Overthinking Games
Overthinking Games is a podcast about what video games can teach us. We look at video games through an educational and critical lens.
Overthinking Games
Ep 64: The Switch 2 and the idea of Value
This week, Dempsey and Katie play shoulder advocates on either side of Seth’s quandary: should he get a Nintendo Switch 2? This existential question leads us into the question of “value,” and what it takes for something to be “worth it.”
Katie continues to be alarmingly anti-Nintendo, Dempsey wants to watch the world burn, and Seth is not helped much by either one.
Are you getting a Switch 2? Why or why not? Send us an email and let us know what you think! overthinkinggamespodcast@gmail.com
Find us on: Apple Podcasts Spotify Tik Tok/Instagram Bluesky
Theme music is copyright free and from: https://www.youtube.com/@Pixverses
Are you recording with your actual microphone?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I've got my microphone hooked up to my phone and I'm on Discord through my iPad.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Gotcha. Because I'm not gonna buy a computer.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Sure.
SPEAKER_00:So much more of a reasonable uh I need two devices that I already own in order to do the thing that one device that I don't own could do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I guess that's how it works.
SPEAKER_02:So I think I think you have the cold open.
SPEAKER_00:I think that was the cold open.
SPEAKER_03:No, I have I have a cold open. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. Go.
SPEAKER_03:So I have news to start a cold open, uh, which we also need to evaluate. Uh, which is uh I've started playing RuneScape again, uh, which I need to I need to justify my actions. Okay, here's here's here's my thing. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Boo.
SPEAKER_03:Boo. Here's my thing. I I've previously talked at length about RuneScape in a lot of different ways. One of the things I've previously talked about is I feel like I have an unhealthy relationship with this game.
SPEAKER_00:But coming in And you keep coming back to it.
SPEAKER_03:I keep well that's actually not why I feel like I have a bad relationship with this game. I felt like I had a bad relationship with this game for two things. One, I was just playing it like way too much, and two, I was like neglecting the other responsibilities in my life because I was playing so much.
SPEAKER_02:I would say that is actually definitionally unhealthy. Like that's like a DSM5, the way you diagnose things. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly, which is why I'm saying it like that. So but my life is in like a fundamentally different spot than it was when I was last playing it. I live with my girlfriend now. I have like dogs here at home. There are like actual responsibilities that I can not neglect without there being like real repercussions.
SPEAKER_02:Sounds like the perfect time to get into RuneScape, I guess.
SPEAKER_03:Sounds like the perfect time to get into RuneScape. And the you'll both be able to empathize empathize with this change. So one is like this time last year, I was living by myself. Right? And because Dempsey, you currently live by yourself, right? I do. So and like well, no, I mean, it's just because like the experience of living by yourself for me was a lot of like, hey, I have this like list of responsibilities of like things I need to do, but I have like no desire to do it, and I'd rather just like go play games instead, which I can't do anymore. And then Katie as well, something that is still true about my life. Um, but like you're a teacher over the summer, you have like literally nothing to do, uh, and it was very easy for me to occupy like many, many hours of my time with this game, uh, of which I now have things to do, despite the fact that like I'm a teacher over the summer, because I like live with somebody and that like incurs responsibilities. So I and I did think about this before like booting this game back up, because I was like, I'm at least interested in how my relationship to this game evolves. Because like Rachel and I have been watching shows. I was talking with Katie. Rachel and I started watching Love Island, and like when you watch like an hour show a day, you're like, I just need like, and I want to vaguely pay attention to it. I need like something to do on my phone. And RuneScape is the kind of game where you're like, I need to spend like five hours just kind of like clicking a tree. Uh, and I guess I'll do that over the next like five days of watching this show. Long story short, I'm interested to see how this evolves over the next couple weeks. Can I do this in a way that doesn't like disrupt my life? I think I can. The other side of this is like maybe I'm just like coping as somebody who like can't get over that unhealthy relationship. But like, I you know, I guess there's only one way to find out.
SPEAKER_00:Nice. How exciting.
SPEAKER_03:What an experiment. What an experiment. Hey, sometimes you gotta experiment on yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, my recording ended. Can we clap again?
SPEAKER_03:What the hell?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, uh, three, two, one, clap.
SPEAKER_03:Missed my whole bit. Thank you. Cut the entire cold open. Katie missed all the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:But I didn't say much during that one. Yeah, that's fine.
SPEAKER_02:That was uh that was our longest cold open.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, my bad.
SPEAKER_00:So true. It's about five five minute cold open. That's okay. We're gonna have a 40-minute what we've been playing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, you know, it's just one of those. All right, uh, hello everybody. Welcome to Overthinking Games, a podcast about what games can teach us. Uh, my name is Seth. Uh, who are the other people here?
SPEAKER_00:Hi, I'm Katie. I'm a I'm a I'm a teacher.
SPEAKER_02:I'm Dempsey. I have I have no significant qualifier to my existence. This is a podcast about what video games can teach us. Yeah, did you say that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I did say that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, good job.
SPEAKER_00:We're professionals. We know what we're doing.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, while we're and you know what? I'm remembering to do this right now. Before we get to the very end of the episode, Katie, where can you find us?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'm so glad you asked, Seth. Um, you can find us on TikTok where Dempsey makes awesome shorts of his own topics about vinyl and cool things, as well as clips from our show. Um, you can send us an email. We would love to hear from you about your thoughts on an episode you've listened to or suggestions for a topic. Um, and that is found in the show notes. And we're also on Blue Sky and Instagram and all those places.
SPEAKER_03:Sick. We always save it for the end. And every podcast I listen to does their plug at the beginning, and I was like, we should probably start doing that again. Anyway. Wise. So on the note of what comes next, what have you guys been playing this week? Dempsey, you said you have to.
SPEAKER_00:Well, what's our topic this oh yeah, we gotta say our topic.
SPEAKER_03:Uh, we're talking about like how valuable video game experiences are to us. Anyway, we'll get to it. Dempsey.
SPEAKER_02:So I have been on vacation for two weeks, and I the only thing I've really I've put like another two hours into uh Death Stranding, not much more to say about that. I have played more UFO 50.
SPEAKER_03:Ooh.
SPEAKER_02:I had my Steam Deck with me, and so I I think I only really played one more game. Um and it's kind of like I forget what it's called, it's like within the first ten. Describe it. It's like a reverse, it's like a reverse tower defense game where you have two towers both sending troops at each other, and you can't control which troops you get, but you can control where you position them.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, the one where it's like a board and you're going across the board.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, and then you're gonna make it if you you get a point if you make it to their side, and then each piece has different uh powers, and you can't you can't decide which piece comes next, but you can decide where to position the pieces that you get.
SPEAKER_03:I'm really bad at that one.
SPEAKER_02:And I really like that one. I finished that one. Um and so that was kind of the only new thing I've played in the past two weeks. Um other than some Balatro, some Pokemon, the trading card game, the app, and uh some some Death Stranding. Um I think I'll I will I'm gonna have a lot more to say about Death Stranding, but I'm gonna wait till I finish it. Um because any opinion I have of that game changes dramatically. Like uh after playing it for another two hours, it's like a completely different game every like four hours or whatever. So it's it's kind of hard to nail down an opinion. Um I do, however, because I have time, want I saw the Superman movie, and that feels and I loved it so much. I just wanted to say that I which Superman movie? The so there's a new it's just called Superman. It's just a new Superman movie that came it came out yesterday, was was the first day. This is uh June. We're recorded on June 11th, and uh July 11th. Oh yeah, July were recorded on July 11th, and it was uh it was just such a beautiful, uh like a really tender, fantastic movie. So um cool. Yeah, I will hopefully actually get to play video games soon, eventually, hopefully. I really miss like I genuinely actually like I'm starting to crave video games, like uh like I want to play Expedition 33 so badly, anyways. But that's that's where I am.
SPEAKER_00:That the Claire Obscura or whatever, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_01:Kenny, what have you been playing?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I've been playing a lot of things actually. First though, um Death Stranding, I put like 30 hours into it, and I really enjoyed all of my time, and now I feel like I've gotten what I need out of it, and I don't really want to play it anymore.
SPEAKER_02:How f how far did you get?
SPEAKER_00:I got to see. Yeah, spoilers. No, I got to like I took the boat, I got fast travel with Fragile, um, I got all of the people in their bunkers to like me and join the network.
SPEAKER_02:Did you go up the mountain?
SPEAKER_00:Like go up the mountain?
SPEAKER_02:Did you go?
SPEAKER_00:I got like the craftsman and the engineer and the old man or whatever.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Did you get the cosplayer or the collector? Did you did you make it to like the desert area?
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Should I keep going?
SPEAKER_02:I it in my opinion, I can't answer that because it's not the same game anymore. Like, I have an assault rifle now. Like now it's just it's just a combat game. Like it's really yeah, like it legit is not the same game anymore.
SPEAKER_00:I was getting fed up because every time I tried to go, and I know that's the point. Everywhere you go, you run into obstacles, blah blah blah. Well, I got to a point where I was like fucking sick of running into the BTs and them dragging me off my bike and having to fight the big like I just fought a lion, like an eldritch lion, which was cool. Um but I'm like, I'm hitting them with my little blood bombs beforehand so that I don't get yanked off. And I'm like, this is scripted, there's no way to avoid it. Because they wanted me to show they wanted to show me their cool eldritch lion. I get it.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:But I just want to go where I want to go.
SPEAKER_02:There's so many of the blood things, but then you get a gun and you can just shoot them. And it becomes a it it becomes a really different, it becomes a really different game as because right now you probably have the bolo things, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Where you can kind of tie people up. Uh so yeah, you just get like assault rifles and like different kinds of guns.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Which I just kind of was like fed up with it. I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it really it really changes like like there's a whole like World War there's a whole World War I section as well, where you're just going through like German trenches with an assault rifle and a shotgun.
SPEAKER_04:Huh.
SPEAKER_02:It's weird. Yeah, there's like a whole trench warfare section that uh yeah, and it yeah, it's very I'll watch.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe I'll watch a highlights video. I feel like I've kind of gotten what I needed out of it. It was fun. I'm good now. Um, I did finish a game of extreme artistic value. We want to talk about Death Stranding as being a you know single source creator or whatever and all the things. I played Crush House all the way through to both endings. And that's the 1990s uh reality TV show.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, you talked about this last time. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I finished it, I actually finished it today. Um and it was fun. And I played about it took me about 20 hours and super chill, great, a great one to uh to play while you watch Love Island, Seth. You'd enjoy that. It's a roguelike, it's a roguelike that you could watch and it's thematically on point with Love Island. Highly recommend. Yeah. Um, I've also played, let's see, all of the things. I've also been playing Stacklands, which I've talked about before on the podcast. It's a um civilization builder roguelike with cards instead of units. And you start like in the Stone Age and you work your way up. Um, but what's cool about it is that there was recently an update that makes it playable, um, handheld on the Steam Deck. Whereas before I had to hook it up to my dock and use a mouse. Um, now they've made it work really well with the Steam Deck and uh super fun. Been enjoying that one. And then my friend Roseanne listens to our show, and she is not much of a gamer. She's becoming more of a gamer, but she was like, What the hell is a roguelike? So she came over the other day, and we were playing this point in click mystery called Agent A, and we beat that, and then I was like, Oh, let me explain. She's like, Because you talk about like Slay the Spire and it's like cards, and I'm like, What are you doing? Like, are you playing a jack and they're playing a queen? And I was like, No, no, no, let me not exactly. So I showed her Slay the Spire, and then I showed her Ballatro, and I was like, These are both, these are both card game roguelikes, and she was like, No, thank you. And I was like, fair. Um, we've also been playing Roll the Cat, which is I've played a lot of things. Sorry, y'all. Uh, roll the cat is basically Baba is you minus the logic word puzzles. So you play as this woman that has two cats.
SPEAKER_03:It's basically Baba is you, except scrap the main premise of the game.
SPEAKER_00:So the way it works is this um, you are a beleaguered cat owner with two cats who keep opening waking you up at four in the morning, and you have to get them into bed by rolling them onto their cat beds. However, you're on this like grid room, and there's a certain way you have to figure out how to move them both to get them where they need to go. And it's like it's like Baba is you, where if you get Baba up against the wall, you can't push it down.
SPEAKER_03:Katie are you describing a Sokobon puzzle? What's the name of this game?
SPEAKER_00:Roll the cat. Does it have a name?
SPEAKER_02:I also don't know what a soak- I'm I'm with you, Katie. I do not know what a Sokobon puzzle is.
SPEAKER_03:Uh it's fine.
SPEAKER_00:Seth's good. Yeah, you're describing a Sokobon puzzle.
SPEAKER_03:It's a um weeb. No, yeah, this is this is like this might be one of the weebest things I've said in a while. Um it is a an old Japanese puzzle game about moving boxes around a warehouse um in order to navigate the box puzzle to the other side of the room. Yeah. Yes. Oh.
SPEAKER_02:Except for its cats. Yeah, I've played near Automata has those. Here I'm not. I know what you're talking about. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's like it's a big, like, uh let me drop it in the the Wikipedia article in the chat.
SPEAKER_00:And you guys I love that you were able to figure out what I was talking about from that. Good job, you. Well, because I was like, uh there's only okay.
SPEAKER_03:There's only so many games that involve like pushing things around in order to solve a puzzle. And typically it's inspired by like Sokobon, which is I think is how you pronounce it. That's how it's at least like spelled. If you guys look at the Wikipedia article, there's a gif there that you're gonna be like, oh yes, I know exactly what this is.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, but that it's a really fun game, especially if you like cats. But am I am I right that that's kind of like uh Baba is you, but minus the logic puzzle? Okay. And there's more. I've also been playing a game called The Swapper, which reminds me of something on UFO 50, but I don't know what it's which one it's called. And it's one where you make a copy of yourself to navigate this platformer world. And uh so you make like a copy of yourself, and then you can, in order to like press down a lever or to like get to some place that you can't normally reach, but when you move, your copy moves as well, and so it's it's a puzzle game um where you're using up to four copies of yourself to traverse this uh alien planet. And I know that there's a game like that on UFO50, but I can't remember what it's called. Um, but it's super cool. And what's so neat about it is that the background is all made out of um like they made it, they physically made the levels and then digitized them. So they're made out of like um modeling clay and cork and felt and all kinds of different like crafting materials, and then they digitized it. So that's pretty cool. Um and I think that's it. That's it. That's my lengthy list. Oh no, I lied. Rogue Legacy. I've been playing Rogue Legacy. Have you played that, Dempsey?
SPEAKER_02:I do not know what that is.
SPEAKER_00:It's hard. It's really hard. It's a roguelike where you play as um like it's every person that you pick, after if once they die, you choose from their offspring. And depending on who you choose, I think dictates what kind of traits you see in your future possible choices. I could be wrong, it might not be that involved, but um, so what do you think, Seth? I don't think so. Okay, I wondered. I thought that that might be the case.
SPEAKER_03:I think it's more just like lore.
SPEAKER_00:It's just random. So they get like different, um, they'll be like the different classes. There's knave, paladin, and barbarian mage, maybe I haven't unlocked that yet. Um, and then they have like special traits. So like they can have uh one of them was like monochromia, you'll see only in black and white. So then when you pick that person, you play the level, the level's in black and white. Or another one was uh something where you don't have good vision, so you can only see the immediate area around you, and you have like a fog of war everywhere else. Um and then there's some that like you're super big, you knock people over when you hit them. You're super small, you get knocked over when you get hit, things like that. So, and then every time you run through this castle fighting the butt bad guys and the monsters, um, you gain gold, and then you use that gold to upgrade your character and your castle and things like that. So every run you're making continual progress. Um, but whatever money you get gets taken by Charon at the start of at the gate of the castle. So if you were to get like 600 gold and you spent 400 of it and all you had left was 200, and it wasn't enough to spend on anything, you just have to throw it away. So I've been having fun with that. It's really hard. I suck at it, but it's fun. That's what I was playing while I was waiting for you for a podcast today. Um, what have you been playing, Seth?
SPEAKER_03:I played a lot of different things. Uh, and I have I have some commentary. So I I talked about playing RuneScape, which you know what, just in general terms, it's fun to come back to a game after like six months where the the things that I achieved at like the end of the six months, I was like, oh, I have like this boss to beat, this boss to beat, this boss to beat. And like I don't feel super confident about doing that. But after taking like a six-month break, you kind of like leave all those feelings behind, and you come back to a game and you're like, I'm willing to try these things again. Um I I think I might have just been in that sort of mood over the last like couple weeks because I went back to Baldur's Gate 3, which I dropped a rant about in the chat, if you guys remember. Yeah, I did see that. Which and I will say this again because I don't know why in the year of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ 2025, that games don't auto-save every 10 seconds. I don't understand.
SPEAKER_00:There is an autosave button that you could do though.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, there's a manual save, but that's not the point. A game should just auto-save.
SPEAKER_00:What? You don't want to be responsible for your own progress. You want it to save for you.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, yes, it's 2025. I have a two-terabyte hard drive. Save after literally every time I click a button. Like, what's the problem? Like, I don't I don't get it. So, like, and especially in a game like Baldur's Gate, where I'm like, oh, I'm gonna like walk around and talk to people, and then I talk to some guy, and he's like, What's your deal, pal? And my three answers are like fight him back, keep talking, or like run away like a coward. And you're like, well, I'm playing a paladin, I'm gonna break my oath if I run away like a coward. So I'm gonna talk, and then you talk, you fail your persuasion check, and then he's like, Alright, I'm gonna kill you. And I'm like, well, that was the dumbest shit I've ever seen. I'm gonna reload my last save, and my last save is like half an hour ago.
SPEAKER_00:Like, what is no so I I take it to uh I can infer rather that you revisited Baldur's Gate and now you've put it away. This is correct.
SPEAKER_03:This is this is the exact same scenario that I landed myself the last time I stopped playing Baldur's Gate. So if I continue to play Baldur's Gate, I'm gonna write an auto hotkey script that just makes a quick save every minute. It just automatically hits F5 for me just every minute, as the game should be doing anyway. Um, and then that way I might be able to enjoy this game.
SPEAKER_02:Um I fundamentally disappointing. That's cool. If you are playing it's supposed to be like D D. Like you would not let your DM like your DM would not let you like undo decisions once you make them.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, they want us to live with that choice. But it doesn't do that, it resets you to your last save when your team wipes in combat. So like it the points are relevant because that's not even how the game fundamentally works. Okay, I'll sit through my combat then and then fucking wipe, and then I'm back 30 minutes again. I don't get it. I don't get how this game got game of the year. Shit at design decisions.
SPEAKER_02:It's so good. Wow. Yeah, because oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00:I'm playing with my mom and my brother right now. It's fun.
SPEAKER_02:You're it's the higher stakes, it's you have to commit to things.
SPEAKER_03:Uh no, you don't just reset to a previous save. There's no committing to anything.
SPEAKER_02:How would you okay? Here, I'm gonna what how about playing it in honor mode instead?
SPEAKER_03:What? So that like my character is forced dead anytime I just like die? Yeah. Yeah. The solution for my design problem is to force myself into a hardcore mode where I'm just actually gonna get my progress wiped if I make a bad decision. Yeah, that sounds like a fun time. Yeah, the Dark Souls of Baldur's game. No, because Dark Souls actually saves your progress like every second. I said this in our group chat too. Your power can go out in the middle of a Dark Souls game, and it when you boot that game up, you're on the exact pixel you left off on. Like that game it literally copies everything you do every second. So, like, why? Why? Why?
SPEAKER_00:No excuses, Larry and Studios. No excuses.
SPEAKER_03:I don't get it. Anyway, that's my Baldur's Gate rant. I'm done. Um, what else do I have to talk about? Okay, I also commented on this.
SPEAKER_02:I played Outer Wilds for Oh my god. I fucking I hate being a part of this podcast.
SPEAKER_03:I played Outer Wilds for 45 minutes. Um my god.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:That's enough to what, play it twice?
SPEAKER_03:Uh yeah, I think so. You uh two? Yeah. Yeah, I think I played through like twice. Um I so my first time playing through, you know, I'm I'm I'm wandering around the starting area, right? You get to the statue, it gives you the little flashback. I'm like, oh, that's fun. Um I got in the spaceship. It you know, it takes a second to figure out the controls. I'm flying around. I landed on the moon because I was like, that's the closest thing to go to. I had to figure out spaceship controls. I get there, I don't know, there's some puzzle where it's like you can like drag the ball around and it tells you places to go. And I was like, oh, that's funky. And then I looked up and I saw the sun, and I was like, that's not the same color it was before. And then I look at the map, and I because you know it's got the big grid, and I see the sun slowly overcompassing the next box of the grid, and I went, uh, I see. We have any pending problem. Um and I did some other stuff on the moon for a while, and then like I got up off the moon, and I was like, Oh, I'll go check out one of the other planets. And then I'm like, huh, the sun has turned blue, and then I like I opened up the whole like uh galaxy map. Galaxy map, I opened up the solar system map, and I was like, no, I feel like I want to look at this through like the the window and the spaceship. Uh and I was like, okay, I get the premise of this game. And then I thought about it for another second, and I was like, oh, I get why Dempsey likes this game. Um and I think I said in the chat, it's like this just feels like a game about finding meaning, despite the fact that like the universe is ending, and yeah, it's inherently beating it. But like you need to find meaning anyway. And I was like, okay, I I get the thesis of this game and why Dempsey likes it. And then I and then I close there and didn't come back to I know why Dempsey likes it.
SPEAKER_02:There's a there's a whole romance story between the scientists that you read the messages they leave for each other. I'm sure there is. It's so lovely. I mean, you find friends and things like that, it's good.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but like I I'm not looking for meaning in my real life, so I don't need to play it.
SPEAKER_01:It's oh my god.
SPEAKER_03:What is that? We need to get I probably will read there's not gonna be wrong.
SPEAKER_02:There's some people, so we follow because I control the TikTok. So we follow uh so many outer wilds creators, like there's so many people, there's like a there's like a whole like digital ecosystem. Uh I watched uh a school performance of this kid, it was like a middle school band of of kids doing the outer outer wilds theme uh of these middle schoolers. Um I like I I need to get one of these people on there. There's John Outer Wilds, who I follow, and then that's funny. That's his username is John Outer Wilds.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's it's because there's a joke in the Dark Souls community about like the main character just being called John Dark Souls. So the fact that his name is John Outer Wilds is, I'm sure, the same relationship.
SPEAKER_00:I that is what you need to do, Dempsey. You need to have your own people come on and talk about it with you.
SPEAKER_02:I okay, we are not um sounds like my I've uh I met some friends who are polyamorous uh when I went to Comic Con uh the uh the other week. And that's the kind of that you can't be everyone, anyways. Let's talk about value. Okay, yeah, something like that.
SPEAKER_03:I do have uh I have one last thing. Can't be everything to everyone, um, which is on the top.
SPEAKER_02:If you are listening to this, don't listen to Seth. Play Outer Wilds.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, don't get me wrong. You should play this game. No, I'm absolutely you should play this game.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, can watch the sun explode.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. I think Okay. I need to qualify this because I'm not saying Outer Wilds is bad by any means. I think. I think in a short time I have sort of gotten the thesis of Outer Wilds, and therefore, like I will return to it. Um I I did know the sun was gonna explode, which is kind of like I feel the important thing. Um and I do kind of understand it because we've talked about it before. You should play Outer Wilds. Despite knowing that, you should go play Outer Wilds. It does seem like a lovely game. Uh I just I'm not in like the right kind of mental space where like I feel like it's super valuable for me to play it, which will lead us into like our topic. But it's a great game. You should play it. It's maybe not a great game for me right now, but fair.
SPEAKER_00:I need to clap again. God damn it, Kane. I'm having trouble.
SPEAKER_02:Three, two, one, clap.
SPEAKER_03:MC's gonna kill.
SPEAKER_00:It's gonna be it's gonna be fine now the rest of the time because I made up I think I ran out of space on my phone. That's why it turned off. So I fixed it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. So let's talk value. I now I feel like an alpha male podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, oh, oh, the um what is it? The the fucking carousel of value or something like that from uh Bioshock.
SPEAKER_01:What the fuck are you doing?
SPEAKER_00:Do you know what I'm talking about?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, okay. You know, I do now, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You go you go to the vending machine and it's like I think they call it like the carousel of values, and it's the same voices, the carousel of value. And it's like stuck in my head and it's like a whole ecolalia thing. I can't help myself.
SPEAKER_02:That is not a detail that stayed with me from that game. Mostly I remember pipe puzzles. Was that a big part of Bioshock? Yeah, that's most of what I remember from Bioshock. Those are so fun. There's the pipe puzzles. Okay, so so the thesis of this episode is is Seth gonna get a switch to uh loosely, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So, okay, before the switch 2 came out, I I was still in school, I was talking with a student about it like every day. I was really excited. The prices for everything came out. I was a little less excited, but like was it like$700? No, I think it's like five for like the Switch 2 plus the Mario Kart bundle. Let me let me just look it up real quick, because I guess this yeah, it's 500 bucks. Which like is for the record, for like a gaming console is not like an insane amount of money. I think I spent like 400 on my PS5.
SPEAKER_00:But like but for a Nintendo gaming device that you know is gonna be several generations back in technology.
SPEAKER_03:Well, right. And so this is where like the value question comes into hand because I I know that I eventually want to get a Switch 2. Uh I'm gonna want to play Duskbloods, uh, the upcoming From Soft game when it comes out. Uh I I have heard mixed reviews about Mario Kart World, but the issue is like I don't have any other Switch 2 games I'm currently that interested in getting. And so that creates this question of like okay, I know I want to purchase this thing, but is it valuable for me to purchase right now? Um, and that's a little bit of what I'm like mentally wrestling with. But so just speaking in general, like what is it about like games or gaming in again, in a general sense, that like you find to be a valuable use of your time?
SPEAKER_02:I think until I have acts like direct access to the experiences, like I think retroactively it's a lot easier to talk about like why I like my PS5. But prior to owning a PS5, obviously I didn't have those reasons to like I did not know how good Ghost of Tsushima was before I played Ghost of Tsushima. So I think it's like the promise of those experiences, and I think it's the tradition, it's like the cultural tradition or the tradition of product that you are stepping into and you are buying your way into that ecosystem. And I think for me, the switch to simply does not have a strong enough tradition of product, like it doesn't have a culture around it that's really celebrating it. Like when I got a switch, when I when I stepped into getting a switch, there was already Tears of the Kingdom, there was already um Animal Crossing, Mario Kart, um, and kind of these not Tears of the Kingdom, uh Breath of the Wild. Um, and so like when I bought into that ecosystem, it was already kind of matured enough for people to be like, you gotta play Mario Odyssey. That's a that's a must-have for the Switch. This is you know, if you're gonna own this console, this is an important part of the experience. I don't feel like that exists for the Switch 2 yet. Like, I feel like Mario Kart, maybe the Donkey Kong game, possibly, but like it just doesn't feel like so I will probably wait a year. Like maybe like maybe during Christmas time, depending on like Metroid and things like that. Um or uh or uh but like more than likely, um I still play my Switch 1. I like playing Hollow Knight and Ori and all of my Switch 1 games. Uh like my indie games work really well. I probably won't play Tears of the Kingdom until uh I play it on the Switch 2, because I hear it runs a lot better on the Switch 2. Um and there there's a couple of first-party Nintendo games that I hear run a lot better on the Switch 2. So I think there is a value proposition. It just doesn't have the robust like community, tradition, library that I think is is I I don't know what I would be purchasing at this point, other than like, so I don't have to spend that money in a year. That's the kind of argument that I would have to make to myself in order to pull the trigger right now.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I ran into with the PlayStation 5 as well. Um I had a PS4, I could play all the games I wanted to play on my PS4, and it was then on it was only last like this last year that I finally bit the bullet because my PS4 just wasn't working properly anymore, so I had to upgrade. Um, but I think when the Switch came out, the landscape was very different. We didn't have the Steam Deck yet. Um so for me, the reason that I wanted to switch, because I'm not a huge Nintendo person, um, but I I wanted handheld and I wanted access to all of these cool indie games that I could get on the Switch that I couldn't get on my PlayStation. And I wanted to be able to play in bed. Um and also it was, I'm pretty sure it came out 2020. And I think that it was very wise in the way that it um was it 2020 or 2019? But in the way that it marketed itself because like Animal Crossing was the thing that people needed in that time. You know, the switch?
SPEAKER_02:The switch, yeah, the switch that came out, the switch came out in like 2016.
SPEAKER_00:Well, when did the Animal Crossing came out in 2020?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Animal Crossing came out in 2020.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's what it was. Animal Crossing came out in 2020.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that I didn't I didn't get a switch until like 2021.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I got my got my switch in 2020 because I was sad and lonely. And so I played Animal Crossing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but I think that I think the switch the switch came out in 2016, right?
SPEAKER_00:Was it that long ago? 2017. Okay, yeah, sorry. I'm behind I'm behind on the times, I don't know. Um disregard everything I've said. No, but but from a handheld perspective, the the landscape of handheld is really different now. So like to me it would be more worth it to buy my Steam Deck than to get a Switch 2. But if it's something that you're planning to do with like a friend or partner, then the Switch 2 might be a better choice because it's more optimized for that kind of gameplay versus the Steam Deck, which is not Yeah, I think I think you're 100% right about the Steam Deck.
SPEAKER_02:I think the Steam Deck is a big reason why I'm not needing to fill uh to fill the like that's where the the Switch 2 shaped hole in my heart is being filled by right now. Um is the Steam Deck. And I think and I think the beauty of the Steam Deck is you have access to more games. Um that there's like a billion, there's like a a billion like you know, small, really small indie games that you have access to that that don't have to because it's easy it's easier to get on Steam than it is to get on the Switch store. And so I think uh yeah, first party Nintendo is the reason why I would buy a Switch, and there's just not enough first party Nintendo at the moment to to justify that for me.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean this you know arguments as a whole, right? It makes sense. Like I'm looking at I don't own a Steam Deck, right? So like in terms of value, uh and no, I don't to be fair, I still don't really do like a lot of mobile gaming. Like I do play a lot of games on like on my phone. But not that I think about it, there's nothing really like stopping me from being like, oh, like we're playing a game on the couch. Like I could I could play Bug Fables or uh you know, I could play any of those other like Switch games I have. Um you know, we have been playing a lot of like Mario Kart recently, so it would be fun to like upgrade to the newest Mario Kart, which looks a lot of fun. So like from our conversation so far, like Dempsey, you mentioned like tradition and like community is like you know, value to you for like the gaming sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I think and I think like for example, for like the PS5, because I've been so invested in the PS5 and I'm a part of that like community and discourse, and first party Sony titles are very important to me, I'm probably more likely to jump on the PS6. Uh, because that's the tradition of video games that I feel more connected to. And so, although like when the Switch 2 comes out, I'm probably gonna wait a year or two, but when like you know, in in five years, whatever, when the PS6 comes out, I think I'm really likely to get that day one or as soon as I can because I really want to be a particip that that that tradition is more important to me than than the Nintendo community is.
SPEAKER_00:So there's like an element of timeliness if you're part of the community, because you don't want to have that FOMO of missing out on the discovery phase while everybody else is having a discovery phase.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_00:I was thinking that about Death Stranding actually, and how cool it would be to play Death Stranding 2 when it first comes out, because nobody's put you know their mark on the world yet. Um and so that is a valuable experience. That being said, I think when it comes to choosing things like uh especially like a large purchase like a console, I think um for me the value is like very practical. Like do I need this? Does it fit a niche that I don't already have filled? Otherwise, I mean I will wait five years to get the next console.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and I I I'm literally running into both sides, and this is why I'm sort of like sitting on sitting on the switch too right now, is like I look at myself when I played Elden Ring, because I literally played Elden Ring uh like as soon as I could. I pre-downloaded Elden Ring on my PS5, I played it like at midnight, and I played like 48 hours the first weekend that I could have possibly played Elden Ring. Like I played so much Elden Ring. Um, and that was very valuable to me like as an experience, because then like I could go on the Elden Ring subreddit and like see other people like experiencing the game as I was also experiencing it, and I had other friends who were also like really excited to play the game, and we could talk about like, oh, I just went to here, like you should check this thing out. Uh, and that was cool to be like you know, part of this like micro community playing this game for the first time, and like being able to experience that. But I mean, I've also been on the other side of that where like sometimes you get to a game that's like five years late, and then there's all you know, everybody's played and passed it. Um Katie, I'm sure if you continue to play Rogue Legacy, you're gonna experience this a little bit where like you know, Rogue Legacy 2 is already out, um, and that's already also a fairly old game at this point. I think Rogue Legacy 2 came out like three or four years ago. So most people who are gonna play Rogue Legacy 2 have already like played it and moved on. So there's a lot less of like a community aspect to playing that game. Um the other side of it though, right, is like you said, Katie, what's the sort of niche it covers for me? And like I already own a Switch. And most of the games I'm gonna want to play on the Switch too, I could just play on my Switch. Like, yeah, I could play, I could replay Bug Fables, but like I can also just do that on my Switch. Or like I don't know, we could play the new Mario Kart. But like I do have Mario Kart 8, and we had somebody over last night to and they were just hanging and we were playing it, and like we played a track or two that like we had never played yet. Like just because that game has like so many tracks with the DLC.
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna say that's a yeah, that's a kind of a behemoth of a game.
SPEAKER_03:So like there's still a lot of experiences in that game I haven't had yet.
SPEAKER_02:There is something about the satisfaction in knowing you have access to the best version of something. And I think if I was to buy the Switch 2, that's a itch that it would be scratching for me. Like um, like I have access to NSO, right, Nintendo Switch Online, but I can't play GameCube games on it. Right? And like I don't know if that's like necessarily affecting my quality of life or whatever, but there is something I think satisfying about knowing that you have access to all of these, like all of the best features. It's uh I I got a PS5 Pro, um, which was partly because I gave my PS5 to my mom so she can play Baldur's Gate, and so it was partly uh as a gift to someone, um, but also partly because like I like having a PS5 Pro, knowing that when uh Ghost of Yotai comes out, I'm gonna be playing that and it's gonna be looking the best it could possibly look. And even if even if the material experience is not actually that much difference, there's something satisfying in my brain that is like comforting about like this is like the the uh canonical like artistic vision. This is the best way to experience that.
SPEAKER_03:And I think there's some value for you in like having this in like maybe a better way, like it was supposed to be shown.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, and like I think like Tears of the Kingdom is a good example of that, of like knowing like I own Tears of the Kingdom, but knowing that I can play Tears of the Kingdom in the best way possible, I think uh I think there's also some value of that. And that's kind of like uh I don't know, that feels a lot more intangible, but it's definitely something that I think about. Um like I'll I'll buy a TV like once every like five to seven years. And uh for me uh I place a lot of importance on on my TV purchase, and I want like the best reason like the best technology that's available for consumers in in my TV. I want like the OLED or like the deepest blacks or stuff like that, just so I know that when I'm watching a movie and I'm experiencing it at home, I'm experiencing like the best possible version of that. And yeah, I think yeah, the Switch 2 is a version of everything.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's funny that you mentioned the TV, Dempsey, because that's what I was thinking about, but I come at it from the completely opposite perspective, in that once you take the TV home and you don't have anything to compare it to, good enough. You never know the difference. I agree with that, and that's where I run into with like when I was playing things on my PS4 versus getting the PS5. Like, I knew that Horizon Forbidden West wasn't in the greatest fidelity compared to what I would get on the PS5, but I didn't care because I wasn't watching someone else play the PS5 right next to me, you know? And so to me, that that kind of value doesn't hold a lot of weight for me. It's um but that like what you said about having access, not necessarily to, oh, I've got the best technology or I know I've got the best graphical quality, but oh, I can play any of the games in the Steam, you know, the Steam store. That was hugely valuable to me um when deciding between a Steam Deck and like a PS5 at the time. And so just the option to be able to get all of these games and have a thousand games in my library that I'm never gonna play, it's still consumerism, uh, but it feels more practical to me. And so then that's okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, like it sounds like if if I'm just sort of like running this value idea through like the the thesis generator. Like Dempsey, it sounds like the the thing that's valuable to you for this sort of gaming experience is like the community aspect, but then also like the the vision. Like it's valuable to you to have like good technology to recognize like the vision of what this is supposed to be.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's a difference for me between playing a game like there's some games that are PS5 games and some games that are Steam Deck games. And even if a PS5 can run, or even if a Steam Deck can run some games, I'm still not gonna put that on uh put that on my Steam Deck that's a PS5 game. So like uh like Baldur's Gate, your your uh Steam Deck can run Baldur's Gate, but that's I don't like that. I want the Baldur's Gate is a PS5 game because that's the best way to that, you know. A har a high high-end PC would be the best version, but that's like I don't I don't want to mess with that.
SPEAKER_03:I mean it makes me think of like um probably the most relatable experience for people is like like I can go to a movie, I can go to a movie theater and like watch a movie, or I can like wait for it to come to like a streaming service and watch it at home, but those are gonna be like two very different experiences. Like if you really want to experience a movie, you should probably like go to a movie theater and like yeah, it's gonna cost you like 14 or 15 bucks or whatever a movie ticket costs now, but like you're gonna get a much like fuller experience out of that. And like that comes at a premium.
SPEAKER_00:Unless the experience that you value is being able to sit on your couch in your pajamas and pop your own popcorn and watch it in the comfort of your own home, in which case it's valuable enough to rent it for four bucks.
SPEAKER_03:And this is right, this is to me sort of the difference between like uh your your value systems at play here, right? Like I see Debsy as like valuing like the community aspect. He wants to write like a letterboxed review about this movie that he just watched that just came out, and he wants other people to see his letterboxed review and give it a like because you know, bigger number makes him feel like a better person. Um then Katie, you're like, I don't care about those things. Like the monetary value is what's important to me. So like I'll just wait for it to be on a streaming service or like be able to rent it for like four bucks because like what do I care? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because the experience that I'm looking for is more important than the uh aesthetic experience, if that makes sense. Yeah, like it doesn't need to be as beautiful and sound as great as it would in the movie theater because I want to watch it on my couch.
SPEAKER_03:Right, which I think like and I I have a lot of complaints about the internet that I've been seething about in person. But like the the internet would I think like paint these two like takes as like at odds with each other and like one of them being correct and the other one being wrong, but like I really I both of these sound like completely valid takes to me on like the value prospect, right? And relating it back to like the the PS5 idea here, it's like do I want to get this thing like sooner? Because I know that there's some sort of like value I'll get out of like being part of like a community and being able to play these games early, or like five hundred dollars is five hundred dollars, right? There is some sort of like monetary, like literal value aspect to this that's like should I be spending like five hundred dollars on the newest console like when I already own a Switch that is like really perfectly capable of doing all the things that I want it to do?
SPEAKER_00:I don't know, like I don't you know, and where have you landed? I mean, so to me the answer is very apparent. I mean don't get it right now.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I mean that's my answer now. It's like I you know, yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_02:Um do you think there's something nice knowing that you don't have to buy it later though?
SPEAKER_03:It might go on sale later. Well, that's just the thing, it's on sale now, technically. Because the the$500 version I can get, I I think it's$550, comes with like Mario Kart. I technically at a discount, because I think after this it's gonna be like$80 or 90 bucks.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Mario Kart by itself costs$80, but if you get a bundle, it's only costs like$50.
SPEAKER_00:What's it gonna do on Black Friday?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but like okay, that's but see, this is where it's like, is it that waking up early or like fighting people on Black Friday not valuable to me.
SPEAKER_00:Are you in create are you at saying no no internet, internet Black Friday? Cybermode.
SPEAKER_03:No, even that is like I I don't feel like fighting bots for like internet sales or something. Like, don't plus I think the Switch 2 is too new. I don't think it's really going on like sale for Black Friday.
SPEAKER_02:I don't I don't think it's gonna go on sale for Black Friday.
SPEAKER_00:So get all the people who haven't bought it already who are on the fence about buying it for their kid, they'll be like, oh look, it's a hundred bucks off.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean uh okay, but also like you know, I should have invested in Google when I was born, but like I didn't. So like, well what? I can't, you know, see the future.
SPEAKER_02:Uh this is the Bitcoin argument.
SPEAKER_00:This is I just I need to tell my I need to make an alarm on my phone to check the switch prices in Black Friday.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, just to like just to stick it to me.
SPEAKER_02:Is there is there anything that the Switch 2 could have been because I think with the Switch it's it's different with the because I feel like the Switch because you have a PC, so like any indie games you can play on Steam.
SPEAKER_03:I can play virtually any game that comes out as long as it's not like a console exclusive.
SPEAKER_00:You had mentioned before. Oh, I'm sorry, Dempsey, keep going.
SPEAKER_02:No, I was just gonna say, like, because the the Switch 2 is so iterative, where it's basically just like the Switch, but a little bit better, do you think there's anything they could have given you that would have made it more worth it?
SPEAKER_03:Um I mean like right now what I'm seeing is I guess my main problem is it just doesn't feel like there's a lot of like games right now. Like if I was more if I was more confident in like I am gonna buy this thing and then I'm gonna have like a lot of stuff to do with it like right now. I guess I'm falling into the like Gen Z lack of delayed gratification thing. But like I want to buy like a Switch and then I want to have like stuff to do with it. Like I I understand objectively that like yeah, Dusk Bloods will come out at some point and like the new Pokemon game for will be coming out for Switch 2, and like I'm gonna want to play it.
SPEAKER_00:So is that in that case, if you think about it like that, if a game costs 60 bucks, so that's$120. So is it are those two games that you're willing to spend$720 to play?
SPEAKER_02:Right. I don't think that's how console math works. I don't know. It is sort of how for model games.
SPEAKER_00:It is$500 for the game for the doorstop.
SPEAKER_02:Right, because so then by that logic, every time you buy a game, the console gets cheaper.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_03:No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um price per hour goes down the more time I spend on it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and this is this is another thing I wanted to bring up the benchmark. Um Okay, so my two things about this is Katie's not wrong. Sorry. I because people and I've done this before, where you like assign like, hey, this thing is gonna be value to me if I get like X amount of entertainment out of it, like per dollar spent. We only have so many dollars to like throw around in our lives on silly things like video games. Um so like I one that I've heard people say before is like, oh, I want to be able to get like a dollar per like hour of game, an hour per dollar I spend on this game. So like if I spend 60 bucks on this game, I want to be able to get like 60 hours out of it. And I I think obviously that works for like some games. Like, I don't know, if I'm buying like the newest Call of Duty and I spend like 70 bucks on it, like I don't know, I probably want to play it for like 70 hours. But there's a lot of games I've played where like if it's a shorter experience, that's not necessarily true. Like the beginner's guide, I I don't know, I paid like 10 bucks for it and it's like a 90-minute game. You know?
SPEAKER_00:The way that I've heard my brother and I have talked about this before, and he's like, you know, if a game costs$15 and you play it for two or three hours, he uses the movie analogy, you know, you spend that to go to a movie. So what's the problem there, you know? So I I do think you don't necessarily have to get like one-to-one, but I think it's not a I don't think it's a delayed gratification thing to not want to spend$500 now on something that doesn't have a lot to offer. Especially when you have to pay for those things that it has to offer, and they're not even that like at the moment enticing.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's like, you know, it's like paying to get into the Renfare and then having to pay a bunch of other money, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like video games are Renfairs. You're so right.
SPEAKER_03:Video game consoles are Renaissance fairs. Um That's so true. But like, because I again I know that eventually I will get more value out of this. Like the new Pokemon games come out more. And I know that there are games that will come out down the line that I will want to play on my Switch. Yeah, but that just don't exist yet. But I guess that's kind of the that would be the scary part about purchasing a console right now, is that's like uh uh an unknown in the future, right? So, you know, if it takes six months for those games to come out, like what is my life gonna look like in six months? Is my relationship to my Switch 2 gonna have changed? Or like, is my life gonna be in a different spot where like I'm not really gonna have time to play these new games when they come out? Like, yeah, it used to be that like a game would come out and I could spend 48 hours in a single weekend playing it, but now like I live with my girlfriend and I don't have the ability to do that anymore because A, she would yell at me, and B, I shouldn't be doing that anyway. Um I you know, I actually have somebody around to tell me that to observe you and to be like when you're doing that. This is dumb, go to bed. And I'm like, yeah, that's right, you're right. Like, I don't wish to be perceived, thank you. I yeah, I don't wish to be perceived, go away. Um so I you know I I I don't know what it is. It's um I think there's this interesting like will I don't this is the thing, you know, do I want to be spending five hundred and fifty dollars or whatever on a switch to tonight? Eh. But like, do I have the monetary means to? I mean, I guess. Do you have like money as well?
SPEAKER_00:Just because you have the money doesn't mean you can afford it. That's something that I learned.
SPEAKER_03:But like, okay. But I'm in a spot where I can afford it, is the long story short.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So it's gonna do it.
SPEAKER_02:Get it now, and then it'll be free later.
SPEAKER_00:That's don't do it now, and then when you it's actually worth it, you can do it.
SPEAKER_03:The least helpful mental processing, because the Dempsey's on my left shoulder being like, buy it, buy it, buy it. And Katie's like, Don't buy it, don't buy it.
SPEAKER_00:No, if you're gonna buy anything, buy a Steam Deck, dude. You already have a massive library.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but like play it on handheld. I like have a computer that I can play it.
SPEAKER_00:Sure, emulation or something like that. I don't know how that works.
SPEAKER_02:You're gonna I think it's a little more common. Pirate the newest pirate Mario Kartwork.
SPEAKER_00:We are not endorsing crimes unless you can do it without getting caught. No, just kidding. Um just kidding. I'm a teacher, I'm held to a higher standard.
SPEAKER_02:That's is that true? If you buy it now, your future self will thank you. Your future self will be like, Thank god I don't have to buy it now that's not a good thing.
SPEAKER_00:What about future self when something else$500 that you'd like to buy, like a trip to Disneyland or something with your girlfriend?
SPEAKER_02:That Seth's not going to Disneyland.
SPEAKER_00:That's also way more than that. He can't go to Disney World. Not for$500, he's not. That's true.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe like 10x, but yeah. All right.
SPEAKER_00:I think I think we did an episode. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Let us know if you're gonna buy the switch too, or if you already bought the switch too, or a Steam Deck, or a PS5. Let us know.
SPEAKER_00:Because I'm right. Thank you so much for listening. This has been Overthinking Games, a podcast about what games can teach us. Um, we said it at the beginning, but I'll just tell you again send us an email, it's in the show notes, and you can find us on TikTok and all the places that you find your podcasts. Thanks. Bye.
SPEAKER_03:Bye.
SPEAKER_01:Bye.