S3E3 - Wellness at work isn’t a perk problem. It’s a leadership one.

Wellness at work continues to dominate conversations in HR and leadership, but many organisations are still missing the point.

In this episode of Recruitment and Beyond, Fiona McKee, founder of The HR Practice, joins us to discuss why wellbeing at work remains a challenge in 2025 and why surface-level solutions often fail. Fiona shares insight into the real drivers of stress and burnout, including job design, workload pressure, management capability, and organisational culture.

We explore common misconceptions around mental health at work, the limits of wellbeing perks, and what it truly means to create a human-centred workplace. Fiona also explains the commercial impact of getting wellbeing wrong and why leaders and managers must take ownership, rather than passing responsibility to HR alone.

This episode is packed with practical insight for leaders, managers, and HR professionals looking to build healthier, more sustainable workplaces where people feel supported and able to perform at their best.

Fiona McKee

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/fiona-mckee-5312508/

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Transcript

Ewan (00:11):

Hi, welcome back to the Recruitment and Beyond podcast. We are joined today by Fiona McKee, the founder of the HR Practice. Fiona, great to have you with us.

Fiona (00:21):

Thank you for inviting me in. So I'm the founder of the HR Practice as an HR consultancy for SME and Entrepreneurial Businesses, and we look after lots of companies throughout Scotland and the uk.

Ewan (00:38):

Brilliant. So I think today we wanted to talk about just why wellbeing still matters. So becoming and developing a human centered workplace in 2025 and why it's still important to really focus on your staff and their wellbeing. And it's not just necessarily about when they're in the workplace, it's the whole person. Why is wellbeing still a major issue in 2025? Surely we all know about it and we're all doing something about it these days. Why is it still a major issue?

Fiona (01:07):

So I think the problem is that we see a lot of initiatives happening, so maybe HR teams or management teams thinking we should do some initiatives. People may be a bit stressed at work, wellbeing days, mental health awareness, which are absolutely important, but we're not really dealing with the root costs, which is often job design. So seeing, hearing about lots of cuts and head counts and then people are getting more to do result have been overworked and overwhelmed on this. So I think we need to actually go back to what is the root problem. And I think that's coupled with a lack of management training for new managers and they're also overworked really hard and that can just result well results in burnout for a lot of people. But I think the key to all of this is really is the job design. Right,

Ewan (02:04):

Right. So that's interesting that she mentioned that, and this wasn't in our list of questions, but you talked about people not being necessarily ready and management training. Do you think that's something, some things people, they get promoted into a role and it involves people management and they just don't have necessarily the skills or the training to be able to deliver that. Do you think that's a part of the root cause that you talk about?

Fiona (02:28):

Yeah, definitely. And I think it's an age old problem. We promote people that are really good at their jobs and think they'd be really good manager. That's an actual route for them. And then we don't invest in the training and managers are then left with a title and a lot of responsibility, not entirely sure. So they're not trying to break things or doing say the wrong thing, but they're using their best endeavors without having some proper skills and training behind them. And it's very tricky and I think especially when it's about pressure and wellbeing initiatives where I think everyone's quite scared as well to see is to say their own thing. So I think that all of that in the mix certainly doesn't help matters.

Ewan (03:16):

So I guess that leads us on then to what are the biggest misconceptions that businesses have about wellbeing and mental health at work? What are the things that you see that people, they just get the wrong idea about?

Fiona (03:31):

I think a lot of businesses, I think we're expecting a lot more out of employees. I think it's often seen as wellbeing. They've just not got the resilience and it's almost blamed on the employee. So I don't think they were very resilient or stressful. That's more of a weakness and it's absolutely not. And I think back to this, is that job designed correct? Is it sustainable? Have we got enough support in place and big undertaking to do that? So of course everyone's running trying to catch up and I think the misconceptions are that, well, maybe the person's weak or why don't we just give them more benefits? So what if we have a yoga session in the office or maybe we'll offer gym memberships, maybe that would help address the issue, but it doesn't solve unreasonable workloads or long hours or poor management, any of that. And I think added to that, we'll often ask an engagement survey as well, let's ask a question about wellbeing. We'll see how everyone is, but actually it needs to do something with the result when you get it and the next wellbeing day or fruit in the office or gym memberships, it's just not going to cut it. And I think we really need to step back and understand what is the root cause.

Ewan (05:10):

Yeah, yeah, I mean that leads on nicely to the next question, which is very much around those perks. And I think for a lot of people, leaders perhaps think that it's about benefits or perks or like you say, fruit in the office or whatever it might be. But what is a human-centered workplace? What does that actually look like? Can you give us an example?

Fiona (05:32):

I think a human-centered workplace, having clear expectations on what is expected of you, consistent leadership,

(05:44):

And I say often listen now rather if you had to be would be inconsistent, bad, rather consistently bad I should say rather than inconsistent, just a nightmare. And I want have to be consistent good obviously, but it'd be better being consistently bad than inconsistent. So I think you need to be clear, you need to be fair and have flexibility and autonomy. I don't mean just let everyone work at home five days a week. If that's not your model, that's absolutely fine. But flexibility around about maybe taking breaks because more often than not people don't even get a lunch break or don't know they get a lunch break, but they don't take it feeling as well that you're safe to raise concerns. So if you've got concerns about your workload or the intensity is too long hours that you feel you can actually speak up about it because mental health, even today still something that people are afraid to speak about. So I think knocking down some of those barriers would really help a lot. And as I said, I really think we need to get the work design and make sure that we do have processes in place and that people can raise concerns if they have them. And it's not something that you've just got to go on with it or you're deemed as weak. If you mentioned stress,

Ewan (07:25):

Does this harp back as opposed to culture to a certain degree and that you mentioned there are some people either don't know they have a lunch break or have a lunch break and don't take it because other people in the organization don't take it either. Is that part of what comes from leadership is creating a culture where wellbeing is seen as important?

Fiona (07:46):

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is that presenteeism time for lunch breaks around here or because I probably get a lunch break, just don't time to take it. Or you feel that under pressure that actually taking a lunch break you feel set you back. But actually going out for a walk for half an hour or 10 minutes even and the day is probably a good reset and you'd refresh and you'd be able to start again. But it's in your head perhaps seen as I don't have time if I go and do that I could have got this, that and the next time. So I think that is a balance of people putting themselves under a level of pressure and also managers overloading people with work to do. So we're always checking their phones and I think that's the of reason to be like with flash away, go check that, see what that is. But it's just become the norm now everyone phones from work, so you've got about two phones potentially and you're always on. In fact, we see quite a lot now people saying, I don't expect you to reply because I'm sending the mail out of hours. You don't have to reply. I think I probably feel you do,

Ewan (09:06):

But again, that is a cultural thing, isn't it? We spoke to someone before who talked a lot about that is to say, look, I'm not expecting you. And I think that culture needs to be set from the top. So then it goes down into your management teams who can make sure people are doing that. I suppose to a certain degree. Is this about not necessarily having their own policies but having a leadership team who maybe don't implement them? Would that be the case of S you

Fiona (09:36):

Work with? Yeah, I think so. And I think as well, it's such a topic the government we're talking about and I'm not sure who there with the right to disconnect if the government I think would bring that in as policy. The right to disconnect kind of shows you the size of the problem really.

Ewan (09:53):

Yeah,

Fiona (09:55):

That disconnect. And it's not good for your wellbeing and your mental health.

Ewan (09:59):

Yeah, yeah. So I mean I guess one of the big questions is where do organizations go wrong and is it a focus thing, is it a consistency thing like you say, is it that they consistently demand things that are perhaps not relevant? Is it succession planning and not having the right people in job? You mentioned that maybe you're doing two people's jobs. Is it a lack of planning that wellbeing is fitted into those plans? Would that be right?

Fiona (10:31):

I think there'll be an element of that for sure. I also think it'll be that wellbeing is maybe treated as a project owned by hr. Well that's the stuff that the HR team do. They'll organize it and leadership aren't necessarily accountable for that. So that sets with the people team, they'll organize initiatives, but it's a much wiser, much wider problem than that. And I think as well when people in businesses are downsizing, they're not necessarily saying that, well the job doesn't need done anymore. They might say, look, we can stop doing that job, but in reality the job elements of that job still need done and therefore someone has got to do that. I think as well there'll be an element of offering things like EAP and lots of different things for mental health, which is fantastic that too many programs like that can be quite confusing.

(11:28):

And people go, oh, what one do I use? And I definitely think there's an element of lack of management training where managers actually aren't skilled in this area and then they're always scared to say anything in case it's the wrong thing. Especially now I think Claire, I've got so much protection for employees that managers a bit worried about if I said that, will I get into trouble? So yeah, I think it's a tricky environment and that's why we need to make sure those with the responsibility are very well trained and understand that they're accountable for it. People are working for these managers, they're not working for the HR team.

Ewan (12:18):

It's that ownership isn't it at management level to say, I'll just pass this responsibility on to HR because it's not my job, but actually it is your job as a manager too to help the person. And in terms of that, what sort of themes do you see that repeatedly come out from employees when they say they feel burnout or stressed or disengaged? What are the common things that you see in that?

Fiona (12:45):

So I think when people do say that I'm really stressed, I think everyone wants to help them. So went to the HR team or went to the manager and their automatic thing is let's figure this out. What can we do differently? But actually they put a stick in plaster on, maybe you need some time off maybe would that help? Or do you want to take a couple of days? Do you want to use, but no one's going back to what is it fundamental that's wrong in this job? What can we change in your role? So actually even if the person takes some time out, they're coming back to the same thing and actually they're worrying about, I can't go back to that because nothing's changed because there's been no thought of consideration in that organization side to think does something need to change? So I think that's one of the biggest challenges where there's a sort of lack of oversight.

(13:51):

And for me, HR puts the framework in place and the managers run within that framework. And I feel there needs to be a conversation that says, well, if we've got all these people who are stressed and they don't get me wrong, could be if it's only an odd person then it's potentially not a job design at all. But typically we are thinking about wellbeing organization, we just need to be certain that the jobs aren't overwhelming people and they can get through the work. They have got training and development to do the role because I mean you've got, wellness isn't just in the workplace so you've got outside clearly influences. You maybe get things on at home, it's really difficult if you come into your office or your work environment and then the same kind of pressures are there. So it's really difficult for people. I just think we're always on and it's a really challenging scenario to be, and actually it increases absence levels, so end up people are out the organization and those that are left are left to pick up the pieces so there's a higher chance that they also might go off.

(15:11):

So yeah, I think we need to take our heads out of the day-to-day and look and see what is going on in this organization, what do we need to do differently to stop this or put some interventions in place that are not a wellbeing day? What do we need to look at strategically to change in order for people not to be feeling that way? Because clearly people that are stressed are not doing their best job, they're just not doing their best job. And that's when mistakes happen and then it's double the work and the person feels under even more pressure. So it's really critical that the element's addressed.

Ewan (15:56):

Yeah. You touched on a few things in terms of the cost and I appreciate there's a personal cost here. There's there's a cost to the individual in terms of their wellbeing, but I think we've seen a few, I don't know if this is right or not, but almost a wellbeing fatigue and it's another cost of my business and do we really need to make this? Is it not something we can get round? And how do you help leaders and companies to really understand the value? I think you almost touched on it there in terms of absence and so on, but how do you help them to see the relevance and the value of making sure there's a wellbeing culture at the organization?

Fiona (16:36):

So I think the key things really are is looking at your absence stats, looking at your turnover of people leaving your business, how much is that costing actually to backfill roles, recruit them. The gap in terms of the customer experience, your customer base, that has a huge impact on your customers while they're going to stay with you impacting your revenue if someone goes off and they're required to carry out a job. So I think actually saying, well, how much does that cost?

(17:14):

And then looking at, well how much would it cost actually if we make to hire someone else to be able to do the job properly back to the job design without the pressure, then I'd be willing to be significantly cheaper. So I think it's key that you understand, you have a commercial conversation with your leadership teams to say, well this is how much it costs us in turnover and absence and unauthorized absence and whatever that is versus how much it would cost you to look at having to overall making sure that that's correct and the right shape really. And jobs change all the time. I mean gone are the days made a job description, but that was your job, your first aid. But anyway, so we still have role profiles and things, but they're not exactly referred to the way they were back in the day because we've all got different agile can do attitudes and yet absolutely that's essential. But we do also need to be aware that we're not hiding behind can do attitudes actually that's put people under too much pressure.

Ewan (18:39):

And what is the role of HR in that whole process? So of HR team's role in creating that human-centered workplace, what should HR own and what should the leaders own? Where's the balance?

Fiona (18:53):

So I think HR can provide the data and the insights and then support the managers really with creating the framework, policies, tools, training, so that our managers are capable and the capable leaders that understand the responsibilities and almost create the framework of what the wellbeing strategy is and then for the managers to roll that out and to be accountable for the actual delivery of that. So I think it's a real partnership model. So it's working together with the managers to make sure that they know their responsibilities and the HR team are clear about their responsibilities and it's not HR creating denmark's thinking. I think this would be quite good. It's actually working with the managers and the leaders to understand what are the challenges, what challenges are you facing in your teams, and then building something as a result of that. And I think for leaders, they need to demonstrate the correct behaviors that should be living the values, looking at what is the workload and making sure that we're not overloading people.

(20:12):

And I'd say early intervention. So actually right when you spot something, stress or conflict because it comes out in different ways. So when you spot that as really dealing with that and having a safe environment that people feel that I know this is too much, I'm going to see my manager. It's very often not the case and they feel like I don't want to say anything. They'll think I can't do this or I'm weak, or No, I'll just keep going, I'll keep going until they can't go any longer enough, they end up off sick and it becomes hard to come back to the job.

Ewan (20:52):

Yeah, I think that, and again, we've had a number of podcasts now where communication, but creating a safe space for people to communicate, to talk to their manager and to be open and honest. I think the open and honesty part of this from both sides is so vital, isn't it? I think that's how you find resolution rather than putting barriers up or assigning a cost that or a value to, it's actually about open, honest communication will help us all get to the right solution

Fiona (21:21):

No matter what the problem is. And I think there's got to be that trust and not, no one wants to feel judged. And at that point in time when you're talking about stress and mental health, you're very vulnerable and you're not going to go to someone that's going to judge you and say, well, for goodness sake, everyone else can do it. Or there's not a problem here. The problem's you and you like to think I wouldn't do that, but you rather do. So unfortunately, so then the person feels, I can't go to them, some other options for my gp, I'm going to have to go to my GP and get time off and they might need medication. And actually having managers that are appropriately trained and skilled at being managers can really take a lot of those issues away. And you say, listen, what's the problem?

(22:21):

Let's see how we can fix this. Can I do something to help you? And even I think just being listened to can often be so helpful because you have been listened to, you've been taken seriously and you don't feel that someone's judging you or making derogatory comments when you're out of the room because that is a very vulnerable place. And I think people in that place and their minds will have a tendency to think, will I say something, will I not? And you just need to have that. It just needs to be safe. And this isn't about being soft, this is about putting the right environment in place so people can talk about mental health. You have no problem talking about a broken arm. So you need to feel that you can talk about mental health.

Ewan (23:18):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess looking forward, what sort of practical things could people put in place then even if they have a limited budget, what sort of simple practical things could they put in place to try and help create that environment?

Fiona (23:36):

I think for sure training managers. So I think getting the managers skilled will be absolutely key. You better investing in that. Investing in having a wellness day. I think having clear values as well, and living those values is really important. And most people's values have got trust in them somewhere. So living those values, skilling your managers, and it doesn't have to be a big 3D training course, be an intervention run by hr, educating the managers and the leadership team on what to look out for, how to handle it, who to signpost to, because we're not expecting managers to be mental health practitioners or hr. And so we're saying that you wouldn't know all the answers, but here's how to signpost people to other services that can help. And I think those combined will definitely help. And I think things like checking in, check in with your team, whether that's a first thing in the morning or last thing or even a few days a week, just look, what's the work load?

(24:53):

What do you got on? Do you need the hand with that? Is there any blockers there? Even just that quick catch up every day for 15 minutes can make a massive difference because the manager will then become aware very quickly if someone's rhyming off like 50 tasks, they've got to do that day. So I think all of that combines, it doesn't cost a lot of money to do that because companies don't have budgets, they don't have a spare pot of money to spend on this. But actually, as I said earlier, if you look at what it's costing the business, they'd be making a saving. But those small practical steps like training the managers, checking in, teaching managers and leaders where to sign posts to that combined and building environment of trust and following your values, you still cost don't cost very much at all, but actually could make a massive difference and save the business a lot of money.

Ewan (26:00):

Brilliant. Listen, that's been fascinating. That's been really an interesting discussion and I think a lot of it does come down to, as you say, creating the right environment that's open and honest and signposting people in the right direction. It doesn't have to be costly, it doesn't have to be overbearing, it's just about creating opportunities for people, isn't it? Yeah. Sounds great.

Fiona (26:22):

Yeah, absolutely.

Ewan (26:23):

Thank you very much for your time, Fiona. And then if people want to get in touch with you at the HR practice, do you want to give us your email address? Are you on LinkedIn as well?

Fiona (26:32):

So Fiona McKee at the HR practice co uk I have to say. And I regret having such a long business, but yeah, you can get in touch with me there or connect with me on LinkedIn.

Ewan (26:48):

Brilliant. Well, we'll put it all in the show notes, but thanks again Fiona and look forward to catching up again soon. Thanks for listening to the recruitment at Beyond podcast. Hopefully there was plenty of insight for you to take back to your teams, so don't forget to subscribe and never miss an episode. And if you can leave us a review, we really appreciate all the feedback and support we get. It makes a massive difference.