The Office: Navigating the Present and Predicting the Future with Jason Makowski.
The Office: Navigating the Present and Predicting the Future with Jason Makowski.
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Max Grover
Ow, ow, ow, ow! All right.
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Chris Prins
Hello, This is Chris Burns and Max Grover with the Commercial Alliance of Realtors, West Michigan podcast. This is episode number three, and we have Jason Murkowski with us today from. And I so thank you, Jason, for being part of the program.
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Jason Makowski
Thanks for having me.
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Yeah, buddy. In the new Studio two.
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Jason Makowski
That's right.
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Max Grover
I love it. I've probably got headphones on. Pros. Pros at everything. Is it everything? Yeah. Try to be. So, here to talk about office and real estate and anything else. Kind of Jason's journey to and getting into real estate. So I guess just start out maybe where where's Jason from?
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Jason Makowski
So Jason's.
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From.
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Jason Makowski
My.
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Side business.
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Jason Makowski
I don't know how many people.
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Do what field to them.
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Jason Makowski
But yeah, I grew up in Kentwood. I went to Grand Valley Community College, then Grand Valley, spent my whole life here and now live about 30 minutes south and middle. So I'm married. Three kids ranging from 27 down to 11. So.
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Now I got your volume on. Can you hear yourselves now?
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Jason Makowski
Yeah. So, so wide, wide range of age. But it's been a lot of fun and kind of got introduced to real estate in college at Grand Valley State through actually a local appraiser, Doug Adams, who happened to be one of my professors, love the class, never had the stomach for getting into a commission based sales job. So never even thought twice about it, but happened to be at UPS where I spent the first ten years while I was finishing up college.
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Jason Makowski
And then a couple of years after college and just decided that wanted something different. And Michael Kagan, who's in the commercial real estate arena, was a good friend of mine, and he said, You know, I worked for Stan, was in Ski, who had his own shop, local shop here in Grand Rapids, was in Ski Group, formerly SJ was in Ski and when I interviewed with him and figured if I'm going to make the move, now's the time to do it.
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Jason Makowski
So popped into commercial real estate and that was back in 2004.
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2004, kind of What was the market like in oh four?
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Jason Makowski
It was good 0406 but I was still new getting my feet wet, so I didn't know any better. But looking back, the market was good. And then we had the roller coaster ride from 2007 through and to 2009 2010, and then things kind of took off in 2011 and never looked back.
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Chris Prins
So when you got started in 2004, what was it like getting into it or did they start you up like a research role or was it just give you a phone book, give you a phone and say, start pounding the pavement?
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Jason Makowski
I remember walking in the first day and not even really knowing what to expect. And I walked into my office, which was a nice windowed office along the perimeter of the building, and there was a desk, a phone book and a chair. And the counsel that was given to me was start calling people, you know, and letting them know you're in commercial real estate.
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Max Grover
Oh, my goodness, good luck.
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Jason Makowski
So I got to know agents in the office and just kind of cherry picked, asked if I could help on stuff. And that's kind of how I got started. I owe it to everybody else because without them, they would. Those that helped me in the office at the onset of my career, I probably wouldn't be where I am.
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So and being so you did the UPS thing for ten years. What were you? Warehouse? Were you driving the truck?
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Jason Makowski
Yeah. Started out unloading and loading trailers, then got into a part time operation on the management side and then got into finance and accounting before I finished my degree at Grand Valley. It took me several years. My wife and I got married young, had a child, you know, 21 years old, weren't in school, but wanted to finish our college education.
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Jason Makowski
So we both worked jobs, opposite schedules to allow for us to be home with our daughter and then got a lot of help from family. And then that kind of delayed things on the college front for a while. But we both got her degrees from Grand Valley and everything and that.
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That's what I was going to ask too, with like 04050607 CS Finally start getting some traction, I'm sure, and building some relationships and maybe making some sales and leases and then all of a sudden it fell apart or what it look like.
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Jason Makowski
That's true, but it probably wasn't as bad for me because I didn't even know what to expect at that point from a, you know, income and business potential perspective because first three, three years you're kind of spinning your wheels, getting your feet wet, gaining some traction. So it was more of a gentle climb. There wasn't really any big dips because I was at the lower end and.
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You weren't used to some certain level of income that came crashing down on some with cars and house payments and.
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Jason Makowski
School. Correct. And I was I was pretty sheltered from that perspective just because of the fact I wasn't in the business that long before that all took place. But then there was that elongated period, call it 727 to 2010 where I wasn't gaining much momentum either. Kind of just flat lining for the most part with modest upticks. And then 2011, I kind of took off, which I'm probably one of the late bloomers in the business, because it took me six or seven years to really get going where some most people within 2 to 3 years are up and running.
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Jason Makowski
If you're if you're meant to be in this business within two or three years, you should you should know. Yeah.
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Chris Prins
So and you mentioned to that you kind of like worked with a handful brokers within your office. Who were some of those individuals that you maybe teamed up with or kind of tried to pick their brain on advice?
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Jason Makowski
So Stan was pretty Stan was in ski was no longer with us, was pretty instrumental Jim bad aluko who was kind of stands right hand man Todd Pearson who's now I think at Green Ridge more on the residential side. Doug Peterson, who I don't think is even in the industry anymore. Those are some of the names that I remember Michael Kagan just from more of a.
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Was a commercial strictly or was it a mix of residential and.
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Jason Makowski
Commercial? Yesterday was strictly commercial.
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Chris Prins
Okay. Okay.
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And so you're doing you're hanging out with them, watching them. Oh seven or eight Were some of those guys dropping out and moving on to other? Yeah, I would.
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Jason Makowski
Clearly say some of those guys were definitely enduring during the struggles in oh seven through 2010, and those were the guys that had been around a while that, you know, probably were at higher income levels to start with. So you take a dip from what you're accustomed to and it's a pretty significant Deb, it's a lot different than me where I wasn't really dip in.
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Jason Makowski
I was just taking me longer to build. Sure.
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So and then from SJ was ski to then and I was in ski. What was that. How did all that.
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Jason Makowski
So that transition took place when I 2011 and that was okay.
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So it was kind of coming up and out. Correct. And that's okay.
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Jason Makowski
And that was part of I think stands plan to, you know, be able to ride off in the sunset. When he was ready. Stan was one of the only bigger independent shops at that point, too. So but I think a lot of it was predicated on Stan wanted. And, you know, when he was ready, an exit strategy. I don't know whether he ever would have officially retired.
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Jason Makowski
I think he would still be working. If he were still here.
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He'd still be out selling me today. Yeah, guaranteed.
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Jason Makowski
But I owe everything, honestly to him and the other people in the office that I started with, because I literally would not be where I am if I didn't have guidance, support opportunities to work on things to kind of get my feet wet and get going. So but the transition, when we merged with any I was super smooth, probably smooth as I think it could get.
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Jason Makowski
And that's been very prosperous and good for everyone involved in it since the merger took place.
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Chris Prins
And when you guys are in the Grandville location, then there.
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Jason Makowski
Were no we were over at East Paris and Sparks round the corner stand on the building there, which is now, I think, a law firm. I think the law firm Stanger and Stanger bought it from Stan and then we migrated downtown. That was part of the negotiations. We'd have a presence downtown to go.
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And how many agents are you guys up to? It? And I, I want to.
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Jason Makowski
Say approximately.
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26.
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Jason Makowski
So we have an office in Grand Rapids, and we have another office smaller in Kalamazoo that kind of covers Kalamazoo. We're down to the Indiana bordering on the lakeshore.
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Okay. Wow. 25 agents And how many were there? How many were there when you from the SJ was in ski into any I was in ski to growth wise is a been that's great.
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Jason Makowski
The people that I are the notable people I can think of that came over with the merger were like Jim Battle, Luke Stuart King, Mary and Stan Gary Steer who was retired semi-retired. And I want to say that's probably it.
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It's it's been pretty good but they're all older since coming together as and I was in ski has been pretty good growth and your partner and yeah.
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Jason Makowski
So then we merge 2011 2013 Jim Decker was our managing director at that point. He was ready to move out and retire, so I bought his interest or shares 2013 and then acquired some additional interest about a year ago along with a few of the other partners.
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So that's awesome. And so I always really like the the people that you guys, the shop and you guys all are very aligned and have. You can just tell that you guys understand the culture of your shop and everyone's got that alignment. I always appreciate that about you guys.
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Jason Makowski
Well, we appreciate that comment. I think we have selfishly speaking very good cast and crew, a lot of experienced people. I've been in the business a long time. The Doug Tejas is the Stu King was the Mary and the Rod. All the rings, the bill Tyson. So the list goes on. The majority of the people in our office have been in the business a long time.
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Yeah, Yeah. And then now you guys add in some young bucks too, and seems like they're starting to get some good traction and. Yeah, it's awesome.
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Jason Makowski
Yeah. Paul Auster Bonds an up and comer.
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Chris Prins
Buying stock now.
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Jason Makowski
Yeah Kevin O'Reilly is is is coming up our.
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Good Yeah so and then most of your focus in commercial real estate has been in the office market correct. Yeah. Yep yep. And from that perspective what's that been like that transition from call it 2011 12 coming up and out and into now through COVID and post COVID and kind of take us through that and maybe outlook for office in the future.
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Jason Makowski
So coming out of 2010, 2011 office really took off, at least for me. And then COVID hit and it's been very hit and miss. As you might expect, ever since COVID, there's been some very positive success stories that have been a result of that. And there's been some negative stories. Companies downsizing. Yeah.
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Mm hmm.
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Jason Makowski
Letting people letting their employees go remote or doing a quasi remote, quasi in-person theme. From my perspective, I hope companies bring people back to work. I think.
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It seems.
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Jason Makowski
Like since about.
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Seems like indecision as a whole is kind of like where the market's out of like what direction is everything going to go in? Is it going to be that quasi? Is it going to be back in person? As you know, if the market slows, get more competitive and bring people back in? And I don't think anyone really knows.
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Jason Makowski
I think that's been pretty clear since COVID. I think there's still companies, you know, several years after the fact that are still kind of in decision making mode, haven't figured out what they want to do. We've seen the bigger nationals, a lot of them scale back in size and contract, you know, still have some in-person presence but have a good chunk of their workforce working remotely.
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Jason Makowski
You know, I look at Acura. Sure. Right across the parking lot from our building downtown. I mean, that building was built and vacant for a lengthy period of time. And now that building is buzzing, all kinds of activity. People are back at work. So that's been great to see. I mean, they're already talking about I think they actually have expanded into some additional space downtown because they've already outgrown, from what I've heard about that building, which is kind of crazy.
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And then you see you see other things like from, you know, I don't do a ton of downtown office or anything, but, you know, spectrum polling is going to be dropping a lot of leases around town as is. They're building their own tower downtown right now. And I can't imagine as a medical provider, building general office space and not planning to use it.
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So I feel like that's kind of a marker for where things are headed to, where it's like it at some point people are going to go back to work and whether it's, you know, a little bit more relaxed and how and when you're in the office, but still having that office space.
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Chris Prins
Yeah, I think it also has to do with just the employment with such few employees out there. So employers have to get creative on how they get people in. But if they're motivated to stay at home, we have to keep them. Then let's just keep them at home. But I have heard from one company that their i.t guys, they basically said you don't have to come into the office because if they if we force them into the office, they will look for alternative opportunities.
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And and even back to when with mark and sara when we were talking to him he said you know, he felt like some of the layoffs that are happening from the big tech companies are to shed and bring people back in and say, you have to work in the office if you're coming back here with these layoffs. And I don't I don't know if that's.
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Chris Prins
Yeah. And I also look at it. I'm like from a culture standpoint, how do you build culture over Zoom meetings, especially when you're trying to retract some of these kids from colleges and universities and bring them into an office setting and say, okay, well, for the next six, eight months, you're only going to be on Zoom. You can't be around your team, you can't collaborate, work together.
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Oh, you have to come in. You got to sit at this desk, open your phone book, start making calls.
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Chris Prins
Do the old Jason wait for you in office. Close the door. There's a phone book and the phone.
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Yeah, it'll be. That'll be interesting to see. I think. I mean, you're not. I can't imagine you're just sitting downtown at your office right now twiddling their thumbs. You're still.
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Jason Makowski
No. You're actively talking to tenants, trying to figure out what companies are doing, what direction they're going, and who is bringing people back to work that were working previously remote, just trying to stay in front of that. So you create opportunities to help them either contract and into less based on what they current or grow into more space.
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Jason Makowski
And like I said, there's been some pretty good success stories. We've had case in point, BDO pre-COVID leased 26 27,000 square feet over at 5300 Patterson which people coin is the Zondervan building. That's but it's known as that whole ass. It's been completely redone. They've done a phenomenal job with it. It looks great. But BDO came to us and said, Hey, we want to get out of about 19,000 square feet, keep a presence, but we want to shed about 19,000 square feet.
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Jason Makowski
And a couple of the agents from Bradley locally, we had a group they were working with that was actually looking for more space. So we ended up subleasing BDO Space through, I want to say 31 or 32, which was the end of their term with this local group, and they took about just shy of 14,000 of the 19 and then BDO said we'll just keep the balance of the space.
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Jason Makowski
Wow. So that kind of stuff is going on, seen as a nationals contracting and then locals are slowly but surely backfilling the space that the Nationals are pulling out of.
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And and I feel like even and I don't know if this is right, tell me if it's wrong, but from my perspective, it seems like there's still a lot more indecision about the downtown market than the suburban office market seems to be doing fine in filling and leasing and moving and buyers. So out there for that.
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Jason Makowski
The majority of the activity we've been seeing today has been more in the suburbs of downtown is still hindered by convenient available parking, which has been a continual issue for the last ten years, You know, even through COVID even now today, there are still several ramps that have no availability. And unfortunately, companies looking to place their operations downtown or relocate from building to building B, if they can't find convenient parking, a lot of times that's the roadblock or deter from them making a move.
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Jason Makowski
And we've lost deals because of that.
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And so what is parking per space going in a ramp downtown right now? Because it always blows my mind every time I think about that.
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Jason Makowski
On the employees, on the low end, call it 150 to 160 and on the high end like I know Alice across from a I think the most recent number I heard was 235 per month per space.
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Times X amount of employees and yeah.
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Chris Prins
And how many those spaces I know we're not so always about like parking ramp kind of guys, but how many those spaces are currently available. Are you seeing some tenants kind of just renew the lease for maybe a year or two and hold onto those parking spots? Because the other thing too is I've always heard like there's not many spaces available for folks there.
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Jason Makowski
There are, from what we've seen, I look at there's several ramps downtown, like 38 commerce. They have a an attached ramp that hasn't had availability like public noted availability in it for I don't know how long you're on a waiting list the ramp right across from 90 and I'm in row attached tonight and tomorrow city controlled same deal trying to get parking for a tenant.
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Jason Makowski
I'm putting in that building currently and they have no availability they're on a waiting list. So those are two notable ramps downtown. Ellis tells us rhetorically that he doesn't really have any availability in his ramps. Now, he's graciously found ways to accommodate us, but he continually tells us the availability isn't there.
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That's that's absolutely wild. And I feel like we're not quite we're not a Chicago market yet where people are used to walking, riding the bike, taking public transportation to get downtown. Everyone still wants that convenience in Grand Rapids because it is easy to get around and everything. It used to be 15 minutes everywhere. Now it's closer to 20 minutes or get everywhere, but it's still 20 minutes and you're across town in any direction.
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Jason Makowski
So and like I said, parking is a big deal. Tenants, tenants are really honed in on that. They want convenient close proximity to whatever space they lease. And if they can't get that, that probably hinders them potentially from making that move.
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Chris Prins
You mentioned there's a lot of activity in the suburbs. Is there a specific suburb category that's been seeing more and more? I know there's a new office building that went off Byron Center and I think 64th. Yep.
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Jason Makowski
So that was built pre-COVID. Our firm has been marketing that. We've now finally creeped over 50% occupancy. I think we're in that 55% range. We've got, I want to say two plus or -8000 square foot suites and then a probably plus or -4000 square foot suite still available. But I think that building was hindered. It was built it was built 100% spec in an area that we hadn't seen like significant demand for office.
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Jason Makowski
And then COVID here, companies are having a hard time committing to ten year leases that kind of put.
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So then how do you end with that? The question becomes like, who's paying for the buildout then, Right? I mean, that's got to be the the hard part.
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Jason Makowski
So that that has been a challenge, especially on the longer term leases where you're starting from an unfinished shell space and building it out from scratch, making the economics on that work. The only way to make it work is to do, you know, bare minimum seven years, probably more ten years plus on the lease side. But we have had some companies we put pain rest in that building.
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Jason Makowski
They took one whole floor, which is about 17,000 square feet that I think was done during COVID, if I remember correctly, But the whole mental health therapy counseling arena has gone gangbuster even more so as a result of COVID, and that has carried forward that or we're not expecting any slowdowns on that front from what we're hearing there.
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Jason Makowski
So that those arenas have been very active counseling groups, therapy groups, mental health groups, pre-COVID. We saw a lot of activity like in the drawing a blank. There were a couple other specific user types that were running around growing.
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I mean, daycare has been.
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Jason Makowski
Daycare.
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Center has been.
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Jason Makowski
Expanding since a new day.
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And I think it seems to be, you know, money is flowing into those different areas from the Fed, from the state into the counseling, into the therapy, into the child care because of the cost and the need continues to go up.
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Jason Makowski
So autism, that was another big we saw a lot of activity in the autism arena as a result of insurance companies starting to provide insurance reimbursement for some of those services. That seems to have slowed down for one reason or another. We haven't seen the activity. We were seeing pre-COVID there. But medical slow, it seems, private practices moving around.
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Jason Makowski
And then on the office front, just a continued lack. As crazy as this may sound of inventory to purchase, there is so little out there, good quality product that even today with rates being above where they you know, they've been over the last several years, if someone can find something that serves a purpose that wasn't out there before, they're still pulling the trigger.
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Jason Makowski
They're buying it with the intent. They'll just refinance when rates come down.
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Know And would you say most from the medical side, are most of those groups wanting to own their real estate as opposed to lease it or.
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Jason Makowski
We saw a big push pre-COVID? I don't know today if that's still the case, But pre-COVID, there were a lot of private practices. And case in point, if you if you drive the East Paris corridor, a lot of those new buildings that were built were specifically for a group or a partnership of developer and a private practice or a couple of private practice that want to own or have an ownership interest in their building.
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Global hands and West Michigan dermatology.
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Jason Makowski
For.
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Up and beautiful buildings, both of them. So yeah.
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Chris Prins
What have you seen like from for playing designs in the office setting kind of going from pre-COVID? I feel like there was a maybe a push for more, more open office setting and maybe like post-COVID. What does that look like nowadays?
00;23;46;14 - 00;24;06;26
Jason Makowski
The the deals we've been working on since the inception of COVID, it's been more private office oriented. So I feel like in time that's going to revert back because I do feel as though there's a big difference between having a bunch of people in private offices where the door shut and the collaboration that's created by sitting in an open area.
00;24;07;00 - 00;24;22;15
Jason Makowski
Yeah, that's how our office used to be. And when we went through our remodel, I don't know, a couple of years back, maybe it's a little longer than that now. We had predominantly an open floor plan and I loved it. But when we.
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Pulled.
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Jason Makowski
The salesforce, they all said, Hey, we're on the phone all the day. They want private offices. We want privacy. So we went to a closed door kind of retail glass front theme so you can see everybody in their offices, but everybody has privacy on the sales front.
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And you guys have a pretty it's a pretty decent mix of both still in your office, I would still say, of that open concept where there's a common area for you guys all to hang out and still have that. But then I'm on the phone. I'm a pacer too, so I'm always like, right here. I'm like parking lot in the hallway or wherever because our office is all open and I hate being on the phone with everyone listening.
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I'm like, I feel like I'm driving them crazy. I can't think myself. So I'm like, Got to get out of here.
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Jason Makowski
And I think every industry is different. They're in real estate. It does seem to make sense to have the sales force in offices or the ability to jump into an office whenever they need one and make a call. I get that there's things you don't want other people hearing it. It makes sense. And but our office was designed so that support staff was kind of right outside of a cluster of agents offices.
00;25;33;05 - 00;25;37;24
Jason Makowski
Yeah. And that's kind of the way it is all the way throughout the office.
00;25;37;26 - 00;26;04;07
And back on. I'm just hammering you on like, office questions. I'm sorry, but on the on the build outside of it, what kind of tie are you guys seeing needed to be brought to the table from landlords to attract a tenant? And I think it was Doug Page's that once told me he said something along the lines of, you know, if you're offering acts as a landlord for T.I, that's fine.
00;26;04;09 - 00;26;16;06
But if you want the tenant, be ready and prepared to pay even more. Essentially, I can't. He said a lot more eloquently. So sorry. I'm just shaking his head at me.
00;26;16;08 - 00;26;54;22
Jason Makowski
I've seen Tai ten improvement all over the board the last ten year deal we did coincidentally at the 6500 burn center building. We gave the tenant a white box delivery plus $35 a square foot, and the tenant funded the balance. I've seen deals. I did a deal on how and where the landlord did it. Ten or 12 year lease with the tenant was a dentist and they gave the on an existing space that was already finished, but it needed to be demoed and then rebuilt out and they gave them, I want to say 90 or $95 a square foot towards a tie on a new ten or 12 year lease for a.
00;26;54;22 - 00;26;55;13
Chris Prins
Dentist.
00;26;55;15 - 00;26;59;24
Jason Makowski
For an apartment that was funded by the landlord. Yeah, So but.
00;26;59;24 - 00;27;19;17
Part of that too, when the dentist's looking at that space is like construction costs are at an all time high, too. So his numbers are he's like, that's a heavy lift for him to take on, too. Landlords probably looking at it want the tenant want a place. It's a dentist. I don't think he's gone. They don't go out of business very often, but that's a.
00;27;19;20 - 00;27;40;27
Jason Makowski
Tell a kind of rule of thumb. Ten year lease starting from scratch and not even start from scratch. Just a new ten year lease. You're probably in that 30 to $40 square foot range on the tie front, go 5 to 7 year lease. You're probably anywhere from $15 in the low end up to $25 a square foot on the high end.
00;27;41;00 - 00;27;48;16
Could that be closer to, like, retail, Right? Yeah. Yeah. The 5 to 7 year lease term and 15.
00;27;48;18 - 00;27;50;13
Chris Prins
Spot on cap.
00;27;50;16 - 00;28;08;08
Interesting. Yeah, that's a that's the other part of office that like always, it's kind of like sad for me because I go into an office space, I'm like, it looks great, like it looks good, but the next tenants like that. But that's not how we're going to use the space all goes into the trashcan and rebuilt out.
00;28;08;08 - 00;28;37;24
Jason Makowski
Yeah, it's kind of a it's always been interesting to me how much different industrial retail and office are from that perspective. Yeah, because it seems like the tie allowances for industrial and retail are significantly less than office. And I get it. Industrial you're paying a lower per square foot price point. Yeah, most cases I get that. But retail, I mean when you're paying $30 a square foot, triple net for space or whatever it may be and some of these landlords are like, I'll give you a white box and then you build it out from there.
00;28;37;27 - 00;28;41;03
Jason Makowski
It's like on the office front, we'd never get a deal done if we took that approach.
00;28;41;03 - 00;28;41;21
Chris Prins
Yep.
00;28;41;24 - 00;28;42;23
Jason Makowski
Right. Just so much.
00;28;42;23 - 00;28;56;21
Chris Prins
Different, I will say from the retail side, it's if you're corporate America, if you're on the New York Stock Exchange, okay, we'll give you that $30 a square foot and tie allowance because we know you're good for it. But the local guys, for a lot of time, I don't see them getting packages.
00;28;56;23 - 00;28;57;03
Jason Makowski
Maybe.
00;28;57;03 - 00;29;00;28
Chris Prins
Three or four months of free rent and say, here's the space as it is. Do what you need to do.
00;29;01;06 - 00;29;28;05
Do you think that's just from a risk evaluation or two? Partially where it's like this retail town, it may or may not make it like I feel a lot more comfortable with the office or medical tenant, so I'm willing to pay more. Yeah. And then from the industrial side, it's just, you know, you're talking 10% of the space is office anyways for the remainder is going to continue to be and use functionally the same way by any tenant doesn't matter.
00;29;28;07 - 00;29;43;20
Chris Prins
So yeah, and I would also point to like you mentioned earlier, dentists don't go anywhere. Well, a restaurant, I hate to say it, but the life span isn't that long for a restaurant's kind of turnover and fail and another concept goes in. So I think that has a lot to do with with some of those tie packages.
00;29;43;22 - 00;29;50;24
Interesting. So where where are the hotspots? An office investment there? You're seeing a lot of office investments still are people.
00;29;50;24 - 00;30;19;15
Jason Makowski
That so much we have not seen much in the office investment arena the last couple of deals, larger deals that I've been involved with during COVID, I saw the 30,000 square foot medical building in East Paris that was fully leased at the time of sale, owned by family in New York and bought by a wreath that was active in the market and that was just shy of 7 million.
00;30;19;18 - 00;30;20;25
Jason Makowski
And then we sold.
00;30;21;02 - 00;30;22;08
What kind of cap was that?
00;30;22;14 - 00;30;31;19
Jason Makowski
It was around 75, and then we sold a building at the corner of Monroe and Leonard, which is a mixed.
00;30;31;22 - 00;30;32;02
Building.
00;30;32;02 - 00;30;45;28
Jason Makowski
Retail and office that sold last year. Property Yeah. Four, five, three. I want to say, which I think the cap rate on that ended up being somewhere in that 7.75 ish range, if I remember correctly.
00;30;45;28 - 00;30;51;15
That's just what everyone gets are bearings. That's where Subway is. Yes, I can't think.
00;30;51;22 - 00;31;15;04
Jason Makowski
China Chinese restaurant. Yeah. Bissell And there were some other a big chunk of the building's office Go there beside was one of the anchor tenant 6000 square feet approximately And then there were there was one other large and I remember if they were linked to Hope Network, but one of the nonprofit arenas here locally they were linked to some.
00;31;15;06 - 00;31;18;24
But not Owls and Square got a lot of investment down, a.
00;31;18;24 - 00;31;19;28
Jason Makowski
Lot of investors.
00;31;19;28 - 00;31;28;20
To office is more mostly owner occupied and correct. Hey, I'm going to I'm going to buy this and lease out the remainder or whatever it might be.
00;31;28;23 - 00;31;47;22
Jason Makowski
Yeah, we've seen good activity continue to see good activity on the owner occupant spectrum. I mean, like I said, the issues about availability of product. Sure. So if buildings hit in desired office submarkets, i.e. Forest Hill, Cascade, Cascade.
00;31;47;25 - 00;31;49;28
ADA down to the east pairs.
00;31;49;28 - 00;31;51;06
Jason Makowski
You're going to get activity.
00;31;51;06 - 00;32;09;26
All through there. And what's your why is that? And I have a guess, but I'd like to hear what you think. But why is that cascade market in that East Paris market, Ben I mean, it seems like it's really been hot for office and medical office right in there.
00;32;10;02 - 00;32;32;18
Jason Makowski
I think you're it's close, easy proximity to restaurants and retail. You're super close to the expressway from an on off perspective, it's super easy to get to. That would pretty much sum it up And you have it's a very saturated area. Yeah that a lot of people desire to be in because they collaborate with other groups in those same areas.
00;32;32;19 - 00;32;48;13
Can what are some other markets in West Michigan that you would say have similar like it's this strong area demand over here? Are there areas or is it just smaller pockets of, you know, single practice type people looking to build?
00;32;48;16 - 00;32;51;23
Jason Makowski
I would say it's more smaller pockets.
00;32;51;25 - 00;32;55;09
Chris Prins
Would you classify it like downtown Ada as kind of one of those small pockets?
00;32;55;09 - 00;32;58;09
Jason Makowski
Downtown ADA would be classified as one of those smaller pockets.
00;32;58;09 - 00;33;03;04
Although is the office full? Are they doing well down there with the office space?
00;33;03;06 - 00;33;22;29
Jason Makowski
I think for the most part, the office is for the downtown area. There are. It's awesome. There is some availability. I think there's some space coming on line, probably around 14,000 square feet, maybe potentially. And I think there's another above Satan's. I think they've got I hope I'm pronouncing that right, but it's 6000 square feet.
00;33;23;01 - 00;33;29;02
Did you say Satan's Oh, space. Okay.
00;33;29;04 - 00;33;38;10
Jason Makowski
But outside of that, you might have a small office here, a small office there. But for the most part, as of right now, they're pretty it's pretty full in downtown Ada.
00;33;38;15 - 00;33;53;15
And and I yeah, I got to ask the question recently by somebody they have some office investment properties and mostly medical tenants and that type of thing in their life. What do you think? Should we be selling these getting rid of these?
00;33;53;18 - 00;34;15;06
Jason Makowski
I think if you have good quality fully leased medical buildings, I don't know why you wouldn't consider putting them on the market. I don't think that's going to curb like depending on the size. I know there's still actively looking around for property. Now their appetites change a little bit in terms of what cap rates or rates of return they're willing to accept or they're looking for.
00;34;15;08 - 00;34;35;26
Jason Makowski
But and I think that's been a little bit of a challenge. You said, do we have an active investment market? I think there's still a lot of landlords that are living in the pre-COVID times, still thinking cap rates are what they were pre-COVID. But when you have a pre-COVID cap rate at 7%, you're borrowing money at close to 7% and there's no spread.
00;34;36;03 - 00;34;36;18
Doesn't work.
00;34;36;19 - 00;34;37;25
Jason Makowski
Yeah, the numbers don't.
00;34;37;25 - 00;34;38;12
Work, doesn't.
00;34;38;15 - 00;34;59;17
Jason Makowski
So I don't think those two of aligned yet. And I think the further we get removed from COVID and as rates start to come back down, you'll start to see probably a lot more activity in that arena. But otherwise we're going to need sellers that are a little more realistic on pricing if they really want to sell, that's what it's going to take.
00;34;59;17 - 00;35;08;09
But that seems to be the entire market top to bottom of, you know, expectation is nothing's changed costs.
00;35;08;09 - 00;35;08;29
Jason Makowski
And that is the.
00;35;09;04 - 00;35;28;06
Same cause. Construction still all time high interest rates keep going up, land costs still high, labor costs still high. So then it's like, why would I sell at a discount as a seller? Inventories all time low. Go build it, then go. And as a result, this number a little bit.
00;35;28;09 - 00;35;50;06
Jason Makowski
As a result of the inventory being at all time lows. What I've seen personally is when I'm researching the limited inventory that's on the market, you're seeing buildings hit the market now at price points. We would not have seen, for example, advantage listed of building over off of East Bell and an evergreen and it's 200 and some dollars a square foot.
00;35;50;08 - 00;36;06;23
Jason Makowski
Yeah. Now we haven't seen that type of price point for an office building. You know we have a building listed on East Paris for around 180, a square foot. And that's a direct result of you can't build this building for anything close to that. In today's times.
00;36;06;23 - 00;36;08;24
And that seems to be the common thread.
00;36;08;24 - 00;36;10;27
Jason Makowski
Through your better in this and renovating.
00;36;10;27 - 00;36;34;11
It under right. I mean that makes sense. I can either buy this existing renovate and be in for 10% cheaper, 20% cheaper or I can just, you know, find finding land is tough in itself. So that's why even if I could find the land in the spot that I want to be overpaying for the land, construction costs, etc., so you're.
00;36;34;14 - 00;37;00;03
Jason Makowski
Well on, you have the timing element has you got to you got to get there all the approvals for the land development to even get to that point. So do you have time to allow for all that? I mean, if it's someone that needs to do something now, you know, it's a no brainer even to pay more than we've seen from a price per square foot for an office building renovated, you're still likely going to be in for significantly less than what it would cost to buy land, build a building in today's times.
00;37;00;03 - 00;37;00;20
Jason Makowski
Yeah.
00;37;00;23 - 00;37;12;11
Chris Prins
I also look at it too, from the investment standpoint. Sellers are also saying, okay, if I sell it to your point Jason, there's no inventory on the market. What do I 1031 into? I don't, I don't want to pay capital gains and so on.
00;37;12;12 - 00;37;13;10
Jason Makowski
So that's an.
00;37;13;10 - 00;37;16;22
Chris Prins
Issue. I mean, it's an issue that we're going to have to resolve at some point.
00;37;16;24 - 00;37;34;29
Yeah, that's yeah, it continues to feel like something's got to give, but it's kind of felt like that for like the last like three or four years in my mind to where it's like something's got to give and nothing's giving COVID. I mean, I feel like there is like a brief moment where people are like, okay, I've got to move this.
00;37;34;29 - 00;37;51;01
I got to sell it, I got to be because I think there was some fear. People. But right now, I mean, even people seem to be, generally speaking, have cash on hand. Tenants are paying rent.
00;37;51;03 - 00;38;08;26
Jason Makowski
Yeah, I think West Michigan is in talking to brokers and other markets, West Michigan seems very isolated like we did not get hit nearly as hard as a result of COVID as other markets throughout the United States. I mean, not even close.
00;38;08;28 - 00;38;23;13
Well, and I feel like our downtowns are coolest it's ever been as far as like restaurant mix. And you've got the movie theater down there now and the arena rock and out and Monroe live. And so we're getting cool shows. Ampitheater Common theater Common.
00;38;23;15 - 00;38;31;20
Jason Makowski
Yeah, all the riverfront development that will likely take place over the next several years. I mean, there's there's a lot of great things happening downtown is the riverfront.
00;38;31;20 - 00;38;33;17
How far away are they on that? Do you have any idea?
00;38;33;17 - 00;38;37;24
Jason Makowski
I don't, I don't. That's kind of been a moving target, so I don't I'm not sure.
00;38;37;25 - 00;38;46;09
Chris Prins
Okay. So to rewind, what are you hearing in some other markets? I mean, like downtown settings, are you hearing vacancy rates of 20, 30% or.
00;38;46;10 - 00;38;47;07
Jason Makowski
Like outside of grand.
00;38;47;08 - 00;38;53;00
Chris Prins
Outside of Grand Rapids, like, let's say, I don't know any offices in like Chicago and.
00;38;53;03 - 00;38;59;24
Jason Makowski
I don't have specific statistics, but they're they're certainly significantly higher than where Grand Rapids is today.
00;38;59;27 - 00;39;12;08
Is there an exodus from I mean, you see the news and everything and but it's obviously always there's always a bias towards everything. But is there been a mass exodus from downtown?
00;39;12;10 - 00;39;35;12
Jason Makowski
We have. We haven't seen it. I mean, you have spectrum. Who's going to contract? They're going to pull out of their office, a lot of their office space downtown, move it over to their new facility. It's under construction. That was already known. I wouldn't call that an exodus. That was a strategic plan. We have seen a few companies that we've moved recently from downtown to the suburbs.
00;39;35;12 - 00;39;40;28
Jason Makowski
But you're talking 5000 square feet, 2500 square feet. It hasn't been anything significant.
00;39;40;28 - 00;39;47;24
Where are you going to put 25,000 square foot of an office? These are from downtown in the suburbs.
00;39;47;26 - 00;39;48;26
Jason Makowski
Very limited options.
00;39;48;27 - 00;39;52;29
You're building at that point. Yeah. Interesting.
00;39;53;02 - 00;40;03;29
Jason Makowski
So it's been good. Like I said, I no complaints. We've been pretty resilient office. I mean, for me personally, I've had three good years the last three years, like.
00;40;04;02 - 00;40;05;10
Even some of my best.
00;40;05;10 - 00;40;10;03
Jason Makowski
Recovered. I'm blessed, very thankful. But I wouldn't have expected it.
00;40;10;10 - 00;40;24;12
What was the what was that? Was that a lot of people saying, hey, I'm going to make the move finally. And build my own practice type thing in opening and buying a building. Or what kind of buyers were active during COVID or tenants.
00;40;24;14 - 00;40;49;04
Jason Makowski
We did some pretty nice sized investment deals during COVID. We did a couple really nice sized lease deals through COVID, and those were kind of the catalyst. But there were a lot of smaller deals that we did in that thousand 3500 square foot range, just tenants moving around, contracting, expanding. You know, I kind of look back at the end of the year, I'm like, how how did the year go the way it did?
00;40;49;04 - 00;40;54;28
Jason Makowski
It didn't seem like it was as busy and active as it's been pre-COVID, but yet it was a great year.
00;40;55;03 - 00;41;00;14
Yeah, it was probably that thousand square foot office in Hudsonville.
00;41;00;17 - 00;41;03;01
Jason Makowski
That definitely helped. Yes.
00;41;03;03 - 00;41;25;16
That was part of it. That was a small part of what I was a part of it. It's part of Jason's Goodyear. That's awesome. I mean, from there, the other thing I kind of wanted to ask about is Marianne and she's you guys Kobilka a lot of stuff have when when did that start as far as you guys working as a team?
00;41;25;16 - 00;41;47;17
Jason Makowski
And so that was all kind of initiated by Aaron Young who used to be stands kind of right hand CEO. I guess you can say back when we were SJ was in ski and then became was in ski group. He had come to me one day and said, Hey, you're you've been doing retail, would you consider doing office?
00;41;47;17 - 00;42;03;11
Jason Makowski
Because that's kind of what I did. I kind of did everything the first couple of years, but I was kind of more focused on retail. Yeah. And I said sure. So I started Partner with Marianne and probably 2007. Okay. And just more or less to see how.
00;42;03;11 - 00;42;04;22
They're buying the business to her or.
00;42;04;22 - 00;42;25;03
Jason Makowski
She. Yeah, she's been in the business several years longer than I have. Okay. Prior to me, Jeff Carter, who's now in jail, had worked, I would say, pretty closely with Marianne for a while and stuff, and then he went over to work for C D, There became an opportunity for someone else to work alongside Marianne. They said, What would you think a try in that?
00;42;25;03 - 00;42;45;16
Jason Makowski
So we actually complement each other very well. She's very strong in certain areas and feel like I'm very strong in certain areas and we complement each other. There's not a whole lot of overlap. Like she's very strong on the marketing side, I really like to hone in on more of the financial numbers side, so I like to be out at showings.
00;42;45;16 - 00;42;54;25
Jason Makowski
I like to be on the phone with people. She likes to do that as well. But we just she's good at one thing. I'm good at something else and it's been very good.
00;42;54;25 - 00;43;08;00
And I've seen no ego between the two of you either, where it's like, hey, like I have to be the, you know, the person that gets all the glory and all the low ego. And I would say that's pretty true for your whole shop, for the most part. Yeah. That's how our whole.
00;43;08;02 - 00;43;09;04
Jason Makowski
For That's how the whole for the.
00;43;09;04 - 00;43;09;17
Most.
00;43;09;17 - 00;43;10;20
Jason Makowski
Part, for the most.
00;43;10;22 - 00;43;11;12
Part.
00;43;11;15 - 00;43;34;15
Jason Makowski
We don't have a lot of a lot of ego. Everybody is always very happy to work with someone else. If someone pops in unexpectedly, it's always open door policy. People will set time aside to help, which is great. But Marianne and I just it works out very well. And the nice thing is we do about, I would say, probably 90% of our business together.
00;43;34;18 - 00;43;53;01
Jason Makowski
She has her preexisting stuff when she and Stan work, but with different people. And I have certain clients that I built when I first got into the business that I've carried forward with, but that's only probably 10% of each of our respective businesses. The balance of it's stuff we do together.
00;43;53;05 - 00;44;10;13
And then and and you don't have to answer this at this too personal. But, you know, for other brokers and stuff that are working as teams, I mean, when commission comes in, is it just a quick conversation of like, hey, this is I did most work here, or is it just like, hey, we're going to split this and move on and we'll catch up on the other one?
00;44;10;13 - 00;44;21;05
Jason Makowski
Or transparently, we just split everything we've we've found over time that she'll put a lot of time into one deal. I'll put a lot of time into another. It balances out very equally.
00;44;21;10 - 00;44;42;06
It's hard. It's probably hard sometimes on that day where you're like half right. But once you get over that and you trust the other person that they're going to bring you and have your back on the next one. Because as all of us know, as you're doing a deal and you're in it and you're living it, and then you finally get it across the finish line, and then you look and you're like, Oh, now what?
00;44;42;06 - 00;44;50;25
Like, what am I working on now? So then to have Marianne out there doing something else and complimenting or, Hey, I'm out of town, can you show this all.
00;44;50;25 - 00;45;09;13
Jason Makowski
Helps it for a variety of reasons. I mean, coverage. One of us is always around. So if we're work representing a client, we never have an excuse why we can't do something because one of us is around to do it. We cover a lot more ground because she's got relationships of people. I have relationships with people. She's making calls.
00;45;09;13 - 00;45;28;16
Jason Makowski
I'm making calls. We're going different directions. So there's always something work on with the to it, which has been great. And it just keeps it simple, like it for us. And it may not work this way for everyone. Like I said, we've kind of went back and looked at, okay, who's doing the majority of the work on individual deals?
00;45;28;16 - 00;45;38;02
Jason Makowski
It's been a very even mix. And if there ever is like, Hey, you know what? You did a ton more work and I really wasn't involved. We we have a very quick conversation done done.
00;45;38;03 - 00;45;38;13
Yeah.
00;45;38;17 - 00;45;40;28
Jason Makowski
So and that seldomly ever happens.
00;45;41;01 - 00;45;41;27
You know.
00;45;41;29 - 00;45;52;16
Chris Prins
It's also easier to have those upfront rather than least commission shows up at the office. And that's okay. Now it's about getting an argument about who's who's doing what and how it's being divvied up.
00;45;52;19 - 00;46;17;04
Jason Makowski
I mean, let's I guess we're all here to make money, but money's secondary. I mean, the way I operate is clients at all times. First in their best interest is first. And if that means I get compensated less for one reason or another, that's what it means. Clients first, the money is great, it's nice, it's fun, but it's not the business it'll.
00;46;17;04 - 00;46;41;15
Follow, right? I mean, it always follows and it always in some way works out and maybe it's not as fast as you wanted it to be years quick, but you'll get there. You'll get there. So that's awesome. And I think that's probably the the vision from that. I talking about earlier from and I feel like a lot of the practitioners or brokers or agents all have a similar feel that way where it is a client first thing.
00;46;41;15 - 00;46;44;25
And so I have a ton of respect for your office, top to bottom.
00;46;44;26 - 00;46;50;03
Chris Prins
Client first and just responsiveness to you guys are always getting back and getting a timely answer.
00;46;50;05 - 00;47;09;06
Jason Makowski
Yeah, we, I mean, I know Marianne and I take a lot of pride in that. The responsiveness, like if someone calls us, they're looking for something, they're going to get a response quickly. That's just, I think the way business should be done. I know there's always excruciating circumstances, but again, when you got two people that you can connect with, someone better be able to get back to you pretty quick.
00;47;09;06 - 00;47;32;03
Pick up the phone and and yeah, they're calling for a reason, right? Correct. Pick up the phone and telephone. And I think that's a I mean, that's the key to success for one successful business guy. I know Anton, and he's like, like, how do you do it? He's like, pick up the phone, period. That's pick it up and then be proactive right on top of that.
00;47;32;03 - 00;47;35;10
So that's awesome. Simple. It's so simple.
00;47;35;13 - 00;47;45;22
Jason Makowski
Now, I have to ask, I've seen some signs in the market that say suggest Max Grover for president. I'm just wondering, is that fabricated or is that reality?
00;47;45;25 - 00;47;54;16
Yeah, I'm paying for those. Yeah. No, no. I'll stay out of politics. Stay out of.
00;47;54;16 - 00;47;56;12
Chris Prins
Politics. That's in your next life.
00;47;56;12 - 00;48;17;25
Yeah. No, to many, I'm sure. Even if they're not true. I mean, the skeletons that come out of people's closets at that point, I got. I'm. I'm from Kentwood. I got family in Kentwood. So we're all in Kentwood. There's too many skeletons buried there. So, yeah, no, stay away from politics. I love politics like talking. I'm. But no, thank you.
00;48;17;27 - 00;48;29;07
Jason Makowski
And just a quick reminder for the brokerage community that may be listening to this. Remember when you're emailing Chris Press double check the email address because you don't know if it's going to end or if it's going to.
00;48;29;07 - 00;48;30;19
DA or.
00;48;30;19 - 00;48;36;17
Chris Prins
I think the best is title companies send me the wrong closing documents. I'm like, I'll go gladly pick up that check. I would buy that.
00;48;36;23 - 00;49;02;23
That's all I get. I get Max Benedicte quite a bit too. It's like probably once a quarter. I can only imagine Chris Prinz and Chris Prince. Yeah, and I've done it even on tax. Yeah. So usually I'm usually usually with this Chris Prinz I get it right, but I've text the other Chris Prince and he's like, Ah, I wanted this dummy.
00;49;02;25 - 00;49;14;03
It happens so much. Chris So it's Chris D Prince Christie Prince I hear retail Prince or industrial prince.
00;49;14;05 - 00;49;18;25
Chris Prins
I'll take retail industrial. I got kind of like split.
00;49;18;28 - 00;49;30;21
I always suggest that they should play a basketball game. Oh, my gosh. You know Chris Prince from Calvin College, all star basketball player versus Christie Prince. Have you play basketball now?
00;49;30;22 - 00;49;48;17
Chris Prins
So that's a five star. So when I was at eight a Christian, I think I was like sixth grade or something. And one of the student teachers I think was dating Chris at the time or something and obviously found out our name and was like, Oh, my boyfriend or whatever is Chris Prince. He plays basketball. Calvin College was like, Oh, cool.
00;49;48;20 - 00;49;56;04
Chris Prins
So I remember she brought to school one day, assigned t shirt from Chris Prince, a Calvin Calvin College basketball t shirt. I'm sure my parents buy still.
00;49;56;04 - 00;49;57;16
Like that's probably worth a lot of money.
00;49;57;16 - 00;49;59;21
Chris Prins
I know we should get that thing framed a.s.a.p.
00;49;59;26 - 00;50;07;13
Jason Makowski
So you're inadvertently suggesting that the stud basketball player, Chris Prince, is just a wee bit older?
00;50;07;13 - 00;50;08;23
Chris Prins
Just a wee bit, Yeah.
00;50;08;26 - 00;50;10;29
Jason Makowski
Then the Chris.
00;50;11;01 - 00;50;13;29
Chris Prins
Maybe that's how we call them the all the older Chris friends.
00;50;14;02 - 00;50;21;19
Yeah, I still like it. I like the idea, the concept of the idea basketball game. One of them has to change her name a bath match.
00;50;21;22 - 00;50;23;05
Chris Prins
Yeah.
00;50;23;07 - 00;50;28;25
Jason Makowski
So I think industrial Chris friends would take that game.
00;50;28;27 - 00;50;45;11
I got a feeling and then from I guess generally I mean we've been going about 50 minutes here but to get into outside of brokerage and into family and all that's important to you and you're out in Wayland, where's Wayland Even at.
00;50;45;14 - 00;50;47;01
Jason Makowski
Meadow Vale more technically speaking.
00;50;47;04 - 00;50;47;29
But okay.
00;50;48;04 - 00;51;06;28
Jason Makowski
Kids go to Wayland But yeah, we live on a small little sport lake in Millville. Awesome. It's been a lot of fun. Like I said, our daughter, we bought a rental house on the same lakes. Our oldest daughter lives on the lake with us, which has been really nice, and then our two younger kids keep us super busy.
00;51;06;28 - 00;51;21;10
Jason Makowski
One has Max Grover's heart at interest playing hockey. Yeah. Yep. Still haven't got him on the ice with Max Grover. Yeah, yeah. Lustrous Max Grover so that he could show him some of his former moves that he's got Wood, but. And Bowling Green, correct?
00;51;21;10 - 00;51;24;10
Yeah, Bowling Green. Now, I'm a lot slower now.
00;51;24;13 - 00;51;40;08
Jason Makowski
But we spent a lot of time running. You know, we moved down a lake. And funny thing is, we're hardly ever there because we spend the whole summer traveling for soccer with our junior in high school and her travel team. And then we migrate into winter and now we're sitting in hockey rinks.
00;51;40;14 - 00;51;41;03
Yeah.
00;51;41;05 - 00;51;42;21
Jason Makowski
All the time, which has been great.
00;51;42;21 - 00;52;05;10
But yeah, it's the hockey thing is the time commitment from parents is like the, the parents that never did it before don't understand it. And then all of a sudden they find themselves are like, What do you mean? I have I have to drive to Detroit Sunday night for a Sunday night 5:30 p.m. game in Detroit, two and a half hours away.
00;52;05;13 - 00;52;09;17
Like who? Who did this? But there's only so much ice time. So that's where you find yourself.
00;52;09;17 - 00;52;29;13
Jason Makowski
And it's it was all new to us. It was a big surprise, you know, sign up and it's like, okay, I have like ten games. No big deal. It's like we had 40 game tournament games and that's on the low end of the spectrum as you. Yeah, you know, ramp up divisions in hockey. It sounds like it gets a lot more intense.
00;52;29;13 - 00;52;30;19
Jason Makowski
We're just doing something.
00;52;30;25 - 00;52;36;12
We can play something like 65 games a year, so there's some cap. I can't remember what it is and it's.
00;52;36;12 - 00;52;38;09
Chris Prins
Like and then practices on top.
00;52;38;09 - 00;52;39;12
Jason Makowski
Practices two nights a.
00;52;39;12 - 00;52;46;04
Week, you know? So we lost. And then you have to go to the skill skate. Are you going to fall behind.
00;52;46;06 - 00;52;48;24
Jason Makowski
If you can get my son to commit to doing that, Max.
00;52;48;26 - 00;52;53;05
I owe you a lot. How old is he? Is 11 and he just started a couple of years ago.
00;52;53;12 - 00;52;56;28
Jason Makowski
He's been on the ice on the lake for the last several years. I mean, he.
00;52;57;05 - 00;52;57;29
But he's obsessed.
00;52;57;29 - 00;53;17;20
Jason Makowski
Hockey, but he and he's wanted to play. And we've never kind of really pushed him to go that direction. And then our daughter happened to come up from school and she's like, hey, you know, one of the kids that Weyland is the goalie for Byron Center. They do these camps and Corbin do this camp. So we sent them and the rest was history anyway.
00;53;17;22 - 00;53;20;09
So at least it's cheap, though. Yeah.
00;53;20;12 - 00;53;25;24
Chris Prins
Yeah, yeah. And they don't. A girl outgrow their skates quickly? Yeah It's cheap to.
00;53;25;24 - 00;53;26;11
Jason Makowski
Skate on the.
00;53;26;11 - 00;53;27;13
Lake. Yeah. Yeah.
00;53;27;16 - 00;53;29;09
Jason Makowski
That's so cheap to skate on the rink.
00;53;29;09 - 00;53;39;03
Two $300 hockey stick that can break in a month. Yeah. It's fun. So and then so you have, you have three kids. Yep. And what are their ages?
00;53;39;05 - 00;53;46;29
Jason Makowski
So our oldest is 27 and then junior in high school. She's 16, soon to be 17 and then 11. Soon to be 12.
00;53;47;02 - 00;53;55;21
Wow. Okay. And the 27 year old is back in town. That's awesome. Yep. Are they any express any interest in jumping into real estate or. No, no.
00;53;55;22 - 00;53;56;04
Jason Makowski
No.
00;53;56;11 - 00;53;56;25
None.
00;53;56;28 - 00;54;13;07
Jason Makowski
None. Yeah, it's actually friends Kids like friends of mine's kids that are like, hey, can we job shadow with you? We just want to see what it's like. Not my own kid. It's been like other families, like. And our son or our daughter job shadow with you in the summer because they're interested in real estate.
00;54;13;10 - 00;54;24;29
I've done a couple of those and it's like it's always like it's always interesting because it'll be like they'll watch me for an hour, answer emails, and I'm like, You know, what are you show?
00;54;25;01 - 00;54;30;06
Jason Makowski
How do you keep someone like, engaged unless you have a whole day of like, shut up, get out.
00;54;30;10 - 00;54;31;18
Of course, that's like.
00;54;31;21 - 00;54;38;18
Jason Makowski
You wouldn't want to see what goes on in the office and you're behind a computer responding to stuff or making a quick phone call that.
00;54;38;18 - 00;55;05;04
Yeah, that part of getting out and doing the showings, if you're coming and you're walking in these, you know, different buildings, finding out how people are making a living creatively in different ways and different assets from industrial retail office, but then the reality of the job and the amount of time on the phone and and emails and I don't know if you guys get like the apple, they're like at the end of the week, those like your screen time.
00;55;05;04 - 00;55;06;12
Yeah, yeah. This summer I.
00;55;06;12 - 00;55;07;14
Jason Makowski
Don't pay attention to it but.
00;55;07;19 - 00;55;11;04
Yeah, I'm always a little embarrassed. I'm like, Oh my God.
00;55;11;08 - 00;55;15;21
Chris Prins
Or Spurs. I always get mine in church. So I'm very much like, Yeah.
00;55;15;24 - 00;55;18;17
Yeah, it's insane.
00;55;18;19 - 00;55;21;21
Jason Makowski
So what is that like? But Chris, your screen time at church?
00;55;21;23 - 00;55;22;26
Chris Prins
Boy zero one.
00;55;22;26 - 00;55;24;03
Percent of.
00;55;24;05 - 00;55;27;14
Jason Makowski
Your screen time outside of church. 99 Yeah.
00;55;27;17 - 00;55;29;14
Chris Prins
Yeah, exactly.
00;55;29;14 - 00;55;40;07
That's awesome. So, I mean, any advice for new brokers coming into the business that you would give them as far as like a.
00;55;40;09 - 00;56;07;02
Jason Makowski
Well, what I would tell them is it's a fun ever changing nowadays, ever the same business If you if you like working with people you like helping people make decisions, you're good with numbers and you don't have a problem knocking on doors, picking up the phone and talking to people. Whether it's because you have something for them or you just want to get to know them and hope it segways into something later.
00;56;07;05 - 00;56;31;10
Jason Makowski
It's an awesome business. It's tough to stomach the first several years just because you don't know what is or isn't going to be there from an income perspective. But if you have the ability, like in my case, my wife worked when I made the switch, so we didn't have no income coming in, you had enough that it covered the bills that need to be paid, and then it was anything that I could make on top of that was a bonus.
00;56;31;12 - 00;56;37;24
And then your younger your your overhead for cost of living in is high to jump in correct. Yeah something like that on either.
00;56;37;24 - 00;56;51;20
Jason Makowski
So with younger agents, I mean the big thing is they come out of college, some of them have student loans, they have to pay back, they have an apartment they live in, they have a carpet. Well, how am I going to do that if I'm making nothing? Yeah, Yeah, you'll figure that out, you know.
00;56;51;22 - 00;57;12;21
And it's hard to for those young guys to be. They come out of college, you got high hopes and expectations, and then you get beat up for two years and you're watching your friend that's got a salaried position making money and you're like, What am I doing? And so I feel like you probably see a lot of guys fade away at that point.
00;57;12;21 - 00;57;16;04
And it's like if they just stuck it out, if they just pushed that.
00;57;16;07 - 00;57;26;14
Jason Makowski
And that's the key you have you if you're going to jump in, you have to be willing, in my mind, to give it at least three years. If you can't make that commitment, I would probably talk somebody out of doing it. Yeah.
00;57;26;20 - 00;57;35;14
And it's not Yeah, it's it's three years just to feel like you're got tracks, right? Yes.
00;57;35;16 - 00;57;55;06
Jason Makowski
Correct. That's not to get where you think you ultimately want to be. It's going to take several years beyond that to get probably where most people think they should be. You know, I came in with no expectations because I really didn't know much about commercial real estate, although it seemed interesting. And I liked a class I took at Grand Valley.
00;57;55;08 - 00;58;12;08
Jason Makowski
I'm like, It seems like it'd be a lot of fun. I had no expectations. I didn't know if $50,000 a year was good, if $200,000 a year. I had no idea. Sure. I'm like, I just like the business. So if I like it and I can do the things that I feel like I excel at, sure.
00;58;12;11 - 00;58;13;06
You can enjoy.
00;58;13;07 - 00;58;13;24
Jason Makowski
You can enjoy.
00;58;13;24 - 00;58;28;05
It. And yeah, and eventually the money comes up, taking the right steps in the right direction. Eventually that follows. And it doesn't mean you're going to be filthy rich or anything, but it's, you know, you pay the bills and take your family.
00;58;28;05 - 00;58;37;11
Chris Prins
So, yeah, it's those early years to have just grinding it out, being hearing no, a lot of times the door shut in your face. Do you recall your first deal, Jason? You still remember?
00;58;37;11 - 00;58;55;24
Jason Makowski
My first, if I remember correctly, my first deal was with a church that I put in a building on South Division. And shortly after they moved in, the boiler went out. That was happened to be because I didn't know any better. A tenant expense? Yeah, Tenant didn't have any money for it. And the deal kind of blew up.
00;58;55;24 - 00;59;15;10
Jason Makowski
And then I had a landlord looking at me like it was my fault. And I'm like, Well, give me a break. It's. You're building it. Your boiler. But he wasn't. He wasn't wrong. That's where the lease was designed. I learned a lot, you know, the tenant learned a lot and that one didn't go so well. But ever since, I think almost you've done okay.
00;59;15;11 - 00;59;18;23
Jason Makowski
All has been smooth. I mean, for the most part, there's always little bumps.
00;59;18;23 - 00;59;27;05
But for me, I never stopped learning. I never stops. And you're like, Wow, why? Like, hindsight's 2020, right?
00;59;27;08 - 00;59;31;10
Jason Makowski
You don't know what you don't know. Had I had known at that point.
00;59;31;10 - 00;59;40;04
Some some situation no one knows now and then you get into it and you're like, Oh yeah, that would have been smart to do it this way. And for whatever reason.
00;59;40;07 - 00;59;53;15
Chris Prins
What's so fun it our industry is ever deals so different and so unique. And every time you walk into the next year with that information, kind of in your back pocket of, okay, here's what two kind of X factor or kind of take take some notes on it.
00;59;53;15 - 01;00;12;24
Jason Makowski
And I feel like we're one of the few industries where literally once you get something under contract, almost everything is out of your control. You don't control anything. You control like helping set things up, like inspections, environmental things like that. But you don't control what those test results look like. How that's going to circle back around and impact the deal moving forward.
01;00;12;24 - 01;00;14;16
Jason Makowski
You have no control over anything.
01;00;14;22 - 01;00;38;28
Yeah, Yeah, it's it's always it's always changing and it's like, yeah, it'll be like even little things where it's like, hey, like good people expectation going into it. Everyone's got good expectations, Something happens and then it always goes back to the contract and it's like it might have it might not happen for a month, that might not happen for ten years.
01;00;39;03 - 01;00;49;29
And people might have forgot things might have changed from, you know, cash flow perspective or whatever it might be. And now all of a sudden a contract and it always goes back to that.
01;00;49;29 - 01;00;58;03
Jason Makowski
So that's and that's what makes a business fun. Yeah. I mean figuring out ways to offset challenges. Yeah. And there's always challenges it seems like.
01;00;58;09 - 01;01;12;22
Yeah, I, you know, my first building I sold was it was, it was a burnt out gas station on Bridge Street. I'm drawing a blank on his he was a and I also a basketball player.
01;01;12;25 - 01;01;13;13
Jason Makowski
Jeremy Vance.
01;01;13;14 - 01;01;37;12
Jeremy Vance are Yeah Thank you. I did it with Jeremy Veenstra. He was a listing agent. It was like $50,000 or something. A burnt out gas station. And of course, like, get the phase one results weren't great. Yeah, I was, like, all excited just to get one sale down, right? And then you get the phase one back and you're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly.
01;01;37;15 - 01;01;44;11
You got some issues here. So yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, very cool. What was your first deal?
01;01;44;13 - 01;01;52;23
Chris Prins
L.A. Insurance of Plainfield Avenue or Town Center. I'd still to this day. Yeah, right next to Social Security. That's awesome. Secretary of State. Secretary of State.
01;01;52;23 - 01;01;53;12
Lease deal.
01;01;53;16 - 01;01;54;01
Chris Prins
Lease deal.
01;01;54;05 - 01;01;59;20
Awesome. Yeah, that was my first sale. I don't even remember what my first. I'm. It was small.
01;01;59;20 - 01;02;03;12
Jason Makowski
First lease was a church. I don't remember sale. I'm sure it was small, though.
01;02;03;14 - 01;02;12;03
He just took it to some church on a boiler. Yeah. It put him out of business.
01;02;12;05 - 01;02;14;03
Jason Makowski
That was what I always said. Maybe this isn't the right.
01;02;14;03 - 01;02;30;08
Yeah, maybe there's, you know, no ill will or bad, bad intention or anything in the past. Things go wrong. Things go wrong. So I don't want to leave it on that, though, either. So I don't know. We got to kind of leave that. I'm some better than that.
01;02;30;10 - 01;02;32;09
Chris Prins
Give us your favorite deal you ever worked out.
01;02;32;11 - 01;02;35;09
That's better.
01;02;35;11 - 01;03;00;07
Jason Makowski
Sale of 1000 East Paris, which was 110,000 square foot medical building, which had numerous owners involved, which happened to be doctors with practices in the building. Just so many ups and downs, hurdles to jump through to get everyone on the same page with, okay, where do we position the asset to go to market? How do we how do we get it?
01;03;00;07 - 01;03;22;04
Jason Makowski
There it was it was a whirlwind then, you know, vetting deals that came in and getting them to understand like, okay, our ask price was this. Here's where that here's where the deal is, here's why. Just so many different hands in the pot. It was very complicated very and it was complicated just because it's clear.
01;03;22;05 - 01;03;26;16
To any clear decision maker like was there one majority. So it was not.
01;03;26;16 - 01;03;44;26
Jason Makowski
Really I mean, it was there was one person that kind of led the charge then he was still at the mercy of the other partners. So it just took it was challenging getting people to make decisions, getting people over the hump. But once we got everybody aligned and really I think what really helped is we said, you guys are all on different pages.
01;03;44;26 - 01;03;49;29
Jason Makowski
We you think the assets worth so why don't we have a third party appraiser come in and tell you what it's worth?
01;03;49;29 - 01;03;51;11
Chris Prins
Sure. Yeah.
01;03;51;13 - 01;04;19;03
Jason Makowski
And we have a hunch it's going to be close to what we're telling you. And I think in that case we had Jeff Gans and he did an appraisal. We huddled up with the owners. One evening he went through the appraisal. The appraisal came in like super, super close to what was suggested. I mean, super close. Yeah. And we ended up bringing it to market just a touch above that and then up trading hands very close to the asking price that we had established.
01;04;19;06 - 01;04;26;24
What was the time frame from like first listing, appointment to listing to then selling and close.
01;04;27;01 - 01;04;45;16
Jason Makowski
So we kind of got our foot in the door on the management front, got an opportunity to take over the management of building that and segway it into conversations regarding selling it. I would say a year, year and a half, maybe from the time that we started managing it till in the sale.
01;04;45;16 - 01;04;54;09
Was this suggestion of sale because of result you guys came in as management, you were seeing they're having issues making decisions, all their partners.
01;04;54;11 - 01;04;57;21
Jason Makowski
All their practitioners.
01;04;57;23 - 01;04;58;14
Know.
01;04;58;16 - 01;05;16;20
Jason Makowski
We said, you know, would you guys be open to selling it? Does it make sense to sell it? I mean, there's some people that want to get out of it, some people that are fine, just fine, stand in it and got them all to agree. You know what? Now's the time to sell it. And a lot of it was there was this false illusion of what it was worth.
01;05;16;20 - 01;05;27;24
Jason Makowski
I mean, we sold it for a little over 9 million, 9.2 million, 3 million, something like that. One of the partners I remember saying, we think it's worth like 16 million. And we're like, it's not worth 16 million.
01;05;27;29 - 01;05;32;08
Then you're like, Blimey, another person like me out there, I'll take it.
01;05;32;08 - 01;05;56;05
Jason Makowski
It was getting numerous people that had a a greater expectation on price over that hump that that's not the true market value. And here's why. Once everybody was on board with that, they saw the appraisal, they got the explanation from Jeff Ganz and did a great job explaining everything to them in conjunction with us. They were like, We get it, let's bring it to market.
01;05;56;07 - 01;06;14;29
Jason Makowski
Didn't take a super long. Once we had a market to find a buyer, it happened to be a group out of Chicago. They bought it. They held the asset for a couple of years and then they flipped it to another investment group out of Ohio that currently owns it today. And we still we've done we've transitioned from one group to the next on the leasing front, which is about a blessing.
01;06;14;29 - 01;06;17;12
Jason Makowski
But we've stayed involved.
01;06;17;17 - 01;06;43;12
That's one other compliment I will give you guys, specifically you and Maryann. I think when you guys bring something to market, it's it's it's in it's in play. It's not way overpriced or it's going to sit there forever. And it's not it's priced right to get activity and be fair to the market. And I always appreciate that about you guys specifically, but I think your whole office is good job at that.
01;06;43;12 - 01;06;44;16
So I appreciate.
01;06;44;16 - 01;06;44;23
Jason Makowski
That.
01;06;44;29 - 01;06;59;19
And I've heard how part of that process and how you guys get to some of that numbers like on the industrial team and, you know, five or six brokers write what they think their valued. I think I love that I think that that's a cool approach yeah it's what.
01;06;59;19 - 01;07;28;02
Jason Makowski
We do on and listings that were or pitches that we're going to be making we we huddle up with our respective specialty team and just say here's the asset pitchers information role. What do you think the thing is worth? And then we get a range and a lot of times, more times than not, it's pretty tight range. Like on whether it's a price per square foot for from a lease perspective or a price per square from a sale perspective, it's usually a pretty tight window.
01;07;28;02 - 01;07;48;15
Jason Makowski
We have some where we get a bigger gap for one reason or another. That just tells me that we're or all not as familiar with the asset as we we need to be. Yeah, but nobody can do anything about that because we're bringing it to somebody cold that maybe hasn't even seen it. They just see the pictures. They don't understand all the underlying facts.
01;07;48;18 - 01;07;56;01
Jason Makowski
You do your best to share that and get them acclimated with that, but sometimes it doesn't happen. But more times than that, that window's super tight.
01;07;56;08 - 01;08;09;11
And it's kind of just confidence to your landlord or your seller to like, Hey, we had a different brokers that are active in this market. Look at this unbiased submit their numbers and you're the work app.
01;08;09;13 - 01;08;33;27
Jason Makowski
So you take that in conjunction with what the market's telling you from a cop perspective. Hopefully those five individuals that are given your numbers are pretty close to where we're coming up on the cap side as well. And now it's kind of a twofold approach. Like we vetted it out based on the CAP approach. We vetted it out based on just knowledge within our office approach is we feel pretty comfortable.
01;08;33;27 - 01;08;35;28
Jason Makowski
That number is pretty, pretty spot on.
01;08;36;04 - 01;08;47;11
That's awesome. It's cool. And then last last question, where do you prediction for the office market, real estate, commercial real estate market as all moving forward?
01;08;47;14 - 01;09;19;24
Jason Makowski
And I've been saying this for the last at least a year I would have thought we would have already started ramping up on the office front. There would be more demand. I think it's been slower than expected, but I do feel as though as the clock continues to tick, we're going to see additional demand for office product. We're going to see more companies bringing people back to work, which is going to necessitate a need for less space, more whatever that may be, given their specific circumstances, it's going to drive demand for office space.
01;09;19;26 - 01;09;22;25
Chris Prins
Do you see that demand in suburbs downtown or both?
01;09;22;27 - 01;09;51;13
Jason Makowski
I'm hoping it's both. I mean, people have poured so much time and energy into downtown that it'd be a shame to see groups moving of downtown because I move out of downtown. It's going to have a negative impact on the retail component and then it just changes down time downtown significantly more than we want to see. But I do think there's probably going to be more activity just based on the amount of product that's available in the suburbs versus downtown.
01;09;51;15 - 01;09;56;28
Interests and well, and then real estate as a whole, commercial real estate in the next.
01;09;57;01 - 01;10;13;25
Jason Makowski
I think it's going to be good. I mean, well, we have a few little minor bumps in the radar. Yes. Mean, are we in a recession? I don't know. It depends on who you ask. I think it's going to be mild if we if we're not in it and it's still to come, it's going to be that's what everybody has been saying.
01;10;13;25 - 01;10;47;20
Jason Makowski
And I think that run is going to carry us through. I mean, the economists that I've listened to said we're probably pretty good to go through 2030 with a little bit of volatility. And then I know that with an economist that smoke a spark at an econ, I think they've spoken numerous times and they've kind of said 20, 30, early thirties is going to be the time that people want to have stuff paid off because there's going to be a collapse now and they've been, historically speaking, supposedly pretty spot on.
01;10;47;20 - 01;10;49;25
Jason Makowski
So that's 2430.
01;10;49;25 - 01;10;53;19
I'm going to put that in my calendar. You got two months, two months before.
01;10;53;22 - 01;10;56;20
Chris Prins
It's like that 2012 movie that they're going to make a movie about it beforehand.
01;10;56;20 - 01;11;09;01
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Oh, thank you for coming in And you had me appreciate it. In where I mean where can people find Jason McCloskey as far as website.
01;11;09;03 - 01;11;25;04
Jason Makowski
So you can get a hold of me at my email address was Jason M at WW IMDB.com or you can call me on my office line at 616757034. Always happy to take calls and help people are needed.
01;11;25;06 - 01;11;38;29
Chris Prins
Thank you. Thank you very much.