Overthinking Games
Overthinking Games is a podcast about what video games can teach us. We look at video games through an educational and critical lens.
Overthinking Games
Ep 68: Solitude vs. Isolation
Loneliness
Join us as our loneliness diminishes because Brett, of Lore’d to Death, joins the whole gang for a regular episode of Overthinking Games!
We discuss loneliness in videogames; dissect isolation vs. solitude; repeatedly talk over each other as we learn to be a 4-person band; and everyone wishes they could just play Silksong instead of being adults with jobs.
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We’ve got more Shorts and content coming your way! Share your favorite lonely-vibes game, tell us which game helps you feel a little less lonely, or suggest a topic for our next episode by sending us an email! overthinkinggamespodcast@gmail.com
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Okay. Um so as I was saying, it is time for someone else to get bullied on the internet, and it's Seth's turn because I we posted it today, September 4th, 2025. Uh Stokes Long Day. Happy Stokes Long Day, everybody. Happy Stokes Long Day. Yep. And we posted Seth's take about Baldur's Gate being bad, which obviously is a very unpopular opinion on TikTok. Did he get ratio? I have we, yes, we are. Um a lot of people are defending it because of the RNG. So they said that if you auto-saved, it would lock the RNG in, and so you couldn't go back and redo things. Is kind of the biggest, seems to be the biggest consensus of why uh consistent autosave would be bad, because it would lock you into choices that you couldn't get out of. And in a game that's so RNG dependent, that would be a bad thing. Um anyways, so I got bullied for several things. First of all, my take about another crab's treasure was very unpopular, saying that that's not a deep game. Um and then my pronunciation of Sakero. Sakiro? That one's fair. Sekar is also some is also something that uh I get bullied for. So, anyways, go bully Seth on TikTok. Follow us on TikTok. Um today is Silksong Day. However, we have not all played Silksong, so we're not gonna talk about Silksong. We are gonna talk about a Team Cherry adjacent topic, I feel, which is how loneliness affects games. Um, the welcome to Everything Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us. Also, we need to introduce ourselves first. So my name is Dempsey. I'm today's uh it's my topic today. Uh Katie, say hi.
SPEAKER_04:Hi, I'm Katie.
SPEAKER_01:Uh hi. I apparently get made fun of on the internet now. I'm Seth. Also, I if if oh I I'm not even gonna get into the ball this time. Saying the problem is that the autosaves uh just make more autosaves. Nobody said you had to overwrite the previous autosave, just make another one.
SPEAKER_02:They already had memory leak issues related to saves, but I'm Brett. Hi.
SPEAKER_03:So Brett, so listeners will know Brett. Brett was on last episode, and Brett is um flirting with becoming a member, I think. Right now, he's kind of couch surfing. Brett has a really good podcast called Lord's Death that he's taking a break from. And so while he's not working on that, he's gonna come and hang out with us um for who knows how long. Um so we're very happy to have it as long as he'll have us. Yeah. So um, and also Brett's been uh working on some of the audio as well, which frees me up to work on the TikTok. And so if there's more content coming out and uh more comments and things like that, that's because the workload has now been split. And we're probably gonna have more consistent episodes too. So kind of an all-around better experience, honestly.
SPEAKER_04:Oh maybe and maybe we'll become maybe we'll become more professional at our intro.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Um, yeah, so so our topic today is loneliness, how loneliness affects games, um, the feeling of loneliness, uh, what loneliness means to us in video games. Um, I think this relates to Hollow Knight because Hollow Knight feels like a very lonely game, and Silksong does not. Silksong feels like it's filled so far. I think Silksong feels like it's filled with characters who have things to say, and your protagonist talks. So Silksong, she's chatty. She likes to talk to people. She has opinions and things in the way that the Hollow Knight, what's his name? The pale night? It's the night, isn't it? I don't know. Is it just the night? Remember. The vessel or something like that? Oh, the hollow vessel? And the way that he Yeah, something like that. And the way that the Hollow Knight never did. He never had these opinions and conversations and things like that. And so there's a lot more uh there's a lot more communication in silk song. Anyways, but before we do that, it's very important that we talk about what we've been playing this week. I will go first, and then I'll kick it off to the rest of the class. So I have been playing um, well, I played a bit of silk song today, and um, this is what I'll say. I I'm not in far enough to have any spoilers. Um it's really beautiful. Like, um, so I'm playing it on my um Switch OLED. So I don't have a Switch 2, and I didn't want to put it on my Steam Deck because I think my OLED has better uh like better visuals, especially for something that's not gonna like it runs at 60 frames a second on the Switch, so like it's not a demanding game at all. So um I've been really enjoying it. Um the sound design is so good. Every all the music, all the ways the characters talk, um, the way that music is like seems to be like a theme of the game so far. Like it's a recurring motif, which is called Silk Song, so I guess that makes sense. Um but it's like good, interesting music. I forget that video games are like a really important piece of art, and this is like a there's a lot of beauty in this game so far. Um other than that, I what else have I think I uh I've been playing a little bit of uh the dating simulator game, um Date Everything, which I think so last time I said that if you like dating simulators, I think you'll like this game. And I like dating simulators, but maybe not enough to finish this game. Um Womp Womp. It's yeah, it's good. There's not there's not, I would say that the problem's not with the game. I think the problem's with me. Um there is like an interesting mystery, and I think all the characters are pretty well written. And as you date them more, their emotional problems get more fleshed out and more complicated. So they start out as like these characters of kind of dating stereotypes, and then as you go on more dates with them, it's kind of like a lot of them work as like a deconstruction of the trope that started it or whatever. Um, it's a very horny game. Uh it's yeah, it it's you kind of know if you like it or like if the if the idea appeals to you, then you're gonna like it and get some enjoyment out of it. I got like 15 hours worth of enjoyment out of it. So I think it's pretty good. Like I think it's a good game. I like it. I would suggest it. It's just I guess Silk Song's out now, so I don't really have any like there's there's really nothing else I want more than to play more silk song. So, Katie, what have you been playing this week?
SPEAKER_04:Um, let's see. So gone back to school and teaching and all the things, and uh I haven't been playing very much of anything, except for I did play 120 hours of Rimworld over the last like month. So, you know, not much of anything. Um But yeah, I was like, oh, I'm gonna try all these different new games, and I was like, no, nope, I'm just gonna keep building my colony. Um and I love it because it's just perfect for when your brain is too tired to be really engaged with the story, but you still kind of want to give a shit. Um it's like the perfect level of micromanaging and like system development and narrative craziness. So um I've been really enjoying that. And I got the downloadable content so that my characters could have babies because I'm 33 and that's the stage of my life right now. I'm like my babies would be good. But um, yeah, so that's been good. Um, and then I've also been playing Sudoku on my phone quite a bit, and uh Sudoku's great, and people should play Sudoku, it's really fun. But what I like about the Sudoku that I play is that it has um a hint system that actually teaches you how to play rather than just telling you what the answer is. So click a hint and it gives you one step. It's like, look at this row, and you look at the row and you think, oh shit, I see it now. That's what I missed, I got it. Or you don't get it, so you click next and it gives you another little piece of the hint until it eventually explains the whole thing to you. And it tells you the name of whatever principle it is that you are um that is affecting the row or the block that you're looking at. And I really like that because I've tried Sudoku many, many times in the past, and numbers and patterns and spatial shit is not my thing at all. Um, but actually being taught how to think about it logically and how to interact with it, I've actually gotten a lot better. So it's it's been a fun, fun way to play. Who knew you needed to be taught how to play Sudoku? Not I. But yeah, that's pretty much all I've been playing. I've been reading a lot, which I'll leave for if we have time for an honorable mention. But that's about it. Seth, what have you been playing?
SPEAKER_03:Hold on, wait, wait. Katie, uh I forgot one game. There's a game that I've played that I talked about last episode, but you weren't on that I wanted to just get your uh so I've played I've been playing slowly uh uh Senua Saga Hellblade, Hellblade Senua Saga. And I know you and I know you like that game a lot. I am that game. It is difficult to play. Like I think I have not played it because it is literally a difficult game to play. Like it's like emotionally or mechanically, just like sensorily, like it feels like you're having a stroke, and it's some of the most uncomfortable combat ever, and it feels like it feels like sleep paralysis as you're trying to like walk through, and even just the beginning, like when like the fires happen, and then you have to like go through the fires. Like it's it's one of the most emotionally like uh impactful games, not in like its writing is really beautiful, or like not in it, just like literally the sensory experience is so emotionally taxing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's one of my favorite games of all time. I'm actually that's when I have some more bandwidth, I'm really looking forward to playing Hellblade 2. Um, but yeah, when I played that game, I played it handheld in the dark with headphones on, and it was the most immersive experience, and that feeling of like breath on the back of your neck. Like they do such a good job with the soundscape. You feel like there's something behind you, like it's incredible. Um what I've read about it is that it's a very uh accurate depiction of what psychosis can be like, and I find that very interesting because that's not something that I think gets a lot of playtime in media without being like, oh, the bad guy's a psycho, you know. So I'm I'm interested to see what happens in the second game, but I won't I won't spoil anything for you. Just keep playing, it's worth it.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Okay, Seth, sorry.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's all good. Uh I mean, so I'm also on the Soksong grind a little bit. I I did I think you started a lot earlier in the day than I did. I only had a chance to play for like a couple hours after work. But like I've been I think I'm already on like the third area or something. Um I have a couple upgrades. It's I've Have you got fast travel? Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, I have not, so you're ahead of me.
SPEAKER_04:Oh wow, okay. Me and Brett are over here mourning.
SPEAKER_01:You guys will enjoy it. I mean, like, I I I mean I am not that far into it, but like it's not at least yet, like revolutionary. It's just really good. I mean, maybe I'll get to the point where it like feels really revolutionary, but um otherwise, games otherwise I've been playing this week. Uh Brett, did we talk about last time that I played Pissant, which you recommended?
SPEAKER_02:Yep. I think you did talk about that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Super Jang. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Chess Rose Light. The check chess roselite.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, nothing else super interesting to add there. Um, but I've been playing a game that I just kind of happened upon. I think it was on sale. It's called Nine Kings. Uh, I actually think all of you would probably enjoy this game. It's a it's a deck builder roguelite. So like Slay the Spire-esque. You have you start the game with a three by three like plots of land. And then your cards that you play are loosely like towers in a tower defense sense. Where like, oh, I can place troops and I can place towers, and then, oh, maybe I can like play a card on one of my towers that's like plus five, plus ten damage. But then maybe I can put a tower next to my troops that at the end of every round it gives them like plus two percent attack speed. So the game is like not super hard by like any stretch. I've like almost a hundred percent this game already, and I've only played it for about the Steam says 17 hours, and I know that like almost half of that is AFK time that I just like accidentally left the game on. Runs take like 20 minutes, so like very approachable, very like respects your time, very fun. Like, I it was one of those games where I just constantly found myself being like, Oh no, like I could do one more round. Oh no, no, no, like I could do one more round. Like, uh, it's only another round, what is it gonna be like one minute? Um, and then you know, you just get stuck in that, like one more, one more, one more. And especially if you go into the later rounds, because I think each run only gets you to like year 36, I think. But you could try and push for all the way up to like year a hundred. And by the time you get to like the year a hundred ones, you know, you're pushing like 45 minutes or something, and that's when you're really like one more minute. Um, and then you know, just trying to keep stacking, stacking, stacking. So that game is a ton of fun. It's still in development, it's called Nine Kings. I think it was like super duper cheap. Um, checking the Steam page right now. Yeah, you can get it for 10 bucks on sale right now on Steam. If you're listening to this, it's 20 bucks. But like it's it would be worth it at 20 bucks. It's a good time. So you guys should check that out. Nine Kings. Nice. Um, it would also think it would be really good on all your Steam Decks too, because everyone here has a Steam Deck, I think, except me.
SPEAKER_04:Brett, do you have a Steam Deck?
SPEAKER_02:No. I mourn not having a Steam Deck with Silksong coming out because I would really love to play it on the go.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good point. Yeah, I picked up Silksong on my PlayStation 5 because I was like, this is gonna be a game that's better on controller than like keyboard mouse, which Dempsey agree, like Oh yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03:I would not like to play this on keyboard mouse.
SPEAKER_01:Um, can we also uh uh quickly while we're on topic, can we talk about the fact that Silksong is$20?
SPEAKER_04:I can't believe it.
SPEAKER_03:That's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's it's actually might be like the craziest gaming thing I've heard in a long time.
SPEAKER_04:I feel like they were like, we just want like they barely announced it finally after all this time, and then they're like 20 bucks, please, we're trying to give this shit away. We're sorry we made you wait so long.
SPEAKER_01:Which is actually wild. You know, like one of the most hyped up like indie games of the decade. And yeah, the developers literally went like, oh, we're we're practically giving it away. We don't need the money.
SPEAKER_04:I know.
SPEAKER_01:And yeah, also it's coming out in two weeks. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It crashed Steam in Nintendo and PlayStation stores.
SPEAKER_04:Oh the PlayStation Network is down right now. I wondered if like why that was.
SPEAKER_01:I wonder if it's to do with uh No, I was able to get it downloaded earlier today, but I I wonder if it's like uh West Coast coming off work or something.
SPEAKER_04:There was also a massive Warzone update, which made everybody have to delete their whole Warzone file and reinstall it, which is like a hundred gigs. So maybe that's what he's downloading Warzone.
SPEAKER_02:Well, so I went on this morning to play some Hollow Knight before work, just like a little bit, and because I'm not on the Silksong train yet, um, but I was playing a little bit of Hollow Knight, and I had to force my entire PlayStation offline because it was trying to connect to servers trying to play Hollow Knight, which was wild. I didn't really understand that. Um, but I had to force my PlayStation offline just so I could play Hollow Knight. And I'm assuming it's because Silksong crashed everything.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Which again, wild that they're giving it away for$20.
SPEAKER_04:I literally just bought Silksong just now on the podcast because I was like, oh yeah, I haven't bought it yet, and I need to have it on handheld because I know I'm gonna be really bad at it, so I need to be able to like play while I'm vaguely listening to something else on the TV when I get too frustrated and have to take a break.
SPEAKER_00:That makes sense.
SPEAKER_03:I'm so excited to see if you break your body again.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I am older, but maybe wiser. Maybe I won't cause myself major tendinitis in my thumb. We'll see.
SPEAKER_02:Gotta do some.
SPEAKER_04:Did you know about that, Brett?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, a little bit. But I also I'm I'm a creative type. I use my hands for work for everything. And then my hobby is gaming and also playing instruments and a little part of your thumb.
SPEAKER_04:It's very, very tender.
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna get carpal tunnel by the time that I'm 35, and I've accepted that. It's my life.
SPEAKER_01:I still have one more quick mention, which is that uh I played a little bit more Marvel Rivals. I think I talked about that like last week as well.
SPEAKER_03:You're never happy when you do that.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's not like fun. Uh I think I said probably the same thing last week where I was like, I didn't really have a good time, but I was like, I don't know, maybe I'll cue up some more ranked and see if it's fun. No, it's not.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, like Isn't it like a squad-based game? Like a like an overwatch style game. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's literally an overwatch style game, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, but I mean, man, is it frustrating to like I mean, Katie, I'm sure you deal with this a lot. Uh you like random queue one of these games and like ranked, and then like your teammates are just the worst players you've ever met in your life. Like it's you're placed with them. No, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02:See, I wouldn't so annoyed by the thing.
SPEAKER_01:It's like No, Marvel Rivals doesn't have placement matches. It just when you boot up the game at a new season, it just throws you in bronze three.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I think it's automatically I think it drops you like three steps basically or something like that. So that's what I haven't. I I got up to like platinum or something, and it dropped me also into bronze.
SPEAKER_01:I got up to platinum, but I now it's like season three, so I missed a couple like rank resets. So now I'm I'm down in shitter tier. And because it's not like the start of a new season where everybody gets a rank drop, I'm playing with all the people who are like stuck bronze too. And like I I don't play DPS, I play almost exclusively like healer. And like I I can't heal you out of overextending. Like, I don't know what to tell you.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so my solution to that is just play cloak and dagger, but then just play DPS. Like, just just just play cloak, like honestly. And like I I swear to god, I climb myself out of bronze every single time by just exclusively playing cloak and dagger. Heal sometimes, heal when you can, put down the AoE heals, and then just go into their backline as cloak and just start eliminating everyone. It's it's so strong when no one knows how to play the game. It's like it's bad in every other rank, but in bronze, it's incredible.
SPEAKER_01:See, the problem is you're telling me to go play more Marvel rivals, which is like not something that needs to be encouraged.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just don't, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I have silksong to go play anyway. I'll be okay. Anyway, Brett, what have you been playing this week?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I have been playing Hollow Knight in preparation for playing Silksong because I I think Metroidvania's are my favorite genre, or at least one of my favorite genres, but I'm really bad at them. Like, really bad at them. I don't know what it is about having to like rescan the map 18 times every time you get an upgrade, but my brain just turns to jelly. Um, and I really have to acclimatize myself to playing Metroid Vanias every time I want to play one, um, or else it's just really hard because I don't know, I'm an old man or something. But so I've been playing Hollow Knight. Um, it's been really great. I'm almost done it. And at this point, I'm just gonna finish it before I play Silksong because I why would I just drop it? Like I I might as well just finish it. Um so I probably won't get to play until like Monday, Tuesday.
SPEAKER_04:But you're gonna finish it in that time? Did you start over?
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah, I started a new playthrough on what was that? When was I talking? That was on last week? Yeah, that was like yeah, whenever that was that we talked about it. Yeah. Um it's you know, don't tell my boss this. I hope they're not ever gonna listen to this. Um I've been playing during work. Uh it's been really slow, and if it's slow and I don't have any orders, I just pick up my controller and I just do something. So I can just get in a few hours during the day. And uh it's made the run a little bit easier. No, it's also taken me so long.
SPEAKER_04:I've put like 80 hours into it.
SPEAKER_02:I think I'm this place a second time. If you already know where it is, I think I'm I think I'm about like 40, 40 hours or something like that. Because I again I have to go through. I don't know, but even then I look up how long to beat, and people are like, oh, you should beat it in like 20 something hours. I'm like, I don't know. I don't understand how. That just it doesn't make sense in my brain. But um, other than Hollow Knight, I right before I picked up Hollow Knight again, I started finishing a game that I play, started playing back when it came out. Oh god, when did this game come out? It's called The Thaumaturge. Um, it's made by a Polish game studio, and it's like a turn-based, like kind of persona-ish game, but it's set in like Soviet Poland, so it's like when the it's it's it's kind of like it's a historical piece that has like fictional elements. So it's like you you play as this guy who is coming back, and and he he he he's he's what you call a Thomaturge, which is basically you have these like ghostly minions that you can summon in battle, and you can also like read people's minds and manipulate people, and they're they're they're basically viewed as sorcerers, and everyone hates you. Um, but you're coming back and you meet Rasputin, and then he helps you out of your like ghost man slump. Uh, and then it's you and Rasputin. It's like it's like Rasputin before he's uh gone into like the SARS family. So you're like trying to help him get back to Soviet Russia to infiltrate the SAR family while also trying to figure out your like, I don't know, your your your dad died and he left you his grimoire, which is where all your magical powers come from, and you're trying to find your dead dad's grimoire, but also try to help Rasputin. It's a very strange game, but it's really cool. Um and it's also like so it's made by a Polish game studio, but they dubbed it over exclusively in English, and then only like six or seven months later released a Polish dub for it. So I recently turned on the Polish dub for it, um, because like I'm I'm trying to learn Polish uh for my wife and her family, and so it's like helping me pick up some words here and there just to like listen to Polish, and I think it's really cool. Um but yeah, I initially learned about this game because uh I I know a guy, I worked with a guy who voice acted in the game, and I was trying to find him in the game like while I was playing it, and it turns out he just played like minion number one, like he did I don't know, it made it made it sound like he maybe had a bigger role, and I was like, Are you this guy? And he's like, No. No, I wish. I was like, Oh, yeah, fair enough. Um so that's pretty much I mean, it's been Hollow Knight and the Thaumaturge. I I'm gonna put down the Thaumaturge again for the second time, and I'll probably finish it next year. Honestly, it's I'll I'll come back to it eventually. It's a hard game to get into.
SPEAKER_04:It kind of looks like it kind of this was on my wish list, and it kind of reminded me of um Disco Elysium, just like the art style and stuff.
SPEAKER_02:That's kind of initially why I picked it up, yeah. Or that and my I you know, this guy said that he was uh voicing in it, and I'm like, oh, that looks really cool. Like, I'll pick it up because it looks like a game that I would enjoy. But it's I don't know, it's written weird, and I don't know if that's just because it was like written by non-native English speakers, and the English is a little janky sometimes. Um don't really know. Um the the story is just by my short premise, absolutely insane. Um it doesn't make a whole lot of sense at the best of times, but it is really fun if you like that like turn-based RPG stuff. And it does the really cool things with the turn-based RPG combat that I haven't seen in other games. It's just it's kind of neat, and I like just collecting all these weird little ghouly gremlins, and you just have like an army of like 12 of them, and it's just kind of sick. I don't know.
unknown:Cool.
SPEAKER_03:Valid. Okay, so and with that, I think we're gonna move on to our topic. Um, so I also have been playing, I also went back to play Hollow Knight, and uh, I'm happy I did. I did not finish Hollow Knight. I'm very slow at playing that game. Um, I think I put like maybe 12 hours into it or something like that. I was I got enough into it where like I unlocked the main goals, like the three things and things like that, and I made it to the bees. Um and I was surprised how much faster bosses were. Like I beat the Mantis Lords in like two tries um after going through. Like, even though it's been years since I've been through it, I just still I've retained more way more than I thought I would. Because a lot of the things that I really struggled with the first time around, um, I really got the hang of really quickly this time around. So um and I think it did I'm happy I did that because playing Silksong, I have a both like I feel like the controls are really natural because I was used to playing Hollow Knight this week, and also um it gives me a good point of contrast to like the differences as well. So and the biggest difference I think are a big difference is the vibe of how isolated Hollow Knight is and how unisolated uh Hornet is in Silk Song. And so um some other games that I think really um showcase isolation in a big way. Um I think survival crafting games often do this, like Subnautica and the Long Dark, I think are really prominent examples of like games that really benefit from the feeling of loneliness. Um and then I've noticed this trend where a lot of times smaller scope original games will give way to more like bigger scoped more characters in the sequel. Um and so an example of that is God of War, that had um kind of two main, like two main characters in the first game, um, and it was really just about their arc and their relationship. Um, and it felt uh very intimate. And then in Ragnarok that feeling of isolation was broken, and it was broken because there's a lot more characters with lines. Your enemies have personalities. Um, like if you look at like the the gods in um like even like the sub-enemies, Odin and everybody in Ragnarok versus like the elves and people who like might have a language, but you don't have access to what their plans are, and like even if they are sapient, they might as well be animalistic in how far like what they mean to you and things like that. And so I just think it's interesting how um like how different types of games I don't know make you feel isolated. So I was wondering if you guys had examples of games that uh you feel like the experience was um a lot about isolation.
SPEAKER_02:So the first thing I thought of when you mentioned this topic was, and Seth, you'll probably be able to back me up on this one, but the first thing I thought of, because you mentioned, you know, Hollow Knight feels more isolated, but then Silksong feels more, you know, populated. And the first thing I thought of was the Dark Souls games, of course, because that's where my brain goes almost all the time. And I thought to, my favorite of them is Bloodborne. Bloodborne is very isolated, like you talk to a few people, but like even in the hub world, you have your, you know, you have your doll who levels you up and occasionally an old man who scolds you versus Elden Ring, which is by comparison, extremely populated. Um, like your your hub area has like half a dozen people who will talk to you at any given time. I feel like there's a lot more complex um character quests going on in Elden Ring as well. But I feel and I like both games, I would say, equally, but I almost prefer Bloodborne because of the isolated feeling that it gives you. Like it kind of feels like you're alone on this journey to do whatever you're trying to do in Bloodborne, who knows at this point. And it's just like it it it the isolation I feel like really lends itself to the cosmic horror elements of Bloodborne. And I feel like if Bloodborne were as populated or had as many people or like a populated hub area as like Elden Ring, I don't think it would have worked as well because of the like Lovecraftian setting. So that was the first thing I thought of was Bloodborne and how I think isolationism really plays up its strengths and the story Yeah, I just don't. Think it would be the same if it were more like Elden Ring or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:See, like on that stuff. So yeah, you know, like I'm also thinking about the Souls games in this aspect. And because all of them kind of approach this in a bit of a different way. Um just sort of like mentally thinking through them. Like Dark Souls 1 is a game that sort of is I don't I don't know where it is. Dark Souls One's very much starts you with like, hey, there's not really anybody around, and you sort of discover people as time goes on. Um and they all die eventually, as as you do in the Dark Souls universe. Dark Souls III is, I think, definitely just a little more populated in general because it has like a hub area with a fire keeper and uh a lady who sells you stuff, and Andre who smiths your stuff, and you can just always go back there and talk to those people, and they essentially always have something to say. And a lot of your NPCs and like Dark Souls don't die off, and it's it definitely impacts the vibe of that game because with Dark Souls 1 not having like has a hub area, but not in the same way that Dark Souls 3 does, where you can just like teleport to the Dark Souls 3 hub area whenever you want. Uh you know, you kind of have to like build your party as time goes on. So Dark Souls 1 kind of becomes less isolating. Whereas, and I think this is the interesting thing about what Brett mentioned, is one thing I very distinctly remember from like my first Elden Ring playthrough is uh what's the name of the hub area in Elden Ring? I'm blanking. The round table hold.
SPEAKER_02:The yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um the round table hold starts off with a ton of people, and as the game progresses, there's there's fewer and fewer people in there until you actually get to like the very end of the game. Uh, and it's just you and Hugh and uh Rodriga. And Rodriga is like, I'm concerned Hugh is going insane. Uh, and Hugh is like, I am going insane, but you're gonna kill God. Uh, and that's a very funny thing for him to say. Um but like part of then I think that that vibe of Elden Ring is you get towards the end of the story, is realizing that like the sole duty of killing God is falling to you. Like all of these people who were on your journey have fallen off over time, and now it's it's just down to you. And like building that isolationism helps influence like that narrative beat in the story that I think you would have missed otherwise, if the game was like either fully isolating from the start, much sort of like bloodborne, or if it was you know, much more populated, like Dark Dark Souls 3. Um, Dark Souls 3 even plays into that with its endings, where like you have a couple different endings to choose from, but most of them are like NPC dependent. Um, I think like three of the four endings involve you having like talked to an NPC who is still at Fire Link Shrine and you can regularly interact with. So the isolationism is like an important part of that vibe.
SPEAKER_04:That kind of makes sense. I haven't played any of the Dark Souls games, but in literature and stories, the standard sort of hero's journey rests on the fact that at the end of the day, the hero has to face the bad guy alone. And there's always like little bits of help in the beginning, but then those supports have to fall away and the hero is strongest on his own and has to do it by himself. Um I think that video games rely on that frequently because my thinking is um they want the player to feel like they are the most important and that they are the ones who are creating impact on the world. So it's it's a lot easier to create that if you don't have a lot of other important people that can help them, that sort of thing. Um in the game Journey, though, you play um have you guys played Journey? I know you have Dempsey.
SPEAKER_02:I have nothing.
SPEAKER_04:It's the one where you're like I know of it, but Okay, so you're like a you're like a magical like little being that gets a magic cape that lets you fly, and you're in this desert, you're completely alone going through this story, and it's very it's like a completely non-verbal story, very symbolic, um, kind of abstracty. And as you're going through though, every once in a while you'll run into other characters like yourself. And what's really interesting about it was the first time that I played it, I thought that they were NPCs. And I was like, oh, this NPC is like showing me how to play. So it was at the very beginning, and they showed me how to like collect the different things and like chirping and all these different like mechanics. And I thought, oh, that's really cool. And I go on my merry way, and it wasn't until after I finished the game that I learned that those other quote unquote NPCs were actually players that had jumped into my game and were helping me and were showing me how to play just because they wanted to. And that contrast between being so isolated and having to figure everything out through exploration and then suddenly having that sort of moment of community was made so much sweeter because of that isolation. Especially once I realized, oh, that was a real person who just cared about me. Wow. But but I think it wouldn't have been nearly as impactful if you were just in a hub world where, like in an MMO where people are running around all the time, you know?
SPEAKER_02:What you just described reminds me of Death Stranding. And I think Dempsey could talk a lot more to that because you've played more Death Stranding than I have. But that reminds me of that where you're just like running around completely alone, and then all of a sudden there's these like structures that are built by other people, and it's just like, oh yeah, we are connected. Like that they are helping. It's it's kind of like a cool feeling to know that there are like other people somehow in your single-player game. I think I like that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. It's like you're still the main, I guess, actuator, the main, the main acting force. But when you are the main acting force and you're alone all the time, then you find somebody else and you're like, oh, this is cool. There's connection and it's more meaningful.
SPEAKER_03:I I an opposite version of like what Seth was talking about with the Elden Ring is in Baldur's Gate, where you bring all of your allies to you. So in Baldur's Gate, the more people that you help throughout the game, the more allies you get for the final fight. And that's something like and that's something that I love. Like I love that movie. I think it happens in Horizon as well, is another game that does that, where your NPCs come back and help you with the final fight, which I'm a big huge fan of that trope. Um I find it. I guess like when I think about the games that impact me emotionally the most, I do find isolating games to not necessarily be on that list, or like games that are about isolation to like be games that I consider very impactful as games. Um, not that they aren't good, but like um, so so Outer Wilds, for example, a lot of times is on lists where people were like games that make you feel alone or games that make you feel isolated, and then people will list Outer Wilds, which is wrong. That's the opposite point that that game, that's literally the opposite point that that game makes, is is that you actually build meaning through community and friends, and it's impossible to do so by yourself. Um, so I don't feel I don't feel like Outer Wilds is a is a game about isolation at all. But I do think like Hollow Knight um and Demon's Souls, so those are like I guess the Soulsy games that I've played, and Demon's Souls is a pretty isolating experience. You get that one girl with the bare feet, and that's about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, foot lady at the shrine who helps you, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and yeah, and then like you have some other friends that kind of do stuff with you, but they're not very active. Um and so but like um like I think like between like Hollow Knight and Silk Song, I'm already more invested in in Hornet's journey than I ever was in the the Knights journey. Like I'm I'm there. I'm like, she has these goals, she has these weird ticks, she's interested in these certain questions or whatever, and she knows that she's like she's very open to talking to people and open to asking questions. So, like, and like that's a big thing that you do as you go around, and she's like, hey, can you help me with this? And so she she's looking for assistance in in a lot of this game. And um like that for me like Holland, I think I think you're right. I think what Hollow Knight will do is get access to ideas like cosmic horror. Because I think cosmic horror is tied to isolation, and I think it's really hard to make something feel cosmically horror without the isolation, because I feel like it just feels like an adventure if you have other people. Like oxen free, or no, is that what it's called? No, is that what it's called? Yeah, oxen free. The one with the radio. Yeah, yeah. Radio. Like that that game has cosmic horror elements, but because you're like with a group of your friends trying to solve this mystery, I wouldn't say that it's like cosmically horror. It's more like a cosmically horror-flavored adventure. Because you're still like have people to rely on, and you know, and you're you're you're doing things for the betterment of other people and things like that. And so I don't know. I think like uh lonely game, I I know that there's people that really like isolation in games, like you were talking about how you liked Bloodborne a little bit more because that kind of the soulness of the quest connected with you. But I don't know, like um, it's a big reason why I will fall off survival crafting games. Like I've never rolled credits on Subnautica or The Long Dark, because eventually I just felt so isolated that once I felt like the puzzle was the puzzle of survival wasn't interesting anymore, there there wasn't that emotional response to keep me going. Whereas I do feel like if you have stronger characters, even after the puzzle in combat gets uninteresting, I'll still stay around just because I like the characters. I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does. And something that I thought of while you were talking about that was um you kind of reminded me of so you were talking about how um Hornet has her own like interactions and will ask questions and do things, whereas the knight or whatever you want to call them from Hollow Knight it doesn't speak ever. Um and so it reminded me of the trope, or I guess not trope, but like mechanic where um you'll have a non-talking main character specifically so you can insert yourself into the story. So I got I started got I got thinking of like Legend of Zelda um with Link, where Link doesn't typically talk because they want you to be the hero. They want you to be able to put yourself in their shoes so that you feel like you're more a part of the game. So do you feel like in those instances, I guess, do you feel like you're less a part of the game just because the main like the character isn't as like animated or themselves or yes.
SPEAKER_03:So I I would say that there has to be some other element. So like I'm not a Zelda person, I've only played Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom. And I fell in love with Breath of the Wild, I could care less about Link and his journey. But the world itself, and my experience as a player going through the world, I guess that's but that's more of like an aesthetic, like an aesthetic consideration and like a like a vaguer, I guess, emotional connection. Whereas um like other games, like I yeah, I I couldn't care less. I don't know if I'm supposed to care about Link, though, because maybe what you're saying is that I'm not really supposed to care about Link. The point is that I am having the adventure.
SPEAKER_02:Like Link is just the point of the point is that you are LinkedIn. Is largely, largely, I think, the point. Um, especially of the earlier games.
SPEAKER_01:But is Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are those isolating games?
SPEAKER_02:I was thinking about that, and I I think that they're isolated just because of how they're built, and it's my biggest gripe of the game how they're these huge, crazy open games, and there is nothing inside those games. Like there's there's nothing in 99% of those games. It's just open nothing where you're just maybe fighting a mob, maybe running. You're pretty much just riding your horse around nothing from objective to objective. And that feels very isolationist to me.
SPEAKER_03:That's such a vibe, though. I agree. It is most of that, but also I would just positive. You're you're just riding your horse around a field for like 99% of the game. Thumbs up. That's a good that's a good idea.
SPEAKER_02:Meanwhile, I'm like, this is boring. What am I doing?
SPEAKER_01:Uh one other thing I wanted to talk about that I've that I've just been thinking about here is because I've now played just like a monstrous amount of hours of old school RuneScape. Um, and the idea of an MMO is like very anti-isolationist, right? Like it's literally a game designed to be in like the least amount of isolation as possible. But a lot of the time that I was playing RuneScape, however, I was playing it like not part of like an in-game clan, so a sort of like in-game community. And I would say it was like it was a weirdly isolating experience. Um sort of just because like there's a whole world to explore, and like I really enjoy doing quests and stuff. Um, but it's a lot harder to like celebrate my own achievements when I know that nobody else cares. Um and which like, you know, I could come on here and like talk to you guys when we, you know, record about like old school runescape and stuff, but like you guys only uh care as far as like, you know, I'm talking about it. But to actually now that like I'm I just one day was like, okay, I'm gonna go to the like the clan recruitment area and just like drop in a clan. So the fact that I'm now part of an in-game clan has like really changed the experience of the game for me, even in like a really simple way of like I I get a rare drop, and somebody in like my clan chat is like, hey, congrats. And that like changes the vibe of the game experience so much for me because I'm like, oh, there's like other people around here that are now sort of like interacting with me directly and like other real people, and it's not just like characters in the game world. Um, because I I probably played the first 600 hours of this game that I played, like just me, just like running quests, doing things in the game. Um so yeah, it it's a very like odd, different experience now for a game that's literally like anti-isolationist, and nothing changed other than like there's now a little box in the bottom left of my screen, and I get to see some other players like talk about stuff in the game. It was a very odd experience. I don't I don't really know how to think about it.
SPEAKER_04:I think that I I what what you're saying is like that community or that acknowledgement builds meaning for it. So it's like if a rare drop if a rare fine drops in the woods and there's nobody there to hear it, did it really matter?
SPEAKER_01:No, but like actually, right? Like Yeah. No.
SPEAKER_04:But I was thinking about so a lot of games are lonely, but the character still undergoes growth throughout. So like you play a game like um What Remains of Edith Finch, where you are alone going through this narrative. And even though you're lonely, there is meaning because you're making connections throughout to the events of the story versus a game like The Long Dark, which I've put an obscene amount of hours into that I eventually got bored with because there is there is no growth unless you tack on your own narratives, which I've been known to do, and be like, Yes, this is my homestead, and I'm going to decorate it, and I'm going to make this beautiful fire pit and all these things. But then I'm ascribing meaning to it because the character doesn't actually undergo any kind of growth or change. Sure. So I think the loneliness can serve it can serve as a function of the story, or it can serve as like you were saying with Link as just a vessel for the player to have whatever experience they're trying to give you.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. I think a a very lonely game is blueprints. Yeah. So blueprints feels distinctively lonely to be in a house that big all by yourself. Like that feels that feels like a very lonely experience. And I think I would have stuck with blueprints more if my character was talking to pixels. Like if my character, not like multiplayer or anything, but if my character was on an adventure with a companion or something like that, I think I would have stuck with I think I would have had a lot more patience for that game. Because I guess when I think about the act of building meaning, and we've talked about this on the podcast before, my own actions don't count as meaningful, right? Like they they have to like my my internal, the the way I develop internally doesn't count as something. There has to be something externalized, and having a witness for that externalization is what gives a meaning. And so I think I I bring that philosophical baggage into video games where like something like uh blueprints, like because even in game there's no one to share that experience with, at least for like the 30 hours that I played, it does feel like if unless I really, really love the puzzles, there's not much keeping me there. Whereas um, you know, I mean, there's a lot of other games where I, you know, I'm not in love with the mechanics so much, but I want to help the characters build meaning with through their relationships with each other. But yeah, blue, blueprints is definitely a game that I feel like is an extremely isolating experience.
SPEAKER_02:This is a game that I didn't even think of when thinking about this is Blueprints, but like as soon as you said Blueprints, I was like, oh yeah, I felt like terrifyingly alone when I was playing that game. And to the point where I'm walking around and I'm at like I'm like 40 hours into this game, and I'm still expecting to turn a corner and get like jump scared by a monster. Because I'm like, this world is so empty, there has to be something in this game. There has to be something other than me here in this stupid house. Um, that's such a good example of being yeah, isolated to the extreme in a video game.
SPEAKER_01:I just I wanted to make a quick mention for like one of our favorite games of all time in the beginner's guide. Um, which I'm gonna do. Yeah, it's a very like odd game because for a game that like doesn't have like any other NPCs in it, it's also like not an isolating game because you're talking to somebody the whole time, or somebody's talking to you the whole time. Same with like the Stanley parable, right? Like there's nobody else in the game, but it doesn't feel lonely because I I think it's like fundament they're both fundamentally games about like people or a person. Sure. Um and so I guess just like literally the the person experience is what helps that game feel not isolating, despite the fact that there is literally no people.
SPEAKER_03:I was just gonna say, uh getting over it with Benafati also has the same thing, where even though it's a very frustrating game and you're the only guy there, because he's spilling his nonsense at you the whole time, it doesn't feel that lonely.
SPEAKER_04:Dempsey, I was gonna ask with Senua's sacrifice with Hellblade, um, that is a pretty lonely game. How do you feel in that game?
SPEAKER_03:I do not feel like it's lonely at all. There's so many voices. There's too many people to keep you company. I have so many voices. You wish it was lonely. Yeah, and I think Senua does not have an isolating experience. Like for her, she's going to avenge or to connect with. I'm not actually completely sure about the short story, but she is this person that she loves. And she's trying to make sense of this tragedy that has to do with this person that she loves who's talking to her through her own memories and through some spiritual connection or something like that. And so I think um she I think it's more terrifying than it is lonely, but like she's I don't think she's going there for like some internal reason. I think for her, it's very externalized and relationship dependent on what she is doing. So it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily feel lonely for me.
SPEAKER_04:It's creepy though, when you're alone and you're hearing the whispers and stuff. Like if there were a physical person there with you, that would be so much more grounding. Even though you know that the even if you're still experiencing those sounds, the that soundscape and that phenomenon, if you were traveling with a person, it would be so much more grounding to be like, okay, I know that I am here and this person is here, and the things that I'm experiencing are not here. But when you're by yourself, that's it.
SPEAKER_03:It seems like the sequel might have a lot more um actual people. I again I'm not that far in it. Do you think, hold on, this is just a Hellblade question. Do you think those things are actually happening? Or do you think because in my interpretation of this game so far, it's that's how she's making sense of the world, but it's not a supernatural game. Like Hollow Knight has supernatural elements, right? Like in the world of Hollow Knight, the supernatural exists. Right in Sunny in Hellblade, I don't think the supernatural exists. I think it's natural things, it's like these horrific historical events that she is trying to make sense of. But I don't think there's any supernatural elements.
SPEAKER_04:No, I think it's just the manifestation of her mental illness and dealing with life and the life that she's in, you know? Which would be really traumatizing for anybody. But then you add on, you know, a health condition like that and it's really wild.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So yeah, that that's interesting because it it physically would be isolating because she is physically there alone. But she doesn't feel like that.
SPEAKER_02:But again, I think it's one of those games where because there's like a narration of sorts, like she kind of has this constant, like you know, she's kind of constantly talking to herself in different ways, you know, she's kind of narrating the game as you go. Um, same with like Stanley Parable or the beginner's guide, or even Portal. Portal, you're entirely alone, but like you have GLaDOS who's constantly chirping in the background. And even though GLaDOS isn't physically present, even though you know the narrator in these games aren't physically present, it makes the game feel so much less lonely. Just because there's someone talking to you, someone's acknowledging your existence within the game in some way, shape, or form. And that in itself makes it not feel like it's isolated, even though you're totally alone.
SPEAKER_03:That's that's so interesting. There's so many, I think there's so many games that take away the loneliness through only narration. I think if Thomas Was Alone, which is a game that would be utter nonsense without the narration. Oh, 100%. Like, like, yeah, that's a game that only like the the narration only gives me. I think there's also games that feel lonely, even though there's a lot of people, but they're all enemies. Like Inside. Um Inside is a game that feels very lonely, even though there's a bunch of other people, it's just that they all wish to harm you, and so it feels isolating. But I I feel like inside feels like a very lonely experience.
SPEAKER_04:Or even like um little nightmares, because you're so small and everything is so big and wants to eat you that you feel very much you against the world.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, you have nothing to relate to, nothing to to connect with.
SPEAKER_04:Nothing's on your side.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, these giant monsters that are like, you know, 20 times your size, you can't build a a connection with them.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say, how about Minecraft? I mean, it's sort of like the traditional, like literally you're alone in the world. But I don't know. Have I just played like I don't know if Minecraft feels that isolating to me, but I don't know if that's a I've played this game for many, many years, so now it's just like comfortable in its isolation. Like, does Minecraft feel isolating to you guys?
SPEAKER_02:I think it does too.
SPEAKER_04:I've always played it with people.
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. When I'm playing solo, it scratches the itch of like move out to the woods and don't talk to anyone, go off the grid, just like make soap and you know, like not I don't know, just it scratches that itch for me where it's just like okay, get away from society, be your own person, do whatever you want to do, herd sheep, make a weird killing chamber for chickens. Like, I don't know, it's just I you know, it's it scratches a certain niche, but to me it's very isolating.
SPEAKER_01:Isolating. Like for me it's like isolation is different than the sort of like the the I guess like an intentional isolation that's outside of your control is different than like the self-isolation of something like Minecraft.
SPEAKER_04:Isolation versus solitude.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's like Minecraft feels very solitary to me, but it doesn't feel very isolating.
SPEAKER_03:Hmm.
SPEAKER_01:Like there is a whole open world to explore.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think so. This is interesting because I would say that okay, so I think isolation is implying that you want a connection. So, like, because Subnautica and the Long Dark are also survival crafting games, and they feel very isolating, but they are you are in desire of rescue the whole time. Like, you don't go out to the woods to make uh to make a life for yourself, you are in a plane crash, starving to death or being eaten by like you know, not having literally no dry land. So I think I think it's the I think there is a sense of like what if your character cannot get what they want to get, if it's like a loneliness, I guess, like a I I would like to be rescued, I would like to connect to people, I would like for someone else to be here, but there is no one here. Versus I do feel like in Minecraft, I think you're meant to feel at peace. Yeah, like the music is very peaceful, you have a lot of agency over the land, um, everything is predictable, I think, in a way that in the long dark and subnautica, like Minecraft, after like a couple days, you can start even in survival mode, you can kind of build yourself into like a pretty safe pattern. Whereas like in the long dark, it's constantly terrifying. And so I I do think that in Minecraft, like there is a sense of stability that you're meant to reach in a way that maybe other survival games there's not that sense of stability that you reach.
SPEAKER_04:I feel like solitude is a choice and isolation is something that is thrust upon you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Do you feel like do you feel like the hollow knight wants to connect with people? Do you feel like the hollow knight is is lonely, or do you feel like he's just solitary? He is like killing.
SPEAKER_04:I think that it is isolating though, because as the player, you don't really know what's going on, and you want to understand, and everything is against you, versus when you play something like Minecraft, you have more agency and you have more um stability in the world. You're you're pretty like you're said, like you said, you're able to kind of create safety for yourself and have that um I don't really know, but like if you wanted to do like if you wanted to do something different, you could. Whereas in Hollow Knight, there is no choice besides the isolation if you want to progress.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. And I think I think within like the cosmic horror as well, I think part of what makes cosmic horror is that you feel like there's nothing in between you and like the horrific unknown. And I think I think that unknown would be less horrific if there was something in between you and the unknown. And I think on Hollow Knight, that's there's like that feeling of horrificness.
SPEAKER_04:Every time you run into anybody that you can talk to, you're like, oh good, cool. Let me talk to where's the map guy? I can hear him humming. Fantastic. I'm so relieved that I found the map guy because I'm alone in the dark and I need something to hold on to, which is a map to tell me where I am.
SPEAKER_02:I think that's a really interesting point that, like, and I think that's why a lot of cosmic horror games fail in the narrative, is that they try to build too much of a story around things and they try to have too many different characters in it when the true essence of cosmic horror is being isolated and you're alone from everything, no one understands what you're going through because you've just experienced inexplicable horror that you cannot possibly comprehend, and so now you're the only one who can face it. Um, whereas like the I will play so many cosmic horror games, like any Lovecraftian game I'll play when they come out, and most of them are so terrible because they try to build this like crazy narrative where it's like they introduce too much and it just like loses all of the Cosmic horror element. And I think that's I I I I think I only just realized it's because it's not as isolated as I think it should be. Whereas games like Hollow Knight or Bloodborne really succeed in those cosmic horror hell hor the cosmic horror elements because you are strictly alone. There's nothing else that really to interact with except for a couple NPCs who will mostly just threaten you and tell you to go away.
SPEAKER_01:It's also funny too, because like if you go read Lovecraft, like that's uh you've hit the mark on exactly like why the Lovecraft stories are good. Like a guy wanders into a town on a bus and like doesn't know anybody and slowly realizes that like there's merfolk people living in town who drag him out of the sea. Um or or you know, sometimes it's about how like Lovecraft doesn't understand how air conditioning works, but like that's neither here nor there. But but right, like it's a but and that's a honest to God example. Go read that story, it's kind of funny. Um but like it's a it's still even a point about like I'm going through something that nobody else understands, even if it is something like simple and mundane, and like that's a scary experience. Um that's isolating because like this is something very mundane that everybody else understands, but I do not.
SPEAKER_04:Which makes you on the outside.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Which is funny.
SPEAKER_04:Somebody should write like a uh Lovecraftian horror story about like sitting in math class, but algebra, and I don't I don't need to write a story about it. I live for that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Gen Z Lovecraft, where like you're sitting in algebra class and everybody else has their hand up and you don't because you don't know what's going on.
SPEAKER_03:They ask you to public speak. I kind of, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The teacher calls on you.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so um, okay, so I think we're we're about at time. So we're each gonna go and say kind of our final thoughts, um uh and then and then we'll end it. So I think um one of the things I have learned here is that I think for me, like Hollow Knight is kind of an anomaly for a game that I loved and finished and will go back to, even though it is such an isolated experience. I think uh I think that's very special that it feels because like I do feel connected to the world. And I think it is through the sheer excellence of the aesthetic beauty and kind of the complicated nature. Like, I think that it's such a higher bar for me to feel connected to the world in isolation. And so that's kind of my big takeaway that like a lot of other games, the meaning I find, like Claire Obscura, Baldur's Gate, Outer Wilds, Celeste, Florence, kind of my typical games that I go to to talk about why video games are good are all about connection. And so Hollow Knight, not really having that and still being a really important game to me, I think makes it very special. So that's kind of what this conversation has uh has made me think about. What about you, Katie? What's your closing closing thought?
SPEAKER_04:I hate the closing thoughts. I always feel so put on the spot. Um I think that it was really interesting uh to come to the finally to come to a definition between isolation and solitude, and that solitude is something that we would often choose for ourselves versus isolation, which is um pushed upon us. And so I think it's interesting where games uh choose the isolation as a conflict to work through uh makes it more interesting versus one like the long dark where it's just the circumstance and there's no growth through that. Yeah. I don't know if that's a coherent thought, but sure.
SPEAKER_03:No, and I think this yeah, and I think the story mode tries to fix that, right? Like the story mode tries to fix it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the story mode, but they I mean, Jesus, they've uh talk about Silksong taking 18 years. This one's but we've been waiting since like 2015 or something for the final chapter. I'm never gonna know how it ends. It's fine.
SPEAKER_03:Seth, what's your closing closing thoughts?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I think I like isolationist games, which is not something that I thought I would say, like going into this. But also because like I talk so much about like the mechanical nature of the games that I enjoy. But like if a game has a narrative, I think I tend to gravitate towards like those isolationist games. I don't know if it's just vibes or but it I guess it's also sort of to say like a lot of my favorite games of all time have also maybe been solitary instead of isolationist. Just like the experience.
SPEAKER_03:Well I think roguelikes. Yeah. I think roguelikes are often very isolationist because you're the only thing that is consistent. Like the world around you changes with the thing.
SPEAKER_01:See, I don't know about that. Because I was thinking about like Slay the Spire, where I don't it's hard for me to identify as like Slay the Spire as a very like isolationist game. Because you are like constantly interacting, um, although and like there's constantly like events and things happening. I just I guess I don't think about it like that. Like I don't think it's a very like isolating experience to climb the spire. The cards are our friends. I think about nuclear throne, which is a game that I think only I've played, but it's getting an update. Um where like that's a game about at the at the start of each of your runs, you're around a campsite with each of the other mutants, and then uh you have to leave the campsite to go find the nuclear throne. Um and is awesome, and that's isolating, sort of, like that's kind of one of the themes of that game. I don't know. I like I don't know how I really come out of this. I think I still have too much to think about, I gotta sleep on it.
SPEAKER_04:Alright, Brett.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think that I realize that my favorite games are very isolationist, um, like almost all of them. Like my favorite game, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic, it's like you start off on a big battleship, and then you're one of two people who survives it being blown up, and then all of a sudden you're on a planet where like there's a Sith occupation and you have to like lay low, you have to be just by yourself, like for like the entire first planet. And then the rest of the game is like, oh no, lay low because like you have to like infiltrate, you have to like kind of like you're on this mission to go like five, you know, retrace Revan's footsteps or stop Malik, whatever, but like you can't be caught doing it. So you like gather this little crew, and even though you have a crew of I think you end up with nine different teammates um that you can cycle through that are on like your ship, it does feel like you're very alone in the universe because you're the only one who knows what you're doing and what's at stake. And the same for the second one where you're like an exile, you're a you're an exile from the Jedi, and so there's like Jedi and Sith all around you, but you can't be one of them because you I don't know, you were I don't know. It just I I realize that all my favorite games are very isolationist, and I think that's okay because I don't know, somehow the I I maybe it is solitude more, but it's like it's almost comforting because I also like those games where you can like insert yourself as the protagonist because you're I don't know. I don't know how to form a coherent thought around that, but I am maybe just a very lonely person, and I just really like lonely single-player games. Uh I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to I don't know how to deal with that. Maybe that's something I need to talk to my therapist, my my my therapist about. I don't know. Awesome.
SPEAKER_04:Wait, we could all use a little therapy, that's okay.
SPEAKER_02:But the difference between isolation, uh isolation and s and solitude, that was like actually genuinely eye-opening, and I think it's something that I think I genuinely learned something through this conversation that there is a difference, and maybe I need to start thinking of certain things as solitude and not isolation, because maybe solitude has a more positive connotation than isolation. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely awesome. Okay, well, that was a podcast. Thank you so much for listening. This has been Overthinking Games, a podcast about what video games can teach us. Um, if you would like to send us your thoughts about loneliness, isolation, solitude, or silksong or anything really, um, you can find our email in the show notes. And you can find our cool videos on TikTok. And I think, are we on YouTube now, Brett?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, we'll get there, probably, I think. I haven't really investigated.
SPEAKER_04:And we'll get there soon, but you can find us in all the usual places. And thanks for being here. We'll catch you next time. Bye.
SPEAKER_03:See ya. Bye.