I just found my clients didn't have friends, right? And I hadn't had friends. So I was kind of like, wait a minute, this must be related to ADHD. Like it was the first time it resonated with me.
SPEAKER_02Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab.
SPEAKER_01Before we get started, we have a couple of spots left for business owners who are in the service business, struggle with ADHD symptoms, make over 100K, and know that if they were able to have an operational layer built for them, they would get so much more done and be much more effective in the business, as well as obviously growing better revenue, spending more time with family. If that's you, go ahead, click the link down below to book a free business build-out that you can do with me and we can see if you're a good fit for our program. Today I am super excited to be chatting with Caroline Maguire.
SPEAKER_02Caroline McGuire is a certified ADHD coach and author of a book that we're going to talk about today and an internationally recognized expert on friendship and social skills for neurodivergent adults. She is a founder and director of the fundamentals of ADHD coaching for families curriculum at ADD Coach Academy. And she earned her undergraduate degree from Trinity College and her Master of Education from Leslie University, specializing in social, emotional learning, and executive functioning. Her award-winning book, Why Will No One Play With Me. Oh, that title got me when I heard it the first time, paved the way for her new book, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults. And it's the first comprehensive neuroaffirming roadmap for ADHD and autistic communities. So we're super, super excited to have her here as well. And before we get into that, as you guys know, we help business owners who are struggling with ADHD symptoms and their back end. We help organize their businesses, hire for them, get everything out of their way so that they can focus on doing what they love, which is their zone of genius. So if you are interested in that, you can click the link down below and find out more.
SPEAKER_00Caroline, let's jump into it. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, you know, we talked a little bit about, I've obviously read your book and mentioned how much I found it to be very relatable. I want to know from you what made you decide to talk about something that now that I am thinking about it, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is such a deeply resonating topic, but hasn't really been discussed before.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, part of it was that it annoyed me that it isn't discussed more. Like from the jump, when I was, you know, starting coaching 21 years ago after I trained, I just found my clients didn't have friends, right? And I hadn't had friends. So I was kind of like, wait a minute, this must be related to ADHD. Like it was the first time it resonated with me. And I was at the Hallowell Center at the time, and all the clinicians were like, no, like this is a thing, right? And I was like, why don't we talk about this? Like, why are we just talking about like time management and stuff like that? Not that it's not important, it is, right? You know this. You help entrepreneurs with their back end of their business, right? But at the end of the day, I want to work in my passion area, and then I want to like actually have something else, right? And so I think the reason I talk about it is that it wasn't talked about and it was such an area of importance, and there was really no one else doing this work. And I kind of invented this work because there was no one else doing it. I mean, I got a master's, but then I really adapted everything for our population. And so I really feel like that's why. Because I just was like, this is such an important area, and no one talks about it. And even to this day, whenever I go to an ADHD conference or something, I'm the only person or people I trained. You know what I mean? And I'm like, and it's so important. People come, they pack this the place, you know, they come to hear this topic. So I just I think it's partly an ADHD trait thing where I was like, oh, it annoys me that we're not addressing this. It's so important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and all the research, you know, because we have over the years done a little bit of academic research into friendship as part of uh this podcast. And it's always been very sad, very sad, very, very written, not for the neurodiverse person, like not neuroaffirming at all, where it's very like, yep, no, they're bad. They're bad at this. Uh, that sucks for them. Anyway, moving on. And that's kind of the research to a certain extent. Like, oh, did you know also bad at friendship? Anyway, and that was kind of the the way that it was left. I feel like, you know, the conversations that you've had, one of the things that I found really interesting in your book, and I really understood was that sense of why even bother? You know, the sense of like, what is the point? I and I wonder about that as well for people, you know, I work with people who have businesses and families, and you know, things, their life is getting really, really, really busy, and they have this missing gap with the friendship side of things. And so it does really start to feel like maybe friendship is a myth, and and and your book is sort of saying a little bit, but not as much as you think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, when I was writing the book, I interviewed a lot of people, some of whom are quoted and wanted to be in the book, some of whom were like, love you, Caroline, don't want to be quoted, don't want to be in the book. And one of the things that really struck me was the cynicism. And I knew that from my clients, I knew that from people who DM me. People literally send me like nasty DMs that are like, Why are you talking about this? You're making me feel bad about myself. I'm like, then don't follow me and don't talk about it. But I knew that it was a touchy subject. And so I realized like I have to address this cynicism. I have to address this thing. Like, if somebody goes into a bookstore and they flip open this book, they can't hear just the path forward until we address, like, I get you may not want to talk about this at all. And this is really hard, and this is like such a touchy subject. So I definitely knew that that was a thing because even some of the kind people who agreed to interview with me were like, I love you, Carolyn, but I'm like super cynical that this can never be better. And I'm like, oh, okay. But but like, you know, they told me why. And part of it is that the books out there are written for typical people. They're very vague, they're not neuroaffirming, and they're they're they kind of come down to like the Nike phrase, like, just do it. And that, when then you try to do that and it doesn't work out, makes you feel really bad. And so your past history plus that like creates the cynicism. So I do get it.
SPEAKER_02No, no, I appreciate that. And I think that was for me was such a oh, this is not, this is not a normal book. Like, we're not gonna just like, you know, talk about etiquette or something like that. If etiquette rules led to friendships, we would be way more overrepresented in the neurodiverse population in friendships. But unfortunately, it is not a one-to-one.
SPEAKER_00Well, I always think that when someone says like the one key to anything with ADHD, I'm like, do you not think that if there was one thing that all of us could do, I'd have gone out in the past 51 years that I've been on this planet and done it, right? Like, there's not one thing, and that's what's really hard about this. But it's also, I think, more validating because then it's like, oh, this is hard. It's not just you.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And and it's not just a list of rules that you can learn. Because if it was, we would all do that in one hyper-focused weekend and we would be done. So, so yeah, it's um it is interesting, and I think you can really see that in the book, that shift. And and I do understand, by the way, with the cynicism, because one of the things I do in my work with working with people's operational side is I'll interview their team members when we start their business, and regularly their team members will be like, You seem nice. So I'm gonna tell you this. Uh, this is never gonna work. It's not gonna work, you know, turn back now. Like, uh, I'm saying this with and then like three months down the line, you get a message and they're like, Oh my god, it's happening. So it's it is it is that feeling, I think, with ADHD specifically, especially when you're working with later, later diagnosed ADHD, which obviously you are in this book, uh not later diagnosed ADHD, but later diagnosed like friendship struggles. You have all of this baggage that comes in. Because if it was so simple that we could just pick up a book or, you know, watch My Little Pony Friendship is Magic, and it would just immediately teach us how to do all of this stuff, then we would we would be done by now. So people are bringing all of their failed attempts to the table.
SPEAKER_00And I think the late diagnosis piece is important because if you didn't know your brain and you didn't know what was going on, and adults in your life when you were a child were giving you really unhelpful advice, like just try harder, be more friendly, you know, be the friend you want to be is like one of those phrases I just loathe because it has nothing to do with success and friendship. And I don't know why people say it, then you do become cynical because you've tried all those things and you really did have good intentions and it didn't work. But I think the big piece for me is did you understand you had ADHD and did you have treatment and did you know to get neuroaffirming strategies? Did you use those strategies? Like that to me is the biggest piece. And the answer for most adults is no.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I think that's really important and also very validating, I think, because sometimes we will look at our past with the lens of knowledge we have now and judge based on, like, well, surely I, you know, and it's like, well, you just didn't have any of the tools at the time. Let's say you are a parent, you're an entrepreneur, yeah, because I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you have kids and you have a business and your life is super busy, and you could dedicate maybe three hours a week to friendship. What would you recommend somebody do when they have that kind of time crunch with their life?
SPEAKER_00I resonate very much with that. I would say this interest is our fuel. Interest is the most important thing for us. Interest is how I make all decisions. Like, am I interested? And if I'm not, what do I need to employ to manage it? Or what do I outsource to the point of your business? Because I'm a big, I will take on extra clients or extra work or build you a social skills curriculum in order to not have to do this. And I think I would join an activity or a club or a group that is really interesting to me, where I'm going to find like-minded people who share my interests so that I can feel activated and engaged when I bother to use the three hours, right? Three hours is precious, right? So that I enjoy myself and I have fun. And I have such a greater chance of meeting my people if I'm in an interest-based activity where other people share my language, share my interests. Uh, and we have just already that playing field to start with. So I would not say you have to do everything, right? I don't think you need to join everything. I don't think you need to do everything. I think you need to be where your people are so that it feels worth it.
SPEAKER_02Let's say somebody takes an advice, they find an interest group, you know, there's lots of things you can search now, and then maybe they're like board games or they're like a sport or or you know, something along the lines. And now they are there. Actually, if you're an entrepreneur, there are great entrepreneurial groups everywhere, and they're standing holding something awkwardly and sweating bullets. Like, what happens now?
SPEAKER_00Well, so there's a couple things for those who have really high social anxiety. I have a few, I mean, I talk about this a lot in the book, but one thing is it doesn't have to be an in-person group. Like, if you need to get your confidence up, you can do something online. You can just try to implement one piece of the advice that I give. Like, I want to say that because for some people, this is a Herculean thing. And I want to make sure that they hear that anything you do, congratulate yourself on that step. And I find that online activities or activities where you already know someone really help when you have social anxiety. But for other people, what I like about these high interest activities is it's a lot easier to go to a thing where you're playing darts or you're playing a board game or you're doing something, you're kayaking, you're actively playing pickleball, whatever it is, right? Than it is to go to something where you stand awkwardly around. So I think part of what I would say is, and part of the advice I give in the book is to curate those activities so that it's highly interactive, so that you do need to get to know people. So there has to be that interaction, but there also needs to be that interaction so that, you know, if you're crafting with other people, if you're playing the board games, that makes it less awkward because now you have like an excuse to interact and talk to people. So I wouldn't join things that are very like you have to get your drink and bravely walk across the room. And I think that's part of why things have have failed in the past, because that's what people used to tell us to do. And I've done that, and it it's really hard. But if you get how to follow things, yeah, but if you have something you're doing, if you're building houses for habitat for humanity, if you're doing some kind of volunteer thing, it's so much easier because you're not just like standing awkwardly around. You actually literally have something to physically do with your body.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I like that. I think that's great. And so, you know, that might lead to another question, which I think comes up more so for my entrepreneurial clients and people is they already often there's a sense of guilt about the amount of time that is being spent working on the business. It usually takes longer than a classic 40-hour work week. There's a lot of expectations, and so I feel like one of the reasons sometimes these needs go unmet is because there's a sense of I don't like uh a friendship is a luxury, right? And I'm working with the I'm working with the necessit necessities. And so one day maybe sort of like I'll go on holiday and I'll have a friend, you know, there's a sense of I don't feel like I deserve to spend that time on myself in this very luxury way. And if I did, I think sometimes that could be the negotiation. Do you sometimes recommend people do things in a couple if that's becomes part of the problem? Like, what are you what are your recommendations there?
SPEAKER_00I mean, my recommendation is to look at the problem and solve for the problem. If doing it as a couple or doing an exchange, right? Like, you know, you get to go here Saturday morning, I I watch the kids Sunday afternoon, that kind of thing is really important. Look, my big sales pitch is that you have to have something in your life other than work. And I say this as a total workaholic, right? I love my work, I love everything I do, and I have don't really, I don't really think a lot of people who are very successful have a lot of work-life balance. I happen to think that's a myth. I get pounded for that, so I'm sure some people will come after me in the comments. But I I just find that like my husband's an entrepreneur, my husband runs a consulting company, he doesn't have a lot of time. We know many friends who are starting companies or do like they don't have a lot of time. But I do feel like, you know, it is a health benefit, and those connections can also help you with a lot of your daily problems, right? You know, and if you want at the end of your life, you would want to have those connections. So what's a way that you can do them also that fits with, you know, your life? Is it that, you know, it's only Saturday mornings and then your spouse gets some time too? Is it that you you do do something as a couple, or is it that you do something that, you know, is exercise and it's friendship, right? But I think it's almost like the way people say to you, I can't, I'm sure they say, I can't afford this, I can't do this, it can't get better, right? But it's like it can, right? And so I just I really feel like whenever I encounter this, I love to problem solve. And also setting your expectations, you know, sometimes part of the problem is people's, and I blame the media, expectations are like Hollywood expectations. Yeah, they're not realistic. So for me as a busy person, I'm going to dinner Monday night with a friend of mine who doesn't live in my town, but I just adore, and that will fill my connection cup for a long time. Do you know what I mean? So I'm making space for that, but I'm not making space for 12,000 dinners. Do you know what I mean? I and then the other thing is is it is it a networking club? Like, would that fill up their their cup? Would it be something where, yeah, there is a business benefit to it, but there's also fun. I mean, there are a lot of things like that that are like fun, but also there's like a business benefit and knowing these people will help you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I think it's it can definitely be a combination. There's a lot of spaces out there. I wanted to talk to you then about talked about the three P's. We've got participation, proximity, and practice. And I've heard about this before, and so it was I was interested in seeing it here in your book. I want to talk specifically about the consistent the consistency needed to build a friendship. Because one of the things that I thought you discussed really well that doesn't get discussed a lot, and is specifically important for ADHD, is the fact that we don't meet somebody and look across the room and there's a lightning bolt and we're like, that's it. Which, you know, it can happen more so sometimes in relationships, but mostly for friendships, it's like they're there and we're we're friends, sort of we know each other, and then you see each other more, and and slowly over time this thing builds, you know, because we are regularly in the same space. That is like the most un-ADHD friendly thing that you've ever heard in your life, you know. Like when you think about how that works, it makes sense that we don't do it because the dopamine, it's like it's like the opposite of dopamine boosting.
SPEAKER_00And the thing is that there is a lot of times in the books that what I say is like, I know that this is a problem, right? I am ADHD, I am dyslexic, I'm all these things too. I can't not tell you this because all the research shows that this is the best way. I'm gonna tell you, and then I'm gonna tell you strategies, and I'm also gonna tell you to celebrate your wins and not to hold yourself to a typical standard, right? But yes, the more you are in proximity and you show up and you see people regularly, the more you're able to nurture a friendship. And that's why I love activities that are like, I don't have to plan it, right? It's on autopilot. It is, it is, you know, every Thursday night I go. It's not that I have to text people and arrange things. And we all know those WhatsApp groups that you're in where you're like, oh my God, if we don't pick a date, I'm going to like scream right now or just stop, right? Yeah. And it's not something that has to be in your memory trying to schedule. So I give a lot of tips about how to show up. And one of the things I also encourage people to do is to think about your why. Like, why do you want to do this? Because when we are interested, you and I both know we can move mountains, right? I can create things in a day that take other people a month because I have hyper focus and I'm interested. And I think that's part of it. Like, that's why I love these high interest activities where you're like jazzed to go. And it doesn't mean you're still not going to have logistical issues and your ADHD and struggling. I'm not saying that, but it's a lot better than if you feel like you're obligated to go and there's no why there and there's no enjoyment there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I think it's it's a really great way to keep the dopamine boosts high, like giving yourself a win where you're like, even if I went and I didn't really talk to anybody about anything except the thing that I was doing, I still really enjoyed the thing that I was doing.
SPEAKER_00And yes, yes, I have so many stories like that from clients where they're like, you know, it was a great event. I didn't actually meet anyone. It kind of reminds me of dating, right? I mean, you know, when you're dating and you're kind of like, this date was. I mean, I just remember a girlfriend saying to me one time, I was like, how was the date? And she was like, the date was really bad, but the pastrami at the deli you went to was like so good, right? Where you're like, the date wasn't great. The movie was good though, you know, like where you're like enjoying some aspect of it. And I really also think I give a lot of tips on how do we keep this from being outside of out of sight, out of mind? How do we get this on our radar? How do we build systems? And then also, you know, when we're looking for things, how do we find the thing that is not this, you know, Herculean effort to arrange? You know, if you're looking at two different things and one is super organized, that might be the one to go with because then you don't have to be the organizer.
SPEAKER_02And I will say with that, I know you mentioned sometimes organizing events. I just, as a reformed organizer, I just want to say. Don't do it. It's not as easy as it sounds. I I now do that for money and not for free. Because I used to be the person who would organize. I'd be really excited and I'd be like, right, we're gonna organize. Yeah, exactly. And then and then you think, oh, well, I've organized it, so now it's gonna be simple.
SPEAKER_00No, it's no, that's why those WhatsApp groups where everybody's weighing in and nobody picks. I can't. Not do. I mean, um, there's a dinner I go to at the international conference on ADHD, and there's this one poor soul who arranges it. And we always have so much fun. But I literally, like the first thing I do when I enter the room is to go up and say, thank you and bless you for for arranging this, because I know that it was like a nightmare. And when I say be the organizer too, I may mean even if that's something that's a strength and you would find enjoyment and you feel like I would rather have it at my house and control the environment and get it going, or I think I could do this. I want people to feel empowered that if they have an idea and they want to put themselves out there and they want to do it, like it's totally possible to do certain things. But I know for a lot of people, they're like, get out of here with your organized things advice. Like I won't do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and I will say, because I love, I do like organizing things. I am that person. My house is like, you know, we have we have a big house because so that we can just host and be like, nobody leave the house.
SPEAKER_00This is great. Like everyone's here, it's great. I'm in my slippers, they had to go through the snow to get here. Like, yeah, that's kind of me.
SPEAKER_02We have little, little children, like six months through to four years. So three children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because then you they need to nap and they need to sleep, and it's so much easier to. That's how we ended up posting Christmas at one point because I was like, I would rather do it here and have the naps get like I can arrange the thing for the naps. And actually, a cousin of mine is taking over for that very reason because she has little people and I have big people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's I'm I'm looking forward to that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But it is, it is that situation of like, you know, having I don't know how you feel about this, but I I sort of have a thing of like, okay, before you agree to host something, or you think, oh my god, this would be so fun, we should totally all do it, and I'll do it at my house. You need like it's like when you're impulse buying, it's like you put it in your cart and you leave it for 24 hours.
SPEAKER_00Like, oh my God, I totally do that. Yes, yes, leave it in the cart. Well, I and you know, I know that one of the things I talked about in Why Will Know and Play With Me is like how to know when you're being impulsive. And I do have an impulsive friendship cycle section on this, but I do think like learning the signs of when you're being impulsive, like your physical body signals for me, my chest gets really red. And like it's almost like I have a gurgling in my brain that takes over and I start doing things I shouldn't do. And I think, like, yeah, absolutely. Write the email and like wait 24 hours, you know, run the idea by your partner who might be like, Remember the last time we did this, you told me to tell you to never ever do this again. And then, and then also like, what, you know, could you do to lift the burden? You know, like if it feels like a burden. So, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02I want to talk then about giving too much. It's sort of similar related to impulsivity, but I feel like one of the pieces of advice about friendship that I've received over the years, I found very helpful, is like monitor how much you're giving, how much the other person is giving, try and stay on that same level. Like it's like a dance. I think we've talked about that. I would love to know your perspective on that. I know you talked about it in the book because I think it is such an incredibly complicated thing for those of us with ADHD or neurodiversities.
SPEAKER_00And this goes back to the not rushing into the friendship, right? So people will say to me, you know, I rush into friendships, but it's okay, we're ADHD, that's who we are. And I've been a friendship rusher. I've been in the impulsive friendship cycle. I talk about it in the book. The problem is trust is track record. And so the more you move through the stages of friendship, which I know some of you are like, oh my God, that sounds so boring. I want it now. But the benefit of that is you get to feel people out because you get to decide if they get to be your friend. And I know whenever I say this, I get emails and DMs where people are like, you don't know, no one chooses me. I'm like, I do know, I was not chosen, right? But I do feel like then we get to feel people out. I have a whole chapter on red flags and green flags. And as you move through those stages, you get to see if there are red flags and if it is really lopsided. You know, if you are really the only one giving, if what do they do with your information? If trust is track record, like how do they, you know, do they throw it in your face and say, like, well, really, Sky, you caused that problem yourself. Like that's a big old red flag, right? And I have this ice cream scoop method where I talk about sharing, but I think you could use it for giving too. And it's like you give a scoop and then you see what they do with it. And if they, you know, if they reciprocate and what they do, and then if they give a scoop back, you give another scoop instead of I give and give and give and give, right? And I think we do have a tendency because we're giving kind people to, and also there's an air of like, I feel so excited that someone wants to be my friend, and then we give and give and give. And then it also teaches people that we will give instead of teaching them that we want a more reciprocal friendship. And so I do really feel that that's why the stages of friendship are important. Um, even though I know a lot of us love the dopamine hit of rushing into friendship.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, 100%. So tell me then, like, let's let's imagine when somebody's listening to you and they're going, okay, cool, stages of friendship, got it. I'm gonna look them up. And then they do. They go, Oh my god, I've woke, I've gone way too far down the stage of friendship with somebody, and now, and now I'm like messaging them like, we should catch up again, and I'm getting like a lot of like, yeah, and like nothing is being planned, you know what I mean? So those were kind of in that stage of of a friendship. How does somebody like, is there a way to go back up the stages of friendship a little bit with people that they they might have rushed down those stages a bit?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's so funny because I I went to a conference last year and I I gave my speech about this book that was coming, and I I mentioned impulsive friendship cycles. I don't even think I went into it much because I think I was talking about unmasking, and and I, a bunch of people came up to me afterwards, and they're they were basically asking that question. Like one woman was like, I'm here with someone and they want to like move in with me, and we just met a year ago and I'm not ready, and like I've rushed the friendship. Like, what do I do? I think one of the things I want to say is if someone isn't reciprocating like a scheduling, I always say ask twice and then let it go because you know it might be a sign, and I have a whole, I love a list. So I have lists of like signs someone isn't interested, signs someone needs to slow down. But I also think people are busy, right? And so let it go and let and see what happens. I also think, yes, you can go back in the sense that you can set boundaries. And this is not easy for ADHD people, and I know that. Um, and I have book bonus materials and I have materials on my website, and some of the things that I'm talking about here are with boundaries and stuff, is not in the book. It's more in those materials. But I think in terms of boundaries, you know, you can instead of always, always rushing into things, always saying yes, always being willing to per to be the person who shows up for them, you know, a way to retrench is if you go back to the acquaintance or the emerging friend stage, you would not be lending anyone money. You would not necessarily always be making this, you know, appointment. You would, you know, see them less, right? So you could walk it back and you could also literally look at the numbers. I see them 10 times a week. I'm gonna walk it back to five times a week, right? And look at how can I sort of, you know, bring back that piece where I'm starting to look at their trust and intimacy and how they are to me and I'm trying to get to know them better, right? If you're always hanging out in a way that doesn't allow you to get to know them, you can suggest ways to hang out that allows you to get to know them. So I definitely think you can walk it back. It takes some thought, but I definitely think people have done that. And sometimes the other person is a person who is serially rushing too. And there are times when the friendship does fall apart, but I would argue it probably was gonna fall apart anyway, because there are people who love bomb. I think this is an under-discussed topic. And I think there are people who really love that rush, but then when the rush is over, they're gonna go seek another new person to be friends with. And that's happened to a bunch of my clients where they're like, you know what? I realize that when I think about this person's history, this is what it is. It's this rushing in and then love bombing and then moving on.
SPEAKER_02No, that's it's very interesting. Oh my gosh, Caroline, I could ask you the questions about this for ages. These are many of them very selfish, um, I'm gonna be honest. Um, but I want to I know I have a list of questions and I've asked you none of them. I'm just like, okay, cool. So what do we do now? But I want to ask you a little bit about you. We have a few questions we ask everybody. So what is what would you say is your, you know, what is the thing you're the most proud of professionally that you've done?
SPEAKER_00I think the thing I'm most proud of professionally is actually getting this book published because it was kind of an uphill battle. When I wanted to publish it years ago, the publishing world wasn't ready. And they were kind of like, well, you can't publish a book with diagnostic labels, other than, you know, Ned Hollowell or someone super, super established. And I was like, Yeah, but no, it needs to. Like it it can't just be about general friendship because we have that. And I kind of tirelessly fought for the past six years, and I had helped. Jessica McCabe helped me, Ned Hollowell helped me. I talk about this in the book. I tirelessly pursued it. And, you know, sometimes my intense, tirelessly pursuing things is a bad thing, and sometimes it's a good thing. And in this case, it was a good thing. But I I'm proud that it's being so well received, and I'm proud that I got it done because there were moments where I was just like literally crying to Jessica McCabe, like, it's just never gonna happen. They don't want it. And she was like, Yes, they do. You have to teach them to want it, like, keep going. I'm proud of that most.
SPEAKER_02Amazing, amazing. And yeah, I think it's a great book. I think a lot of people and some people you probably wouldn't expect are gonna are gonna buy it and read it for sure. Well, on the other side of it, do you have a professional failure or embarrassment that you've had and and how have you worked through that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I had this thing back early in my career, which taught me so many lessons, and some of them I talk about in the book, actually, which is that I was in charge, and I was in human resources at the time, and I was in charge of this thing, and it was called the talent master plan. And I was supposed to take like every single employee of a certain level and like go to each manager and get the assessment of them and like who's you know, who do we see going where and sort of map it out. And I didn't have the Excel skills for this, and I think I was I was younger, I was like maybe 30, 29, and I don't think I had some other skills involved in this, but I really didn't want to ask for help, and it was kind of an epic disaster. It wasn't, it was one of those things where like the spreadsheet was all messed up, we couldn't really use a lot of the data, the columns got switched. So it was like, is Sky somebody that we think this of? I don't know, she's messed up with someone else. And I really I always have to relearn this lesson, and I talk about this in the book of like showing and getting help and allowing myself to say, I know you guys have all this faith in me, but I'm in way over my head. And that is like one of those struggles I always have professionally, and that was like one of my biggest failures. And I I did change a lot of things about my approach after that, but I do think it's still my Achilles heel where like I want to kind of make it happen and I want to be like the person who's making it happen. And I need to sometimes learn, like, it's better to admit like I'm in over my head.
SPEAKER_02No, I I really appreciate that story. I think it can be, I think it's a very unique thing to sit in maybe neurodivergences, um, where we are like we come in like very hot with lots of energy, lots of enthusiasm, feeling like we can take on the world, and sometimes people will give you the world to take on, and you have to be like, I'll get back to you on that. Let me scope this.
SPEAKER_00Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_02And then my last question for you is you know, do you have a motto or something you like to say um to yourselves or other people around you for your life?
SPEAKER_00I do. It's a very British thing. I say keep buggering on, like from Winston Churchill. I'm like, just like keep going. You know, I do sometimes have to pause, I do sometimes have to rebuild myself. I definitely am not claiming that I don't, but I do kind of feel like just keep going, keep swimming, right? Dory from finding Nemo, I feel like is is a little bit of how I am. And I I'm sure that's a very ADHD trait, but I do say that to myself and I say it to others. And my kids tease me about it. They're like, okay, we know, just keep swimming.
SPEAKER_02Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Carolyn. Please tell everybody where they can find you and where they can get your amazing book.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. So, um, Friendship Skills for Neurodivergent Adults is the book, and it is anywhere books are sold. It is on audiobooks, so you can use your audible points, and it is available in the UK, in the US, and there's other countries buying it now, so it'll come out in different languages. And then you can find me at Author CarolineM. That's my Instagram, that's my YouTube channel. Everything kind of flows from there. And I love to hear from people. I love people writing me, and they're like, I'm in chapter 11, and here's my question. I love that. I enjoy it. So feel free to write me a message and um and tell me like why you're cynical.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. If you liked it, leave us a five star review. It helps other people learn more about us. And thank you so much to our wonderful team for making us sound good, look good. We couldn't do it without you.