HR Leadership At Board Level | Season 2, Episode 8 | Recruitment and Beyond Podcast

Join Recruitment and Beyond, the essential podcast for HR professionals in Scotland, as we dive into the evolving world of human resources, leadership, and business strategy. Hosted by Ewan Anderson, Marketing Director at Eden Scott, we bring you candid conversations with industry-leading figures who are shaping the future of people and culture.

In this episode, we welcome Laura Smith, Director of People and Culture at NHS Golden Jubilee, to explore why HR deserves a seat at the boardroom table. 

Laura shares her unique career journey, the power of shifting perceptions around HR, and how strategic people leadership drives business success. From influencing company culture to navigating the impact of AI on the workforce, we discuss how HR professionals can position themselves as key decision-makers in any organization.

📌 Key takeaways:
✔ Why "HR" should evolve into "People and Culture"
✔ The importance of influencing at board level
✔ How to future-proof your workforce in the age of AI
✔ Three actionable tips for HR professionals to elevate their strategic impact

If you're passionate about shaping the future of work, leading with purpose, and ensuring HR is at the heart of business strategy, this episode is for you.

🔔 Subscribe now to never miss an episode! And if you enjoy the show, leave us a review—it helps us grow and bring more insights to the HR community.

#HRLeadership #PeopleAndCulture #RecruitmentAndBeyond #FutureOfWork

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Transcript

Ewan (00:05):

Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Ewan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Today we're joined by Laura Smith, the Director of People and Culture at NHS Golden Jubilee, to discuss how important it's to have HR and people representation at the board level to ensure the success of any organization. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment of Beyond podcast. I am joined today by Laura Smith, who is the director of People and Culture at NHS Golden Jubilee. Laura, great to have you with us.

Laura (00:57):

Hi, it's great to be here.

Ewan (00:59):

So Laura, I'll let you do an introduction to yourself, but today we want to talk about just influencing at that board level, just trying to help people understand the value of HR and its importance within an organization at senior level and how we go about helping people to influence and guide strategy. So yeah, looking forward to a good discussion, but do you want to just give us some insight into your background and your journey to being the senior people lead at NHS Gone Jubilee?

Laura (01:27):

Yeah. Yes, you're really happy to. I've been part of the HR community on and off all of my career, but not in a straightforward way. So I actually started working as part of a learning and organizational development team, and that's really where my heart lay initially. And then took a really long detour actually out of hr, into program management, into business transformation for a long time, for over 15 years. But all of the transformation that I was involved with had people at its heart, and the closer I got to people transformation the closer I got back to the HR community. So I find myself back in the HR community about seven or eight years ago, and that's where I very naturally and happily sit Now most of my career has been in the private sector and only the last year actually have I made a big old change and switched to the public sector and working for the NHS. So I'm the director of People and culture in NHS, golden Jubilee and the team that I'm lucky enough to lead spans all sorts of things in our HR world, from recruitment to core HR to qualities to occupational health to learning and organizational development where I first began. But I also have a small team of chaplains who help with the spiritual care of both our patients and our staff. So a really diverse team, but all with people at the very center of it.

Ewan (03:04):

Wow, that is quite a portfolio that is a lot to take care of, isn't it?

Laura (03:09):

It is, but it all incredibly linked and all very reliant on each other. So delighted to have it together under one portfolio.

Ewan (03:18):

Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So I guess part of what we want to discuss today is just, I mean there's obviously a growing number of people from an HR and a people background that are sitting at that board level now, but perhaps not as many as there could be. What do you think are the barriers to them getting to that role and what sort of things can be, how can we overcome that? How can we get beyond that?

Laura (03:40):

It is a great question, and I think some of this is about perception actually. If you ask people who are not part of the HR profession, what is HR or who are HR people or what do they do? I think for some people that's a really traditional answer.

(03:58):

It's

(03:59):

A sort of service that sits very firmly in its lane, it's very transactional, very operational, and we pull them in for their expertise when we need them. And if that is your perception of hr, then I wouldn't invite us into the boardroom either. I would use us when you need us, and I wouldn't expect you to have a place around that table. So from a perception point of view, that leaves me thinking we can either accept that perception and wait for the invitation or we can do something to help shift that perception. And I see a lot of people in my profession doing just that. So I actually think this is about how the company, their culture, their traditions view HR traditionally or not, and the role that we play in really shifting that.

Ewan (04:54):

I suppose it comes from both sides, doesn't it really? I mean it is one of those where like you say, you can sit and wait for the invitation or you can do something positive about it. And then I think you're right. I think there's a traditional perception about HR sometimes, as you say, transactional, when's a pay date, when where's that policy, that sort of thing. But the people side of the business is so important, isn't it? So I suppose from both sides, a better understanding at a strategic level and then more from the HR team say, this is where we add value, this is what we can do. In the same way for a long time, marketing has been seen in a similar sort of vein, very transactional until you understand the insight and the knowledge that marketers have for the customer. And in the same vein, HR teams and people leads have a great understanding of their teams and I suppose a strategic board level people really taking the time to understand that.

Laura (05:50):

But here's really interesting to me, even in this short conversation so far, Ian, we have used different language to describe the world I work in.

(06:00):

So you introduce this as being something about hr, and I sometimes struggle with the terminology HR, because I've taken that detour through different bits of the business. I have often had that very narrow-minded view of who HR are and the value they can add. I have been that person at different points in my career. So the language I hear us using today I think is really interesting because you've consistently then said people, and I think that's really critical. So my job title is director of people and culture, it's not HR director. And I think that is subtle but super important. Now, I didn't give myself that job title. The job I applied for already had that. But that told me a little bit about the culture of the organization I was joining that told me about the thinking of my boss and how he viewed the value add of someone from my profession and my profession, not just being hr, my specialism being people and people in their holistic term. And that isn't just about my team and that portfolio that I hold people are the consistent through every single organization. So I think the minute that light bulb goes off for anybody and they recognize that talking about people rather than just HR is quite critical. I think that opens the door to lots of other conversations, which is super, super helpful.

Ewan (07:37):

Yeah, I completely agree. And yeah, we do tend to try and use that word people because exactly that. It's a bit the development of people because we see that all the time. It's about retention and helping people to grow and develop in their job. And it's the development of people, isn't it? And it's an interesting terminology that you're absolutely right. It changes the dynamic, it changes the perception of what you see as that team, whether it's the people team or the HR team. And I think that's where you start to understand where can really be the real value can come to the company.

Laura (08:15):

Completely agree. But some of the things that you've mentioned there around how do we attract people, how do we attain people, how do we develop them? They're things that I do think are real core people things. They are part of my strategy. They are things I measured on. They're things that my team are specialists in. But the people bit for me is broader than that because that's me still sticking in my lane.

(08:40):

So

(08:40):

If we go into any industry, let's say it's a private sector and you're a commercial business, you want to sell who is likely to be selling, you will probably have a website, you will probably have different channels, but you will have people. So it's not just about the development of those people or keep the good ones, it's about how do we really harness the power of a workforce to help make your organization thrive? And what thriving looks like for different organizations might be different. So for a commercial organization that might be sales and bottom line for something in the third or public sector that might be about a service to other people, but it's about trying to tap into how to help support and develop your organization, not just from an HR perspective because that's what we are measured against, but in order to make the rest of the organization successful. So what is it the organization wants to do and how can my team help them achieve those goals? And that's where it stops being transactional and operational for me and starts being the conversation in the boardroom that is very strategic. So there's a subtle difference there for me, which brings us out of our lane and into the other bits of the business.

Ewan (10:02):

Absolutely. But I think not to disagree with that, but I wanted to try and pick that apart now and just think, so how do we do that? How do we get to that position where we can start to influence and change perceptions of HR and sorry of people, there you go again, HR people. How do we go about doing that as opposed from your point of view to ensure that it is seen as a critical strategic asset to the board? What are some of the practical things we could even think about doing?

Laura (10:32):

And don't apologize about the terminology by the way, because I do it too. And I don't think HR is a bad phrase. Incidentally, I use it too. I also use workforce because that's an embedded vocabulary where I work. But there is something about people that I think is a bit more holistic. So in terms of how we get there, I think one of the key things here is relationship building and tapping into who else is around that board table and what do they want to achieve with their strategic objectives. So every people leader will have their own, they'll have their own goals and objectives and metrics to try to meet. But what are yours? What are your challenges in every other bit of the business and how can my team and their specialism help you meet those? So the first thing is sort of building that bridge in relationship and truly understanding how the business works. So rather than being waited to invite in transactionally when we have a problem to solve or a people challenge, even when there isn't a people challenge and things are going fine, how can we tap into the mechanics of the organization to understand how to capitalize on people? And that starts with really building relationships with those other divisions and departments in the organization to listen and to learn how they function.

(11:59):

Because

(11:59):

Until we understand that, we can't begin to explore how people are helping or hindering them reach those goals. So I think relationship building is really, really key. There's something else here for me around a mindset on our behalf, which is around focusing on what we can do rather than what we can't. And I think because the world of HR is one that is steeped in policy and process

(12:37):

And legal rigor actually for great reason incidentally, to keep everybody in the workplace safe and to keep them productive and happy and really feeling as though that's where they want to work. I get all of that. But those posts, if you take processes and policies as very sort of blanket statements or things that must be implemented to the letter of the law without overlaying context, then I think we are not doing ourselves any favors. And I'm sure we've all been in situations where any division or department, I'm not specifically talking about HR here, sort of bring out the rule book of what we're meant to do and that inhibits us doing what we feel is the right thing to do. So there's something here about us being sensibly risk averse,

(13:34):

But brave enough to make decisions and to look to the future in a way that doesn't hide behind processes and policies. That instead starts the conversation and the thinking from a position of what do our people need and want? What does our business need and want in order to thrive? And then let's work back from there and figure out how our processes and our policies will help us do that rather than here's where the business wants to go. And anyone in any profession saying, oh, well we can't because the rule book says we're not allowed to do that. Now there are instances where it's absolutely right that we don't do certain things, but I think starting the conversation with an open mindset that says, okay, this is a challenge and there could be risks to this, but I am right with you in the room trying to make it happen rather than being an obstacle that has to be got over because I'm hanging on to my policy book a bit too tightly.

(14:39):

So

(14:39):

There's a balance there. We absolutely have to stick to those policies for the protection of people, but if we enter things with a mindset that's mega open, there's often a way that balances that beautifully in a way that compromises things for the benefit of people and the benefit of the business.

Ewan (15:00):

Sure. I suppose I've got a few questions there just around, and I completely agree, and I think this part of this goes back to the culture that's created because, cause we had a chat about maternity and parental leave with somebody else in the podcast, and part of what was coming through was, let's take a sensible approach to this. There is a real book here and we understand that there needs to be, and I think as the organization gets a bit bigger, you talked about the policies protecting people and I suppose there's a slight element of the policies protecting the organization as well because both, yeah, we need to do things correctly and right, but there needs to be a level of common sense as you touched on there, really to help craft what's right for our organization. And it won't necessarily be right for every organization, but it's right for us.

(15:46):

And I think having that sensible grownup conversation can really help HR people of service to be able to do that and to help everybody achieve their goals. As you say, it's not necessarily about holding their rule book up and saying, here we are, this is what we can do and this is what we can't do. It's about having a conversation. But I think as part of that nervousness around getting yourself into challenges, particularly in a larger organization where if allowances are made here should be made there, is that where that starts to become more complex and more difficult to deliver?

Laura (16:23):

I think it definitely does. And that's not just in the boardroom. I see that at all levels of the organization because in nervousness is the word you just used dear you and I think it's exactly the right one. I think organizations are full of people with great intent who are a little scared that they're going to do the wrong thing. So there's a degree of security and hanging onto a rule book, and I totally get that. But I firmly believe and I maintain, and maybe it's my non-traditional route into HR that has built this confidence in me that if you attack any situation, if you approach any situation with really good intent and listening to the needs of the people involved and really seeking to understand their different perspectives and thinking very logically about what it must feel like to be in this situation and what would I do in that situation and what would be a great outcome for everybody, none of those thought processes are written in policies.

(17:23):

They are just good human intent. And I think building confidence in organizations that if you start that way with good intent and kindness, great listening and a desire to find a solution that works for everybody, if that's your starting point, then we absolutely need to check on those policies and make sure that our next steps comply with your organizational policies, but also the law. But start from that position. Don't start from the rule book. And I think that translates into the boardroom because when you're talking about strategic decisions, the direction of the workforce, the culture that you want to create in an organization, none of that's written in a rule book that's actually about what we feel as humans is the right direction of travel. So there's something about building your confidence in beginning to at least start conversations that come with that real good human intent before you then go back and look at a policy or a process.

Ewan (18:22):

That's great. Laura. Thank you. I think we'll have a quick break and we'll be back after this. And I guess at that strategic level, so from my point of view, I assumed we'd go in here and start talking about facts and figures and this is how you get there. But that's a really interesting point about the culture's not written in a rule book somewhere. I mean it might be as a marketer, it'll probably be in a marketing handbook somewhere, but that's not what makes a culture. And so I guess how do we go about influencing that at strategic level to say, look, this is a really important part of this. What are you taking to that table? What are you bringing to the table to say, look, this is how we move the business forward and you need to be understanding this at a board level.

Laura (19:11):

I think there's a couple of lenses to this that you probably need to pick and choose the right approach with depending on the business you're working with and their style. And some of this is tapping into the right currency for the other people around that boardroom. So let's go back into a commercial world in the private sector. If actually the other board members there care more deeply about the bottom line than they ever will about people, then we need to find a way of crafting our conversations that talk their language, that helps them understand what's in it for them. And I'm not for a minute suggesting that organizations are full of people who don't care about people. I don't mean that at all, but if their critical objectives are more commercial, it's easy for the human elements of hearts and minds to fall a little lower in their list of priorities. So rather than the people person in the room constantly shouting about, remember hearts and minds, remember people and I found a more effective way is to try to, if it's a commercial organization, monetize that.

(20:20):

So

(20:20):

When we do have an effective culture, how will that achieve the bottom line for you or what does that do to your part of the organization that I know you're trying to run after but you're finding tricky? So I think part of it is learning to talk the language of the people around that particular table and that language might not be one that's very naturally,

(20:42):

And

(20:43):

I think that's something we have to accept if that's the organization you're part of, learning to talk that way or tap into what's important to them is really important. But the other phase I've just used there, this is the other lens, the other slant to this is hearts and minds. And I think in any organization, regardless of how people centered they are, I see a big part of my role to be the person that flies that flag in every meeting. And not just in the meeting, but in my actions and in my behaviors and how I demonstrate the workplace that I'd like to work in. So some of this is about helping people understand the hearts and minds that are necessary that go along with any kind of people work, be it transactional HR activity or be it big people transformation. Actually no change for the good is ever going to happen unless you have your people with you. So helping the boardroom really understand how critical and important that is, is vital and tapping into that with their language is the way I found to do that.

Ewan (21:54):

Yeah, it's a really good point actually. It's just understanding your audience and knowing what's going to work best for them. How do they need to hear it to get value And actually being, again, you touched on this, adapting your approach to understand where the business value is and where the business need is and then adapting your messaging for that, it's really important. Do you think now you've come from both sides here, and this wasn't on our list of questions, but it's just interesting to hear your different perspectives from a private side and then a public sector side. Do you think you've learned from both to be able to bring the right mix here to your current role?

Laura (22:33):

Well, whether I bring the right mix, I actually don't know you and you're probably asking the wrong person. You probably have to ask my team, my peers, everyone else in my organization. And I am almost certain I haven't got that mix correct yet. And I think we're always striving to make that better. And I think the minute you stop, we're probably not in a great position, but it has been eyeopening for me to work as part of both sectors. And I think I'm a richer professional in this space because of it. It definitely added more. It's definitely helped me bring a different perspective to my new organization, whether that perspective is always the right one or welcome or hits the mark. I'm sure it will sometimes and I'm sure it won't others, but it does help me. I tell you what's terrific about going from private to public sector or any move from one organization to the other, and I was really nervous making that transition. I'll be super honest about it. I did worry that my skillset wouldn't be transferable enough and that this would be an environment that I couldn't add enough value to.

(23:50):

But much as I've been on an incredibly steep learning curve, the thing that I've been super reassured about is people are people.

(23:59):

So

(23:59):

Whichever sector, whether it's a highly commercial business, whether it's a third sector or public sector that's serving patients or people, staff members, employees generally want to need the same things. They want to feel part of an organization that values them. They want their working conditions to be really safe, comfortable, and an enjoyable place to spend their time. They want the culture to be brilliant so that they want to be there every day they want to develop. None of these things are about the NHS or about my previous career. These are things about people who work

(24:40):

Anywhere.

(24:41):

So I've been hugely reassured that that's consistent and it's consistent. And I often tell a story of one of the very first meetings I was on in my new NHS job, but I didn't really understand the landscape yet or who was colleagues sha some of their frustrations about some of the things in their workplace and some of the detail of their frustrations could have been the conversation I'd had a few years before part of a completely different sector.

(25:11):

So

(25:11):

I think the fact that people is a terrific thing for our profession because it means you're not stuck in one industry, you don't need to be pigeonholed. And that really helps our ability to move across industries and into the boardroom with a perspective that says, well actually in my people experience, regardless of where it's been, here's the value I can add to this conversation.

Ewan (25:38):

No, absolutely. It's a really good point. And actually you touched on something there now things are changing quite quickly, but there's been interesting change over the last week while just with some of the tech giants and the changes in culture and so on and the importance of DEI and how important that is to businesses. And one of the questions we talked about there, and we mentioned there about the link to financial performance or people performance depending on what the objectives of the organization are about getting diversity within your organization and its importance. I think sometimes it was seen for a while in terms of tick box, but actually you touched on it really importantly there about culture and developing that diversity there and how important it's to the organization. Do you think particularly with some of the political changes, and I don't want to delve into any kind of politics here, but some of the political changes in the changes around culture, it's still a vitally important part of a human resources team to ensure that there's diversity across the team. Would that be the case?

Laura (26:43):

Oh, absolutely. I think our workforce benefits from being as diverse as the population we serve.

(26:53):

So be that a customer base, be it patients, we will be much more successful doing so if all rooms, not just the boardroom, every meeting room, every team is a really broad selection of society in all of its different forms. I firmly believe that, and I do think there's growing recognition of that. I think the fact that, for example, when I introduced myself, I mentioned that I have an inequalities part to my team and I'm not alone. Lots of core HR specialisms now have a dedicated team or lead that specifically focuses on raising the awareness of the need to have diversity in all of our workforce. That's a huge part of the role I now have and the organization I'm part of. And I think that is snowballing and happening more. But you actually started that question to talking about tech giants, and I think that's really relevant to this too because the conversations that we're having or I see beginning to be had now in the HR profession around the workforce of the future absolutely has to embrace the fact that technology and AI is going to transform the way that all workplaces function.

(28:14):

Now that isn't, although that's steeped in technology and that may well be a different division in your business, the impact of that and the potential of it is at the heart of the people function because we have people doing things just now that in the future machines may be able to do

(28:39):

And that can make people feel very vulnerable. We don't yet understand it. What will the impacts be to any workforce in any industry? And this is where I think our role is even more critical in the boardroom because I think we should be leading that conversation, not necessarily just the technology teams. I want to be on the front foot of understanding how technology will influence our workforce and not purely from an efficiency perspective either, because I think there's a conclusion often drawn that AI or technology will equal smaller workforce. And there may be instances where that's true,

(29:20):

But

(29:20):

I think that the value add that I can add, I hope, and that our profession can add is beginning to understand the value that humans will be able to add in the future versus that technology and really understanding tapping into it and planning for that so that we can really utilize the workforces we have just now in a brilliant way. That's a key part of that diversity too, is not just trying to tick a box that says X percent of our workforce meet this particular demographic or a protected characteristic. It's also about understanding the mix of our workforce and what that needs to be in the future.

Ewan (30:07):

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think you're spot on with this about the people function needs to almost lead that AI development, that future proof in the workforce because ultimately people will continue to work, the jobs will evolve, the requirements will evolve, and a lot of the day-to-day automation, or sorry, the day-to-day rules will be covered by automation. So there's a change in skills, there's a change in approach that's got to be driven by the people team. And it kind of goes right back to the start of what you were talking about around just the belief you have in the people side of things, really spending a bit of time understanding how important they are and how they can add value to the company. And looking at what that value looks like in 10, 15 years time, future proof in your organization, it has to start with people because people are the core part of any business really. And understanding that

Laura (31:05):

It really does, and there's a bit of all of this for me that is actually about storytelling or narrative would be a more accurate way to describe that because whether it's something that's happening right now or whether it's something that's going to happen in a workforce in 15 years time, we've talked today about the need to bring the hearts and minds of people with you and it's not just a transaction.

(31:30):

And

(31:30):

I think some of the value that we can add in the boardroom is understanding the business objectives, which sometimes might be challenging and may have people impacts. That's the reality of it. But how can I add value to how we craft the narrative of that

(31:45):

So

(31:46):

That we very sensitively and carefully plan for people impacts and tell that story to the workforce over a period of time where they feel less vulnerable, where they feel reassured. And the tech AI example is a good one of that because without good narrative, you're left thinking that computer might take over my job with the right narrative. Hopefully you'll understand that the bits of your job that you hate doing because they're really adminy,

(32:18):

They're

(32:18):

Not going to need to do them anymore. So your valuable human resource can be used with way more potential to capitalize on the bits you're greater and add value with. That's the difference I think between the narrative and the storytelling that goes along with that people strategy. It's not just the doing, it's the how we tell that story both in the boardroom so that everyone's mindset's in the same place, but then bringing the whole organization with us.

Ewan (32:47):

Yeah, no, absolutely a hundred percent. And that covers off, I was going to chat to you about what the next five to 10 years look like, but actually you've covered it there because there's going to be an evolution with technology. There's new technology out today with the new Chinese AI coming in, so there's a whole raft of things that are coming and it's only going to get more, it's only going to get better, it's going to get more developed. So we have to understand the people's side of that and really bring that to the board and bring that to board level. So just to finish off, we tend to ask our guests to give us three tips to try and help those that are listening to do what they do, what we've just been talking about, which is to bring that HR that people function to strategic level and bring it to the board level. So I wonder if you might have just three top tips that maybe somebody in a people team can bring to their organization.

Laura (33:44):

I would go with tip number one is I would encourage you to think outside of your lane.

(33:50):

So I think in lots of professions, not just hr and particularly if you are highly skilled in that profession and you've come up through the ranks of your particular role, it can feel much safer to stay in your lane. So my first tip actually is to get comfortable with looking either side of you and right around the organization and learning about those different divisions and how the business and the organization works. So not staying in our lane I think is the first tip I probably got. The second tip I've got, and this is both for people in the HR profession, but also for people who might be employing people in the people space, which is to be open-minded in recruiting people who don't have the traditional path into your profession. And I would say this because I've not had a traditional path into my provision, but I'm not just talking about HR here.

(34:53):

So

(34:53):

The number of job descriptions I see that say degree is mandatory or whatever it might be, five years previous experience, and this is mandatory public sector experience is mandatory. I've chosen to respectfully ignore lots of job descriptions that I've applied for because I firmly believe that there are different ways to earn your stripes. So my second tip to all employers actually would be to really challenge yourself to remove some of the traditional barriers to bringing diversity into your workforce. So that's the second one and the third one there, I think probably, and this is for everybody in every organization, whether you're part of the people space or not, I think looking at things through the lens of your customer, it is a terrific place to start. So whether you're a marketeer like you, whether you work in sales, whether you work in finance, I think it is really easy to become absorbed in how things work for us in our team or our profession. I think that's less important. I care first about what it's like for the people we are serving. Now that might be in a commercial business, a customer, it may well be in the people space, staff or employees.

(36:25):

And if we think of employees the way we think of customers, then I think we would approach things differently sometimes because customers can choose to go to a different store to buy their product, customers can choose to spend their money elsewhere or just leave your business. Same is true with employees. There's a lot of choice out there. So there's something here about thinking like a marketeer and thinking about your customer rather than coming from a position of what's easy for you.

Ewan (36:58):

That sounds great. Just thinking like a marketer. That's music to my ears. Listen, Laura, that has been brilliant. I really enjoyable discussion. And

Laura (37:06):

Me too. I enjoyed it too. Insight.

Ewan (37:08):

Yeah, it was excellent. And thank you very much for your time today. So I look forward to catching up with you.

Laura (37:13):

Yeah, you too. Thanks.

Ewan (37:20):

Thanks for listening to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams, so don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can leave us a review, we really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.