Splitting Holidays: How to Navigate Traditions After Divorce

In this episode, we tackle the often tricky subject of holidays post-divorce, with practical advice just in time for the holiday season. From Halloween to Christmas, Julie Potts discusses the challenges of sharing holidays, the common mistakes people make, and why it's crucial to keep the focus on the kids. With personal anecdotes and experienced insights, this episode offers tips on creating new traditions, avoiding unnecessary conflict, and managing custody schedules during the holidays. Whether it's finding a balance for Thanksgiving or letting go of Halloween disputes, this episode will help you navigate the holiday season stress-free.

Show Notes:

Learn more about Julie Potts, Esq on her website https://juliepottsesq.com

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Please remember that this podcast should not be considered legal advice, and you should always consult your own attorney if you have questions or need clarifications about your specific situation.

This episode of Lawfully After Ever was produced and edited by Emily Murphy.

Transcript

 So this is our holiday  special, if you will, because tomorrow is October 1st.

my goodness.

So good idea to talk about the holidays because this can be, Easy and it can be really hard. .  Number one, holidays, you're going to share them. A lot of people don't like that. But holidays when you're separated or divorced are going to be shared. I've had people come in and say things like well, we always did this when we were together. So I'll use my household for an example. Growing up, Christmas Eve was a bigger day in my house because, I don't even know why, but it was.

We would have Christmas Eve, my mom would make a big dinner, and of course on Christmas morning we'd open the presents, but the family gathered on Christmas Eve. So, and if, and Steve's family was usually Christmas Day, so it worked out well. We would go to my family for Christmas Eve and his on Christmas Day.

So if I was getting a divorce and I walked in and said, this is what I want to happen, I want to have every Christmas Eve and he can have every Christmas Day, the answer is going to be, unless he agrees. So obviously as long as you guys agree, that's fine. But unless he agreed, that wasn't happening because you're going to share.

So in Pennsylvania, at least in Chester County our norm for Christmas, for example, is noon on Christmas Eve to noon on Christmas Day with one.  Noon on Christmas Day to the day after at noon, and they alternate. So that's kind of the norm. So holidays can be easy if people are just like, all right, split it down the middle and go, or it can be a big fight.

 Let's talk about the basics. Big three that are left in 2024. And then I'll throw in one of my other pet peeves, which is birthdays. So next up Halloween, this is how I feel about Halloween. It should never be in a custody order.  That's not just my feeling, that's the court.

 The courts do not list Halloween as a holiday. So if you're going into court and you're looking at the standard custody form, they don't list Halloween. Nor should they. A lot of people want to say, well, we'll just go together.  You can't . really require you two to do trick or treating together.

In a perfect world, sure, if you guys can get along so well as to trick or treat with your kids together, even better than ever having to deal with it. But the reason, and I can't say this is what the court thinks per se, because honestly it doesn't really come up all that often in the courtroom because most practitioners know not to bring it up,  But the reason I suggest not to bring it up is because what happens when you have Halloween as a point of contention is it becomes about you and not about the kids.

Your kids should not have to worry about getting to dad's on time or mom's on time and where's my costume and where is this and  whatever. Let the day be about the kids.  Because it will end at some point. I mean, although my 15 year olds. But yeah, they're going to, it's going to end. Let it fall where it falls.

 Some years you're going to get it. Some days the other person's going to get it, but it's needs to be about the kids. 

Can I just interject and say  If you still have little kids and haven't gone through this yet, Halloween is like an October long event now. So if you can't do the trick or treating, you can probably do about a hundred trunk or treats.

You can worry about the parades at school. You can be the one that goes and takes the pictures. So I think maybe if you're a newer parent and you haven't gone through this yet with your kids in the 2020s, there's plenty of time to celebrate Halloween with your kids and give them lots of candy. And that day itself is almost like the end.



 The other part is that, you know, eventually, I don't know exactly how old, I wanna say like. Nine or 10. Like they, they drop you like a hot potato. 

They want to go with their friends around the neighborhood. And if you're fortunate enough to live in a neighborhood like ours, it's safe to let your kids do that. 

They rush home from school, you get them changed, you try to force feed them some pizza so that they have not just candy in their stomachs.

And yes, they run away and you go back and hand out candy and then they go to bed and then they go to school the next day usually.

, my suggestion, if you're dealing with, you know, thinking ahead, take Halloween out of it.

You're going to get it some years. The other person's going to get it some years. If you get along so well that you can do it together, great. Take a roadie and take a walk down the street with your ex and, you know, try to enjoy the moment. I say the roadie because that's what most parents do. Yeah.

At least that I've seen. The two bigger ones that are left Thanksgiving and Christmas. So I touched on Christmas briefly, but I'll fill in a little bit more, but let's go to Thanksgiving. 

It's funny. I was just away this past weekend with my two law school besties we were in Florida    , my one friend, she is married. Her, her husband has two children from a prior marriage and she was saying that they have to split the day.

So they both, they live in Pittsburgh about 20 minutes away. So they split the day. So half is with one and half is with the other. And she was just saying like, what a pain in the ass, because she was talking about going, I think she brought up going to So if anybody knows what nemocolon is, it's It's a very nice swanky place out in central Pennsylvania.

They filmed one of the seasons of The Bachelor there. Oh. I think when the mansion burned down in California. Ah. 

Nemekola's beautiful. It's like, it's

fancy fancy.

It is fancy fancy. Yeah. So, that's an example of like, splitting the day sounds like a great idea in theory.

On the flip side, you know, think about it long term. Think about it practically.  I always tell people, don't pay me my hourly rate to figure out your holiday schedule. Seriously. Just split it down the middle, meaning alternate it, not literally down the middle, and you guys can always agree outside of the order, but don't waste your attorney's fees on me picking your holidays.

Some people, They don't like that. Or some people say they'll just do the day and then if I know or I Ask for whatever reason if I don't know like hey, is your do you have family in town?  And I you know go back to Pittsburgh. Someone said no my family's in Pittsburgh I'm like, well, why don't we then instead of just making it alternating the day?

Like you get the full day this year and the other the next year make it the full weekend, right? So make it Wednesday to Sunday and then you alternate but the You need to know that the next year the other person's gonna have and that's a big point. It's This is tit for tat. Okay, so if one person if the court's getting involved They're tit for tatting you get one year he or she gets the other  They're not gonna come in and say well like I started with you guys It's, you know, you, mom, your family's in Pittsburgh, so you can have the full weekend, but dad can't.

But they're not going to do that. Or they shouldn't. So all that to be said is, you know, think, think it through practically. Do you really want to split that day in half? What will that look like if you want to make long term plans? Or if you are from an area that's not close by, not drivable,  ask for that full weekend.

That's reasonable. Tuesday after school or Wednesday after school, whatever, till that Sunday. So the norm is just splitting the day, splitting it by the day, meaning, you know, even years with one and odd years with the other, but if you have family outside, think that through. Don't split the day, I would say.

I think that sounds good in theory but it's also not really practical. And how much can you eat? I

  Another point that comes up is, well, my mom wants to see them or my dad doesn't want this. 

it's someone's 70th birthday party this year and they, it's extra special and they need to be

Well, and that's fine. There's always special things that happen. But guess what? It's not about Aunt Edna. Ha ha. From National Lampoon's Vacation. And it's not about your grandmother's wants as much as, you know, She's, I'm sure, lovely and all those things.

It's about the parents and the time with their kids. So if you come into your attorney's office and say, yeah, but this, no, like we always did Thanksgiving at my parents house until the pandemic. And then I've kind of taken over having it. And it's so nice to be home and not have to go anywhere. But yeah, no, it's, you're just because you used to do it.

Doesn't mean that's the norm. So that segues to what I started talking about, which was Christmas. Again. Just because it happened when you're intact. does not mean that's what's happening moving forward. It's a new norm and your lawyer should tell you that. If your lawyer is saying, yeah, yeah, I can get you every Christmas Eve.

No, they can't because a court is not going to give one person one and not the other. They're just not going to do it. Now, sometimes you're and I think it's really important that we're fortunate enough that one family celebrates Hanukkah one or half of the family mom celebrates Hanukkah and dad celebrates Christmas.

And then it might be easier to do that. That although even in that situation,  so I just said mom's okay. So mom might say, yeah, I don't celebrate Christmas per se, but I like being able to partake in that with my kids. That's also okay. And same for, you know, dad and this hypothetical to say, look, I want to have some, I mean, Hanukkah is eight nights.

So that's, that's okay.

hard. Yeah, but the time off from school usually corresponds with Christmas, so Hanukkah, maybe, then they're still going to school on those days, so it's not exactly the same.

And so like in my my family,  we have people who celebrate Hanukkah and people who celebrate Christmas and,  my dad, who's my adopted dad, to the extent that's relevant is Jewish and you never seen anybody,  decorated Christmas tree like my Jewish father, he's all in because it's a part of the tradition.

It's not so much about the religion anymore more often than not.  Ultimately you're  You're not going to get what you used to always have. And that's a hard pill for people to swallow sometimes. But again, it's not about you, it's about the kids. So the, the court's going to split it the way that I'm saying, because it's about making sure the kids have their best experience.

But again, if you agree, like if you use my hypothetical from the beginning, if I was getting a divorce and I said, look, I want to have every Christmas Eve  and we can alternate who wakes up with them on Christmas morning, but you can always have Christmas day on, he might agree. But again, remember, custody is always modifiable.

So let's just say I sign that  and I don't ever plan to divorce him. So, you know, let's say it's 2025 cause my kids are still minors at that point. He could say, you know what? No, I don't like this. And he might seek to modify it. And that's. It's, the court's going to modify it. 

So,  the hard, the hard lesson is, it's not about you.  Well, which we should all know, it's about the kids, and this is how the courts are typically going to handle the holidays.

I think we get very set on the traditions that we had as kids, and we want our kids to kind of feel that same thing, but I think, And, and it's not only in divorce, there can be other things that happen. You just have to come up with your new traditions for your kids, and that's what they're going to remember.

So they might remember that every other Christmas Eve, maybe your family doesn't have a big party, but you make s'mores with them, or you, you know, you just kind of have to



They'll remember not having stress.

Yeah. Right. So what you want your kids to remember About making s'mores or I COVID Christmas. I remember making, oh my God, so many Christmas cookies. My stomach hurt. I remember laying on the couch. I was like, if I eat one more Christmas cookie, but it was what we did. I, every kid got to pick their own cookie and I made,

that forever.

and they're going to remember,  well, I don't know if my kids will remember that per se, but they'll remember that that was a stressful time.

Co December 2020 was a stressful time. So they'll remember, not that they couldn't go to Grandmama Grandpop's or go see Mimi and Pop. What they remember is we made Christmas cookies, and they probably don't remember me bellyaching on the couch, but I was. But the point, your kids in the holidays are gonna remember whether or not they felt stress.

So your job is, as the parent, whether it's intact or not, is to keep the stress down.

 I've heard parenting experts despite my CLE coming up, I'm not a parenting expert, but sometimes I feel like that's my job. They will say like, kids always love vacation and it's not because of what you do on vacation.

It's not because of the boat rides in the bay and ocean city  they re, they remember their parents.

less stressed

And they remember their parents going, sure, you can have ice cream for dinner. Sure, you can get more water ice on the beach. Yeah, sure, we'll go mini golfing. Like, that's what the kids remember.

You can only control yourself. So if it's your holiday, how easy can you make it? And yeah, you can't control the other side, but that's part of the reason having custody orders that are black and white are important, you know, and a lot of people come in and try to say, well, we'll just say, we'll we'll agree to it.

The black and white custody orders are there to help you minimize the stress during your time. So my best advice is think about the kids, meaning no Halloween. It's really not necessary, but try to create a minimal stress time. Try to make it about fun.

Yeah, even if that means giving up some of your traditions

 Find new traditions, think outside the box. The rigidity isn't going to help you or your kid. So,

 How do you usually handle the time off from school in

a  break, like a, a line item for winter break, for example spring break too. And Again, it can be split down the middle.

So first half of the break with one and the second half where you obviously correlate it with the holiday. So if the holiday falls, if you have Christmas, then you get that part of the break, something, you know, there's ways to write it up or you could just alternate. And again, I think especially if you're dealing with a break, such as school aged kids do it, just keep the whole break, you know, like that's good for the kids.

We don't get too far into the winter break as much as we did 10 plus years ago. We do more like the holidays and then the days fall where they fall. Especially because as we've talked about, yeah.

The trend is more towards equal custody time. So therefore during those breaks, it's more equal custody time. So yeah, winter break is less defined nowadays than it was, but you can split it in half. You can alternate things like that. one I'll add to this, even though it's not a true holiday, is birthdays. So, a lot of people come in and want to put their birthdays on it. The parents birthdays. Parents and the children's birthday. . So, it'll be like, , I would get my kids on my birthday and Steve would get the kids on his birthday.

In I will say this out loud. If it was my birthday, I'd be like, you take the kids. .. But yeah, don't put birthdays in because what you'll see is, again,  I don't know.

 45, I'll be 46. I don't really care about my birthday anymore.  It's also known as whatever day of the week it is because I'm at work, and then I'm driving a kid, and then I'm doing this, and 

  Look, if you care about your birthday, that's, there's no judgment. For me, I'm like again, it's Tuesday or whatever day of the week it is. 

 But the kid's birthdays, again, it goes back to the same reason for Halloween, because when you put, so oftentimes people will say, well, I get three hours, even if it's not my day with the kid. And I can understand that  kind of because then the problem is it makes it about. 

You, and again, not the kid. And to your point about holiday I'm sorry, Halloween.  If you have the birthday issue, then you're like, well, look, I don't get to see you on I'll use Karen's May 17th. I don't get to see you on May 17th, but guess what? We'll have an extra day. the next time. So then your kid gets two birthdays, like, hey, you know, I might not get to see you on May 17th, but I am going to see you on, I don't know, May 19th and we're going to do something. So now your kid gets two days and it goes back to the same reason.

You're trying to minimize stress on the child and make it about.

them

And again, if you and your ex can coordinate that, great. I don't have any problem with that. It's the requirement. It is the rigidity of, oh, it's 3 o'clock and every birthday from 3 to 6, you have to go to other parent where kid might want to be like, well, I want to go ride my bike with Aiden around the neighborhood.

 Mother's Day and Father's Day is the easiest. Mother gets Mother's Day. Father gets Father's Day. So that one's the easiest



I don't really want to go.

 Your goal when you're thinking about holidays and birthdays.  Is how do I minimize the stress on the kids? And I'm not a coddler, you know that. I'm like, rub some dirt in it, you're fine. But I think when people are hyper focused on this then what happens is the kids lose.



 Let go. And the more you let go about everything, the more cooperation comes. And that's, you know, there's going to be people who are assholes to be assholes.

And you know, you could be the most workable person in the world. And that person might just not respond, but more often than not, the more you let go and the more you change that tone, the more cooperation comes. So the takeaway is focus on how to minimize the stress for the kids. You're not going to keep the same traditions forever.

It's just not going to happen. And the more you let go and try to, Be flexible for lack of a better word, the more cooperation usually comes, because people try to control the uncontrollable.  And when you stop trying to control the uncontrollable, usually what happens is things work itself out.

 When people don't ever have that flexibility and they're not cooperative. And you do go back to court, you can say, look, I'm asking for this, whatever this is, you know, I'm asking for some, you know, for example, that each party shall be entitled to, you know, one family reunion per year.

Actually, I've never put that in a custody order, but it popped into my head. If you can come into court and say, look, I had a family reunion and he said no, because it wasn't his day, that's why I want that in there. That makes sense. It makes more sense. Goes back to courts are reactive, not proactive.

They're not going to presume the other side is going to be a dick and say you can't go to your family reunion. They're going to hope that the other side cooperates because the courts expect cooperation. The courts expect you to go outside of the custody order from time to time 

 It's actually when people are rigid, that looks worse. Sometimes you have to, sometimes you got to, like there's people you cannot, you know, Take an inch. There's plenty of them, but they're more often than they're not the norm. So sometimes I'm like, you have to follow that custody order to a T because if you let go, they will take 20 miles.

Those are the exceptions.   If you are flexible and the other side isn't, they're hanging themselves, not you. And my other last thought that popped into my head is when you are flexible,  don't expect makeup time.

Okay. Cause come on.

Makeup time is also a big no no.

That really doesn't happen all that often. Because it just becomes impractical. So, if you're like, hey, yeah, sure, you want to take the kids to the family reunion, go for it, but I want makeup time, oh my God, stop. That's, that's not needed.

Does that end up going to court? Sometimes?

sometimes? Honestly, we really don't ever put make I mean, and I, I can't even tell you the last time we put makeup time in an order.

I know a case where the other side wanted to put in that if Dad traveled for work. He could get makeup time and I remember saying to my client I was like, yeah, no, especially because this guy could plan his own travel. 

Does get hard to track and it gets very tit for tat and all of those things.

That's different than the right of first refusal, which is for overnight care typically.  You'd say, hey, I'm going to a wedding. I won't be home for the night. If you want the kids, let me know. Otherwise my mom will take care of them or whatever it was.

So there's always little things like that, but yeah, no makeup time. Courts want you to be flexible and. Work together.  And I know that sometimes that's impossible, but sometimes it has to start with somebody and my suggestion, whoever is listening, think about it being you because you will always win in the long run if you are  open to  stop trying to control the uncontrollable. 



 Sounds like a good place to end.

Julie has some exciting things coming up.

up. I do. So Friday, I am going to be on a podcast with Plan America talking about finances and divorce. So this will be very divorce specific. So that's Friday. I don't remember the date. The 4th? October 4th, I think.

And then October 24th, I will be at the Lancaster County Family Law Summit as the keynote speaker. Talking about, basically navigating different parenting styles. And so that can be found on the Lancaster Bar Association website. And I was honored to be asked to be the keynote speaker.

 It would be attorneys that would want to come to that if you're a local Pennsylvania attorney?

Yeah, it's a continuing legal education Morning.

So they, it starts at 8:00 AM and they have a judge speaking, I believe on Caden's law, domestic relations. I don't know if there's one more in there, but and then I'm the one that ends.

So there you go. You want to meet Julie? You want to do some CLEs and you're in southeastern Pennsylvania?

Yep. I'll be there. Come

on over to Lancaster. 

I actually might spend the night now that I think of it 'cause it's at like 8:00 AM so I might spend the night. I don't know. We'll see.  It's completely irrelevant to the podcast,

you know. It's,  I guess if you're staying overnight, you can get a drink with Julie the night before.

ha. If you're buying. No, I'm kidding. But yeah, I'm excited to do those and hopefully get some more speaking opportunities. 

If anyone out there is maybe part of  a divorce group or a single mom's group or any kind of group like that, that might want that could benefit from Julie's wisdom.

Or podcasts or, , news agencies with regards to the intersection between, you know, high end cases and news and how it affects custody and family law and all that stuff. I, this is what, I mean, I, 

In the meantime, you can find Julie on Tik Tok. She's at lawyer Julie. She's on Instagram  Julie Potts underscore ESQ 



And she's also on Facebook as Julie Potts Esquire and you're listening to the podcast, but you can go to lawfullyeverafter. com

And we're working on a website

And we're working on a website where everything will be together

So yeah, Emily's busy, which I appreciate.

busy, busy, but it's all good things, so thank you for listening and  send us a message if you have any questions or feedback and rate and review.

We'll be getting some new stuff out this fall now that the summer craziness is over and we'll be getting some posts up on Instagram and getting a little more into a routine.

In the meantime,

See you on social media.

Yeah, see us on TikTok.  All right. Bye.