CHILDLESS MEN: Dr Robin Hadley on the sorrow of men without children

Why do we never talk about involuntary male childlessness? A quarter of men do not have children and for many of them this is not through choice.   Join me as I sit down with my guest, Dr. Robin Hadley, academic and author of 'How is a Man Supposed to be a Man?'. We explore male childlessness,  the stereotypes that often stifle men's discussions about their yearning for parenthood and their struggles with fertility. With Dr. Hadley's expert insight, we navigate the emotional labyrinth faced by these men and tackle the societal norms that equate virility with fatherhood.

As our conversation unfolds, we turn the spotlight on the evolving perceptions of fatherhood. We delve into the pressures men face when considering paternity leave and the repercussions of the gig economy on their decision. We take a closer look at grandparenthood and its function as a social bridge for children in the absence of their parents. Moreover, we bring into focus the harsh reality of older adults without a support network or children to care for them and the uphill battle they face in society.

Finally, we discuss - the profound psychological impact of male infertility. We rip apart societal misconceptions that exacerbate the stigmas around male childlessness and infertility. Dr. Hadley emphasizes the critical need for therapy and the establishment of safe spaces for men to express their vulnerability. So, tune in as we break barriers, challenge conventional wisdom, and underscore the significance of understanding and empathising with the emotional challenges encountered by childless men.


#MaleChildlessnes #Infertility #ParenthoodStruggles #DrRobinHadley #FatherhoodPerceptions #EmotionalChallenges #MensHealth #Stereotypes #SupportNetworks #TherapyForMen #InvoluntaryChildlessness #FertilityJourney #PaternityLeave #GigEconomyImpact #Grandparenthood #SupportingChildlessMen #SocialNorms #MentalHealthMatters #BreakingStigmas #SafeSpacesForMen #UnderstandingEmotions #ChallengingSocietalExpectations #MaleInfertility #EmpathyMatters #MenTalkParenthood #bbc #bbcnews #gmb #skynews  #worldchildlessweek #babies

Regenerate

Transcript

Angela Walker: 0:04

Childless men are disenfranchised and overlooked by society. That's according to my guest today. The UK has an ageing population. In future, there will be more older people and a higher proportion of them will be childless. Many of them would have liked to have had children, but circumstances or infertility have left them without. I'm journalist Angela Walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss under-reported issues. My guest today is Dr Robin Hadley, academic and author of the book how is a man Supposed to be a man? Thanks for joining me, robin.

Dr Robin Hadley: 0:43

Thanks for inviting me on. I'm looking forward to having this really good chat with you.

Angela Walker: 0:48

No problem. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you today because I came across some of your work on the internet and I thought it was fascinating, because male childlessness is just not really something that we talk about very often. I mean, I can't remember ever reading or hearing much about it, so how is it that you first started researching male childlessness?

Dr Robin Hadley: 1:12

For one thing, men are fascinating and one of the things about they're so fascinating is there's so little round about their own experience and how they feel. How I came to research them, I was training as a counsellor and took the MA option because as counselling, you have to do something you experienced and I was really broody in my 30s when all my friends and colleagues were producing babies and I wasn't. And I was terribly jealous particularly a one colleague who was very close to when he became a dad, and I couldn't verbalise that. The only thing I could do was really avoid him, which I did successfully for a while. And so when I was looking for a subject for my MA dissertation, I said that I was really broody my 30s and my supervisor said you know, I've never heard anything about it, do that.

Dr Robin Hadley: 2:10

From that I realised there was nothing around the male experience about wanting to become a parent, to become a dad, and I wondered why that was. Because there's quite a lot around women and feminism and feminist scholars do an awful lot around that, but on the opposite side or adjacent to it is very little around men, and part of the reason for me looking into it was was I the only one who felt so broody, so broody I couldn't really speak about it. But part of that is that there's no narratives for me to occupy as a man around being broody and wanting to be a dad, sort of out there in an intimate relationship, I think men talk where it's very safe, but not really out down the pub or at work or anything like that. So that's why I became really interested in men and the desire for fatherhood.

Angela Walker: 3:12

Why don't we talk about it? Why don't men talk about their desire to become a dad and that they feel like they're missing the boat? Is it to do with a social stigma? Is it a cultural issue? What do you think?

Dr Robin Hadley: 3:26

I think it is cultural, very much cultural and social. Men are, boys, are socialised to be sort of outside themselves, do activities and not to feel that sort of stand down. I don't think it's quite as bad as it was, but again, it depends on your social, cultural environment. But it's still there and the lying level and so if you're sort of brought up in condition not to verbalise your feelings but to do actions instead, then it's very difficult to talk about it and men are sort of socialised not to be vulnerable and if I'm saying no, I really want to be a dad, I want to be nurturing and caring. That's not a discourse, a narrative that's really appreciated in Western societies. Particularly Marcia Inhorn is just done a book called Motherhoon on Ice, and she points out to Middle Eastern countries where the family unit is very strong and there's a very much strong narrative around men being fathers and being caring, involved fathers, and so the Western narrative is just catching up on, just on that little bit.

Angela Walker: 4:45

Do you think we still have this thing where men are expected to be macho and that we kind of talk about? When we talk about spinsters, we think about women who weren't able to have children, but when we talk about bachelors, that has different connotations, doesn't it? You think about bachelor pads and men being free and single and happily doing their own thing and being one of the boys. And I've been thinking about this a lot lately and it's just such a weird divide that we have that we assume that a woman who hasn't had children wanted them but didn't have the chance, but there's more of an assumption that a man might have chosen not to. Do you think that's a fair assessment?

Dr Robin Hadley: 5:33

It is a fair assessment. And the other thing in there is the myth that men are fertile from puberty till death, fully fertile and they can father a child at any time, whereas women are dictated by the biological clock and the social clock. We're all dictated by a social clock. All societies have a preferred time period when you're supposed to be a parent? Too early, that's not too good. Too late, that's not too good either, although that bit's changing a bit with IBF coming through. So that myth around men being fully fertile disenfranchises men from it. Because you're pushed away, Well, you can have a kid at any time.

Dr Robin Hadley: 6:13

The other part of the myth, social narrative myth, is men aren't bothered, but men are bothered. So what is it about society that wants to focus on women and nurturing and put women in that nurturing motherhood box? Or is it because a men aren't supposed to be vulnerable so it's easier then to say oh well, you're always fertile and sperm declines in efficiency from around about 35 years of age. So if you want to become a sperm donor, most clinics won't upset men older than 35, sometimes even older than 30, because of that decline in sperm efficacy. The older father thing you'll often get Rod Stewart, Charlie Chaplin, Robert De Niro, I think just recently has become an older father.

Dr Robin Hadley: 7:10

But these are quite elites of men and for the average chap becoming a father at 70 or 60 would be quite unusual and, depending on the social, cultural environment, probably not greeted with the same acceptance or joy around it.

Angela Walker: 7:37

And is it interesting what you said about women? Because I got married in my 30s and from the moment I got married, people kept saying oh the clock's ticking, angie, if you want kids, you better get your skates on. And I think, yeah, there is that assumption that men will be fertile for longer. So, and I found that really uncomfortable because nobody knows what's going on in your life. If you've decided that you want to wait to have children, or if you've got fertility issues, obviously it's nobody's business, but people do still ask and, of course, conversely, there are plenty of women who don't want children, but then they face this constant kind of questioning about when, when they're going to do that. And so what's it like for men who would like children but for you know, circumstances or even infertility haven't been able to? What's it like? You mentioned earlier that you found it really hard amongst your colleagues. Just just tell us the effect it had on your life, robin.

Dr Robin Hadley: 8:55

Circumstances are really important word here in why people don't fulfill their fertility ambitions Big circumstances, economics and changing economics. People want to do that macho thing of being secure, a roof over the head, food coming in, that sort of thing. So quite often they suspend their fertility ideals because of that. And one thing about student loans in America and probably come through here is that's going to be an issue for them. But as a man I speak for myself, can't speak for all men. But hard to go. I expected to be a dad. My parents said sort of I know when I was 12 or something there was an argument and said they refused me something. And they said well, when you're a parent, you're going to have to make these tough decisions as well. And that's I think all the men I've spoken to have said the same thing. There was this arc of life. You know I was going to leave school. If you work in class, leave school, get a job, get married, have a family. And that's the top of that arc of life For the middle class. It was leave school, go to university, get a job, have a family.

Dr Robin Hadley: 10:16

In my 20s I got married and I was on sort of track with everybody else and we started trying for kids. But then we split up. So by my late 20s I was divorced and living alone and the interest rates went up which is very current at the moment and I couldn't go out for like two years because just paying off the mortgage and that was a key to two, three years really of where you're not socialized. And in my mid 30s I found another partner and we got on really well and she said to me I want to have your babies. But then we split up, so timing of relationship starting and ending, circumstances of the mending and the partner you pick. And then I met my wife and she's older and she said you know, I really want to have kids in my mid 30s, but now because she's a medical professional, so I don't want to risk being an older mother and what that means for my health and also any baby. So if you want to be a dad you can have to find somebody else.

Dr Robin Hadley: 11:27

And because I was really broody I really was it was like a big dark cloud hanging over. Now all I could see was other people reproducing quite easily and it can be annoying if somebody think, wow, do you? How are you being a parent and I'm not. So it affected me mood-wise. I already was miserable about it, so I was depressed. I was anxious as angry for sure. I think frustration is a big thing because it's the ideal and there's where you're at and that gap and how do you get there? So for me it was in my late 30s. How would I find somebody else? I know I've got a woman I love. That element of my life is great. It's just this part, it's cherry on the cake. That's a lot of people call it.

Angela Walker: 12:25

Do you think you felt cheated out of the life that you'd expected to lead?

Dr Robin Hadley: 12:34

hmm, that's a good question and certainly a lot of people do feel that. I think it depends at the time, so I wouldn't. I thought I wouldn't say cheated, but there's something around that.

Angela Walker: 12:50

Maybe, maybe because your situation was circumstantial and I may be, for somebody who hasn't become a parent because of infertility, that's, yeah, slightly different, because they've, you know they've. They're in a situation where they feel like their bodies let them down yes, and sometimes it's the genetics of let them down.

Dr Robin Hadley: 13:14

Within that there's another angle to it in that people who've diagnosed with some form of infertility actually well, I know what's the issue is. It was that time when I didn't know when we were trying. And for the women that's quite an invasive procedure infertility treatment and quite often involves loss, miscarriage, early pregnancy loss as well. So there's a lot going on there. But actually to find out right, it's me I know now why we can have kids. I can move on. Other people can't. And sometimes in some societies, although it's the man, the woman will claim that it's her infertility to protect him. But also it's sort of more acceptable and understandable for women around that element.

Dr Robin Hadley: 14:16

For people go through infertility treatment and it's undiagnosed, which is we're not quite sure. There doesn't seem to be anything particularly wrong. Some of your levels on a hormone maybe slightly low or this slightly acidic. Here I won't go into biological details because not a biologist, I don't want to upset anybody by saying the wrong thing but there's little balances and a little bit low. This isn't quite right, but it's not wrong either and we can't see and that can be very upsetting because actually the question is not answered. Why can't I have children? It's an unknown on on the element. So some people definitely feel cheated. Actually, I deserve this, and it can lead to depression, antisocial behavior, risky behaviors, risky, all that sort of thing as you people try to come to terms with it.

Angela Walker: 15:18

How do you think our society views men without children?

Dr Robin Hadley: 15:24

The assumptions people make are usually to put people other people into neat boxes. So, yes, you're not a parent, fine, you've got all the freedom in the world. Then you can do whatever you want. That's a nice box. I don't have to worry about you because you're okay. I can focus on for me. For men, because there's no social narrative, as compared to women, around reproduction, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. Some women don't reproduce and they're seen as career orientated or there's sympathy because they haven't had the joys of motherhood. But for men, there's not the same social narrative. You're just a bachelor having a great time or you're a bit strange.

Angela Walker: 16:15

There's that man about town, kind of thing, isn't there?

Dr Robin Hadley: 16:21

And then there's a class thing in that you know, if you're a man about town these days, you've got to be quite substantially well off to rent property, to have all those things to buy into that enjoyment. When it comes to reproduction, then women tend to go slightly higher in their class, or a lot higher, but don't go down, whereas men go everywhere.

Angela Walker: 16:48

really, it's interesting.

Dr Robin Hadley: 16:51

So working class men, particularly if you're not got great educational qualifications, tend to be more likely to be childless. If this goes for men and women, if your early years experience wasn't great and you've got anxious attachment, which means when you form a relationship you're always a bit worried what's going to happen and sometimes you can be sort of overloving and smothering because what you fear is that relationship's going to end or you're like I was. I was terribly shy and worried that I'd get rejected so I didn't engage. It took a long time for me to work up the social skills to do that and again, that links to timing. So for men there's not a lot of social narrative around there.

Dr Robin Hadley: 17:50

For older men, there's a lot around older women being viewed as being old, and that was a terrible thing. You've got to retain the youth element. There's a certain dynamic coming through for men on the same thing, but for older men it's really you're seen as a bit of a threat. A lot of the men in fact all the men I spoke to feared being seen a pedophile and also you're portrayed as not being virile as you're older. So the same could be said around women and the men are post. You're losing your virility as such, and maybe that's how society measures us. We're measured by our virility. Women are measured by the internal virility, by becoming a mother, nurturing nature, all that sort of thing, and men are judged by their external virility.

Angela Walker: 18:50

We put such an emphasis on young age, don't we? When I was pregnant, I was in my late 30s and then again in my early 40s, and I was a geriatric mother, which I absolutely hated, and I was thinking well, I'm actually a very fit and healthy person, so I did begrudge that. I mean, certainly, as we get older, I feel less valued by society than I did 10 years ago, and people do look at you in a different way, even though you bring along this wisdom that you never had before. So that's like a terrible indictment of our society, isn't it that we seem to really not value age.

Dr Robin Hadley: 19:41

And experience. Yeah, geriatric mother is such a terrible term and I guess that came from the medical side of thing. But if you compare that to the narrative around men, oh, you're fertile, or?

Angela Walker: 19:56

you're life.

Dr Robin Hadley: 19:58

It just reinforces the difference between men and women. I guess it's a terrible term.

Angela Walker: 20:09

It's awful, we don't hear about geriatric fathers. No.

Dr Robin Hadley: 20:14

The names. I said earlier about these quite rich fellas becoming fathers. They're not geriatric fathers.

Dr Robin Hadley: 20:22

Everybody goes oh, look at him, look how virile he might be really, agey but he's managed to be of the dad again, kind of thing, yeah he's virile and that's an easy box to put men in but also virile, not vulnerable. So for men it's really hard to talk about not being a dad when you wanted to be a dad and there's a biological urge to be a dad. That's not often said. Biological urges are usually associated with women, but we're biological beings whatever our sex. And some people have strong biological urges, others don't. There's a variety, and most people are in the middle.

Angela Walker: 21:09

Yeah, it's interesting, but do you think that's because of society? We think of men as being highly sexed and they're there for the sex and reproductive side, and whereas the women we assume are there for the nurturing, mothering side. And I know that that's true for some people, but it's not true for everybody, especially in this day and age.

Dr Robin Hadley: 21:34

Absolutely with the change in societies. It's not true for everybody and even in, I know, stone Age times there were, probably there's still some people who didn't want to become parents but were either forced to or just didn't become parents. Yeah, it's very, very interesting the social narratives that are available and why we can't see men as vulnerable as wanting to nurture, and what's the benefit to society for that. Most societies at some point have been warlike and in war it's usually men that go off and do things, and as a form of protection for the women who are the bearers of the next generation.

Angela Walker: 22:24

Do you think things are changing a bit? I mean, now we're seeing more parental leave being split and paternal leave and Dad's had the opportunity of being at home in the early days for several weeks, even a few months, and that's relatively a new thing. Do you think things are moving in the right direction? Because now it seems to be a bit more accepted that Dad would be more hands-on with a newborn, whereas it used to be that mum would be giving birth and the Dad would be down the pub, you know. And now things have really changed and now the Dads do have a more supportive role.

Dr Robin Hadley: 23:06

Things have changed and yes, that was, excuse me, I think. In the 70s a socialist and I think an obstetrician did a study and it was very hard for even the male gynecologist to go on the maternity ward and that although women wanting to be in the pub or they kept out of that area because it was women's business and also the women. So I think there's more to it, but again, men were interested and our interests wanted to be involved. But again, the social narratives and the social pressures, economic pressures. I mean, parenthood is not easy and you don't get much training for it. Really, I don't know, I'm not a parent, but this is what I gather. It's on-the-job training quite a lot of the time and it's quite stressful. So, yes, men want to be there.

Dr Robin Hadley: 24:13

But is the policies in place? Can you afford to do that? Can you afford to take paternity leave? And although it is improving, it's not as good as it is in the Nordic countries, for example, where it's 50-50 split and so a father can take quite a chunk off and the mother can go to work. That's an element, I think. So I think some data is as well, that men tend to go back earlier than the leave allows. Sometimes that's due to pressure from employers. Sometimes it's actually we need money and I can provide.

Dr Robin Hadley: 24:57

I can care through provision, by providing money so we can buy whatever and all that sort of thing. It is changing depends on the employer and the economic situation. Because with the gig economy now, where you're on short-term contracts, maybe great. If you're on a good salary and in a specialist job where you can Say right, I'll work for six months, I'll take you a year out and then I'll come back in and it'll be fine. They're quite far in-between.

Dr Robin Hadley: 25:35

If you're a delivery driver, for example, in a short-term contract can you afford to take six months off, or will you get another job when you get back? All that sort of thing. So it's tricky. There's a way to go?

Angela Walker: 25:52

Yeah, definitely a way to go, definitely needs.

Dr Robin Hadley: 25:54

I think all the evidence points to having two parents looking after a child is better for the child.

Angela Walker: 26:03

And I think if we change our outlook when it comes to the way that we think about dads, when and paternity leave, then that would change the way that we think about men and childlessness as well, because there will be more of an acceptance of the role that men can have with babies and in the family if we accept that men are emotional beings as well.

Dr Robin Hadley: 26:32

Absolutely and certainly. I saw once with you where the health visitors were encouraging the men to put the babies on their bare skin, bare skin. Skin to skin, yeah, skin to skin and how that impacted on both baby and the father to get that bonding going and there's certainly some studies that say there's a neurological change in fathers and they become more empathic- and more emotional and sensitive through becoming a father.

Dr Robin Hadley: 27:06

When it comes to becoming a father, it gives you a social narrative to occupy. So when we were talking about bachelor's compared to similar age fathers, the fathers could say you know, my role's changed. Now I've got responsibilities at home, I can't be going out doing all that sort of thing. So in my mid 30s, when all my colleagues and peers were mainly at home, I was going out, but with basically a generation before me and you're not fitting in with your peer group and you're not quite fitting in with an earlier generation either. So that's really interesting around fatherhood and what it brings to you. And also grandparenthood is becoming more and more important now when it comes to childcare and a lot of older people look forward to becoming a grandparent and becoming involved. And certainly I think some men say you know, I can be different with my grandchild than I can with my own children because the stress is off.

Dr Robin Hadley: 28:24

I'm not trying to keep a roof over our head, bring money in or that sort of thing, and that's another absence from my life.

Dr Robin Hadley: 28:35

So, one of the things from social media Facebook tends to be older people on Facebook is the amount of things they're doing with their kids and their grandchildren and all that sort of thing. And I think one of the things we can talk about when I'm saying lack of narrative is a thing called disenfranchised grief, which is a loss that's not recognised. And when we say there's no narratives for men and why there's no nothing talked about, that's part of the disenfranchisement, because it's not recognised. Get over with it. You know you're lucky. You can have my kids. Really, I can have your kids. What would you do? So? In the film Back to the Future, he's holding the picture, isn't he? And all the people are disappearing round him as chime changes. So if you want somebody to look at, you think your kids are a burden to you. Look at a picture of you and them. And what would it be like if those kids weren't there, because kids are social bridges to schools, doctors, but locally as well.

Dr Robin Hadley: 29:47

So on our street every now and then you'll see kids walk down to somebody else's house to have a party and the parents are behind them.

Angela Walker: 29:55

Sure sure.

Dr Robin Hadley: 29:56

And we're not there, we're not invited because we don't have kids. It's a club we can't join and all clubs have rules and all clubs keep some people out.

Angela Walker: 30:10

That's really sad to hear. Actually it makes me feel quite sad when I think about it. The you know the loss not just of the children that you would have liked to have had, but of the possible grandchildren and the other social connections. Yeah, I'm sorry to hear about that. Let's talk about I know you mentioned in some of your books about childless men and overlooked when it comes to national statistics and things like that. Tell me a bit about that. What do you mean by that and what are the implications?

Dr Robin Hadley: 30:48

OK, well, we have a really good idea of how many childless women there are, because when a child's born, the mother's fertility history is taken, so we know how many women have had children, we know how many children they've had, but the father's fertility history isn't taken and because that date is not collected it hasn't been collected it's very hard to know the level of childlessness for men. So there's some studies, but few and far between really, and there's probably more childless men than there are childless women. So around about in the UK at the moment, 20% of women are childless and it's around about 25% of men, so that's quite a big difference. What that means is, in the future we won't know how many childless people there are In 2030, there's going to be probably around over 2 million over 65-year-olds who are childless, and that's age is important. That's going to grow with the baby boomer going through and also the growing amount of childless people there are.

Dr Robin Hadley: 32:02

And it's important because when it comes to health and social care, it's absolutely reliant on adult children to be involved to a greater or lesser extent. Now, as an adult child, you may not want to be involved and your parent may not want you to be involved, but the system is set up, that you will be involved, and I think, as we all know in the UK, the social care system is a real kind of worms Just from the outside. Once you get involved with it, it can be really, really complex and if you don't have somebody there to sort of represent you, just to share how you're going through things, it can be very, very difficult.

Angela Walker: 32:52

Well and someone to advocate for you.

Dr Robin Hadley: 32:55

Absolutely. What we can say from studies is that an older parent will be taken into care at a much higher level of illness and be there for a shorter time than the equivalent childless person because of that reliance on adult children. So you may be living solo, or even a couple, but childless, and something happens to one of you. What's going to happen? Who's going to bring shopping in? Who's going to, as you say, advocate, contact the doctor when you're in hospital? Who's going to be your next kin?

Dr Robin Hadley: 33:42

There was a report a few years ago from Sheffield where a woman had become was a hundred and they had a birthday party for her, but she'd been in residential care for 17 years. She was childless, and that's the way of family. And the person who signed that off was a niece she'd never even met and gosh and there's a lot to that. And if you think about COVID and the care homes where those pictures of family members outside or on iPads allow, at least 30% of members of those institutions were childless. So who was connecting with them? Where was their social contact?

Angela Walker: 34:25

I think that's interesting, not just about childlessness, but about society in general, because we don't have this village feel now, this village mentality, and I know that's something that we feel as a family. We're all spread out a lot more now, aren't we? And it starts from, you know, people who've got small children who don't have a support network, and it filters all the way through to older people who don't have a support network and I think that's, you know, that's just an illustration of the way that a society has gone. Now we're also spread out and focused on different things. We don't focus so much on family these days, certainly in this country, I think.

Dr Robin Hadley: 35:13

And you can be a parent and still be de facto childless, if they're on the other side of the world. And you know, families are funny, families are dynamic and there's always shifts and balances in them. People fall out, parents fall out with each other, with their children, children fall out with each other, fall out with their parents, and so you can be childhood, older and still, in fact, be childless. So there was a study, a couple of studies, by the ONS, the Office for National Statistics, reporting that in 2045 there's going to be something like a 30% increase of childless women aged 80 and over, but there was no equivalent for men, and what they pointed out was we need to improve our facilities, the care facilities and the health facilities, to account for this change in demographics. So rooms will be put on equipment we brought in, but there will also be an increase in childless men.

Dr Robin Hadley: 36:23

But they're not counted. They're not in that state, and so that's why it's important that we count childlessness. As you get older, things start to fail, just a natural thing. We become more vulnerable and we are going to need support, and that's just a natural thing. However much doing exercise, changing your diet will help you At some point, your body will let you know.

Angela Walker: 36:59

You won't live forever, will we?

Dr Robin Hadley: 37:01

No.

Angela Walker: 37:02

And it's that quality of life on that pathway. So, through your research and I mean you've written so many papers and books and documents and things about it what are you hoping to achieve ultimately?

Dr Robin Hadley: 37:17

I really want to put actually men are childless too. Men feel men are vulnerable and I know quite a lot of campaigns say just talk to men. It's not the talking, it's listening. You're a very good listener, but it's a skill to listen and reflect back. It's not just hearing, it's listening and actually hearing what the people say, in the gaps between the words, their meaning.

Dr Robin Hadley: 37:52

And if we have no social narrative around childlessness and men and the bits that we have aren't really recognizing a growing population, then that needs to be corrected, it needs to be acknowledged.

Dr Robin Hadley: 38:09

I think that's going to be a benefit, men and women, if we just understand.

Dr Robin Hadley: 38:13

Actually, you know, we're all human and we're all vulnerable and we're all a bit frail and we all can be frustrated in not achieving the ideals that are given to us.

Dr Robin Hadley: 38:28

So just very quickly, a couple of years ago, some guys I used to work with and I worked in the universities, the technician got in touch with me and they were in late 30s, early 40s and they were both profs. They've done really, really well and they both had become dads and I said you know, I didn't know what was missing and so I became a dad. So these were successful men, but there was something missing and the key word there, the key words are something missing, because the chance men I spoke to have always said there's something missing and it's that something missing, and the thing that's missing is a narrative, are the words, the stories to put into that gap. So there's something missing inside, emotionally bonding wise, but there's also something missing outside, in society, that actually there's nothing for me to grab hold of, to frame my experience with, and that's what words do they give us a framework to live life, the framework for life?

Angela Walker: 39:33

Do you think that men need to be more open about their feelings about wanting to be parents? I mean, when not before I have my children I had a yearning for children. It was like a physical feeling that I just wanted a baby and I think societies was very accepting of that. I talked about it with my friends when other people were having babies. I felt really sad for myself that I wasn't in that position and there were some people who were getting pregnant, who didn't really want to be pregnant, and there was some really like awful feelings around resentment and stuff like that and as a woman that was just quite accepted. I think Like, but I don't think that is there for men. The support isn't there. Are there support groups? Do we need support groups for people in that situation or do we just need to reframe the way that we look at men as a society and can we do that, do you think?

Dr Robin Hadley: 40:39

I had a yearning to be a dad as well, but I didn't have that social narrative to occupy. Would it just, I think, in a group setting just being a laughter or absolutely not appropriate to be saying that in a group of just general men. So hopefully this sort of thing. People realize that men are vulnerable and they want to be farthest. There are a lot more groups now coming forward to help many mental health and in one of my studies I found the men were as broody as women.

Dr Robin Hadley: 41:24

Another big myth is that women are broody and men aren't bothered. But actually my study I found out is round about the same and that's sort of based goes through with back to the biology. But also the men were more depressed, more angry and more jealous than the women. But that's kept inside and it may be more provisional for all men to say well, you know, I'm really yearning, I feel jealous because X has had a baby and I want a baby so much.

Dr Robin Hadley: 41:56

But for a man to say that, however, yes, there are more support groups being put out there for men generally around mental health and health and that's good and I think they're interested in acknowledging that actually not becoming a dad will be there and there are one or two sort of Facebook groups around, certainly one around infertility men going through infertility treatment and there's one for the childless men's community of face close Facebook group. That's there, I think, for men, because they're so socialized not to reveal themselves. It's very difficult. So some studies about hospital treatments find that on bulletin boards or support group boards the women stay around for a long, long time. For men, they come in, they want their information and then they go. So I think if you're doing that sort of support group thing you've got to appreciate it's going to be a big tune.

Angela Walker: 43:02

I think we've got such a long way to go. We talk about equality between the sexes, but really it's 2023. And it feels like we're so far apart when it comes to that, and I think one of the sad realities is that we're just still not as accepting of men's feelings. We still expect men to be macho and not talk about how they're feeling, and you know, when it comes to infertility, there's a stigma around that. Isn't there as well? Because we put so much on being virile and macho, and so I mean it must be very hard for a man to be infertile.

Dr Robin Hadley: 43:50

Absolutely. It's a core concept of self that I will refuse in the future. And I am virile, and then that's reinforced by the virility outside the self, and it's really interesting that sperm is one of the very few cells that can survive for any length of time outside the body, and so sperm exists outside the body and men exist outside their body. Women exist biologically inside their body and all that nurturing and all the things around women are round about inside the body and that's just an interesting thing to me. An observation, let's say but yes, absolutely. For men who go through infertility treatment are infertile, then it's a big challenge to their sense of self, because we all nobody questions their virility unless there's a reason to do that when you're used to assume to be fully fertile.

Dr Robin Hadley: 44:57

So when it comes to you that actually you're not, then that's a real knock on who you are and how you think of your concepts of yourself. And part of that, depending on which social cultural environment you're in, is what will other people think of me and what are the social narratives around that? So a couple of studies from South Africa. One was titled you are not a man if you're not a father. And while some societies are over and it's out there for that, others I think that the Western societies it's covert so it's not really said, but deep down it's there.

Angela Walker: 45:43

How do you see the situation changing in future?

Dr Robin Hadley: 45:48

I think it's positive actually because I think there's a lot more information around for everything but around reproduction and I think what I see of younger people and younger men, they're much more interested, much more in tune and they want to find out. I know there's a lot of negativity around younger men, but actually you talk to a young man and they're intelligent, they're socially and emotionally aware. Again, you've got to be careful where you do it and to make sure it's safe. This is a big thing about men is it's safe for them to reveal themselves and to be open around what's making them vulnerable?

Angela Walker: 46:42

It struck me when you said about you couldn't talk about how you felt, about your longing for children, in case you were laughed at. I thought that was so sad.

Dr Robin Hadley: 46:52

Yeah, and quite often it's not unknown. If an infertile man does say something that other men will say oh well, you're a jaffa, I'll come round because I've got three kids, so my sperm's great. Why do men occupy those narratives is because not reproducing is such a threat that a society doesn't really cope with it very well. And if society didn't cope with it very well, how are individuals who draw their framework from society supposed to cope?

Angela Walker: 47:37

What do you mean when you say not reproducing is a threat?

Dr Robin Hadley: 47:42

Well, it's a threat because we're supposed to be fully fertile and we're supposed to be virile and one of the highest status marks is becoming a parent, for a mother and for a father. There's certain rights and statuses that go built in with that. So you can have maternity, paternity leave, you can take time off Companies do do family days. So I was working on a project last year at Manchester Metropolitan University on complex fertility journeys and how people dealt with work while going through IVA Treatment and it was very emotional.

Dr Robin Hadley: 48:32

Some of the stories we heard you know photocopies of babies by photographs of babies by the photocopier or pinned on a notice board, or emails coming around saying so and so is pregnant, so and so has had a baby. Babies being brought in and in Kobe, babies being brought in the onto the zoom meetings. I just reinforcing I'm not where I think I should be. So it's an existential threat and a very big level. It's an existential threat to the species because all species want to reproduce, want to bring in the next generation. It's a core thing that may not be verbalised, but it's inside us.

Angela Walker: 49:20

Being a childless man has shaped so much of your life, robin, but how do you feel about it now?

Dr Robin Hadley: 49:27

In a way my research is my baby, I guess, and that has been. I developed and grew it and it's out in the world. How do I fit? It comes and goes. Now I've got a narrative I can draw on. Research I can say does this?

Dr Robin Hadley: 49:44

I understand why I'm childless. It was circumstances for me. I may be infertile never a test, but the majority of the time it's as a resume is circumstances and I can pass that knowledge on. So that's a good thing. But so the house next door has got some younger kids and they've got a trampoline in the garden and can hear their screams and chat and life. And that's beautiful for me, to hear the kids enjoying themselves and being there. But it's also a bittersweet thing because they're not my kids. I won't be in that garden, I won't be providing for them and it won't be my grandkids either doing that. So for me it's bittersweet and I can go there anytime I want. But I also can go and say well, I know why that's happened and I think this is one of the things for me knowing why you are and how you got there and the circumstances around it helps be in the modern world.

Angela Walker: 51:02

And if there's anyone listening, if there are any men listening and they would like to support, where would you direct them? For that?

Dr Robin Hadley: 51:11

I would direct them to the Childhood Men's Community on Facebook. I would go to Andy's Man's Club Samaritans. Just look around your local area. There are support for men generally about mental health and physical health and you can go and just draw on those things for yourself. Therapy is a great thing. All the way through my well, obviously, I trained as a counsellor, but also all the way through my PhD, I went to therapy to help me understand, and that can be really really good. I want to one in a safe environment. I knew it was safe. I can be vulnerable and I can be vulnerable here because I know what it's about. I know that me being vulnerable enables other men to be vulnerable and what I expect is they won't go. You know you can say, well, look at him, he does this and the expector can say, yeah, but that's not me. But that's the beginning. What is you? Then? You can build on that.

Angela Walker: 52:25

And what it sounds to me like reaching out is key, and reaching out in the right way to the right people in a safe space would be the thing to do. Robin, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really fascinating, and I wish you all the best with the rest of your studies, and I'd like to keep in touch and to find out more about what you're up to in the future.

Dr Robin Hadley: 52:50

Well, thank you, it's been really enjoyable and I look forward to keeping in touch.

Angela Walker: 52:55

I'm Angela Walker and I've been in conversation with Dr Robin Hadley. I hope you've enjoyed the show. If you have, please leave a review and subscribe. It really helps, and for more information, you can check out my website, angelawalkerreportscom.