Welcome to "Real Estate Insights with John Francis," where we explore the art of commercial real estate investing. Join John, an experienced investment specialist, as he shares insights on the market learned through experience. Whether you're a seasoned investor or a newcomer, this podcast tune in and unlock the secrets to success in the world of real estate.
Welcome to "Real Estate Insights with John Francis," where we explore the art of commercial real estate investing. Join John, an experienced investment specialist, as he shares insights on the market learned through experience. Whether you're a seasoned investor or a newcomer, this podcast tune in and unlock the secrets to success in the world of real estate.
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Chris Prins
Welcome to episode number nine of the Max and Chris Show. Thank you so much. We have John Francis here from Francis Realty, also fellow Car West Michigan board member. So thank you, John, for joining us today and being part of the podcast.
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John Francis
Thanks for having me. Appreciate being.
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Max Grover
Here. Can you hear? All right. The the headphones and everything? Yep. Chris, John Good. John was just complimenting our fantastic studio.
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John Francis
Yeah, it's very impressive.
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Chris Prins
I was just like, How.
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John Francis
Can you afford all this?
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Max Grover
Yeah, we're still looking for sponsors.
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Chris Prins
Yeah.
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John Francis
Contenders. Yeah. Yeah. The banks. Lawyers?
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Chris Prins
Yep. No companies.
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Max Grover
Now we're in where we were talking like we're getting. We are getting. I mean, the the downloads and the the the plays and everything continue to increase and it's just like it's but it's more fun, like it's more of a nerd thing than anything in this whole, this whole set up so.
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John Francis
I could treble this thing right.
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Chris Prins
You see, if you get.
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Max Grover
Each one of your kids to listen, then, yeah.
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John Francis
I'm sorry. This between you and me and our kids.
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Max Grover
Yes. Yeah, that's kind of like Chris and I are like, Okay, well, like, if we have enough people on, we will pick up each person's mom and they'll start listening. And by the end of it, you know, we'll have like ten, 20,000 different people's moms listening.
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Chris Prins
It's a domino effect.
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John Francis
And I a teenagers that are experts on all this stuff, they can just multiply.
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Max Grover
Yeah we'll book yeah we'll pay to boost it um social media threads or whatever the cool thing is, is that the cool thing is I actually like picking out like, did do you have any idea about like, what are they, would a kids use like threads or is it.
00;01;46;22 - 00;01;50;13
Chris Prins
Was it isn't a TikTok thing. Well that's still in I.
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John Francis
Can't keep up I like I downloaded Tik Tok once and then and I think I downloaded by accident and I deleted it sent so my son wanted to show me something and I didn't realize I didn't have to download it. So that's just how backwards I am.
00;02;06;15 - 00;02;34;02
Max Grover
There I've been doing. So I just started we've had like an Instagram page for actually, but then I started one for the Max and Chris for Chris Mac show and like I'll post different things that we talk about on the conversation. So I've been having fun with it, but then I'm like, I'm already doing I may as well do Max's two and like, so I've just been posting like wild memes and stuff like that and I see like an advantage.
00;02;34;02 - 00;02;42;13
Max Grover
We'll have a very professional, like breakdown in the markets stuff and I'm like some guy like doing crafty, like attacking interest rates.
00;02;42;16 - 00;03;05;01
John Francis
Like, well, you got to be disciplined. Yeah I know one guy that has a on air professional name and then he's got his real name and you know and I thought about that. It's like that's really smart. It's like he doesn't want the world to know where he is and knock on his door and yeah. And so he's he's got this multimedia social media persona that's not his real name.
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John Francis
I was like, I get it.
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Max Grover
And he's got a whole following and everything.
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John Francis
Oh, yeah, he's he's all over.
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Max Grover
Like politics or.
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John Francis
No commercial real estate, so. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.
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Max Grover
Who is it?
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Chris Prins
See.
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Max Grover
He's just like, bury me in the car. I'm like.
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John Francis
Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to reveal his secret because he probably doesn't want people to know that he's using our alter ego.
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Max Grover
That's a player.
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Chris Prins
You can you disclose the ego to him.
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John Francis
You know, because I don't want people to know that's not his real name.
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Max Grover
Okay, that's fair. Fair.
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John Francis
Maybe I'll offline. Yeah. Yeah. But his I've been really impressed with the stuff he pumps out on. You can also.
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Max Grover
Say it, and then we can have Luke do, like, a new trust.
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Chris Prins
So trust us.
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John Francis
He's going to probably hear this because he's got his own podcast. I'm going to just show you.
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Max Grover
Have you ever done a podcast yet?
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John Francis
Or This is my first idea what to expect.
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Max Grover
So and we go off the rails a little bit like, I know Chris always takes the time to do like a nice like agenda and stuff like that, and then I talk too much and blow it all off.
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John Francis
Well, look at my notes.
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Chris Prins
He's got some notes. I like the most prepared guy easily.
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Max Grover
Oh yeah, Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. But that doesn't surprise me because that's kind of your M.O., too.
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John Francis
But I'm not going to be reading at first, But I just wanted to, you know, when you're asking me these questions and it's like you got the history, it's like I want to be able to remember it all.
00;04;36;22 - 00;04;58;01
Max Grover
And we had owner of Mecca, David Lawrence, on the last episode, and that was my thing, like because I'm doing this Mecca program, the 12 weeks. So I wanted to have him on before and I thought him like and I talked the whole time asking questions. I didn't let anybody else talk. And then I'm like, after there was still like 30 things and I'm like, Oh, shoot.
00;04;58;04 - 00;05;10;26
Max Grover
Because he'd be like, all the sleep performance for athletes is, you know, nine, 10 hours of sleep. But then I'm like, What about a business person? Like, And I didn't answer that. So you always think of like, I always comes back.
00;05;10;28 - 00;05;15;23
John Francis
You know, it kind of reminds me of anybody go to the annual Econ Club dinner this year. I don't know. I just.
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Chris Prins
That's great.
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John Francis
Yeah. Yeah.
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Max Grover
So how is how that what once.
00;05;20;07 - 00;05;33;20
John Francis
Once I think it is. Doug Davos was the moderator, but he asked like I think he spoke maybe a total of 5 minutes total. Brady just went on and on and just great stories after great stories. It was an awesome event.
00;05;33;20 - 00;05;43;26
Max Grover
How how intense is he? Like personality. Is he like, pretty laid back when he's not on the football field because he seems like so intense?
00;05;43;29 - 00;06;12;03
John Francis
Yeah, it's hard for me to tell from from that because he was basically performing but he's he's he's regimented he's is part of his M.O. is like he's he was always for string fifth string third string. So when he finally got his chance and he had, you know, some of those some of those Super Bowls where he was down, I mean, he knew how to work hard and come back, you know, University of Michigan, He what was he like third string.
00;06;12;06 - 00;06;13;19
Max Grover
Until his senior year even, right?
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Chris Prins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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John Francis
So, I mean.
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Max Grover
That's such a I mean, what a cool story you know, And now, you know, he's.
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Chris Prins
I feel like he's transitioning now from the sports world to like, the business sense to like, I know he kind of got holds a little bit in that cryptocurrency stuff.
00;06;28;03 - 00;06;38;10
John Francis
So he's going to try to make up his income from he's trying to get on par with his ex wife. Yeah yeah. He wasn't getting paid enough.
00;06;38;10 - 00;06;54;03
Max Grover
Yeah, he was the he was chasing the money with her. Yeah. That's, that's crazy to gosh, he was good looking. He's not bad looking, but he's like he's like, too skinny now, in my mind, maybe not. I don't.
00;06;54;05 - 00;06;55;10
Chris Prins
I'll let you be the judge.
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John Francis
Yeah, I didn't look that close, so he didn't walk by me. So I was a couple feet away, but I didn't really realize it was him.
00;07;01;19 - 00;07;11;09
Max Grover
He seems like a good deal. Like everyone. Like in. Like a gronk who seems like more like people's people. Like he seems a lot like everyone seems to love him. So.
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John Francis
Yeah, yeah, I, I, I always loved him before, and I didn't. It didn't hurt that he came from Michigan but or not came from Michigan. Played at Michigan. But even if you're a neutral person, you heard him speak, you got club, you had to have respect to his story. And and it wasn't just about him, him, him. It was about the process of working hard and and and that's how success happens.
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John Francis
It just just happened because you're snapping your fingers and it's natural. I.
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Max Grover
I always like a lot of people to that are like I'm like a Tiger Woods or like we're like no matter what fourth quarter, Tom Brady's got the ball. Everyone's the defense, the coaches, everyone's like, oh, man. Like, you know, he's coming. Like, you know, he's going to do this. You know, he's going to be in there and like that mentality.
00;08;01;15 - 00;08;10;04
Max Grover
And to be able to like, bring that intense, like literally strike fear into like every like that's a it's a wild thing to have.
00;08;10;04 - 00;08;28;03
Chris Prins
It's rare. I also give him a lot of credit for he's got a little Derek Jeter and I'm too I like he's a competitor but off the field you never heard a bad story about either of them for the most part. I mean, he had a little bit the whole deflate gate with Brady, but for the most part, you didn't like him because he was you were opposing him for the other team that was.
00;08;28;03 - 00;08;30;07
Max Grover
Just wanting to win worse than anybody else.
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John Francis
Wasting. I talk about bad story about like there's been a few about Tiger Woods, you know. Oh.
00;08;35;13 - 00;08;40;07
Chris Prins
My God. I say Derek Jeter. The first year.
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Max Grover
Yeah. Tiger, Tiger. If you listen to this we're really sorry if you.
00;08;45;06 - 00;08;46;14
Chris Prins
Guys podcast Yeah you.
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Max Grover
Can totally clear your name if you ever want to come.
00;08;49;16 - 00;08;51;29
John Francis
Out. I became a golf fan because of him. I mean.
00;08;51;29 - 00;08;52;13
Max Grover
Really.
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John Francis
Oh how do you not? I mean, he was the greatest. Yeah. So, I mean, when's the U.S. Open beats? Rocco Mediate at Torrey Pines with a broken leg. So, yeah.
00;09;03;24 - 00;09;13;20
Max Grover
In just like in, it's like. Seems like those types of it where, like Tiger Woods, right? He makes I don't even know what it was for, but the the pot or the Nike ball.
00;09;13;22 - 00;09;15;00
John Francis
That was the masters. Yeah.
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Max Grover
Masters when Nike ball slow play into the hall like how does that like.
00;09;20;06 - 00;09;22;04
Chris Prins
Who gets that. Yeah it's so.
00;09;22;06 - 00;09;27;00
Max Grover
Like this but yeah sorry back to John.
00;09;27;02 - 00;09;40;23
Chris Prins
Had to take his back here. Well John, tell us a little bit about just kind of your how you got the commercial real estate. I honestly don't know where did you grow up and so where you come from.
00;09;40;23 - 00;10;09;09
John Francis
I'm a he's going to have pioneer so very proud of that. My I have a blend family of six kids three were are we're pioneers and three our grandmas Christian eagles. Oh wow. So I it started with my dad. My dad started Francis Realty in 1979. And even before that, he worked with several. He worked for Dodson Realty.
00;10;09;11 - 00;10;31;04
John Francis
He worked for some other people even before that. So for me, I real estate's always been a part of my blood. And I remember, you know, as a kid going through random empty buildings or having, you know, spots downtown and windowsills, watching parades. You know, I remember back in the day they used to have these crazy, awesome parades downtown.
00;10;31;04 - 00;10;58;06
John Francis
And like after the Gulf War, we had the tanks rolling through town and we had the president in town. And wow. And so, you know, you downtown back then had a lot of vacant buildings. And so we just purchased us on some window sale. So he managed trailer parks believe or not, he did office buildings and he was part of this series Paris Medical Building, Mackay Tower, among other things.
00;10;58;08 - 00;11;03;09
Max Grover
Was that his route into real estate was was a brokerage or was it management?
00;11;03;09 - 00;11;08;11
John Francis
So he really started he was a residential guy at West Hour. If anybody remembers what.
00;11;08;13 - 00;11;10;00
Max Grover
The buildings are still still.
00;11;10;00 - 00;11;34;18
John Francis
Around. So and I think actually someone should correct me if I'm wrong here, but Stan was Nijinsky. I think he started the commercial side on West Dow. Oh, really? But that's just that's just the history there. But so my dad figured out real fast that just residential wasn't his thing and worked with John Gilmore and did some management on some of his property.
00;11;34;21 - 00;11;49;09
John Francis
And then I think from there he worked with Dodson Realty. Dodson had of course. Mike Dodson Yeah. Ray Kaiser, the board, and Bill BOLLING. Oh, so my dad was part of all that, all that crew. And so that's, that's what.
00;11;49;09 - 00;11;55;09
Max Grover
I grew as a crew. Yeah, I mean that as a crew right there. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of personality in that crew.
00;11;55;09 - 00;12;15;27
John Francis
It's it's legendary. So just, just seeing that I'd seen the stories and the experience and the freedom and and some people, you know, my dad enjoyed it. You could just tell he enjoyed it and he, he had that entrepreneurial spirit. He always wanted to to drive and and get to that next level. So that that spurred me on.
00;12;15;27 - 00;12;23;17
John Francis
I went to college for real estate. You know, I tell people to this day, it's like I actually major in a real estate at Arizona State.
00;12;23;19 - 00;12;24;15
Max Grover
Oh, really?
00;12;24;17 - 00;12;25;22
John Francis
And, you know, I.
00;12;25;23 - 00;12;28;07
Max Grover
Just know what you do at Arizona State.
00;12;28;10 - 00;12;31;22
John Francis
So full of crap.
00;12;31;25 - 00;12;43;19
Max Grover
They got a hockey team, a D-1 hockey team, like, I don't know, maybe five years after I was out of school, maybe ten. If they gave me a walk on back in the day, I would have been there in a heartbeat.
00;12;43;19 - 00;12;46;12
John Francis
Like, let's just say I really enjoyed it.
00;12;46;14 - 00;12;52;21
Max Grover
I like Max. You're. You're not on this team. No, no, no. It's okay. I'll pay you two. Yeah, I'll pay to play here.
00;12;52;21 - 00;12;54;20
Chris Prins
Please spot it.
00;12;54;22 - 00;13;11;08
Max Grover
Yeah, they're great. Yeah. And then they had. Do they have the Phenix Coyotes playing in their college rink right now? Yeah. Imagine they got all the NHL players coming to campus, like, and they keep a section for student tickets and it's got to be just wild.
00;13;11;11 - 00;13;32;03
John Francis
Well, part of my memory there at Arizona State is I actually at one of our I was in a business fraternity coed. I would highly recommend it for everybody going into college. But one day a fraternity brother stood up and said, We got an opening at my job. And it was that he was a student equipment manager for the football team.
00;13;32;03 - 00;13;49;24
John Francis
But not only was it for the football team, as for baseball, basketball. And so I saw Division one, football and basketball that's firsthand and I even traveled. So a couple of famous names back then. And remember Bill Frater, You guys are too young. I don't.
00;13;49;24 - 00;13;55;09
Max Grover
Remember. I know his name. I know I couldn't sit here and say stat lines or anything like that.
00;13;55;11 - 00;14;02;02
John Francis
So Bill Frazier's team actually, again, I think a year or two later after he got fired by Bo Schumacher.
00;14;02;02 - 00;14;02;12
Max Grover
No.
00;14;02;12 - 00;14;18;03
John Francis
Kidding. And Bo said only a michigan man coaches Michigan because for some crazy reason, Friedel decided to take the job at Arizona State instead of Michigan. And Bo's not going to. We didn't allow him to coach there in the playoffs.
00;14;18;05 - 00;14;21;09
Max Grover
So no kidding. Oh.
00;14;21;11 - 00;14;31;10
John Francis
So but I think that blew up for free, too, because that famous FBI point shaving scandal, it was crazy. It was one of his players. Oh, no.
00;14;31;13 - 00;14;47;21
Max Grover
So that was like the maybe that's where I know the name from. It is like, did they they did like a Netflix on that and everything. And they probably like it 34, 30 probably. They're like, can't. The guy was calling. He was like, he was even making that much money from it either. Was he or was he paying off all debts or something?
00;14;47;21 - 00;14;48;11
Max Grover
Betting debts.
00;14;48;11 - 00;14;57;08
John Francis
Like I remember clearly as a college student, he was driving the most jacked up pickup truck that you could ever imagine. So he had to have money from that.
00;14;57;15 - 00;14;57;29
Max Grover
All right.
00;14;58;00 - 00;14;59;08
Chris Prins
So you knew where the money was coming from?
00;14;59;08 - 00;15;01;13
John Francis
Yeah, it had to be. But yeah, but.
00;15;01;13 - 00;15;11;15
Max Grover
Then then at the same time, like how many of those college age, high level college players, Not that they're shaving points and stuff, but we're getting paid and stuff like that in some way.
00;15;11;15 - 00;15;28;03
John Francis
Yeah, I don't know, but it's standard. But back in the day there is all these discount airlines that existed and you could fly from Phenix to Las Vegas for literally 30 to $60. And and then, of course, you you run into a few bookies and then the rest is history.
00;15;28;06 - 00;15;40;23
Max Grover
The next thing you know, you're shaving points. Surprisingly, nobody wanted a bad Bowling Green hockey games, even if they were like, Yeah, we're going to lose today.
00;15;40;25 - 00;15;43;05
John Francis
I mean, they were.
00;15;43;07 - 00;15;47;29
Max Grover
Like, Hey, just so you know, we're going to lose again tonight. Like, Yeah, we know. Yeah.
00;15;48;02 - 00;16;18;01
John Francis
Lie down on that one. Yeah. The other athlete was Jake Plummer. He was running back to back. He ended up being with the Denver Broncos. Okay. And then another guy was one Roque. He got this. This is, of course, a lion story. He's a monster of a man. 300, £340, six, eight. I think the Lions drafted him for their first round draft pick and I was like, and I knew that that was a bad, bad pick because he wasn't very caught.
00;16;18;02 - 00;16;20;20
John Francis
He was a monster. Remember, he was an ornate and.
00;16;20;22 - 00;16;22;06
Max Grover
And you'd watch him play and.
00;16;22;06 - 00;16;26;25
John Francis
Everything. I mean, you can dominate at that size in college, but not, not, not once you.
00;16;26;25 - 00;16;28;13
Chris Prins
Get to the pros. They all have speed.
00;16;28;16 - 00;16;29;11
John Francis
Yeah, right.
00;16;29;14 - 00;16;34;22
Max Grover
Every guy from college, every guy in pros is same size.
00;16;34;22 - 00;16;36;17
Chris Prins
It just comes out to speed.
00;16;36;19 - 00;16;52;10
John Francis
So when I was there, Rod Marinelli, the Lions head coach, he was the defensive line coach there. So there was a lot of coaches that spun off from that program. So I guess the point of the story is it was just a wonderful experience to be able to do that.
00;16;52;10 - 00;17;04;05
Max Grover
And that's pretty cool that you that and was that literally what your look obviously Arizona state's a blast but was the real estate program like you were looking at different schools and you're like hey I want to head down south or what.
00;17;04;08 - 00;17;20;02
John Francis
I started at Valparaiso and of course, back in the day, Valparaiso is middle of a corn field. And it just it wasn't my school. It drove me nuts. And so theoretically, I'm supposed to say that I went to Arizona State because they are in real estate as a major. But the real story is on file in a girl.
00;17;20;02 - 00;17;27;23
Max Grover
So that's great. So and then you're four years there and then right back to Michigan.
00;17;27;25 - 00;17;30;00
John Francis
It was actually three and a half years ago. Yeah.
00;17;30;03 - 00;17;30;19
Max Grover
Well.
00;17;30;22 - 00;17;35;00
John Francis
To be honest, I had to take an extra a little bit extra time.
00;17;35;02 - 00;17;38;09
Max Grover
And some of his credits didn't transfer that. So.
00;17;38;12 - 00;17;40;08
Chris Prins
Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that.
00;17;40;14 - 00;17;47;00
Max Grover
Yeah, that's great. And then you came right back to Grand Rapids after that. And so during say.
00;17;47;02 - 00;18;23;01
John Francis
Yeah, I started in fall of 94 in commercial real estate again, you know, my dad's story, I tell people I started on his shoulders. I had started like shoulders of of a giant. And so I was really blessed to have someone that patient and I guess blood's thicker than water type of thing. It's I get that that that helped me because it's a tough business to start it it yeah it's it's not like, you know, if you're an engineering major, some of these other major, you're coming out of business school and they're just going to throw you 60, 80 to $100000 at you.
00;18;23;01 - 00;18;52;04
John Francis
It doesn't work that way in, in commercial real estate and especially commission wise. So my my dad opened the books and opened everything to me. So every every meeting, you know, every, you know, all aspects of the business, he was just full disclosure with me. And and I see that because I later on in my life, I joined the Family Business Council here in Grand Rapids because there's, you know, two important entity in Grand Rapids because there's so many family businesses.
00;18;52;04 - 00;19;39;06
John Francis
But you don't realize that some families maybe are dysfunctional, you know, especially businesses. And yeah, and so in hindsight, you look back and how open and willing my dad was able to teach me and and we got into a lot of interesting stuff that just normal you don't do we we develop buildings within probably a year of me entering so and in back then 94 commercial real estate was really I'd say it was in its infancy You had downtown office space, you had maybe a building or two in Eagle Crest, you had Centennial Park, but you didn't have too much else.
00;19;39;06 - 00;19;53;22
John Francis
And of course you had your industrial building scattered here and there. But I guess the best way to describe it is if you look at East Paris from to the north, all the way to Cascade, you know, where United Bank is all the way back down to 28th Street, just.
00;19;53;23 - 00;19;54;18
Max Grover
Green, green.
00;19;54;18 - 00;20;24;05
John Francis
In 94. That wasn't it didn't exist. There was a wise patio shop in the middle. And I remember one day we we went to to a major family, their family office, and we had one that was old Kent County Plat maps, you know, the ones that really just crinkled up and whatnot. And we were, you know, had an opportunity to to present and we said you need to buy every single parcel from from A to B and they turned us down like, you're crazy.
00;20;24;05 - 00;20;24;23
Chris Prins
Yeah, that's.
00;20;24;23 - 00;20;30;08
John Francis
Farmland. But, you know, look at it now. It's like it's completely without.
00;20;30;09 - 00;20;44;00
Max Grover
We're just talking about a user that I have that's looking so hard to get into that cascade or even Knapp's corner market. And it's like they need an acre, acre and a half and it's like, where, where do you go?
00;20;44;02 - 00;21;05;29
John Francis
Yeah, yeah. So and part of that development is my dad had a relationship with the owner of Bill and Paul's at the time Bill and Paul sparred. House was at Fuller and Fulton, where the Salvation Army is. Yeah. So I think one day there his name was Bill Pearson telling my dad, What about Wise's patio shop? And my dad said, Oh, that's brilliant.
00;21;05;29 - 00;21;32;04
John Francis
That's a perfect place for for Bill and Paul. So my dad told that building to the Salvation Army, and then they Bill Pearson at the time developed that retail kind of a center. But then there was a little parcel right in the back when I say the back on the highway side and so that's a parcel that we bought and developed and built a 30,000 square foot office building.
00;21;32;06 - 00;21;57;23
John Francis
And we were so far ahead of the time in regards to suburban office buildings, they their first appraisal came back and destroyed us. We we couldn't do the project. We literally had to throw the appraisal in the trash because appraisers, as you know, they can only look today and yesterday. They can't look in the future. And the market was just on the cusp of changing and in a really big way.
00;21;57;23 - 00;21;58;03
John Francis
So.
00;21;58;03 - 00;21;59;13
Max Grover
Well, here is us here talk.
00;21;59;13 - 00;22;08;16
John Francis
That would have been 96, 1996. So we were able to finally get it appraised, built it, rent it up.
00;22;08;18 - 00;22;12;17
Chris Prins
Did you have any of it? Pre-Leased It was. This is a construction lead spec completes back.
00;22;12;17 - 00;22;23;06
John Francis
Yeah. My yeah, my, my, my dad's like first generation in this side. Yeah. So, and maybe at the time I didn't realize how, you know, at the time the 30.
00;22;23;06 - 00;22;25;29
Max Grover
Thousand square foot office spec.
00;22;26;01 - 00;22;32;09
John Francis
Yeah. You sign personal guarantee when you don't when you don't have a net worth what does it matter. Here you.
00;22;32;09 - 00;22;33;11
Chris Prins
Go.
00;22;33;13 - 00;22;35;13
John Francis
And for before I let.
00;22;35;13 - 00;22;36;14
Max Grover
It slide so bad.
00;22;36;14 - 00;22;56;05
John Francis
I didn't even have a house, I don't think at the time, so it didn't matter. So we are we leased that thing up and, and then shortly after that, Radford Construction built several of the buildings and, and at that point, the rental rates are going up a dollar or $2, $3, like just like that within within a year.
00;22;56;09 - 00;23;05;22
John Francis
Beautiful. And so it's it's it's interesting sometimes when you can lead the curve like that, but it's dangerous. I mean it's a and yeah.
00;23;05;22 - 00;23;11;00
Max Grover
You risk and you risk being not six months out of your time but ten years.
00;23;11;00 - 00;23;33;00
John Francis
And you have to do some sometimes speculative because people don't like to be the first for the most part. So you got to get a lease built or started and, and then and then people could well get interested. And then shortly after that, right up the hill and 40, 81 cascade, my father and I developed that one also.
00;23;33;03 - 00;23;35;02
John Francis
So that was that was kind of a.
00;23;35;04 - 00;23;38;01
Max Grover
The first in like the first three or four years of.
00;23;38;01 - 00;23;49;10
John Francis
Your as like, oh, this is how it is. So, so it was kind of fun. I don't want to say by any means was it easy, but that was my start to be a part of all that.
00;23;49;10 - 00;24;04;08
Max Grover
And what a, what a blessing. But I'm sure there's things to that, like pressure wise in that where you're like drinking from a fire hose and then you got high expectations from Dad and stuff like that. But still, I mean, what a what a learning experience.
00;24;04;08 - 00;24;19;24
John Francis
Yeah. So I was, I was trying to do that, manage the existing portfolio of buildings is trying to be a broker. I was kind of a jack of all trades a little bit and but over time I've kind of focused on what I really love.
00;24;19;24 - 00;24;29;02
Chris Prins
So what was it like working with your dad? Was he pretty hands on then, or would he just step back and say, Hey, figure this project out, then I'll help when needed.
00;24;29;04 - 00;24;54;19
John Francis
I guess the first thing I would characterize is two dancers that originally getting together and not knowing each other. You're stepping on each other's feed. You know, you're just you're stumbling and bumbling, and then after a while you get this cemetery. And I feel like over time, that's what happened with us. My strengths came out. I mean, little things like, you know, I was bringing in technology.
00;24;54;19 - 00;25;22;23
John Francis
I remember my as a kid, my parents would bring home the books. These ledger books. You know, back then there was no computers. And so you're literally every single check, every single reader, you know, think of like doing a cam reconciliation these days, whether it's 100% paper. Yeah. So, so he, he allowed me to go off on my own a little bit in regards to if in the day you still you have to create you have to you have to hunt and kill.
00;25;22;23 - 00;25;42;08
John Francis
You have to in real estate, you got to do it. So, you know, I had the fallback of the property management accounts that we had. But and then, of course, some of these developments. But I still had to go out and and and create my own and and but he was always there to be able to answer questions and give guidance and anything like that.
00;25;42;08 - 00;25;49;01
John Francis
So he always had an open door policy, but he was busy and as our right too. So yeah, there's only so much he could do sometimes.
00;25;49;01 - 00;25;56;16
Max Grover
But is is it was just you and him Is there siblings or anything like that in the real estate business as well that you.
00;25;56;23 - 00;26;08;12
John Francis
Know, it's just, just myself. Yeah. I had a brother that passed away when I was in fifth grade, and so I was just, you know, I was a only a single child.
00;26;08;12 - 00;26;10;07
Max Grover
So older or younger brother, he.
00;26;10;08 - 00;26;30;05
John Francis
Was he was older, older. And so, you know, that kind of brings up an interesting story in and it relates to commercial real estate and and you know, I love this commercial real estate community we have in West Michigan. It's it's really, really special. And so when things were going down with my brother, he basically he had a stroke.
00;26;30;05 - 00;26;51;16
John Francis
You know, he's a little boy. He was in fifth grade at the time. And like, you know who has strokes at that age. And so it was just crazy for my my parents. I remember seeing their desk back in the day. You had those dot matrix printers and they had bills from Spectrum Health that were probably like a foot thick.
00;26;51;18 - 00;26;52;09
Max Grover
Oh, my goodness.
00;26;52;09 - 00;27;16;13
John Francis
So where this relates to real estate is at the time my dad had a listing, I think it was in chess, our park neighborhood over by north of Leonard and Plainfield. And I think this is going to be correct. I think Peter Termite took over a listing for my dad and worked it, sold it and gave all the commission to my dad.
00;27;16;15 - 00;27;24;15
John Francis
Was my it was my it was my dad's listing originally, but he couldn't work. It and mean what a community to dissect.
00;27;24;18 - 00;27;27;13
Chris Prins
To say that doesn't happen in other parts of the United States.
00;27;27;13 - 00;27;30;19
John Francis
No. And we have a good thing here. And I and.
00;27;30;19 - 00;27;37;08
Max Grover
And and that's a competitor, too, right? I mean that's not they're not in the same office that he's picking. It was literally.
00;27;37;08 - 00;27;53;23
John Francis
Like I think Peter just just stepped up and said, I'm going to take over this listing for you. I know you got a lot of things that you're, you know, on your on your mind and that's really cool. And and my dad wasn't expecting that. You know, he was trying to service his client at the time. But, you know.
00;27;53;25 - 00;27;55;14
Max Grover
A lot more going on than that.
00;27;55;21 - 00;28;08;07
John Francis
And as you know, us real estate guys, we don't have our insurance Probably not is not the greatest cash. Yeah so yeah that's a little bit of history and background of.
00;28;08;09 - 00;28;18;08
Max Grover
Was it My brother had a brain aneurysm. He should be dead at 18. Had to relearn walk, talk the whole nine yards. I mean, he said it was an aneurysm or.
00;28;18;14 - 00;28;22;20
John Francis
It was an aneurysm. Yeah. He had blood vessels in his and his head exploded.
00;28;22;26 - 00;28;27;02
Max Grover
Seat, and my. So he should be dead. So it's crazy.
00;28;27;04 - 00;28;31;02
John Francis
I and it was surreal to me. You know, when you're a little kid, you just don't, you know.
00;28;31;06 - 00;28;32;26
Max Grover
Yeah. Yeah. How do you even process.
00;28;32;28 - 00;28;33;00
Chris Prins
How.
00;28;33;06 - 00;28;51;12
John Francis
I did it? I mean, you know, I remember at sitting at a it is a Wednesday, Wednesday night I was sitting at a dinner table with the four of us, my parents and my my brother and I. And I think I had got him in trouble because I had him swearing at school. And so I told on, of course.
00;28;51;19 - 00;28;52;22
Chris Prins
And so you should.
00;28;52;23 - 00;28;57;08
Max Grover
How you can't be seen. We got a reputation. So he was.
00;28;57;08 - 00;29;08;25
John Francis
About to get in trouble and I'll say and he's is he said he had a headache and so he went upstairs and then I went on in the next room and started watching The Gong Show. So I'm going to probably show my age here when I'm talking about that.
00;29;08;25 - 00;29;10;07
Max Grover
And that's over my head.
00;29;10;07 - 00;29;33;03
John Francis
To great show. You do it right? So that night, you know, it went down heavy. And I remember getting woken up in there all night and my parents took me to the neighbor, the neighbor to to sleep. And, you know, they he went into the hospital and he had emergency surgery. And then before you know it, he's in this coma.
00;29;33;06 - 00;29;51;01
John Francis
And a and what does that mean? What's a K? And how do you how do you describe a coma to a kid that's in second grade? And, you know, he's is it a you know, I just thought he had a lot of anesthesia and he's just going to at some point he's going to wake up. So he never woke up.
00;29;51;03 - 00;29;53;26
John Francis
He was in this coma for years and years and years.
00;29;53;29 - 00;30;11;28
Max Grover
And then that's kind of like set, I mean, for your whole family, like a different path of like how you just look at life to like from like a like an innocence perspective as a little kid all the way to like your parents and like, what is important And.
00;30;12;00 - 00;30;12;19
John Francis
It yeah.
00;30;12;21 - 00;30;15;03
Max Grover
Just I would be I couldn't I can't even imagine it.
00;30;15;03 - 00;30;36;21
John Francis
Affected all of us in different ways. Yeah. So I think my parents would have to tell you, like, how did it really affect John Francis? I mean, so it's, it maybe it's made me more independent and. Sure. And maybe a loner. It doesn't bother me as much because I'm just used to being a single kid. But we're getting into psychology now.
00;30;36;24 - 00;30;39;02
Chris Prins
I told you.
00;30;39;05 - 00;30;39;23
John Francis
You have the couch.
00;30;39;23 - 00;30;42;08
Chris Prins
I can tell you all my. But you don't want.
00;30;42;08 - 00;30;46;03
Max Grover
Me to deep dive into your all that. Christie Yeah.
00;30;46;05 - 00;30;49;14
Chris Prins
We got some booze in the back.
00;30;49;17 - 00;31;13;18
Max Grover
And it's wild. That's. Yeah. And then from. So you're college working for Dad and then starting to get into development and how long I mean, are you brokering deals as well at this time? And you said you were getting into the property management, which I think is such a good base for people to really understand. Real estate is that property manager inside.
00;31;13;18 - 00;31;15;03
John Francis
But oh, yeah, I.
00;31;15;03 - 00;31;16;23
Max Grover
See you're touching every.
00;31;16;23 - 00;31;36;24
John Francis
Piece, you know, what am I selling points that I tell people. And when I do a deal with someone, it's like I've worn I've worn the owner hat, you know, I've worn the developer hat, the property management hat, the broker hat. So those are all different perspectives. And so, for example, when you look at a broker, pro.
00;31;36;24 - 00;31;38;06
Max Grover
Forma.
00;31;38;08 - 00;32;05;09
John Francis
And it's like, I'm I'm sorry, Mr. Broker, do you understand how a building lives and breathes over five, ten years or how it changes, how it interacts? I mean, I can see that from a valuation standpoint as a as a future owner coming in or representing a client's like, look, you're going to have to anticipate this, this and this, this, these kind of expenses or or because of this certain feature of this building, it may be harder to lease up and may take longer.
00;32;05;12 - 00;32;06;27
John Francis
So I can I can add that.
00;32;06;29 - 00;32;07;19
Max Grover
That your.
00;32;07;20 - 00;32;13;09
John Francis
Perspective. So those different skill sets have I think have helped have helped me.
00;32;13;11 - 00;32;34;10
Max Grover
And and then I've been I mean I've been to some of your properties that you manage as well and they're meticulous to you are on top of it, They're clean and taking care of it. It's not like the the grasses and overgrowing and the you know, the landscaping is 20, 20 years too old and the back is caput like it's sharp and ticking.
00;32;34;12 - 00;32;50;20
John Francis
Well, in in, in in real estate, you got to keep on putting money back into your building. You can't I, I've told myself, I said I never want to get involved with a client that just wants to suck a building dry because especially as a property manager, I don't want to have to make excuses because that's a reflective on me.
00;32;50;25 - 00;32;51;09
Chris Prins
Yeah.
00;32;51;11 - 00;33;10;28
John Francis
And you know, and that's some of this business that's in there. That's how they make money. And, and I've always had the, the mindset is, look, all I do is I provide a white box and inside that white box you do you sell something, you make something. And if that white box is somehow interfering with your business, that's that's not a good thing.
00;33;11;04 - 00;33;20;11
John Francis
So my my job is to create is less interference inside that white box as possible, which is the building wherever they wherever someone operates.
00;33;20;13 - 00;33;47;00
Max Grover
That's awesome. That's a good way to look at it. And it it shows to I mean, literally shows that at your property. So yeah, very cool. And then are you is there a certain type of property? I mean, you started developing office, it sounds like, and then is there been certain property types that you've trended towards buying, developing that you like better, or is it just kind of ebbed and flowed with the markets?
00;33;47;03 - 00;33;54;16
John Francis
So it did start with office. That was pretty damn predominantly what I was doing and.
00;33;54;18 - 00;33;56;27
Max Grover
Is that what your dad was brokering as well.
00;33;56;27 - 00;34;24;28
John Francis
Before he lit up a lot of office in managing, but pre-COVID well before COVID, I felt the headwinds on office and I felt like if I'm going to continue to grow, I got to adapt. And so I like to say I call I call it a pivot point. And so I pivoted into industrial, and that was a phenomenal, phenomenal time to to do that.
00;34;25;00 - 00;34;49;21
John Francis
That was probably at least ten, 15 plus years ago. And there was just more velocity, more things, things happening. And so that's what I started owning. And back then you didn't you weren't competing again in as much with the owner users. Now that's what you're competing with. And as an investor, it's pretty hard to to for someone like myself to add to.
00;34;49;24 - 00;35;06;22
Max Grover
What was it about office that I mean, like for me, like when I look at office, the hard part for me is like, you'll go into space and I'll be clean. Sharp You're like, Yeah, we can releases and then you get the next group and they're a strong group, but they're like, Sorry, none of this works for Terry at all.
00;35;06;25 - 00;35;14;17
Max Grover
Restart Is that what you started seeing for the headwinds or what was the kind of the things that you're like? So tipping you off to that.
00;35;14;19 - 00;35;25;00
John Francis
From a property management side, it's a harder manage in the sense that that's, that's where, you know, between dealing with janitorial.
00;35;25;00 - 00;35;28;18
Max Grover
The all the common face and common areas and stuff people.
00;35;28;24 - 00;35;54;03
John Francis
People complain you're not going to get someone complaining about HBC and industrial building you know for the most part or janitorial and so you, you have a little bit of higher level of service that needs to be and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's just, you know, that just leads to more expense. If a office building is it's not uncommon for it to be vacant for a month to six months to a year to two years.
00;35;54;03 - 00;36;17;16
John Francis
I mean, we've all know those spaces that are that are vacant like that and that costs money. And then when, when and if you fail, I just like you were talking about Max is like you could have it perfectly didn't reasonable space, a beautiful space. And the next person says, that doesn't work for me. Blow it out. So then you have to spend money on that or.
00;36;17;18 - 00;36;35;23
Max Grover
Or even then we talked about this on another podcast, but it was I think it was Doug changes that told me is like, hey, the landlord that's willing to pay to get the tenants going to get them. And as far as office goes and who's going to put up the tie dollars because that's real too. Where, where you're a tenant, you're looking at a guy, I'm not going to build your space out for you.
00;36;35;23 - 00;36;44;21
Max Grover
So they're coming back to the landlord and adjusting all those amortization schedules and trying to put it back in. It's it's a tough it's a tough game.
00;36;44;21 - 00;37;04;03
John Francis
So you either go back to the bank and get a line of credit and, you know, based on whatever the interest rate is at the time you're paying that or you just reserve a lot of cash. You know, I have some office buildings. I'm it's north of $100,000 that are just cash is sitting there because it has to be reserves.
00;37;04;03 - 00;37;25;04
John Francis
Well, that cash should be in my investor's pocket that just sitting in the bank waiting for some, you know, contingency. Yeah. You know, so those are kind of the some of the things that I'm not saying that I wouldn't, you know, be attractive office buildings now. But I what I say is nobody's going to sell me based on my underwriting.
00;37;25;11 - 00;37;29;26
John Francis
A lot of people don't want to sell me their building at go. I don't go.
00;37;29;26 - 00;37;47;12
Max Grover
To the owner occupant. Wait before it gets to you. Yeah. And then from there to like from the the management side of like, were you managing industrial before you got into it and watching the different pieces or did you just start getting into you're like there's something to this big simple box that I like. You know.
00;37;47;12 - 00;37;55;11
John Francis
We, we had manage some industrial before that. So I did have that experience with, with both, you know, the management before the ownership. Where was.
00;37;55;14 - 00;38;00;21
Chris Prins
First project from the industrial standpoint, Was it Spec Builder or buy an existing building.
00;38;00;24 - 00;38;02;25
John Francis
Like first industrial building that was associated.
00;38;02;25 - 00;38;03;27
Max Grover
With that you bought.
00;38;04;00 - 00;38;04;28
Chris Prins
You bought.
00;38;05;00 - 00;38;05;10
Max Grover
That I.
00;38;05;10 - 00;38;06;03
John Francis
Bought.
00;38;06;03 - 00;38;08;08
Max Grover
Or developed, cleaned up, whatever.
00;38;08;10 - 00;38;14;06
John Francis
So now it's a 960 West River Center drive, no way across from 940, the one that.
00;38;14;13 - 00;38;15;15
Max Grover
I did, the John Grace.
00;38;15;19 - 00;38;19;00
John Francis
Yeah, Yeah. So is that where they are now.
00;38;19;06 - 00;38;30;22
Max Grover
John Grace is I can't remember their exact address, but they bought the building next to you and they looked at maybe possibly purchasing that building that had their gymnastics studio in it.
00;38;30;22 - 00;38;50;21
John Francis
So that building so the building I bought was at the time was owned by Mack Tower. So that was the that was the blood and water tower post-wedding a yes. And so that that's how it started. And then shortly after that there's 943 West River Center Drive that went up and I figured I might as well buy that one too.
00;38;50;21 - 00;38;51;04
John Francis
And it was.
00;38;51;08 - 00;38;51;29
Max Grover
Naturally.
00;38;52;07 - 00;38;58;12
John Francis
So we did. And then that was kind of where it started. I haven't I haven't built one. I usually I don't.
00;38;58;14 - 00;39;10;17
Max Grover
Is that sorry to we'll go back to but is that when you're are you doing this with a group. Are you is this John is this Francis Realty doing. And you know, if you don't want to talk about that, that's fine too.
00;39;10;19 - 00;39;11;18
John Francis
No, I'm an owner.
00;39;11;18 - 00;39;15;08
Max Grover
You partner, you partner with people, are you?
00;39;15;10 - 00;39;34;14
John Francis
So, yeah, I partner with everybody. I don't feel like I need to be 100%. I want to be able to keep my powder dry for for other deals. I mean, I grew up playing Monopoly, and I had that strategy where I wanted to own every single property. And, you know, it doesn't matter if it was Baltic or Mediterranean or anything like.
00;39;34;16 - 00;39;58;28
John Francis
So I have several different ownership groups and I do that because, you know, investing in commercial real estate, you're you're giving me or, or somebody, whoever is in it is 5000, $500,000 and may not not see that for a while. So you got to be able to have the mindset that you may not even see it back if it's a bad investment.
00;39;59;00 - 00;40;25;04
John Francis
So there's not a lot of people like that. So usually I spread their IRA out to a couple of different people and and and I need those investors, those several groups because sometimes someone's putting their their daughters get married or their kid putting their kid through school. And so, you know, you got to go to the next person or for whatever reason they it's just not the the type of property they want or the or the risk profile.
00;40;25;07 - 00;40;26;04
John Francis
So interesting.
00;40;26;09 - 00;40;39;21
Max Grover
And then and then you had asked about new construction versus existing thing and what you're focusing on for the industrial or any market. I mean, are you doing a lot of have you done a lot of construction, new construction or.
00;40;39;24 - 00;41;13;19
John Francis
Not too much? I try to stay away from that. My father and I, one of our last developments was 4940 Cascade Road. It's the three story front glass building on on Cascade Road down from Forest Hills forward. And that was one of those Murphy's Law. I think if something bad could happen, it happened. And you know, from, you know, neighbors and, you know, the NIMBYs and, you know, going to the Ada Township Planning Commission meetings and the adjacent neighbor, residential neighbors saying that somehow the site of an office building is the worst thing in the world for them, and they couldn't see it.
00;41;13;19 - 00;41;15;00
Max Grover
So it made sense.
00;41;15;01 - 00;41;37;24
John Francis
And literally on a 45 degree slope made us put like 20 to 30 foot pine trees to to block us from the property. And so it went on and on and on. And so for literally for one year, I could not sleep. It was just and I just that's not my my personal DNA. So I'd rather buy something with, you know, little even if it's like just limping cash flow.
00;41;37;24 - 00;41;48;01
John Francis
I'd rather do that. And and I'm not saying that development. I mean, leaving a lot of money on the table, those developers, you can make a lot of money, but there's a lot of risk associated with it.
00;41;48;04 - 00;42;16;17
Max Grover
There's a there's a ton of risk but there's there's risk in any of it too, because like, I could I could sit here and be like, okay, well, yeah, you're going to go buy the building that's limping along cash flow. Like, what's the issue? Yeah, and why is it limping and why isn't it leasing? But yeah, with your background and your knowledge, that's probably where you feel comfortable plugging in and be like, Dude, if you just did this change, if you just made it simpler from a landlord perspective to actually your brokerage perspective to lease it, like we could totally turn this building around.
00;42;16;18 - 00;42;37;00
Max Grover
Yeah, and that's, that's real to I'm sure you I know I have where you deal with somebody that's like you just can't do a deal with the person and they own the building and it's like they should be full and they're not. And there's those opportunities too. Or what do you see in like when you purchase existing? Are you looking at those types of issues of building.
00;42;37;02 - 00;43;03;12
John Francis
Actually like buildings with, with what I call hair on them because I feel like I can't there's, there's that problem that needs to be solved that you know and I and a lot of times I try to I think I go in these deals with with an ace up my sleeve that I mean if you're not going into these deals with an ace up your sleeve, then down or sitting on the wrong side, which is basically a plan, if you don't have a plan, then yeah, you are going to run into some trouble.
00;43;03;12 - 00;43;08;22
John Francis
And you know, each circumstance. I feel like there's a place where I can turn that volume up.
00;43;08;28 - 00;43;10;29
Chris Prins
Yeah, that's also had some value.
00;43;11;01 - 00;43;40;09
Max Grover
And I think just having known you and like you're always able to almost slow things down and like get you don't get too into the weeds. I'm not saying that, but you find the detail and a lot of things and you just look at things a little bit different, just being on the board with you and dealing with you and some of the things where it's like, I can tell that about you, where you're like, you can find those important details, those key facts, and but you're not if you get too caught up in it, you're just not going to do it right.
00;43;40;12 - 00;43;42;13
Max Grover
Like if you worry about everything.
00;43;42;13 - 00;43;54;20
John Francis
Oh, there's there's thousands of variables in any kind of project. And it yeah it yet it you got to focus on the important things and and the other stuff is just distractions so.
00;43;54;22 - 00;43;59;20
Max Grover
Huh. What about and I know self-storage too I mean are you.
00;43;59;22 - 00;44;00;20
Chris Prins
Yeah. So talk about.
00;44;00;20 - 00;44;02;23
Max Grover
That or not. Yeah.
00;44;02;26 - 00;44;24;10
John Francis
So we were talking about, you know, I started with the office and then I pivoted to, to industrial and then about five or six years ago, I pivoted to self-storage and I had a investor of mine that was really pushing me hard on this, you know, what about this self-storage thing? And I consider myself pretty conservative. And it's like it's one of these things.
00;44;24;10 - 00;44;54;24
John Francis
It's it's what I don't know that scares me. And in real estate, I mean, you can lose it all in one on one deal. And finally it just clicked and we found a deal up in Greenville that a developer had already already started. He probably got it about 70, 80% complete. And and he was looking to sell. And unbeknownst to myself and my investor at the time, we self-storage was just about to take off.
00;44;54;24 - 00;45;10;26
John Francis
It was probably a year or two before it really went haywire. I mean, in a good and a good way. And, and so that particular site that we started with, we bought the existing site. We expanded it in two different phases.
00;45;10;26 - 00;45;17;09
Max Grover
Do you remember why the developer was he? He was already constructing and underway, like what was his.
00;45;17;11 - 00;45;24;02
John Francis
So I he may hear this, but I think he had a Brazilian mail order wife and he was getting a divorce.
00;45;24;02 - 00;45;26;03
Max Grover
And so.
00;45;26;05 - 00;45;27;14
Chris Prins
I think with.
00;45;27;17 - 00;45;27;27
Max Grover
Yeah.
00;45;27;29 - 00;45;30;03
John Francis
I'm actually serious.
00;45;30;05 - 00;45;35;29
Max Grover
So how much is there a Web site for that?
00;45;36;01 - 00;45;57;00
John Francis
So yeah, we were able to pick that one up. But literally at the same time that deal was happening, there was another building, another self-storage facility across town and again I said, okay, if I'm going to buy one, I might as well buy two. And and that particular one was had staff in it and. And the first one I bought was all technology.
00;45;57;02 - 00;46;07;15
John Francis
And I thought, well, you know, I'm you know, I was going to at the time that my staff is going to hear this and they're going to freak out. But I was like, I'm going to buy this. I'm going to fire everybody.
00;46;07;15 - 00;46;09;02
Chris Prins
And I'm.
00;46;09;03 - 00;46;28;21
John Francis
Going to go all technology. But what I've learned is you have to have a balance of both. You need those people. And my people are phenomenal. I you know, I do hope as they hear this, they've done a really good job by me and a good job and what they do. But self-storage is a lot about technology and it's it's a hub and spoke system.
00;46;28;21 - 00;46;37;03
John Francis
You have a master property management software and from there you can you sell insurance to tenants, you know, give them gate codes.
00;46;37;06 - 00;46;44;08
Max Grover
Ease of use. Right. Because if it's easier to go rent from you, you're going to go there. If there's another competition or something like that.
00;46;44;08 - 00;47;05;29
John Francis
So and then COVID hit. And for those two months, I think everybody in general freaked out for about two months. And COVID like what's going to go on? And then and then also and it just exploded. I mean, I was counting my vacancy literally in minutes. I mean, I would have a vacancy and I'll send it would, you know, at a couple of times I even had 100%.
00;47;06;02 - 00;47;25;03
John Francis
And if if, if and the other thing about self-storage is that's just technology. Exactly. It's pricing. And if you're at 100%, you have underpriced your product. And so you got to keep on driving that up because someone else will pay. And they do. Yeah.
00;47;25;07 - 00;47;39;19
Max Grover
So and and that's a complaint from like the smaller local operator versus like the big nationals that you hear where it's like, hey, every month you're getting an increase on some of these self-storage facilities. Where how do you manage that part of it?
00;47;39;24 - 00;48;01;07
John Francis
Yeah, they have their their formula as well. We do the same thing we have and there's different ways of raising their answers. You have what is called the rack rate, the retail rate that you would that that's advertised at. And you can raise that without raising the existing tenant's rent. So the person who pays that rack rounds that new tenant.
00;48;01;09 - 00;48;25;06
John Francis
But then the other thing you do is if you have a healthy occupancy and then you feel like you're not going to have too many tenants leave every ten months, you raise rents and. It's there's there's internal formulas and programs for that. So, yeah, you know, I'm getting essentially double double rent increases sometimes is from the from the rack rate increase to the to just raising rents naturally.
00;48;25;08 - 00;48;29;27
Chris Prins
And what are the sizes of those units that you have them up in Greenville.
00;48;29;29 - 00;48;48;23
John Francis
So both sites actually have three sites now, but two of the sites they have climate control. So there's the smallest is five by five. I think the biggest is ten by 30. And we even have some the third facility has a boat and RV storage outside.
00;48;48;26 - 00;48;51;28
Max Grover
So that's got to be on fire.
00;48;52;00 - 00;49;09;15
John Francis
That's that facility is just opening. So yeah, it's it in I think right right now a lot of people are using their their stuff but my facility in Allendale, I have only two vacancies in my entire and so maybe you should be. So why aren't you raising your edge? And so.
00;49;09;21 - 00;49;10;12
Chris Prins
Yeah.
00;49;10;14 - 00;49;19;07
John Francis
So yeah, all the boats and RV spots are except for two are, are full so it's still there. But that's that certain selective areas.
00;49;19;11 - 00;49;35;29
Max Grover
How how intimidating is that like where you're talking about like hey you know I've done office and I've done some industrial and some of that new product type that you're need to relearn everything. How intimidating is that? How intimidating as I've been for you.
00;49;36;01 - 00;49;53;18
John Francis
You know? Well, I don't know what else it is. Is it short term rentals? But I you know, I'm hearing through the tele some of these governments are starting to push back and and tighten up on those things. And I don't know what the next thing is. Maybe we cycle back to office, which is which should be could be crazy.
00;49;53;18 - 00;50;14;12
John Francis
I walk through with Chris's got a listing over there we'll walk through one of his leasing so but maybe I cycle back to that. I mean, I could go into multifamily, but that's, that's a whole different that's a different machine. It is and a different and I don't want to do that too, in my investors because I mean, why would it.
00;50;14;12 - 00;50;23;24
John Francis
And that's another thing. It's like these are my investors. They're they're not only my friends, but I don't want to lose their money. I want to look them in the eye and say, I just lost you hundred thousand dollars.
00;50;23;26 - 00;50;38;10
Chris Prins
So you probably had some ideas because you mentioned you obviously starting office industrial and then storage and you had to go push you for storage. Have you had to tell people like, No, I'm not doing this idea? Like, you know, hey, yeah.
00;50;38;10 - 00;50;39;23
John Francis
Or different investments?
00;50;39;23 - 00;50;41;04
Chris Prins
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00;50;41;04 - 00;50;49;02
John Francis
But I, I, I stay in the narrow lane. I like to think again. Maybe I'm too conservative, but.
00;50;49;04 - 00;51;09;03
Max Grover
Well, and in and I mean, being even calling yourself conservative, it's like it's so tough right now to make any deal pencil that it's like I, I mean, I'm sure you're just kind of sitting on the sidelines a little bit on some of these deals where you're like, nope, past no pass. I love to look at it doesn't work.
00;51;09;06 - 00;51;21;11
John Francis
My goal is I would love to be able to buy one, two, two, two, three buildings a year. And I haven't bought one this year and it's driving me crazy. That's just not because I need to grow. I want to grow. Yeah, so but.
00;51;21;14 - 00;51;31;01
Chris Prins
But it's also being specialized and knowing what you want to pursue. I think we've talked about that other podcasts, you can spread yourself so thin and you don't become a specialist in any area.
00;51;31;03 - 00;51;31;23
John Francis
Correct?
00;51;31;26 - 00;51;47;27
Max Grover
Yeah, I'll look at, you know, some of the numbers on the buildings that are out there too. And I just look at it. I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, this doesn't work. I want it to work. I want to make it work. And you start feeling like, am I just being like a no person or does this not work?
00;51;47;27 - 00;52;00;08
Max Grover
And it's like, pass and then somebody else does it. And you're like, I wonder if they know something. I don't know. Or you got to like, you ask yourself, you know, I wonder if they know something that I don't. I get that a lot.
00;52;00;08 - 00;52;04;23
John Francis
It's like, am I doing something wrong? Am I in the right business? I question myself. I.
00;52;04;26 - 00;52;10;05
Max Grover
I get to did I take my cowboy hat off too much? Ah, yeah, exactly.
00;52;10;05 - 00;52;36;11
John Francis
And yeah, I have a partner that I do a lot of deals with and he's probably internally frustrated with. He'll go, you know, and I have another group of people where I t things have been done, I call them the next day and said it's not going to work and, but I'd rather say that more times than not because I just go into every deal that it only takes one project to take a career down.
00;52;36;15 - 00;52;53;13
John Francis
Seen that in in my 29 years. And I also go in when I'm at a closing and if I don't have butterflies that I'm nervous. You know, I need to check myself, it's like, am I getting too cocky? And if I overlook something and, and so that's my little test for myself.
00;52;53;13 - 00;53;12;04
Max Grover
And, and it's right. Originally I think you made the joke about like, like I don't have any money to sign on this. PG Anyways, like you say, yeah, that's changed too. So then it's like, I mean that Oh yeah. When you sign your name on that document and you know, if it's a, if it's a you know the they're coming, they're going to.
00;53;12;06 - 00;53;32;25
John Francis
It's, I try not to think about that. Yeah. I mean mean if, if I really add up billions of dollars I Oh if it literally could paralyze you but it yeah I had an investment with some doctors and it took them a while to they kept on trying to focus on, okay, I'm a 10% partner, I'm a 20% partner.
00;53;32;26 - 00;53;59;19
John Francis
We have X amount of debt, so that means I owe this. Well, it's almost if they're coming to it with a mindset of this building could be zero. Well, even in post 2000, I mean, buildings weren't worth zero. There's always it doesn't do that. And so if anything, you and if you buy buy it right. You know, the the fire sale price is going to equal your debt if you're lucky.
00;53;59;26 - 00;54;13;24
Max Grover
Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, you're putting 20% down, right? Theoretically you make more. Yeah. And so if there's a 20% correction in the market, you still shouldn't be upside down. Possibly.
00;54;13;24 - 00;54;18;05
John Francis
Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember 28?
00;54;18;09 - 00;54;20;02
Max Grover
No, I was in high school.
00;54;20;02 - 00;54;46;08
John Francis
I mean that's, that was, that was even people like my dad, you know, I have never seen an environment that was that bad. It was banks owned all the real estate, They owned it all. And so to this day, but you have a lot of people that have gotten smarter because they've lived through it. You know, these these these banks, the there's bankers still around that have that skill set and they remember that and the attorneys and everybody else.
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00;55;16;13 - 00;55;41;29
Max Grover
And so that sorry Chris is that going into the fact factor like you know everyone's talking recession recession recession going to see and specifically here for commercial real estate with a lot of these loans coming off and stuff like that in the next two, three, five years. Is that something that you think we haven't gotten out ahead of our skis or do you think it's a looming issue for the commercial market?
00;55;42;01 - 00;56;22;19
John Francis
Oh, that's a great question. And that was I had thought about that in regards to one of your future crash questions, Chris, about like what was what was yeah. Go. That was predictions. And I didn't really want to get into the prediction game because it's there are so many variables that happen. But the two two things that I thought about from a prediction standpoint is it's not initially a prediction, but it's what you should watch out for is one is as loans start rolling and maturing, that is, and if your lender decides to refinance with you, what are you going to refinance?
00;56;22;20 - 00;56;30;27
John Francis
Are you going to go from three and seven quarter three and seven, 3.75 to 6 two, six and a half or.
00;56;31;00 - 00;56;31;06
Max Grover
Going to.
00;56;31;07 - 00;56;37;02
John Francis
And you know, what are your what are your cash flows at that time And can you can you survive that?
00;56;37;05 - 00;56;41;09
Max Grover
Does it cover the the debt service coverage ratio for the bank at that point or not.
00;56;41;11 - 00;57;07;27
John Francis
Or does the bank decide to not you know they don't have to lend you that money again once it lets up loans so that's that bears watching and then also just employment we the number one thing at least in my opinion is it's it's jobs it's people working retail people having jobs give people to be able to buy retail.
00;57;08;01 - 00;57;08;22
Max Grover
Consumption.
00;57;08;26 - 00;57;33;01
John Francis
Job jobs where people are sitting in office buildings or if they even said enough is billions these days and people in manufacturing plants. And so if you start seeing a bunch of layoffs happening and I still think we're pretty strong and in we're West Michigan, we're conservative area, so we don't get those highs and lows that maybe the coast do or the right places.
00;57;33;01 - 00;57;44;22
John Francis
So I think we that that we're insulated and not that we're initially smarter than everybody else. But I think we're I'm cautiously cautiously optimistic about where we are and what we have going.
00;57;44;27 - 00;57;55;10
Chris Prins
Do you still see some of those like COVID relief funds out there or kind of just sitting on the sidelines? Because I still feel like I talked to some people who say I'm just waiting for stuff to fall apart.
00;57;55;13 - 00;58;06;21
John Francis
I know I don't personally, I think the governor like the different like cities and counties have a bunch of money, but they haven't spent it yet. They do.
00;58;06;22 - 00;58;09;17
Max Grover
It's going to take a few. It's going to take years to spend through that.
00;58;09;20 - 00;58;16;03
John Francis
So that's yeah. So then then that what you know, how does that affect inflation or or whatnot?
00;58;16;05 - 00;58;22;07
Max Grover
Theoretically, it goes down by spending more money, Right. That's what tell, that's what they told us. John. Yeah.
00;58;22;08 - 00;58;24;15
Chris Prins
It's COMEX. Yeah.
00;58;24;18 - 00;58;26;13
John Francis
It's, it's supply chain. Yeah.
00;58;26;15 - 00;58;36;18
Max Grover
It's, yeah. The, I can't even remember what, what was that bill called. The, the Inflation Reduction Act. Yeah. And then it was just spending more money and you're like Huh.
00;58;36;20 - 00;58;39;04
John Francis
Yeah. Can you say gaslighting.
00;58;39;09 - 00;58;43;24
Max Grover
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was wild.
00;58;43;24 - 00;58;50;25
Chris Prins
Yeah. So what about you mentioned earlier office kind of excites you. Now, what about the office market is kind of pulling you back.
00;58;50;25 - 00;58;54;17
John Francis
Yeah, I. I wouldn't say it excites me. Are you just catching us?
00;58;54;23 - 00;58;57;26
Max Grover
Like, I keep hearing the analogy. You're trying to catch a falling knife, but.
00;58;57;29 - 00;59;11;00
John Francis
I think my. My point was, like you were asking, well, what's next? Well, maybe I come full circle and go back to office, but I haven't seen anything yet. And, you know.
00;59;11;02 - 00;59;30;03
Max Grover
It might need to be reinvented to where it's like I mean, you talk about like Chris does a lot of retail and it's like that looks completely different than it did 30 years ago for like malls and stuff like that where it's not just big box driven, it's entertainment driven, surrounded by, you know, that energy that which then pushes the retail, too.
00;59;30;03 - 00;59;48;10
Max Grover
So it's like maybe there is some sort of maybe it pushes more into that mixed use type stuff, like what they're trying to do with like factory yard and that type of thing where it's all intertwined in together. But even Studio Park I think is a cool concept for that too. And that's, that's for Yeah.
00;59;48;13 - 00;59;53;05
John Francis
Yeah. Let's hope our city fathers in Grand Rapids can keep us safe downtown.
00;59;53;07 - 01;00;10;15
Max Grover
Yeah, that. That's a serious I mean, that's, that's a serious issue and that I read that oh, I shouldn't say this because I, I think I just read the headline, but that the Grand Rapids population just went down for the first time in the last like 15, 20 years. The city.
01;00;10;18 - 01;00;11;00
Chris Prins
It doesn't.
01;00;11;00 - 01;00;11;22
John Francis
Surprise me.
01;00;11;25 - 01;00;19;20
Max Grover
And and I think it's a lot to do with that. I mean, there's there are saved you can see seen it in the newspapers.
01;00;19;22 - 01;00;19;29
Chris Prins
It's.
01;00;20;03 - 01;00;20;15
Max Grover
People.
01;00;20;21 - 01;00;25;05
Chris Prins
It's rare that there's not a weekend when you see a news article saying there was a shooting in downtown.
01;00;25;07 - 01;00;44;04
Max Grover
Or just Monroe or just like go down Monroe Center and the issues that some of those business owners have faced on that street with, you know, panhandling and people sleeping on the on the streets. And I think there was I think there was somebody like having sex like midday on one of the tables and one of the news articles I read.
01;00;44;04 - 01;00;53;28
Max Grover
And that's right across from police station. Yeah, that's bad job. Yeah. Let's try to try to be polite. I'm pulling.
01;00;54;05 - 01;00;55;08
Chris Prins
I want to do that to my wife.
01;00;55;08 - 01;00;57;10
Max Grover
I think that's fair. That's fair.
01;00;57;10 - 01;01;00;09
John Francis
But I guess my point I'll make or what I need.
01;01;00;11 - 01;01;00;16
Max Grover
To.
01;01;00;19 - 01;01;05;08
John Francis
Bring is West Michigan needs a healthy downtown.
01;01;05;12 - 01;01;05;25
Max Grover
It does.
01;01;06;01 - 01;01;20;24
John Francis
Any community needs to healthy downtown to be successful. If you if you have all your money in the suburbs, you still need a healthy downtown. You need a vibrant downtown. And pre-COVID downtown was awesome.
01;01;20;26 - 01;01;37;05
Max Grover
We had I mean, there's still cool things happening to and we're headed overall, I think, in the right direction. But it's like getting into that detail thing of like, are we gonna take that next step and are we going to continue to keep that energy driving downtown or is it going to push back out to the suburbs?
01;01;37;07 - 01;02;03;01
John Francis
Yeah, Yeah, I do not. I think we have too much money invested in downtown and, and we are social animals and meaning we need congregation and we need to be together and, and we need the next ArtPrize or the soccer stadium. They talk about or the Ampitheater. Yeah. This or that. But they also need to somehow address I mean there's a humanity aspect, of course, there.
01;02;03;02 - 01;02;09;27
John Francis
These are real people that, that are being complained about. But there's got to be a better solution than.
01;02;09;27 - 01;02;11;10
Max Grover
Than I agree that.
01;02;11;15 - 01;02;12;10
Chris Prins
The more we do it.
01;02;12;11 - 01;02;36;07
Max Grover
Now. Yeah it's it's not a good condition for anybody. I'm not I'm not belittling people by any means, but it's like it's an issue because it it does I mean when you're walking down there with little kids like I have, it is uneasy when you're walking by certain sites and and issues and that type of thing. And that's across it feels like across the country everyone's having similar type issues.
01;02;36;07 - 01;02;46;06
John Francis
So we don't need another San Francisco or L.A. where they have. What was Jewel's and beautiful places. You know, people don't want anything to do with us.
01;02;46;14 - 01;03;13;20
Max Grover
I can't imagine. I don't think we're no, I don't think we're there. But you correct. We don't want to go that direction. It's a crossroads. In what direction are you going to go? Mm, Yeah, Downtown. Downtown. I'm trying to think that we're going to the Thomas Rhett concert on Saturday. I'm turning 35. I'm an old man. Oh, man.
01;03;13;22 - 01;03;23;20
Max Grover
So first, I don't even know a song that Thomas Rhett sings. And I'm not drinking right now. Oh, man. I'm like, But it'll be a ton of fun, honey.
01;03;23;22 - 01;03;24;23
John Francis
Is that here? Yeah.
01;03;24;26 - 01;03;25;03
Max Grover
Huh?
01;03;25;05 - 01;03;25;26
John Francis
Go to the arena.
01;03;26;02 - 01;03;30;21
Max Grover
Yeah. Yeah, It'll be good. Snoop Dogg was just in town there.
01;03;30;24 - 01;03;32;09
John Francis
That's. No, but I was there.
01;03;32;13 - 01;03;35;28
Max Grover
John was backstage by now.
01;03;35;28 - 01;03;39;22
John Francis
You're getting more of my. My age at that point when you're talking about that.
01;03;39;24 - 01;03;52;02
Max Grover
Yeah, I do think it continues to push into downtown. Are you seeing things push back out to suburbs right now, or is it just kind of stagnant almost?
01;03;52;05 - 01;04;19;05
John Francis
You know, I've had very small instances where I know that people have that have lived in apartments downtown and that they have left because of safety factors. I know those people, you know. I know businesses that have said we're done. I actually even I moved my accountant from downtown to the to the suburbs you know, he he didn't he didn't want to deal with that anymore.
01;04;19;05 - 01;04;31;24
John Francis
And we all know several businesses that have that have done that. I'm actually representing a client now that wants to be downtown. So it's it's like that's like really? Are you sure? Yeah. I said, yep, I want to be downtown.
01;04;32;00 - 01;04;52;24
Max Grover
So all the and, and like we've talked to like Jason was on and obviously I mean we talked to other brokers and stuff and no one's giving up their spaces downtown yet either. Now for the most part they're keeping the parking spaces like, I mean it's, it's not like it's a lost disaster, but it's something to track and keep our eye on for sure.
01;04;52;24 - 01;04;53;05
Max Grover
Yep.
01;04;53;05 - 01;04;54;05
John Francis
100%.
01;04;54;08 - 01;04;56;04
Chris Prins
Mm hmm.
01;04;56;06 - 01;05;03;04
Max Grover
What about we can I mean, you got 17,000 kids, right? How many kids.
01;05;03;06 - 01;05;04;01
John Francis
Killing? Six.
01;05;04;04 - 01;05;08;05
Max Grover
Do you want to talk about family or know the kids and what they're up to?
01;05;08;08 - 01;05;17;07
John Francis
Kid, I got one. One that's getting married next August. Congrats. So I've been saving my pennies. I actually.
01;05;17;09 - 01;05;19;14
Max Grover
Is she coming back to town or is she?
01;05;19;16 - 01;05;44;19
John Francis
She's currently in Phenix right now with her fiancee. Oh, cool. And they're getting married out in Boston area. Okay, So that's a lovely setting for that. I have another daughter that she she works in here in town. She's she's done with school and then two sons. One is the engineer at University of Michigan. He's working. He's got an internship with Gentex.
01;05;44;21 - 01;06;10;22
John Francis
He's going to do just fine. And then my other son, Adam, he's going to the University of San Diego, wonderful place to visit. And he's studying real estate of all things. And then really impressed with the curriculum. Like I've asked for him to send me several is syllabus is and he's and I've been like you're studying this this is he's he's he's starting at a much better level than I did Is.
01;06;10;22 - 01;06;12;23
Chris Prins
It mostly residential based or commercial.
01;06;12;23 - 01;06;15;15
John Francis
Or commercial commercial, commercial. So he.
01;06;15;17 - 01;06;19;27
Max Grover
Just underwriting properties and getting into that or.
01;06;20;00 - 01;06;43;24
John Francis
So Yeah, I think they have. So this will be a senior year. So he'll more of those intensive classes. He's already had two he's on his second real estate internship now. He was dealing with a large scale home flipper in the San Diego area. So buy a house cheap, fix it up, you know, do the budget, convince people to sell, sell it.
01;06;43;26 - 01;06;47;06
John Francis
So he did that. Now he's working for a reed of our place.
01;06;47;06 - 01;06;50;21
Max Grover
His name's not Nick. Is it that he works for Nick?
01;06;50;21 - 01;06;51;28
John Francis
No, I don't.
01;06;52;01 - 01;07;03;10
Max Grover
Know. I can't remember the name of this group, but Shawn worked in San Diego and same type of thing. He's working for a big company like that. Flipping homes and an apartment complex is mostly that type of thing.
01;07;03;11 - 01;07;05;09
John Francis
So he's so.
01;07;05;11 - 01;07;07;00
Max Grover
Not your son's not Nick the.
01;07;07;03 - 01;07;09;00
John Francis
Yeah. No, no. Yeah.
01;07;09;03 - 01;07;10;10
Max Grover
Sorry.
01;07;10;12 - 01;07;15;16
Chris Prins
So does he think he's going to stay out there and continue to work for the right that. No way or come back home.
01;07;15;17 - 01;07;26;27
John Francis
Well, I would fully expect him to. Well, first of all, with the thing they tell you and their family Business Council is it's if you're going to join a family business, you need to have outside experience.
01;07;26;29 - 01;07;30;20
Max Grover
I don't even know what the Family Business Council is. I haven't been invited. Yeah.
01;07;30;23 - 01;07;35;14
John Francis
Is that is that what their family and business and multiple are a generation or is.
01;07;35;14 - 01;07;37;26
Chris Prins
That true Gray families who I have.
01;07;37;26 - 01;07;49;29
John Francis
A I think at one point it was Grand Valley. It was a part of it. At one point. But I think it's it's own freestanding body and with its own board, its own executive.
01;07;49;29 - 01;07;56;01
Max Grover
Drive, it's like a nonprofit type thing that's just literally coaching families in a transition.
01;07;56;01 - 01;08;30;09
John Francis
And family businesses are extremely unique in how they operate. I mean, they are not your what when I say normal, not that they're abnormal, but you have a whole bunch of different dynamics involved with that. When you're when you're talking about siblings, you know that are part of the business, siblings that aren't part of the business. And how are you fair You're dealing with situations where you employ a lot of people and is Little Bobby the right person to be the next president of this company?
01;08;30;11 - 01;08;59;06
John Francis
Because you you you know, this company is responsible for a lot of families. So I'm involved with that. I love that organization. And and so I've been learning through that process. So to answer your question about Adam, he may come back, but just like my dad, my dad never forced me into this business. He he encouraged me. I always left the door open in a sense, but he allowed me to chart my own course and share.
01;08;59;07 - 01;09;18;18
John Francis
And I'm trying to do that. The same thing with Adam. I would love for him. I'm I'm huge West Michigan guy. I get thrilled when I hear stories of people that like, why did you move here? And or you know, you came from where And you know, I think that's great. I mean, I love this community. I want to see it grow.
01;09;18;21 - 01;09;24;11
John Francis
And I would love for him to eventually come back after, you know, position somewhere else.
01;09;24;13 - 01;09;40;28
Max Grover
It's awesome. And and as far as Francis reality and then you work out, you guys share office space with Prime is that what it is because I had the actually just today there's a new agent at Prime that just reached out to me to grab coffee.
01;09;40;28 - 01;09;45;19
John Francis
Oh Adam Yeah. I've been encouraging, like I've been telling Adam, I say, You got a network. Network, network I.
01;09;45;19 - 01;09;58;28
Max Grover
Saw he, like, added, I hardly check LinkedIn. I don't really use that. I probably should, but he look at me and I'm like, Figure this guy looks like he's 12. Just like, hey, I think this is be somebody that actually looks younger than me.
01;09;58;28 - 01;10;04;01
John Francis
Yeah, he's he's he's pretty young. He just graduated from Grand Valley State.
01;10;04;01 - 01;10;10;16
Max Grover
So and so he's going to start co-chairing off like he's around. He gets to ask John Francis questions.
01;10;10;16 - 01;10;35;00
John Francis
Even he works a lot. He's principally works with Marcel. Who is that Prime. But I've historically have mentored a lot of different people over times. And even with I just had lunch with him actually yesterday and I said look, I have an open door. You can just please come in and and, you know, I love teaching or, you know, whatever I have to teach if you think it's valuable or not.
01;10;35;00 - 01;10;52;21
John Francis
But I love sharing, sharing the stories and the antidotes, because that's one thing that's neat about this. If you're not continuing to learn, you're you're you're in trouble. I mean, this is a business with so many facets and so many aspects. It's I.
01;10;52;21 - 01;10;53;24
Max Grover
Mean, it's every.
01;10;53;29 - 01;10;55;15
John Francis
I mean, every deal is different.
01;10;55;15 - 01;11;24;22
Max Grover
My mind just goes even to the self-storage up on four mile that I got to. John manages the buildings in the back. Wow. And we had to get that the property the self-storage property owns the land. But back in the day they had given an easement, an exclusive easement exclusive. The key word of that, which means that the guys, the condo owners in the back essentially don't pay tax on the land, but then they own.
01;11;24;29 - 01;11;30;06
Max Grover
And so then we had to get a curb cut from the condo association.
01;11;30;09 - 01;11;32;10
John Francis
And I mean, we could have you guys.
01;11;32;10 - 01;11;41;23
Max Grover
Could they could have and we had to pay. But think, thank God this is West Michigan. And I think, thank God, John, probably I.
01;11;41;25 - 01;11;43;15
John Francis
I think there is a lot of West Michigan.
01;11;43;15 - 01;11;57;21
Max Grover
And I'm going to say John probably gave us like a hey, like, let's not crush these guys, but we did have to pay and they had real costs and that drive, too. So, yeah I understand both sides of that. But we really could have been in a I.
01;11;57;21 - 01;12;00;14
John Francis
Had a certain board member that really I.
01;12;00;16 - 01;12;09;00
Max Grover
Mean, I saw I ran into him showing his back space to a lease tenant and he's like, You're Max, we're over it. I'm like.
01;12;09;02 - 01;12;15;00
John Francis
Maybe I say, it wasn't him, but yeah, you've met the other one.
01;12;15;03 - 01;12;24;10
Max Grover
Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, You guys really could have an input that goes back to that West Michigan thing where it's like, Okay, let's be fair about this and not completely, but.
01;12;24;10 - 01;12;34;12
Chris Prins
Talking about like just West Michigan, everyone kind of helping each other once, like by car West Michigan board kind of meant for you or industry or just more of the association.
01;12;34;14 - 01;13;00;15
John Francis
So I go way back we so car was originally a subcommittee out of the Grand Rapids Association realtors so we met in a room probably once a month or every two weeks and we were just a committee. The entire commercial body was just a committee and that we had an administrator for that that I think I don't even think we so we were actually members of Gras at the time.
01;13;00;15 - 01;13;04;04
John Francis
So we were again, just a commercial committee.
01;13;04;06 - 01;13;07;00
Max Grover
It was Sherry then there, then at the time or I.
01;13;07;00 - 01;13;34;25
John Francis
Think she was there somewhere in the building, I think it was Julie Rehberg she had. She's still the executive director of GRAS and then Pam Day. And so probably three, four years into that, we then decided to create our own entity. We actually created a car commercial. Actually, it probably had a different name back then. I should know.
01;13;34;28 - 01;14;03;24
John Francis
That's a scary question. Yeah. Yeah. So we went from being a committee under a Graham Association Realtors to being our own association. But at the time we still were we, we hired our executive director from Grier and then we cut the cord from that and then we, we became our full blown independent organization. And that's where we're Sherri started.
01;14;03;24 - 01;14;06;21
John Francis
And it wasn't easy. We we.
01;14;06;21 - 01;14;09;10
Max Grover
Were you on the board at that time or just.
01;14;09;11 - 01;14;29;08
John Francis
Not I was on one of their I've been on the board committee three different times. So this is the board I'm on right now is my third, third board. I'm trying to think who almost my first. I think my first three terms was Kagan was there, Ray Kaiser and Bill BOLLING. So I think it was Bill Boeing and then Kaiser was after Kagan.
01;14;29;08 - 01;14;30;18
John Francis
I think something like that. I just.
01;14;30;19 - 01;14;31;17
Chris Prins
Okay.
01;14;31;19 - 01;14;37;25
John Francis
Kagan Two or three, our board meeting. So I'm really glad that on this list anymore.
01;14;37;28 - 01;14;40;21
Max Grover
I get dragged on for going like it's our job.
01;14;40;26 - 01;14;41;14
Chris Prins
To bring in some.
01;14;41;19 - 01;14;43;22
Max Grover
Minutes and I just get Reagan.
01;14;43;24 - 01;15;10;01
John Francis
So they go back. What you're saying about Carr, I mean, we're we're unique association. A lot of people don't realize I think we're one of ten commercial mls in the entire nation. And what that really means is, is when we take a listing, we're agreeing to share our commission with another with another broker. And so what that means is we are client centric in that regards.
01;15;10;04 - 01;15;28;19
John Francis
We are not the first thing that we don't have to ask when we're trying to find another property is like before you, how am I going to get paid? You got am I going to get paid for my client? Am I going to get paid from the seller though? Sure. And you have to waste time on that. So that's one of the benefits.
01;15;28;19 - 01;16;01;05
John Francis
The the other benefits is, is networking, education. We're also we are realtors. So a lot of people also the Joe Q Public doesn't realize as a realtor that's a trademark term. Just because you have a real estate sales license doesn't mean you're a realtor. And that means we prescribed a code of conduct. And so that's an extra layer of discipline that the average real estate practitioner doesn't necessarily have.
01;16;01;05 - 01;16;12;27
John Francis
So when you're when you're doing any kind of real estate transaction, especially a commercial, you need to do it in West Michigan with a with a car broker for for just some of those benefits.
01;16;13;01 - 01;16;36;06
Max Grover
And it's it's been if you do any transactions outside Grand Rapids and Chris probably does more than either of us outside of West Michigan. But it's it is a completely different ballgame. It is commission first, client second and cutthroat as far as that goes. And it's like so yeah, it's different.
01;16;36;09 - 01;16;53;05
Chris Prins
I would say dealings, even brokers over in Detroit who come over here to do tenant representation, it's always by their commission agreement signed by the landlord, like, no, we're good. We're we're just like and they're like, I need this signed. It's getting them to understand, No, we're going to get you paid. Don't worry about it. I have a separate lease.
01;16;53;05 - 01;16;55;19
Chris Prins
I'm listing agreement with the landlord. You're covered.
01;16;55;20 - 01;16;56;08
Max Grover
Yeah.
01;16;56;10 - 01;17;01;20
Chris Prins
And there are times. You just have to almost, like, show it to them and say, okay, here you go. You're in the clear, huh?
01;17;01;20 - 01;17;02;25
John Francis
It might blow blow there.
01;17;02;27 - 01;17;11;29
Chris Prins
Oh, totally does. And they're like, you guys have a total you guys have an entire association that works like this, like they just can't comprehend it. And that's what, 3 hours to the east of us.
01;17;12;02 - 01;17;27;20
Max Grover
And it's such a bizarre it's a such a bizarre business in the fact that like, yeah, we're all competition, but it's got to be one of the few industries where you have to constantly and consistently work with your competition, get a deal done DO Yeah.
01;17;27;21 - 01;17;47;25
John Francis
Oh yeah. I mean we're, we're, we're there for our clients and but it's, it's, it's also we're trying to get the best deal and but I think we're being efficient in the process or some of us hopefully are putting our egos aside a little bit and just getting the deal done, figuring it out for our clients. Because some of these transactions can be pretty complicated.
01;17;47;27 - 01;18;16;08
Max Grover
Yeah, and I think we're yeah, I think we're like, there's a difference. We just have the demographics from car. Thanks to Chris help put those together with Sherry But at the last board meeting and it's like we are kind of at like this inflection point of like making sure that the future stays that way and it doesn't go the way of bigger markets or I don't want to just Reagan, Detroit, but bigger cities in general.
01;18;16;10 - 01;18;19;06
Max Grover
And I think that's going to be a constant fight moving forward.
01;18;19;06 - 01;18;37;21
John Francis
To over the over the years, as I've been on the board and being a part of the association, I you come across people that are brokers that are doing business here now. They come from Chicago, they come from other communities and and they don't appreciate as much as what we got. And then they either, you know, there's something wrong with criticism.
01;18;37;21 - 01;18;53;29
John Francis
I mean, everybody should have some rightful criticism. That's how you ultimately grow. But they're almost trying to tear down or or change the system. But, you know, it's one of the things, if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of thing. And we're far from broke.
01;18;54;01 - 01;18;55;18
Chris Prins
Yeah Yeah.
01;18;55;21 - 01;19;00;16
Max Grover
Yeah. What about I'm going to try one more time. What about the political Affairs Committee, John?
01;19;00;19 - 01;19;01;08
John Francis
Oh, sorry.
01;19;01;08 - 01;19;02;12
Max Grover
To talk about this at all.
01;19;02;17 - 01;19;09;09
John Francis
So that's so that's one of the committees that I've been on my entire career. So I've chair that committee.
01;19;09;15 - 01;19;18;17
Max Grover
John chairs the committee without him being the chair essentially. So I in a good way though, like you're on top of it and you're involved and it's important to you.
01;19;18;20 - 01;19;45;17
John Francis
Government affects all aspects of your life if you like it or not. And If you ignore government, that's to your detriment. And so part of my job is to educate the members of what's going on in this community is how it affects them. Part of our job as government affairs is having conversation with city commissioners, county commissioners, employees of the city.
01;19;45;20 - 01;20;06;08
John Francis
You know, that's one of the big things that we've dealt with many, many years ago. It's a long pass issue was the point of sale for sidewalks in Grand Rapids. So, you know, they did initially and in the name of safety. So meaning like before a property had to get sold, it had to be inspected and now I don't.
01;20;06;08 - 01;20;10;19
John Francis
And if it turned out if there's cracks or problems with it, it had to be replaced.
01;20;10;19 - 01;20;12;15
Max Grover
Well, I went there.
01;20;12;20 - 01;20;15;24
John Francis
Okay. So you had a you had a shovel.
01;20;15;26 - 01;20;20;01
Max Grover
They got rid of that. It was like 2000 to 10.
01;20;20;02 - 01;20;21;02
John Francis
12 and they got rid of.
01;20;21;02 - 01;20;22;07
Max Grover
It or. Yeah, when I got in.
01;20;22;07 - 01;20;44;25
John Francis
Oh, they've had it for a while. But I mean it didn't make, they did it in the name of safety. So let's say you have a 100 yard block of and so one house sells in this 1000 yard, ten houses and so every other house had a bad sidewalk and you, the one that happened to be selling had to fix your sidewalk.
01;20;44;25 - 01;21;08;09
John Francis
So let's so we we do hopscotch over the bad payments. So there wasn't a way to do it it wasn't to put it on the the homeowners or the realtors back so city changed that and but partly because of influence from realtors in in in our feedback. So I would say that was a success story we had.
01;21;08;11 - 01;21;17;29
Max Grover
And all the way on to like on a bigger scale for federal all the way up to like 1031 in that big battle that they had for that over the last two, three years to that as we.
01;21;17;29 - 01;21;35;02
John Francis
Are trying to maintain the 1030 exchange. And and that's just not for brokers. That's for small business owners, farmers. You know it's it's the government doesn't need one more tax they just don't they they can't even, you know, efficiently utilize the dollars they have already.
01;21;35;04 - 01;21;55;21
Max Grover
Well even before the podcast, like we were even talking about sidewalks to know where that tends to happen with new developments, often it's like, what's the solution to that? And and I have or I can't remember which municipality is, but they've switched to where, hey, like if it doesn't make sense today, it's just going to go into a giant pot for sidewalks.
01;21;55;23 - 01;22;00;23
Max Grover
They're going to create the sidewalks where they need to be, or when the time is right, they'll come back and put them in.
01;22;01;00 - 01;22;01;28
John Francis
That makes sense as.
01;22;01;28 - 01;22;23;29
Max Grover
Opposed to right now, like you might have 300 feet of frontage and none of your neighbors for the next quarter, mile, half mile, have a sidewalk in place, but you still get to build yours. And then so your grass, grass, grass, grass, sidewalk in front of the new property and then to nowhere. And it's just it's a really bizarre thing that, I mean, essentially maybe one day they'll all be connected.
01;22;23;29 - 01;22;29;06
John Francis
But typical government thinking.
01;22;29;08 - 01;22;34;28
Max Grover
John's a big government guy. That's what I'm trying to lean into and he's avoiding.
01;22;35;00 - 01;22;36;25
John Francis
You try to disperse some controversy.
01;22;36;25 - 01;22;39;20
Max Grover
Trying I'm trying really hard.
01;22;39;22 - 01;23;08;11
John Francis
But the other well, the other big thing we've been dealing with is this farmland preservation. That's that's the concept behind that is to pay a farmer basically the difference of his development rights. And so once you pay that, that farmer lets the value of the development, the farmer can still farm or they can choose to not farm, but forever and ever perpetuity.
01;23;08;11 - 01;23;33;05
John Francis
I mean, the only thing I know about perpetuity is is, is God. Yeah. And to be able to set aside, nobody's got that foresight. And you start doing that, you're going to, you're going to create some major problems about future growth and nobody just has that crystal ball. So to have a program where you and they said, well, we can one minded, no, it's not that easy.
01;23;33;05 - 01;23;39;28
Max Grover
There's so, so why would you even do it in the first place if the intention is to maybe one day? And why and it why would you even do it in the first place?
01;23;40;05 - 01;23;41;27
John Francis
Yes, exactly. So.
01;23;42;00 - 01;23;44;23
Max Grover
And and so you're talking it's a.
01;23;44;25 - 01;23;45;09
John Francis
I mean, it's.
01;23;45;16 - 01;23;58;22
Max Grover
PCR right. Is the term PDR, PDR, Thank you. And and the government goes in, they offer the farmers, they put a deed restriction on the property and say forever and ever and ever, this can never be developed.
01;23;58;24 - 01;23;59;11
John Francis
Correct.
01;23;59;11 - 01;24;05;02
Max Grover
And here's your check, but never will be anything but farmland.
01;24;05;04 - 01;24;29;23
John Francis
And on one level from it sounds rosy. It's like you're going to pursue preserve all this farming and and because farming is going away and and all this stuff but I have a lot I have some very close friends from that are farmers and farm centric. And you know, farming is only getting more efficient and smarter and and they can do a lot of things with one acre that they you know years ago they couldn't do that.
01;24;29;23 - 01;24;37;03
Max Grover
So yeah and who's to say that it's all done in fields and 20 years and not in old office buildings.
01;24;37;05 - 01;24;46;19
John Francis
Yeah well where they talking about turning Detroit into a farm, like an elevated farm and things like that. So kind of like that idea.
01;24;46;21 - 01;24;50;18
Chris Prins
Some of the old guys on the outskirts is there now. Yeah.
01;24;50;21 - 01;25;07;14
Max Grover
And it's, it's super important and it's, it's always terrifying to me where it's like, what, seven people, Nine people on a zoning board that even when you're coming in for a new development to do something, they're driving the decisions for your entire community.
01;25;07;15 - 01;25;07;22
Chris Prins
Yeah.
01;25;07;27 - 01;25;17;00
Max Grover
And they're not they're not elected officials even they're they're appointed officials by an elected official. I believe they get appointed by the mayor. Or maybe.
01;25;17;00 - 01;25;18;05
John Francis
It depends on.
01;25;18;07 - 01;25;35;27
Max Grover
The municipality, but sure. But they're they're making huge decisions for communities that most people never even know happen. And that's a that's always wild to me, too, that that's the process is like, hey, bring this into seven people and let them vote on it.
01;25;36;01 - 01;25;52;21
John Francis
Yeah, well, right now I think Grand Rapids is in the early stages of the master redoing their master plan. Yeah, and there's a lot of voices in that. And fortunately, we have a voice in that. But is it chip? Chip chips? Chip Hurley, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01;25;52;23 - 01;25;52;29
Max Grover
Yeah.
01;25;52;29 - 01;25;54;24
John Francis
Chips, part chips are advocate on that.
01;25;54;24 - 01;25;56;20
Max Grover
And he'll be great. He'll be on top of that.
01;25;56;20 - 01;25;57;29
John Francis
So yes he will.
01;25;58;06 - 01;26;05;24
Max Grover
But that's Yeah. And that goes back to like before the vote when they're voting on it. It's already too late like you need to be.
01;26;05;24 - 01;26;06;08
John Francis
Yes.
01;26;06;09 - 01;26;07;12
Max Grover
And so then.
01;26;07;15 - 01;26;20;26
John Francis
Speaking. So what we're trying to do is we want to be that adviser to these these government people that are voting on this on various issues and educate. You know, essentially we're we're lobbyists if you church that.
01;26;20;28 - 01;26;22;14
Chris Prins
Don't get paid. Yeah.
01;26;22;16 - 01;26;36;08
Max Grover
Well, yeah. Wait a second. Yeah. Yeah. We need to rethink. But, like, even like you do here in Grand Rapids now, like, you hear it on the coast all the time, but rent control, like that conversation creeping in and things like that, that's the.
01;26;36;08 - 01;26;48;02
John Francis
Worst thing you could do to a community is rent control. And again, these these things sound great. Preserve farms, rent control, keep things affordable. But it doesn't work that way.
01;26;48;02 - 01;27;14;09
Max Grover
And I think it's something like. And Shawn sorry, Shawn, if I butchered this, but in San Diego, if you want to change the rents, the building has to be under a certain occupancy threshold threshold. So instead of just raising the rents like you would in Grand Rapids, they'll evict the entire building, do the turns, because once they get under that certain threshold of occupancy, then they can raise the rents.
01;27;14;12 - 01;27;30;02
Max Grover
So they'll just evict everybody instead of like, like giving you an option of like, hey, I'll raise your rent, you know, 250 bucks the next month or you can move. It's like, say good luck and how much does that cost a family to up move and try and find a new apartment?
01;27;30;05 - 01;27;45;10
John Francis
And that brings back one of my favorite phrases, the law of unintended consequences that so many times people don't realize when they're voting on a law, they're not thinking it through A to Z and all the dynamics that can result from that.
01;27;45;15 - 01;27;46;19
Chris Prins
Yeah.
01;27;46;22 - 01;27;53;12
Max Grover
Yeah. Well, one day you won't own anything and you'll be happier because of a job.
01;27;53;14 - 01;27;55;02
John Francis
And I'll be filling out of a strike.
01;27;55;05 - 01;28;04;09
Max Grover
Yeah, I'm just like in those what's a kids movie where they're like, just in the hover chairs with the computer screen in front of them and they're all super fast. We actually.
01;28;04;10 - 01;28;13;06
John Francis
Yeah, we, we, we actually had that conversation recently within our family. Yeah. So. Well, is it.
01;28;13;09 - 01;28;22;06
Max Grover
Yeah, that's probably me. I'm on my phone way too much. I'm and I'm fat, so I'm like, dude, I'm like two steps away like, give me the horror chair and I'm in.
01;28;22;08 - 01;28;25;03
John Francis
I need to run those treadmills. Yes. Yeah.
01;28;25;06 - 01;28;51;23
Max Grover
No, I'm no, I'm getting ripped right now. I'm like, 200. Yeah, I'm on week two. They're having me like, No, it's paleo, 200 milligrams, 200 milligrams, 200 grams of protein a day, which is like an ounce steak is like 28 or something like that. And super clean, no beer, no alcohol. So I'm getting ripped off like John Francis.
01;28;51;29 - 01;28;53;03
John Francis
Just say no alcohol.
01;28;53;04 - 01;29;01;17
Max Grover
No alcohol for 12 weeks. Wow. And okay, so last week, this is going to be I'm going to make myself sound.
01;29;01;20 - 01;29;03;27
John Francis
Chris is staring at you like.
01;29;03;29 - 01;29;05;28
Chris Prins
Why would you do that to yourself?
01;29;05;28 - 01;29;10;01
Max Grover
Because I got to get back to a good base and then I'll get fat again over the next ten years.
01;29;10;01 - 01;29;11;26
John Francis
Can you do everything but alcohol?
01;29;11;28 - 01;29;15;08
Max Grover
Yeah, exactly. I mean.
01;29;15;10 - 01;29;16;20
John Francis
Do you get rid of all that other stuff?
01;29;16;21 - 01;29;43;11
Max Grover
Yeah. No, that's probably fair. I would, Yeah, it'd probably be ideal, but so I'm going to embarrass myself. Really bad. But I like added up the beers that I would have had last week alone, just taking a whole week off. And it was a it was like a super meeting heavy week of like I met with some bankers and architect car board meeting, mid-year planning meeting, which was a real seafood like I would have drank there.
01;29;43;18 - 01;30;07;02
Max Grover
The golf outing swim me They served beer at the swim meets. It's amazing. So I'm embarrassed to say, but like I was like and I was probably being conservative, like kind of I cook out on Friday at a friend's house. I'm probably like looking at like 20 to 24 beers I would have had last week. And I drink applesauce, 24 baked potatoes that I didn't eat.
01;30;07;05 - 01;30;12;26
John Francis
But I was going to say, Max, is it really IPA or is it by bike? Come on.
01;30;12;28 - 01;30;14;11
Chris Prins
You can be honest.
01;30;14;13 - 01;30;25;13
Max Grover
Yeah I, I just sit on those just during the eyepiece and I sit on my butt like and keep it in my back pocket. Yeah. So I'm, yeah, I'm going to out.
01;30;25;16 - 01;30;28;02
John Francis
Stay tuned of.
01;30;28;05 - 01;30;32;23
Max Grover
Is there anything else on the, on because I feel bad you did a great job pairing.
01;30;32;24 - 01;30;34;16
Chris Prins
I think we chatted about most of this.
01;30;34;18 - 01;30;39;08
John Francis
Yeah. How how how long is something going to listen to us anyways. You know it it's terrifying.
01;30;39;08 - 01;31;09;14
Max Grover
But like people are listening to this and it's growing every time. And we've got the we've got the Instagram account. I'm like purposefully not like adding people, but I'm just seeing how it grassroots, if you will like grows and the the downloads I think we had our highest episode was like 500 some listens and then we had like 5000 1200 plays last week and in the last 60 days.
01;31;09;14 - 01;31;17;23
Max Grover
And I can't remember how many downloads. I said in my 60 to 50 plays or whatever, but it's growing.
01;31;17;24 - 01;31;18;03
Chris Prins
Yeah.
01;31;18;08 - 01;31;26;07
Max Grover
So ten years from now, this thing's going to be making probably like 100 bucks an episode. It's going to be great, but.
01;31;26;07 - 01;31;28;03
Chris Prins
We still need sponsors.
01;31;28;05 - 01;31;30;17
John Francis
Your money.
01;31;30;20 - 01;31;54;21
Max Grover
Exactly. Exactly. I one last question because I cut you off because I always do that. People I'm sorry. I was we were talking about the young guy and not just specifically to him in the office, but like advice to people getting in or guys that want to get in, even if it's from the investment side or however you want to answer that.
01;31;54;23 - 01;32;25;05
John Francis
I would seek out not just one, but multiple members or mentors. There are a lot of people that are happy to sit down and and share their their their trials, their successes, hopefully their failures if they're being honest. I when I started, I, I joined Boma Building Owners and Managers Association. I look back I mean, I started when I was 23 years old and I can't I mean, looking back, it felt was always by far the youngest guy.
01;32;25;05 - 01;32;45;23
John Francis
Now I know I go in these these these meetings and I'm like, who are these other people? But Boma and members, they allowed me to approach. A lot of people ask a lot of questions as situations to make, you know, because my dad was either not always there per say or maybe that he didn't know, but it gave me a different perspective.
01;32;45;23 - 01;33;17;06
John Francis
So if you're a younger person, seek out members, mentors and multiple mentors. Network and invest in yourself, but in your community. And I was just talking to Adam the young guy in the office is like when I back in the day we had the grown ups Jaycees. It was a phenomenal organization. I don't know if there's a similar like that in this community, but if not that there's plenty of charities.
01;33;17;08 - 01;33;50;09
John Francis
You need to invest in this community and and you have to think from a servant attitude first. The rest will flow from that. You'll you'll meet people. People see that you're genuine. Don't worry about the business aspect that will come in and in time in regards to investing yourself, investing yourself, seek, continue education, go after your C certified property manager designation, go after Kim, you're certified commercial investment member there.
01;33;50;12 - 01;34;18;16
John Francis
This industry is continually changing and evolving and the people in this industry are really smart and really good at what they do and they're competing against you. And if you're not on top of your game, you're going to get you're going to be in trouble. So you got to keep on investing yourself in the community outside education. So those are the things that I would I would definitely.
01;34;18;19 - 01;34;34;03
Max Grover
In in your going like mean when you're 23, you're still going up against you know, a Steve Kingman that's been doing it for how many years. Yeah. Or a John Kuyper at Duke so in or John Francis and you guys have seen you guys have been through the battles and been through the trenches.
01;34;34;03 - 01;34;54;10
John Francis
And and one final thought on that is is expect change embrace change because of change. It just it will if you think you're doing great one day and you rest on your you just there was someone will be eating your lunch before you know it.
01;34;54;12 - 01;35;04;14
Chris Prins
But I also liked how you talked about earlier. You seem to embrace early on your career the technology aspect and I think that's something that maybe some of the younger generations can grab on to because.
01;35;04;14 - 01;35;07;03
John Francis
They that's their advantage.
01;35;07;06 - 01;35;19;17
Chris Prins
Find your niche, find your advantage. You can overtake or help someone who can be like a mentor to you, someone who's in their sixties, seventies, who says, okay, I don't know technology as well. Can you be the young gun, the kind of person to do this?
01;35;19;17 - 01;35;27;26
John Francis
And they're not limited to West Michigan with with the technology now, they could sell property in Japan. I mean, it's crazy.
01;35;27;29 - 01;35;43;06
Max Grover
Yeah, I like. So find your mentors and multiple mentors. Lean in to them, learn from them, bring them, ask them questions, throw it off the wall, and then I'm sorry, I'm drawing a blank on what was the last part. Again, it.
01;35;43;06 - 01;35;44;16
John Francis
Will invest in your community.
01;35;44;18 - 01;35;45;07
Chris Prins
Involved.
01;35;45;11 - 01;35;53;27
John Francis
Get involved. You got to get involved in what I found in personally, in life in all aspects, is if you, for example.
01;35;53;27 - 01;35;54;10
Max Grover
Your.
01;35;54;10 - 01;36;12;13
John Francis
Church, if you're one of these guys that you can't, you go to the service and, then you leave and that's it. You're not going to get anything out of that. Well, you'll get something out of the service, but you truly aren't going to get the full aspect of getting into the committees and making that entity better.
01;36;12;15 - 01;36;15;27
Max Grover
You said something after that to the I'm sorry, maybe you don't remember either.
01;36;15;27 - 01;36;17;07
John Francis
Investing education for.
01;36;17;07 - 01;36;23;12
Max Grover
Yourself. No, no. After that, it was like towards the very end and I'll have to listen.
01;36;23;12 - 01;36;25;06
Chris Prins
I'm going to listen to myself.
01;36;25;08 - 01;36;32;28
Max Grover
I'm sorry. So I something there that I really like got that's asking. Now you listen to that just so good.
01;36;32;28 - 01;36;34;15
Chris Prins
I forgot I.
01;36;34;17 - 01;36;35;17
Max Grover
Got.
01;36;35;19 - 01;36;39;11
Chris Prins
See if you're if you're drinking a beer, you probably would remember if.
01;36;39;11 - 01;36;41;19
Max Grover
I was drunk, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
01;36;41;24 - 01;36;48;26
John Francis
Man, can you imagine the first drink when you're done with this thing, you're not going to know what hit you when you have that first drink.
01;36;48;26 - 01;37;00;04
Max Grover
Yeah, no kidding. And theoretically, I'll be skinny or too on top of that. So it'll be. Yeah, I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, it'll definitely be too hard to. That's my beer, unfortunately.
01;37;00;04 - 01;37;04;09
Chris Prins
Cash only a bell. So, sponsors.
01;37;04;11 - 01;37;17;02
Max Grover
I'll let you make that call. We're getting 100 people that listen to us. It's great. Yeah. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that we should talk about. I mean, John, I appreciate you guys.
01;37;17;04 - 01;37;18;04
John Francis
Yeah, thanks for having me.
01;37;18;04 - 01;37;40;03
Max Grover
But it's just a is a person and and a person that I have been I have called John and asked questions before in the past, and you're always willing to answer questions. You're always involved, you're approachable, and you've done a lot of very cool stuff and admirable things and I also appreciate that you're like you're under the radar for the most part, too.
01;37;40;03 - 01;37;47;13
Max Grover
Like you're not having to be front and center on everything like that and just doing your thing. I love that about you. So thank.
01;37;47;13 - 01;37;51;28
John Francis
You. Thank you. Yeah. So, Chris, as you're your due dates coming up here.
01;37;51;28 - 01;38;03;08
Chris Prins
It's called the 15th or coming there are 30 week. I'm excited for you I know it's going to be a lot of fun. That's a talk about 12 weeks. My wife's what, eight months? Nine months?
01;38;03;10 - 01;38;08;09
Max Grover
Yeah. In July. I'm Angel and it's supposed to be like 100 degrees this weekend.
01;38;08;11 - 01;38;13;12
Chris Prins
There's a lot of We're going down to her parents lake and floating and staying and staying out He.
01;38;13;18 - 01;38;18;06
John Francis
Sounds like she'll have some warm weather when she's, you know, recuperating.
01;38;18;06 - 01;38;24;20
Chris Prins
Well, I know that's a nice thing. We keep talking about my guy. Once we have him this, you can go on the walks and be able enjoy the fall weather.
01;38;24;22 - 01;38;36;20
Max Grover
Have you have you seen the memes going around about like the dads and like everyone wants to talk about women and how hard birth is, but no one ever talks about how uncomfortable that couches.
01;38;36;23 - 01;38;37;24
Chris Prins
All that you said I got.
01;38;37;24 - 01;38;43;13
Max Grover
This horrible thing is so horrible. Yeah. And they come and wake you up like 7000 times.
01;38;43;13 - 01;38;48;29
Chris Prins
Well, we just, we just did the tour yesterday of the hospital and stuff and got to show the rooms and all that good stuff.
01;38;49;01 - 01;38;51;14
Max Grover
Which. Which hospital? Metro. Metro. Okay.
01;38;51;17 - 01;38;58;24
Chris Prins
Very cool. Awesome rooms are pretty, pretty good size having all picked out. Yeah, we do. Asher Okay, sure. Henry Yeah.
01;38;58;25 - 01;39;01;21
Max Grover
I love it. That's awesome. Yeah, that's exciting.
01;39;01;21 - 01;39;02;14
Chris Prins
It's a biblical name.
01;39;02;14 - 01;39;06;25
Max Grover
So I missed that part in the Bible.
01;39;06;28 - 01;39;12;17
Chris Prins
So that's an.
01;39;12;19 - 01;39;19;23
Max Grover
Yeah, I'm not me. I love the name, actually, but I was thinking Asher Roth, which is like a singer rapper.
01;39;19;28 - 01;39;20;18
John Francis
Oh.
01;39;20;21 - 01;39;25;14
Max Grover
My God. Yeah, but. But yeah. Beverly Yeah. Then I was thinking Bible the.
01;39;25;16 - 01;39;26;02
Chris Prins
After for.
01;39;26;03 - 01;39;32;20
Max Grover
That. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on, John. Any last comments or anything want to leave us with or.
01;39;32;22 - 01;39;36;23
John Francis
No, I think I laid it out there. So yeah, we really cool down.
01;39;36;26 - 01;40;04;18
Chris Prins
Thank you.