Richard App Downtown GR Inc.

In this episode, we sit down with Richard App from Downtown Grand Rapids Inc. to talk about the evolution of downtown GR, current initiatives shaping the city’s future, and how public-private collaboration is driving vibrant, growth. Whether you’re a local business owner, developer, or urban enthusiast, this conversation offers insight into what’s next for the heart of Grand Rapids.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Max and Chris Show. Uh, today we have Richard app from, uh, city Grand Rapids, as well as, uh, DGRI and the Grand Rapids Chamber. Awesome, awesome. Richard, thanks for joining us today. Oh, thanks for having me. So before we begin, let's get all our March Madness picks. 'cause this will Bright Air after some of the games have been played.

[00:00:26] So who do you guys have as winners right now? Uh, I'm not, I don't really follow. Did you not do a bracket? We, we did one in the office, but it's like the, the way they set it up, it's like pick by, pick each round. Mm-hmm. And I've just been going to chat GTV and being like, highest probably doability winner, just pushing it through.

[00:00:48] I'll say Michigan. Michigan State. Well have them both. If they both win, they play each other next round. Play each, well, they play each other on. Sunday, if they both win, if they both win. Okay, cool. Well, I think Michigan's got a good chance against Auburn. Yeah, I mean, they're a big team. They're playing better than they've ever played, so I'm pretty excited about that.

[00:01:06] But, and I'm also a Michigan guy, so I, uh, have a little bit of bias there, but I don't know if they can get past Michigan State. They're a good team. I know. And, uh, it, it's tough to say that, but it's true. I mean, you can't, it, it's hard to bet against Israel. Well, I know it's, I'm a Spartan fan and our first halfs always stink, but I'm like, the second half they're gonna come out and they're gonna play strong.

[00:01:24] I'm going Michigan, Michigan State, and then Spart loses to Florida. I'm going, Florida wins the whole thing. Are we, oh, you guys are talking all the way. You guys are talking basketball. I've been talking hockey. Oh yeah, Western Michigan's really good. That's, no, that's all about to start too. But actually, the Women's Hockey National Championship game was just this last weekend, and it was electric.

[00:01:46] Like I only caught the third period, but it was, apparently the Wisco was down three to one. Came back three to two 18 seconds left in the game. OSU covers the puck and the crease or close to automatic penalty shot 18 seconds left in the game. Wow. Wisconsin. Coach says, who wants to take the shot? This girl shoots her hands up Sims, she goes out, has an unbelievable penalty shot, move scores, sends Wisconsin OSU, she's on Wisconsin, sends 'em to overtime and then she got the golden goal in overtime and won the national championship.

[00:02:25] And I'm like, oh my gosh. How cool is that? That's, that's pretty awesome. I have two cousins that played for, uh, university of. Minnesota Duluth. Mm-hmm. And it's amazing what a small school that is, but how good they are men and women for years. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I had a handful of buddies that played there too.

[00:02:43] Okay. Did you ever play any of those schools when you played? Uh, we, we went over and played the Gopher Minnesota Gophers and the tournament, like Christmas tournament. I don't think we ever played Duluth Mankato, but we were in the, it was the CCHA at the time, which was essentially like the, what the Big 10 was, is the Big 10 League is today or close to Michigan, Michigan State, um, Ohio State.

[00:03:07] But then we had Western Miami, Ohio, bowling Green, where I was at Lake State, Northern Mish. Okay. I'm probably forgetting a few. It all got mixed up. I don't even know anymore. I understand. I mean, uh, I can remember phone numbers better than I can remember names. That's, well, that's a real, that's a reality.

[00:03:26] He still remember your buddy's phone number from growing up type thing. Well, now I can say, I remember when the Big 10 was actually 10 teams. Yeah. Oh sure. I'm not even sure what that number is anymore. It's about 18, I think. 18 plus. Yeah. And they're still trying to add teams. I'm like, this is getting ridiculous super leagues.

[00:03:41] It's, you know, and it's sad to see, like, you know, Arizona goes, uh, to the SECI mean, it's like everything's so different now. It's just, it's all like a big corporation. Well, and all the NIL money too, it's like, okay, the whole Cinderella story from March Madness is kind of like gone. 'cause it's all the big schools, all the big schools can just write the checks to those kids and say, Hey, bring 'em over.

[00:04:00] Although if you watched, uh. The Maryland, Colorado State game. Yeah, that was a fun one. That was, I, I was, I don't have a horse in the race, but I love watching Colorado State. They just were so tough and it was hard. It was a tough, I mean, it was literally a last second. I mean, a thanks shot to win. I think he traveled.

[00:04:19] He traveled. I saw the high All I saw highlight. Yeah, I saw the three, three steps. I, I believe that the guy that took that shot was Angel Reese that played for l U'S brother. Mm, seriously? Yeah. Oh, okay. No kidding. Which is kind of nutty. That's funny. That is crazy. That's cool. What are the odds? Well, I think he told, he told the coach later, like, oh, that was my first game winning shot ever.

[00:04:39] Like he never took one in high school and all the a a u I'm sure he is played and stuff. That's crazy. Just cool story. That's fun. Yeah. Where did, where'd you go to school? So I went to Kendall for, oh, I went to, I, I grew up in Grand Rapids. Okay. I went to, I went to Catholic Central, then I went to, okay.

[00:04:54] Then I went to Kendall. Then I, uh, went out west to NAU, uh, okay. Northern Arizona. And, um, like a lot of people, I actually thought I was gonna stay out west. Came back to Grand Rapids to, uh, do a couple things. I wound up opening my own business for a bit. I had a successful business for a number of years, and, um, kind of got out of that in 2018.

[00:05:16] And then my position with the city was created January of 2020. Okay, cool. Which, and Chris probably knows a lot more about all of the Downtown Inc. And what that is versus the chamber versus the actual city. I'm a little embarrassed, like I don't do a ton in like city center, downtown core, like. I don't even know what the difference between, like the most, mostly what the downtown Inc.

[00:05:45] Like what their roles, responsibilities, and what you guys do there. So down, D-D-G-R-I is, uh, essentially the, it's an arm of the city, kind of independent on this, on their own, but they are the ones that do the, uh, the DDA, the Downtown Development Association, the downtown improvement district, the tiffs that you'll get.

[00:06:06] I mean, so a lot of those incentive things come from, from DGRI. Okay. So, uh, world of Winter is one of their big pro programs that they've done, uh, to bring people in. Last year, 4.8 million people came to Grand Rapids because of World of Winter. It's, that was cool. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's the largest, uh, winter festival in the country, which is pretty cool.

[00:06:24] And then there's a lot of other initiatives they do the Relax at Rosa, a few of these other things, but they're, they're a real economic driver for the city. Um, you mentioned that you were, uh, a lot of into the industrial world, so the right place Yep. Kind of. Works as an arm, kind of like DGRI. Mm-hmm. But there's a little bit of chamber crossover there too, because like the right place is a nonprofit, but not, it's not necessarily, I think the city gives money to the right place if I'm, they get their own, they get their own incentive monies too.

[00:06:57] But it's not a part of the city. Right. Like it's not, it's a separate entity. Yeah. Yeah. We're downtown. GR Inc. Is, is it a subsidiary city? There're s they're a separate entity as well. They're a 5 0 1 C3 six, maybe 5 0 1 C or not. It's not a 5 0 1 C, but it's a, I'm, I embarrassed. That's why I count. That's that's why we have account.

[00:07:19] Exactly. So it's a, in my mind it's like basically your, the Grand Rapids DA Yes. That's what I think of as a, it being, but, but, but also the Improvement district and the TIFF funds that come in for other businesses too. So there's a, they're a financial arm that helps support businesses throughout the city.

[00:07:39] Okay. So if you look, I mean, if you think about the, uh, the newest project downtown that was just, uh, announced last week, or they did the wall breaking for the, uh, a hundred and the 140, uh, apartments that's going into the fifth, third building. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Um, the DA or downtown Grand Rapids Incorporated, uh, supported that.

[00:07:57] The soccer stadium, the, uh, amphitheater. The amphitheater, those, you know, projects like that are, are part of it. Um, also the River Project, we got a really large grant to, uh, help do that. So there's a, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, work that's done that behind the scenes that people Okay. Who puts are, 'cause we just finished up with like Irish, right.

[00:08:17] Or Irish off Ionia. Like who, who, is that like a private event then, or does the city step? It's, it, it's a private event. It is, um, 'cause obviously they use city facilities to a certain extent, like the roadways and stuff. And Calder Plaza, well, this year with, with off ia, they did it at Calder Plaza. Now they rent Calder Plaza, um, from the city.

[00:08:38] Okay. And then, um, it's actually a better way to do it because they're not closing roads, they're not affecting other businesses. Um, and uh, it's also, um, it's very nicely contained. So I think that was good. But it's a. Blackly was the, is the, oh, that's right. The bar arm behind. Bar fly, sorry. Yep. Um, they're, they're the arm behind that, so.

[00:08:58] Okay. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. Well, maybe we chat a little bit just about some of those bigger projects happening in town. I mean, you mentioned the fifth third, you mentioned the soccer stadium, the amphitheater, like there's a lot of projects going on right now, just in the city of Grand Rapids. I saw equipment on site for the soccer stadium this week.

[00:09:15] Well, the groundbreaking is next month, so, I mean, we're right around the corner. I mean, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's pretty exciting to see that's gonna happen in April. Um. The, I mean, we have, I, I would say there's really six big projects going on within the downtown area. Uh, the amphitheater that opens up next year, that's gonna be a huge economic driver for the city.

[00:09:36] Um, the soccer stadium, same thing. Um, myself, um, our city manager, the head of the dda, a, uh, head of DGRI, our mayor went to Cincinnati, Columbus in Greenville, South Carolina. And we actually looked at, say, stocker stadiums that were in, in, in their infancy and then a couple years old. And then what to see the infill that comes around there with retail, with restaurants, yeah.

[00:09:59] And with housing is huge. So those are, those are two projects. Um, is Cincinnati's in the downtown core or is it. Yeah. The, the way this Major League soccer program works is they actually do something that I, I love, and it has to be in the downtown core's. Cool. I mean, imagine Cool. It's the white caps where Downtown Grand Rapids.

[00:10:17] Yeah. What a change that would make to our city. Um, but two other projects, and I mean, it's nice that you go almost have a map in front of me right here, but the, uh, Fulton, Fulton and Market Project. Yeah. Largest project in the history of the city of Grand Rapids. It's close to $800 million. And when I say close, it's like $797 million project.

[00:10:35] Geez. It's literally gonna change our skyline. We've got 42, 27 and 19 story buildings, 50 to 60,000 square feet of retail. Think about a couple restaurants on the river. Yeah. Um, there'll be enough room for another hotel in that building. 625 apartments, 70 ish condos in that space. Uh, so it's a, it's a huge pri it's a huge project.

[00:10:56] Where, where are they at in that? Um, well, the. The cash deck is pretty close to being done, but that project is probably a couple years from, uh, breaking ground. Okay. It's probably an eight year project to get that thing done. Sure. Because there's a lot of infrastructure you've gotta go down on for that.

[00:11:13] So did they get their brownfield tiff, everything approved, or they there yet, or no? I be, I wouldn't, I don't think they, well, the reason that it made such a big splash is actually when they, um. When the press release went out, it was because the, it was going to be, uh, announced on the round field that that was gonna be one of the projects that they were going looking at.

[00:11:32] So you gotta get ahead of that a little bit. Yep. So, I mean, those are, those are three really major projects, but I also, you know, I wouldn't discount factory yards, even though it's not in the downtown footprint. It's really close. It activates a whole nother part of the city though, too. Well, yeah, I mean, you're talking about.

[00:11:50] About 20 plus retail opportunities. That food hall's gonna be a really cool deal. Uh, several hundred apartments over there too. And I mean, it's a 10 minute walk from where the amphitheaters can be. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, uh, and it's a, it's literally, it's that same amount of walk from the dash bus, so you'll be able to get around downtown very easily.

[00:12:08] And so those are four projects. But the two other projects that I think we can't keep our eyes off of are the trail projects that are happening throughout the city where we're connecting the North Country Trail, which is about 4,500 miles long. It starts in, uh, North Dakota, goes all the way to the New York, uh, wow.

[00:12:25] Not border, but the epicenter of the North Country Trail, which is actually the largest trail in the country. Is in Lowell, Michigan. So we're 15 miles away and we're gonna take the White Pine Trail, the Grand River Greenway, and a couple other trails. We're gonna combine all these trail projects. And so we're gonna have about 5,500 miles of trails that are all connected in Grand Rapids is a city that's in the center of that.

[00:12:47] Oh, cool. Um, so that's a major product. And then there, and then the river project, I mean, um, we're, uh, I don't know if I'm a hundred percent right, but I'm pretty close. Mm-hmm. It's, we're the, those, those dams that are coming outta the river? Yep. Yeah. Um, it's 20 feet, eight inches from essentially the sixth Street Bridge to Fulton Street.

[00:13:06] So we're putting the, the rapids back in Grand Rapids and we're gonna be able to use. The river and these trail projects as, as real economic drivers. So you stay at the Amway, you stay at the jw, you'll be able to get out and go, you know, for literally hundreds of miles on trails. And, uh, we're gonna be, I mean, grand Rapids in a few years will be, in my opinion, and I am, I'm very confident in this, is we're gonna be looked at like a Bentonville, Arkansas by, um, what's going on in Boulder.

[00:13:34] Mm-hmm. What's going on in Salt Lake City. And, uh, and we should, I mean, we don't have the mountains, but we've got the water, we've got the trails, we have the four Seasons. Mm-hmm. And so it's exciting to see that these projects are, you know, alongside of these big infrastructure projects that are happening.

[00:13:51] Yeah. It's massive. Yeah. Well then you did like the fifth third, like, that's another one. Um, max breaking this back. Yep. This table I told you got pushed back. You're talking about the art? I just knocked it off the wall. Yeah. But that whole project within itself, you're converting an office building to apartments, and obviously they have the ground floor retail right there.

[00:14:11] That, that's a whole endeavor as well by CWD. Yeah. And I mean it's, uh, you know, we hope that that's a, an r and d rip off and duplicate kind of a thing because I mean, we, uh. One of the things that we've noticed, you know, my job was created literally right before the pandemic. I mean, I started January 26th, 2020 Oh my start.

[00:14:31] And this is, you know, a job that didn't really have a roadmap as far as how is this gonna work? Are we even gonna have it downtown anymore when that kicks off? But we don't, I mean, what we've seen is that a lot of people aren't returning to the offices. Mm-hmm. And, uh, the sooner that we can, are you feeling that?

[00:14:46] I was curious about that. Like, it, is it, I mean, it seems like the parking ramps are still full and stuff when I go down there, but I was just, when are you down there? I, I mean, midweek you week or weekend. Right. For, because like I went down for the Griffin's game and it was like jam packed, but you get an activity, like the events I think are busy.

[00:15:04] I just don't know during the week if it's, well, we're not seeing as many people. I mean, and that's, uh, interesting, you know, of a challenge that I would say that's out there. As for the restaurants as, I mean, there's a lot of restaurants that rely on that breakfast and lunch crowd. Mm-hmm. That aren't there.

[00:15:17] And, but we're seeing good pivots in that too. I mean, uh, we just had a pokey place that came in downtown that it's one of those, you can get in and out very quickly kind of joints. Yeah. Um, and, uh, the, uh, garden district that just moved on to Monroe Center is another place that you can get in and out pretty, pretty quickly.

[00:15:33] I think that's something that we're doing. And then, um, you know, at the end of, uh, March, we're actually closing on, uh, that UICA building is closing, which is going to be a, uh, it's called Ba, ba Bamboo. It's a workspace that started in Detroit. They have one in Royal Oak. They have one in Ann Arbor. And in Grand Rapids is gonna be their most aggressive one because that's a large building that they're coming in and we're talking about, you know, five to 700 people a week that are gonna be coming into that building.

[00:16:00] So that's really gonna help change. The way our downtown is, and if you know Grand Rapids, the absolute geographic center of our city is division in Fulton. So, I mean, this is, this is going on right in the middle of our city. What you said it's called Bamboo. Bamboo. So is that like a workspace field then, or what, what, what does that entail?

[00:16:18] It's, it's a workspace, but in, it's not like a traditional workspace. I mean, the Grand Rapids Chamber obviously has, uh, you can, you can rent some of those spaces if you're a member in that space, but this is where you can actually rent a specific office in that space. Mm-hmm. And then, um, it's very much geared into the tech world, uh, which, when, you know, you think about the right place has put a really big push towards tech for the city of Grand Rapids.

[00:16:41] And I'm excited about the work that they're doing. Yeah. I mean, they brought, they've just, they're just about to announce a pretty major project that is, uh, gonna vary impact. Uh, not just downtown, but also one of our suburbs. But, you know, the cool thing about that is, um, a lot of people, whether you're a web designer, whether you're graphics, whether you, uh, you know, you're a copywriter, I mean, a lot of these people are gonna be in the same building.

[00:17:04] They can work independently, but you can go across the hall cool. And works with somebody else. There's, it's kind of a, a different kind of incubator. That's cool if you, I mean, well, we had, uh, do you know Josh Smith at all with the Fulton Street Group? Yeah, so he just bought, uh, office building, kind of converted more of like a works, I would say, obviously smaller capacity than that.

[00:17:22] But I was talking to him earlier this week and he's like, obviously the construction took a little bit longer. It was a little bit more expensive. But he is like, honestly, I'm so excited. I'm so just looking forward to this. Did you go through it at all? I didn't. We went through the open office. It was, it's great.

[00:17:33] You did a great job, man. Yeah, I'm excited. It's, you know, Custer's got a great space and then, you know, the Chamber actually expanded last summer and it's already full. I mean, it's, it's amazing how many people, that's a beautiful space collaborating outta those spaces. It's, it's funny. So I use, uh, MVP's workspace.

[00:17:47] They're off of Burton and East Paris. Mm-hmm. And that's the same, it's like, just put a bunch of tables in there. They have offices you can rent out, and then the old coffee bar and stuff. And it's like, I kinda like it almost more than going to the office. 'cause you get to hear just different conversations about, like, there's a guy who sits next to me, he sells beer, liquor to like convenience stores and it handles that.

[00:18:05] And just the conversations that he is able to have. Oh, cool. Just, just kind of fun and a unique experience. Yeah. Otherwise, being in your office, it's, it's great. But it's like, okay, you're kind of. Siloed just into that specific category. Well, in that same vein, but just a little different, I have been dedicating my Monday mornings to going to a coffee shop and one of the three wards and like stacking meetings, you know, from oh eight, eight to noon and just bang, bang, bang.

[00:18:30] And it's, and it's, and for me it's, it's, it's twofold. Number one, I'm out in the community and I get to see people while I'm out. And I, and I love that. But the other part is, is I'm, I'm trying to bring people to parts of the city that they may not have gone to. Yeah. Um, and that is important because, I mean, our city's growing in such a incredible fashion that I don't think people really get the take, take the time to see.

[00:18:52] Where all the growth is coming from. Yeah. I mean, we're getting real investments from outside of Grand Rapids where people are looking at our city and saying, I don't know what they're doing in this city of 200,000 people that's got a population or a metro population of 1.4. But they're doing cool things, you know?

[00:19:08] And I, you know, one thing I would love to. Dispelled that we d seem to do here in Grand Rapids is just like that Midwest Nice. That aw shucks kind of thing. I mean, yeah. Our city manager, um, came from Austin during that 1000% growth and he brought some real talent with him. Uh, David Green, who's our comms director of comms for the City, can he get Rogan to open a comedy club here?

[00:19:30] That's a, he was here to announce that, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. There's the big tech announcement. Well, well, I think, I think I, I would say bigger than that. He brought Catlan Whittington from South by Southwest, uh, and, you know, uh, for Art prize. Mm-hmm. Art Prize brought a $71.4 million positive economic impact to the city of Grand Rapids last year.

[00:19:49] Yeah. And I know because I get to see behind the curtain a little bit, it's gonna be cooler this year. Mm-hmm. I mean, the evolution of that is really amazing. And so, you know, we have these things happening in the city of Grand Rapids that. Uh, quite frankly, other people aren't doing. And one of the things I love about that is that because we have a city, A-D-G-R-I, a Grand Rapids Chamber, the right place and experienced Grand Rapids, these organizations work really well together because I think that you, you look at it and you're like, we not this one organization may not be able to move the needle, but when you're working together, we're pretty unstoppable.

[00:20:23] I mean, if you think about it, during the pandemic, we put a website together, these five different organizations that were basically how to help businesses throughout the city. And that happened really quickly. Um, that was one of the first things that I was kind of a part of. And I was like, my gosh, we moved so quickly.

[00:20:39] And so that's cool. Lateral and forward. And, you know, as a result. I believe we've done, I don't think we've just recovered from the pandemic we we're growing. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think, I mean, just with those six projects you named, but three of those are breaking ground this year, which would be factory yards, amphitheaters under construction, factory yards has started.

[00:21:02] Correct. Uh, they have cleaned out the warehouse. Okay. It was, there was, but they're really gonna go full bore this summer. Correct. Is that true Or they're waiting on one? They've had one little delay, but it's coming. Okay. And it's a, it's, that's a complicated project. Very, yeah. And very complex. Multiple buildings and assemblage of multiple parcels and buildings.

[00:21:23] And I can't imagine. And you two, I mean obviously renovation too in your business, you know, this, I mean, a lot of these things happen because of cash tax. You have to figure out what the MBDC, what the tif I is there, what the Brownfield could be. And um, you need some really big brains behind those. And for fortunately, we have one of the best here in West Michigan to do that kind of work.

[00:21:41] Yeah. And that's why it's so nice to have those different entities that can help guide you through of what is available. And how to apply for those different grants or incentive stacks and all of those. It, it's complex. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Super complex. And I think that, uh, you know, that's even in, got down into the retail, um, world.

[00:22:01] You know, we try to do, I what, one of the things that I try to do, because I come from a small business background, is I wanna tell people where the money is. I mean, that's, uh, that's exciting to me because nobody, nobody, nobody held my hand through some of those things. And we know we have facade improvement grants in about five or six of the different CIAs and the bis.

[00:22:21] Uh, but then DGRI has their own arm of what they've got with incentives too. And so, you know, telling people what those things are, um, it makes it a little easier and it makes it a little more friendly to bring businesses accessible from outside of Greater Rapid into the city. It makes it accessible. Hi, I'm Max Grover from the Max and Chris Show.

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[00:23:04] Instead, it proudly stands as the central mission of Excite Itself. I trust excite for my property management and you should too. For more information, visit excite c m.com. Excite cm.com. Where have you seen, like, what other cities kind of emulated that program, per se, with the grants? Well, the down, I think a lot of your DDAs, uh, in the major cities have some type of incentive programs.

[00:23:31] Mm-hmm. Uh, but, you know, one of the, one of the best programs that we have, that we've been really successful at over the last three or four years is, uh, the, there's an innovation grant that comes through, uh, DGRI where, um, you know, you could just go right down Monroe Center, Chinola, Gracie. Mm-hmm. Gazelle, um, courage and Soar.

[00:23:52] Yeah. Um, these businesses. Oh, oh, hello. Um. Uh, aroma Labs. Uh, we are able to do things with those businesses where we, we can pay up to 50% of their, uh, first 18 months up to $60,000 to help that business come in. And when, you know, when a chinola comes in and puts a major investment in one of the more significant corners in our downtown, it really changes the way that works.

[00:24:16] I mean, yeah, that was exciting. Yeah. Yeah. That was a, that was a long process, but it was really fun to, um, to get them here. And I can, I'll give you a, a cool little deal about that is last May, um, their director, their vice president of Innovation and retail called me like Monday on a Monday morning at.

[00:24:36] Like 8 0 5, 8 0 5 in the morning. It's usually never a good, good, good call. It's, it's almost never what you wanna get. And he's like, Hey, I wanted to talk to you about something. And I'm like, what's going on? And he said, uh, well, um, that was the weekend of the Davenport and Grand Valley graduations downtown too.

[00:24:50] Mm. So there was a lot more people. He said that, you know, we do this, uh, we do this round table at the beginning of every month, and we talk about, you know, what stores are doing well and how, you know, what, what kind of success they're having. Our downtown Grand Rapids store outperformed their Detroit stores.

[00:25:07] During the NFL draft when there was a million other people. Wow. Even with the, even with the hotel too. Yeah. That's crazy. And so, I mean, that's a, it's a story to tell. Yeah. And it's like, that's, it's real. Yeah. And I mean, and you know, the, uh, the interesting thing is, is like when you kind of dive into a store like, uh, Chinola, it makes sense in Grand Rapids, and they, they were one of the first, they were one of three stores that when I started, I said, if we put these downtown, it will change our downtown.

[00:25:32] Mm-hmm. Gazelle Sports was one of those as well. Yeah. Um, I believe that Grand Rapids is a happy, healthy lifestyle city. Yeah. And those are the businesses that I really see that are making sense in inner city. Yeah. Uh, you go onto Wealthy Street, um, feral outdoor. Started in Boulder, second store in Denver.

[00:25:52] Third store in Grand Rapids. Mm-hmm. Uh, across the street. Paddle North. Yep. Minneapolis. Yeah. St. Paul Grand Rapids. Um, downtown, the big mini cut putt club. I don't know if you guys have been to that yet, but there's an indoor mini of golf place. Chicago Lakeview, grand Rapids. We have something here that people are saying, you know what, I'm gonna, I want to go check this out.

[00:26:14] And it, uh, it's a safe city and all those businesses that I've just mentioned, Grayson, uh, being another one. Yeah. Um, they're really happy with the response that they're getting for our city. I mean, and now we have like a real retail corridor happening in our city, and it's exciting to see that. I, I like to see that.

[00:26:31] My only pushback is. I just don't know if a retail corridor being a one-way street is, is the best for it because I, I I, I always like to see the traffic going, going both ways. My only pushback with Monte Monroe Center, and maybe this is more of a city planner, is it's kind of a one-way street leading to you, you to Fulton that then kind of takes you up the hill or on division, which hopefully someday division kind of gets revitalized and brought back.

[00:26:55] Well, I would argue that division's doing pretty okay and I think we need to actually kind of, um, what we have to think about when we think about division and Heart side. Yeah, heart side gets kind of a negative wrap because when you think Heart side, you think of South Division, and you may think of South Division from six or seven years ago, but we have seven different vintage stores going in, in that, in that space.

[00:27:15] Yeah. We have a, a new record store there. We've got, uh, I saw some clothing retailer like, uh, with jerseys and stuff. Yeah, yeah, there's quite a few of those. And, uh, there's also a new, uh, vintage guitar stop down there. But more importantly, when you think about Heart side, heart side goes from. Jefferson to the river, wealthy to Fulton.

[00:27:34] Yep. So it's a large area. Um, there's a half a dozen art galleries in there. There's about eight different live music venues in that space. There's, uh, the only movie theater that we have in our downtown. Yeah. If we, I mean the Vanana Arena is there founders, uh, pyramid scheme, um, all of these businesses are in that space.

[00:27:52] If we don't think of heart side as our entertainment district, where would that be? I mean, the amphitheater's going to be in, is in that space as well. Well, so the year, the things will be continuing to change and there's more investment as far as, uh, more, uh, more livable spaces going into Yeah. In that space too.

[00:28:09] The hard aspect is I didn't, I go to ICSC, which is the International Council of Shopping Centers, and I remember a couple years ago I talked to a retailer and said, Hey, what about downtown Grand Rapids? Well-known restaurant? He goes, I love downtown Grand Rapids. He goes, I love founders. I love what you guys have over, we're at Bobcat.

[00:28:24] You know, you got Bridge Street. He goes, my big issue with the Grand City of Grand Rapids, he goes, I don't know where to go from a position standpoint. He goes, you have great things going down Bridge Street, but then you have great things going down iia, where you have Buffalo Wild Wings from a national perspective.

[00:28:39] They're gonna pull it up on a boardroom and say, where do we go? IIA has Buffalo Wild Wings. You know, we have shops on Monroe Center. Um, obviously you've got Shinola now and then you go to Bridge Street, you go, okay, we've got Myers Urban Concept store. Where, where do I go? 'cause at the end of the day, the nationals and I understand we, we don't need all nationals, but the nationals are gonna have to go into the boardroom to present that to themselves.

[00:29:00] Sure. So that's the only criticism that I get on downtown Grand Rapids is we're almost too spread out. And I think the projects are great, the projects are fun, but are we almost spreading out too much where we can't focus in, 'cause I look at like downtown Holland, everyone knows. Okay, you do all your shopping there on eighth Street.

[00:29:17] Yep. You look at downtown ada, ADA's a little different story, but it's all the shoppings consolidated into one area. Well, we have a perception of spread out walkability. Yeah. I mean, the original art prize footprint was a three mile grid. Yeah. Um, I live essentially at the corner of Wealthy and Cherry Street.

[00:29:38] Mm-hmm. Um, my wife and I went out for dinner a couple years back and we went to, uh, butcher's Union. Yep. We Ubered over and we were gonna do the same thing on the way back 'cause it was beautiful summer, summer night. Um, as the crow flies, we actually started walking. We're like, why don't we grab a drink downtown?

[00:29:55] Well, so we, we went through an awan park. Yeah. Uh, grabbed a drink there and we're like, you know, we're almost home. Just keep going. It's two miles from my house at wealthy and, uh, and Madison to Butcher's Union. It's a small area. I mean, that's 30 minute walk. I mean, I oftentimes walk downtown because this is the kind of nerd, as nerd that I am, but there's 14 stoplights between my house and where I park downtown.

[00:30:21] Hmm. If you were to get, if you were to drive and I were to walk, we could probably get to the same space at the same time. Because when you think about that getting into a parking ramp, it's a lot easier. So I think we need to actually kind of think about different Grand Rapids a little differently. I mean.

[00:30:37] You just may, this number may shock you, but I'm, I'm very much a, I'm a creative that knows numbers. Um, grand Rapids had 29 thou, 29,950,000 people visit Grand Rapids according to place of AI last year. Mm-hmm. 30 million people in a city of about 200,000. That's a big number. Yeah. Um, our experience, grand Rapids just experienced the highest hotel occupancy ever.

[00:31:02] Are they able to break that out based on like business travel versus Yes. Pleasure. Yeah, sure. I mean, any idea on that breakout of that 30 million, how much is driven from industry or commerce versus like, Hey, we're here to visit and we are just getting to that point. Okay. Where we're the city that you want to visit?

[00:31:21] I mean, you think about it. The Amway River Bank run? Yep. Huge. Large. 25 country. 20 5K in the country. I believe we had 177. Thousand people come for athletic events to Grand Rapids last year. ArtPrize, like I said, $71.4 million in positive economic impact. Yeah. That's not just local money that's coming in.

[00:31:43] I mean, 60% of that's coming from outside of this area. Yeah. Um, the, like I said, world of Winter, 4.8 million people coming in a time where dent generally nobody wants to be downtown. And then we've got 40 other, you know, like cultural festivals going on in our city. So, I mean, we're the kind of place that people are coming to.

[00:32:01] And I mean, I, I work very closely with our hotels downtown. I mean, the interesting thing is, maybe this isn't interesting, but I am one of the people that changed the, uh, the center city business, uh, association or the, uh, Monroe Center Business Association to the hotel district. There are 2017 hotel rooms in downtown Grand Rapids.

[00:32:23] Hmm. And, um. Last year during the summer, we were at about eight. We were a little under 80% occupancy. So you take that 2000, you multiply that by 1.5, there's another 3000 people downtown. Mm-hmm. So when you, when you, is that pretty healthy for a hotel? I don't even know what the, I think those are pretty healthy first.

[00:32:41] It's, I would assume so really great because, uh, grand Rapids was the place you leave in the summer, but now people are coming here during that time because there's things going on. And I mean, we have the Breakaway Music Festival that's going on in Belknap. We have the pickle ball going on over at Belknap.

[00:32:56] That brought a, a few, a few million dollar positive economic impact. And it was on, uh, it was on ESBN last year. I mean, we have all these different athletic events going on. I mean, I don't know if you've been to, I mean, shameless plug, but I don't know if you've been to a Grand Rapids Rise game, you're not gonna see a, a more exciting athletic, uh, uh, endeavor in Grand Rapids than you see with, I mean, these women are.

[00:33:17] Incredible. Yeah. And it's like, it's dynamic. I mean, my, my wife, uh, and I have been probably five or six games this year. And these, I mean, these are such talented and, and it's actually the only professional sports team we have. All the other ones are minor. Minor, yeah. So I mean, it's a, can we get A-P-W-H-L team?

[00:33:34] You know what that is? I just went to, one of those games is a professional women's hockey league, and they have like six teams and they had, they do like a traveling tour for part of the season or so I, I don't know how many games they do, but they, it was New York versus. Minnesota, I want to say in, they played it at Little Caesars Stadium and they filled this rink with 15,000 Seriously.

[00:33:59] Kids probably, I mean, most of it was probably girls 15 and under. And I've never heard a rink pop like the was insane. Oh, I bet you Detroit wants a team obvious. And I'm like, what? Why does it, I'm like, man, we've got the, we've got a lot of energy over here too. Well, it was cool. They had the sports forum, I think like breakfast last week.

[00:34:20] Mm-hmm. And it was great hearing like each, they had the white caps, they had the Griffins the rise and stuff. And um, Meyer Sports Complex. But it was really interesting just to hear them talk about the rise in, like, yeah, we're trying to make the game like quick, but there's also stuff going in between each of 'em.

[00:34:35] We don't, we don't want a bunch of downtime and stuff like that. Just, well, I mean, if you think about it too, I mean, we are adding two other major sport or, uh, entertaining venues. The soccer with the amphitheater and the soccer stadium. Yeah. Yeah. That's just gonna bring more people downtown. I mean, I, uh, one of the things I continue to evangelize about downtown is one of the things that our small-mindedness comes in, and I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this, but there's no parking in downtown.

[00:35:01] Don't we always hear that? Yeah. But the dash bus is free. It goes through six different business districts in a 45 minute loop, and it goes by our, our main library. It goes by the downtown market. It goes by the Bridge Street market. It, it's going to go by the soccer stadium, it's going to go by the amphitheater and it goes through all the hotels.

[00:35:18] Is that part of the like, I mean, we've been so used to Grand Rapids. It's like, you know, growing up is like, you could get anywhere in 15 minutes in Grand Rapids. Now it's probably closer to 20, but everyone's kind of goes into downtown and then out out and has not traditionally lived downtown, which is also in the process of changing.

[00:35:36] Sure. There's growing and you have. I mean, you have to get people living down there to activate the retail, to go to the grocery stores, to go to the bars, to go to the restaurants and keep that consistency to work down there. I, I agree. And I, but I would also challenge, they, they, when you think about different neighborhoods like Heritage Hill, where I am, or the West side Sure.

[00:35:54] Or West Leonard or Belknap mm-hmm. Or Monroe North. Um, these are all, or, or, uh, Midtown, these are all within a short walking distance to downtown. Sure. And so that, and, and you, some of those neighborhoods that I've just mentioned are some of the dense, the mo, the densest neighborhoods in our city. Mm-hmm. I don't, I don't believe for a second that we're, I mean, I don't think parking is gonna be as much of a conversation in five years as it is today.

[00:36:19] These are growing pain conversations. It's like, I, I've always said about Grand Rapids, like, we're a Yeah. But why, why do you say like, uh, just outta curiosity, why do you think the parking as it gets busier, why do you think that? Just because people become more used to it or? Sure. I mean, I, my brother. Has lived in Chicago for a dozen years.

[00:36:37] Yeah. Mm-hmm. And he just got a car. And he just got a car because his job, public transit, his job takes him to, uh, to Rockford and to Springfield, Illinois. And he, so he's, he needs, he needs that. He needs that. But I mean, I, I think we have the infrastructure to, to be able to live in a downtown, or even get to downtown.

[00:36:55] I mean, you can park at the dash lot for three bucks and then you're, then you're, I mean, that can make your whole downtown a, a much cooler gig. And I, um, I just feel like we need to be a better steward of a better storyteller of what our city has. The hard thing about that too is. We're just living in Michigan.

[00:37:13] Four outta five months, we're probably dealing with Blizzard. Yep. And I feel, because I used, I used to live downtown in place with my wife and we'd like, like, alright, maybe we can make it to the skywalk and we'll make it to the Amway. But that's as far as we're staying outside where it's like, I get, but the amphitheater's obviously gonna be more of a spring, summer, fall kind of atmosphere and environment.

[00:37:33] Yep. But I think that's a little bit of the hurdle that we're gonna face in downtown, which I like. I like the ability to get creative. I think the Skywalks a great addition. I agree. I would be cool. I've always said, I think Minnesota has it, like they have little bars in their skywalk. I always thought that would be a really cool idea to just pop some little small restaurants and stuff in there.

[00:37:50] Well, you look at like Minneapolis and Rochester specifically, um, you can. You can pretty much walk Rochester, Minnesota Yep. Everywhere. And not go outside during that time. Yeah. Yep. But I also feel that, uh, you know, we need to dress for the weather. I mean, one of, I don't know if either one of you saw, but a, you know, a few months back I put something out in a very, the most basic thing that I could do is where, you know, like it was actually kind of during the election season last year where people are always saying, you know, the American people want this.

[00:38:19] The American people want this. But they don't ask you, they don't ask me. So I put QR codes on some vacant spaces downtown. Mm-hmm. And the whole deal behind it was, what do you want here? Mm. And one of the things that was overwhelmingly big on there was an outfitter. People want an outfitter in downtown Grand Rapids.

[00:38:36] And it's gonna make sense when we have these hiking trails. It's gonna make sense when we are activating our parks in a bigger way. And, and also with the river projects. I mean, that's going to slay downtown. I mean, that's, I just see it. Yeah, I like that. But I, I like, I, I used to have listings in Lowell, Michigan.

[00:38:55] I love Lowell, but I would get all the time on, like, I post it on Facebook and everyone would be like, well, I want Whole Foods here. I'm like, it's great, but that's just not the market for it within itself. And I like, it's, it's almost like a balancing act of you gotta put the right retailers in the right place, in the right situation.

[00:39:10] 'cause no one wants to put a retailer in and then six months later, all of a sudden they're giving the keys back to, to the landlord. And I think downtown Grand Rapids will get there from a size standpoint. But I still think, and these apartments are gonna be great, but the more we. Create density down there, I think you're gonna see those businesses continue to succeed and flourish well, when you add density to a, a city that's being visited as much as we are.

[00:39:34] Mm-hmm. Yep. Oh, I mean, you're looking at having two different income streams almost coming in and you know, the, the nice thing about having a gazelle, a Grayson, and a chinola all within a very short walk from each other is that's pulling people from, you know, different zip codes throughout. I mean, the, the 4, 9, 5 2 5, the 4 9, 5 0 6, there are people coming from these and we're seeing this with actual data and that, and that's exciting to me.

[00:39:58] And I mean, the same with Rockford, same with Lowell, same with, uh, the Jenison Hudsonville area. People are coming because they know these businesses are downtown. Is that data available anywhere? Like the, the feedback you got, like, Hey, we want a clothing retailer or anything like that? Like is that readily available by that city or is that in more internal?

[00:40:13] Uh, to be perfectly honest, I've actually kind of gone down my own path on this because, um, yeah. Like I said, I got kind of tired of listening to other people when we start breaking down the city of Grand Rapids. You know, we're like kind of the fastest growing city in the state, but we're growing the fastest between the ages of 18 and 34 years old.

[00:40:29] Yeah. So we don't need a Brooks Brothers downtown. We don't need an Ann Taylor downtown. Yeah. But I'll tell you, if you bring us some cool, uh, urban footwear, I mean, you go to like a Reynolds and Sons or Premier Skateboards. I just, I bought my, my son a cool pair of Adidas from there yesterday. Yeah. I mean, this is the stuff that's selling and I mean that's, I mean, who dressed?

[00:40:47] I mean, I'm wearing a sport coat today 'cause I have a photo shoot after this. But, uh, you know, by and large I'm not, uh, I haven't worn like dress shoes in like years. I just don't, and I mean, and, uh, and I don't think that, and I, I don't think that I'm the exception and not the rule. I think people are dressing more casually because they can.

[00:41:05] Yeah. And I mean, you're wearing a Carhartt. Yep. Imagine a Carhartt downtown they would kill in downtown. When you think about World of winter, um, 4.8 million people downtown, what kind of gear do you wanna wear? And if you think about our downtown Grand Rapids Community College, Kendall, Western Michigan State, grand Valley, we have all these schools here.

[00:41:25] I mean, those are actually determining factors for some of the businesses that we brought in, because they're not just looking at the, uh, the people that are living here. Theyre looking at the students that are coming and ideally staying here. Yeah. No, and I, I, I do agree with that, but I also have to play devil's advocate and say we have CWD downtown.

[00:41:41] Mm-hmm. And when you look at what Scott's done over at Bretton Village and those retailers that he's brought in over there in that project that he was able to do with the duling. I'm like, I, I think he can pull those contacts and say, Hey guys, start looking in downtown. And so shameless plug for Scott, but he, he's done a phenomenal job.

[00:41:57] I'm excited to see what he is gonna do in Gaslight Village and how he's gonna redo that. And I just think retailers, they're, they're always gonna look at downtown, but it goes back to when, when, what I talked about ICSC, where they're gonna say, but where do I position myself? Because at the end of the day, the real estate directors are putting their head on the line to say they need to be down Monte Monroe Center.

[00:42:16] And we can create that collaboration, we can create that atmosphere down there with Shinola and, oh, hello and Grayson and everyone, but they gotta put their, their, their kind of head on. So, so are you saying are, are you suggesting that like they really need to like, choose a retail corridor spot and just like open the flood gates type thing?

[00:42:35] Like the city? I'm not saying, yeah, I'm talking to Chris right now, but yeah, I, I personally would like to see like a defined corridor. Okay. Of that. How do you, I mean, in your mind, how does that work? And I'm trying to even think like a, it's, it's hard to, like Michigan Street in Chicago. Thing Michigan, yeah.

[00:42:52] Yeah. Okay. Just like a defined retail corridor. Um, which it's gonna be a struggle. 'cause then you're gonna have businesses that are gonna fail too, as well too. Which is, it is a hard struggle. And this isn't a, a dig on the city or anything, but the zoning does make it difficult in some areas, as we're seeing from a just variety of different factors of zoning issues, development issues, and how we're having to navigate those.

[00:43:16] Well, if you think about my job, I, I've been doing this for five years. We're still pretty much in the infancy of saying, you know, what, what kind of, how do we bring retail back where Blue Cross is, who just signed a 10 year lease a year or so ago? Um, that was a, that was a department store for a number of years.

[00:43:33] A lot of these things were, were there and we kind of let those things go. But as, as we bring more businesses back, we, I mean, if you think about where Ola was. There was an IT company in there. Mm-hmm. Um, Rockford had the foresight to say, you know what, can we get you into another space so you can, uh, finish your lease here and, uh, we can bring another business in?

[00:43:52] And they were great to do that. It was, if you remember, Bravo was in that space. Yep. Um, that became a, that became a major space and, and there's opportunities downtown to do this. We just have to, like, the thing that I try to tell people, and it's not just for the work that I do, but it's most, I mean, a lot of times what we try to do is we try to balance things.

[00:44:13] I say, you know, what are your assets rather than your liabilities, your challenges? If you start stacking up your assets first and then you go back and say, well, we'd like this, we'd like this, we'd like this, then I think things are a little different. And I mean, our, our, I mean, I know because I've done the research that we want a women's clothing store downtown.

[00:44:32] We want a men's clothing store downtown. What's really interesting is I mentioned the, uh. The, um, the vintage stores. Yeah. Um, grand Rapids is also, I mean, we've, we've got about 10 in this store, and I think last year or five years ago, we may had one or two, um, record stores. Huh. Bookstores. These analog things are things that people are looking back for.

[00:44:52] I mean, uh, you know, I just was listening to a podcast on the way out here actually, and they were talking about how record stores had become such a big deal, um, back in like 2007. They did some, they, uh, the comic book, uh, stores in the, in the, in the country did a free comic book day. Mm-hmm. And record stores.

[00:45:10] Like they, at that time, records were almost to the point where they weren't even being put Purdue. And so a record store said, why don't we do a national free record store today? Mm-hmm. And then you get like, uh, you know, uh, Jack Smith outta Detroit who says, you know what? I'm gonna start pressing my own records and we're doing this.

[00:45:27] I mean, if you think about it next to Yester Dog, there's a vinyl alchemy that opened a couple years ago. Cool little store. That's fun. Della Records on, uh, Kalamazoo, same thing. Grandma tone's downtown and then Herm, who's got a vinyl solution. I mean that No, I, I messed the name up. Um, sorry, Herm. Um, but there's a record store that's been downtown for a long time, and I think what we're seeing is, and it's the same with kind of the vintage stores, is.

[00:45:51] People want quality stuff that's gonna last for a long time. And you know, the, the funny thing about a record is when you listen to a record and you listen to all 13 songs or 12 songs that are on that record, it's different than the playlist I have on my phone. Yeah, I'm sure it's the same for you too.

[00:46:06] And it's, so there's a little bit more that you learn about it. And I mean, I, one of the deals that made, you know, one of the things that made me like say I'm gonna marry this woman about my wife is we were at, uh, the sidebar downtown. You ever been to that cool little bar? Yep. Yeah. Well, they got a record player in there and they played this Rolling Stones record that you don't hear.

[00:46:25] It doesn't get a lot of airtime because it's got language that you're not gonna get on the radio. And I said, you know, this is such a great record. And for my birthday that year, my wife bought me a turntable and that record, now it's like. Okay, that's cool. And now I've got about 50 records that, I mean, I choose, you know, because these are the ones that I wanna listen to all the way through.

[00:46:44] Yeah. And we're seeing that. So, I mean, I, you we're seeing it in, I mean, if you look at national trends, these stores that I'm mentioning, even like plant stores, these are things that people are looking to have in their cities and um, well, it's like the bookstore you brought up, I think, what, I don't know the name.

[00:46:59] What's that bookstore that just opened down? Bridge Street? Celebrate. Celebrate. Yeah. Like, okay, you, you would've told me 5, 5, 6 years ago. Everyone's like, no, it's all on their iPad stuff. And no, they're coming back. Barnes and Noble just opened up at BeltLine app, or they're about ready to open. Mm-hmm. It's funny how all this stuff, like trends come back and my wife and I, we were, we go to like this little place in Tennessee where they had a record player and then afterwards we're like, we need one of these things.

[00:47:21] So we went and bought one. Well, you think about it like, we spend so much time on our screens. I mean, ironically, we nine, none of us have looked at a screen in the last, uh, 20, 30 minutes that we've been talking. But you know, by and large, I mean, the worst thing if you're, I see you're an Apple person. I mean, one of those worst, the worst things you see is on a Sunday morning where it says, Hey, your screen time was this much.

[00:47:43] And it's like, it's always the worst one I the church. I'm like, oh shoot. Like I feel a buzz. It's like a different buzz. And I'm like, tell me what, tell me how bad it was this week. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's crazy. On the back, on the, just outta curiosity, you brought up like zoning and different things that are affecting the city from a retail perspective.

[00:48:02] And Chris does a ton of retail, um, brokerage. What, what are some of those things, just outta curiosity that you're seeing affect people from going to downtown or making it challenging? Well, ju I think more just making it challenging. I think the city's done some good jobs, good job of it, but like for a while it was, okay, all of your, most of your ground floor has to be retail.

[00:48:22] I think the city's kind of taken a step back and said, okay, maybe we do allow some apartments or some form of office use and everything. 'cause I, I don't think every new development needs. All ground floor retail. Correct. You can't, at some point you can't force it. You can't put so much supply on there when there's not enough demand Sure.

[00:48:37] To sustain it. Well, and you also have to have a, a neighborhood that is walkable enough to make sure that that works. Yeah. I mean, I, uh, I'm not saying anything that you can't see when you walk down Monroe Center, but Monroe Center has a couple of things on that street that are, that make that connectivity a little difficult.

[00:48:57] Um, you got Rosa Parks. Yeah. You got the Grand Rapids Art Museum. You've got, uh, blue Cross. And you've got the police station. All of those things are things that don't connect you all the way through. But you know, you think about South Division. South Division was designed for retail. Retail, yeah. You look at East Town, you look at East Hills, you look at West, uh, east Fulton, these places were designed for retail.

[00:49:19] So we have to kind of lean into what we have and not, uh, you know, not look at what we can't do. And I think that's how, that's what we're seeing in a success. It'll be interesting. I would just rather the allow for array of array of different uses. I'm not saying like you put industrial building in a, in a retail space.

[00:49:35] 'cause it's like, hey, that's just not viable. That's not gonna work. I think it'll say he is done a better job of saying, Hey, let's get open, let's get creative with these ideas of how to utilize this space and how to activate it properly. I a thousand percent agree. Yeah. And I mean, and I think you, when you, when you think about Rosa Park Circle and, and so many cool events that they're doing there, I mean, like, uh, Tuesday nights, is that, do they still do the swing dancing at all?

[00:49:57] Oh, and there's 600 people that are down there for that. And if I'm a restaurant, I'm like saying. Here's what I'm gonna do for a grab and go for you. Or here are some easy ways to get in and I mean, um, mm-hmm. One of the things they've done downtown for the last few years that I really like is they've been doing this third Thursday Art Walk.

[00:50:17] So the Graham is open during that time. The, uh, the Kendall College has got their, is their galleries open? But all these other little spaces are open later. You know, make, you know, tell people when you're open. I mean, uh, one of the things, and I'm sure you'll agree with this 'cause of the 'cause your retail connections is I always tell businesses like, don't assume people know what you're selling.

[00:50:36] Yeah. And if you don't, if you're not marketing correctly, I'm, I'm not here to, I'm not here to like, to walk inside the story. Yeah. I mean, I, I want you, I mean, but like, uh, there are certain stores where their, their name is so obscure that, um, you don't understand what that is. I used to have an art gallery, it's called the Richard App Gallery.

[00:50:54] Not a very creative name, but it wor But it's because when I started, I started, it was called the Maie Maie Photographic. And I say that because nobody understood that word. Mm. It means your image In French, I thought I was being really cool 'cause I was 23 and I thought that was the way it worked. But people were like, imagery, imagery, imaginary lingerie.

[00:51:14] But they're also like, oh, it's richest place. And so I finally changed the name. And then what I also did with, with that was I said, you know what, um, we had, I had six large windows in front of my place. And I said, you know, we do, we, we do fine art sales, we do framing. Mm-hmm. We do restoration, we do events.

[00:51:31] And I, and I put literally put on the windows what we're doing, details. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We just put vinyl in all those things and it was such an easy investment and it was like, holy cow. Yeah. I mean, the other thing I would say to retailers too is that if you've got hours on your door and you are not open.

[00:51:46] You're doing the worst thing you can do for yourself. Yeah. 'cause if I walk up, if you say that you're open from 10 to six, and I, and I show up at 1115 and nobody's there, I'm not, I I'm not Come back. You're not gonna come back at some point. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and it's, and it's fair to say that. Yeah. You know, I mean, um, if you do need to close, I mean, and we all have extenuate extenuating circumstances.

[00:52:06] Use your social media, use your website, put a sign in the window that doesn't look like you used a Sharpie and took 30 seconds to do it. Yeah. But do it correctly. I mean, that's, it's okay to do that. I mean, like I said, never assume that people know what you're selling. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What, so like, what is your day to day role responsibility?

[00:52:26] 'cause uh, I mean, you know, obviously you know a ton about the retail and the travel and everyone coming into town and, but what, like, what is your. What, what does your day to day look like in general? Are you meeting with these retailers? Are you, I I probably meet with about 20 retailers a week or talk to about 20 retailers a week.

[00:52:45] Sometimes that number's larger, uh, but I also make it a point to go to business association meetings. Mm-hmm. As many as I can go to. I've been to three this week already. I've got two more, um, coming up and it's because the thing that it's, it's so. Obvious to me, and maybe it's different to other people, but like if, uh, you helped open, uh, that balloon place over in Yeah.

[00:53:07] Um, heights. Yeah. Um, the, the, the day before she opened, I, I invited her to the business association meeting. Mm-hmm. Because what happens is, like if you share, if you two are sharing, uh, a wall between two businesses and you don't know each, what each other's doing, you're not helping each other. Um, you know, the, the best thing you can do is say, well, oh yeah, this guy's got, um, a custom framing business and this person's got a really cool boutique.

[00:53:32] And to be able to advertise with each other at the same time. Yeah. Makes sense. And then the other thing is too, is we have a lot of different events going on throughout the city. I mean, Creston has their events, east Town has their events. When we get to talk about those things together, it becomes a much stronger way for, I mean, it, it brings more people into the area.

[00:53:52] I mean, I, uh, when I had my business. I wasn't so concerned. My biggest concern was getting people in the door. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily selling the work. I wasn't, I don't consider myself a very good salesperson, but I'm a good storyteller. And I can tell you about the artist, that's why I asked about the pieces behind you.

[00:54:09] Um, the more that you can talk about the products that you have, once people are in front of you, the, uh, the better chance of number one, them buying, but also having them refer somebody to say, mm-hmm. Oh my gosh, you should go check out this new store over on Cherry Street. Well, I think Wealthy Street's done a really cool job.

[00:54:24] They, they're so business association, like, what's that Holiday shop? The holiday shop Hop it goes, is that it or is that Yeah, it's, it's, it's the Uptown Shop Hop Uptown. That's it. And so Uptown, uh, I'm sure you two know, but for those who are listening, uh, it's Wealthy Street, east Town. East Hills and East Fulton.

[00:54:41] Okay. So what they do is, I mean, that, that, I was just at an East Hills Business Association Association meeting yesterday morning. They were talking about the shop app, um, they have trolleys that go through. That's cool. Those neighborhoods, they have, uh, different, you know, they have like different music going on.

[00:54:57] Caroler is doing this. I mean, that's like a huge day for these businesses. It is, yeah. And it's because everybody understands that there's that sprint between Thanksgiving and Christmas where. You wanna do this? And so it's always the first Thursday of December. And what's really cool about that is you're, you're close enough into this retail state space where you, you might not go out on Black Friday.

[00:55:21] And to be perfectly honest, anybody that's listening don't do that. Yeah. Don't, because they're selling a lot of the big box stores aren't selling stuff that you can't get anywhere else, any other time or Amazon. Yeah. I mean, that's the b of my existence is I, you know, I mean, to see those trucks on the street, and I mean, what I always joke to myself about is, isn't it really nice how these, uh, delivery trucks are nice enough to put on their hazards to show you that they're doing something illegal is not great.

[00:55:47] That's good. So are, are you, you said, you mean like 20 businesses? Are those all existing businesses then, or like businesses? Uh, existing, but I'm also like, based off of like the, the thing I said about the QR code, the what do you want here? Yeah. I'm sending that information to businesses and saying, Hey, guess what?

[00:56:04] People are looking for your type of business, your type of, in my city. And this is a, it's it's factual stuff. Yeah. And I mean, I can show you the addresses, I can show the data and um, you know, it's kind of boring to look at it 'cause it's all just in a spreadsheet. Yeah. But, uh, you know, to me, I, I ask very simple questions.

[00:56:20] What do you want here? How, how often are you down in, in this space? Um, what's your age? I don't ask, I don't ask anything else. Yeah. And um, you know, the nice thing about it is I'm getting people that are, I'm downtown all the time. I'm downtown once a week. I'm visiting from Spokane. And, you know, that's cool.

[00:56:36] They, all of that is relevant data as far as I'm concerned. So how do you navigate those, like, those conversations for reaching out to new tenants? Because like. Monica works for Rockford, right? Rockford owns a handful of buildings throughout there. Like for, for me personally, I know there's guys who do it, like Max and a handful of other brokers who are very successful and also own real estate.

[00:56:55] Or for myself, I represent a handful of retailers. I'm like, I just can't have any basis into it. Like, I can't any equity. 'cause I, I would feel the conflict of like, Hey, I should put Smoothie King in my building, as opposed to like, here's another spot you should put 'em. So how do, how do you navigate that?

[00:57:12] Uh, it's tough to be agnostic on that. Yeah. Because there's a, a lot of people that have investments in downtown. Yeah. But I, I. Part of the thing that I've loved about doing this, uh, this thing with the QR codes is I'm just dispelling data. This is what I have and this is what people are looking for. And, um, that, you know, makes it, that makes it a little easier.

[00:57:34] I mean, I, I know that a smoothie place downtown, another grab and go, or two options, uh, fresh produce in, in our downtown. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Things that people are clamoring for. Um, but, you know, the, the other thing I think is, is we have to work with building owners that. Have to look at a long-term investment.

[00:57:52] If you've got a property that's been open for 18 months, 24 months, um, maybe you want to incentivize that a little bit. Mm-hmm. And say, you know what, we'll, uh, we'll tear you up over 36 months so that it's a little easier for you to move in. And then kind of, and we'll, I mean, I understand, I understand the pains of what retail is and, and actually what, yeah, you owned it.

[00:58:14] Yeah. And I, and or, but I also understand from the, from the ownership standpoint, from the property manager standpoint, from the broker standpoint, I understand how there's a, it's a different game, but the idea is let's all use the same information to get people to come see what we're doing. And I mean, you know, we have a few spaces in our downtown, there's a couple of large vacant restaurant spaces where I look at 'em and I'm like.

[00:58:37] Man, that dog's not gonna hunt because that's a big space. Yeah, yeah. You know, and until we get more people on the streets in some of the spaces that are not working, and I think we'll be there in probably 36 months. Yeah. We, we have to kind of be, you know, do you want something or do you want nothing?

[00:58:52] Yeah. In that space. That's the hard one. Which project of this, of the six are you most excited about? And what, what, I guess when I say that, which one do you think will have the most change to the downtown Grand Rapids? That's a great question. Um, I would say, you know, the first one that's coming off the gate is gonna change us a lot.

[00:59:14] And that's gonna be the amate I, that it looks so cool when you're dropping down that curve asks, like right there, and you're like, well, holy cow, that's gonna be loud, that's gonna be fun. I make it, I make it a point to go down market. To check it out. Yeah. To see how that is. Yeah. But you think about it.

[00:59:29] The connectivity of what's going to happen with that is there's going to be more retail around there, there's going to be more restaurants around there. Mm-hmm. And then we're gonna be feeding that in right From, from the Fulton and Market project where there's gonna be another, you know, if, if if you, if you want to do numbers, if it's uh, 700 living quarters in that space, even if we do 1.5 of that, that's a thousand people.

[00:59:49] And you're talking on that space. You're talking the old Charlie's crab site. When you see that big, which they should bring Charlie's crab back. My father-in-law would, like, my wife and I used to go there and like do computer work 'cause they had like a great, uh, happy what of Cool was for that? But you think about it, there's gonna be two restaurants probably that are gonna be overlooking that river in that same space.

[01:00:13] And you're gonna be, there's gonna be a walkway taking you to the amphitheater from there. I That's cool. It's going to change. That's gonna change the landscape. And you thought 20, they're 18 months out before they. What did you, did you have a timeline on that one or was that, I don't have a timeline, and it's really one of those things that, um, I want to be respectful because I understand how that is there.

[01:00:35] That's, that's more of a complicated project than the, than the anything else. That's such a big scale and it's like, okay. I would argue that's one of the most prime spots in our city. Like, well, like I said earlier, right on the river, I'm literally gonna change our skyline. Yeah. We're putting three large buildings in there.

[01:00:50] Is there a main driver for like, tenant? Have they, they haven't announced anything, but I'm assuming to be doing Tower. There's gotta be a main office user, but I don't think they announced a name. They have not announced it yet. Well, what they've done is who is it? Uh, honestly, if Moxie Real Estate Group, if I take in 50, if I, I'll tell you what, if I knew who it was, I'd be happy to tell you, but I do, I can tell you that they have enough space to have another business, like an Acrisure come to downtown Grand Rapids, which I think is amazing.

[01:01:18] That's a great story to tell. And then, uh. You know, a hotel's gonna be in that space as well. And so, I mean, it's going to feed for all of the entertainment that our city's doing. I mean, if the three of us are staying at the hotel that's gonna be at Fulton and Market, but we wanna go to a, the soccer stadium, it's like a 10 minute walk.

[01:01:34] Yeah. I mean, it's not like a big deal at all. In fact, it's, it's easier to walk than it would be to, to, to get transportation over there. How committed, how committed, I mean, obviously they've got the amphitheater, naming and everything, but as they gear up for their IPO Accure, I mean, how committed are they to the city of Grand Rapids as they continue to grow and they just put up a second tower?

[01:01:56] Okay. I mean, it's, uh, I mean they, uh, they're, they're committed to our downtown. I mean, you think about where Acrisure has got their name. Sure. La. Pittsburgh. Yep. Grand Rapids. Yeah, but our home, their home is here. It's pretty exciting when a popular business moves to a new location, especially when they come to your city.

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[01:02:40] I'm embarrassed to say. And to whoever listens, but like what's the tie to Asure into Grand Rapids? Like how did they, I think, end up choosing their base? I think they started here, didn't they? Uh, they started in the Caledonia area. Okay. They did. But um, there was a lot of conversation about getting them into downtown and then, um Gotcha.

[01:02:56] What that little area is doing with Studio Park and with the, uh, with the apartments that are there. And then with Acrisure. That's cool. I mean, it's a great, really awesome little incubator and I was, um, I've been, I've helped bring several businesses into the studio park area and I feel that there's some real strength going on in there.

[01:03:14] Yeah. And then when they opened that, I was there for the ribbon cutting for the apartments there, and. Uh, what the LOEs family has done in that space is they've made a really kind of a sustainable place. They've got a killer, uh, uh, workouts facility in there. They've got this awesome deck where they've got, you know, where you can, they've got several grills.

[01:03:35] They've got a community room. They got pickle ball right, too in the condos. Um, I don't know if they do. Is that, how are any idea how the condos are selling in that? I don't know. I have no idea. Uh, they're doing really well and they've got a good property manager that, uh, quite honestly used to work for my wife at Rockford.

[01:03:53] Okay. And, um, you know, she's, she's doing, I think it's. Those are the kind of spaces, in my opinion, that kind of sell themselves because there's, it's, there's great views. Yep. 300 can't, 60 degrees, lots going on close to an Andel. Oh my gosh. It's, it's everywhere. Well, what, what a fun project for jd. 'cause that was like right at COVID.

[01:04:11] Mm-hmm. I'm sure. Like he's getting financing and they're like, you want to build a movie theater? Like, are you kidding me? Like, we'll tell you, we'll finance the apartment, but we're not gonna touch the movie theater. And then now it's like how much it's changed now, now that like, I feel like movie theaters are back and like, I saw some report where they kind of said, Hey, they're gonna make a $5 million investment in Rivertown.

[01:04:28] Yep. And she's like, we're gonna be back pre pandemic levels for sales. Well, I, I, I just read somewhere where, I mean, that was the only time in the history of, uh, what the locs have put together, that they closed record. They, they closed those places. And I mean, yeah. You talk about, um, the investments that they have throughout the state.

[01:04:47] Uh, that was a tough gig. And they actually opened a studio park. Like in November of 19, and then, you know, everything got shut down. The world shut down. Yeah. And I mean, uh, there's, there's something good about, you know, from, from my learning curve that, uh, has become different because I didn't know a lot.

[01:05:07] I mean, like I said, there was no roadmap for success for what my business looked like, but I was thrown into this fray of how does this work? And I mean, and a lot of the restaurateurs in our city are like good friends of mine, like long time friends of mine. And, uh, to, to be able to say, I mean, I have one restaurateur who she called me and she's like, rich, I don't know how I'm gonna make it.

[01:05:27] Hmm. We have, you know, we have a very limited, uh, they're just a dinner only place. And she's like, we need like 84% occupancy every night that we're open to make it, man. And I was like, you know what? You're a creative person. You're gonna be able to get through this and shout out to you, Jenna, that's you. Um, but you know, she.

[01:05:46] She pivoted things she did, and she's cool, been successful. And then, uh, yeah, we have, I've, I'm part of a, a really cool group. It's called the Michigan Restaurant Promise, that we actually kind of put together during 2021, where it was like to the, you know, to the governor and to the people that are enacting these laws.

[01:06:04] We can do good work together and we're gonna, we're gonna be responsible. Yeah. We're gonna be smart. And with all of the changes that have happened just in the last few months with the earned sick time with minimum wage, wage, wage with inflation, and, you know, possibility, what these tariffs are gonna do, there's conversation going on all the time between these really top tier restaurateurs saying, this is what we're doing, this is how we're changing.

[01:06:26] Yeah. And I think that's how a city is successful, is we're, I mean. They take the competition part of the deal because you're not gonna eat tacos every night. No. You're gonna go or you're not. I mean, activity breeds activity. Yeah. But if, you know, you think of, you, you, you guys mentioned Bridge Street, um, you know, bridge Street's got solid all up and down.

[01:06:44] I mean, from Sogar to the highway and just wait until that soccer stadium gives me like a little like Wrigleyville vibe down there. Like it could, yeah, like especially once you add the stadium in, I'm like, once the stadium's in it. Yeah. Yeah. And they start doing, I'm assuming they'll do like the march down to the stadium with the beating the drums and stuff like that.

[01:07:00] Right down Bridge Street would be cool. Well, when you look at, you know, rapid River that just opened, they've got live music going on there. And then, uh, turnstiles does the same thing. I mean, if there's something that I could, that selfishly I wanna see more of in our city, it's live music. Yeah. Uh, that type of nightlife brings dinner, brings drinks afterwards.

[01:07:21] It brings, it brings a more vibe and vitamin to our city. It's cool. My one pet peeve is AC Hotel does not need a DJ down there. If you've ever been down there No. At that hotel. We used to grab drinks down there, then have like a DJ coming out. I'm like, I kinda just wanna have a conversation. Can you like, stop playing the dj?

[01:07:35] Like you, you can go to Eve upstairs. I, well I, uh, I like live music. I just can't say the DJ out there like eight or the DJs. Yeah. I, uh, I think that's, uh, it's gotta be the right space for the right thing. Yeah. I mean, and that's what all kinds of music is. I mean, uh, you know, you go to Pyramid Scheme because you know you're gonna get your face off and that's okay.

[01:07:55] And, uh, but you know, the stash you can go to inside the intersection and you might, and you get to get a small, smaller, more intimate venue. Sure. Well that's, I hope like g the old gr noir space becomes, 'cause I'm like, that was a really cool, like. Spot. It was a cool spot. That was a cool atmosphere and everything.

[01:08:10] Well, I think what we're gonna see a lot more of is that, uh, these one dimensional places. I mean, and I'm not, I love gi uh, Shaan and Nadia, were are amazing people. Yep. But, um, just a wine bar, just a beer place, um, there's a limit to that. Mm-hmm. Hmm. I mean, people, people aren't drinking as much beer. I can tell you that because I mean, one of the first times you and I met, we met over at New Holland.

[01:08:32] Yeah. And I always, I I probably haven't had three beers in two, two in probably three years. Yeah. I just, uh, you know, it's a, it's just a shift. Like when you see beer sales and everything, everything's just like, seems to be taken a step back on that. Yeah. A ton of, yeah. A ton of friends and, and like, people in my friend group and stuff, they're like, yeah, I haven't drank for a year.

[01:08:50] And you're like, oh, that's great. Yeah. Like, it's not even a, it's not even like, whoa, that's crazy. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Everything okay. Like, yeah. It's just like, I mean, selfishly I'm gonna be a bourbon person till I die, but I, uh, yeah. I, uh, I just met with, uh. A company that's, uh, out of Austin that's actually, uh, a cocktail place that's looking at Grand Rapids because they're seeing Mammoth, they're seeing Eastern Kill.

[01:09:14] You look at Drip drop, you look at, uh, uh, sidebar that I just mentioned. Yeah. We got these cool places downtown and it's, uh, I mean, uh, night watch over in, uh. At, uh, Monroe and Fulton. I mean, there's a lot of these cool places that Yeah, they, they may sell, they mail, they may sell beers as well. But, you know, it's a kind of a different vibe.

[01:09:34] Yeah. And you know, I'm, can we bring a speakeasy into downtown? That's why I want an actual one. I, I like the one with Amway, but it reminds me more of like a code kind of feel where I'm like, they have one in Vegas where it's a really cool like barbershop. It's actually activated and then you have to go into the janitor's closet.

[01:09:50] And then, oh, that's funny. And make a phone call. That's cool. There was a really cool conversation about a space that would be smoking for that, for that, that just never kind of materialized. But I, I can't imagine that that's not going to happen. Yeah. I mean, I think we all want to go to places we can't. I mean, at least I can say that about myself.

[01:10:08] And it's places where you have an experience like, oh, for sure. It's more that I feel like that's more than ever kind of like you, you brought it up, but like, just having one dimensional is so hard. Like you, you go there for the experience more than anything else. I, I think that's why we go out to eat.

[01:10:21] Yeah. How, how is the city's growth? Is it above normal like growth? I mean, obviously we're growing for Michigan, we're the fastest growing city in Michigan, but how does that stack up to, um, some of the other. Cities across the country? Like are we, I I think that we are positioned, are we in the mix or are we, I I think we're positioned for being one of the best cities in the country.

[01:10:46] And I don't say that because my job tells me to say that. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true. I mean, the, the six projects that we talked about Yep. Mm-hmm. Are literally going to change our city. And, uh, you know, you mentioned, uh, there, there's the, the, the investment that in the Meyer Sports Complex mm-hmm.

[01:11:02] That's growing. Yeah. Um, you know, we are seeing, you know, you talk about women's sports, um, we've had big 10 basketball at the, uh, at, uh, the Van Ana arena. These things are gonna continue to move forward. I mean, I, you can see it in the, uh, you can just see it in the bones of the city. And, um, and Joe Chamberlain last week, I think he said like.

[01:11:22] The original plan for LMCU was 35 million, and he is like, we're probably gonna be 50, 55 million. Holy cow. By, by the time we get done whole like project and everything, I would love to see LMCU downtown. Uh, oh my gosh. I mean, if I could push a LA put a lasso around that and pull that downtown, I'd do that.

[01:11:37] And I, I know I always heard rumors that when there was that fire, a couple people were like. Just maybe let it burn. Let it all burn out. Well, the the reality is, is Grand Rapids can't really invest in the white caps because it's not in, it's a Comstock, it's not in Grand Rapids. I mean, that might as well be alpena and I mean, you know.

[01:11:54] Yes. Do we want them, do we wanna support them? Absolutely. Yeah. But the, you know, that's not the way the money works, you know? I know. We're happy they're in Kent County. Yeah. And I, I actually love their games. I mean, I'm a, I'm a Cubs fan and I'd rather go to a Cubs game any day of the week, but I love that we have something cool like that in our city.

[01:12:12] I, it's great. I don't know for the kids. I have a 20 month old son, I'm like, I don't know where he is gonna run around. 'cause they have that grass area that there that's not the stands. Yeah. That nice little I know. Now I'm like, okay, where am I gonna take them? Yeah. They're fun games though. Yeah. That's a, yeah.

[01:12:26] So, but on the, on the growth. Are you guys feel, are you seeing, obviously it's positive growth right now for Grand Rapids, but is it competitive to other cities across the country, or is it flat or, what I'm seeing is, you know, you look at economic impact numbers if you go on the Grand Rapids Cities website to the economic development page.

[01:12:46] Mm-hmm. And if you go from 2021 to 2024, those numbers are on a really steady rise. I mean, 20, 30% number, uh, uh, you know, growth. And that's not, that's not traditional, I don't believe anywhere. And, uh, you know, the nice thing about Grand Rapids is. We are a spread out city, but we have a lot of property that we can redevelop.

[01:13:06] And I love the idea that we've kind of relaxed some of the rules mm-hmm. On some ADUs mm-hmm. And a few things like that. I mean, I, I think that makes sense to, uh, you know, to, to develop more density in our city. And I mean, there are some people that are gonna disagree with me, and those are people that probably live in the neighborhood that don't want things to change, but Yep.

[01:13:26] Um, we need more housing, I think. Yeah. I think Factory Yards is a good example of that too, of the flexibility because it's such a. I mean, it's a pretty raw development overall with a mix of, there's still gonna be industrial in that corridor to the housing, to the retail, to, yeah, connecting into the city and activating that.

[01:13:43] The, the trail project that I talked about is gonna literally go right behind there. Oh, and if you think about, and you think about train track, and you think about across the street. Um, you've got a soccer, you've got a soccer field. Mm-hmm. So will there be a soccer, will there be a soccer store at, uh, at Factory Yards, I'm guessing.

[01:14:00] Yes. Yeah. And I'm part of, I'm helping kind of architect that stuff. Um, you know, the other thing is, is there a skateboard shop across the street? Are we gonna do something with that? Because if we don't. We're missing opportunities. I mean, you take what's around you and say, let's how, let's, let's, let's amplify this even more.

[01:14:15] And, uh, you know, that food hall concept is such a cool thing. It's not a food court. And I mean, if you talk to the guys at, from factory yards, they'll correct you every time. But the idea that you can have a smaller footprint as a restaurant, but you don't have, you know, you don't have all the extenuating costs for that, so you don't have as big a staff.

[01:14:33] Yep. Um, that's, how big is that space? Are they thinking for the, oh my goodness. It's, um, because you can't do like another downtown market per se, right? Like, uh, it's, it's designed completely different. Different. So there's gonna be a kind of a bar in one space, um, that's gonna, there's gonna be one place that serves alcohol and then there's gonna be 13, uh, restaurant Bay within that space.

[01:14:53] Cool. That's cool. And what I love about. The way that their focus is, is they're, uh, they're saying what's different? You know, can we put a Thai place in here? Can we put an Ethiopian place in here? Can we put a, a soul food place in here? I mean, that to me is a really cool idea so that the three of us want to go out for lunch or dinner, and we don't, we're not limited to the menu that I know.

[01:15:13] And that's, that's been my big pushback for like Grand Rapids as a whole, as a city. I'm like, we don't need another meat and potatoes restaurant. Let, let's get some variety, some some different stuff coming in, in and out. The mar and the market's been cool for some of that too. But then it's like what you talked about too, of like that connectivity, it almost feels like disjointed right now from the, as some of that real estate's turning over recently too.

[01:15:35] I'm kind of excited to see what happens with that in that little corridor too, that up into the park. Yeah. I mean, it's, uh. It's just far enough away where it's not doing anything. But I will say that, that Chris parental market has really kind of changed the way that Oh, cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, and I mean, I, um, I did a, I do these first of the month videos that kind of talk about things that are happening in the city.

[01:15:58] And, uh, in December I got, I got to do that with our city manager and Mimi from the downtown market. And, uh, you know, half a million people go in there in a, in a 30 day stretch. I mean, that's. Really impressive. And one of the things that we're looking at doing is, um, for, for the, for a small business Saturday this year, we had a trolley that went through, uh, that went through the downtown businesses that also went to the downtown market.

[01:16:24] And so that was a really nice incubator. And one of the things that we're talking about, and I hope my DGRI friends aren't gonna get yet mad at me about this, but we're talking about doing that every Saturday during the holidays and, uh, you know, cool. Yeah. Invite people to see what's different in our city.

[01:16:37] I mean, yeah, a lot of times there's this misconception where it's like, oh, downtown's dangerous. It's not, no, it's hard to park. It's not. Yeah. There's, I mean, get in and see what's going on and then, and then make a, a, an assessment from what you see, not what you think, you know. Forgive my, is that, is it, was that the one that was like, they, they have little shanties and everything and little business little.

[01:16:56] That was great. Yeah. Oh yeah. They're cool. I got some cool, like Detroit lions. I had some sweater girl there who was making a variety of custom made sweaters and stuff. I hope we can continue to buy. That's a great lion stuff because I'll tell you what, it's uh, it was fun to watch them this year. Yeah, it's gonna be a big, big rebuilding year.

[01:17:11] It'll be interesting to see. No, not rebuilding. No, no. You don't think so? I think they've added some talent. It, it's just about. Are you gonna, I mean, they lost their offensive and defensive coordinator, but did you see that picture of Ben Johnson? Like day one? Yeah. Like four president days later, he's like, hasn't had any sleeve.

[01:17:28] He's like, oh man. He looked like he's president for four years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, uh, I, I, I am pretty sure he's a pretty tense dude to live with. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. I think I'm, I'm pretty excited to see, and, and all of those things that are happening in downtown also lifts everyone else up too around it and surrounding it.

[01:17:48] And I've always said that you, our downtown is so important because it's like, okay, that's what everyone sees before they go to some of the other suburbs. And I, I do like how easily accessible our city is. I mean, we talk about rush hour in the grand scheme of things. It maybe last for 15, 20, 25 minutes.

[01:18:03] Oh my gosh. Like, we're, we're, we're fine. Yeah. The, the only thing I'd love to see in downtown is, it's funny 'cause we bring people different retailers into Grand Rapids all the time, and they're always like. So, where's your major employer? Why, why, why don't they have anything in downtown? Like why isn't Steelcase, why doesn't, you know Meyer Amway?

[01:18:19] It's like, okay, Corwell Health. Yeah, yeah. Tap, yeah. They're the biggest, uh, biggest employer in the state. I mean, it's a great story to tell now, but for, well, how years? It was like, okay. They're like, you guys have such a cool downtown. Bring one of those guys downtown. It's a whole billion dollar businesses.

[01:18:33] And again, Down's, Acrisure. I mean, they're, they are changing that industry. Mm-hmm. They, they, I, I mean, uh, the last time I heard, uh, their CEO talk, it was, I think they acquired like 119 agencies in one year, and they're continuing to, to going down this road. And it's, I, I think one of the things that they do that makes it work is that these businesses can contain a little bit of their independence, but they're under this umbrella of, of a safe, of, of a safer net.

[01:19:03] So, yes, do we think we need, you know, I mean, and, and like I said, blue Cross. They just signed a, they just re-upped for a, a 10 year lease. I think they might be in year two of a 10 year lease for downtown. So we have a few, but we definitely need more. And I mean the, that market, uh, Fulton Market Project will have another large business in downtown.

[01:19:23] Well, and we're fortunate enough to have Oops. Yeah, we're fortunate enough as well to have, um, you know, public universities down there as well too. Oh, yeah. With having Ken though, with having Grand Rapids Community College with Grand Valley making a large investment to the west side, they keep pushing more and more into downtown.

[01:19:38] It's, yeah. It's a, and you look at like. You know, when, when, you know, you think about Corwell and Banff and Michigan State, Banff is unreal too. Yeah. That, that whole corridor in the Monroe North is going through this change right now. I mean, there, all of the billing for Corwell Health's gonna be in that space.

[01:19:57] Um, that's a massive, massive, uh, you know, piece. And, and you know, the truth is, is healthcare's not gonna, we're not gonna, we're not, I mean, you talk about a recession fruit business. I mean, healthcare is going to be Yeah. I mean, it's gonna continue to, to thrive. And I mean, you know, Banff is one of those stories.

[01:20:12] Mm-hmm. Like you said, it's like, I mean, they're literally curing cancer. Yeah. And then you've got Michigan State going all the way up the hill there. I mean, uh, VI and everything. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's amazing to see the, what, the growth that that business has done in three or four years. So, I mean, we're, we're, I believe we're in a really amazing space right now.

[01:20:33] And I mean, what I tell people all the time is like. We should be running around with our hair on fire, but 'cause we have all these generational things coming our way. But the crazy thing is, is so tough right now from the development side of things to do new stuff without all the incentive stacks that you were talking about earlier, where like to see a lot of these large scale projects happening now and a tough time to develop is like you probably will, you know, you see some easing of interest rates and all of that coming.

[01:21:02] It, it might be light your hair on fire, let's go get downtown. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Type activity. But, but you know, you think about, uh. Yeah. If we're gonna just, you know, 'cause the, uh, amphitheater's the closest Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity right around that space to do things. And I mean, if, if you can tell me, you know, I'm just gonna throw out an arbitrary number that let's say the amphitheater brings a $50 million positive economic impact to that area.

[01:21:26] Um, if I'm gonna open a restaurant, if I'm gonna open a, a retail, if I'm gonna open a, a, a, you know, housing over there, that's a number that the bank's gonna wanna talk to you about too. You say, you know what, this is how many people are coming to this neighborhood. It makes, it may make it a safer thing.

[01:21:42] And I do agree that we're seeing interest rates that are, that wanna come down a little bit. Mm-hmm. I mean, we're never gonna be, uh, you know, when we refinanced, I mean, we were from our house three. No, it was, we're down, we're under that. And I mean, it's funny like last, not last summer, but the summer before, somebody.

[01:22:00] Approached my wife about, you know, they said, Hey, we'd like to buy, maybe buy your house. And I'm like, well, where are we gonna go? Yeah. Where are we gonna go for what we're paying now? I mean, prices went up, interest rates went up. Yeah. I wanna be in my house till I can't walk up the stairs.

[01:22:16] That's awesome. Any other, any other questions or nos? Thank you. Thoughts. Appreciate it. Yeah, this was easy and I appreciate it. I mean, um, what's the best way to get in touch with the Air Connect Simple man. So Richard de grand rapids.org or just, do you wanna talk to me? Just find some cool coffee shop?

[01:22:31] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I literally, I, I do this every Monday. I do first, second, and third ward. I try to, to move things around and, um, but yeah, I mean, I want to talk about our city because that's, I'm so immersed in what's going on and I'm so fortunate because, you know, I have essentially. Three investment, three investors in me.

[01:22:52] But you know, I get to know about DGRI. Yesterday I was at, uh, commission night out talking about all the construction projects. And then with the Grand Rapids Chamber, we've got a really dynamic group there and we've got the best, uh, you know, we've got the best, uh, government affairs team in the state.

[01:23:08] And I say that without any question. I mean, you look at the 100 and a hundred initiative that's going on, a hundred housing, a hundred, uh, home homeless people in a hundred days. I mean, these are real projects that we're kind of looking at and saying, how do we, how do we grow? How do we manage growth?

[01:23:24] Because as we grow as a city, we're gonna grow in every aspect of it. One more question, how. Homeless population. How do you, how do we navigate that? How do we, do you feel like we're getting better or where do you feel like we're going, we're going in that direction? Uh, well, like I said, the 100 in a hundred project I think is a really cool idea.

[01:23:44] Um, but, you know, getting smaller units, working with, um, being really intentional about what we wanna say. See there is, is it, and I mean, and the numbers aren't as big as. What, what our perception of that is. Yeah. Um, you know, but, but it also like acting, you know, talking about activating that south division stretch, like that's a, that's an issue like a lot of people.

[01:24:10] I can't imagine that Yeah. You're bringing, uh, a national retailer down there that they're gonna be excited about that corridor with that too. And it's, it's a tough conversation. Mm-hmm. I don't know what the answer is. It's, it's uncomfortable because it's like, okay, we have a community that cares so much about the individuals Yep.

[01:24:25] And wants to be there, but also is like, how do, how do we navigate this? 'cause we want flourishing downtown. Well, I, I, you know, one of the things that we know for a fact is that the more activist space is, um, the, the less that we see mm-hmm. Some of that nefarious intent, and I'm not saying that. All houseless people are.

[01:24:43] Yeah, of course. Yep. But I think what we need to do is concentrate on how do we build a more dynamic downtown? And a lot of, I think the work that's gonna be there is gonna take care of that, but at the same time, we have to take care of ev everybody. Mm-hmm. That's, that's just the facts. Yeah. Yeah. No. Cool.

[01:25:01] Cool. Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Great. Alright guys. Thank you. Appreciate it.