S3E2 - Leading With Empathy with Gemma Burns

Welcome to Episode 2 of The Recruitment and Beyond Podcast.

In this episode, host Ewan Anderson, Marketing Director at Eden Scott, sits down with Gemma Burns, founder of Lilibet Coaching, for an in‑depth conversation on empathetic leadership and leading people through uncertainty. With more than 20 years of experience in HR across a range of industries, Gemma brings a practical and grounded perspective to one of the most important leadership topics facing organisations today.

Why does empathy matter more now than ever? How can leaders support their teams through anxiety, change and workforce challenges when they don’t have all the answers themselves? Gemma shares insights drawn from her career in HR and coaching, exploring why psychological safety has become a core leadership capability and how a leader’s self‑awareness and communication style can shape engagement, performance and retention.

Listeners will gain practical takeaways on how to lead with honesty and clarity without sugar‑coating reality, how vulnerability can build trust rather than weaken credibility, and how coaching‑style conversations can help leaders listen more effectively and navigate difficult moments with confidence and compassion.

Whether you’re an HR professional, a people manager or a senior leader, this episode offers thoughtful reflections and real‑world guidance on building stronger relationships at work and creating environments where people feel valued, supported and motivated to perform at their best.

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Transcript

Ewan Anderson (00:05):

Hi, and welcome to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. My name's Yuan Anderson. I'm the marketing director here at Eden Scott. This is your essential guide to navigating the ever-changing world of human resources and recruitment. We chat with industry leading figures to give you the inside track on growing and developing the very best teams. Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. We are joined today by Gemma Burns from Lilly Bit Coaching. Brilliant to have you with us today. Chairman, nice to see you.

Gemma Burns (00:40):

Thank you. And you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me on.

Ewan Anderson (00:44):

Not at all. Looking forward to today, we're going to have an interesting discussion around empathy and lean people through uncertain times and how you can navigate that, those uncertain times with anxiety and workforce challenges and obviously the challenges that everybody's facing in terms of the workforce right now. So we're going to look at that topic of empathy and how we do that. But before we do, it'd be great just to get a bit of insight from you, Gemma, on your career today and where you've been and how you've ended up where you're are today in terms of leadership coaching.

Gemma Burns (01:14):

Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in HR for just over 20 years now. Started at admin level, went and did a college course whilst my daughter was 1-year-old at the time, evening classes, and discovered that I really enjoyed all elements of hr. I've been lucky enough to go across many different industries, aviation, oil and gas, renewables, everything in between transport, public sector, private sector. And I started my more senior element into HR probably 10 years ago, stepping into more of the business partner side of things and really getting into more strategic view of how organizations and people come together,

(02:06):

The processes and the strategies that they come along with that. And I was lucky enough to, as part of one of my positions within the oil and gas sector, actually to be exposed to coaching awareness sessions. And from that actually had a personal experience where I put into practice what I had just started learning around coaching conversations and how they can impact the way forward with communication and relationships. And it was actually with my daughter within COVID, struggling with her mental health. And it was just one of these moments where I was struggling to understand or started thinking, how can I find out what's wrong with her? And just in that moment it was like a light bulb that said to me, right, ask a question and then sit quietly and actively listen, which is really difficult and we'll go into this with the empathy with leadership as well. But

(03:02):

It was one of these moments where I'm a fixer, I'm a solution finder, and if you ask close questions, all you're going to get is a yes no answer. But it really hit home that when I started changing the way the conversation did and how powerful coaching was, and that then led me into the coaching world alongside hr. Now it is very useful in everyday conversations at work home, within relationships in general and just how you can communicate differently. But it really did bring about that sense of, I guess acknowledgement and understanding the empathy and self-awareness and everything that comes into play really does make a huge difference within the workplace. So bringing my HR and my coaching experience together over the last be three, four years now since I started doing coaching, I'm now running my own consultancy business for HR consultancy, which can be any size of business, small businesses that need a bit of support or projects for large organizations as well as coaching managers, leadership, delivering coaching workshops, and also doing life coaching on the side. So it's a bit of a mix. Busy time, busy time. Yeah, it's great though. Great. It all comes together. Every element of my experience over the last 20 years absolutely pulls together.

Ewan Anderson (04:29):

Yeah, it's all linked, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it's all connected, which is kind of where we're going to chat today. And I guess for me it's just to start with why does empathy matter more now than suppose than it ever did? I dunno if that's the case, but it certainly seems to right now the empathy and being able to lead in that way. Why do you think that's important just now?

Gemma Burns (04:50):

I would say that previously empathy had been maybe a nice to have. Not everybody would have been I guess aware or consciously thinking we need to be more empathetic in this situation or take a more empathetic approach. But in my opinion, it's moved to more of a core leadership capability because psychological safety directly impacts performance and retention in the workplace. And I would say in my opinion, that there's probably quite a lot of leaders out there that underestimate how their own emotional state shapes a room and therefore their own team's engagement and performance at the same time. It's about that inner self-awareness as well, giving people the benefit of the doubt, not always being reactive. Historically, there'll be managers that would use, I suppose, ego, defensiveness, and reactive behavior to lead a team. And that's not what people looking for these days. They definitely work more positively when they've got a closer working relationship and that trust is there and that psychological safety as I mentioned.

Ewan Anderson (06:06):

Yeah, I think that's right. Actually you touched on it right at the start there about it being a nice to have for a long time now actually. But nowadays, mindsets have changed and approaches have changed and people expect that that's the sort of working relationship they want to have. So from your perspective, what does empathetic leadership look like in practice? What are some of the things that people would be looking out for?

Gemma Burns (06:27):

I would say first and foremost, we can't lead people if you don't understand yourself. So more around the inner leadership first.

(06:39):

So I would encourage anyone to influence their teams by leading with consistency, empathy, and clarity. But being consistent with it is important because that is what will build that trust within your team's relationships. And it's more of the emotional intelligence now. It's as I say, the self-awareness and your inner understanding of yourself to be able to go, how do I react in a certain situation? What am I bringing to the table as a leader? And being able to give space for conversations to happen as well, because loyalty, positive performance, positive working culture all comes down to that communication and relationships at the end of the day.

Ewan Anderson (07:31):

Yeah, communication is such a vital part of that whole process, isn't it? But actually honesty and communication and the openness, I think that's key to this, isn't it? So what are the biggest mistakes that leaders make when they're navigating that uncertainty, do you think?

Gemma Burns (07:49):

I would say that a lot of leaders will rush to try and provide certainty in a situation of uncertainty, if that makes sense. But they will rush to go and try and give answers that perhaps they don't have in that moment. But people will appreciate having connection and honesty in the first instance to be able to say, I can't give you an answer right now. I don't know exactly what's going on at the moment, but I am here to support you and to be able to try and navigate through this as best we can together. So the mistake to rush into answers when you don't necessarily have them is probably where leaders make it more difficult for themselves because in that moment they can't do it. And it also, I think there's another mistake that can sometimes happen is that leaders will underestimate how much their own stress is projecting into a situation. Now we've all been there

(08:58):

Personally, professionally, you are stressed out yourself and you're trying your best to maintain patience and try and maintain that resilience within a situation. You are the leader, you're trying to be that role model. And it is really difficult when you're shouldering things yourself to maintain that situation and be a positive leader. And it's completely normal, it's human, but you do need to maintain that role model, I suppose, give that clarity within the moment as much as you can provide clarity, but as the same with connection and the honesty along with it. So don't jump into things, try and not be too reactive.

Ewan Anderson (09:47):

Yeah, I think there's a step before that. There's that because you're absolutely right. There's that nervousness to say, look, I'm the leader, so I need to be able to project, I need to give people the answers I need to project strength and certainty and so on.

Ewan Anderson (10:01):

But if you're the type leader who's going out there and said to your team, look, this is how we're going to be. There's a vulnerability here. I'm going to be vulnerable to you. I don't have all the answers because I think there's a nervousness to think that a leader, my team, need to know that I know the answers. And it's not always the case, is it? I think you need to show a bit of vulnerability in that situation.

Gemma Burns (10:20):

No, exactly. And it's human, it's showing vulnerability as well. Well, it's my opinion that I would say that it's a strength. It's not a weakness. Allowing people to see that you are human and that things affect you too, and that difficult times will come and they will always come within business. We never know what's going to happen economically. There's factors outside externally that we just can't control. And all you can do is control in the moment and how you can support people

Ewan Anderson (10:55):

And see with the leaders have got to communicate difficult decisions, difficult. There's difficult things that need to be put out there to the organization. So how do they do that with empathy without sugarcoating the reality? There's the reality here, and you need to be able to tell people that, but you don't want to sugarcoat it, but you need to be clear with the communication, don't you?

Gemma Burns (11:16):

Yeah. It is about maybe softening the message. You can soften it without sugarcoating it as such, being able to give people the reality so that they can prepare themselves for potentially a worst case scenario or as I said, providing as much transparency as you can in that moment. If you don't know the answers, then be honest about it because people will respect you more for it at the end of the day and be able to come to you and have a conversation. It's much more about being able to acknowledge the human impact that's coming along and that's where the empathy would come in in that situation. You can still be empathetic without being, I think that word soft or fluffy comes around when you're talking about being empathetic or being nice in a situation. That's not what it needs to be. It is just being understanding. And as I say, understanding that and accepting the human impact that comes along with uncertainty in certain situations.

Ewan Anderson (12:18):

And I think that's changing, but I do still think there's that mindset of it a bit fluffy. Well, let's how to describe it, but you're right, Fluffy's probably the best or not that it's a sign of strength to be able to say, look, I don't have all the answers, but I can help. We can work through this together. I think it brings people together. If you're that open, honest leader

Gemma Burns (12:41):

And the things that will bring you closer together are difficulties. And that's true within your personal life and in the workplace because you will form more connections with people if you're going through something difficult together. And being understanding, even knowing your teams, take time to understand your teams, get to know what they're doing in their home life, know what gets the best out of them, what is their home situation with their support structure with their kids, what might they be worrying about in that moment? Because you can have an open conversation with them if you understand them better. And again, they're more likely to be more honest and open with you if that's the case.

Ewan Anderson (13:27):

Yeah, and I think that we touched on that slightly before, but that's exactly, isn't it. A good leader will go there and make the time to find out, as you say, about whole life, about personal life, to have that personal connection. You can't have empathy. It's not just something you turn on and turn off. You have to build that. And to do that, you have to then learn about your team. And again, that gives you the strength as a leader to know that your team will take it in the way it's meant in terms of, look, I don't have the answers, but let's work through it together.

Gemma Burns (13:54):

And being able to say, if you need to come and talk to me, I'm here. Or if there's something worrying you about something, just come and talk to me. And having that openness, you can have a positive working relationship with someone and have that kind of working relationship and understanding without it being crossing a line or being too personal. And people will come to you if they feel comfortable to do so.

Ewan Anderson (14:27):

Absolutely. I suppose that touches on the next question, which is around retention engagement. How does empathy influence employee engagement and retention essentially?

Gemma Burns (14:37):

I've mentioned it already, but the psychological safety aspect and there's a lot more awareness around that in recent years as to how psychological safety impacts an individual's performance and also we'll encourage them to stay within an organization that they feel safe in. And when looking at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, for example, safety is ultimately the thing that we all need, whether it's financial, emotional, it's something that we, and physical, obviously it's something that we all need as a foundation layer in order to be able to allow everything else to go into fit nicely into place. So if you are going to work, nobody wants, and when I say nobody, I mean the individual hr, the manager, nobody wants people dreading coming into work.

Ewan Anderson (15:33):

No, no,

Gemma Burns (15:34):

It's not productive. It's not conducive to a positive working environment or a positive working culture overall. And if you want to have people working to their best, they need to have that sense of, I feel safe. I feel like I am able to put my best into my work because I am valued. I am getting the development that I want. I can have positive conversations with my team or my manager. All these elements are surrounded by the psychological safety piece that does come with, naturally comes with empathy and the right conversations, but then will have that knock on effect in a positive way with performance and engagement and therefore retention. At the end of the day, people will stay where they, I mean doing on, there aren't a lot of elements that come into it if you can't develop any further where you're working or there's something else, there's an external factor that's always going to happen.

Gemma Burns (16:40):

But if you had a for job and in one you felt that you were valued and you had those connections at work and you felt like you had a safe space and you could talk to your manager, a lot of people would pick that over. Even a slight wage increase, money isn't always the first. And I've found that over the years in terms of engagement surveys and conversations, a lot of people, unless it's a huge pay rise or somebody comes in and offers you 20,000 more, you're probably not just going to say, I get all really well when my manager, so now I'm just going to stay where a lot of factors will come into it. But it's a huge piece that will help retain people and especially since COVID times expectations and what's important to us, day to day has absolutely shifted,

Ewan Anderson (17:38):

Has changed, hasn't it. Absolutely. And just to touch on that psychological safety, can you just go into that wee bit just for those maybe that aren't familiar with it, just what are we

Gemma Burns (17:47):

Talking about nutshell? It is feeling like you can have an open conversation, you can be honest. You're not scared to be able to open up about something that is maybe concerning you, for example. It's quite hard to put into words. And because everybody's got different expectations as to what their comfort zone is, for example.

Gemma Burns (18:13):

So if there's someone that is more resilient than the next person, maybe a certain conversation to them wouldn't affect them in the same way. And it's the same with psychological safety, what your limits or what you would be looking for are going to be different to the next person. But psychological safety at the end of the day is how you emotionally feel safe and secure where you're working.

Ewan Anderson (18:40):

Okay. And you touched on this before in terms of hr, but I mean very often HR is the kind of emotional buffer during the tough times. They'll tend to take some of the emotional heat, I suppose. But

Ewan Anderson (18:52):

How do the HR practitioners look after themselves and how do they provide that buffer? I suppose

Gemma Burns (18:59):

It is very difficult as an HR individual, you're going to be exposed to a lot of things that can be emotionally draining and your wellbeing or your, I suppose, resilience and the boundaries that you set up in order to look after that. They're not, I mean I've mentioned nice to have already, they're not a nice to have. They're essential within that sort of role. You need to know what your boundaries are and how you can alleviate any pressure or stress that comes onto you. And that could be through peer support, taking time out for yourself, whether it's I have a really draining or potentially draining meeting coming up, how am I going to prepare myself for that as an HR leader or a leader in general managers, and I dunno if you've experienced this, but if you've ever gone through a redundancy process, for example, as an HR individual, you are acutely aware of the impact that that conversation is going to have on the person at the other side of the table or screen. And even if you've not been the person that's made a decision and had a direct input as to what's happening, you are having these conversations and you are literally seeing people break in front of you.

(20:25):

It is a horrendous situation to go through, but you are there to try and support the individual that is getting the news that their role is being made redundant and you could be having multiple of these conversations in one day.

(20:41):

So it's something that HR and any other managers that are dealing with conversations with people or being just an emotional support to someone, and even more so if you're naturally an empath, you are going to naturally take that added pressure and emotional stress there. So very, very important that anybody that's in a people support role do look after their wellbeing and know what those are. It could be different for different people. It could be exercise for one, it could be reading a book for another. Being outside could be someone's preference. Being in a gym could be someone else's, but it's knowing what that is for you and making sure that you take that time. Because building up that resilience again is essential within those roles.

Ewan Anderson (21:27):

And I guess it's so important to have that balance because if you try and take the emotion out of this situation to protect yourself, you lack the empathy then over the person or the other side of the table. But if you're

Ewan Anderson (21:40):

Too emotional, then affected yourself, you've got to try and find that balance, haven't you?

Gemma Burns (21:43):

Because

Ewan Anderson (21:44):

That emotion is such an important factor in that conversation, isn't it?

Gemma Burns (21:48):

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Ewan Anderson (21:51):

So how can HR build the leadership capabilities around listening, psychological safety, that sort of stuff? How can they HR teams look to try and build that in their teams?

Gemma Burns (22:01):

I would say that it's developing it more as a leadership skill rather than a behavioral trait.

(22:12):

So encouraging leaders to have, I've mentioned coaching style conversations already, but encouraging leaders to use tools such as coaching style to be able to lead more authentically. So the active listening, giving space to teams, asking powerful questions, understanding situations, adding in that, the empathy piece, but it's developing it as more of a, say, a skill to being a more influential and authentic leader than it might be expected. That empathy is a personality trait, as I say, rather than a skill. I think it can actually be brought through by using different approaches to conversations to change the relationship landscape.

Ewan Anderson (23:05):

That is interesting because I was going to say that was one of my questions was is it skill? Is it something you learn? Is it something you develop or is it something you're born with? So obviously it's the same with a lot of these things. Some people are just born more empathetic. That's just the nature of life, I guess. But there is a way for coaching to bring that out. There is a way for coaching tools or frameworks to be able to help people to become more empathetic. Is it?

Gemma Burns (23:28):

Yeah. And it'll come down to personal experiences. Somebody might go through something personally that they can relate to somebody in their team, they can have a frame of reference, they can feel that there's a bit more value added to the conversation if they have been through something themselves. But also it's just, see, there is that self-awareness as in not projecting too much of your cell phone to someone. So there is some skills that need to that could be learned. And I mean, I would a hundred percent say that I've been in HR 20 years. I am not the same person that I was 10 years ago personally or professionally. I have conversations differently. I have different boundaries I've developed personally and professionally in ways that I probably would not have thought would happen 10 years ago. But then I've been through things, I'm not going to go through them all. We might be here all day, we don't have another hour. But I have, it's completely different stories, but I've been through a divorce with kids, for example. My career took a different shift because of COVID and that conversation I had with my daughter

Gemma Burns (24:52):

Because although I was learning the coaching style, what coaching was, actually, I'm going to be completely honest, because at the time we were rolling out a coaching culture where I was working, and it was more about we're going to have internal coaches, we're going to teach people how to have coaching conversations with their teams, with external clients, be able to get more potential clarity through conversation. And being an HR team member, I went on to the workshops just to understand what coaching was because we were rolling this out as an HR team. But then it was because I had that personal experience that I then realized the power of coaching, which then changed my career path. So if I hadn't have done that, if COVID hadn't happened, if my daughter wasn't struggling,

Gemma Burns (25:53):

Then maybe I wouldn't be doing this now.

Gemma Burns (25:56):

But, there's so many things can change your life the way that it goes, and it's something that is a constant moving target. If you want to change something, you can change it. The only barrier that you'll find is yourself. If something isn't working, if you're not having a positive relationship somewhere, whether that's at homework, you can take that move and do it. You can make that change.

(26:21):

But the empathy side and the understanding and the changing in life will all come through your personal experiences, but also what you'd expose to if you're the sort of person that maybe hasn't gone through something personally, but you find yourself working with a number of people that have, you will build that knowledge base and that experience to then be able to take that forward. So there's so many things that you can learn just by listening to people and having conversations and learn things about yourself. There's the Johari window that you can use for about how you perceive yourself, how others perceive you. You can learn things. It's a tool that you'd be able to find online if anybody wants to look into it. But it's about that 360 view of how people perceive you and you're maybe not aware of. So you've got to be able to take that constructive feedback as well as to, oh, so people see me as that. Maybe I don't give them space and I thought I did, but then being able to take that on board. So there's so many things that you can actually use as a tool in yourself and take on board and be able to change constructively in order to develop these skills.

Ewan Anderson (27:40):

I think it's so important to be open to that as well. So open to like you say, open to feedback, but open to changing yourself. I think there's no way you could try and help somebody become more empathetic if it's just not on their agenda. It's just not what they want to do. All the coaching, the worlds are going to help that, but they have to meet you halfway, don't they? And they come to the table with that. I think that's so

Gemma Burns (28:02):

Important. And the thing with coaching as well is you can only coach someone that wants to be coached.

Ewan Anderson (28:07):

Exactly.

Gemma Burns (28:08):

Yeah. So I'm trying to think of an example. So if I was to ask you a question and you're not willing to look within yourself and really find the answers in order to keep that conversation going, to make that transformational change, you're just going to go, I don't know. And then the conversation cuts dead. You can't force somebody to actually look within themselves or to have a deep conversation if they're not in it as well. So it's very relevant that you've got that two-way conversation. You can't force people to make change or to have a conversation. It's got to be done to them at the end of the day

Ewan Anderson (28:53):

And actually take it right back to the conversation where it started, around the business value of this in terms of retention, in terms of productivity around the team, all more productive. When there's a level of, like you say, the psychological safety, people feel safe, safe at work, and they'll be more productive. They're more likely to see, and there's a real business benefit there. And so there's

Gemma Burns (29:14):

Value. And if you were to look at your absence rates, for example,

(29:21):

And figure out how much production has been lost, whether it's utilization of time or whether you are in the manufacturing industry, and it's literally a production line, you'll be able to determine what that loss is to the business by absence rates or loss of utilization. So understanding what the impact is in a monetary value and quantifying it in a way that you go, if we had fully engaged, productive people within our workplace, what could that look like? And no matter what organization you're in, whether you're producing a product or a service, that is going to be worth much more to you. If you have people that are at work willing to be at work, want to be at work, and to put their best into it than you will. If somebody's like, oh, it's Monday morning again, I have to go to work and then just sit and do the minimum because they're being paid to do it. There's much more to be said about someone that stays in a job that you don't then have to go and spend recruitment fees and training fees. And there's a stat out there that's something like, I think it's between say, 1500 every time you take somebody on by the time that you get them trained and up to speed in order to do the job efficiently.

(30:46):

So you take your retention stats, take your absence stats and see what that looks like and go, if that was in a more positive place, what could that look like? How much more growth could we see? What would our turnover look like? It's all relative.

Ewan Anderson (31:01):

Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to finish up and as we go into another challenge in year, it'd be good just to get maybe two or three top tips on what HR teams and what leaders should be looking at in terms of developing that empathy, that communication skills throughout their organization.

Gemma Burns (31:18):

I would say that having a bit more awareness within your managers as a first step. Everything within an organization, no matter what your rolling out comes from the top. And we all know that that needs to be a buy-in from leadership that then cascades down into the organization. If you have positive behaviors at the top, it will seep through the rest of the business. And if you want to have positive team dynamics, if you want to have positive engagement, start with the top. What do your leaders look like? What do your managers need training? Do they need coaching themselves to determine that self-awareness piece? They understand their own barriers. What would help them be a more positive influence at work to then take that to the teams that then take it to the coface? It's going to go from your leaders to your middle managers to if they're client facing or if their internal relationships, it's all going to come through there. And I think that if there's awareness there that you can bring forward and then everybody has just a slight transformational change, that would make a huge shift if it was to go right the way through an organization. Brilliant.

(32:35):

Good.

Ewan Anderson (32:36):

Excellent. Listen, thank you very much for your time today, dig. It's been a really good discussion. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So if people are looking to get in touch with you, where's best to catch up with you.

Gemma Burns (32:47):

So I have a website, so it's lilette coaching.com, and it's the same as the Queen. It's my middle name just for anybody who's wondering why on earth I've got this name. It's my middle name that I ignored for probably about 35 years until, in fact, I'm going to be honest, it is a bit longer than that before the Princess arrived and then everyone all of a sudden understood what little bit was. So it's L-I-L-I-B-E-T coaching.com. I have a contact form through there. My email is gemma@lilettecoaching.com as well. And yeah, you can find me, reach out for a conversation or on LinkedIn as well, you'll find me there.

Ewan Anderson (33:29):

We'll put all the details down below and the initial notes, so make sure everybody gets the chance that. But listen, thank you again for your time and yeah, I'm sure we'll catch up again soon.

Gemma Burns (33:38):

You're very welcome. Thank you so much.

Ewan Anderson (33:46):

Thanks for listening to Recruitment and Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams, so don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can leave us a review, we really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.