Overthinking Games
Overthinking Games is a podcast about what video games can teach us. We look at video games through an educational and critical lens.
Overthinking Games
Ep 63: Environment and Setting
This week, Dempsey’s real-life action adventure game called “being a documentarian” leads us into dark, claustrophobic caves, wide open worlds, environmental story-telling, and the power of setting in video games.
Send us an email with your favorite video game setting, or a place you’d love to see a game set; we’d love to hear from you! overthinkinggamespodcast@gmail.com
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It was very beautiful. It was very surreal. It is very claustrophobic. I didn't think I was gonna struggle with that, and I did. Um in the geology of the area that I'm at, the gems, the uh the caves grow like crystals inside of them. And they're like pretty and everywhere we were was like non-mapped, like we don't think anybody's been there before. Uh maybe like once or twice in like the 50s and 80s. Um and but which means like there's little knives sticking up all over the cave, and then it's obviously it's not big enough to walk, so like you're just crawling on your hands and knees over these knives, and then like I am the biggest one by far on this trip. Uh and so there's a lot of places where they could fit through relatively easily that I definitely got stuck on, and it wasn't because like the hole was necessarily too small, although it was, but it was just that like, and then also there's knives sticking into you while you're trying to go through this very small hole, and it shredded my clothes, like that's like it, like it shredded the clothes that I was wearing, like that, and it cut me so much. Anyways, welcome to Overthinking Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us. Um, and joining me as always is Katie.
SPEAKER_05:Hi.
SPEAKER_01:Katie.
SPEAKER_05:I'm Katie.
SPEAKER_01:She has a complicated sound, so if Katie's sound quality sounds different, that's why her her situation is is complicated. And then we have Seth.
SPEAKER_00:It's really hot here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, something about global warming. Um, so the first the first thing that we're uh gonna do, uh today's topic, it is Wednesday, June 25th, and today's topic is environment and setting. And so being in some kind of spectacular natural environments myself over the past couple weeks, um, I've been thinking about how environments add to a setting. I'm gonna go first uh because I have not played that much. I've probably put another like two hours into Death Stranding, and that's about it. And I have no real extra commentary to add to that game. So, Katie, what have you been playing this week?
SPEAKER_05:Uh I've also been playing Death Stranding. Um, I'm not terribly farther than I was the last time I talked to you, though I have paved half of a road, and the BTs don't attack you when you're on a road, and I like that. That's nice. That is the uh biggest perk I have noticed so far. Maybe I'm wrong. No.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:I had a bike. Okay, so this is what I wondered. Did I fuck up or something? Because I made it to the next section, Port Knot or Lake Knot City or whatever, and now they've given me this like hydraulic leg suit instead of my bike. I don't have a bike anymore.
SPEAKER_01:So I forgot where, but if you do enough of the missions, eventually you'll get the blueprints for a bike, and then you can um and then you can get a bike.
SPEAKER_05:Why didn't I take the bike with me onto the boat?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you can't.
SPEAKER_05:Because any self- You can't do that. You can't?
SPEAKER_01:No. You have to manufacture a new bike. You can't take anything with you.
SPEAKER_05:It's ridiculous. Okay. Well, okay. That answers my question though, because I was like, did I mess up? Was I supposed to bring the bike and I just left it on the port or something somehow? I'm just hoofing it all over the countryside again.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the the best thing to do is go to the mules right away and then steal their trucks.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, I didn't know I could do that. I don't like the mules. I avoid them. They're scary.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they are. So, but if you go to them, like if you go to them right away, you can steal their truck, and then deliveries become a lot more manageable.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, because I've been struggling with weight and everything, even with my extra hydraulic pants. So, okay, that's good to know. Um I think it's interesting that uh Kojima has made uh delivering packages the um pathological behavior rather than the ordering and receiving of packages. I think that's really interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Do you feel like he's being paid by Amazon to be like it's okay?
SPEAKER_05:I don't know. I think well, he's like he's like, well, all of this is just extremely sick. And now it's become an actual mental illness, an actual cult of delivery.
SPEAKER_01:The uh the prep have you met any preppers or things like that?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I've gone to the first three um like bunker people.
SPEAKER_01:They become less and less reasonable in a way that I was not expecting, but really appreciate. For for example, this is uh this is a small spoiler, but um one is a cosplayer, that's their name, just the cosplayer. And so like they like they start out as like really like regular, kind of like regular dystopian post-apocalyp characters, and then they quickly like morph into like really strange and random like pop culture archetypes. Which is good.
SPEAKER_05:Well, the um the engineer is requesting a pizza right now, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's that's time. That's timed. You gotta get there, and it's very sort of and yeah, that's time.
SPEAKER_05:30 minutes, that's plenty of time.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But yeah, you can't do anything else though. Yeah, so I I've been playing that and then I've been playing um Arcade Paradise. I told you guys about Arcade Paradise, the laundromat slash arcade management game.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yeah, it's where where you go and you try to play video games and then go work for like two minutes and then go back to playing video games.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, exactly. It's actually, I'm like, I just need to get a little further. Oh fuck, chores, okay. I'm like, wait, why am I doing this to myself? I could just play arcade games. I don't actually have to do it. Like, I don't actually have to do laundry. But um, you know what? Weirdly, the the laundry is also fun. So uh I've been playing that. I've been playing Crush House, which is my dystopian 1990s reality TV show um filming game. It's very good. And uh I'm playing Warzone. My husband left um for Ireland. My husband left not permanently, just for a while, um, to Ireland. And so I have the next seven weeks to really play as much video games as I like without having to consult any other human person. And I'm kind of tempted to get really good at Warzone again because my skills have been slipping, and so I'm like, maybe I should take this time to play too much Warzone and get good at it again because I'm kind of medium, I'm mid and considered playing seven straight weeks of old school RuneScape. Is that what you're doing now? No, that was last year, yeah. Right, but now you live with somebody and you can't do that, can you?
SPEAKER_00:That's correct, yes.
SPEAKER_05:Correct. Okay, yeah. So that's what I've been up to. What about you, Seth?
SPEAKER_00:I'm glad you asked. Uh I've been playing six straight now. Um I so I've been out of town the last couple days. I was visiting my parents up in Ohio. So no game.
SPEAKER_05:I thought your parents lived in Philadelphia still or something.
SPEAKER_00:No, my parents live in like central Ohio.
SPEAKER_05:I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_00:My uh my brother is just finishing up his time in the Air Force, and so he's sort of going on his his home tour before he starts his like out-of-military job. So I was visiting him and him, his wife, my parents. Um last couple days, I brought my PlayStation because I wanted I was gonna have my dad try and play the Elden Ring DLC. And then I realized he put his character into a new game plus, and it would probably take me a couple hours to get his character to the spot where they could get into the DLC, so I said I'm not doing that. Um I showed my dad and my brother Night Rain, and my dad was like, I don't think I would enjoy that. And I went, okay. Which he plays games slow. His one Elden Ring character has 330 hours on it. Um he likes to take things at a slow pace, and Night Rain is not a slow pace game. Um, but he thought the idea was cool. He was just like, I would enjoy it. It was actually really funny. So uh the drive out to my parents or drive back from my parents is like seven, eight hours. So had a long car ride, you know, today with my girlfriend. We left my parents' place at like 7 a.m. Uh got back here at three-ish. And at some point in the trip, I was like, you know, I need to like play a game when I get back to the apartment so that I have something to talk about on the podcast tonight. Because I've just been playing Night Rain and Blue and Sire Defense for like the last three weeks. So I played a new game. Um I forget if I got an ad or something for this game called uh is it called Void War? Let me double check.
SPEAKER_01:Is it a phone game?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's not. It's a it's a it's a real game. Um joking. Not really. Uh it's a game called Void War. It's an FTL-like. Uh so FTL is a roguelite that came out back in like 2012. Uh it's like a ship management game, uh, like roguelite ship management, uh, where you have to like change the power on the different systems around and like individually control each of your borders. Uh you know, individually control each of your like weapon systems. Great game, fantastic game. Love FTL. So I got this ad, I think I got an ad for this game that was like, hey, it's FTL, but it takes place in a legally distinct Warhammer 40,000 universe. And I went, hey, I like both of those things a lot. Um so I decided to get it today. It's only like 20 bucks, and it's great. I um I played a round of it and I beat my first round, which I was pretty happy about. I have a lot of time in FTL though. Like FTL is one of my most played games on my Steam library. Um, let me see. Just because I I have about 150 hours in FTL. Um the Steam review page is also pretty good. It's got like 90% positive reviews, with most of the complaints being like, uh, the game's a little esoteric mechanically, not enough content, which I'm like, whatever. It's fun. So I'm not gonna complain. Especially for like 20 bucks. Um the other problem is uh FTL as a game has a very big mod that was worked on for like a number of years. It's sort of it's called FTL Multiverse. It's sort of like the way the community plays now because like you've had a team of mod developers over the course of like the past couple years working on it, and so like a new game comes out that's m mechanically based on the original game, and people are like, um, actually, it feels like there's not as much content as the mod that people spent five or six years working on, and I'm like, yeah, that's how game development works, but it's fun, so it's hard to complain. Um, but you play it and you're like, oh, this is FTL 2. Uh like they don't hide the fact that they just like remade FTL. Um, it literally works mechanically exactly the same way. Uh, and then it is a very clearly legally distinct Warhammer 40,000 universe, which is fine because I like the Warhammer 40,000 universe, and I really like the gameplay mechanics of FTL. So like it's a winning formula all around. It's hard to complain.
SPEAKER_05:Is it just like a re-skinning then? Is that how you would explain it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a legally distinct reskin, but like it incorporates some of its own like mechanical differences. Um the the two things that stood out to me is like they have equipment for your crew members, so it's not just like, oh, send a crew member in. It's like, oh, I can equip him with like an axe and a body armor that has like you know bonus health, bonus damage, whatever. And uh, I mean they changed like a few other minor things about like how healing works and like you know, blah blah blah. Like the small kind of changes that you make so that you're like, it's not the same game. Um but that game's really fun. I'm glad I had something else to talk about on the podcast. Um Night Rain is also continuing to be fantastic. I don't remember where I was at with Night Rain the last time I talked about it, but uh I have now made a spreadsheet of all of the characters in Night Rain and all of the bosses so that I can keep track of like making sure that I beat all the bosses with all the characters. Night Rain itself as a game has also evolved in an interesting way, and I'll probably want to do like an episode or something about this at some point where they put out an announcement like mid-last week that, like, hey, we're dropping a harder version of the one boss, but you're only gonna be able to fight it for like a week, and then we're gonna bring it back down the line, and we're gonna rotate it out for like a harder version of a different boss, which is fine. I like it actually a lot, because I feel like it's been like an incentive to go back and like re-keep playing Night Rain, even if like, even if I was like, okay, I don't want to do all bosses with all characters, I would very much go back just to be like, oh shit, new harder version of the boss I've beat a couple times already. Let me see if I can do that. So is Night Rain turning into a live service game? Like, they're kind of continually pushing out like a content schedule, but it's not paid for, like, it's not like a battle pass. Like, is it a live service game if they're just like, here's more content on a weekly basis for free?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it would be Helldivers is considered a live service game, and you don't have to pay more money past the I mean you can pay more money, but you don't, there's no real reason to pay more money past the asking price.
SPEAKER_00:But see, for Night Rain, you can't pay more money. Like, there's nothing else to pay money for from software, has just been like, here's more content.
SPEAKER_05:Do you think that that was like content that they had always intended to have on the game, but that they couldn't add in before launch?
SPEAKER_00:No, I think this is an intentional strategy because keep it going fresh. Yeah, because you know the the problem with multiplayer games, right? Is like a multiplayer game drops, everybody's really excited, your peak player base is like right when the game drops off, and then it it sort of falls off slowly over time. So like you need to keep adding content to keep you know people still playing your game. So I think FromSoftware intentionally designed like a content schedule to like keep people interested in the game, but they're not like chart, it's not like a cash grab money making scheme. It's just like part of the actual like launch design of the game.
SPEAKER_01:And you said they're timed, so like if you miss it, if you miss that window to beat that boss, you just have to like that's it.
SPEAKER_00:So if you miss, so it was like hard boss number one was I think from like Wednesday last week to today. Hard boss number two is like Wednesday today to Wednesday next week. I think when we get through this like current cycle of hard extra hard bosses, which is I think it's like three or four, I think they said like we're just gonna put them in. I don't think they said it like that, but they essentially said like they'll be coming back.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so it's not like a strict, like limited time content, like FOMO, like you'll be able to redo these again it just like after I guess the initial hype has died down about it.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:If it was monetized, I would be like, this is predatory, but instead it's completely free. So I'm just sitting here being like, I guess they're geniuses who just like understand how modern multiplayer games need to exist. Also,$40 game, by the way.
SPEAKER_05:Like Yeah. That's my thing. I was like, maybe it's to get people who are like, well, I don't know if it's worth it for the for what it is. And this is to like, I don't know. I'm so cynical. I'm like, they can't possibly just be nice to their player base.
SPEAKER_01:I think that I I think my theory is that it is testing ideas and proving concepts for Blood Dawn or whatever their next game is.
SPEAKER_00:Uh Dusk Bloods.
SPEAKER_01:Dusk Bloods, because that game has no identity outside of being multiplayer. So I think Night Ring. So so I think so. I think Night Ring like borrowed some of the legitimacy from Elden Ring, and then I think it's a lower risk uh thing uh to figure out how to do multiplayer well, and then with Dusk Bloods, you want all that stuff figured out by the time that launches, and so I think I think there's probably some learning process going on for FromSoft.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know. It just feels like it feels I don't know if like very consumer friendly is the right way to put it, because I think this is all it's always content that was meant to be in the game. Like it's not like the game released and they were like, oh my god, we need immediately need to start like coming up with more content. Because like it's really well put together and it's really well designed new content. Like, and it's not just a new boss, it was like a whole new currency that you get just from the harder bosses with like new upgrades and alternate ways to get skins and like some quality of life things put in there. So like I think it's in it's like an intentional game design for like the modern multiplayer era, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Which is just like fascinating.
SPEAKER_00:I have no idea what Dempsey's doing. What?
SPEAKER_03:She's like, look at my beautiful ringlet and what it looks like in the light, and I'm like looking at it. I'm like, that is a beautiful ringlet. What are you doing? I'm so distracted, I can't even listen to Seth.
SPEAKER_01:Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.
SPEAKER_00:God, I'm at the end of my rant, but Night Rain's really good. Uh, I actually did not get to beat the first hard boss, um, especially with my play group, because Night Rain is three-player multiplayer. Um, and I had two of my best friends from high school uh I always I hang out with all the time, and they really enjoyed Night Rain and Elden Ring. So we played through a lot of Night Rain together. And then uh I forget exactly what day the boss came, the new boss came out. I want to say the new boss came out on like Thursday or something. The my one friend was busy, so like Friday was our only day to like all play together, and then like Friday night, my friend lost power, and then he had his power out through like Sunday morning, and then first thing Sunday morning, I left to go visit my parents, and I was gone for like the next three days.
SPEAKER_05:A whole weekend opportunity of gaming dashed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, completely dashed. He was uh he was not very happy about it.
SPEAKER_01:So very sad.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, that reminds me. I actually I've been playing two other games. Um, I've been playing uh Baldur's Gate 3 as well with my brother. That's what made you that's what made me think of it, Seth, because um my internet is so spotty that our date our dreams were almost dashed with gaming, but fortunately the Wi-Fi came back on and I was able to play. But yeah, um Baldur's Gate 3 is really good game. Weird.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. Who to guess?
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so um so we're talking about environment and setting today, and there's a couple things that have been making me think about this. First of all, um during my travels this summer, I'm not going actually very far, just to different environments. Um, I'm gonna be in the mountains uh for like a week. And it's nice to just like be in the mountains, even if I'm like just walking and just like hiking, but like just being in that environment is means a lot and is very beautiful. And I have been uh I usually watch YouTube videos uh to go to sleep to. So I'll throw something on um in the screen uh that is in my room. And recently I have been watching Hollow Knight playthroughs. And uh I have why it's got a great soundtrack. It's a there's so many reasons why why. So I have I've been watching Hollow Knight playthroughs, and I realized how much Hollow Knight impacted my view of my caving experience, which has been kind of strange, strange to understand, because obviously Hollow Knight is a very subterranean game, you're kind of going through caves the whole time, and I've never been caving before, and so like putting like 30 hours into Hollow Knight was like probably the most robust experience I had with like caving. And so as I was going through these caves in real life, I was thinking about the the experience of the of uh our little friend. What's he's not the hollow knight, he's the what is he? What's the main character? He's just the knight.
SPEAKER_00:Uh he's uh the empty vessel.
SPEAKER_01:There we go. Yeah, the empty vessel. And so I was thinking of our the experience of our little friend, the empty vessel. Um and and I I I've told this story before, but like like um I worked an overnight job where I would have to do like one thing every half hour and then could just like chill out for the half hour, and then I would go and do a round uh in this uh location that I worked overnight, and so and it was in the winter time, and I and so I played Breath of the Wild, and that was like I think really important for me to feel like I wasn't like in dark coldness all the time, and I so and so I gotta experience something like and I think the setting of Breath of the Wild is always gonna be very important to me. Um, and I I think so like some games have no setting, like I would say like Bilatro was just a UI game. Um and and maybe I don't know, like maybe Luck be a landlord, maybe it doesn't really have like a setting or something. Um but like so some games have no setting, and then other games are like all setting. So I would say like Outer Wilds really has no way of interacting with the environment other than setting. Like there's no combat, um, there's no like you're not like racing or doing like an action, you're kind of doing these environmental puzzles the whole time. Um, and and that's a setting that means a lot to me, my enthusiasm for space and science and how existential it is. Like, so that setting itself, even without the mystery, I think that setting is very important to me. And then games like Subnautica have settings that very emotionally affected me. Um Subnautica because it was so scary, I couldn't actually finish it. Um so I was just wondering if you guys had games where the the environment, the setting itself was like a big piece of of what you took away from the game. So like the like and it's not all games. So like I would say like Horizon, for example, for me, is a game that has a fantastic setting, but it's mostly the robot dinosaurs that I associate with that game. And if I and if I anyways, and if I want to think about like beautiful open world games, I would go to like Red Dead or Breath of the Wild before I would go to Horizon. But so like it's not all games that I feel this connection to setting, but some games, these settings and the environment, do have like an outsized impact of how I connect with that game.
SPEAKER_05:It's funny that you mentioned Horizon straight off because that's actually the one that I was going to mention as a game whose setting I connect with. But but the reason why is because I mean I grew up in Utah. Okay, and a good deal of the game takes part in Utah. It takes like happens in Utah and takes place in Utah, um, or Utah-like regions. Um so the arches, the Red Rock, all of that stuff, those are places that I grew up going to and and and exploring. Sure, sure, yeah. And so to see those in a video game in such a wild, uh such a wild way, um it's very, very cool, and I love it. I'm like, hey, I've been to a place like that, you know? Like, so for me, it really touched me.
SPEAKER_01:And that's exactly my experience with Red Dead 2, because Red Dead 2 like was very much inspired by the places that I have lived before, not just the Midwest, but really specific locations in Wyoming, Nebraska, and South Dakota. Um, and and towns that share the same name and are very obviously inspired by so yeah, I would say the that experience you had with Horizon I had with Red Dead 2.
SPEAKER_00:I was I was gonna make the same relationship, but in the nerdy sense, which is like the whole setting topic first made me think of like Breath of the Wild.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:For a couple different reasons. One, I think just like the setting itself is beautiful in a lot of ways, but in like a very nerdy way, like I think there's a similar experience, Katie, to what you're describing, like playing in the Legend of Zelda world, like game after game after game, and like there's some pretty like straight lines you can draw between like oh, I played like Ocarina of Time, and there's locations in that game, and then I played like Wind Waker, and it has like mirrored locations, like it it all takes place on the same map, and then like you play Breath of the Wild, and you can still go visit some of those places that have been around since like Breath of or since like Ocarine of Time, but they've just been like reimagined time and time again. And to me, that's like one of the things I really enjoy about like Breath of the Wild and that setting is I sort of know, like, hey, I have a couple of expectations for like these places are gonna be there, and I kind of know where they're gonna be on the map, and like that familiarity is like comforting in a way. Plus, it helps me just like mentally navigate the Breath of the Wild map because I'm like, oh, okay, I know that um I know like the Volcano Mountain is like somewhere in like the top right side of the map, and the Deku tree is gonna be somewhere in like the bottom right of the map, and like Castletown is gonna be like somewhere in the center.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's really interesting because as someone I do not have Bre Breath of the Wild was the first Zelda game I played, and so I didn't have that history, and so I I was not able to make those connections to those uh to those settings, which I think probably adds a layer of meaning, like that, yeah. No, that especially because the environment and travel is so important. If you're already connected to these environments in some way, that would add like a whole nother layer of meaning onto that experience.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was really cool when I first played Breath of the Wild. You go and you visit Castletown, which is not really marked on the map, I don't think so, but it's the same Castletown as in Ocarina of Time. So you can like physically walk around it, and like if you have the mental map from Ocarina of Time, you see all the same landmarks. You're like, oh, okay, here's the fountain, and you can tell they purposely put like broken building outlines around like the buildings you used to be able to go into. Um and then as it like leads up to the main castle, uh it like draws a similar path. And that's I mean, it's cool, but it also it makes me feel. Feel like there's a consistent setting when you're like, hey, this is a Legend of Zelda game, and it's gonna feel like a Legend of Zelda game, like game after game after game. Even when they introduce like new lore and characters, like I know that there's like an established setting with some established expectations that I can like fall back on when I'm not really sure what's happening.
SPEAKER_05:Mm-hmm. I think that um what you're kind of describing, it's like I can't think of what the word is, but you know, when you're really, really into something and you're like all of your focuses in it, and you're able to like suspend your disbelief.
SPEAKER_01:Like flow state?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, kind of like the flow state. I can't think of what the word is for that, but yeah, it's um like having that continuity, like almost putting edges to the world makes the world feel more real because there's specific places, there's places that we're we have connections to. Um, I find the same thing happens in Warzone uh with the the way that they do the big map for Battle Royale. They'll usually um that like um Verdansk has pieces that are from multiplayer maps from previous games. Okay. And when you go into those places, you're like, hey, I've been here. And uh it creates a very, very cool feeling and it makes the world feel more real and like you're actually in the world and there's actual connections there, it's not just higgledy-piggledy sure, you know, sort of made up.
SPEAKER_01:So what is a game who even without like the mac the main mechanics of that game, you would still like to just you would still spend time just exploring that world? Like even if like, you know, there was no combat or like the the what we would consider the central mechanics, what's a game that you would still like like to explore regardless? Um, I guess for me I have a bunch of answers. Uh what one of which is Super Mario World. I think uh I think even if it wasn't like a really satisfying well-made platformer, just the world of Super Mario World for me is so imaginative and creative that even without the challenge factor, uh it's just a beautiful place to spend time in uh regardless. Um I would say Outer Wilds is kind of like that for me as well, where like it's so like to I mean it that's hard because like that is the game, actually. It's just exploring the environment is the same exact thing as the game. Um I I uh another example of this is Detroit become human simply because the environments are so beautiful and detailed in a way that in a way that triple A gaming rarely does for like domestic spaces. So like just to spend time in the like uh when you're the leader guy, I'm I'm forgetting the the names of these characters and Matthias or something like that. Yeah, Marcus. Marcus, there you go. Moses, yes, yes, Marcus. So cause because he's he becomes Moses. So, anyways, so yeah, when you're Marcus, uh like even just spending time in your owner's house, um, it's like a it's a really beautiful experience uh that's just cool to walk around and and check out. So can you guys think of games that you would be happy just like returning to just to walk around and see everything?
SPEAKER_05:I think that um a lot of games that I really like that are like open world mystery games tend to have environments like that. Okay. Um like the Forgotten City.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, sure.
SPEAKER_05:Where you're in a in an ancient Roman city at the bottom of a cistern. Um the whole point of that game is to keep coming back over and over again until you discover all the secrets. So it makes it a very inviting place to explore. Um, Paradise Killer is similar, it's also an open world mystery game, and um that is a game, it's it's such a different art style. Like Forgotten City was very photorealistic and beautiful in that way, and Paradise Killer is very like art poppy, like um cartoony, different style completely. But at the same time finding places like, oh, I can get up here. I didn't realize. I wonder if I could go over there, and then you can. That feeling of um discovery is really um, I think special in those kinds of games where finding things and looking at everything is like the whole point.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_05:So I guess that's not that's not separate from the mechanic, but it's like you said with outer wilds, it's the point of the game is to enjoy the setting. And so those kinds of games I think um lend themselves to that.
SPEAKER_01:Sure. What about you, Seth?
SPEAKER_00:I'm kind of looking a little over my Steam library right now, but like I mean, I feel like most open world games play well to this, just like Skyrim is classic for this, right? Like just being able to just walk through Skyrim, and sometimes like you just intentionally play these open world games like that. I think I said this on an episode a little while back, but um, when I was playing Fallout New Vegas, like I would intentionally not fast travel places and instead just like put on the radio and just to walk because I'm not busy and the game is beautiful enough, even like I don't know how long ago New Vegas came out, but like the game still looks good enough to this day, and the vibe is right that like I actually do just kind of want to like walk through the Mojave, and you know, maybe I encounter like one enemy along the way, but I'm not doing it for like the extra combat experience, I'm doing it because the vibe is good, sure, and I just enjoy this walk. Um so oh sorry, Ken. I I have a few more I'm just thinking about uh Mario Odyssey is another one, I think. Dempsey, to your point of like Super Mario World, yeah, like Mario Odyssey is just it's such like a fantastical world. Sure, and they it's it's very clearly a game where they were like we want distinct environments for you to like be able to explore. Um But I mean, even like the you know, like Elden Ring, right? Like, I think if you were to take Elden Ring and you were to literally like strip all the enemies out, um, and maybe just like add a little bit more wildlife, sure, sort of scattered throughout. I think Elden Ring would be an amazing game to just have like a photo mode where the whole point is just kind of to walk around and just like take pictures of the environment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I I I think about Lush Foil, which is that fucking game for the fucking PS5, and it never got fucking patched. He fucking lied to me. He told me on Blue Sky this this problem will be patched in a week, and it has been like three months later, and that problem is not patched. And that game was entirely about the environment, and to be fair, the environment was very beautiful. I have a lot of issues with that game. Uh, and I think one of the issues with that game is that the environment you don't interact with it like a regular environment because of how how many invisible walls there are. And and that's and I I think a lot of what we're talking about is like open worlds, which I think is really interesting. Because and because I guess in an open world, that's how you like naturally that's that's how you like naturally uh interface with it anyways. Like Bioshock has a cool setting, but because it's linear and you're not it's not open world or whatever, you're like I feel I I guess I feel like I have less agency over my experience in the setting, where like Grand Theft Auto 5, I can take a car and then decide where I want to be whenever I feel like it. If I want to go through a drive in the desert or on the beach, I can uh you know take someone out of their car and then go there myself if I have the inclination. But like Bioshock, you have to be at like a certain level. And so I guess are do you feel like there's any games that are very linear that you still like their uh I guess like their environments that aren't open world? Because I think you're right. Open worlds do have do like force us to develop a a relationship with the environment.
SPEAKER_05:I think um when it comes to environment in a more linear game, I think that I think we've spoken about this before way, way back early in the podcast life. Um, but that more linear games are able to take advantage of more environmental storytelling. So Bioshock, Hollow Knight, those kinds of games are able to um help tell the story because they lock you into where you're able to go and when you're able to go there. So in Bioshock, that's very much true. You can't go to X until you get Y and it's all curated. And so the story that's where you're able to find like those um those recordings, or you find ghosts that are telling about something that happened or showing something. And so you get to you get this very, I think, um absorbing environment. Um, I almost had the word that I'm looking for. I'll remember when we're done recording. Um immersive? Immersive, thank you. Yes, God's very immersive environment. Um where everywhere you go, you are seeing the things you're supposed to see. Whereas I think in a more open world, um barring like cut scenes that you trigger, it can't really do that because it can't control how and when you get to different places. So I think um the ones that do stick out the most for me would be like the Hollow Knight or the Bioshock as very beautiful environments that I like to be in, um, but that are still very much curated in what my actual experience is as a player.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was gonna like thinking about some similar games too, and again, just kind of like scrolling through my Steam library, but even something like Hades, right? Like Hades has very like intentional setting, which is like related to the sort of backstory it's trying to tell. But obviously, like uh I again I don't think any of us have played Hades 2 at this point, but in like in the first Hades, like Zagreus actually talks about like the different environments he goes in, and that sort of plays an important like narrative understanding for him and like how he's progressing through his journey to find his mother. Um, but even like I don't know, something something silly like Slay the Spire. Sure, right? Like Slay the Spire doesn't necessarily have like a setting that the characters interact with, but like all the background art is supposed to point you towards like the feeling that I'm enclosed in a giant tower.
SPEAKER_01:Sure, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so like the setting isn't crritical for something like Slay the Spire, like Slay the Spire could have easily taken place like in a castle and you you're going through the rooms, or it could have taken place like in a dungeon where like you go downwards.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um but like the background art and uh Katie to the point you said about like something being immersive or like some suspension of disbelief that I'm like, yeah, I'm like climbing a tower.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:They call it floors in Slay the Spire, the background kind of gives you the vibe, like the event text makes it seem like you're like climbing when you beat the heart at the end, it shows your character like climbing up a set of stairs. Like it all of these things play towards like helping you understand the setting, even though like the the setting is not really integral to like what's happening.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Um, are there any settings that if you were if there were a game that had this setting that you would 100% want to play it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think as you get like local, like like so I think a lot of my answers would just be things like I love the Redwoods personally, and I don't know of any game that's set in the Redwoods. I think maybe Horizon Forbidden West might have some Redwood-esque elements. Um, and that's actually the point. And is that like my favorite parts of that game is uh I think um but yeah, I think uh if you told me there was a game that took place in like the Pennsylvania State Park system, I'd be like, I I mean I'm playing it.
SPEAKER_00:Like I've I've visited most of those places. In fact, I I I've dealt with this in my real life, um because as a kid we used to go camping all the time, we had a big camper, and so we would travel around to different like state parks and go camping. It was our it was our family activity. And when I moved here to Phoenixville, there's a state park that's just like down the road. Um that is like one of the main places we used to go camping, and like I've now visited there with my girlfriend, and I I I have this like nostalgia experience of like going back to this place I've been before. Which, like, yeah, if you made a video game that was like Pennsylvania State Parks, I'd be like, I don't really care what it's about, I guess I'll just play it for the sheer sake of it, the novelty. But um, I mean, I talked about this earlier. Like, I'm playing Void War, which is a game like mechanically based on FTL, which is why I'm interested. But like, it's it's a legally distinct 40k universe. And like, that's that's part of the appeal. Um, you know, if it was just Warhammer 40,000 universe, you know, I'd probably enjoy it a little bit more. But if somebody had just said, like, hey, we remade FTL, I'd be like, okay, but somebody has said, hey, we remade FTL, but in the 40k universe. And I went, that sounds fun, and I spent 20 bucks on it. Like, I'm not asking for a lot here. Most of the time I feel like I just and I I mean, I maybe I'm in the minority, but I oftentimes feel like when I'm like, hey, I want a sequel to this game, it's either just like I want you to give me the same game, but with like more content, or like the same game in a different setting. Like, I, you know.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. How about you, Dempsey? Are you said? I think for me, I'd love an ancient Egyptian setting. And if it was anything was set in ancient Egypt, I would be there. Like, I just read this book called Tutin Common, um, by I think his name was Nick Drake. And I picked it up because it was a murder mystery sent set in ancient Egypt, um, revolving around Tutankhamun, the boy king, and all of that stuff, right? Well, I'm and I'm a big like Egyptian history nerd/slash mythology person. Um so I was like, sweet, I don't I don't care really what it's about, where it's set has got me hooked. And it was so bad, and I was so disappointed because I wanted to love it. And so I'm like, oh, you know what would be so cool is if somebody made a game set in ancient Egypt that was like a really devilish mystery game and had a great like some sort of great like myth mythology story or something. Like Rick Reardon made uh if Rick Reardon made a a video game, you know, it would be fantastic. He's the guy that wrote um the Percy Jackson series and the um there's an Egyptian series as well. But um what you look like you're speculative, Tibsy.
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm just thinking. I uh so two locate so two things come to mind. First of all, I think like I am uh setting something in space is a really fast way to get me to take to take notice of something. I'm kind of a sucker for uh space as a setting. And then also when you're talking about ancient Egypt, I was thinking about Journey, the game. Journey Journey is not set in ancient Egypt, but the that game is pretty much all close enough. Yeah, it's close enough. That game is pretty much like entirely about environmental appreciation. Like that's like the whole thesis of that game.
SPEAKER_00:Um and you know what else I'm thinking about this too is um is Rachel just started a show called The Great. Okay. Um it's a show that is uh uh according to its own an occasionally true story. Okay, um, it's a show about like Catherine the Great, so it it takes place in like you know, I like 1700s Russia.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um but like I think it's interesting because the show brands itself as like an occasionally true story. Like what they wanted is they wanted the setting and they wanted the characters, but not necessarily like the actual story about what happened, but just kind of like the vibe of the story. Um, and if you go look it up, like I watched one or two episodes with her, it's not really my thing. But then like I looked up the history of like Catherine the Great, who's like a name I'm familiar with. Like I took like European history, um, but like you know, I don't know a ton about, and you're like, oh, the show is literally like like five, 10% based on like what actually happened in her life and like 99, you know, 90% dramatization. But like that's fine, it's a show about some person from like the 1700s, but I it's a point about like if the setting is intriguing enough, I think people will flock to it regardless of is this like a nonfiction story, a fictional story? And I think like we see that with like franchises, right? Like I mentioned Legend of Zelda, but also like you know, if you do like a Game of Thrones spin-off, people will be interested because they just like the Game of Thrones setting.
SPEAKER_05:You see this with like Lord of the Rings all the time, and Assassin's Creed um really capitalizes on that with their series because that's yeah, that's like the whole thing. They're like that's the whole thing. They're like, and now you're a pirate, and now you're a colonial, and now you're a Viking Norse Viking, and now you're a Greek hero. Very smart, I think very, very smart.
SPEAKER_00:I think people just like those settings, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And tying it into um actual history or mythology, um, even if only so slightly, allows people to make those connections to their own background knowledge and then thus be more interested, I think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Have they done like an Assassin's Creed, but on like a space station? Do we have like sci-fi Assassin's Creed?
SPEAKER_01:I do not think we have sci-fi Assassin's Creed.
SPEAKER_00:Because that would be pretty sick if you like Netrunner style, like sci-fi.
SPEAKER_05:People are like Is the device that allows them to go back in time not sci-fi enough for you?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, it's not. You could cut that out of the game and it'd be the same game. I don't care about the actual like Assassin's Creed lore, like I actually that's the thing that I yeah, that is drives me crazy with Assassin's Creed is that there's sci-fi lore in there. I don't know. I've I okay, so like in real life, okay, I are we getting I feel like we're getting there. We're we're we're getting close to time. So 10 minutes. In real life, is there a place that you like to go to? And even if you're not doing anything there, just the environment is very meaningful to you. Like even if even if you're not with anybody, even if you're like not like not even hiking or not even swimming or whatever you'd normally do there, just like being in that location, is there a location that you just enjoy being in for the sake of being there?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, back when like um so I I made the mention of there's this state park I enjoy going to where like my girlfriend and I we just go and we go on a walk. Like it's not it's it's not intended to be anything strenuous. We're just like, hey, we're bored, so we're gonna walk. Um for me, I think that's mostly like nostalgic locations.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Like there's a mall around where I grew up where like nobody goes to malls anymore, but like it's I went there, my parents used to take me there all the time as a kid, so it's just a fun place to like walk around. Um when my parents still lived in our childhood home, you know, it was fun for me to just in college go home and just kind of like be there because it's the place I've always lived, so I just enjoy being there. Um I mean, I think the more that I sort of you know like live in my own apartment, I'm discovering that you know, when I go visit my parents' place for a couple days, I am literally just happy to like be able to come home and like sit at my desk and like look out my window. Like the actual like environment around where I live now, I enjoy. Um but also like I can I you know I do sometimes just walk down to the park. It's like three blocks away, and you just like hang out at the park, you have a little picnic or something, and like that's just fun.
SPEAKER_05:I think this question is Dempsey's attempt to to ascertain whether or not we touch grass.
SPEAKER_00:It's probably also true, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I I recently I'll I guess I'll answer before Katie. Um I have so the Badlands, which I'm kind of close to, um, which is I think just a type of land. I don't think it's a specific location, but um, it happens to be like at nighttime, it happens to be extraordinarily good uh to see the stars. And so I'm jealous, and so that is that is something that has become very meaningful to me, especially as it gets warmer and I'm spending more time outside. Uh and so I I was out with a friend last week to go stargazing, and we were listening to the Outer Wilds and Citizen Sleeper soundtrack and stargazing. It was very good. Um I was very happy.
SPEAKER_05:That sounds lovely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, and then I I really miss the ocean. So I used to live in California, and I think about the ocean almost every day. We did not live close to the ocean, but my mom did like the ocean, so we would go like once a month to the ocean. And so uh we lived in the Central Valley area, and then we would go to like uh Santa Cruz, was a town that's very important to me. And so now when I go on vacation, a lot of times I will go back to the same uh town that I went to as a child.
SPEAKER_05:I think um I'm very fortunate in where I live. It's very beautiful. We've got um I live, I live literally walking distance to hiking trails um for the Wasatch Mountain Range and in northern Utah. And um So I'm surrounded by mountains and they're they're really close and lovely. And um even when I when I lived in my parents' house, we were a little bit further away, about 20, 30 minutes further. Um, but every day when I would drive to my university, um, I'd drive towards the mountains. And even then having grown up here, like anytime that I have a really good view going towards the mountain range, I'm always um I never take it for granted. It's always been very beautiful to me.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_05:And uh and I think then living away, like I lived, I've lived kind of uh multiple places over the last several years. Um when I come back, I think I appreciate it even more. Um, and so and when I'm in places that don't have mountains, it feels really weird. So I love um being in a place that has mountains, um, specifically my own mountains. And uh and I never get tired of looking at them. We were just driving down to uh to an amusement park the other day and we were driving. I was like, God, it's really pretty here. And my husband was like, Yeah, it really is. I'm like, God, we're so lucky. So um, if you live someplace super flat, sorry for you, mountains are great.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I grew up on a prairie.
SPEAKER_05:I yeah, different, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I so the the prairie, I've been learning to appreciate the prairie more. Um little house on the yeah, I the prairie is like an ocean of grass, and I think like the vastness of it and the fact that like most of the life in the prairie is under under the surface.
SPEAKER_04:Um I was gonna ask, are groundhogs the otters of the prairie?
SPEAKER_01:I don't think I don't think groundhogs are prairie animals. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_05:Prairie dogs. Are prairie dogs are prairie dogs the otters of the prairie?
SPEAKER_01:Maybe. Uh pray dogs live in colonies. I don't think otters live in as sophisticated of social dynamics. Also, prairie dogs have a more complicated speech uh speech recognition. They uh we could figure out like when they're saying like certain colors, uh certain colors, and certain people.
SPEAKER_02:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, they're very social creatures and they communicate through chirping, and so they have very complicated uh anyways. I I don't know any game that's set on the prairie. I'm trying to think of a game that's set so like we have Red Dead 2. Maybe cow maybe I need to play more cowboy games.
SPEAKER_00:I was also I was gonna say, like, uh, because you guys both mentioned it, like, just even in general, like I, you know, I essentially live in a forest. Pennsylvania is just all forest. And Katie, I you made a comment that I I think about often, um, a while ago, um, which is that you were you were flying, and I think you had a layover in Philadelphia or something, and you made a comment that like it's just so green around here. Yeah. Um crazy.
SPEAKER_05:So many trees. Holy crap.
SPEAKER_00:Right. We we have so many trees. Um, and I I I think about that comment a lot um when I'm just like driving, especially like through the PA countryside. Like, I essentially had to drive the length of Pennsylvania to go visit my parents. And so, you know, I had like six hours of essentially just like driving on these roads where you're just like driving through forests, um, and we just have like incredibly dense trees here. Um and it is it's noticeable to me when I'm at other places that don't have that. And it's it it plays some weird trick on my psyche. Um like I notice that I'm like there's not a lot of trees around here, and it's like it's bothersome to me in a way that I don't know if I can like fully describe. You feel kind of exposed. I do feel a little exposed, and I just like I'm like, it's not very green here, which is weird. Like my my parents live out in like central Ohio, so it's it's not like too too far away, but right, it's far enough away that like it's mostly farmland and a lot less trees. And just everywhere I look around, I'm like, this would be cooler if it had more trees. Um so there's something like about those settings that I just like a lot, um, and like feel very familiar to me. Which is odd. Also, on a random side note, uh the Ukraine has like a very similar um actually is essentially like the same ecological biome than in like eastern Pennsylvania.
SPEAKER_04:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00:So I used to, when there was a lot more like Ukraine war footage, I used to show my students uh Ukraine and they would be like, that looks like here, and I'm like, yes, it it almost literally is. Sorry. Off topic.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, no, for sure. I always wonder about that. This is also off topic, but isn't it if it's the same if it's the same, like if it's the same up and down, what is that longitude?
SPEAKER_01:Elevation?
SPEAKER_05:No.
SPEAKER_01:Latitude on the map. Latitude.
SPEAKER_05:Latitude. If it's the same latitude, isn't it the same biome?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_05:No. If it's the same longitude, is it the same biome?
SPEAKER_00:No. Like latitude.
SPEAKER_05:It's something where it's the same.
SPEAKER_00:Latitude, it latitude plays a role, but like oftentimes like proximity to water plays an important role as well.
SPEAKER_01:Precipitation.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right. I know that one. But like I so honestly, right, that is why like Ukraine has a very similar climate to like Pennsylvania. Um if I recall correctly, it's around the same latitude. Um like it's sort of it's like inland a little bit and has something to do with like its proximity to like a the sea that's above it. It's I think sort of like the same distance. Oh, sure. But like I'm spreading.
SPEAKER_05:Fascinating is that different countries have Like just their own versions of the exact same food, even though they were never like in contact when those things became developed. Like everybody's got dumplings, you know?
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a different topic. Anyway, how about we uh get ourselves wrapped up here?
SPEAKER_05:Sorry. Okay, that's us. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:So, as a closer there is a Barbie game called Barbie Explorer, which Wikipedia lists as set in Egypt.
SPEAKER_00:Oh Barbie game in Egypt.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I don't know why I associate Katie with Barbie games.
SPEAKER_05:Because Barbie Horse Ride Adventure led to my real life horse ride adventure. Yeah, definitely. Yep. Thanks, Barbie Horseride Adventure. Games for girls.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, games for girls, which is a topic I think we should do eventually. So uh if you have any uh topic.
SPEAKER_05:If you have any Let me do the outro.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Thanks so much for listening. This has been Overthinking Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us. Um, if you have any settings that are particularly meaningful to you um in games, if there's uh your dream setting for a video game, or if you have any thoughts about this episode or other episodes, please send us an email. It's in the show notes, and we will catch you next time. Thank you. Bye.
SPEAKER_01:I was bullied. Okay. Um