The Legal Dive: Nicholas Laue of Keller Almassian

In this episode of "Legal Insights," we sit down with Nicholas Laue, an esteemed bankruptcy lawyer at Keller Almassian Law Firm in Grand Rapids. Join us as we delve into the world of bankruptcy law and gain valuable insights from a seasoned legal professional who is on the forefront of the industry.

Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;10;16

Ow, ow, ow, ow! All right.

00;00;10;19 - 00;00;21;29
Chris Prins
Welcome to episode number five of the Commercial Alliance of Realtors West Michigan Podcast. We have a special guest with us today, and I'll let Max introduce him. And kind of, of course, backstory.

00;00;22;01 - 00;00;46;28
Max Grover
Yeah, my good friend. At least I call him. I don't know if you would claim me the same. Nicholas Law, partner at Keller L Marcian law firm here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I specialize in bankruptcy, but I'm sure you guys get into a lot of business and real estate, etc.. We met through a networking group. It's probably been like five years, six years now.

00;00;47;00 - 00;00;51;20
Max Grover
Pre-marriage and everything feels that way.

00;00;51;22 - 00;01;02;16
Max Grover
Thanks a lot for having me on the show, guys. And yeah, we can get into some of my background and stuff as we kind of move forward. Now, he never said friend. No, he never said.

00;01;02;18 - 00;01;04;29
Chris Prins
You're not at that level. We'll see after the podcast.

00;01;05;04 - 00;01;25;16
Max Grover
Hey, you guys see every Friday and play golf once a week. Once you're there, that's it. He qualifies as an off there. So yeah. Background. Originally, you're not from Grand Rapids, right? Yeah, that's right. I actually grew up on the east side of the state, sat in Michigan. I went to kind of this small Catholic school over there, some Catholic.

00;01;25;18 - 00;01;56;11
Max Grover
And yeah, from there I kind of moved around. I did my undergrad up at CMU, and then I moved down to Ohio, to Toledo, where I did my law school at Toledo. Yeah, I'm Bowling Green, Ohio. I know. Yeah, we were close. We were close. I mean, I I'm not a michigan fan or the Ohio State, but. Yeah, no, it's pretty much grew up on the east side of the state, you know, the northern part of Ohio.

00;01;56;14 - 00;02;18;14
Max Grover
And then I moved over here 2014. I want to say now, I've never looked back. In fact, I don't even like driving over there anymore. So you still your parents are there, right? Yeah. And then one brother. Yeah, one brother. My brother previously worked for Gentex, but he works for Paragon. Now, over here in in downtown New York.

00;02;18;16 - 00;02;21;23
Max Grover
No, down and out. Okay, I just did that. Did you did you.

00;02;21;24 - 00;02;24;03
Chris Prins
Do the walking through or through the building? Gorgeous building.

00;02;24;05 - 00;02;31;20
Max Grover
Yeah. Sweet. I mean, great. I mean, that's a great outfit up there. It's unreal. They have, like, resting pods and.

00;02;31;22 - 00;02;38;10
Chris Prins
Yeah, you disassociate all your technology, leave another room, you just go relax. Watch the cars on the highway.

00;02;38;11 - 00;02;46;00
Max Grover
Yeah, for sure. Noise canceling rooms like the. It's state of the art. Not quite. Well, we're rocking one here.

00;02;46;06 - 00;02;51;07
Chris Prins
So 2014, you came to Grand Rapids. What? What brought our guests? West Michigan. What brought you to West Michigan?

00;02;51;12 - 00;03;11;17
Max Grover
Yeah. So my brother is older than I am, and he had moved over here previously and I had visited many of times and I really wanted to be on the west side of the state. It seemed like everything was growing. Everything was better in 2014. And I think that's equally been true even today. And so I definitely wanted to be over here.

00;03;11;19 - 00;03;33;11
Max Grover
The one thing that I would say about West Michigan at the time, and I think is maybe even still partially true, is it's an insulated community over here, as you guys both know. And so unless you got a story from being here or you've lived here or you have a family friend that you know, you visited, you got to have a connection here to really get in the door over here is really has been my experience.

00;03;33;11 - 00;03;52;23
Max Grover
And at the time I had a lot of decent offers down in Ohio to stay there to start as a associate at mid to small level firms. And one Toledo, Ohio really didn't speak to me from the mud hands doing hot hands.

00;03;52;23 - 00;03;54;07
Chris Prins
So all I that's about it.

00;03;54;08 - 00;04;13;28
Max Grover
The thing about the thing about Toledo, Ohio I was a little off base here is it reminds me a lot of Flint, Michigan. Yeah, it's an old manufacturing town. It's got a lot of diversity, a lot of culture, but it also has a lot of rough areas as well. And I just didn't see myself raising a family there.

00;04;14;00 - 00;04;40;09
Max Grover
None of my family lives in Ohio, so it was really kind of school and that was that with the with Flint too, like pretty much subject to one employer. Right. And then they left their essentially downsized and now it's just friends struggling over there ever since it seemed there's. Schwarze Krieg There's areas that do fantasy stick, but the, the Flint market itself just never seems to rebound.

00;04;40;12 - 00;05;01;01
Max Grover
Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean when Buick was there, I think the town was, you know, really full life and there were a lot of great opportunities. I know that Flint has been coming back, but I think, you know, the water crisis didn't help them grow at all. And I think generally speaking, you know, businesses have seen populations come and go from there.

00;05;01;01 - 00;05;21;21
Max Grover
And I think they're in a rebuilding phase right now. And it'll be interesting to see what comes kind of post water crisis in Flint, Michigan. Yeah, but to answer your question directly, I took a job over here for one year working for the Michigan Court of Appeals, and I did that more as a stepping stone to get into the community and ultimately stay here.

00;05;21;21 - 00;05;23;12
Max Grover
And it it worked out that way.

00;05;23;15 - 00;05;26;08
Chris Prins
So what was your day to day like with the Court of Appeals?

00;05;26;10 - 00;05;51;21
Max Grover
Yeah, so the Court of appeals was really one. It was my first full time legal job. I'll tell you a story about a couple of other legal jobs that I had you guys will get a good laugh out of, but it it was basically I worked in the research division. The research division got cases sent up to it from new appeals.

00;05;51;21 - 00;06;22;03
Max Grover
I got filed and many of the cases that I worked on were criminal appeals. Criminals get right to appeal as of right. So I saw a lot of ineffective assistance of counsel, you know, objections or dismissals because they wanted a new trial, whatever the case may be, and essentially would see the transcript of the lower court. I'd prepare a research report and then I'd get basically prepare a proposed opinion to be sent downstairs.

00;06;22;05 - 00;07;00;22
Max Grover
So it was a lot of writing, a lot of reading, and it was intense at times. With the turnaround time, you didn't get to interact with a ton of people and that was really hard for me. I am a extrovert and I enjoy interacting with people. The community, etc. But it was a I mean, it was probably the most pivotal piece of my legal career of developing my writing and really honing in some of the kind of analysis skill sets that I have that I've continued to use even today.

00;07;00;22 - 00;07;22;04
Max Grover
So it was a it was a hard job. It was a worthwhile job, and it definitely served me well later. When you're when you're writing those documents, I mean, are you sending them direct out and they're going right to the court or is the judge reading them or who's. Yeah, So we had a supervisor that would review basically everything that we, I suppose, wanted to propose.

00;07;22;04 - 00;07;50;14
Max Grover
And then basically all of our all of our reports, opinions, etc. would go down to the three judge panel that would be hearing a given case. And then they could comment, review or otherwise modify, throw it out, whatever the case may be. But we really kind of served as kind of giving the judges what the case law is for a given case and giving them options regarding where the kind of the current cases like cases are here, the back office for the judges each year that you were there.

00;07;50;14 - 00;07;54;02
Max Grover
So we are quite literally the research division there. Yeah.

00;07;54;05 - 00;07;59;06
Chris Prins
Can you imagine if you had like the chat GP2 days back and forth back about.

00;07;59;08 - 00;08;00;22
Max Grover
How you use it at all?

00;08;00;24 - 00;08;04;01
Chris Prins
CHANCE Yeah, oh yeah. Low marketing brochures.

00;08;04;01 - 00;08;05;04
Max Grover
And everything I have is.

00;08;05;04 - 00;08;10;17
Chris Prins
Way too easy. It's too easy. Not so nice. There are some stuff where it's like, okay, you got cleaned up, edited here and there.

00;08;10;17 - 00;08;29;09
Max Grover
But yes, way better editing. I didn't get that back. Backroom deal of the working from the court. So mean writing never got honed in. Yeah some using chat jpt for some marketing packages and stuff is pretty fun. Yeah you like plug in the info and it's bits of back out some stuff about the neighborhood and the whole nine yards.

00;08;29;09 - 00;09;05;04
Max Grover
Yeah, it's a chat. GTI is going to be interesting on how it impacts the legal world. It it certainly will I think cut down on getting form like form motions or otherwise and maybe even a little bit of writing with respect to case law. Sure. There's two really big suppliers in the legal world and it's Westlaw and Lexis, and I suspect that they'll have some app or component that they have to research that will get added on via chat.

00;09;05;07 - 00;09;42;14
Max Grover
And I think that'll really be interesting and it'll be kind of the I think the next technological advancement. And then once it gets honed in of like I need case law pulled for this specific thing that's going on, throw me every case and then yeah yeah I still think there will be, you know analysis and problem solving. I don't think that those components are going to go away from the legal world, but I think from a writing standpoint and getting at least, you know, quickly good resources, I think it will really cut down a lot of time on that on that front in our essay, I think, yeah, it's going to be it's going to

00;09;42;14 - 00;10;09;29
Max Grover
be transformative for a lot of industries and I'm sure like hundreds of way the ways that we don't even have any clearer idea yet. Right. Including brokerage from right now just marketing packages. You can't really do much more with it. But yeah it's coming site selection and that type of thing. I mean, these demographics and this anything tell me anything available on the market with these demographics and this size that's common for sure.

00;10;09;29 - 00;10;14;23
Chris Prins
Yeah. I feel like it's going to have a lot change or adoption on kind of whatever industry you're in.

00;10;14;25 - 00;10;34;01
Max Grover
Yeah, but then there's once again from like the brokerage side, there is always that human element too, where it's like not everything's hitting the market More or not. Demographics don't always drive a good piece of real estate necessarily either. And having that human element, at least for now, I think it's going to be important for a long time.

00;10;34;07 - 00;11;00;22
Max Grover
I hope it's going to be important for a long time to come for good. So, I mean, I don't think that, you know, all the technological advancements that we had, I don't think anything really replaces problem solving and human interaction. It can certainly make the forms to document the response time better. But, you know, those those crisis situations or otherwise, you know, problem solving isn't going anywhere.

00;11;00;25 - 00;11;24;02
Max Grover
Right? Creativity is usually something that hasn't happened or been created yet. So is the computer going to be able to get to that original thought? Right. Is a whole nother leap for A.I. once again, that that I hope. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. So. So you got you came to Grand Rapids. You're working in the core. How long are you doing that for?

00;11;24;04 - 00;11;50;20
Max Grover
I worked there for just about a year. And then, oddly enough, today, my staff informed me that it's my anniversary at my job. So I started at Colorado, Mass. And June one of 2015. Congrats and have been there ever since. That's all. Okay, So you went right from the court to yes. Keller on in. And then you've been a partner there for two years now, a year.

00;11;50;22 - 00;11;54;04
Max Grover
It's about 18 months now, so a year and a half. So yeah.

00;11;54;05 - 00;11;57;04
Chris Prins
And what was the size of the firm when you got there? And what is that today?

00;11;57;10 - 00;12;29;03
Max Grover
Yeah. So when I got there, there were, I think a total of six attorneys all together. And Todd and Michael Marcian are both brothers. I you know, whether they listen to this or not, I can't say enough nice things about those two guys. They've been a really good mentor towards me. And frankly, if I was a young attorney and I was getting my first job and I was trying to figure out, all right, where do I want to be, what I want to do, what type of I want to practice?

00;12;29;06 - 00;12;53;11
Max Grover
I would say forget all of those components and don't worry about any of that. What you need to do is you need to find a good mentor. You need to find people that want to and are willing to develop you, and you'll have a good career as a result. And I was fortunate enough to get that job, you know, immediately after leaving the Court of Appeals.

00;12;53;13 - 00;13;13;29
Max Grover
And it's I haven't looked back since then. It's been really great. And those the group that's there is is awesome. It's changed over time. We used to have a lot of staff. We have less staff now. I think that's in part technical technologies made things easier, better. The younger generations have been better at adapting, let's put it that way.

00;13;14;06 - 00;13;35;20
Max Grover
Dichter Phones used to be a thing they're not anymore. Having a paralegal, you know, drafting a letter for you. You're not a thing anymore. So I think, you know, a lot of the overhead associated with firms has been cut down as a result of technology. I didn't expect us to talk about technology so much, but I think a lot of of those advancements have really helped us.

00;13;35;20 - 00;13;52;23
Nicholas Laue
And we've reduced our staff and we fluctuated in numbers from attorneys. Right now there's four partners and then two other attorneys that work for us, and then we have three staff members all together, one remote and two in the office.

00;13;52;26 - 00;13;53;29
Chris Prins
Wow.

00;13;54;01 - 00;13;55;20
Max Grover
That's cool. So, yeah, go ahead.

00;13;55;21 - 00;14;09;10
Chris Prins
I'm glad you mentioned Skype, just the whole mentor program because I feel like that's big. Even just in real estate of how to get your career started. Do you have any like specific stories or examples of kind of what that mentorship look like for you?

00;14;09;13 - 00;14;41;22
Max Grover
I got to tell you, I mean, everyone's interested in the bottom line for businesses, and unless you're unless your leadership is really interested in developing the younger generation, I think your business is going to stagnate. And again, I you know, fortunately for me, I didn't have to go through kind of a process of having bad mentors and bad direction, kind of right out of law school slash my first job, I ended up with good mentors, but it's a ton of work, right?

00;14;41;25 - 00;15;13;01
Max Grover
You know, we have a new associate that started with us and developing them, carving out time to develop them, and not just not just can you read, can you write, can you do a brief? But I think there's a, you know, a holistic approach to that, you know, family values, etc.. I mean, we like we like people that work, whether it's in our community, at our job, that have similar values and share similar goals and ideals, I think.

00;15;13;03 - 00;15;22;19
Max Grover
And while you may move away from a given center point, I think at the end of the day, you know, you want to develop those people, to have those ideals, those values, that type of thing.

00;15;22;21 - 00;15;25;13
Chris Prins
So having that core ethos at the end of the day, absolutely.

00;15;25;13 - 00;16;05;25
Max Grover
Yeah. And whether you want to call that corporate culture or whatever, I think it really starts with the leadership and and look at it doesn't improve the the bottom line at the beginning. It proves the bottom line much later. Yeah interesting it's a it's yeah that getting getting somebody up and going and started it's so hard even from brokerage I'm speaking more than I know I'm assuming the same on the the legal side where it's like you're spending so much time on something that you're like, well I could just do it now half the time, but now I'm spending time teaching somebody and it's taking away from something else.

00;16;05;25 - 00;16;23;15
Max Grover
And it's like, but it's so it's a catch 22. It's so important, but it's so hard to and so if they don't have the in the person Arnold Gerber that I started working with, he had that teacher's mindset and, you know, he would always pick up the phone. I'm like, I can't believe this guy still even wants to help me.

00;16;23;15 - 00;16;45;09
Max Grover
And, you know, some of the questions like that I asked back then that I know now, like looking back and that I had no you just saw. I have a clue that. Yeah, sure, sure. And that that in part jumpstarted your career, right? I mean, you got you had the opportunity not to be lost in a corporate culture and have that one on one time with art.

00;16;45;11 - 00;17;21;10
Max Grover
And you know, conveniently enough, you each had the same last name, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, oh, yeah, that was so important. And, you know, we still get together and talk all the time and do deals together and he is. Yeah, he's been, he was an absolute blessing to me from the, the mentorship side and I could start crying right now but no I love that I've answered that and I just think up all the time he spent to get me up and running and, and once I did, I mean, the value was there for both of us.

00;17;21;10 - 00;17;50;28
Max Grover
And, you know, I was bringing in stuff and, and helping. And it was it was an exponential growth for both of us. But to get over that initial that initial hump is just it's crazy to think back. Yeah. And to think about, you know, you're doing great in your business and you know, I see your guys the signs everywhere and you know, those, those small moments of mentorship fast tracked so much of that.

00;17;51;00 - 00;18;22;05
Max Grover
I mean, I even look back on that now where I'm at. And if you don't have those people in your corner, and especially the people that you're seeing every day, you're just not you're not developing or you're going to develop slower than maybe what you want. Yeah, you're floating. Yeah. And and that was from your perspective, I mean, being he, Chris, as I call yours originally and started out and there's a ton, it just opens your eyes in my mind being at one of those bigger hours.

00;18;22;05 - 00;18;39;27
Max Grover
Is it almost like raises the the self-belief or something. I'm like hey like we can do this because you're watching the guy next to you that's been doing it for 25 years and the other guy look the other way. Same thing there, you know, meeting with these people. And it, it almost makes it attainable, if that that makes sense.

00;18;39;27 - 00;18;40;03
Max Grover
Yeah, I.

00;18;40;03 - 00;18;58;20
Chris Prins
Remember being on calendars, especially, you know, when I first started he had like, Duke. So and who then, you know, brought in John Kiper and then Steve Marcus. And at that time Matt Abraham was part of Colliers and stuff and how many young people were underneath the we when I came in and Tim Minor and they built an entire industrial powerhouse.

00;18;58;22 - 00;19;14;00
Chris Prins
And then when I looked at the retail team, that kind of shaped me and guided me. I had Earl Clements, you know, Mike Murry, Mark and Sarah. Each of them took so much time away from their day to be like, I'll sit down. I'll help you with the transaction. You know, it was small deals, 1500 dollars to them or something here and there.

00;19;14;00 - 00;19;43;11
Chris Prins
But they took the time to sit down and like guide me through those deals. Another one I give a ton of credit to was Tom de Boer. Over at Colliers. He would constantly sit down with those young brokers and just pour into them and say, Hey, you're working out a deal, what can I help you with? And I remember there were times that were at Colliers where we had eight or nine young brokers all trying to fight and trying to make it, and how many times there were mentorship opportunities kind of at the higher level just to sit down with you and help you through it, not just.

00;19;43;14 - 00;19;49;16
Max Grover
And how they treated you and how that implements and impacts you decisions. Yeah, Yeah.

00;19;49;18 - 00;19;52;21
Chris Prins
So it's just building the foundation. Those foundation years.

00;19;52;24 - 00;20;25;18
Max Grover
Yeah. Cool. So you so when you left the court though, how did you meet how it was the connection to Keller or Marcian? So zero actually they were looking for and hiring two associates at the time that I got brought on. And there was a, I want to say it was like a classified in the Grand Rapids bar section where they list jobs and yes, it was a it was a cold call at the time.

00;20;25;20 - 00;20;50;22
Max Grover
And I felt that the interview went well. Obviously, they felt the same way. We always joke because, you know, I had this I had this beater of a vehicle showing up. You know, I was fresh out of law school. I had a little bit of law school that that I was repaying. And, you know, I was like, I mean, those guys have a beautiful building over there.

00;20;50;22 - 00;21;09;25
Max Grover
And, you know, I felt like a small, small time. Or were they downtown already or were they. No, they were. They were at 230 Fulton location, the White House at that time. And they had just moved in. I think they had moved in in late 2014. So maybe they had been there for a year. By the time I interviewed, they crushed that thing.

00;21;09;25 - 00;21;27;27
Max Grover
It's beautiful. Yeah, they I mean, they've done a lot of work. So before we have tenants in the Ottawa house as tenants in the building and you know, they, they've done a just a great job on, you know, renovating that it's only if you get a check. Hopefully you don't find yourself just.

00;21;27;29 - 00;21;31;09
Chris Prins
Staggering over here to see that.

00;21;31;11 - 00;21;54;02
Max Grover
Swing by. I don't do as good as a tour as one of my partners, but it used to be the old Grand Rapids Art Museum, and so there's a lot of kind of cool history throughout the building. And there is a there is a guided tour. We don't charge for it, but as a guided tour of some of the historical artifacts and stuff that we found in the building, and it's yeah, it's definitely a really unique place.

00;21;54;04 - 00;22;09;22
Max Grover
They did a good job of like modern and, you know, professional, but also keeping that historic feel to it. So it's a great spot. Yeah. And onsite parking, I mean, you can find somewhere downtown.

00;22;09;26 - 00;22;10;10
Chris Prins
No.

00;22;10;12 - 00;22;33;21
Max Grover
That's cool. So cold cuts I that's where I started with Arnie too was I was calling her I think it was like 2012. And so like the market was just gotten beat up. And I remember I called one brokers and I'm like, hey, like, want to get into commercial real estate? You guys hiring brokers? And he's like, Do you know it just happened?

00;22;33;24 - 00;22;59;04
Max Grover
So I'm like, No, I'm in in college. I don't know. And and so I made a couple of those calls and wasn't really hear back. And then I'm like, Grover, real estate. Like, duh, like, this guy's got to hire me, right? Got it. Right, Right. I'm a shoo in. I mean, you so good, so fun. That's amazing. So, yeah, you've been there.

00;22;59;09 - 00;23;23;20
Max Grover
How many years would you say now? Wow, 2050. So, June 2015. So eight years now. Holy cow. Yeah. Time flies, man. Yeah, Yeah. It's. I mean, I was, you know, I was thinking about when they were saying it was my anniversary, just like one. Learning. Learning the game is the way I'll play it. I'll say it, and then kind of getting those, you know, your first, your first own clients as home grown.

00;23;23;25 - 00;23;54;11
Max Grover
Yes. Going from there and, you know, getting larger and larger files and better files. Yeah. How about your. Well, maybe hopefully you don't get rep and the bankruptcy side, but I mean, the first time that you get a repeat client in commercial real estate, you're like, call out of the blue. Somebody you've worked with in the past, they pick the phone back up to call you and you're like, Yes, yeah, that's that's the bass and got me one.

00;23;54;11 - 00;24;14;18
Max Grover
I mean, you got to be, I think, a little bit at a small firm. You really got to be willing to take on different styles. Sure. They can't be run of the mill. I just got to, you know, check the boxes and get to the ad. You really got to be a little bit of a risk taker to get there within reason.

00;24;14;18 - 00;24;39;14
Max Grover
Right. And, you know, you got to have a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit as well to get those new files and or even like even for you guys, I'm sure I'm sure there's always a little bit of risk involved in new files that come in there. We call it air. Sometimes there's a little bit of hair on the file and you know, you're like, Oh boy, this could be a problem.

00;24;39;16 - 00;24;55;28
Max Grover
But you know what I mean? At the end of the day, you got to solve those problems. Well, I mean, they're going to go somewhere. It's just a matter of should they go to, you know, and and whether or not you want to take that on. And it's expensive. I'm assuming you don't you don't work on contingency on most of your cases, I would assume.

00;24;56;03 - 00;25;19;25
Max Grover
No. There's been maybe a handful of cases that have come to the firm that are contingency style cases. But for the most part, we do hourly work. So for us, that decision on how to spend our time is so important because you're, you know, you might chase something, chase something, and if it's not real and then nothing happened and don't get paid.

00;25;19;27 - 00;25;41;09
Max Grover
Right. So it's such an important decision. And you you find yourself in the beginning chasing in so many different directions. I think a lot of the bigger firms do a better job of helping guide and helping people like select a category of I'm going to be a retail specials, I'm going to be an industrial specialist. We're at a smaller firm.

00;25;41;09 - 00;26;08;21
Max Grover
You know, it's art. And I it's like, whatever I get right, or I can catch maybe bringing it in, it's mine. So yeah, it's such a balance, right? Yeah. And I mean, look, I think I think when you're doing that stuff though, you get so much better. And I know I've keep saying this, but problem solving, I mean, you are, you're kind of tip of the spear trying to figure stuff out a little bit on your own, a little bit with some guidance and a little bit with a little bit of moxie.

00;26;08;25 - 00;26;42;24
Max Grover
Right. I hate to say it's a fun part of the hour, but, you know, I think all those things have to come together for you to actually grow your business and get new clients. And and I think that's something, you know, that I've talked with friends and even my brother is is an attorney as well. And I've talked to him where it's like a lot of people come out and I don't think they out of law school with no expectation of like, hey, like I'm at the end of the day, I'm in sales.

00;26;42;26 - 00;27;05;09
Max Grover
Yeah, yeah. Look, I'm so glad you said that because I think everyone comes out of law school and goes, I got a really good education to practice law. What you do great. 100%. Well, you didn't get a good education on was how to run and operate a business. And the practice of law is a part of running a law business.

00;27;05;11 - 00;27;39;04
Max Grover
And at the end of the day, it's a business. And, you know, billing, collecting for us is is kind of the the blood, the heart and then all the other components that go along with it, you know, being active in the community and all the other stuff. So, yeah, I think law school does a great job of teaching lawyers how to write, how to do analysis, but it doesn't do a great job of how do I get a client there and how do I do I respond to a client, how do I how do I keep a client?

00;27;39;06 - 00;27;56;27
Max Grover
To your point, how do I get a repeat client? What do I bill at? I mean, I remember getting out of law school and it was like, I got to tell somebody that the hourly rate is this right? Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, three years ago, I was, you know, doing a summer job at the paint counter at Home Depot.

00;27;56;27 - 00;28;20;19
Max Grover
All right. You know, I was asking whether or not they had a washable scrubbed flat, But, you know, I think that those components, you have to learn on the job and they are a little bit uncomfortable for new lawyers. And I think if you don't have that entrepreneurial piece to you, it it's hard to develop. And and I think that's true.

00;28;20;19 - 00;28;41;07
Max Grover
It's it's I'm not just beating up on law school either. I think that's true for any type of grad school type situation, whether it's med school or becoming a dentist or any anything in between. It's like at the end of the day, if you aren't able to connect with people and build trust, you're going to struggle.

00;28;41;08 - 00;28;41;16
Chris Prins
Yeah.

00;28;41;20 - 00;28;52;20
Max Grover
Or you're going to go work for somebody, Right? Right. Which, which is fine and nothing wrong with that. But it's that that entrepreneurial thing, entrepreneur I'm not going to try again. Yeah, we know it's raining. All right. Thank you.

00;28;52;21 - 00;28;57;27
Chris Prins
What those early years look like for you. Like networking or trying to find that client? Like.

00;28;57;29 - 00;29;21;06
Max Grover
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's. That's a that's another good question. So just driving around chasing ambulances? No, I don't do any personal injury work. Honestly, it was, it was getting out into the community. I mean, in any way, shape and form that you could. I think it was there for probably like one year. And then in 2016 it might have been 2017, I might be off by a year.

00;29;21;08 - 00;29;41;00
Max Grover
I joined a networking group, which Max is a part of that really helped me out a lot and it helped me out in a couple of different ways. One at our networking group, which is B and I, I guess I'll give them a plug. No free ads, We'll send them a bill. I think I have to radio. I'll just sit down.

00;29;41;02 - 00;30;04;24
Max Grover
I'm a doctor. So, you know, having to do a 62nd presentation. What are you looking for? What do you want this week? What? What is it that you do that really gets you in? And I love that at the end of the week on Friday, that that's what my mindset is going into the weekend, right? I mean, that's a pretty strong mindset to start the weekend and then move into Monday.

00;30;04;26 - 00;30;29;29
Max Grover
And then in addition to that, I mean, you meet great people and you pick up pieces of the way that they carry themselves, the way that they talk, what works, what doesn't work. So being I was such a critical component of being out there. And look, it's scary. I mean, I you know, very much to Max point, I think the the president at the time, I literally think I called him, You're supposed to get invited.

00;30;30;01 - 00;31;00;26
Max Grover
You know, I mean, this is how bad I wanted to be in the community. So that was great. And then I'm a I think, a decent golfer. Some people would say I'm not that good. But in any event, are you a memory anymore? Yeah. Yeah. And I used to be on the board up there. And so, you know, I got to know a lot of, you know, again, good, successful people and you take their skill sets many ways or at least take them in and create something of your own.

00;31;00;26 - 00;31;16;22
Max Grover
So I think all that stuff, you have to be out there. I mean, you can't go home 9 to 5 and expect business to roll in. It's the time period outside of nine and five where real money is made. Yeah. So, yeah, so important.

00;31;16;24 - 00;31;32;21
Chris Prins
And you talked about it earlier too, just off the West Michigan mindset too, right? It's okay. Everyone knows everyone. It's a very tight knit culture. So you have to find, I think, those avenues to kind of insert yourself and be part of groups and be part of organizations. I remember when I was at Colliers, I think every car event.

00;31;32;22 - 00;31;45;12
Chris Prins
Duke So and used to always, just like all of you, young people need to be at this if you're not there, I don't know what you're doing. You better be at these car events, get to know other brokers, other, you know, attorneys, lenders, and just get your name out there.

00;31;45;17 - 00;32;10;01
Max Grover
Yeah, Yeah, I can't tell you how many times. I mean, I don't think I even told given, you know, remember out in Thousand Oaks that what type of law I practice but they'll pick up the phone because that's the lawyer that they know. Yeah. And so just being out there you'll get a telephone call. You know I just talked to a kid that I coached in hockey.

00;32;10;01 - 00;32;32;11
Max Grover
His dad called me. Hey, my friend's looking for self-storage stuff and want to connect you guys. And you know, he does residential real estate. But, you know, I coached his kid. It was almost been five years ago. And he picks up the phone because exactly that like hey like I know I'm access commercial and residential. I'm connect the dots and, you know, maybe we can get something done.

00;32;32;13 - 00;32;50;12
Max Grover
Yeah, those are the bars where you haven't heard from somebody in a long time that you interacted with. Maybe this guy says, I mean, it's just it's so funny how that stuff works out. Yeah, it's it's always it's always like those are. It's always like a nice surprise to you, and it's like you kind of stuck in your own life.

00;32;50;14 - 00;33;13;24
Max Grover
Like, this is what I'm working on. Here's what's in front of me. And then you get that surprise pick up of the phone from so-and-so and you're like, Hey, this is going to be a great case and this is going to give you a great real estate deal. Yeah. Or a great opportunity for somebody. Yeah. Yeah. So and then back to being I and I was one of this am I should go to it I should try a different guru but because I don't know I don't even want to leave our group.

00;33;13;24 - 00;33;26;04
Max Grover
No, I don't, I don't either. But I'm just curious because like we have really good people in that group. Yeah. And I'm like, are they all pretty strong like this? Or is this like a is this a different group? Are we going to pump our own tires here?

00;33;26;04 - 00;33;27;24
Chris Prins
Look how many folks are part of this group.

00;33;27;26 - 00;33;58;02
Max Grover
And it's growing. I think it's up to 38 when it's been down to like 22 up to like 35. And Brianna. Yeah, but I mean, there's most of the people in our business owners and, you know, like true decision makers and people that can send I actually my first sale, remember I talked about my first sale from the burnt out gas station on Bridge Street was from being I and it was John Grace restoration.

00;33;58;04 - 00;34;16;19
Max Grover
And I'm like thinking I'm like, you shouldn't buy. He looks at fire damage all this stuff all the time so he he knows it. But I'm thinking in my mind and I told them like they're like, Are you sure you want to buy this thing? This thing is burned down. Gas station. But I remember he sat down. He's like, It was my first sale.

00;34;16;19 - 00;34;47;21
Max Grover
He's like, Have you ever sold anything before? And they're like, No, But that was literally John Grace from being I was the first sale that ever happened. So, yeah, I think I mean, look, I think that group is just phenomenal. And not only that, I agree with you that there's a lot of decision makers in that group. Probably even more important than that is there's a lot of self-made business person in that group, which I mean, you don't get those people all together very often and able to see them every week.

00;34;47;24 - 00;34;55;27
Max Grover
Yeah. I mean, it's a unique group for sure. Yeah. Like we're going to blow it. We're going to blow up that group. I mean, if you.

00;34;55;29 - 00;34;57;11
Chris Prins
Saw me, I'll give you.

00;34;57;11 - 00;35;30;28
Max Grover
What I'm going to get finally get kicked off. Another commercial guy is going to step in. And that's sorry, I'm like, Bill Van, and I'll leave from some landscape too. And right there's there Mike Quast you know with I Cairo and there's I'm sure Rob Rock and Bill Farley. Yeah. Good friend chemical cleaning Yeah. I mean, I'm going to feel terrible that I leave somebody out, but there's so many good people who actually just came and clean the building over on at 620, 28th Street.

00;35;31;00 - 00;35;55;10
Max Grover
I'm pitching this property. We're listing it later this week. But she came out and it had been owner occupied. Then a friend rented it out cell phone store and it just it was pretty bad in there as far as like papers and old cell phone cases and it was just it looked terrible. And then she came in and cleaned it, did all the windows power, washed the outside.

00;35;55;12 - 00;36;15;26
Max Grover
But she's incredible. I mean, she it's awesome addition to that. I mean, just a number of employees that she manages. I mean, it's so I can't even wrap my mind. It makes me want to puke and say it's like 100 and some people or more. Yeah, it's just incredible. I mean, it's just incredible to grow a business to that level, have that mindset and manage that number of people.

00;36;15;28 - 00;36;34;08
Max Grover
I just it's just incredible to me. So and yeah, and then one of our good friends, we have to talk about a girl family. Oh yeah. So I think that's where I met Bill actually was I can't remember. I think I did meet him and B and I. And then you came in right after that? No, no, I was.

00;36;34;08 - 00;36;57;04
Max Grover
I was in the group. You were out. You were in before Bill? Yeah. You brought Bill in? I don't. I don't remember that. I think I you know, I would talk to Bill Bill failing I you know he's at least space from color. No mascot. Oh, that's right. When I. When I started there he was. He was next door to me and he's he's, he's just the bass.

00;36;57;05 - 00;37;17;28
Max Grover
He's a character and he's a great attorney. He has he cares so much about his clients that, I mean, I just I can feel it in his voice. You can feel it when he talks about his clients and the results that he gets. And I just think that business, you got to have a really particular personality to do really well at it.

00;37;18;00 - 00;37;50;25
Max Grover
And especially when you're self taught like Bill Haley, I mean, yeah, he's a unique guy. Personal injury attorneys personally, he's a character, but he's a great guy. He's he's a glue to our being. Yeah, he's the glue. But no. And Duncan, there's so many good people in that being I grew up and honestly, there's probably not It's this is turning into a B and I think but there's not like a week that I don't probably talk to somebody in that group or refer somebody in that group.

00;37;50;25 - 00;38;11;19
Max Grover
Mm hmm. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think networking is everything, right? I mean, you got to have that or you got to do something, whether it's roundtable or whatever, whatever it is. I mean, I remember I used to go to the they weren't bar events, but I mean, they were quite literally at the bar. It was like young law, not young lawyers, but young professionals in Grand Rapids.

00;38;11;21 - 00;38;37;11
Max Grover
Yeah, I used to go to those all the time, too. I mean, that's just another another place that you get to meet people. And then, you know, I met a few people in the lawyer world, and then they set me up teaching at Grand Valley. I mean, and then I, I teach one class a semester at least I don't teach a summer semester, but I teach fall and winter and I teach legal studies in commercial law.

00;38;37;15 - 00;38;57;03
Max Grover
So I actually filled out all the information to take your class. Did. Yeah, I did. I filled it out, and then I was about to submit it. And then I'm like, I don't know if I have time for this. I vow I will take that classes. I'm good way to say it. Good, good. Yeah, I How often? How long can I like?

00;38;57;03 - 00;39;10;26
Max Grover
Just, like, come once a week. You can. Honestly, I'm not going to kick you out in if you want to just come in and sit in for like one class and see what it was all about. I mean, I would say I don't have a problem with that. When is it? It's normally at night. So it's like 6 to 9.

00;39;11;01 - 00;39;13;02
Chris Prins
Okay. Okay. So it's just one day a week.

00;39;13;04 - 00;39;18;27
Max Grover
Yeah, it's one day a week. It's a three hour class. I got to tell you, teaching for 3 hours is No, that has to be exhausting.

00;39;19;01 - 00;39;21;25
Chris Prins
Do you do the full 3 hours? Are you like two and a half hours?

00;39;21;28 - 00;39;39;07
Max Grover
I do. No. I mean, you know, it all depends on kind of what the topics are and where the, you know, the students are normally either full time or part time student because it's a class. And I'm not interested in teaching to nobody, right? So I kind of gauge out on kind of what their level of interest is.

00;39;39;09 - 00;40;00;26
Max Grover
And you know, yeah, I mean, is it all the way up the full time period? No, not always. But it also kind of depends on what the material is that we're covering and whether or not they're absorbing it and probably helps you a lot more than you even really. I know you probably realize that it helps you to get better, but helps you even more than you probably even realize.

00;40;00;28 - 00;40;23;27
Max Grover
And eventually, once those kids are out and they're building their own practice and stuff, and I guarantee that they're going to start referring, you in five, you know, five years from now, ten years from now, a salon game. Well, I mean, look, I mean, if we're looking for new people, I mean, it's another great avenue. Or if somebody comes up to me and goes, Hey, look, I, I need a paralegal and, you know, I'd like to train somebody new.

00;40;23;27 - 00;40;51;06
Max Grover
And and I'm like, you know, I got this student that I really like and I think they'd be a good fit. It's an opportunity, so it's cool. So with and I keep bringing up bankruptcy because that's one of the big things that Keller amasses and does. But you kind of talks about chasing other types of business. What percentage would you say like bankruptcy that Nick Law was working on versus other types of law?

00;40;51;07 - 00;41;13;19
Max Grover
Or like what kind of business are you out looking for and working on? Yeah, So I mean, our firm has obviously a pretty big bankruptcy practice and we used to file a lot of consumer cases. And just to give you a sense of it, you know, February, March, April and May are all really big months for consumer filings.

00;41;13;19 - 00;41;38;23
Max Grover
So I'll speak that because taxes are due then. Yeah. So tax refunds are coming due. You can afford a lawyer as a result of those refunds. You're past. What's a what's a tax refund? Yes. Yeah, right, right. So that's really that's one piece. The second piece is you got kids that are back in school, so you got time.

00;41;38;25 - 00;41;59;06
Max Grover
And then three, you're kind of past the holiday season. So the fourth quarter is kind of a loss leader for consumer filings. Yeah, there's filings that happen, but it just goes way down. And myself and my other partner, Greg, him and I used to file, I think like 30 a month. Sure. And so chapter seven and Chapter 13.

00;41;59;06 - 00;42;24;14
Max Grover
And this is back and it's kind of the 15. So renewing their lines of credit, you're getting the first updated the deadline. This might come due. So a lot of that reason too that that's the issue or is it more emotionally driven? I'm like, hey, we're past the holidays. And yeah, I think there's just I think that one I mean, people tend to spend money around the fourth quarter as far as retail goes.

00;42;24;15 - 00;42;46;13
Max Grover
You know, they're not thinking about a bankruptcy by the time January rolls around, you know, it's happening. You got to prepare your taxes. I mean, you know, whether you are going to be able to meet your tax obligation, certainly, I hope by April, especially for consumers. Right. So I just think that that first second quarter is always big as a result of those factors.

00;42;46;13 - 00;43;07;28
Max Grover
And, you know, they can afford lawyer because they're going to get a little bump from the tax refund and we can help them out with their debts. Is that mostly then on a personal level that you're talking about? Yes. And is that the majority of your cases is personal bankruptcy versus business? Yeah. So the reason why I said pre-COVID is a lot of things change.

00;43;07;28 - 00;43;40;23
Max Grover
post-COVID. One, filings went way down. People had more money as a result of stimulus funds that were coming in. But I think that that was also coupled with the rise in debt from like school debt cameras. And there's a lot of frozen debt. Frozen debt for sure. But I think the other part that was so critical during COVID and why we saw filings go down was there weren't a lot of opportunities to spend money you didn't have restaurants, you didn't have your bars open.

00;43;40;26 - 00;44;03;25
Max Grover
And really you saw, you know, those dollars going into building new decks. I felt like every time I talked to another person, they were building or extending their deck. So amazing. I you know, I just think that the the spending went in different places. But it also there weren't a lot of other or new or different opportunities that you could spend money on.

00;44;03;27 - 00;44;18;19
Max Grover
So that kind of drives into that material inflation and things because hey, like I only I can only spend my money on certain items. Those certain items are mostly construction type items, lumber Yeah. Product. Yeah. Driving, which.

00;44;18;21 - 00;44;21;00
Chris Prins
We couldn't travel, we just stuck at home. So.

00;44;21;02 - 00;44;41;04
Max Grover
That's right. I mean, traveling took a huge hit. I mean, I remember I, I had bought new appliances kind of right at the beginning of COVID, and I asked the sales guy on the floor, you know, how have things been going? You know, you were always kind of I was interested know how all these businesses were operating or generating crushes during that time.

00;44;41;09 - 00;44;49;08
Max Grover
He basically said every day is better than Black Friday. Yeah. And I was just like, this is bananas. That that was the bike shops and the.

00;44;49;08 - 00;44;52;07
Chris Prins
RV stores and I've heard RV is are going like wildfire.

00;44;52;07 - 00;45;15;09
Max Grover
We bought paddle more than wealthy and I mean those guys they sell inflatable kayaks and paddleboards and yeah crushing and anything outdoors. Yeah you had that component you also had you never had anyone that was really pursuing your debt so you didn't have mortgage foreclosures. And those are I mean, those normally drive. Do you want to stay in your house?

00;45;15;11 - 00;45;35;22
Max Grover
All right. Well, if you want to stay in your house, you know, I need to know what your disposable income level is. I need to know whether or not I can propose what's called a Chapter 13 plan that's feasible. And so when that all slow down, you don't have debtors going. Are consumers going, Oh, I guess I should file a bankruptcy because I'm so far behind my debt because nothing bad is going to happen.

00;45;35;22 - 00;46;00;16
Max Grover
You're right. I think all of that has returned now, but it's taken a couple of years and, you know, all the projections that we saw, wow, bankruptcy lawyers are going to be busy in 2021. Bankruptcy lawyers are going to be busy in 2022 from consumer perspective, I don't mean from a commercial perspective. And so it's come back a little bit.

00;46;00;16 - 00;46;25;14
Max Grover
I think we'll continue continue to see it come back. Our firm really during that period of time, I think got more and more commercial files. The bankruptcy code got amended to include small business filings, which previously you either file a Chapter 11 or you tried to file a Chapter seven or chapter 13 for the individual. And now a subchapter Fives is what they're called.

00;46;25;17 - 00;46;53;24
Max Grover
It really is a good option for businesses that have kind of got out ahead of their skis and are able reorganize. So we've filed a lot of those in the western district of Michigan. I think our firm may may be the number one filer of those this point, but our firm is really, I think, kind of not turned a corner, but just doing a little bit of different work, but in the same category.

00;46;53;26 - 00;47;17;21
Max Grover
But to respond to your question, my practice largely involves insolvency restructuring or bankruptcy. And I've represented creditors, I've represented debtors. And it doesn't necessarily mean in front of bankruptcy court. I mean, I may be in front of state court debt obligation trying to navigate settle it, especially if it's a one off right where you got a loan out.

00;47;17;28 - 00;47;49;27
Max Grover
Maybe you borrowed money from your former business partner and you're getting sued. So it's a it's it's a little mix of bankruptcy, insolvency and restructuring. But it always kind of centers around those three pieces. It's not like I'm not doing Social Security disability or Social Security or SSI or alternatively, I'm not doing personal injury. I mean, it's just, you know, I don't really get into those other areas because the telephone calls we get normally relate to either collecting a debt or trying to resolve a debt.

00;47;50;00 - 00;48;18;02
Max Grover
And then what percentage would you say is like personal versus business? I would say most of it's commercial now. All the things I've done so much litigation that I still do a lot of, like you know, personal files that I get called on. But yeah, I would say most of it is business. Business to business site disputes or business to like a loan or something.

00;48;18;05 - 00;48;42;16
Max Grover
Yeah. Does everybody that practices bankruptcy or in that realm, are they all litigators as well? No. I mean, I'm a little bit of an anomaly from the standpoint of I kind of go from bankruptcy court to state court. I've been in front of probate court of the tax appeals. I mean, right now I'm even doing an SBA denial appeal for PDP loan forgiveness.

00;48;42;18 - 00;49;06;03
Max Grover
So I'm a little bit of a hybrid between going between the worlds is what we call it in our office. And it's unique. I don't know anybody else that does that, but it also is given me, you know, a good base knowledge for issues that pop up in the world of bankruptcy that concern all of the state court issues.

00;49;06;05 - 00;49;42;21
Max Grover
It's very easy for me to identify those and some of the risks associated with them and all those things. The litigation side, like the I mean, yes, it's fact. Yes, you're talking about documents, but at the same time, it's still presentation and it's still emotion. It's so like, you know, I hear you talk about it. You know, originally I was like a little nervous being I help me to talk or I know in the past and I was talking about the headphones earlier with you, and then I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'm pretty sure you did like radio for college and stuff like that.

00;49;42;22 - 00;50;02;22
Max Grover
Yeah, my original. My original game plan when I got to CMU was to do broadcasting. So I'm like sitting here coaching. I'm like, Oh, the headphones are a little weird. He's like, Dude, I have been there. I will I will say audio class. My all time least favorite class in college is complicated. You know, you got to twist knobs, you got to make sure it's perfect.

00;50;02;24 - 00;50;10;09
Max Grover
So, yeah, know that was Funny, I did think about that when you were saying, Yeah, how are you going to do this? But I knew I was like, I've been here before.

00;50;10;12 - 00;50;12;03
Chris Prins
It's not my first rodeo, but.

00;50;12;05 - 00;50;38;00
Max Grover
But a next tires little bit is, you know, I've talked to Bill family and my brother and like both of them always talk about how well-rounded Nick is at all of it. And the litigation side to me like it's it's easy to draft something because you can sit and you can think about it and you can redraft and rewrite and resubmit and talk to somebody and go back.

00;50;38;02 - 00;51;00;24
Max Grover
But when you're up there litigating a one shot, right? I mean, you have you're making building a case, you're telling a story. And so I have that confidence. Like, it's pretty cool. Yeah, it's I mean, one of those are nice compliments. Both of those lawyers are good lawyers. And yeah, they're it it's a little bit weird to kind of move between the different courts.

00;51;00;29 - 00;51;23;28
Max Grover
For a practitioner, it's very unusual, but it's worked. It's worked well for me. And I think at the end of the day, if you can solve a problem and you can talk to people and you can get to what we're going for here, it you can practice in a lot of different areas. Yeah, you sort of you still have to have a persona to once again, back to that.

00;51;23;28 - 00;51;43;15
Max Grover
You have to be able to sell the fact that you're right, you have to you can't go in there and meekly talk about this point. And, you know, it's body language is projection. That's and then telling that story and defining it how it should be defined. And it's like that's the part that would be so fun but so complex.

00;51;43;15 - 00;52;02;21
Max Grover
And then you'd start over me. I'd start overanalyzing it, like, how am I standing right now? Like you want to take? Does that go through your mind when you're up in front of court or what? I mean, so not now. I'm going to get in your head next time. I'm like, No, no. So a couple of different observations with respect to that.

00;52;02;24 - 00;52;20;14
Max Grover
First off, you're right. I mean, like I said, you've got to sell your client. You then got to sell it. Judge And I'm not saying selling him, but I'm saying you got to convince him, right? Right. You got to convince him that you have the right position here, right? And you got to use the tools that your client is giving you.

00;52;20;14 - 00;52;46;22
Max Grover
And on top of that, which makes it, I think, difficult, is you got to manage your client's expectations. You guys got to manage your client's expectations in your line of work. You equally have to do that. But here I got a third party, the judge right. That is ultimately going to make the decision. And did I do a good job of managing my client's expectations and kind of looking into the crystal ball saying, here's what I think's going to happen.

00;52;46;24 - 00;53;22;16
Max Grover
And it's easy, you know, to get a file where not necessarily you've missed something, but like maybe I've done a better job of managing your client's expectations of what you could have delivered. But, you know, that's always hard. I mean, they walk in your door, you don't know the file, you haven't seen any documents on the file, You don't know what email that they've decided to send late at night after they've had a couple of beers and all of a sudden, you know, the expectation that you have for the file, not only for yourself but for your client changes because the material you receive changes.

00;53;22;18 - 00;53;46;25
Nicholas Laue
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Nicholas Laue
All seasons, Living is now in hudsonville to visit live all seasons dot com.

00;53;52;25 - 00;54;14;24
Max Grover
And we all like everyone but me and probably Chris and Nick would do this. I mean, but when you're telling a story, right, you're going to tell it in the best light for yourself personally, right? Like no matter who it's going to, people are going to leave out details or they're going to tell it with a different tone of how they talked about this expression or that expression when they're telling you what happened.

00;54;14;24 - 00;54;28;16
Max Grover
Right. Until you actually jump into the file and dig in and find those emails or like, do what you did what? Right. I'm sure you've had it. Like, dude, you did what? Right? Yeah, Come on.

00;54;28;16 - 00;54;39;25
Chris Prins
And I kind of picture like the game telephone where it starts. I want end. By the time we get there, it's like, All right, the story's not all what it began. Like, you have to tell like, eight or nine people that the same story. It gets misconstrued.

00;54;39;27 - 00;55;02;25
Max Grover
In naturally, though, like self-defense mechanism. I would assume almost everyone is going to tell this story, giving themselves the best light. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah. I think that I think that, you know, when clients come into your office, they tell you all the good pieces to the case, right? It's only the opposing counsel is going to tell you all of that.

00;55;02;27 - 00;55;25;13
Max Grover
Yes. And so you end up, where you end up is you end up really one managing your client to, you know, working with opposing counsel to find a solution that will get these parties out of the court system. I mean, our office is one I mean, we want to get a good result for our client. We're willing to go the distance.

00;55;25;18 - 00;55;58;11
Max Grover
But litigation is so expensive. I mean, it's expensive not only emotionally, it's expensive in the in the pocketbook, too. And, you know, if you're a business and you're wanting to pursue litigation, you know, one, it's a public document. I mean, is this is this a reputation you had out there? If so, it's fine. How can we get it over as quickly and as painless as possible with the best result, while also also having a little bit of corporate responsibility as well.

00;55;58;14 - 00;56;16;27
Max Grover
And, you know, you can get into cases where the attorneys can get rich and the clients can lose our firm. Historically, I think it's done a really good job of of managing that. And I think, you know, I think has served us well over the years.

00;56;17;00 - 00;56;28;08
Chris Prins
You mentioned earlier, too, you saw an uptick in like business bankruptcy. Is there a specific sector at all that you've seen kind of an increase over the last maybe six months to a year?

00;56;28;10 - 00;56;45;29
Max Grover
No, no, not necessarily. You know, manufacturing, I think, probably got hit the worst during COVID. Just supply chain issues, labor issues. You guys have seen the headlines. Yeah. So I've seen businesses that were crushing on the sales front, but then they couldn't.

00;56;45;29 - 00;56;47;02
Chris Prins
Make the product. Yeah.

00;56;47;04 - 00;57;13;09
Max Grover
Sorry, can't make it and then they can't make any money. Yeah. And I think also, you know, there was so much money available during that period of time that no one was really thinking about how is this going to come back and what is my business going to look like? post-COVID. And I think I think at the end of the day, I think there have been winners and I think there have been losers in all sectors.

00;57;13;10 - 00;57;35;22
Max Grover
Right. And, you know, I good accounting I see sometimes, but frequently I don't. Or, you know, business owners get shamed, right. This May be a business that's been great for a number of years and and now there's just been a change in the current that makes them get behind for whatever reason.

00;57;35;25 - 00;57;36;24
Chris Prins
Yeah.

00;57;36;27 - 00;58;07;00
Max Grover
And by the time they you know, by the time they get to our office, I mean it's one of the you know, it's one of the most difficult probably decisions in the first place to pick up the phone and call and admit has to be so hard to admit that you're having trouble getting some grounding. And what you know, anyone who's behind on business that and has personal guarantees associated with that that don't stick your head in the sand.

00;58;07;02 - 00;58;32;05
Max Grover
And a lot of times, you know, business owners don't ever think they're ever going to be there. Right. And then when they get there, they don't know what to do. Who I pay, what fire do I put out first. And then what ends up happening is either they make bad decisions, they take out new debt, more aggressive. Yeah, and I just have done this before.

00;58;32;06 - 00;58;55;26
Max Grover
I can get myself out of this. I built this thing. I've got your. I can get passes. I can get through it. So then you double down good money after bad. Yeah. I mean, in some in some circumstances. Other circumstances are you take money that's exempt to bail you out. Let me give you an example. Even put money away into a401k, All right.

00;58;55;28 - 00;59;19;14
Max Grover
And you go, I'll take a loan out of a401k. Well, that money no creditor could even get to anyway. And now you're taking that money into potentially a losing proposition. I see that all the I see that taking out of my 41k now goes into my savings or checking account. Now a creditor can go after. Yeah right right.

00;59;19;14 - 00;59;33;21
Max Grover
Wow that's yeah I heard it would be so fun to talk to you to is because I mean it's there's just so many of those nuances and in in all of life but especially with what you guys do or it's like dude.

00;59;33;24 - 00;59;41;17
Chris Prins
Yeah just have the conversation with you. Like at what point would you say someone should reach out to you or make their I mean, it's a case.

00;59;41;18 - 01;00;13;05
Max Grover
There's a yeah, there's a couple of telltale sides that we kind of see across the board. One, if you got a pretty large tax that whether you're a business or an individual, that's normally a pretty good sign. But federal government's going to get their money one way or another. We might be able to compromise it or other individuals that we know might be able to help you out with that that second off is how far behind are you with your secured lender, you know, whether it's a bank or otherwise, and what type of demands are being made right.

01;00;13;11 - 01;00;29;04
Max Grover
Is this a hey, is this a blip on the radar? And you really just need a lawyer to help you through a forbearance agreement to get you a little bit of relief that you're going to have to give up some information, you're going to have to give up some documents. You're going to have to be transparent with the other side.

01;00;29;06 - 01;00;59;03
Max Grover
You're going to have to admit, hey, look, I'm behind and here's how I'm behind. And, you know, my experience has been with lenders, especially in West Michigan, is if you're honest, transparent and disclose and you're able to make payments, they don't want to see you out of business. Sure. But it's where it's where you've gone six, 12 months and the bank has asked for information and you don't want to show them the grim details that the folks over at the bank get frustrated.

01;00;59;08 - 01;01;18;00
Max Grover
They get aggravated. Sure. Yeah. They want to know what's going on and they probably start panicking, too, right? I mean, from there. Yeah. Like, hey, like their job. That's right. I mean, it falls back on them, too. They have a collateral position. Probably with respect to equipment or real property. And they're thinking about, okay, where's my equipment? Where's it going?

01;01;18;05 - 01;01;40;04
Max Grover
Am I going to be able to liquidate this and deleverage my position with respect to this business? Is it is there a common trend of what obviously I mean, you talked about the tax thing, but is there a common trend in like what is pushing people in the bankruptcy or is it all across the board once again, business slowdown or medical debt or blah, blah, blah?

01;01;40;04 - 01;02;04;25
Max Grover
Like, yeah, business. I mean, businesses have all been kind of a little bit different. Have you hung out too long when you probably should have sold your business and moved on or otherwise reduced your overall share Labor Has your business changed? Right. And COVID was weird. I mean, you know, COVID was just nobody knew how they were going to come out of that.

01;02;04;27 - 01;02;31;04
Max Grover
People took leveraged positions as a result of that, and maybe it turned out well, maybe it turned out poorly, right? So I think with businesses I'd be looking at what's your position with the bank, what's your collateral position, What's your stuff actually worth? What's your real estate worth and what type of real profit are you making? If you take into account the other liabilities that you have, whether it's vendor debt or otherwise.

01;02;31;06 - 01;02;37;01
Max Grover
And and then, Chris, you have to go at some point on. Yeah. If we can keep.

01;02;37;06 - 01;02;38;23
Chris Prins
Going to you guys keep going, you keep going.

01;02;38;23 - 01;03;16;24
Max Grover
I'm going to keep you for a second. Just for fun. But I know you have. All right, You got 2 minutes. All right. But just kind of selfishly, like from we've done some lending in the past and, you know, bridge debt and that type of thing for people. What type of pitfalls you kind of see in that world, I would imagine it's mostly like, how is the debt secured and what is it for what what matters in those type of situations like, hey, I lent money to you promissory note to pay it back, but West Michigan is such a handshake deal frequently.

01;03;16;26 - 01;03;32;25
Max Grover
I think that we're fortunate enough on this side of the state, and I'm not saying he has his side of the state, but, you know, I think in a lot of ways I take a lot of people out there were on the west side of the state. And, you know, where I think problems come in at is where you didn't get the full picture on the front end.

01;03;32;25 - 01;03;51;15
Max Grover
And so if I'm lending money, if I was advising somebody that's lending money, I mean, I want to see the financials, I want to see the out I want to see the balance sheet. I want to see you see one package or you see search that's been done. What's your real position with respect to that? And then what's your stuff worth?

01;03;51;15 - 01;04;18;05
Max Grover
I mean, right. I mean, a lot of people lend money, at least, you know, privately where you didn't your appraisals done and you didn't know that they owed, you know, Greenstone Bank $1,000,000. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, this is a problem. Mean I'm, you know, I'm in second or third position. And now all of a sudden when they stop paying me, I don't have it.

01;04;18;05 - 01;04;45;18
Max Grover
I don't have any real recourse right. If the business fails, it's I'm in a bad spot. I have a case right now over on the east side that involves a restaurant and, you know, I represent, I think, third or fourth in line creditor to the table. And the situation is bad mean restaurants are one hard, I think hard to lend money on.

01;04;45;18 - 01;05;03;11
Max Grover
I mean, there are service industry. They got tables and chairs and unless they own their real property and a lot of collateral, that's that's you know, worth a lot. In fact I've seen you know and then a part of liquidations with respect what's up what's a HUD system worth after you pull it out?

01;05;03;18 - 01;05;04;08
Chris Prins
You rip it out.

01;05;04;08 - 01;05;05;08
Max Grover
Yeah, right. Still on.

01;05;05;08 - 01;05;06;24
Chris Prins
The table, $30,000 to.

01;05;06;24 - 01;05;11;22
Max Grover
Buy it. But, you know, rip it out, resell it. It's fine, right? Yeah.

01;05;11;25 - 01;05;15;09
Chris Prins
And and then you got custom tables and stuff and it's just.

01;05;15;12 - 01;05;35;11
Max Grover
And so when you have those situations, you know, whether you're the first, second, third or creditor in line, you want to do everything you can to keep that business operating because the only shot you got to get the money back in with the position. If you had to go, that's fine. You're again. Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Chris. He's got to get mad.

01;05;35;14 - 01;06;04;02
Max Grover
Yeah, he's got bigger, better things to do than talk to us. Important man f somebody with. I can't remember what were talking about. Oh, with position of the debt. Yeah. Like first, second, third, fourth position on debt. If you're the fourth position, does it go like is it a pro-rata based on or is it like hey, if 100,000 comes out and the first guy is over 100,000, he gets all of it?

01;06;04;05 - 01;06;35;06
Max Grover
Or do they does a judge take care of second or third or fourth debtor? Yeah. So let's just stick with 100 grand. That'll be easy. So I would say the banks owed 50. Yeah. And let's say the only real collateral is a crane, and everyone's secured against this crane, so the crane gets sold right. And normally Adnan sees like, you know, the auction, the auction sureties, maybe there's a lawyer involved.

01;06;35;06 - 01;06;59;08
Max Grover
I mean, all that stuff's probably going to get paid up first, because otherwise no one would want to do the work to begin with because there be no money involved. So those normally get paid first. And then you look at the deposition. So if I can wipe out, let's say there's 90 left after what we'll call admin, administrative expenses get paid, the first 50 is going to go to that first creditor and then the remainder is going to go to the second creditor.

01;06;59;08 - 01;07;28;03
Max Grover
And if they get satisfied, then some will go down to the third creditor. So the position on the collateral is really important and where creditors get in disputes with one another is whether or not they were properly secured. Did they give the right notice So there can be intercut ed disputes about what position. So the fourth creditor might be going through paperwork of the first, second and third to see if they can jump in position.

01;07;28;04 - 01;07;51;28
Max Grover
That's right. Did what was there was there a place that that you messed up. Right. And those issues, the larger the the positions, the larger the leverage position will become more and more litigious as you move through a given file. Goodness gracious. There has to be just so tedious, the paperwork on that and how important. It always goes back to the writing, Right.

01;07;51;28 - 01;08;10;27
Max Grover
Of the contract. And what's what's the paper? It doesn't matter at the end of the day with it in 10 hours. But what does the paperwork say? What does paperwork say? Did you give the right notice to you? Did you send it to the right people? I mean, all of that stuff. And then, you know, then you start looking at all the due diligence that you did before you were lending the money.

01;08;10;27 - 01;08;35;27
Max Grover
Right. Because immediately when you're not getting paid, especially in the bankruptcy context, you want to find out whether or not you have what's called a non dischargeable debt. And there's three big ones fraud, breach of fiduciary duty or embezzlement and then kind of willful and malicious conduct. And you look at those three boxes and frauds, the biggest one in the lending world.

01;08;35;27 - 01;08;59;03
Max Grover
Sure. Hey, did I get all the disclosures? Oh, this important caveat to that. Did the creditor reasonably rely on the information? What did they do on the back end? Did they go and pull this UCC search and know exactly what position they were in or were they taking the debtor's word? So All of that stuff, all those little nuanced details and circumstances.

01;08;59;03 - 01;09;40;29
Max Grover
And what people now become really important as you're either trying to collect against the debtor while they're in bankruptcy or in an insolvency place. And then to if if the debtor did do anything wrong, did the other creditors do anything wrong? Sure. Goodness gracious. Yeah. And and so I'm assuming to like at least even in in the real estate world where it's like a lot of those things do get missed a lot of times when things are going well and then all of a sudden, you know, expectation was this and now it blows up and then everyone goes, oh, and then now you're retroactively going back instead of trying to get in front of it

01;09;40;29 - 01;10;04;25
Max Grover
on the front end working with you. I mean, when you're when your guys are lending money or they're working on the front end through the whole file with you, or is that just always. No, I mean, it's never proactive, It's always reactive it normally is. And, you know, it all depends upon the circumstances of the creditor. Do we got like a relationship creditor?

01;10;04;27 - 01;10;26;01
Max Grover
Those tend to be the most complicated in my opinion, because one, this might be a one off loaning situation that they're loaning money they don't have, you know, all the knowledge of where am I supposed to file my notices that I see all the time where people lend money and they say, hey, I'm going to get a security agreement and they get a security agreement, right.

01;10;26;04 - 01;10;54;24
Max Grover
Well, you didn't record it. You seek one. And to protect your interest in the personal property. And that's that's one that. Will you dive into the UCC one because we see that a lot in retail leases and a lot of leases where there's a UCC filing as part of the lease and really what that means. Yeah, in the simplest terms, right, If you want to perfect is what it's called your interest against collateral.

01;10;54;27 - 01;11;25;27
Max Grover
You need to record something with a state body. So with respect to real estate, as you know, you get a mortgage, right? And you take that mortgage and you go and recorded it down at the register of Deeds. Sure. Well, that serves a couple of different purposes, as you're well aware, which is, one, you know who the mortgage holder is till you give notice to anybody else who wants record something or what is the debt situation against that?

01;11;25;29 - 01;11;52;01
Max Grover
The real property right there with personal property, it's not like a register of deeds available, which is where the Secretary of State in most states comes into play. So if I have a michigan debtor, I need to record in their UCC section of the Secretary of State. It might be in Michigan, but I need to record what's called a UCC one.

01;11;52;03 - 01;12;15;23
Max Grover
Okay, So if I type in the name of the debtor and I search for that debtor, whatever it is, West Michigan, whatever. Yeah, it will pop up all of the UCC ones that have been recorded. And I then know, okay, one, who are the creditors and two, what are they securing? Is it a is it a one off piece of equipment?

01;12;15;23 - 01;12;39;05
Max Grover
Is it just a crane or is it any and any and everything. Okay. So they get in the leases a lot of times will be written to claim any of the personal property inside that suite is, is where it starts out. Yeah. But then that it's funny, I see it in the lease a lot, but how many people actually go through and actually follow through with the recording of the UCC?

01;12;39;05 - 01;13;01;15
Max Grover
One of be surprised to see how often that really happens inside the lease. Well, and a lot of times, I mean the bank normally has a first position on rent anyway, so that always gets a little bit this is this is that situation. Yeah. This is more than a tenant situation, correct. Yeah. I mean the bank. Yeah. The bank's going to come in and take the building.

01;13;01;17 - 01;13;29;02
Max Grover
Yeah. So in that situation. Yeah. I mean look if you, if you were granted a security interest in the personal property of the tenant then yeah, you should probably record a UCC one to protect that interest. How expensive is that and how time consuming. Super cheap and super inexpensive. Surprisingly, it's. I don't know that the state of Michigan still accepts forms anymore.

01;13;29;02 - 01;13;59;18
Max Grover
I don't know. I haven't like, mailed one in forever, but it's an electronic form. You fill out the debtors, name the creditors, name their address, the description of the collateral, and and you're able to just, you know, record it and get it against the business card and then you're perfected and then that way, anybody else who comes along in this thinking about loaning money or getting an interest against said they know that they might be first, second, third fourth or whatever position.

01;13;59;21 - 01;14;26;03
Max Grover
And so, you know, when I'm doing a file where there's been a decent amount of lending or money provided to a given debtor, I want to know where everyone's at. I want to know when they recorded what they recorded against. Because like I told you before, there's all these inter creditor disputes where maybe you forgot to identify a certain category of collateral in your UCC, right?

01;14;26;05 - 01;14;51;09
Max Grover
Then all of a sudden a bad thing you go, Hey, look, that's a bad. They go, Hey, look, you're not you're not secured in this particular spot. And so therefore, the other creditor that's in behind you should get paid. You know, that is such a bad day. Yeah, well, I don't know how much time you have left, but I got to.

01;14;51;09 - 01;15;18;06
Max Grover
I got a couple minutes. Yeah. Good. Because. Go. 5:00. It's 445, right? Okay, perfect. I know. And this one's going to be a fun one because the and maybe you can't talk about this either, but student loan debt. Oh, yeah. And I know this seems to be kind of a passion point for or in a way, like when I hear you talk about it again, it almost seems like you're kind of on the front end of this and almost sound like you're painting your chest or something.

01;15;18;06 - 01;15;51;26
Max Grover
But I can see you kind of light up a little bit because it seems like you're on the front end of some of this, too. Yeah, I, you know, selling kind of my personal opinions. I really think education's a great thing, right? Sure. I just think the expense has gotten out of control. And I think the expenses has been driven in large part due to the direct lending that's gone on by the federal government with respect to student loans, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I think there's opinions on both sides of that.

01;15;51;29 - 01;16;20;10
Max Grover
But I also think that the bankruptcy code has been incredibly difficult to discharge student loan debt for debtors. That one the federal government is know is never going to collect against. But nevertheless, those those debtors need to live with that debt for the rest of their life until they pass away. There's just a level of unfairness that I don't like about the system, and that's why I think it's going to be fun, because I feel like I would somewhat have like I would fall somewhere.

01;16;20;10 - 01;16;43;14
Max Grover
I don't know where I fall in the spectrum, but I agree that like the the federal loan, right. Like that's the issue is that they continue to loan money, continue to loan money, which is a good thing. But then it also becomes a bad thing because college prices to drive up because there's a there's a never ending faucet of money coming out of the federal government.

01;16;43;16 - 01;17;22;04
Max Grover
Southern school costs continue to rise up. And then these people go to college. And, you know, I'm not trying to pick on anybody, but maybe they go into something that is not going to make the type of income to ever pay that that back based on their degree. And it's like the the hard part for me from that point of like seeing the discharge happened would be like technically that's owed back to the taxpayer who, you know, maybe that guy, this general taxpayers out there, you know, some people don't go to college.

01;17;22;06 - 01;17;39;15
Max Grover
So then there's always that conversation to like, why should I why should somebody not have to pay that debt back to the federal government, essentially me, the taxpayer, when I never went to college like that whole conversation? Well, I'm sorry. I And I and I think there's and I think there's other people on the other side, too, Right.

01;17;39;18 - 01;18;03;25
Max Grover
Which go, hey, look, I borrowed this money. I paid it back. You get a free ride. Yeah. I mean, that's the other piece of. That's right. I think everyone falls into different categories about how they feel about student loan debt. I think where I really fall at is one, I think the price of education, not just for this generation astronomically, but for future generations, is going to go up.

01;18;04;01 - 01;18;28;27
Max Grover
And in part it's being fueled by the federal government lending money and without really having you know, it's not like we're if I want to start a business, I need to go get a loan. And most small businesses get a loan from the SBA. Sure. Well, the SBA doesn't loan that money out directly. They have a lender boots on the ground lending that money out.

01;18;29;00 - 01;18;54;11
Max Grover
And so and so having some level of screening with respect to one schools, to the individuals that are attending these schools, I think is a good thing, not a bad thing, as opposed to everyone should get in a college education. Yeah, I agree. And if they if they fix that front end for everybody, I think it becomes a lot more palatable conversation because.

01;18;54;11 - 01;19;13;09
Max Grover
It's not a continued issue, but it's like you do feel horrible watching somebody that you know is struggling to get by and they have, I'm sure, see a lot more than I do or know about it because people talk to you about it more willingly. But it's like to watch somebody drowning in that debt just has to be horrible.

01;19;13;12 - 01;19;39;15
Max Grover
And on top of that, I mean, it's it I think it furthers the if furthers the reduction of the middle class. I mean, all of a sudden you have winners and losers. If I have two kids that, let's say, are of the same potential gay twins, they're going to Michigan State and they want to get an education. Sure.

01;19;39;17 - 01;20;08;28
Max Grover
And one of them comes from a family that does really well and they're able to, let's say, pay most of them. The the student loans. Right. They they can pay most of the tuition. Sure. So this this kid ends up with 20 grand of student loan debts when they leave Michigan State. The other kid of the same potential has to pay full freight, maybe mom and dad or are middle class individuals.

01;20;08;28 - 01;20;31;06
Max Grover
They they've done done okay, but not great. Sure. And they're putting, you know, maybe personal finances, retirement, etc., before maybe taking out parent plus loans or whatever the case may be. That kid comes out of Michigan State with 100 grand in student loan debt. You know, it's roughly about, I think, 22 or 25 grand a year right now to go to Michigan State.

01;20;31;08 - 01;20;55;18
Max Grover
That second kid is at such a significant disadvantage moving forward. One, they're both going to end up starting a family and one of them's going to have $20,000 in student loan that they're going to have 100 grand. They're each clipping it at whatever it is, 3%, 4%, whatever the whatever the Fed is. Right. That's a bad I just I don't like that in our in our society.

01;20;55;18 - 01;21;15;29
Max Grover
I don't like it from the standpoint of you're getting penalized for getting an education. You are is just expensive. I mean, when my dad went to school, they would talk about them paying for college because of a summer job. Sure. I mean, that's that doesn't happen any more. In the end. The return on investment is not great anymore.

01;21;16;04 - 01;21;52;02
Max Grover
It used to be fantastic. It's almost an expectation now to get that college degree. But then but then it all goes back to the root cause again. Because if the federal government wasn't lending endless Lee to people, the price of college wouldn't be going up 10% a year, abnormally high and college maybe be affordable. I don't know if it would be affordable or not, but I think it would have universities think about what their tuition is and what their what the value is that they're delivering and whether or not the return on investment for a given student.

01;21;52;02 - 01;22;17;12
Max Grover
And look, everybody's going to say, well, you know, you're going to work for 35 years, you can't pay it back in 35 years. So how how evil and sadistic is that for our federal federal government to, you know, strap down somebody with 100 grand in debt or let them, you know, 18 years old? We don't even let an 18 year old drink, but we'll let them pull out $100,000 worth of debt on themselves.

01;22;17;12 - 01;22;49;23
Max Grover
I just I I'll just say this. I just think there's a system that's broken, is broken, and I think it needs to get fixed some way or some in your in your working on this and some. Yeah. And that's it so I don't bring it up to solve. No you know so that so there's been a lot of I think good strides by the Department of Education and I think each new administration that has been put into place at the Department of Education, at least for the last I think several presidencies I think has done has done something for student debtors.

01;22;49;25 - 01;23;11;28
Max Grover
And they're always small steps. Everyone wants a big step. That's great. And I think, you know, student loan forgiveness, class board, which people would go, people would be I would be mad. Yeah. Yeah. I well, I mean, part of the part of the question I always ask people are upset about forgiveness of debt with respect to student loans.

01;23;11;28 - 01;23;34;29
Max Grover
I always ask I always ask them this one, because I always ask them is one question that is, how much money does the federal government, the Department of Education, collect from student loans annually? I'm sure it's and it's got to be in the billions that it is. It is. Then I asked in the the follow up question, which is how much does it cost the federal government to collect that debt?

01;23;35;01 - 01;24;00;21
Max Grover
Let's administrative cost 5%. I have no clue. So it's roughly and don't quote me on this, but it's roughly millions dollars greater than what they collect. So if the position is if the position is that, well, we don't want to give people forgiveness, okay. But we're fine with letting the taxpayers being a losing situation on the collection side.

01;24;00;24 - 01;24;26;02
Max Grover
I mean, it's it's it's there has to be a solution. And part of the doesn't come out in the media, but part of the program that Biden is trying to push forward would eliminate some of these smaller debt dollars that one are probably not going to get repaid or alternatively are going to be difficult to collect. There has to come a point in time where a debt has to get retired, period.

01;24;26;04 - 01;24;50;17
Max Grover
We should not have a position where we continue to try to collect that waste taxpayer dollars. So so you're saying in that right now, you know, somebody owes I don't know, maybe somebody went to college and they've got 25 grand in debt, but Maybe they're maybe they have some mental health issues or some drug issues and maybe they're homeless now.

01;24;50;21 - 01;25;14;23
Max Grover
I don't know, like the never getting repaid at the end of the day, the federal government has contracts with the servicers. Right. So then where does that leave trying to collect this guy? That is for sure. Never Going to pay? Yeah, that I could wrap my head around that. Yeah. So but I still that I go back to the record shop defaults shut the faucet.

01;25;14;26 - 01;25;39;03
Max Grover
Yeah. And put the boots on the ground like make it and then it goes like okay well you know now you're putting a control on it, but then probably needs to be some control like maybe, you know, use when we were growing up it was everyone has to go to college and now that mindset seems to be shifting somewhat of like, hey, like trades are important too, and, you know, reshoring, manufacturing and this.

01;25;39;03 - 01;25;57;21
Max Grover
But I think that discussion has largely been driven with the cost of education. I mean, if you have a kid who goes, I'd like to be a plumber, I'd like to be an electrician, and they can start making $50,000 a year immediately, or you can go four years, incur a 100 granted and then start making a $50,000. I mean.

01;25;57;25 - 01;26;25;01
Max Grover
Right. I mean, that's not even a good business decision. Right, Right, right. And I think also I mean, look, everyone doesn't need a college education. They just don't. And I just think that there has been a lot of pushing for that because the return on investment was so great for so long with a college degree. And I think over the last decade that return on investment has been completely wiped away or or is in the process.

01;26;25;08 - 01;26;57;01
Max Grover
And it's something that I'm not seeing and I'm not trying to undermine education. I mean, look, I have I have you got a juris doctor? I, I have you know, I have a law school education. And I'm not saying that education hasn't helped me get where I am at. I'm just saying that it's just not for everybody. And and but some of the value proposition, you don't even know if it's like, for example, like my wife went to college, she went to Michigan stage becomes teacher and she worked for three, four years as a teacher, great job for like she loved it.

01;26;57;01 - 01;27;18;20
Max Grover
But now she's a stay at home mom. And so values like she probably like if you really looked at business decision wise, you know, she had a quote unquote boss per se, they would have been like my mama, not just go work, go work for for eight years, as opposed to go get it, with the exception of maybe she goes back to work some day.

01;27;18;20 - 01;27;49;00
Max Grover
Right. And look, at the end of the day, do I think students that are struggling to pay their student loan debt should get out of school and immediately file for bankruptcy? No, that would be absurdly unfair and unreasonable, sure. But I just think that there has to be different safeguards in place that protect. Student said, If I've made payments for 15 years and I have continuously been behind but made payments, let's call it a day.

01;27;49;03 - 01;28;08;15
Max Grover
Okay. You know what's fascinating is all the other debts are dischargeable. What if I put my tuition on a credit card? Well, guess what? I could walk into bankruptcy and discharge that debt. But. But the credit card company wouldn't give you the money. That's. That's the difference. Okay, let's do it a little bit differently, then. Yeah, Please. I love.

01;28;08;21 - 01;28;34;20
Max Grover
Sorry. I refinance my home and to send my kid to school, I get behind him. Adele's on my mortgage. I lose my house. Yeah, but guess what? My doesn't have any student loan debt to share, so it's just like it's. I just think there has to be a good solution. And so that kind of brings me kind of full circle into what the Department of Ed's been doing.

01;28;34;20 - 01;28;54;11
Max Grover
Yeah, please. Yeah. So in bankruptcy, there's a thing called the undue hardship that you have to demonstrate to get a discharge in bankruptcy. And there's this test called the Brunner Test. I'm not going to bore you with the details, but essentially it's got three components to it. Number one, have you been making good faith payments or at least tried to make good faith payments?

01;28;54;13 - 01;29;23;12
Max Grover
Okay, that's an objective test 100%, Right? I mean, you asked the department, you did go out to Applebee's last month, then you could have put it towards this. The second part of the test is whether or not you are able in the future to maintain a minimal standard of living object once again, like objective, right. That's totally subjective and subjective.

01;29;23;12 - 01;29;49;27
Max Grover
Sorry subject. I mean, so how can a debtor come into court and literally demonstrate that they be able to maintain with the precedent, be like how you grew up? Would you meet the. Well, I mean, it's it's bottleneck. It's bottlenecked basically people in just a couple of categories. Are you disabled? Right. I mean, we're now moving towards are you disabled, are you not disabled?

01;29;49;27 - 01;30;17;26
Max Grover
And if you are disabled, you obviously can't work at the same level that somebody else of, same age, stature. Sure. They don't ask questions like, did you get a degree? Right. A lot of people that dropped out two years, two years, whatever. Right. Should they have to repay a Honda Civic for dropping out? I don't know. I mean, I you know, disabled disability would probably be one that you could get a lot of people behind.

01;30;17;26 - 01;30;41;09
Max Grover
I would have I would imagine. Yeah. And and so in any event, what the what the Department of Ed has tried to do is they've tried to take, I think, the subjective portion of the Brunner test and add presumption pins to it so that when a debtor comes into my doors and I see that they have student loan debt and it's got to be it's got to be pretty decent for me to touch the file.

01;30;41;11 - 01;31;00;12
Max Grover
Do they meet one of the presumptions on the subjective part of the test? Because then if the other two parts fall into place I'm good to go, I mean I really like I'll I'll, I'll at least try the case with the Department of Ed to see if I can get either a full discharge or a better charge. And so I think the department is trying to make it easier.

01;31;00;12 - 01;31;36;06
Max Grover
And I think where we're headed with all of this, we're headed to almost like an offer and compromise system for student loan. That's the same that we have with tax debt. And and I once again, I think everyone could probably wrap their head around it. And if the root cause at the beginning had some sort of realistic solution to it, where it was like where we don't just find ourselves the next generation in the same exact position of just buried in debt.

01;31;36;06 - 01;32;03;07
Max Grover
Yeah, the problem's two fold, right? One is you have to solve the debt problem to begin with, right? For everyone who took out loans and then too, you got to curb the debt problem, the lending side of the equation. Right. And so I think that the Biden program, the $20,000, whatever side you end up on on that one, I think eliminates certain loans from an administrative expense standpoint.

01;32;03;07 - 01;32;36;12
Max Grover
That makes sense to me. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't solve or otherwise fix the other stuff that's interesting. And and you're kind of on the you're kind of on the front end of some of this. Yeah. I have some of those filed actually right now in working their way through the courts. And I'm sure no expectation of how long that's going to take or you know, and, you know, frankly, though, I mean, being the front end is always beneficial from capitalism to get their first shot.

01;32;36;16 - 01;32;55;27
Max Grover
But, you know, you also you also learn about the system first and you may have an opportunity to influence the system. So it's one of those areas of practice that do we make a lot of money? No fascination at all. Do I feel like I'm doing some like good for debtors who are in desperate need of a fresh start?

01;32;56;01 - 01;33;15;01
Max Grover
Yeah, you better believe it. Like, I feel very strongly about that. And sometime as the cases I have speak more to me from a purpose standpoint as a lawyer and what my role should be in that community, that's awesome. They're making money. And that's probably why, like when you talked about and I kind of see you light up a little bit when you talk about that, it's pretty cool.

01;33;15;01 - 01;33;38;26
Max Grover
I just think it's a problem and I think, you know, your kids are going to have to deal with that. Yeah, when they go to school. And and not only that, right, it also goes to who do they marry, what type of student loan debt do they have? So even if I made the sacrifices in the world for my kids, if they decided they want to marry someone who's got a lot of student loan debt, it is that a is that a problem too?

01;33;38;26 - 01;33;58;13
Max Grover
Mine Is yours or mine? Exactly. So I just think it's a problem that's got to get fixed. I think the return on investment is is no longer there. Do I think? People should be educated 100% sure. I just don't think much like the health care industry. I just don't think it should cost an arm and a leg up on the side of that one.

01;33;58;15 - 01;34;23;05
Max Grover
Now in and kind of wrapping up here. Thank you, Juan, for your time. Yeah. So, I mean, is there anything you kind of I kind of pigeonhole us into talking about some of the stuff. Is there anything you wanted to bring up or anything you want to talk about before? I'll I'll I'll say this in closing. I mean, one, I really appreciate you on the show.

01;34;23;05 - 01;34;47;22
Max Grover
I really didn't know what to expect coming in here today. You know, you guys handed me an outline that was all of five lines and and I don't think that we got to one of them. No, I think you're right. So. So it's been one I mean, a great experience. And I got to say, I like I really enjoy being around young professionals that are in that what I'll say, 35 to 45 year bracket.

01;34;47;22 - 01;35;08;24
Max Grover
And they're they're in the rat race, in part trying to work at trying to it out, trying to hustle. I and the way in here I saw your guys assign hustle and be humble, right Yeah. And you know those two components they're they're hard to keep together all the time. But yeah, I just want to say thanks. I really appreciate being on the show.

01;35;08;24 - 01;35;30;17
Max Grover
And for all the young professionals out there, keep hustling and keep being humble. Yeah, I love it. Nick Lao, my good, good friend right now, Nicholas Lao Keller, partner at Keller. Amazing. Reach out to him. I'm sure you can find him the website or reach out to me and I'll text his personal information. No, thanks, but no thank you, Nick.

01;35;30;17 - 01;35;52;04
Max Grover
And yeah, big things to come for you, I'm sure. And we'll definitely have you back on do so and vice versa. Thanks. Thanks very.