Overthinking Games
Overthinking Games is a podcast about what video games can teach us. We look at video games through an educational and critical lens.
Overthinking Games
Ep 69: Sex and Relationships
A very horny episode
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I went to the worst tasting menu I've ever been to in my life. Oh. And this is the thing. So imagine you're hungry, right? And you go and you and you get a five-course tasting menu. So nothing too extreme, right? Just five courses. Um the first course is an appetizer, right? It's muscles. It's curry muscles, which first of all, I don't think I think curry is a little heavy for muscles. You want something a little bit lighter for shellfish, but whatever, right? And so so I ate the curry muscles, and I was like, okay, it's a little, it's a little heavier than I would have liked it to be, but but okay. And then you get a salad, which it was like not that much different than a house salad, which seems kind of embarrassing to put on a tasting menu. But again, I went with it. It seems like there's no work being done, it's just raw lettuce. But it that's fine, right? And then you get to course three, which should be your main course, right? And for course three of this five-course tasting menu, we get uh buffalo steak um and some really good potato and mushrooms. Um, and so that was that was all fantastic. It was some of the strangest textures I've ever had in my life. I can't remember everything that was there for course four. You'd think we'd go something maybe a little bit fruity or desserty, but no, course four was pork chops, okay? Right? That's what it was. So you ate a steak and then you ate pork chops, and then the fifth course, right, was duck breasts. What do you feel like you're missing in this five course?
SPEAKER_01:So much protein that's vegetables.
SPEAKER_03:There was nothing, there is no dessert. There was no desserts in this five-course meal. And then the waiter had the gall to ask me, do you guys are you guys thinking about dessert? After I ordered a five-course tasting menu. And I'm like, was the dessert not included in this? Anyways, I was I was very kind to the waiter. I was also uh a little bit kind of extraordinarily high because I thought that it would make the food taste better. And it did for the first like three courses. I think the food was very, very good. And then I got very emotional because there was no dessert. Welcome to Overthinking Games, a podcast about what we should teach us. Uh today is a very special episode. Um, today's episode 69, where we're gonna talk about sex and love and relationships. Pew-pew. Um, I'm very excited to I've played so many porn games in preparation for this episode. Um and I would like to talk about at least some of them today. Um, anyways, so that's our topic. But before we get to our topic, oh, everybody needs to introduce themselves. Uh Brett, introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Hi, my name's Brett. Um, I have not played any porn games to prepare for this, um, but uh I I hope I'm prepared. Seth, who are you? Seth.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I'm also here. I much like everybody else here, have not done what Dempsey has done.
SPEAKER_03:I've you both played Baldur's Gate 3, which is pretty pornographic. Anyways.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Well, well, that's gonna be my thesis, basically, is uh anyways.
SPEAKER_03:So um, but before we get into uh our topic of the week, very special week, um, we're gonna talk about what we've been playing this week. I have been playing more silksong. I have not made much progress. Um, I had a friend over this week um that took a lot of my time and which was very good. And I had a big work project um over the weekend than most of last week. So I've not played that much more silksong. I have realized that a lot of the bosses are just multiple guys, and that's kind of annoying. Um, I will see if I get used to that, if it feels ends up feeling good, but I just got the claw ability where you can stick to the walls, and so I'm re-exploring a lot of the um act one place. And there are several bosses where it's not that interesting or difficult of a boss, it's just trying to maneuver around multiple enemies at the same time. And then my friend that stayed with me played the first half of Act One for Claire Obscure Expedition 33. Uh, and it was really interesting and lovely to see someone I care about a lot play that game and for them to really like it. Um, the person that played it seemed to really enjoy it and wants to play the rest of it, um, and was really invested and loved the combat, and so that was a really and they saw it it was interesting seeing that game through fresh eyes. I just played it recently, but like still seeing someone who she didn't know anything about it. There was no um like she doesn't know like the tr like the tr gaming awards talk or the fact that it's like a lot of people's favorite game. There was like no background knowledge at all. And so to see someone just kind of experience it without expectations was really refreshing and cool to see. So um, those are the two games that I've been playing, uh, or watching other people play. Brett, what have you been playing?
SPEAKER_01:Oh boy. Um I have oh, I feel like we should probably mention um uh it's probably very evident, but Katie is unfortunately not here for the Katie's dead. Uh we would love to have a female opinion on sex, um, but unfortunately we're not gonna get that. But what I've been playing, I've also been playing more silksong. I'm well into act two, and I think my opinions the last time we talked about are relatively the same. I don't, yeah, I I I although I will say, okay, I think I said last time that there weren't very many interesting bosses so far, and that a lot of the bosses were replaced by just mob fights. And I have actually run into what might be my favorite boss fight in all of like including Hollow Knight as well, which is I don't even want to say what it is. It's it's it's just a very well, I guess it's the it's the just say the name of the Cogwork Dancers. The Cogwork Dancers, I think they're called. I that was a great fight. They are so cool, and it's a fight that I got on like my third or fourth try. Like it wasn't too hard. Um, that's also because it's anyways, I'm not gonna talk too much about it. It was a really cool boss fight, and it kind of changed my opinion on the game and like bosses in general, and I'm kind of okay with the mob fights at this point, because if those are kind of the interludes in between really, really interesting boss fights, I will accept them. I will say, is it called the Bile Water? I think is what I just got to, or Bile Town.
SPEAKER_02:I have not explored that area yet, but it's my last area to explore, I think.
SPEAKER_01:It is the worst thing I have seen in the Hollow Knight game. It is it sucks so bad, I don't like it. I think it's bad, and I think the developers should feel bad for making it. It's basically just Blight Town, and it makes me feel bad.
SPEAKER_02:Poison Swamp!
SPEAKER_01:Let's go! Yeah, woo! It really sucks the life out of me. Um, other than that, I mean that's been pretty much all I've been playing because I just got a 3D printer and I have a party coming up that's crow themed, and I don't know what that means, but I've decided to make uh so I've been trying to learn 3D modeling as well, and I made a pauldron that has like a crow skull on it, and I printed that, I just primed it, and I'm getting ready to paint it. So unfortunately, that my my costume for this party has absorbed way too much of my time, so I feel like I haven't played as much Silksong or anything else as I might have liked to, um, because I'm busy uh modeling crows. So that's that's been me. What what about you, Seth?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean I've just been on a you know, been on the Silksong grind. Was I playing Borderlands 4 last episode?
SPEAKER_01:No. I think you Yeah, I think that was between.
SPEAKER_02:Borderlands 4 is out. Uh Borderlands 4 is a good game. Uh it's Did either of you guys play Borderlands 2, Borderlands 3?
SPEAKER_01:I've played all of them, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:I've never I've never played a Borderlands 4.
SPEAKER_01:I'm a big fan of Borderlands 2, and I can kind of give or take the other two, if I'm being honest.
SPEAKER_02:That's yeah, no, I think that's where most people are at. Uh yeah, Borderlands 4 plays really, really well. I mean, I think one of the main pieces of commentary about Borderlands 3 was that like gunplay good, story bad. And so far, 4 is like gunplay good, story good. Uh it's not like amazing, but uh like I'm enjoying it. Uh Open World really did Borderlands very well. Uh it's a lot of fun just to like sort of like Elden Ring style. You're just like, I'm just gonna go like wander around this part of the map and like see what I could find and see if I can find these echo logs or uh these like random caches of weapons or like whatever else. Uh and it's just fun to like fill up the map. And I've put like a good chunk of time into it. I'm probably closing in on like 20 hours, and I've really only explored like a third or less of the map, maybe only about like a quarter of the map. So there's definitely a lot of just like run around, go figure some stuff out. Um, I'm also already like fairly good leveled. Like I've almost hit my capstone for my skill tree already. But I think um the main playthrough is intended to go up to level 50, because they got rid of true vault hunter mode, which is like the new game plus. But new game plus plus is still around, just for giggles, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Um wait, so there's no new game plus, but there's a new game plus plus?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so you can still do ultimate vault hunter mode, but there's no true vault hunter mode. Wild. But the the whole world scales with you. So it it it's sort of like base game is is true.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, fair enough.
SPEAKER_02:Um one thing I I have noticed which was a little disappointing, is that uh all quest rewards are randomized. There's no like blue text, there's no like blue guns with like red unique texts. Um, which is a little sad because they added in a mission replay system. So like you don't have like you could actually just like rerun certain missions if you want, except now there's no point because they don't have mission uniques. Um don't really understand why they would have done that. Uh boss re farming is a lot of fun. They added in like a really easy system that you can just like activate a machine in front of a boss encounter and it'll just like respawn the fight so you don't have to like save quit and then like run back to the boss fight from the nearest respawn. You like I've I literally fought a boss where I would drop into the arena, fight it, the room immediately after had a red chest weapon drop, and then it had a thing you could grapple onto that would just teleport you back in front of the boss fight, hit the machine to respawn the boss, get in there again. 10, 15 second loop made farming actually like a ton of fun. Uh I've gotten a lot of random legendaries, most of which are like eh. Um, but there have been some like really powerful ones. Again, gunplay good, story, pretty good. I'm excited to play more of it, but also like I have silksong to play, so you know it's a little bit back and forth. But I've always been like swapping off between the two of them.
SPEAKER_01:Um the only thing that I've seen from usually I get spoiled on games pretty quickly from Reddit or like little things. That's fair. I haven't seen much on Borderlands 4, but the only thing I've seen is that apparently there's Shrek in the game. I don't know if you've encountered that yet.
SPEAKER_02:I was not aware of that, but I guess I'll have to.
SPEAKER_01:Or at least a at least a reference. I didn't really see much about it, but I'm like, oh, that sounds fun. That sounds on par.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, Shrek is a pretty like on par Borderlands reference, I guess. No, yeah, I haven't seen anything about that, but you know, it's Borderlands, I'm not surprised. Fair. Um, I've been playing a little bit of Hearthstone just because I think I mentioned this last week as well. Maybe. But I've just been like solo Hearthstone is fun. It's got like a roguelite deck builder single player game mode that you could mess around with. Uh it's not very sensible unless if you've played a lot of Hearthstone and therefore kind of like know what the cards do already. But I have played a lot of Hearthstone, so yeah. I think that's about it. I don't think I've been doing much.
SPEAKER_01:So I mean, so far you've been doing more than the rest of us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I guess. Yeah, I said my friend played Expedition 33. Sure. Okay. So I wanna I wanna talking about like romance and sexuality in video games, I think it's interesting because sex has always been a part of narratives. And so answering what does sex do for video games, I think there are some answers that just mirror like what it does for literature and cinema and kind of any other narrative art form. And there I think there are some answers which are specific to the interactivity of video games. So I think that's one of the things I want us to think about as we're talking, which a lot of subjects are like this, but I think like there's like a general like how this idea is used in you know art in general, and then specifically to video games. So um I I also want to keep in mind that there is a spectrum for what I am considering sexuality in this conversation. So I'll take it like I think Stardew Valley, um, even though it has no explicit sexuality, there are still romantic relationships and like implied sexuality in that game. I think the mayor has an affair. Um you you you build up like romance with characters, you can get married. Um, and so I think that's you like have a kid. Oh, I don't know if you can have a kid in Stardew Valley. If if you can, then yeah, that's obviously thinking about a different game. I I have not gotten that far. Um and then like on the complete other side of the spectrum, there's like Baldur's Gate 3, which is just like straight up uh very explicit sex with like realistic looking humans on screen. And so like it's like that's kind of important for me to talk about that. When we talk about why stories have sex or sexuality and romance, it's there's a whole spectrum from like Florence, which is like a very wholesome, gentle version of sexuality, which is still a very sexual game, to like something like one of the porn games I've played, Honey Pop, which is uh, you know, very like kind of a horrific, horrible version of that, but it's still instilled in sexuality. And so I wanted to talk about what people were getting out of this, because that's something I'm fascinated with. And I think one of the first things I wanted to talk about, I have a list of a couple things I think people are getting out of why we include sex in video games. And I think um, so I played a couple, I played a couple porn games, and I think one of the things that hit me the most was there's an element of spectacle that sex adds in the same way that like the finishers in Mortal Kombat, right, use violence in order to create spectacle. And you're pulling out someone's, and like there's like a visceral sensory reaction when you see that on screen, right? Or like um, like what's that realistic war simulator where it's not like Call of Duty, but you just like the screen goes black when you get hit, whatever. Um, I think it's like hell let loose or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, there yeah, I mean that's like a I think that's like a World War II one yeah I was thinking of uh I was thinking of uh what was like is it ready or not? That's like the body cam game, or is that that's what I was thinking of.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's a good example too. And so those games use like realism in order to like make you sensorily feel something. Because obviously with the body cam, we're used to seeing that in really traumatic, horrific situations. And then I think in like Hell Let Loose or whatever it's called, there's like a like something really realistic about the quietness of someone dying without any spectacle. Like that in and of itself is a sensory thing. And so what I think about video games that use uh sex as spectacle, I think about The Witcher 3. Um, I think about the old God of War games, um, Cyberpunk to an extent. Um, and and then on the extreme side, games like Honey Pop, which is just a match, and apparently a lot of sex games are like this, but just like match three games with like a seemingly unrelated naked female body on the side, which I think is like the most cartoonish version of that. But I I want to talk about that a little bit more. But so what are some games that you feel like use use sexuality as a as a form of spectacle of like sensory uh of like a sensory input rather than like primarily narrative?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think that the uh you mentioned the Witcher and God of War, like the old God of War specifically. And the old God of War is like, I mean, this the I think the first game opens up to Kratos on a boat in bed with a like three naked women. Um so that's like a huge one. But I think like the obvious one, and like this kind of goes for a lot of games, is pretty much any of the Grand Theft Auto games where you can just like any game really where you can go and just like indulge in prostitution, that serves nothing to the plot. Like you do not have to do that ever, and there's really no reason for it to be in the game other than prostitutes exist, so therefore I should be able to go hire one. Um because it's just a game, like especially GTA, it's just kind of it's everything in the world just amped up to a hundred, and it's just like, you know, it's it's it's the sandbox. I can do whatever I want. So they tend to use sex as a spectacle very much in that way. It just like appeals to someone's, I don't know, fantasy of shooting up a store and then going and having sex. I don't really know what it serves. To me personally, I don't get it, but like it's the it's there, and I think that's a good example of spectacle uh in that sense.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I agree. What about you, Seth?
SPEAKER_02:What was your original question?
SPEAKER_03:We're talking about games that use sex as spectacles. I would make I would say Hades does. Okay. I think Hades has their characters very hot because it that's uh it's a it's a more as a spectacle. I think all the characters in Hades are hot.
SPEAKER_02:I I I to me the the the sort of funny thing about this conversation topic is it is sort of like you asking us, like I'm imagining that somebody who has like an extreme niche interest in like trains and is like you guys also like trains, right? Do you want to tell me about your favorite train? And I'm like, man, they're all just trains to me.
SPEAKER_03:Um Well, because I think I think like when you compare like in Detroit Become Human, right? Yeah. I I think I don't think that's uh I don't think that was like for a spectacle when you go into the sex club and and whatever. I think that was for the second reason I think that sex is in video games, and that's to convince audiences that video games are for grown-ups. And I think in Detroit Become Human, it was more of like a hard noir kind of like uh David Fincher version of sexuality. That's like it's there to uh kind of mature, make it a mature thing for the audience. Um, especially because the the rest of that game was so serious and like quote unquote like for adults and things like that. So I think that's the second reason that there is sex in video games, is to convince the world that video games are for adults. And I think to some extent, Cyberpunk 20, whatever, whatever, what is that game called? 2023. 2077. That's not the what's the Blade Runner one? 2043. Gotcha. Anyways, uh so I think part of it was to set itself apart and like this is like a grown-up version of cyberpunk now. Like we're going, you know, and I think like Grand Theft Auto, I think it still feels very juvenile, the way that the way that sex is treated in Grand Theft Auto. Although Grand Theft Auto 6, however, I will say, based on the trailers, anyways, there does seem to be a more matured version, because it's a it's a couple. I don't know if you guys seen the trailers, but in Grand Theft Auto 6, it's like a couple, and they seem to have like a complicated, long relationship. So they seem to have a more sophisticated version of sexuality. But I would say in like Grand Theft Auto V and things like that, sex is very juvenile. But like I think as video games have gotten more sophisticated, there has been a push to include more adult themes and make them feel like almost elevated. I don't know if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um I'm gonna bring up a game that I apparently bring up every episode, which is uh so pretty much like every Bioware game, if I'm being entirely honest, is kind of in that same thing where like these games, so like you have like Star Wars Kotor, you have like the original Baldur's Gate, you have Mass Effect, um, you have these games that like could exist without sex. Like you don't need they they don't need to have it in it. Um, especially so I'm gonna bring up like Star Wars Kotor, is like that's a game where like you can, as a Star Wars character, have sex with a Jedi or a cat lady or a blind lady. Um it's like you can do, or wait, can you fuck the droid? I think you might be able to. So it's like it's one of those things where it doesn't need it. There's no reason that you really need to have a sex mechanic in Star Wars, other than, I mean, it's a game where you're improving your relationship with other people, and you know, as relationships progress, you choose one person, you go to the ultimate, whatever, uh, with that person, which is kind of what what I thought of with like sex and relationships in games, is that interpersonal relationship in games where it's almost I I wonder if it's there not necessarily as a spectacle in those cases, but or necessarily just to appeal to an adult audience. But I wonder if it's there just to create a connection or to like force you to have a connection with people in this game, because like that's as close as you can get to someone. Why else would they have it there other than to make you really care for this one person that you chose as your like ride or die? And so when something happens to them, you are so much more emotionally invested because you've gotten to that point with the Sure.
SPEAKER_03:So it like increases the stakes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and it makes you it just like inherently makes you maybe more interested or more invested in the story because you kind of like have something to lose almost. Even though you don't, it's a game, you know, you can just start the game over if you don't like it, but like it does create I think it does create that sort of feeling for people.
SPEAKER_03:Well, so so this goes so this goes to one of my future topics of why there's video games and sex. And this is kind of like a double-sided coin, and I think it matters how you frame it, but I think so. There is the it heightens the stakes, and also sex is very often used as a reward, which I think is very interesting because there's something I think inherently like so the idea of like eating as a character, you don't need to justify that other than saying you're hungry. And then like, so like, because like with like magic tokens and like sorcerer spells and whatever, you kind of need to build lore in order to justify why your character is doing that stuff. But I think there are some like bodily things like eating um hunger mechanics that don't need any justification. We just kind of inherently get it. And I think video games use sex as a shorthand for motivation a lot of times. Um, like, and I think like a very innocent version is like Mario, and then you get a kiss when you you get a kiss when you rescue Princess Peach, right? I'm like, where are you going with Mario in the middle of the game?
SPEAKER_01:But I mean, like it's I get what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I get it.
SPEAKER_01:You just brought up Mario and I'm like, did I miss a game? Yeah, something my man's about to start talking about.
SPEAKER_03:That's the structure of the Mario game, right? Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, you're right.
SPEAKER_03:And then as a reward for getting her, you get a kiss. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I w I think that's I think I think that's aligned with my thesis. That sex is used as a reward. Again, with the sex is a there's a spectrum, and I think a kiss from someone that Mario's attracted to counts on that spectrum.
SPEAKER_01:Using it as a reward, actually, I just thought of um a game I used to play a lot when I was a kid was uh there was a harvest moon game from the GameCube, and I played that ad nauseum. Yeah, right? I don't rem I don't remember which one that it's like, is that something season? I don't remember what it is. It doesn't matter. Harvest Moon for the GameCube, and like that game actively rewards you for being in a relationship and having a kid because like the entire thing is like, okay, you're a farmer, you move to a new town, you have to create relationships with people, you create friends, you eventually find someone that you would like to marry, you court that person, you have a child, and then I don't remember if it's in that game or if it's in a future Harvest Moon game, but you end up playing as your child, I'm pretty sure as well. So like the game incentivizes you and rewards you for going and finding those relationships and having a child, in that like if you didn't, you just die alone in the game and you get nothing. Whereas, like, if you do have a child and a family, you get to see that like grow on screen and you get to experience more of the game and the full game rather than just like part of the game if you didn't indulge in any of those mechanics. Because you can just not do it, but sure, why why would you just not play most of the game?
SPEAKER_03:No, this is so this is a conversation that I have with my friends a lot, and it it gets brought up in Claire Obscura because uh spoilers for very I think it's a very early spoilers for Claire Obscura Expedition 33, but Gustave and Gustave's girlfriend, Sophie, break up because Gustave wants to have kids and Sophie didn't. And they talk about uh because I I just replayed the first little bit of it, and they talk about Gustave is like, you taught me that there's more than one way to leave a legacy. And that seems to be very direct reference to the fact that they had, you know, that Sophie didn't want to have kids. But I do think that in general, I think it is interesting, um and me and my friends talk about this a lot, is that relationships are seen as accomplishments, yeah. Like they're seen as like something that you apply, like that you this it's like getting a a promotion or something like that. And so like in games, I think games use that as a like a way to reflect that. Like if you are single, so I I guess this this will go to just talking about I I guess being single, but it feels like if you are single, you just don't have that accomplishment. And I think it's interesting that in Harvest Moon that that becomes like a very literal factor in the gameplay of like if if you do not get into a relationship, you you are just not accomplished in that regard. And there's no, you know, and and I think uh again in Claire Obscure, it's interesting because Gustave had that same conversation with Sophie about like how do we even leave a legacy if if we don't have kids and we die at 30. Speaking of your like reward what does it even mean to exist past ourselves?
SPEAKER_02:Speaking of your like reward section too, there is also like uh isn't there a flade to black with Virgo and Skyles?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, and CL. CL there is. They definitely well, it's not even implied, it's like they they bone off screen.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I did not develop that relationship enough.
SPEAKER_01:Oh it's not even that far into it. It's like um they yeah, it's like what what is this? Like level, because there's are there's five levels of each character, or let's say they're five, it's like halfway through their like relationship.
SPEAKER_02:And they like talk about it but uh it just interesting in terms of like the reward conversation. Because I don't know if that's 100% like how it's presented, but at least like narratively, it is sort of like a reward for progressing their relationship.
SPEAKER_03:I think that feels like I understand that video games like have to be built off of like you achieve goals. Because like in how you program a video game is you need to do something so something else happens. Like video games are not supposed to be as complicated as as regular human relationships. Video games, if you put an input, you're supposed to get an output that's predictable. But I do think that there is something really, I guess, uh gross about having like sex and relationship as like a reward. I don't know. There's something that feels uh feels like strange about that kind of dynamic in in video games.
SPEAKER_01:I tend to agree. And it's one of those things where Okay, so this is like what I was thinking about when I was thinking about this topic was I mentioned in our episode about isolation that I like really lonely games, and my favorite games are typically pretty lonely. But then also on the flip side of that, my favorite games are also party, like like party-based games where you like Dragon Age Mass Effect, like all those like RPGs where you gather a party and you have those relationships. And most of the time when you have a party-based game, you end up having relationships within those. And you do more times than not have sex scenes. And it's one of those things where I so I will always like hard fall for like the first character that it presents you with, like almost always. So like Baldur's Gate 3, it was Shadow Heart like every time. Um basically the first person who you're like uh introduced to a relationship with, or like the possibility of in Dragon Age Origins, it was Morrigan. Um, in Mass Effect, actually, you know what? Mass Effect, I guess that was a little bit different. I kind of went the other way. But regardless, it's like so I will always do that to explore that relationship because I think that the way that those are written are often very nice. Like I find that the romance is often written better than a lot of the rest of the game in some instances, maybe not others. Sure. Um, but so I really enjoy those and I like exploring those relationships. But for me, like the sex part of it, like if it's a game like Baldur's Gate, where it's like, okay, we're gonna show you a two-minute scene of a someone fucking a bear. It's like, sure, I don't care about that. Like, that's not like I I'm happy to just like honestly skip that cut scene because it doesn't really I'm like, okay, it's implied, it's good. And I like that about Expedition 33, where it's just kind of they say it, you know it happens, but it happens off screen. I don't really need to see it. It's not what I'm looking for. And it's kind of the same with me in movies as well, where it's like if an explicit scene comes up and I'm like, especially I'm watching it with someone, like I don't I don't need to be here. I don't can we just like skip forward like 15 seconds and just kind of we we don't need to see this. So for me, it's it's almost it's not necess like it's it's not the I guess sex aspect of it that's the reward, it's the relationship and the writing aspect of it. It's just like it's knowing that like you're closer with this person that's like the reward. And the sex scene is often to me very egregious and and like almost unnecessary in a lot of situations.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. Um, so talking about Baldur's Gate and like I think that there is so and I thought about this a lot because a lot of the porn games have the same exact structure to their sex, and it's just someone telling you that you're really, really good at something, and then it's almost more about like getting this person's approval, which I think isn't that much different than like Baldur's Gate, which in Baldur's Gate, because you can choose whether you want a Starion or Karlac or Shadowheart based on like the um the approval that you get, and even like how you build romance is there's a little word that pops up in the side of your screen that says Carlac approves or whatever. And so I think I think that's a big part of the fantasy in video games specifically because the sex is a reward, whether that's explicit or or just sensual in nature, I guess. But like that's a part of the reward. And like I think that like that is it it seems to be consistent in like you are gaining the admiration of someone you are attracted to, regardless of how shallow or well written that context is, right? From like honey pop, which is a match three-porn game, to something like Baldur's Gate, which I think is an incredibly well-written, like it's still like getting that approval from someone that you are attracted to. And I think it's why, like, in Baldur's Gate, the characters need to be modeled attractive. Like all of the, like all of the main party is like kind of prototypical, attractive people. And I think the game wouldn't work as well for audiences if it wasn't that way, because the approval you would be getting would not be from people that you admired. And I think making making your main characters attractive, especially if you're meant to like build a relationship with them, is like a really big part of like I think why like JRPGs are often criticized for having uh characters that are oversexualized. And but even like Western RPGs or RPGs aren't egregious about it, I think it's still very important for their main characters, the characters that are giving you the most attention, to be um, you know, typically like uh, you know, attractive. I'm trying uh what's it what's the word?
SPEAKER_01:It's like another word for stereotypically attractive.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Conventionally?
SPEAKER_01:Um whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Conventionally, there we go.
SPEAKER_01:Conventionally, that's yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So I so I think, uh yeah, I think the the fantasy that's there is that you are getting a is that you are receiving approval from someone that you are attracted to. And that's kind of like the ultimate sex fantasy in video games.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think that uh Baldur's Gate 3 would have gone over as well if Shadowheart was a dwarf? No, absolutely not. Because that's actually a really good point. I never thought about how all of the characters are are conventionally attractive, they're all like slim, tall, buff people. Like none of them are weird little gremlins.
SPEAKER_03:And I think even though there are weird little gremlins in the world, but there are enemies exactly, yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Ugh. That's so weird. Well, this is also it's the same thing as like Hades, right? It's like everybody in Hades is hot. It's just like how the game is designed.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think it's different because in Hades, it's like the world is just filled with hot people. In Baldur's Gate, it's like your party specifically, the world's not filled with hot people. There are little goblins, there are like many strange creatures, they're just ugly people. But your party specifically is filled with hot, interesting people. Like even Hazlin or whatever, like the older dad figure, very attractive. So, like, I I just think I just think that that's that like, and I don't know if we will ever like grow past that need as an audience to have your all right, it's why it's why movie stars are attractive. Like Chris Pratt doesn't like, like, you know, it's why people get into shape to play roles that take them serious. Like Chris Pratt could have a gut when he was playing a comedic role, but when he's like an action star in like Jurassic World or whatever, he needs to be trim and fit. Not because a character actually needs to be trim and fit, but because he needs to be good to look at for two hours. And so, like, that's why he had to get into shape. And so, or to play Star Lord or whatever, too. Like, same logic. He had to get into shape for that. And so I don't know if we'll ever move past that. Like, I think video game characters, especially in like fantasy or height end action games, I think they're always going to be, to some extent, like objects of sexual interest, even if it's not explicitly sexual, but you need to be able to be attracted to them, I guess.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Because I was thinking about games that have ugly protagonists or like not conventionally hot protagonists. So the first thing I thought of, and I feel kind of bad for saying this, but I don't also is Disco Elysium. So it's like your two main characters are like, you know, oh god, why can't I remember the main guy and Kim?
SPEAKER_03:Um the main guy can also not remember his own name, so that's valid.
SPEAKER_01:So it's like you have these two people, and like the art style is kind of grungy and gross. And I'm like, I wonder how different that game would be if you could like actually romance someone because the game is kind of like it's beautiful I I I will I will say this. I think it's a beautiful game, and I think the art style is really great, but it is a grungy, gross art style. Like it is, it is kind of gross, everything does look gross. Um, and it's just like I wonder how a game like that would fare with romance seats. I think it would just be disgusting. I don't think people would like it.
SPEAKER_03:No, I don't think people would like it, but I also think it would be saying something about like finding love in the midst of dysfunction, or maybe something about how love is the only stable thing in a world that's come coming unraveled, or like it would it would say something about love that is connected to how disgusting the world is. Like it couldn't make a neutral statement on love. It would be like, or it could be pathetic, like maybe you fall in love with a drug, like with a drug addict or whatever, and you're also a drunk that can't remember your own name. And so it's like, you know, how people who are in the midst of dysfunction find each other and make each other worse, whatever. Like you can go any direction, but I don't think you could just like it could just be like an okay thing. Like, I don't think he would just genuinely take someone on a date.
SPEAKER_01:That that seems like it wouldn't be the weirdest DLC ever.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's good. So do you do you find yourself do you find yourself being in like uh like uh invested in love stories and video games? I I'll say this. The first video game love story I was ever like, oh, I love this as a romance. Um, the the two first ones that come to mind are Florence, which is a game about going on a date in your mid-20s um and getting your heart broken. And I was like, oh, video games can talk about romance in an interesting way. And then Red Dead 2, and Arthur Morgan has like some romantic history that I was interested in. I wouldn't say that's like a romance storyline, that's more of like him coming to grips with how horrible of a person that he was through his romantic connections. But like those were examples of ways where I felt like a lot of the narrative value came from the romance and sexual relationship of the characters.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. I think for me, I think that the romance like adds a lot to a game, just in just in how much, again, like it gets you invested in the game. So for me, it's like if it's there, it's another thing that's gonna like hook me onto the game and also give it replayability if there's like multiple options. And I think that's a big part of like Baldur's Gate is like we're gonna just gonna this is just gonna be a Baldur's Gate episode, but like there are like how many different party members do you have? You're like seven party members, whatever, that are like romanceable and sure. Like you could you like you'd if you're really invested in the romance, you would do every playthrough to do all of the romances. And I feel like that's a big thing to like get people invested and make them play it again and keep playing. Um even in a game that's single player and it doesn't matter if people continue playing, they've already bought it. You know, developers made their mundy, but they still put it in there to, you know, make you continue playing it. For me, I don't think that like I really like romance in games. Depending. Okay. But I don't think it's something that keeps me playing the game more. Sure. Like, I've still only done one full playthrough of Baldur's Gate 3. I've started a couple, but like I kind of end up just defaulting back to the same romance every single time. I don't think I've romanced anyone else. I've played Dragon Age Origins, like, I don't know, probably like six or seven times, and I've always romanced Morgan. There's never been another option. Um, but that's just because it's like the most interesting storyline to me. But like if the romance wasn't in the game, I think I would still like it just as much. I don't think I like need the romance in the game to enjoy the game, and I don't think I need it. I don't like I don't think it matters as much to me, but if it's there and it's well written and it's well done, and it's not just like egregious, um, like just like crazy sex scenes all over the place, then I think it has a really nice place and it's something to kind of like hook me on it and keep me going. But Seth, what do you think?
SPEAKER_02:It's this is one of those conversations that I just don't feel like I have like a super strong opinion on. It's just like so outside of the like my typical idea of like game and genre.
SPEAKER_03:You've played games with romance. I've played games. I know that you have.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, but like we've almost literally talked about all of them. I'm even trying to think of like is there a game.
SPEAKER_03:Have you played Dostashima?
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_03:Um you didn't you did you killed all your characters in Detroit Become Human before they could fall in love with each other?
SPEAKER_01:Wait, is there romance in Detroit Become Human? Yeah. I wouldn't know. Oh. Apparently I don't know either. I've played that game through and I never I didn't I never got any romance out of it.
SPEAKER_03:I think the maid and the guy that was a slave have like a thing, can have like a thing. Oh. The more you know.
SPEAKER_02:Brad, have you listened to our Detroit Become Human episode? Because if not, you should.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, good.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Because I say some insane things in that episode.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. But I'm like, but the problem is that I'm mostly in line with you, because that's pretty much how I played the game, too. So it's like I'm sitting there and everyone's calling you crazy, and I'm just like, nah, I get it. I'm kind of there too. So fantastic.
SPEAKER_03:Like, even so, even a game like Sinar Wildhearts, right? Which is just like a um like a game about driving a motorcycle back and forth, that game starts with a breakup. Like that game, like the first thing that happens in Sinara Wildheart is you get your heartbroken and you're very sad. And then that that creates the motivation to need freedom. And I think that's something that everyone can can relate to is feeling like you need freedom after a heartbreak. So I would say even Sainara Wildheart uses sexual human relationships to build the narrative impulse to go find freedom.
SPEAKER_02:I have no idea what that game is. Yeah, I've never heard of it.
SPEAKER_03:It's really good. Um it's yeah, it's very it's a very good game. Um, okay, so there's a couple things, there's a couple other things that I wanted to talk about. First of all, um are you well, are you gonna give me an answer? No.
SPEAKER_02:No, just keep going. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. So I think um I think it's interesting that video games use sex, because I think it's really one of the only places where video games can actually become unethical. Because like, I think like I don't think a video game can be so violent that it's unethical, right? I think even if you're killing innocent people, even if you're killing aid workers, like no matter who you kill in a video game, there's a sense that like no matter how much damage you inflict, you're not actually doing anything unethical.
SPEAKER_01:Even like Modern Warfare 2 when you shoot up an airport full of just people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no Russian or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I felt pretty bad playing, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know. I think I maybe I like I think like uh so like in uh um what's uh Fire Emblem Three Houses, you can date your students. And so, and the game it's it's very Japanese. Um, it's also published by Nintendo. Uh but you you are basically a teacher, and it goes out of the way to be like, oh, you're basically the same age as these kids, so it's okay. Um, and you're a teacher, and then you you can date them later in the game. Um and so like that I feel like is unethical in a way that no Russian isn't. No Russian feels like an acceptable like amount of like edgelord territory. But I do feel like three houses dating your students, like that's unacceptable in a way that there's not really a a way to justify it or a way to like find like find value in there somewhere. Because I think no Russian you can create justifications for.
SPEAKER_01:Like you can be like I agree, because it it was part of the mission. He was undercover, he needed to do this so they could get to the bad guy and do, you know, like there's the justification for doing all of that. I agree.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and and I think like even like as a as an artist, like Seth is literally looking at me with his head to like uh sideways.
SPEAKER_02:I don't I don't know what the right way to put it is, but a very like uh purist-coded, like sex bad, violence okay.
SPEAKER_01:Like American take. I was literally I I didn't want to say American as the non-American here, but I'm not that's not what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03:I'm saying that when you break sexual ethics in video games, it feels a lot worse than when you break any other type of ethics. Like when you break like violent ethics, that feels very acceptable. But I think when you like in persona, right? Like the way that persona treats um its ostensibly underage characters, like that feels way worse than I think any amount of violence could feel. But maybe may but maybe there's I say it by my point.
SPEAKER_02:Is this not like violence okay, sex bad?
SPEAKER_01:Which is like it's an okay RPG. I have one thing. Maybe this is so maybe this is just like a JRPG thing. Because I I thought have you have either of you guys played Persona, like any of the Persona games?
SPEAKER_03:No, but Katie has. I played a little bit of Persona 5.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, because I was gonna say, Persona 5 is one of those things, and I've had this conversation with my friends Ad Nauseum, where like you play as a high school student, you're like 16 or 17 or whatever you are, like you're a child. Um, and yet there are romances in the game, and you get to choose romance paths, you get to choose your girlfriend in Persona 5. And in a couple of them, it it is implied that there is some canoodling going on, and that I think is like an ethical problem. Um, or like could pose an ethical problem in that it's like, okay, I as when did I play that? So I, as like a 27-year-old playing this game, should not be romancing a 16-year-old in a video game. Sure. But then you bring up, but then it's like the counter-argument, and I I I'll play devil's advocate on this, um, where it's like, well, the counter-argument is in game, I'm also 16. So I'm a 16-year-old dating a 16-year-old. I'm not a 27-year-old dating a 16-year-old. I'm and but but and I don't agree with that. Like I will say, I think it's a weird argument, but I think it's a valid argument.
SPEAKER_03:I think so. I think it's like it's like reading a John Green novel, right? Like if I was to read Turtles All the Way Down, which I did and I loved, and that was about the romantic life of like a 16-year-old girl. And I think I do not feel like a pervert for loving that book. I think that book is incredible. I think there are there are sexual themes and uh sexual situations that happen in that game. I don't feel like a like I feel like it's fine to love that book and I don't, but I do think that the interactivity of video games makes it feel more voyeuristic in some way. Like it makes it feel like like asking someone to participate in that way is very different than having like reading a book. Because I think like a lot like most of YA, right? Like most of YA is about young people having relationships. And I think I think it's a I think, you know, I think those genres are very good, and you don't necessarily have to age out of those genres. But I do agree, in a video game, because you are the one making it happen, there's a there's a feel, like there's a feeling of of grossness attached to that in a way that doesn't exist when you watch the Hunger Games and you have really strong feelings about PETA and Katniss as a viewer, like you are imposing your own views on this teenager's sexuality or like you know, sexual wishes or whatever, as an adult man having an opinion on this relationship. I'm still gonna have an opinion on whether I think she should go for PETA or Gail, because that's what the movie wants me to do. But it feels like as a viewer, it's much safer and more disconnected than than if it was a video game. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:If you're reading a book or a movie, what's happening is predetermined. And like if you're reading a book, it's almost like reading a journal. You know what I mean? It's like, well, whatever's happening here is gonna happen. But like the game, you're right, you're like you're making it happen. Like I have to consciously choose this person and be like, you you're it. Like I'm I'm and that feels weird.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, I I don't know. I I think it's interesting, um, like the how sexual ethics like Seth, so do you think there is a certain amount of violence that becomes bad? And I think we've asked this before like a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it feels like some sort of conversation we had before. Like, is there an amount of violence that's bad?
SPEAKER_03:Or like a like a way of being violent, like Mortal Kombat. Do you think Mortal Kombat is so grotesque that it becomes bad?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, like, Mortal Kombat is like gratuitously violent, but like, you know, intentionally so, right? Like it's I think you make a good you made a good point about it's like it's it's a spectacle. The the gratuitous violence is the point. It's to it's not even necessarily to like make a point about something, it's like, hey, violence is cool.
SPEAKER_03:It is cool though. That's the thing. But it is cool.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, like, you know, there's there's enough like violent movies and games and people keep engaging in the media, so clearly it's cool. Um but I my point of earlier is it is like is the sort of sexual ethic bad violence okay? I mean, like, because at the end of the day, like they should both be not okay, but I think like culturally, at least in America, right, we're very like Puritan coded just from like the start. And as a result, it tends to just be like anything involving sex, bad. Don't that's that's the wrong kind of media. Um whereas I think if we had like a more outside perspective, they would be like, yeah, who cares?
SPEAKER_03:We gotta get a European on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say, yeah, you need that European nude beach uh perspective.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean like ironically, unironically, I guess, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so I I think um it's also funny. I don't think there are any gay characters in video games that you can romance that aren't build your own characters. Because like if you say like Bouldersgate, you can be queer, or uh Cyberpunk 2077, you can be that doesn't count. That's a coward's answer. You can in Startup can be anything, it's it's yeah, you can you can in Stardew, but again, oh, can you or can you not?
SPEAKER_02:I think you can, yeah. Because I was reading the thing about how I would assume you can.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but like uh but I still think that doesn't count because canonically the character is just whatever you and so if you are gay and you want to play Baldur's Gates, then you just make a guy and then you romance Gale because he's my favorite. But I don't think there are like I because I think there are lesbians in uh in video games.
SPEAKER_01:There's absolutely everyone that I can think of is a lesbian. I I've been thinking of that as an four examples I can think of are all women. That's so interesting.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And so I think, and I and I think this is and I think this goes back to sex having to be appealing. I think it's because video games as a male thing, seeing two women on Screen Kiss is just going to be easier to market than seeing two guys on Screen Kiss. I think there is no way Joel could ever be gay, but making Ellie uh gay with like I think that's just like more acceptable to see her kiss Dina than uh to see Joel kiss another man. Like, I which I think is which I think is interesting, and I wonder, because we still haven't had our first if video games still have not had their first like lead protagonist who is a gay man.
SPEAKER_01:Like anyone? I can't think of a single one, and that's actually bothering me. I'm annoyed about it. Like, what why why is there another one?
SPEAKER_02:Like an example somewhere. Like, you know what?
SPEAKER_01:The example is gonna be like an indie game. Yeah, made by a gay guy. And it's like, and that's a perfectly valid example. Like, of course, like you want to see yourself in the game, and the developer's gonna put that that's awesome. But like a triple A game or even a double A.
SPEAKER_00:Triple A game. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Even double A. Like it, I don't I cannot think of a single one.
SPEAKER_03:Something, yeah, something with more than like a million dollar budget, like something that had like some resources and some finances to it. I don't that so I Googled this but beforehand and I couldn't find anything. Did you find did you find one?
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm I'm I'm also Yeah, I yeah so I Googled this beforehand.
SPEAKER_03:And I think I just think it's really interesting, and I think that's a side effect of um the need for sexuality to be appealing in video games. Um because I think that first of all, I don't know. I feel like gaming is a relatively like sexuality uh like neutral hobby. Like I don't know how straight like Baldur's Gate like Baldur's like Astros, like I think of like all the video games that I love and that get celebrated, and they all seem like they have a lot of gay fans. And so I don't think like I don't know. I have no idea. Like I have no idea why why this is the case, but it's just something that I think is really interesting, and that's my theory is that oh, we said games with specifically more than a million dollar budget.
SPEAKER_01:I was gonna say Dream Daddy is the only one that I can Oh yes. I would consider that an indie game, though. But yeah, well no, 100%, and I I I agree. It's so interesting. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, there's gay dating sims and and stuff like that, but yeah, dream Dream Daddy, which is a which is like a sweet and like just a game kind of sincere where like that is It's not like the point of the game, like it's not a dating sim.
SPEAKER_02:No, it's just like this is how the character operates.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. And it's just yeah, just like how just how it is. Kratos is Kratos is canonically straight. Um, I think Aloy ha is a lesbian.
SPEAKER_01:I think so. It seems like it eludes that way, but it also kind of seems like it doesn't. It's it seems like almost purposefully ambiguous to me. Although I will lean on the side of I think she is gay, but it to me, there's enough things in the game that I'm like, am I wrong? Am I just like inserting my own like thing here? I don't know. But then you have like Max Caulfield and Life is Strange is a gay protagonist, but also a uh a female protagonist.
SPEAKER_03:But yes. Um and then I I'm I'm like 90% sure that lead protagonist in the heretic prophet, which is Naughty Dog's new game. Um I I'm like 90% sure that she's gonna be gay. Uh she has the shaved head and everything. Anyways, but I so yeah, I think I think I which might well know who knows, might be homophobic to say. But I do think that uh yeah, that that's that's something that's that's very interesting to me. Yeah, like maybe we'll get something like from the life is who directs Life is Strange or who uh what what studio is that?
SPEAKER_01:I don't remember.
SPEAKER_03:Like even in like Telltale or something like that, uh that that's not Life is Strange, but they do narrative.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I was thinking of.
SPEAKER_03:It's I also don't think Telltale exists anymore.
SPEAKER_02:I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01:I think they gotta Square Enix makes it.
SPEAKER_03:Square Enix do they develop it or they publish it?
SPEAKER_01:They oh sorry, they published it.Nod Entertain Don't Nod Entertainment development.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, don't nod, yeah. Yeah, so so maybe Don't Nod will have our first because they're a bigger studio, um, and they touch on like more contemporary themes or whatever. But um, but yeah, I don't know. I just think that's a very strange thing. And I think like when you look at how video games are taught or how are interacted with in general, like I think it would be difficult for straight men to feel incentivized to do something if their reward was romance with another guy. Like, I think like if your reward is romance with a woman, women are going to feel interested in that, and then also men are going to feel interested in that. But I think that, or I think if you're a woman and you're like, you know, and you're building that straight love story as well. Like I think Laura Croft might have had some um romance. I think he might be right. Yeah, like I think I think that's also acceptable. But I just think it's interesting that like I think sex very much is a part of video games. I think it's always going to be a part of video games, and I think part of the evidence of that is that things that make sex less appealing just aren't included in video games. And I think. That's an example of it. That if it was a neutral, if it was a neutral framing device, like it would be crazy. Like, if this was film, that would be insane to be like, we've never had a gay protagonist in film before, which obviously isn't true. But to be like, oh, it's 2025, we still have not uh had a gay protagonist uh in video games up to this point. That's crazy. Like that blew my mind when I learned that.
SPEAKER_01:I'm genuinely angry about that, if I'm being entirely honest. That's a wild stat.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So, anyways, that's kind of the that's kind of the last thing that I wanted to talk about was like this this the the way that I think video games treat sex, like there's so many little fall-off topics that go around that. Like, I think there's there's a way, like a lot of people are worried about like video games reinforcing any kind of antisocial behavior. And I think when you make the antisocial behavior sexual in nature, that heightens the consequence for the antisocial behavior. Um so like there's a you know, there's a conversation about like maybe video games do have a responsibility to be more ethical in how they treat sex than other types of uh situations in life. Like if you're robbing a bank um and then go sexually harass someone, like that, like one of those elements is gonna be a lot more unacceptable in the video game. Like like you know what I mean? Like I do think I uh yeah, so I I do think like I would, yeah, like I would be an assassin in a video game. Like that's fine. Like I have no problems with that, you know, playing a hitman or whatever. But I I do think that maybe video games do have a responsibility to treat sex with more ethical realism than they do other kind of topics, um, which is not which is not a which is like not a stance that I thought I would have. Because I think I'm really pro free expression and things like that. And like I think if you want to make like a, I don't know, like, you know, a there's that one game about shooting JFK that you know is controversial. What? And like there's a bunch of games that put violence in a political uh you know, a political context that make it controversial.
SPEAKER_01:What's the sniper game where you can shoot Hitler's testicles? Oh god.
SPEAKER_03:Sniper Elite?
SPEAKER_01:Sniper Elite?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and and like there, and like there, I am not I do not think like honey pop or these other sexually explicit games are necessarily unethical, mostly because I think the like honey pop is too horny to be unethical. Like everyone just wants to have sex all the time. And so you're just like in this very, very horny world. And so like I like I think that's like I don't think there's any special kind of ethics that attach to that at all. But I do think that like things like Fire Emblem or persona, I I do think that there needs to be more thought around that than kind of any other like part of the human experience, just because it feels like the antisocial behavior is all of a sudden so high risk. I don't know. I like I would be more comfortable with like playing a very racist game like uh than I would be.
SPEAKER_01:Like I think I'm just saying, if there was a game that was good and also racist, I think I would be like, I mean, there are plenty where like you have you have like time pieces, like even I mean, like even you know, to a certain extent, Red Dead is one of those kinds of like it's a parlance of the times. It's just everyone's got tuberculosis and hates everyone who's not white. It's like, I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Sure. So, anyways, but yeah, so uh that that's kind of my I'm gonna I'm gonna like my ending statement is just gonna be that um I think regardless of what games you play, that sex is going to be a part of those stories uh for a lot of a lot of the games uh uh that we enjoy and it's worth thinking about and thinking about seriously, especially because they're you know, I I think there is a heightened sense of of uh of moral um consequence that is associated with this topic.
SPEAKER_01:Brett, do you have a closing Yeah thoughts on the Well I I'm still caught up on the fact that I can't think of a game with a gay protagonist, and I think that I, you know, I've been playing with the idea of starting to make a game or write a game, and I think that's just what I'm gonna do. I g I I gotta just make because I I started thinking about it, and even games where you can make, you know, like queer choices, um, it's always like it's like Baldur's Gate, where it's like, oh no, you can just romance anyone as anyone because that's what the game wants you to do. But then you have like older RPGs where it kind of like a lot of people's sexualities are locked in, like the mass effects, it's like, okay, you can like this person is like straight, this person's straight, this person's gay, this person's straight. But people don't like those as much. And people complain when there's locked-in sexualities, specifically because it's like if there's a gay man playing and he says, like, oh, I want to romance this guy, I should be able to, but then why wouldn't it be just as acceptable if we just had like a gay man in the cast, as well as like a straight guy and a lesbian? It's like I don't know. People I think I think that people are really caught up on like locking in sexualities in games because they want to be able to do whatever they want, but I think it's atrocious that there isn't like a really good case of like gay representation, male gay representation that I can think of. Um, also, closing statement: I think that the next God of War game, I think Kratos should just come out as openly gay after like all these years. And I think there should just be an egregious sex scene with him and the gods. I think there should be like an orgy on Mount Olympus, even though he's killed everyone on Mount Olympus. Maybe it's a flashback. I don't know. But I think that Kratos should just be gay. That would be sick. I'd love that.
SPEAKER_03:I think so. First of all, I think it would be very on theme because it would be a very Greek way to end the 100%. And uh I I I would I would I would want him to be bi because I think he did love his.
SPEAKER_01:I think he is, honestly. Like I I I always thought he was, but that's maybe that's just because he's Greek, like a Greek guy. They kind of all are. So Sad, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_03:What are your closing thoughts?
SPEAKER_02:Uh what is there to say? Uh I still, and I think there's actually a a space to explore this idea. Is like Dempsey, you've talked before that you want to talk about religion in video games for an episode, specifically focusing on like some religion in um Japanese centric games.
SPEAKER_03:Uh how they express like also Hollow Knight used rosaries, not Japanese, but yes, I think that's the first thing.
SPEAKER_02:Hollow Knight plays a around a lot with um religious undertones. And in like a same sort of way, I think there's an interesting exploration to be had on developers from different countries and sort of how they express sexuality through like the narrative experience. Like I don't think it's a coincidence that for Expedition 33, like from a French developer, they have like the relationship between Virgo and Seal Sil, C L C L. I don't know why I can't remember her name, um, is a sort of like casual off-screen thing. That isn't like just a sort of off-mention, whereas like for an American audience, and maybe by like an American director, an American team, they might have chosen to take that in a different way that was, I don't know, maybe either more explicit, not like and by that I mean not necessarily like on screen, right? But a a sort of more overt reference to what's happening, other than just being like, oh, they like went off and like did the thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Americans don't like casual relationships in media. That's often seen as like bad, and the character growth is to get away from that kind of relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Whereas every CD project red game, a Polish developer, a European developer, like both like Cyberpunk 2077 and Witcher 3 and like other Witcher games, it's like they're both very like, you know, you can go to the bathhouse, you can do whatever like there's there is a lot of open relationships in those games. So that's I I think that is a really interesting topic.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Well, we did an episode. Um, hopefully Katie will be back um raised risen from the dead uh sometime soon. Um other than that, god damn it, fucking Katie. I have to do the closing. So um today was do I have to say the date? Is that what I say? September 18th, 2024. Um, this has been Overthinking Games. If you have an opinion about sex and video games um or restaurants that uh charge you$70 for five courses and don't give you dessert, um feel free to email us. Uh the emails in the description. Uh follow us on TikTok. I'm I'm posting again. We our workload is easier now, so I'm posting more often. And uh and Instagram, if you're I guess over like 45 and use Instagram. Um or blue sky. Tweet at us. I'll see it. I'll I'll tweet you back. And uh thanks for this. Has been a video game podcast about what what video games can teach us.
SPEAKER_01:Uh bye. Bye. Hashtag Kratos should be gay. Bye. Okay.