don't think it's always about being in the office. I mean, there's this whole thing about replying to messages really late at night. um or you know being seen to be you know going to every event to network or do all these things and then you're juggling that with all the other things that you have on at home
SPEAKER_01:and
SPEAKER_02:things like that and you know i mean obviously what i'd love to go on and speak about and i think we will is strategies and ways to mitigate that and again just back to what i said it does need to be led from the top because you i think you said it before it's like unless people feel that they have it's almost like permission
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's that feeling of comfort or feeling comfortable enough to say to your line manager or whoever it might be, listen, I just feel a wee bit worn out, you know, and I need to just reassess what I'm doing here. And I think that sometimes if you don't have that support structure in place, it can be a lonely place. It can be a challenging place, can't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and absolutely. And to be fair, I mean, what we've not really spoke about is, you know, the impact of burnout is often that people become less productive. They become disengaged. When it really spirals, you become completely overwhelmed. You don't feel effective. You almost spend more time doing less, you know, getting lost in detail of things. And then you're not actually making a difference or an impact. You know, so it's not good for the business. It's not just about individual well-being. It's actually about business productivity. It is a business issue, commercial issue.
SPEAKER_00:Ultimately, it absolutely is. It's the bottom line and it's that productivity where people, as you touched on, I mean, the symptoms are not the symptoms. Yeah, I mean, the reality or the result of poor employee or employee burnout is exactly as you say, you know, their productivity actually goes down. So, well, the drive is there to be more productive, to deliver more, to get more done It has the absolute opposite
SPEAKER_02:effect. So there's a lot of things that can come up. So somebody that's been previously really motivated, really engaged, really excited about things can start to become maybe a bit negative, a bit cynical, can become a bit overwhelmed. Maybe their energy is just less visible. Maybe when they were really effective before, that can start to slip off. deadlines don't necessarily get met and it's not necessarily because they're not there or present it's just that they're struggling to manage everything and their self esteem for example can be okay you know that's a real thing and then on a personal level so if you're thinking about as an individual um you're you can become maybe having insomnia and you know other issues our health can suffer and if there has been maybe underlying conditions already or things like addiction that can definitely worsen so it can be more and more prone to that. So maybe we're relying more and more on props, like alcohol, could be gambling, could be, you know, shopping, all these types of different things. Actually, that can be more and more necessary just to help us continue. So that can be an issue as well.
SPEAKER_00:So if, you know, as an HR team, they're looking at strategies to try and deal with this, to avoid it, or to deal with the situation if it has already arisen, what sort of strategies would you suggest to try and in place?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I mean, we had some really good experience ourselves. And it's not something I came up with. But I was introduced to a framework called the Mindful Business Chartner. Charter. Charter, sorry. Business charter. So this was something that was actually developed in the legal sector, which is professional services sector, which obviously has, you know, and still, I mean, if we look at Magic Circle firms and all of this, you know, there's obviously still challenges. I'm not going to pretend that it's perfect. But it's a sector, you know, and my husband's a lawyer, actually. And, you know, I've obviously built a professional services business, spent a lot of time in that space. the demands of clients, you know, it makes things really difficult because businesses are not just focusing on what the leader says, but you're actually looking at, you know, delivering for your clients. What I loved about this framework, and when I spent some time looking into it, something that we signed up to and we actually registered as a member business of was it was a whole commitment around practices within your business, but also other businesses. So it wasn't just law firms. There was like businesses in banking, you know, large client businesses. I think Blackleys Bank was one where they were signing up to say, you know, we commit to this as well. So if you work with us as a part as a partner, as a client, as a service provider, as a supplier, we will all manage these processes together. And it was really sensible things about managing rest periods, respecting times that people need to switch off. I know that there's a lot of talk at the moment about legal frameworks for switch off time and things like that. I mean, I personally don't know that that should really be necessary. I do think that businesses should be able to sensibly drive that themselves without legislation. sometimes i think politics almost gets involved in things that if we could just do things sensibly we don't really need that um and so you know things like you know as a manager when i email people do really practical basic things do i maybe just manage the time that gets delivered
SPEAKER_01:okay yeah
SPEAKER_02:and and before i do that do i actually talk to my staff and check because This is a funny thing, right? So I've spoke to people before where they said, no, what I do is I send all my emails at night, right? What I do is I set them so that people don't get them until 8.30 in the morning. And then I spoke to the staff and they were like, Lisa, honestly, I can't stand it. Like I open my emails in the morning. I get like seven emails at the same time. Don't know what one's more important. And so it's actually about communication. sensible communication and if you can have that discussion as well with your clients and then as a leader or a business owner you can have that sensible discussion to make sure that you manage the expectations it's so
SPEAKER_00:valuable communication is is so often the critical part of this and obviously working in the comms world uh you kind of take it for granted sometimes but actually internal communications is such an important um kill as much as anything else just being able to communicate with your team and we talk a wee bit here about being vulnerable you know and being able to these questions are not silly you know as you touched on there a really good example of all the emails come in at 8.30 oh my goodness I don't know what to do which one do I go for first and as a manager you're probably thinking that's great I'll not send them in the middle of the night I'll send them you know in the first thing in the morning and then great they can go and manage it but actually yeah You're creating more stress and anxiety. So it's so good to be able to then communicate. And I guess communication is probably a critical part of any strategy, you know, looking at employee burnout.
SPEAKER_02:And I think it's mindful delegation as well. So, you know, and almost being sometimes as a manager or a leader or a business owner, what can you say no to and what can you push back? Because sometimes I think the worst thing is if as an employee you go to a manager or a leader and you say, I'm really struggling like i'm burnt out and they say don't worry any problems you have just tell me And it's like, no, I actually want you to offer some practical suggestions. You know, so sometimes you need to sit down and say, okay, take me through your list of what you've got on your plate. Like, what can, let's reprioritise it together. Like, sometimes it needs to be a little bit more proactive than reactive because sometimes people don't even know what to ask for. I think that's, you know, an unmet need sometimes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. No, that's a critical thing, actually. And actually being, yeah, as you say, proactive about it and sitting down with someone and looking at their workload because I think everybody's ambitious. No, that's not true. People are ambitious. There's lots of people who are ambitious. And it's not to say that, you know, you come in and we deal with something effectively and say, look, I know you can't do everything, so let's prioritize. And you can still have your ambition. You can still have that drive to succeed. But actually, let's do it in a practical format because you're right. If you keep going without asking those questions, then eventually you're you don't know which way is right, you don't know what's to be expected, then it's very challenging to come back from that.
SPEAKER_02:and sometimes you know there's this whole thing about if you need something done give it to a busy person and that can be a real issue in a team because what it ends up is overloading the highest performers in the team because they're almost seen as a sponge that will soak everything up and you don't really know what's going on underneath the surface for that person which is a real risk actually.
SPEAKER_00:Do some of the strategies, some of the practical things like Managing emails, whether it's communication after certain hours, that sort of thing. Are they important? Is that what people are implementing in their business? Or is it more of a broader strategy that you're looking at when you're talking to HR teams?
SPEAKER_02:What I'm going to talk about is what we did as a business actually. What we actually did was we did a session with a team and so it was very much collaborative and it was about our working practices and it was about what would people like and there was lots of really helpful things that people said like I'm going to block out in my diary Things like the times that I pick up the kids from school or the times that I'm not available. And then we were all really recognising that in terms of, okay, I'm not going to put meetings in there. Equally, from a business perspective, I was able to say, well, okay, guys, this is the time that we do our team stand-up every day. So this is a protected time that I do need you. And I was able to find a good time, you know, so it has to be a two way thing. The other part of it was like even basic stuff. Like we were, you know, I do like, yes, you can look at a strategy, but I do think practical tips are really key. So even things like we would just look at like putting on our emails because some people actually wanted to send emails at night and that's okay. So like, and I was like that, but what I would do is I would see on my email notification at the bottom, I work funny out, but I can't remember the exact word. Yeah, yeah. Or sporadic hours or something. You know, I don't expect you to respond to me at the time that I send this. You know, things like that. But unless somebody had actually had that explained to them, they were like, but does she really mean that? You
SPEAKER_01:know? Yeah, yeah. it's
SPEAKER_02:absolutely what to be explained and in context
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah no absolutely and i think if you're new into business for instance you know you get that email from you i've just started my first week and i get that i don't expect anybody to respond but you really do then you know
SPEAKER_02:but she did it so yeah
SPEAKER_00:yeah absolutely absolutely um and i guess uh just I wonder if it's changed. I know we touched on this at the start and you said, look, you know, if COVID was a big change for a lot of businesses, and obviously we know that has been the case, but you touched on something there about the fact that I'm going to block out some time for going to pick up the kids or this is my gym time. I need to go to the gym every day at lunchtime because it just helps my productivity in the afternoon, whoever it might be. And people weren't necessarily able to do that pre-COVID. So do you think that Pre-COVID, sorry, post-COVID, we're actually in a better place now in terms of this, or do you think it's just adapted and changed in terms of burnout?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I speak to so many businesses, and I don't think there's one. fits all and i do think some businesses have almost like been so focused on getting everyone back to the office that maybe they've slipped back into worse habits
SPEAKER_01:so i
SPEAKER_02:can't you know i can't speak for that i think the businesses that have taken the good things and taking that forward are the ones that are going to do best out of this. Types of things, like even for me, just thinking about, you know, getting into the winter season now, it's, you know, the daylight hours are much reduced, right? So I used to always say to my team, because some people actually, you know, I'm the same, right? I really value like getting the vitamin D and getting out and that time in the light. Honestly, people's moods, you know, this is the big thing. And so I would always say to my team, like, make sure you block out time and go for a walk at lunch something like that and you know as a culture of a team take calls don't always do everything as a video coach don't actually necessarily need to be looking at somebody in the mindset and you could be out on the mobile and and get the same information and so it's just again it's back to what i said earlier on i think it's about setting the parameters and giving people a framework and then letting them make decisions but knowing that they have permission and that they're empowered to make those types of decisions because you care about their well-being honestly like the difference that makes
SPEAKER_00:yeah no absolutely and then i guess communicating that with your clients as well you know whether if you're if you're service-based organization or whatever it might be just making sure they're aware of that as well and i think that is a such an important thing
SPEAKER_02:because
SPEAKER_00:as you've touched on before, a client email comes in at midnight or there's that pressure to deal with it or 10 o'clock in the morning or wherever, whenever it comes in and you set out your time and says, look, I don't work in that period, being disciplined enough to say no, that's not where I'm going to answer that email. I think that's a critical, isn't
SPEAKER_02:it? I think as a leader, you know, sometimes you're like, oh, but I want to be seen to be responsive or, you know, Whereas actually maybe you need to set the tone for your team. It's a real balancing act.
SPEAKER_01:Can
SPEAKER_02:I say I've always got it perfect? No, I can't. But I do think for leaders, that's something to really think about and be mindful of because that will make a big difference in terms of trust from your team. Because otherwise you can say things and they probably won't believe you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You've got to live that, haven't you? Do you think it's a... I mean, you work with a lot of startups and obviously early stage businesses as well as those that are scaling. So do you think it's a... a leadership thing? Do you see more leaders in that scenario? Or, you know, is it something where the team are striving to help the leader out? Do you think it's one or the other? Or do you think it's actually, if the leader's like that, you'll tend to find the team follows suit because they're trying to meet the expectations?
SPEAKER_02:Such a good question. You know, all the businesses I work with, each are
SPEAKER_01:unique. I
SPEAKER_02:can't say... what I've seen quite often is where the leader sets the tone it gives people the permission so they probably thought that was the right thing to do but if the leader doesn't do it then you know they don't want to let that leader down I mean they want to deliver for them they want to learn for the clients but first of all they want to slip for the leader too and I think the other bit would just be the more you know so i've run a service business and i've had lots of clients and every time you set an expectation with the client you know that's what they're going to expect the next time as well so you could think like oh just set this a couple of times just to get the relationship going that's going to set the tone you know and and often if you say to the client this is why especially you know if you're a people business and you're there to support their people why am i not going to look after my own people like Basically, it makes sense. I'm actually showing you the way here.
SPEAKER_00:It's a really tough balance because I guess you have some people in the organisation whose mindset is very work-focused and they want to progress. I'm not suggesting for a second that those that are not as work-focused don't want to progress, but I think sometimes you have different personalities and I think it's trying to find that equality across the organisation, isn't it? To be able to say, look, this is the organisation we are We prize productivity, we want people to work as well as they can, but it's equally important to us that people feel that they can come into work, they can be honest, they can be open and work to their maximum, their capacity.
SPEAKER_02:I'm going to challenge it really slightly as well and just say sometimes it's not that you're not work focused, it's just that you also have other priorities too. I
SPEAKER_01:suppose that's what I mean, yeah. yeah
SPEAKER_02:yeah that we're not work focused like yes we are but there are times that despite the priority of the work there's just other things you know that come
SPEAKER_01:up I know
SPEAKER_02:absolutely at the right time you know
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah but I think that that has to come from the company doesn't it to be able to set the
SPEAKER_01:permission
SPEAKER_00:yeah Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I just always think about the different personalities in the team and think about somebody who's... And you're absolutely right. It's not about saying their priorities are any more or less important. It's just saying, look, there's permission here as a team for you to... go for and achieve what you want to achieve, you know, and we'll set the parameters and hopefully give you the tools to be able to go on and do that job. I
SPEAKER_02:do think, like, as a high-performing team, like, that's when I've always seen other people say, that's when I'll step up, you know, because I get that, but then, you know, we'll cover for each other.
SPEAKER_00:And delegation is so important as well, isn't it, to be able to delegate and say, as you touched on right at the start, like, what can we achieve? What can we feasibly do? Because I think there's sometimes that, that it happens in small businesses, that notion that just say yes, we'll do it, and then we'll work out how. It's quite a dangerous concept because it could get you a long way down the line, and you can deliver maybe the first one, maybe the second one, but eventually it starts to really wear on people because you're not set up to do that.
SPEAKER_02:It's such a good point, Nian, because especially startups and things like that. So like me personally, as a founder, there's times I have to call on a project and I've been quite happy to do it until midnight or whatever to win that client. Do I expect my team to do that? No. So it's not a sustainable strategy and certainly for scaling. it's not going to work if you scale. So, you know, it's something to think about in terms of processes and structure and all of that stuff. That's a whole other discussion, no doubt.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. It is, it is. Absolutely. So, just to finish off then, to think about maybe three things that either as a CEO or an HR team that are thinking about, you know, we want to make sure that we're kind of guarding against employee burnout. What sort of things should they think about?
SPEAKER_02:I would say firstly, look out for the signs. So, you know, if you've had somebody, for example, who has been super engaged, super high performing and maybe starts to just switch off or detach or go a bit quiet, you know, just check in with them, like look out for it because that can be an issue. Don't overload because we said that, you know, give it to a busy person. Okay, fine. Don't overload the top performers because there's a point that will become a tipping point. And that's really, really challenging and can be quite dangerous. And then thirdly, like, don't be afraid to set the parameters with your clients, with your, you know, business actually, be intentional about this and rather than be reactive to when you've got a problem let's think about how can we put a strategy around this and how can we create an environment where people can thrive and deliver and mindful that this is the thing that comes up in every business so you know let's let's let's tackle it head on right
SPEAKER_00:right well thank you very much for your time today lisa i really appreciate that and looking forward to catching up again soon
SPEAKER_01:thanks
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams. So don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can, leave us a review. We really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.