Ep.035: Know Your Audience (Part 2)

What Cracker Barrel’s Rebrand Got Wrong (and What Chick-fil-A Gets Right)

In Part 2 of our branding series, we look at what happens when a company tries to modernize and ends up losing what people loved most. Using Cracker Barrel’s recent rebrand backlash as a case study, we talk about the tension between staying relevant and staying true to your identity.

We compare it to Chick-fil-A’s approach, where brand strength comes from consistent systems, not constant design changes. Then we break down how these lessons apply to service businesses, especially those that serve customers in high-stress moments.

You’ll walk away with practical filters for rebranding without confusion, insights from StoryBrand and Atomic Habits, and ways to build a brand people trust over time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

All right, well, Benji Brady, welcome in to episode 35. We are through Know Your Audience Part 2. So we're back again talking about branding.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

I have to admit, man, uh the the previous episode I liked, Adam. It's a great topic. It's a great topic talking about branding and marketing. And we get to continue it today.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I know. We get to dive into it. Because I mean, well, at the end of the day, it's kind of nice. You and I are the marketing guys, and poor Brady is the he's ever. I'm just sitting back here just listening, you know, like.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Okay. Yeah, I mean, I get it. I understand the importance of it. Is it my favorite topic? No, but hey, I'm good.

Case Study: Cracker Barrel Misstep

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Deep down, he likes it. He knows it. I do. This is why uh Team Wilson works so well. One of you's operations, one of you's marketing goes hand in hand, yin and yang. Yeah. So uh well, let's dive back in. Just kind of recap uh last episode. We um were talking about just cracker barrel and and not necessarily really them. We were kind of using them as a quote unquote like a case study. Um, you know, they made some changes. And again, I made a joke that there's a small part of me that wonders if it was just a PR stunt from day one. You never know. So you conspiracy theorist? Uh uh not like Benji is.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

He studied, Brady. He studied hard. He he wouldn't he went and did a bunch of research.

Branding vs Marketing: Identity vs Story

Know Your Audience: SERVPRO Lens

SPEAKER_00 1:29

I did. I was trying to figure this one out. I I'd look and then obviously, I mean, as a social media guy, um, anybody that's listening, you couldn't I mean you couldn't get on social media without seeing it. I mean, you saw it everywhere, and um, especially for us being here in Alabama, of course, is very prominent. There, I mean, there's one on every corner like Dollar General down here. Um, but you see them everywhere, so it was it was a big change. And I don't think actually anything in our like area for our area of Birmingham, I hadn't seen any change. So yeah, I don't I was about to say, I don't think I've seen that here either. I haven't. I didn't see anything change, I didn't see anything update. Um, but I mean I just saw what the what it was gonna be. I knew they had some that were making those changes, but what we're really trying to talk into is is how to be careful with that, and and not necessarily like the topic of the episode is not for you listeners if you're like, well, I want to make a brand change. And yeah, you know, what we're trying to do is really think marketing is marketing 101. This is what I when I pitched this to Benji and Brady, that's what I said, hey, it's marketing one-on-one. Know your audience. Who are you marketing to? Who are you trying to do that? And we talked about that because branding is is part of it. And so branding kind of tells those things where uh branding is your identity, marketing tells your story. Yeah, and so that's what we really dove into and kind of looked at those. So, what we want to pick up is exactly that knowing your audience, knowing who you market to. Um, just to kind of give uh our listeners an example for us um as SurfPro, especially from the digital marketing realm and and really marketing boots on the ground, um, the team that you help work with a lot, Benji, our business development team. Yeah, you know, our our importance, knowing our audience, is also being in front of them when it matters most. Um, and that's something that we talked about. I think brand recognition is important. I think nobody can go anywhere without saying they haven't seen one of our green bands, right? They haven't seen the the orange rooftop. But we've talked about for us, like for instance, we we've never done any branding or advertising like on the interstate, right? Like on any signs you see, because we looked at that as knowing your audience. To us, that's not who our audience is, even from a branding and marketing standpoint. Yeah, when you're driving down the road and you see, hey, you can get$10,000 off on a brand new truck, you're probably driving and you're driving in that truck that you're on, you're like, man, I really could trade this in.

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

I I could get a new truck. But if you're driving down the road and you see something like a service, uh to me and my marketing brain, I just feel like it doesn't resonate with people because in that moment, like this morning, we had a water damage. I will not be calling anybody because I Wait, how many, how many is that for you, Adam? This is like number seven.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

I was gonna say it's gotta be six, six, seven. Six seven, Brady. Six seven. Made it again.

Emergency Services and Trust

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Golly. Oh, wow. I walked into that one. What have we and look not to sound bad, we're not calling anyone this morning. We're not calling because we're tired of paying someone to do it. So I'm I'm turning. Look, I haven't even finished WRT and I feel like I know what I need to know. All right, you should be an expert by now. I should. So, but knowing knowing that audience and knowing when that you see those things that we've got to do, we've got to understand who are we selling to, right? Um, we've talked a lot about this at uh, you know, Atomic Habits from James Clear is a book that you uh should read. He talked about things as well as that, as that habits are also tied to identity, right? So the things that you do is tied to your brand. One of the quotes that he wrote down, he said, I'm trying, I'm not smokers typically don't say um, I'm trying to quit smoking. They say, I'm not a smoker. Okay. And so what they're trying to do is they're trying to brand themselves as like, I'm not a smoker, but I'm trying to quit. So we need to align those brands with our identity. So um, Benji Brady, I want to pitch it to you just from a Serve Pro standpoint. How do you guys feel like our branding, especially some of the new stuff that that we've really seen over the past, you know, three to five years as corporate really has done a great job with marketing? How do you guys feel when you hear know your audience with the brand that y'all own and represent? How do we, how do you feel like we need to identify with customers?

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, I I think it's a fantastic question. Um, most of the time we tell we like to tell people, you know, we we are going to take care of you, but we hope that you never have to see us. We're one of those companies, you know. Yep. Um, because we're if if you're calling our company, something's happened, right? Something happens to your home. It's your as an individual, as a family, it is your most valuable asset that you own. Um, you you have this and you've poured all of your money into this home and or or business that you work at, whatever the case may be for a business owner. You've you've poured your life savings into this company, and you have to call us because you you need our help. So we're an emergency-driven business, and I think that our headquarters has done a fantastic job, as you mentioned. Just kind of we we talked about the storybook, you know, you mentioned last week, and you flip through the storybook and you we start out as a residential company, and now we're a residential and commercial company and government company. When I mean government, we do government service work. And it it it really it's it's really been interesting to see that morph into not just a housetop that you mentioned, Adam, last last episode, but really more of a building, a structure, a concept of hey, we're more than just your home. We're wherever you are if you need us. So that that's that's what I take away from it. And I think they've done a fantastic job of of branding us that way.

Dominant Buying Motive: Why People Choose

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really it's really two things. One is any type of brand that's out there, you know, with a customer, with your audience, you know, with your customer base, you establish trust. So people people do business with people they like. People do business with people they trust. So when they see the, in our case, when they see the orange housetop, then hopefully what a customer will say is they they're probably like like you said, Adam, not driving down the road in their truck and going, I'm not they're not gonna have a water damage in their truck. Right. I mean, I guess they could, but we've gotten you know calls like that before. We have, we have, you know, but when they think of water, fire, mold, any of those types of core services, then they equate to oh, I need to call ServePro because I trust them. Yeah, why do you why do you pick iPhone over Android or Android over iPhone? It's because you trust that company, you trust that brand. So sec and secondly, I think it go there's a concept out there called uh DBM, so dominant buying motive. What is the dominant buying motive that somebody has to buy a service, buy a product, uh, believe in a brand? And so we have to, when you say know your audience, then it's a question of are we making if if there's a change that's going to be made, are we making the change because it seems good to us? Does it feel good to us? Or have we really asked our customers, or not even ask, but have have our customers come back to us and say, hey, we we see that there needs to be an update. We see that there needs to be a change, we see that there needs to be a a tweak in how it's done. Otherwise, if it's not broke, don't fix it. You know? And I think you kind of talked about that last time, Adam, is is a difference between like tweaking and and updating versus completely changing. You know, if your customers are not asking for the change and they trust you, then then why change?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah. Could you imagine Adam, you you I don't know if you mentioned this last week. You were talking about the Cracker Barrel specifically. Could you imagine the amount of money they would have had to invest to update every single store?

Costly Consequences of Rebrands

SPEAKER_00 9:42

That would have cost a lot of money. That's a lot. I mean, think about it even from your own your standpoint as owners. I mean, like when Corp when we changed to the new branding, look again, looks great, love it. But that's a lot of stuff if they if they had to, if, if, you know, if corporate had come and said, hey guys, you gotta change everything. That would be vehicle rewraps, building signs, cards, you know, and and luckily that's not something that they did because it's different, right? Like people aren't coming to our offices. It's not the same as um as as like is is what you would go to a store. But I mean, that would be that's a lot. And so, and so luckily for them, they they caught this, or I say they caught it. I don't feel like they caught it, like the general public caught it. Yeah, uh the customer caught it. The customer caught it before they saw and yes, they've made some changes. And what was really funny is that I I saw that they turned some of their you know, their mistakes into like social media. They uh the when they announced that it was coming back, they posted one of those big like interstate signs that you see when you drive, and it's uh and it was one of the old signs, and it was like we heard what you said, you know, and and we're doing this. It was bad, and it was just that on a blue sky, like that's it. And then they actually posted a reel of the company coming in and taking the old sign down and putting a new sign back and putting I'm well I say old, taking the old, new look the new old, yeah, yeah, yeah. And putting the original cracklebarrel logo back up. So um, but and here's and here's the thing, and this is where for our listeners, you've got to figure out for you how do you identify it to your business. Yeah. But I mean, here's the thing uh when people came and ate at Crackle Barrel, right? I don't think they just ate there. I feel like they identified themselves as like, hey, we're a crackle barrel person. Yeah. This is this is what we this is what we enjoy. We enjoy uh comfort, we enjoy relaxing, we enjoy sitting, you know, it was one of those places I think we joked about in last episode where you're kind of okay if they're busy. Like, hey, it's a 30-minute wait. All right, it's you know, 75 degrees outside. We're just gonna sit on the porch in a rocking chair and and wait.

Identity, Ritual, and Place Attachment

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Well, to your point, you know, you talk about that. If if you know the waitress and waiters, you know, obviously you may not know their names, but they had the they had the aprons they wear. I mean, were they gonna change that? Who knows? Um, it kind of reminded me back again when we were young kids that you'd go to your grandparents' house or whatever, and you'd see your grandma in the kitchen and they've got the apron on, right? They're making the flour and the for the biscuits or whatever. And it just kind of brought you back to that um old-time feel. And if you know your audience and you know this, what they're coming to get or coming to experience, I think not just knowing your audience, I think they get to know the people at the location, at the business, because those people are what help make that brand come to life. That's not a marketing strategy, that's being a part of the brand. And if you have a good brand and if you have a good system, you have good people, then those people really want to help make that brand come to life because guess what? It it creates repeat business for that for those people, you know, to come back to and whatever else. And um, I just think that you know, you're you you've you've made the statement that you're not just selling to the people who see themselves in your brand. You're actually selling the fact that we want you to come back to see our brand again, use our brand again. And it's repeat, it's repeat opportunity.

Consistency as Competitive Advantage

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah. Yeah. I I think the customers for that, they kind of know what they're getting into. And and similar with with our industry, people know what they're getting into. And we've we've we've spent hours really dialing that in. Like, you know, from when uh you know a party responder shows up to how they deal with a customer, to letting them know, hey, this is what's going on, to them saying, like, hey, I don't know what to do. I haven't talked to my agent. Hey, I can handle that. I yeah, I understand what they're gonna do. And I think that's for us in our industry is knowing our audience is that we, you know, I mean, yes, I think there's plenty of people that do talk to their agents, but there's a lot of people that don't. Like, I've never spoken to our agent at all, but they've been great when we've had anything. But it I wouldn't know if I hadn't been in the industry, I've never really thought about well, what's my first plan of action when I have something happen in my home, you know? And so our our audience, our brand is saying, hey, we're here to make it like it never even happened, and our job is to help you with that. So I think knowing those things, because here's here's what it says, Patrick Lancioni, he talks about how clarity is your single biggest competitive advantage over your comp over your competition. Um, if you're confused, and you know, I think we kind of touched on this in the last episode, but if you're confused, your customers are confused. Gotta be confused. So if we're if we're not clear on on what our brand is or what your brand is, listeners, whatever industry you either own or work in, if you're not clear on what your job is, and when I say that, like what is your process? So for me, working through video, like I my first thing is when somebody tries to call and they say, Hey, I want to do a project, great. We need to have what I call a dream session. Okay. I need to sit, I'm gonna throw a spaghetti on the wall. I need to know what you want to do, and I need to tell you what we can do and what we probably don't need to do or that. And then once from that process, then we go from there, you know, we define what we're doing, we define the contract, we have the day shoot. So there's a whole process that I've put into play before I even step foot on a client's office or their job site. We need to go through all these things first. But if I was confused as someone who does that, like, well, you know, maybe we could do this, then I'm gonna put that confusion into my client. They're gonna like, yeah, is this really who I want filming my brand? Yeah, for sure. I want to do it. So I think having those things are are doing that. I mean, think about it, knowing your purpose. I mean, Benji, Chick-fil-A, I mean, hey, consistent service. I how often, and it's so funny because we went to a Chick-fil-A uh on the way back, we had a job shootout in Missouri and we stopped at one, and it did have a little bit of inconsistency. And I with the guy I was with, I was like, they're just off their game today because this isn't normal. Yeah, and you but you noticed it. Noticed it because I normally don't and it wasn't anything wrong, they were just busy, and I think they were a little shorthanded, um, which typically is not the case at all when you do Chick-fil-A's. And so, I mean, you know, especially when you do the like say you order through the app, you know, you know, drive up, hey, my name's Adam. All right, great, got your order, you need to add anything? Nope. Hey, my pleasure. They'll be waiting for you at the window, and you know that's how it's gonna be.

Chick-fil-A Systems, Not New Logos

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I have a I have a really unique Chick-fil-a story, no joke. Just happened to me last week, and it wasn't it wasn't the the it wasn't the service at the location. The food was fantastic and all. I actually got frustrated at Chick-fil-A because when I went on my app, I used the scan, the points, you know, or whatever, and I also pay with the QR code on the app. It just it's easier for me. The reason I got frustrated is I was trying to reload money to give them and it wouldn't take my payment on my card. If for some reason, it just kept kicking it out, kicking it out, kicking it out. Finally, I had to delete the app, reinstall it, and guess what? It worked. So I had that was the first time I've had a I wouldn't say I was upset at Chick-fil-A. Something happened with the application, but I was trying to pay them, you know. And normally people are like, well, their food doesn't taste good, or their people didn't treat me right, or they didn't do the same, like you said, consistent service. No, this happened to be the actual app this time, and so it was kind of just a different spin on uh a frustration point. But again, it wasn't their fault.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Well, and to to touch on that before we jump on to our next point, uh, it's funny because people do can see see consistency and they know it. Yeah. So when we when we had stopped in Missouri, um, I can't remember where we were, we stopped somewhere like halfway here, back home from Birmingham, and we pulled into a Chick-fil-A. You again, you could tell that they were just having, I mean, nothing horribly wrong, you know, but you could tell it's just not normal. Like there's a flow to them, right? Like, I can't explain it. You just know they're like a well-oiled machine. And um, you could tell the customers that are used to Chick-fil-A and the ones that weren't, because there was a gentleman there, he was very plot, he wasn't really he didn't know anything about like when they give you that little uh like when you go order and they give you that little like TP thing, or what I forgot what they call it, but it's got it's got like different food items on it. That's how they know, hey, this is Jim, this is whoever. And it was just funny because he, I think he you could tell he was getting a little frustrated because he was like, What's going on? Why is it taking so long? But he was asking questions like, What am I supposed to do with this? Is this is this how you guys know where my food is? Like, you know, it's me. And she was like, Yes, sir, we matched the it we match the icon to that we have on ours to yours, and we know this is your food. And so you could tell he was frustrated, but then the other people that you could tell they do it all the time, they were just like they're like, Yeah, this is normal. This is normal, and so they're they're consistent and they expect it, but the good thing in that is even the moments when you could tell they're struggling, customers were okay with it. Yeah, they were like, hey, this is not the if this was every time, that'd be different. Like, this is not the norm. Like, everybody has bad days, everybody makes mistakes, and you could tell that, and to me, I was thinking that while we were standing there, like they're in bed, and I was too. Like, I'm like, she was like, I'm so sorry that it's been like this. And I was like, No, you guys are fine. Like, hey, we've waited five minutes. That's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Like, you know, you know, you you mentioned Chick-fil-A, and you think about this. They really haven't changed their brand over the last however many years they've been in business. But what they have done is they've taken customer feedback. I'm I'm sure it's been in person. Yeah, they've probably had some surveys or whatever, but they've actually wrapped their parking lot. I mean, you'll see it again, sometimes three single lines deep, and and they have the same strategy. We're only gonna carve out this much, quote, square footage of a piece of land to put our building and people to be on. I mean, you could double the size of the parking lot, and it would probably be double the size of the line, you know. So to your point, they haven't really changed their brand. They haven't really they've used the marketing piece of the chicken sandwich and everything else to their advantage, but they really haven't rebranded anything, they've just gotten their service better.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Well, hey, listen, since everybody's telling a Chick-fil-A story, I'll go, I'll go with the Chick-fil-A store.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

If you're if you're in the uh uh the Birmingham market, I don't know if they have these in other markets, but in Inverness, there's a unique store that's a parking lot. And I went there the other day. I'd I had dropped my wife off at I think Cole's or something like that, and she was doing doing some shopping in there. And so I pulled in, I was just gonna get a drink, and I was like, where in the world is the drive-thru? There's no drive-thru. I know what he's talking about. I know what you're talking about. Like, where where in the world? So I there was no there was no sign. I mean, there were some signs, but you know, you're you're used to a certain thing, and I was like, I I don't really know what to do. So after after a few minutes, I kind of figured it out because there were some um parking spots with numbers in them. And I was like, okay, well, maybe I just need to go park in the parking spot, pull out my app, do the order, and then they'll bring the food out to me like Sonic. And that's what I ended up doing. But it was different because I'm used to one way like drive-thru, wrap around, like you guys were saying, and it there it was just different. So it kind of threw me off a little bit.

Change Must Reinforce Identity

SPEAKER_00 21:21

But yeah, that one, that one was actually because that's right down from the church, uh, yeah, right down the road. And uh we we eat out a lot with the girls, but it was actually created to help with the catering um surplus that they get. That's but they were like, hey, let's not just make a building just specifically for this, let's offer a little bit. Because they have they have just that, they have they have no drive-thru, but it's you order from the app, you go in, and then you can go in, but inside is very small. Like there's not a lot. Like we've gone in and sat and ate before church on a Wednesday. So, but it's just funny that they they've done that. But no, um, but you're talking about change and things because he ultimately this as we kind of wrap up this topic, uh, and I sh I I think I've told you guys this before. Look, to me, like you have to evolve. I think it's yeah, it's necessary in business, whether that's your operations, whether that's your marketing strategy, your social media strategy, your brand, you have to evolve because things change quick. And it just to continue to use Chick-fil-A, because apparently they have done it right, they have evolved. And I think you're right, Benji. They they've said, all right, you know, it's kind of like the data we look at. All right, where are our customers coming from? Where do we see the pressure points? Well, hey, it looks like like 60 or 70 percent of people eating here, they're going through a drive-thru, a pin-up, and leafing. Like it's no, you know, it's not as busy inside like it used to be. People are in a hurry. We live in a hurried culture. So they said, hey, we can still maintain our brand, but let's dial this in and involve and let's let's change the the pickup system to the point that they've invested money in covering where their employees are. Like you drive into a drive-thru, it's not just a drive-thru little bitty window. I mean, it's literally like this massive overhang. And then what's even cooler is they built doors into where the drive-thru is.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

Like you notice that. Like, so now when on their and what's great is it's multifunctional. During their slow times, you probably drive up to the same window, get your food, and go. Yeah, but on times when they're slammed, that sucker is opened up.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

They got two or three people out there cart.

SERVPRO’s Expanded One-Stop Promise

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And they evolved because ultimately this listeners, and this is just change is going to be necessary. Okay. Yeah. Customers' preferences, they shift, right? Like we saw that in our industry during COVID. Like, all right, hold on. We are a service industry. COVID is not going to stop people from having issues in their home. We had to figure out, all right, how do we stay multi-functional and still do these things? We had to evolve, not just from a branding standpoint, from an operation standpoint. We changed the methods, right? Like, Brady, you went through with your team and you shifted stag like staggering people coming in. Hey, let's limit the amount of people in the building. We have to be here. But then we also limited the amount of people in people's homes and how they were in people's homes. Um, you know, we had to evolve and do those because platforms, you know, they change and those those are the things. But in the end, whether you're changing processes, changing branding, changing marketing, change has to I has to reinforce your identity. Yeah, it can't replace it. If it replaces it, and again, just to go back to our case study, they made a change that did not reinforce their identity at all. Crackleberrel went through and they said, you know what, we feel like, and I I say that, they said, we not the people who purchase our product, that's right. We feel like we want to change these things. And and I I mean, it could have been a single, you know, uh CMO that said that, you know, the whoever, you know, I know the lady that was running it, but they chose to replace their identity and they didn't reinforce it, and that's where the backlash comes in. I mean, that's where they got hit hard.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, and I I tell you, and and I'm I would be willing to bet that their employees probably were not pushing for change either. They were they were probably questioning in their mind, why are we doing this? Um, and sometimes you gotta listen to your employees as well, they'll tell you.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Yep. Well, well, and think about think about the past couple years, just with what we've been through at SurPro. I feel like the identity has changed a lot. Like I feel like it's changed a lot, but it's reinforced who we are, right? We've had to look at the customer and say, all right, we've always said we're a one-stop shop. All right. So hey, we're gonna come here, we're gonna do the mitigation. Hey, our team can also handle the recon. That way we're working with one end. Well, not just that, but we can help with your roofing. Yeah, you know, we we can do we can do roofing. Like, hey, this is part of your process. You have a water damage, a lot of times it can come from having issues with a roof from above. So we have that. So we've added those things in. You know, we've added things in on how to how to really help businesses, you know, from a a you know, a large standpoint. So we've had to find ways to do that. And so that's where I feel like when you're looking at your branding, that's where that change it has to reinforce like who you are.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, good stuff, man.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Good stuff, yeah. So leave it to the marketing branding guy. Come on, Adam. Well, I can tell y'all being the branding person is the most stressful thing I've ever done.

Leader’s Checklist: Clarity, Consistency, Alignment

Books, Takeaways, and Closing CTA

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Well, look, and this as as we wrap this episode up, just a couple key questions. Um, Adam's mentioned this, but as a leader, who are we? Who are we trying to serve? What are we trying to expect? What do they expect from us as the company? And try to stay within that brand. Uh, maybe use your marketing advantage, marketing system to your advantage. Um, don't, again, don't start with anything that's trendy. Start with who you are and who your people are. Because your people matter. They're the ones that represent the brand behind what you've built and established. And if you're gonna refresh it, do it slowly, but got to keep your audience in mind. As he said, you know, cracker barrels, they're they're their mistake, let's just call it a mistake. Remind us of the power and the fragile, you know, the um the fragility of their branding. And um just make sure that your your brand is is yeah, sorry, fragility, my bad. Just make sure your brand is clear and consistent and it's aligned with your audience's identity. We've given you some key uh books you can you can take advantage of. Uh we've talked about building a story brand, Atomic Habits and Advantage by Patrick Lincioni as well. So look, without there with closing, I should say trends are going to come and go, but clarity, consistency, and alignment are what keeps strong brands for the long haul. We appreciate you tuning in today. As always, you can find us on any social platform out there at Higher Up Podcast. You can like and subscribe on YouTube. Uh, you can also find us and subscribe at higheruppodcast.com. Appreciate you listening in. As always, choose to go out and live a higher up life. See you next time.