Lawfully Ever After
Lawfully Ever After
Judge Julie: The Holloway Case Part 2
Holloway v. Holloway (Part Two): Testimony, Cross-Examination & What Judges Really Weigh
In Part Two of the fictional custody case Holloway v. Holloway, we move past the setup and into the heart of a Pennsylvania custody trial: live testimony. This episode walks listeners through abbreviated, but realistic, direct and cross-examinations of both parents, a workplace witness, and the often-overlooked impact of third-party caregivers.
Mom takes the stand first, describing routines, anxiety, and decision-making around therapy and medication. Dad follows, explaining why he’s seeking 50/50 custody, how his job has changed, and how he relies on family and a girlfriend for support. From there, we hear from Dad’s boss about work schedules, unpredictability, and the limits of flexibility—testimony that often carries more weight than parents expect.
We also break down the in-camera interviews with the children: what judges listen for, how anxiety and routine factor into custody decisions, and why courts are cautious about labeling kids as “coached” or “manipulated.”
Finally, Julie pulls back the curtain on what actually happens at a custody trial—how testimony is structured, why parents usually testify first, how long real trials last, and what it means when a judge “takes it under advisement” instead of ruling from the bench.
No ruling yet—that’s coming in Part Three. For now, this episode is all about credibility, consistency, and the quiet details that can tip the scales in a custody case.
Show Notes:
Learn more about Julie Potts, Esq on her website https://juliepottsesq.com
Follow Julie on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawyerjulie
Follow Julie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/juliepotts_esq
To contact the podcast with questions, suggestions, or if you are interested in being a guest, please e-mail lawyerjulie55@gmail.com
Please remember that this podcast should not be considered legal advice, and you should always consult your own attorney if you have questions or need clarifications about your specific situation.
This episode of Lawfully After Ever was produced and edited by Emily Murphy.
MIC2
===
MIC2: [00:00:00] well, we're back for part two of the Holloway versus Holloway case.. today we have some testimony to listen to.
MIC1: So the recap.
Mom and dad have been separated for over a year.
Mom was the primary caregiver when they were young. She did not work for, give or take, nine years. The kids are elementary school age 10 and seven or something like that.
Dad travels for work and had moved to a rental about. 30, 45 minutes away.
Dad wants 50 50. Mom wants the schedule to stay the same. There was no safety concerns. That's the gist that I can remember.
MIC2: So if you were a judge, you'd be going into it with that kind of
MIC1: Prior to any trial, you have a pretrial conference.
And the pretrial conference is, obviously a little bit more in depth than that, but it's going to be the sum of what. Each party wants, who are the witnesses? How long will the trial take and things like that.
Every judge does things differently.
The question is often, why isn't this 50 50? And as we've talked about, there's [00:01:00] no presumption of 50 50 in Pennsylvania by any means. Although we, we were four vote shy. We meaning the legislators were four vote shy to pass that it is a presumption of 50 50. So litigants need to know like you're an uphill battle if you're trying to not have 50 50 in a typical case, meaning no significant safety concerns, things like that.
MIC2: that. They are operating under what we assumed was,
MIC1: an interim custody order. Where mom had primary dad had every other weekend and a dinner visit or something like
MIC2: very old
school you said? Very
MIC1: school you said? Very old school.
MIC2: And it is dad who wants 50 50?
Alright, so first we're going to hear Lauren.
This is Lauren, the mom being Being examined, questioned by her attorney.[00:02:00] [00:03:00] [00:04:00]
MIC1: Okay. I should have probably started taking notes. I notes. I had a lot, I had a lot of things pop into my head.
MIC2: So that was, mom. Let's do the mom's cross examination and then you can.
MIC1: then you can
MIC2: Comment on how you think mom did,
Your mother watches the kids after school for about two hours. So you rely on third party care? Yes. For short amounts of time. Have you ever refused to swap weekends with dad when it disrupted the kid's routine? Did you ever offer makeup time to dad? Not when it would've hurt the kids. Did you consult Evan before starting medication?
No. I followed the doctor's recommendation. Even with shared legal custody? Yes, because Noah was struggling.
MIC2: So that's mom's time on the stand. Well,
MIC1: Obviously that's a very abbreviated version. I think for, a snippet of looks like, it's it's not that far off to be honest. Gotta love ai.
MIC2: Our little robot voices,
MIC1: you know, the the pace is quite quick, [00:05:00] but you get the point. So do you want my comments
MIC2: How do you think mom did on the stand? If you were the judge and you're hearing her answers, what's maybe going through your head at that point?
MIC1: I think mom is, a little bit too dramatic is my, is the word. Oftentimes kids feed off of their parents. So when I hear kids who say they struggle at transition, looking at the clock throwing up before
have, People tell me all the time, oh, the kids don't know how I feel. Bull shit. The kids They know and, and I'm guessing Mom does not hide the fact that she's not happy that the kids are leaving. She doesn't hide the fact that she's disappointed with dad. She doesn't hide her feelings, and so the kids want to please her, and by that they're going to behave in a way that shows the mom that they want to be with her. 'cause they want to protect her. They wanna do those things. I think mom is a little bit too rigid. I think mom sounds a little bit bitter. That's my negative side. The positive side is She commented that dad loves the kids.
I think that's a very good thing to always have a person to
Make sure that [00:06:00] it's positive in some ways. yeah, I think that's the gist of it.
MIC2: All right. Let's see how Dad did.
, So this is, , Evan on with his attorney Yes.
MIC1: Yes,
MIC2: Yes.
MIC1: Yes,
Evan, why are you asking for equal custody? Because I'm not a babysitter. I'm their father and I want to be equally involved in their lives as their mother. Did you keep a custody log? Yes. For five months. And what does it show? I took the kids for three unscheduled overnights when Lauren needed help.
Have you changed your job? I'm with the same company, working the same position as I have for the past five years, but I turned down a promotion and shifted territory to be closer to home. Do you still travel? Sometimes Less than before. Do you agree with MIA and Noah's anxiety and A DHD diagnoses? Yes.
But I think they're being labeled too fast. It doesn't seem like they're much different than other kids their age. How do you feel about their therapy appointments? I'm okay with them going to therapy, but I'm not sold that they need to go so often. What do you think about Noah's medication? Seven is too young for that.
I do not agree that he needs it at this time. Your girlfriend, Tessa, how long have you been together? About 12 months. [00:07:00] Does she live with you? No, but she lives about five minutes away, so she is at my house every day. Does she help with the kids? Yeah. When she's there, she will help me. If I'm running late, getting home from work, she could make them dinner or get them ready for bed, but I always make sure to see them before they are asleep.
And your parents, do they help with the kids? Sometimes, but not every day. More so on the weekends. If I'm stuck at a job site. I like that the kids get to spend quality time with their grandparents.
Can you guarantee no more overnight travel with your current position? No. How long is the commute to school from your current house? 40 minutes. A little longer with traffic. And how will you get the kids to and from school if there's no busing option? I can take them in the morning before I leave for work in the afternoon.
If I get stuck late at work, my parents or Tessa can pick them up. What about soccer practice and therapy appointments between myself and my support system? The kids won't be missing anything. Do you attend Mia's Saturday games on your weekends? When I can. Who takes her when you can't? Sometimes Lauren, sometimes Tessa.
But can you guarantee it will be you with the kids the majority of the time? I hope so. I will do my best to keep my work schedule [00:08:00] manageable when I have the kids. Have you ever withheld Noah's a DHD medication? Yes. Did you get his doctor's approval to do that? No, but I'm his father. It's not like he absolutely needs it every day.
It's just a nice to have. Did you notify Lauren? Yes, when we did our custody exchange two days later.
MIC1: That's
MIC2: right. That's it for dad. Okay.
MIC1: It sounds very common.
So talking about the they don't clarify, but I'm sure most people know that ADHD medication, for the most part is a day to day. I wouldn't have an issue if that was flushed out where he said it's,
Something that I think he doesn't need on the weekends teach him that, you don't rely on medication.
I don't have an issue with him saying that seven is young. It is young. Obviously we don't have the testimony of what the issues are and or what
interventions they tried prior. I think dad's right that it takes a village. It is also appropriate for grandparents to have time on dad's time ' cause.
Technically in some cases the grandparents can try to get their own time , if they're not getting it, through the custody schedule.
MIC2: We still
have to talk to , his boss.
This is Evan's attorney asking Mark the boss, and then he gets [00:09:00] crossed.
Mark, what are Evan's Typical hours 7:00 AM to about four or 5:00 PM Most weekdays can he leave earlier than 5:00 PM to pick up the kids at school? If he's not on a site or can get another manager to cover for him, he can pick them up and then finish his day working remotely from home with the kids.
Has his schedule become more stable in the past 12 months? Yes. He turned down a senior promotion and moved to closer sites. Will it be typical for Evan to work weekends? He has enough seniority that he should only have to be on call. But in construction there are always possibilities for unexpected issues and emergencies that would require him to go onsite immediately.
Will Evan be able to structure his work schedule around his custody schedule? To some extent, we schedule four to six months ahead of time and he can propose any schedule he wants, but the client has final say.
What causes late nights for Evan at work? Equipment failures, failed inspections, weather delays, safety issues. If something goes wrong at 3:00 PM can he always leave for school pickup? No. He needs to find coverage. If a child is sent home sick at noon, can he always leave? No. The site can't be unattended, so he would need to find another [00:10:00] manager to cover for him.
He said Evan will need to be on call. What is the frequency he is on call? One or two weekends a month for inspections or emergencies. Does he get to pick those weekends? The managers decide the weekends amongst themselves. So he would have to work with them to have free weekends when he needs them. The other managers also have families and vacations, so it's not always possible for everyone to get the exact schedule they want.
MIC1: Didn't he turn British
in cross? He did be. He did or talked slower. I don't know. These are like book narrators I think. I don't know. This
MIC2: was, it
was
the
MIC1: oh no, , it's not bad.
MIC2: And then, Tessa also testified, but I don't have a recording of her testimony, but I can tell you what she said. Okay. She was asked if she parents, the kids, she said no, she just helps with the kids. She confirmed if Evan isn't there, she usually makes dinner and puts the kids to bed. And she estimated this is currently happening about 75% of the time, and on the nights he works, he sees the kids for an hour or less.
Yes.
MIC1: That was
MIC2: all she really said.
And then the judge did interview the children. Okay.
MIC1: Okay. Well, you did, but I have your notes [00:11:00] here about what you thought about
MIC2: them.
Mia presented as a bright, articulate, and thoughtful, but visibly anxious. She was polite and cooperative throughout the interview when discussing school friends and soccer, she was engaged and animated.
However, when the conversation turned to custody exchanges and schedule changes, her demeanor shifted noticeably. Mia expressed significant worry about being late, missing activities or not knowing who would be picking her up. She described feeling stressed and sick to her stomach on days when plans change.
She did not state a preference for living with one parent or over the other. She repeatedly emphasized wanting to know the plan ahead of time. When asked about weekends with her father, Mia stayed. She enjoys time with him, but noted that he is not usually home until later and that Tessa often makes dinner and puts her to bed.
Mia stated that she feels better when she knows which parent will take her to soccer and stay for the whole game.
The court
found me as statements to be consistent with the testimony of the parents and corroborated by school and therapeutic records. The court did not interpret me as anxiety, as manipulation or coaching, but rather as a child struggling with unpredictability.
And then Noah. So he's only seven. He presented as an energetic, emotionally reactive, and developmentally younger than his chronological age. He required frequent [00:12:00] redirection during the interview and had difficulty maintaining focus. He struggled to describe timeframes, but was able to describe feelings associated with transitions.
He expressed frustration when routines change using phrases such as Everything gets messed up and I don't know what's happening. Noah stated, when he is at his father's house, Tessa often helps him with homework and bedtime. He acknowledged that he does not always take his medication at his father's house.
And appeared confused about why when discussing school, Noah referenced feeling mad and out of control after unexpected changes. And these kids are,
they're a little softies, aren't they? Mm-hmm. I think that,
MIC1: I'm like,
MIC2: God.
Oh, I don't know what parent I'm gonna be at 'em spiraling.
I guess the mom's making them anxious, like she is the court placed. Limited weight on Noah's preferences given his age, but significant weight on the emotional patterns he described, which were consistent with therapeutic testimony and the documented school incident.
so that's what you got, judge Julie.
So let's not do your ruling yet. 'Cause that's gonna be in the next episode.
So let's just , do a little pause here. Maybe talk a little bit about. of
the major differences with what we just did versus like how an actual [00:13:00] trial goes, if there's big things that we missed or anything like that.
And then also what happens right after, while you're waiting for your
decision.
MIC1: If you have a custody trial and it's a true trial, meaning record hearing, call your first witness, like you heard there, every county is different. Philadelphia probably does a trial that quick.
MIC2: Because they're getting through like 70
million a
MIC1: Chester County expect a trial like that, meaning mom, dad. Boss girlfriend, probably a two day trial. So you would be as a party, likely on the stand for about half a day, say nine 30 to 12 for direct and cross examination.
MIC2: That's it's a lots more.
MIC1: a
lot of more que a lot more questions again, and the judges only wanna hear it once.
But it was a very decent snippet of the kind of stuff that would be asked and of cross examination. Again, every county does it different in Chester County, typically the courts wanna hear first from mom and dad. So in a normal trial, the person who is bringing the case.
Forward and in custody is the person who doesn't like the current order. So when I was in the DA's office, the Commonwealth would put their [00:14:00] case on start to finish. We wouldn't piecemeal it. So in this case it would've been dad in a quote unquote typical situation.
MIC2: The
MIC1: that we do things more often than not is we do dad and then we don't go through the rest of his witnesses. We go right to mom. The courts do that 'cause they wanna hear from the parents first. They don't want to hear from the collateral witnesses, \ before they hear from the parties the case that I tried in July, dad had to go first and then he continued all of his witnesses and I did that 'cause I didn't want any of his witnesses to try to clean up what my client testified to. I wanted to have him just go straight. Some judges might tell me no, but this judge didn't.
So that. Person went straight through on his case in chief, and then after he was finished, then I went. So the judges have to specifically go through each and every factor. Most judges don't give a decision from the bench.
Most judges close the testimony and under the statute in Pennsylvania, they have to get a decision out in 14 days.
MIC2: So do they
say
anything at the end?
MIC1: I always forewarn clients they're gonna say something positive about both and a criticism of both. They generally don't give much of a [00:15:00] clue as to what they're gonna do.
They'll say usually this is a hard case. I'm really gonna have to think this through. They'll always say, your lawyers did a good job. They'll give some comments. They'll always give a summary of what the kids said. There's one judge in Chester County that does rule from the bench.
He does that because I think he doesn't want to have to write an opinion, which I get but for the most part, they will send a decision and well, they're supposed to do it in 14 days. It doesn't mean it actually happens.
MIC2: So when he does it from the bench, does he say okay, let's all take a break for an hour and I'm gonna come back?
MIC1: Look, for the most part, he'll listen to all the evidence, but after they hear mom and dad, it's really not much that's gonna sway him either way.
He'll say things like, there's no safety concerns in this case. So that factor , is not relevant. Mom was a primary caregiver. However, dad does seem willing and able, I'm not too concerned that he is not going to the IEPs because ultimately that was the norm.
And as long as one parent's going and they can cooperate, dad should listen to the doctors. But . You don't have to blindly fo follow doctors.
So they would go through each factor and make their comments because basically you look at it as chart and it's a weight. So that's why there's the scales, right? You might [00:16:00] win more than the other side, but if they don't put a ton of weight on the things that you win and they put more weight on the other, it's all about how much you weigh things.
Meaning how much does it matter. And this is in an opinion or verbally, they'll go through what they weigh.
MIC2: So the writing is
about the same.
MIC1: They'll literally go H Factor and say the. Testimony was this, I credit mom. I credit dad. This is a neutral, this doesn't weigh in either party's favor, or this weighs for mom, this weighs for dad, what have you.
So they will go through each and every factor and do that. It's either in the written opinion or on the record.
And then you get the decision.
MIC2: You get it
in the mail, everyone's like, all right, this is
it.
MIC1: The general rule is if everybody is. Eh, you probably got it right. If someone's devastated on either end, that might be an indication that it's not correct.
, And some like a relocation, like there is a clear winner and a clear loser in custody. Generally it's not as black and white
MIC2: alright, we'll end the episode with you are not gonna rule from the bench. You're gonna go and think about it and write your opinion and we'll come back in the next episode and Julie is going to tell us what she's [00:17:00] decided for the hallways.
MIC1: I'll get the factors
and write it
down. I'll do it like a judge would, at least verbally.
MIC2: Alright, we'll see you next time for the thrilling conclusion. This is like true crime except a lot more
boring.
MIC1: Well, the thing is with this is
People fight really hard over kids and money.
True crime.
It's devastating. 'cause usually there's somebody who is egregiously injured, but. There's Good. and bad. Right and wrong.
MIC2: not like
two parents trying to do their best and right.
Fighting.
MIC1: right. All right, we'll go through it next
week.
Sounds good. Thanks, Anne.
MIC2: All right. Bye.