ADHD, Parenting, and the Pressure of Entrepreneurship (With Jessica Shaw)

The school sent her daughter to a desk with her head down because she could not sit still during circle time. That was the moment Jessica stopped waiting for someone else to figure it out.

Jessica Shaw is an award-winning journalist whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Entertainment Weekly, and Vanity Fair. She is the host of Everyone Gets a Juice Box, Understood.org's podcast for parents raising neurodivergent kids. She is also a mom of two teens who think differently, and someone who recognized her own ADHD only after researching her children's.

Skye and Jessica get into what the detective process actually looks like. Why parents are often dismissed first and believed later. How the school system's default response to a kid who cannot conform is to remove them rather than support them. What guilt sounds like when you feel like you should have seen it coming sooner. And why the window between noticing something and getting real support is longer, more expensive, and more isolating than it should be.

What We Cover:

• Why parents are often the last ones taken seriously, and what it takes to keep pushing anyway
• How school systems send a conformity message to neurodivergent kids and what it costs them long-term
• The financial and time barriers to evaluation, and why they fall unevenly across families
• What the detective process looks like when the parent doing the investigating also has undiagnosed ADHD
• Why one parent's decision to reduce work hours for her neurodivergent child was called "trad wife" by colleagues, and what that reveals about the support gap

Connect With Jessica Shaw

• Podcast: https://lnk.to/everyonegetsajuiceboxec!podcast_guest
• ADHD Articles: https://www.understood.org/en/topics/adhd
• ADHD & Women: https://www.understood.org/en/topics/adhd-women
• Understood.org's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/understood/
• Understood.org's Instagram: @Understoodorg

 P.S. Losing work because the admin layer around your business can't keep up with you? Invisible Systems is a 90-day done-for-you sprint where I (Skye) extract the processes from your head, build the operating layer, and find the right person to run it. Six spots left at the founding price, book a call at https://www.unconventionalorganisation.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My kid was in first grade and was really struggling to sit still. Her school they were having, you know, circle time, and all the kids are sitting on the floor, and she couldn't do it. It was too challenging for her. And the teacher ended up sending her to a desk and just kind of had her like put her head down and whatever. That was this moment that really stood out to me of like, no, that's not okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. Today I am so excited to have one of the hosts of one of the podcasts we've been talking about, Everyone Gets a Juice Box, on the podcast. So Jessica is an award-winning journalist and a radio host whose work has appeared in the New York Times, Entertainment Weekly, Vanity Fair. She's also the proud mom of two teens who think differently. And she has, you know, probably got ADHD herself, is what we decided in this conversation. And as well as being the host of Understood's new podcast, Everyone Gets a Juice Box, a space where parents connect over the challenges and triumphs of raising neurodivergent kids. So, Jessica, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Sky. Thank you for having me. Yeah, you're welcome. So I want to know a little bit from you. Where did the idea of neurodiversity first become something for you? Is it something that you learned about through your own experiences, maybe being different as a kid or with your own children? Like when did that surface for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

It was definitely not from my experience as a kid because I think with my generation, there were, there was just less of a conversation around neurodiversity and less of an acceptance of this is neurodiversity, as opposed to just do this, just do it this way. You know what I mean? And then when I had kids and I noticed with my child that, hey, like things, things aren't exactly the same as they are with this other kid or with, you know, another kid in their preschool or whatever it is. I definitely fell into that comparing my child and that raised raised questions. And that led to, you know, evaluations and interventions. And I think in some ways, researching for my children is what allowed me to hold a mirror up to myself.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

And I think a lot of people have that experience where they they don't, they're like, oh, this is just normal, or or you know, all of everyone in our family is like this. And then you have kids, and we do naturally, you know, I have three little kids of my own, you know, we do naturally like, you know, see how they're going. We all suddenly it becomes very important, you know, what week are they in, what year are they in, all that kind of stuff for development? It does become something that you are more aware of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Yeah. I mean, I I remember the exact moment where I was like my therapist actually had given me a book about ADHD in girls, just as far like like, you know, hey, read this. Maybe you can understand some things, whatever. And I brought the book home and I'm reading it, and I'm like, oh my God, is this like my diary? Like, what, what, you know, this is this is like my head like kind of exploded, and that just sort of, you know, it was just very, it was very eye-opening. And and certainly I endlessly fascinated and also saddened and frustrated by the way that research about girls with ADHD is is certainly way behind what it was for boys, and just the different information that was out there for girls, for parents of girls about how ADHD can present differently from boys, which is what most of the researchers.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

Yeah, definitely. I think that's why I got missed as well, because I was definitely on the masking, work really hard to fit in side of the of the spectrum. And you know, you just get the the weird kid label. Looking back though, can you identify some parts of your life that became more obvious if you're like, oh, okay, my kids have this, it's super genetic. This is a diary. You know, what were some of those experiences that made you think, okay, that that felt like maybe looking back, that might have been ADHD. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

I'm trying to even think what they were. Interestingly, I don't know that they were because of similarities to my children per se. It was, it was in some ways what I was reading in the book more just about, you know, organization, like a lot of like executive function type things that that's what I personally connected to and aren't an issue with one of my kids on any level. As you know, and as your listeners know, different people present different ways. There are through lines, but there are like many different kinds of tentacles.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Yeah, 100%. So you said executive functioning. Can you describe a couple of those that really stood out to you as like, oh, this is the diary?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Oh, I mean, just I think about in general, just sort of not being able to keep track of anything. But then if there's like one thing I have to do, I will get it done. Like I'm a journalist. I've never once missed a deadline. I have never, you know, I am on the ball with the thing that is like directly in front of me. But making my kids' doctors, annual doctor's appointment, I still remember, I think about this all the time. When I was in college, I literally forgot, not forgot, I didn't sign up for classes one semester. And I just didn't do it, which is so I look back at it and I'm like, what on earth? You know, as luck would have it, in the very, very, very 11th hour, like an hour before the registrar was closing, I was able to get it in. But at that point, all of my peers had had signed up for classes, you know, days and weeks earlier. But it's like stuff like that just stood out to me.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

No, 100%, you know, and it's I I definitely relate to that. You reminded me I was the kid where I think it was my parents, or someone had to be like, right, just a reminder, check you've looked at every page of the exam. Because sometimes they have exam pages on the back. Make sure you don't stop. Because I did that before.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Oh, yeah. I mean, I and I don't know, are you a leave your keys at home person? Because I mean, that was I it got to the point, and you know what, listen, we all we all come up with coping skills. And and I now when I walk out the door, I say to myself, out loud, keys, wallet, phone, keys, wallet, phone. And now as I get older and need glasses, I have moved on to keys, wallet, phone, glasses.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah. Well, this is kind of why I was I was curious to have you on because I feel like, you know, some people might be listening to this and being like, oh, well, I don't have kids, you know, so this isn't relevant for you, me. But everybody who's listening to this is struggling with ADHD symptoms. So you were a child. And and, you know, one of the things that I really appreciated about your podcast was it reminded me of my own experiences being a child. Because my kids are very young, you know, they're not necessarily in school yet. We we haven't really got there to the the age, although it was good to kind of prep, read that and be like, right, okay, detective mode. Like it does you can be the sort of person in your kids' life who is who is doing that and that is valuable. Yeah, it was it was really great. And I particularly wanted to, you know, he talked about a lot of things and we'll get into them. One of the things you spoke about was dyscalculia. But I was I found out when I was in doing my PhD that I might have dyscalculia, which for those of you who don't know is is sort of like dyslexia for numbers, specifically basic numbers. Like you can still go on to be really great at statistics or or you know coding and things like that. And I I went on to do all of that stuff, but those basic numbers are a struggle. So it was amazing to have somebody on your podcast talking about their child's experiences of dyscalculea.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely one of the things I love about the podcast, one of the things I love about adjusta.org, as as you know, is that it's not this is the one thing about a neurodivergent kid that we're going to talk about. I love that the podcast talks about, you know, hey, this is how this parent, you know, approached their kid with ADHD. This is how this parent approached their kid with with dyslexia or figuring things out or dyscalculia. I, I mean, I have to be honest, I had never heard the word dyscalculea before speaking to this parent. I didn't know what it was. I wasn't familiar with it. And it was, I wasn't even sure how to pronounce it when I saw it written out. I was like, is it dyscalculea? Is it dysculture?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I'm still not sure I'm saying it right, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I think you're good. I think you're good. But it was, you know, it was, it was so important to hear from her. And it was also so interesting that that regardless of the uh diagnosis or whatever, how there's such a common thread in what parents experience, you know, as far as being that. I love that you used a couple minutes ago, you used the word detective. And that's something that that I think about a lot and that we end up talking about a lot on on the podcast because parents really do have to become detectives. And by the way, as as you said, we ourselves become detectives about our own histories and our own whatever things that that we have challenged, struggle with, or things that we excel at or whatever. It is it has been very interesting to me that watching and listening to the stories of the detective work, of figuring out, hmm, I'm seeing this thing that my kid is going through. Now I'm gonna, you know, put a few things together. I'm gonna figure out whose voices to listen to, which ones to tune out, because as you know, like everyone's got an opinion, and I'm gonna figure out the best way to approach this for my kid.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

So take me through then, you know, you mentioned that there's kind of a pattern to to parents who came on your podcast. Tell me about that journey that parents often have seemed to go on when they start realizing their kid might be neurodiverse like them, or not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Or not. Yeah, yes, exactly. Well, I think something that's very interesting that um I have heard a lot and and I certainly experienced as well, was this moment of a parent noticing something and then having maybe other people say to them, like, no, you're overreacting, or that, no, I don't know, things, you know, developmental things can happen at different points with every kid. Don't don't read into it. A lot of the negating that can go on, and how much a parent needs to sort of really trust their gut to observe and gather the intel, you know, or or the clues and to put it in the you know, that detection metaphor, and to figure out what's going on. And that's that's been a real recurring theme, which is interesting and also like I feel like important to note, even at school sometimes, which is the place where we would want our kids to be the most cared for and kind of like their challenges really, really explored and supported. Sometimes it's it's really been on the parents, you know, on the parents like full stop.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

Yeah, I think that's incredibly true. I'm wondering as you go through this, and obviously you only feel free to share what you're comfortable with, has it made you think about your own parents and and their how they did or did not do that detective work?

SPEAKER_00 12:16

You know, I don't know. I mean, how they did their own, I really don't kind of faults them because I also truly think that attitudes were very different. What what someone might say is neurodivergent now was was not considered something that a kid would need support for, you know, and I I don't say that as like, you know, it was there, there was just there was less education about it. There was less of an understanding about, oh, this is a this is a thinking difference and this is a learning difference. It was more, it wasn't my parents in particular, it was kind of society and the educational system and slash the world.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

So do you feel like, you know, as you've heard these stories from other parents, do you feel like it's really brought back to you how much detective work you then did for your own kids? Because do you think that came from a change in society and and how we sort of recognize this as being something worth pursuing? Do you feel like it was just something you did yourself? Like, where did your detectiveness come from?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

It's interesting that you asked that because I I do wonder, I was gonna say that I really because I didn't, I don't know that I had much education on different development, like neurodivergent development and and so that said, I think that there's just things in in the air, you know what I mean? So I feel like there, no, I do. I think that there is a certain understanding of things and acceptance of things and a support of things that go on now that even if I wasn't necessarily like 100% tuned into it, I was somewhere in in my mind, I was aware. So when I saw maybe my kid developing at a different rate or or or having challenges in in something, you know, it was it was enough that I could say, oh, I need to be on top of this.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You you know, society is a powerful thing, and even just the the knowledge that we were gonna monitor our kids maybe a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. I mean, I think about a time when when my kid was in first grade and was really struggling to kind of, you know, sit still, the whatever her school they were having, you know, circle time and all the kids are sitting on the floor, and she couldn't do it. It was it was too challenging for her. And a teacher ended up sending her to a desk and just kind of had her like put her head down and whatever. And that really stood out, that was this moment that really stood out to me of like, no, that's not okay. That's not the way to support this child, to kind of other them and to say, you go off to the side. And in some ways, it felt like that's sort of what would have been done when I was growing up. Of like, it was it was kind of like, listen, conform, sit still, and because period, that's how it's done, or you're out of here. And so I was aware of that moment and that that I wasn't okay with that moment, and okay with that being the message that was sent to my children. If you are, if you struggle with doing X, that means you don't get to be a part of the community.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Yeah, that yeah, it's so true. And I'm and I am curious then, do you feel like you had a moment growing up where you had uh conform and you either did it, but you didn't feel comfortable doing it, or or maybe you you didn't, you felt othered.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

I don't I don't think I felt that way in particular. I more felt like I remember not so much when I was young, but when I was already, you know, later in high school. I remember moments of just feeling like I remember being on like a school retreat and just feeling like there was just too too many stimuli. Like I just needed out a little bit. And there was just too much kind of sensory input. And I remember just like kind of, you know, we were slipping on like bunk beds and whatever, and I remember just sort of going into a corner and and my friends being like, what are you doing? And and I knew that I needed to be away. I don't know that I had the understanding or the language to say, this is why I need to be away, but you know, but that was yeah. I I can't say that I remember anything as as a younger kid, though.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

No, it's interesting you said that going to be away. I think that overstimulation sometimes becomes important, especially school. And the reason it's an interesting conversation to talk about on your podcast is school is such a constrictive time for children. It's it's and in some ways it's a very constrictive time for parents as well. Like even now, with all of the support and all of the wonderful things that people are doing, there is a feeling of like, you know, you have children, they're very little. You're, you know, you have people that you might see and connect with, and you've got a sense of like, oh, okay, this is different, maybe this isn't, but you know, kids are different. And then in school, it's very quickly there there is a forcing function of group identity that that that has to be sort of grappled with.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Absolutely. And then and group identity, and then I mean, listen, this my kids went to public school in New York City, and you know, there's also when there's one teacher and 31 kids or whatever, there's there might not necessarily be as many eyes to you know, on all of the needs of all of the kids, and the message there is yeah, you better conform because that's the only way that this works.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

For a lot of people, that can be quite confronting. And you know, for people, even people who don't identify as neurodiverse, like school isn't always the best because of that. So, okay, so take me through, you know, with your own kids. You're in the school, there is that forcing function, you're in that not knowing phase. You don't know what's going on. Describe to me how that felt.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

I think it was it was a lot of emotions. I mean, I think there was anger and frustration that day at that particular teacher. I think there was concern and of uh-oh, is my kid gonna be okay? You know, sadness at what she must have felt being sent away, fear that I would not get to a place where I understood what how her brain worked, um, how she thought differently, and how she could be supported. There was a lot. And that feeling of like, I failed already because I should have seen this, I should have, I should have been on top of this, you know, 10 minutes ago. And then there's that, you know, I think when parents start to sort of put pieces together, there's that feeling of like, oh, I I gotta get an evaluation yesterday and I gotta get these services in place like this morning. And it's a process. It is a process.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

It's a because it's a journey. You know, I I often say this to people who ask me about ADHD medication, which I do not obviously prescribe or or have any, you know, advice to give outside of it's a journey. And I feel the same way about the process of evaluation. It's a journey. Like the person that you speak to at the beginning might not be the person that gives you the answer that you're looking for, and you might have to go to somebody else. And and it takes a long time, longer than you would want, probably, to get something that you and your kid is comfortable with.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah. And and throw into that sometimes with some of the parents that I talk to, and everyone gets a juice box. You know, maybe they have another kid and they're they're still trying to meet meet the needs of uh of that kid. Maybe they have a job, maybe they have a partner. I mean, there's eight million other things going on. And I, you know, I don't know how it is there, but certainly things like neuropsyches in in the States and in New York certainly are like five grand, at least, you know, five thousand dollars. And and they're not everyone has the financial means and privilege to to be able to do some of the tests. And what kind of message is that? If you can afford, if you can afford this obscenely expensive evaluation, then your kid can get support. But if you can't, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Well, that's exactly why I say that we are, you know, we're very comfortable including people who are diagnosed based on what they feel and not necessarily based on the official diagnosis, because, you know, like I said, we're not prescribing anything in this environment. We're just talking about research and strategies that work for you because it is hard. And it it, you know, it is in some ways, there's that gatekeeping element to it and time. You know, it can take a very long time, even if it is somewhere where it's not as expensive. I want to kind of dig in there on this idea of somebody is getting a an evaluation for their child. There's a sense of like, I have to do this yesterday. There's this fear that, you know, maybe this isn't gonna work, or or you know, I imagine and I and I know from my own experiences that there can be a lot of guilt there as well for for, you know, what happened? Was it me? And there are people out there who are happy to feel that as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah, I mean, uh certainly there's there's Since I I was I'm thinking about an interview of a parent that I spoke to yesterday who was who was saying that what her parents' reaction was and just the you know a little bit of like oh was this you was this you that wasn't your DNA kind of thing and yeah I mean I think there's there are a lot of complex feelings especially for people that that may have gone through their entire lives undiagnosed or or unaware that it just it kind of ends up like I feel like there's just 20,000 question marks over your head all the time.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah, and I think that's why I thought the podcast was very powerful because it it did provide a sort of safe, soft landing place for those conversations. And and also the ones about, you know, the more complicated ones, like you said, having jobs and other kids. I know you had somebody on who she had quite a high power job. She was away a lot and her kid had language problems. And the conversation for her wanting to go back and and you know be with her kid a little bit more was like, oh, you're you're a trad wife. You're a trad wife. Not understanding the complexity of the situation and also just inappropriate in general. But you know, the fact that this is if you have a kid and you know, or if you were a kid who needs extra support, like that does take more energy and time than the amount that we are like quote unquote expected to give in any particular society or culture.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

You know what I loved about her story? I mean, yes, that that story is horrifying. And just in general, like, don't be horrible to people, don't be horrible to colleagues, don't be horrible to parents, don't be horrible to kids. What a terrible, terrible slash illegal thing to say to someone, you know? And one of the things I love about that episode and about her was that the way that she got her kid to start talking. Her kid had kind of like really was not, was not speaking a lot. There was a people were concerned. And I love that kind of sixth sense and that gut feeling of I know that I'm gonna try this thing that is in no book, that is in no doctor or whatever is saying to do this. But but as a detective, I'm gonna see, see if this is something that resonates, see if this is something that is is meaningful. And I and I love that about her journey and about her story.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yeah, I agree. It's that coming back to that detective idea. Is there a story that you heard on the podcast as you've been speaking with these parents that it just went in a completely a different way? Like you thought you were going in to have one conversation, you came out having another conversation. Did any of that happen?

SPEAKER_00 24:42

I mean, it kind of happens all the time. I feel like every time I talk to a parent, I'm so uh I'm so curious what their story is. I mean, I think of one parent who was, we were talking a lot about one of his kids, and where the conversation kind of ended up going was he had an older child who also was diagnosed later. And the way that he approached the older kid was the daughter, and the younger kid is the son, the way that he spoke about, I want to do things differently for my son than I did with my daughter. I want to different diagnoses, but nonetheless, my approach is going to be different as opposed to, okay, let's just focus on this one kid. And I just, I don't know, I love, I love, I loved talking to him. I loved the way that that even as parents, it's sort of like how people think like, How are you as a parent? And it's such an up and down and journey, and you know, it's all over the place. And that he was able to say, to, to be reflective enough, I guess self-reflective enough, to say, this is what I did, and here's how I'm gonna do things a little bit differently. And here's how I think I can better support my kid. Because especially I think when it's when it's your first kid who's who's neurodivergent, or or and by the way, it's your first kid, period. It's tough. You're figuring things out on the fly, and you know, and just having, I don't know, just having the the wisdom to be critical about how you were and how you might be better. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Well, we just have three questions that we like to ask everybody. So I'd love to ask you them. So I want to know from you what is a professional achievement that you are most proud of?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

You know, it's so funny even that you're asking that because I didn't even think of this, but now that I'm thinking about it, it so completely plays into ADHD. But it's a, I would say that it is an article that I wrote for the New York Times about my my father and his family were refugees in World War II when they escaped Paris and like climbing over mountains, whatever. And I did this story kind of retracing his steps. And being able to do that, I think it was felt like a real achievement to me because I feel like there, you know, I think so many of us go through life thinking someday I'm going to do X, Y, or Z. And it was my, it was, it was my someday, and and I did it. That said, now when I'm thinking about it now, I'm remembering that I there were documents that my dad had, like letters that his father had written him, and and like a union card, and and the the manifest of the ship he ended up growing up in Cuba and like whatever. And I had my sister sent me these documents, like PDFs of these documents, over and over and over. And and I'd be like, Can you just send them one more time? I have no idea what can you just send them in. The number, I mean, the number of times she had to keep sending them to me was truly like shocking. Shocking, even as I look back at it.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, yeah. Well, but good, good on your sister for pushing through with that with that executive functioning support. We love that. And then on the other side, what is a professional embarrassment or failure you've had and and how did you handle it? Not well.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Well, I'll just, I mean, I'm trying to think of, I think maybe I I I moderate a lot of events and do a lot of interviews. And I think maybe if there's an interview that that didn't go well or didn't, you know, I felt like didn't achieve what I wanted it to or whatever, and how did I deal with it? You know, for sure 100% went into like a pit of self-loathing.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Yeah, and I think we all have all have had those moments. So I appreciate you sharing that. I always like to ask because you know, sometimes people will listen to people on podcasts and be like, oh my God, they're so amazing.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

I could never be them. Yeah, no, oh my gosh, please. And then, and you know what the thing is, and I always say this to my other sister all the time like as bad as it was, it's gonna be, you had to just like let it feel like crap and just like just let yourself be in hell. And then at some point, it's not gonna be that bad, you know? And I find that giving myself permission to just kind of like replay it and just be like, this was so hard or whatever, kind of allows me to wake up the next day and be like, okay, left that behind.

SPEAKER_01 29:25

That's so interesting. I love that. And if you on that note, like if you had a quote for your life, something you like to say, share with other people, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 29:33

I was I was thinking about I I'm a real like theater, musical theater kid. And so I've been lately listening to a lot of Stephen Sondheim, listening to the musical Merrily We Roll Along, which is which is one of my favorites. And I saw it, you know, here when it was on Broadway with Jonathan Groff and Dan Radcliffe and Lindsay Mendez, and they're so amazing. And I was listening to this one song over and over today, just this morning, and it was so meaningful to me. And I love when you find something that might not have been like a thing that you loved so much, and then all of a sudden, depending on what your headspace is, like it just really connects. And there's a lyric in that song of I'm trying, um, I don't want to butcher it. I think it's someday just began. So simple, just three words. And it's just, it's I love, I love the immediacy of someday just began. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Well, thank you so much for coming on, Jessica. Tell everybody where they can find you and where they can find the juice box podcast. Although, if you guys don't know that at this point, you guys have to watch it because we've got it everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Well, you can listen to everyone gets a juice box wherever you get your podcasts. And understood.org, by the way, has just incredible resources in general, whether for yourself or if you're a parent for your for your kids, and has a bunch of other podcasts too. But obviously, I'm gonna tell people to listen to everyone gets a juice box because um because it's mine and and and just because it's like I don't, it just feels like just a safe pull-up a chair and we're just talking. As you said, like we're not sort of saying, and this is what you should do to fix this thing. It's just parents talking.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the ADHD Skills Lab. If you liked it, leave us a five star review. It helps other people learn more about us. And thank you so much to our wonderful team for making us sound good, look good. We couldn't do it without you.