More than half of mothers have experienced physical or psychological birth trauma leading them less likely to have more children because of their experience of maternity care. That's according to a study by Mumsnet instigated by Conservative MP Theo Clarke. She has founded an all-party parliamentary group on birth trauma to advocate for change following her own harrowing experience during childbirth, where she faced a third-degree tear and emergency surgery.
In this episode I sit down with a courageous couple, Angelisa and Veneline Nikolov, who openly share their emotional journey through birth trauma. We also engage in a compelling discussion with Kim Thomas from the Birth Trauma Association, and I share my own experiences of birth trauma including a complication called shoulder dystocia which left me and my newborn with serious injuries.
We delve into the profound impact of childbirth trauma on women's mental health, exploring the flashbacks, physical and mental injuries, guilt, and isolation that can follow. Angelisa and Veneline's candid stories emphasize the critical need for empathy and support for those who have experienced birth trauma.
We talk about the attitude of health care workers and our feeling of failure after our traumatic births -and what can be done to help people who suffer from birth trauma and how the system can be improved.
Tune in as we explore these crucial issues and call for a more compassionate approach to childbirth and improved maternity care for all women.
https://www.angelawalkerreports.com/
More than half of mothers have experienced physical or psychological birth trauma leading them less likely to have more children because of their experience of maternity care. That's according to a study by Mumsnet instigated by Conservative MP Theo Clarke. She has founded an all-party parliamentary group on birth trauma to advocate for change following her own harrowing experience during childbirth, where she faced a third-degree tear and emergency surgery.
In this episode I sit down with a courageous couple, Angelisa and Veneline Nikolov, who openly share their emotional journey through birth trauma. We also engage in a compelling discussion with Kim Thomas from the Birth Trauma Association, and I share my own experiences of birth trauma including a complication called shoulder dystocia which left me and my newborn with serious injuries.
We delve into the profound impact of childbirth trauma on women's mental health, exploring the flashbacks, physical and mental injuries, guilt, and isolation that can follow. Angelisa and Veneline's candid stories emphasize the critical need for empathy and support for those who have experienced birth trauma.
We talk about the attitude of health care workers and our feeling of failure after our traumatic births -and what can be done to help people who suffer from birth trauma and how the system can be improved.
Tune in as we explore these crucial issues and call for a more compassionate approach to childbirth and improved maternity care for all women.
https://www.angelawalkerreports.com/
30,000 women and around 7,000 men suffer post-traumatic stress disorder every year after having or witnessing a traumatic birth, and those are just the reported figures. The real number's probably much higher. I'm journalist Angela Walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss under reported issues. My guests today are Kim Thomas from the Birth Trauma Association, and Venelin and Angelisa Nikolov, who both suffered post-traumatic stress after the birth of their daughter. Thank you so much for joining me, kim. I want to talk to you in a minute about the work you do and your findings to do with birth trauma, but first I'd like to hear Angelisa and Venelin's story. So thank you for sharing your story with us today. Angelisa and Venelin, thank you. First of all, can you tell us about your daughter? I think it's her birthday this month. Is that right?
Venelin Nikolov:Yes, so her birthday is going to be on Saturday. In about three days from today, she's turning two, and I mean she's a lovely, lovely child which we love very much, even though the experience that we had with having her was not the most amazing or what we imagined. Everything turned out well at the end and she's healthy and well. Angelisa, too.
Angela Walker:So, Angelisa, before we get on to the actual birth experience itself, how was your pregnancy?
Angelisa Nikolova:Oh, the most amazing experience. I had it was just the perfect pregnancy. I loved it a bit of it.
Angela Walker:And so I know, when we're pregnant, we're asked to draw up a birth plan and I guess, as a couple, that's something that you sat down and did together. What was involved with your birth plan? What were you hoping your birth would be like?
Angelisa Nikolova:I was planning on a water birth to have this safe space with silence, some music, some things a lot of crystals, this kind of stuff. So I wanted something like that - out that, nothing, completely zero.
Angela Walker:So what happened on the day that you went into labour? Can you talk us through that? Because, I tell you, the day when I went into labour is etched in my head. It's something you really remember, isn't it? So what was it like for you?
Angelisa Nikolova:Well, for me it was a slow start. One of the membranes broke and I was like I think my water broke, but it's not the full water. I didn't want to call the hospital at first because I wanted to take my time, to give my body and the baby time in order for things to get going. I didn't have contractions then and that was Monday morning. After the whole day I still didn't have any contractions, and then we decided to call in for a check. And that's when my mindset broke a little bit, because as we went in for a check, the stuff was lovely.
Angelisa Nikolova:We went in a different department of the maternity ward, so it was a lot, very easy and lovely people, dark, so it was very, very welcoming. But then they told me if I didn't get any contractions within 12 hours, I had to be induced. So my dream of water birth was already gone in that moment. So, yeah, they sent us home and then obviously I didn't sleep. So I think things would have gone faster if I was still in a relaxed state of mind, but I didn't have the relaxed state of mind anymore. So the day after, it took half a day for me to get the contractions going in all the natural ways, I knew. And still they wanted me, they wanted to induce me. So, yeah, we went to the hospital and the night after and I was still stubborn saying, listen, my body is starting to work. So I bought a little bit of time, but then eventually they induced me. They broke my water.
Angela Walker:It's interesting because, you know, for a successful natural birth, we hear that the woman has to be relaxed. But of course, if you're going into a medical scenario, that's not a very relaxing situation, is it, kim? And I know when I went in to have my daughter, I was supposed to be going into the midwife led birthing unit. I was supposed to be having a water birth. When I got there, that wasn't available to me. Other things in the same way as Angelisa's experience, these things that I had planned, they just weren't an option from the moment I got to the hospital and that did put me in a frame of mind that was not relaxed. Actually, it made me feel very tense. Is this something that you hear a lot about? The birth trauma association Not being able to follow their birth plan?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Yes, I think there are a couple of things there. One is, of course, that birth is unpredictable. So you can have a birth plan up to a point about what you'd like, but you can't always control what's going to happen. So I think you always have to be ready for that. I think one of the things I find difficult as well is what you said about your experience.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:The midwife led birthing unit was kind of lovely, relaxed. They do everything they can to make you feel comfortable at home, and at home If you have some kind of interventional medical emergency, you're put into the obstetric led unit, which for some reason never looks as nice or as relaxing as the midwife led unit, and I'm not quite sure why that is. I don't see why they can't make the obstetric led unit as pleasant and as welcoming as the midwife led unit. It seems very unfair because it's nothing you've done. It's not your choice to be in a different environment. So I think that's one issue they could address actually is to kind of make obstetric led units feel as relaxing and as welcoming as the midwife led unit.
Angela Walker:My friend lives in New Zealand and she had the same midwife throughout her pregnancy and that woman was there when she gave birth and she became friends with her. So when she went into labour she was really giving birth with the assistance of a friend and she found that so reassuring. But I had multiple medics when I was giving birth and I know that's something that a lot of people do have in this country. Could we do something about that, Kim? Do you think A bit of continuity in there? I think we could.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:It's quite complicated, of course, because you can't guarantee that the midwife who saw you throughout your pregnancy is going to be available when you go into labour, and if you have a very long labour, then midwives work a sort of limited amount of shifts.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:But I think we could certainly move to a sort of scenario where you see maybe two or three midwives and form a relationship with them and I think the other important thing is that whoever cares for you in labour it's really important there's a continuity in the sense that, even if they don't know you, they're familiar with your situations. They've read your birth plan, they've read what your community midwife might have written about you, so that they're well informed about your own particular situation, and that's something that's often missing, I think. And certainly when I gave birth, which was quite a long time ago, I had very long labour, but I went through several shifts of midwives and I think that's quite dispiriting as well, actually, that you go, you see one midwife after another.
Angela Walker:And I found that every time a new midwife came in she wanted to see how dilated I was, and so that's a very intrusive test, and every time that happened I felt that set me back in my labour because, as Angelisa said, you can't be relaxed when you've got people checking you and stuff all the time. Angelisa you said about then they insisted on inducing you, which you didn't really want, but you were induced. Talk us through what happened from that point of the birth onwards.
Angelisa Nikolova:We went in and I remember had contractions. They weren't regular and I told them okay, but I just started them, so I'm going to get my time. I actually would love to go back home and as I asked this, I actually got the midwife in front of me rolling her eyes up and she said okay, then I'm going to call the doctor. They came back maybe three hours later I don't know, I don't have a clear sense of time during those days but it was after a few hours and I remember that it was two midwives and a doctor that came standing in front of me with this kind of attitude I don't know how to express it like crossing their arms. They said are you sure you want to go home? You're risking your baby's life, and at that point I was having actually regular contractions.
Angelisa Nikolova:So I was in a spot like I just want to go home for your attitude, but I am not able physically to go home to work right now, so I'm going to stay here, and that's what I remember. So that was one another thing that added up to like I don't need this here. I was extremely disappointed, I remember. So, anyway, at both my time and they said okay, then we are just going to check how dilated you are. And it was around, I believe, three centimeters. So we went all through the whole night and then it was the day after when they broke my water.
Angela Walker:And Venelin. So during this time, Angelisa, she's been in labour for a couple of days. She's not very happy because she'd like to go home and the medics are telling us she can't go home and the birth plans just gone out of the window. How are you feeling at this point in time?
Venelin Nikolov:Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is helpless, because I'm just a bystander. I'm mostly there to support her and, you know, even at some point before that she, before she went into labor, she was saying you know, I want you to be there and if I cannot say something myself because the situation of contractions, I want you to speak for me, which seems completely impossible, of the whole chain of events, the way it's going to, the way it went through, it just felt like that's really absolutely pointless for me to try and say something, because you're just staying there as a as I see it from the medical point of view, as an extra person. That's maybe, in a way, a little bit.
Angela Walker:That's so interesting, my, where we had an emergency situation where my daughter was born. It's called shoulder dystocia the head is born and the shoulders are wedged. And one minute I was doing my hypnobirthing with my lavender spray and my affirmations you know, my body's ready to birth this baby. And the next minute they press this buzzer, all the lights come on, all these people ran in. My husband was pushed away and it was a medical emergency. So they they did have to do that because they have to act quickly to get the baby out, but he didn't know what was going on. Nobody told him. He was physically pushed away and I think he felt like you did, like just a bystander at a spare part. I mean, could more be done, kim? Do you think, to involve the partners and to explain what's going on? How could, how could the dads, the partners, be made to feel more involved and less like a bystander, as somebody who's just getting in the way?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:It's really interesting to hear your story because so many dads have said that to us and they have this moment where there's a medical emergency I mean shoulder dystocia being quite a common one where they're suddenly pushed out the way, they have no idea what's going on and quite often they feel this kind of real fear that they're about to lose either the man or their partner, or possibly both, and nobody's telling them what's going on and they feel completely useless.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:And that is really traumatising and often plays a big part of the dad feels traumatised after the birth, and I think we'd like to see two things really. One is for partners to be better informed during anti-natal education so they have good understanding of what might happen during birth and things that might go on. Obviously, that's true for them as well, but then I think during birth it would be really good to see, even during a medical emergency, if possible, that there's somebody there, a health professional who's there, whose job it is to talk to the dad and say this is what's happening, it's going to be okay, but this is an emergency. We've dealt with this lots of times and this is what we're going to do and I'm going to stand here with you while this is going on and obviously it's hard because of staffing problems, but I think that would make such a big difference for dads to have that support if they could.
Angela Walker:So, Anjalee, you've been telling us your birth story. We got up to the part where you've been induced. Tell us what happened after that, if you would.
Angelisa Nikolova:So at that point, as my water was broke, I started having contractions a lot faster and a lot more painful. I remember it was extremely weak, so I wasn't eating and drinking from like probably a day or even more, as I was told to do so. And then I ended up asking for an epidural. Which funny thing. They were asking me to stay still during contractions, but that's another story. So, yeah, I got the epidural and I actually at least mentally, let's say I got some rest. So I remember that I was asking during the epidural because I was a lot more relaxed. I was asking how long the effect lasts. Anyway, I want to feel my baby coming through, so I'll stop having the epidural when I'm ready.
Angelisa Nikolova:It went like this until I was 10 centimeters so 10 centimeters stopped having the other dose of epidural and they told me okay, you have one hour to push your baby out or we'll need to intervene. Now, I didn't remember this in that moment because obviously this requires like life or death, but I remember now that every woman goes on a transition time. So when you reach the 10 centimeters you get to this state. That gets you ready to push your baby out, and I didn't have that, as me, a lot of women didn't have that moment of recharging before the ring of fire. I remember that because of this, I tried to push my baby out and she wouldn't come out because it wasn't ready, probably yet they had to give me a pysiotomy to have the baby out. They used forceps to pull the baby out and because of that I still had the strength to ask. I still want to birth the placenta myself. And because of all of that, in the rush of everything, they told me, no, now you cannot do anymore. And they gave me an extra injection to push the placenta out. They kind of imposed me to give vitamin K to our list that we had decided not to.
Angelisa Nikolova:So there was this cascade of things that I had to say yes, because it was just rushing, rushing, rushing. I didn't have the time to ask why, what was going on, what's the benefit, what's the risk, so all the things that came back to me later on. So they launched this baby to me like literally, like she was a ball. She nearly fell. I remember this. They tried to stitch me up and I started feeling extremely sick and I begged for someone to pick the baby because I was too weak to hold her, so sorry. So I didn't hold her until four hours after she was born, and this is something I won't get back. No, whatever. And I remember all this cascade of things. No, we need to give you this, we need to give you this, we need to give you this. So I felt sick for three hours after she was born.
Angela Walker:Thank you for sharing Angelisa, because I know that is painful. I can hear in your voice the emotion there, because it does stay with us, these feelings that we have after our birth. And Angelisa talked about that cascade of interventions. Now I know that before my due date, when I had one of my checkups, the midwife said I'm going to book you in for an induction on such and such day, and I said why would you be booking me in for an induction when I'm not even at my due date? I said no way, and I knew that I didn't want to have one unless it was absolutely necessary. But it was almost a procedure. You haven't even reached your due date. We're already going to book you in for an induction.
Angela Walker:And while I was giving birth and I decided I didn't really want to have any medication if possible, they were saying have some gas in there, have some gas in there. And then I had some gas in there and then I started being violently sick and so I felt these things were being pushed on me. I think Angelisa's explained that she ended up going down a path that she didn't want to. Is this? Is this common, kim? Why has this happened to us? What do you think? I?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:thought yes, that's an interesting question. I mean, what stood out for me from what you just said was the midwinter.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:I was saying I'm going to book you for an induction, not we think it might be a good idea to book you for an induction, or would you like to be booked for an induction? It's just, I'm going to do this and this is something we hear a lot I'm just going to give you a little examination to see how far dilated you are. I'm just going to do this, I'm just going to give you some gas and air, and that kind of refusal to ask the woman what she wants to do. So I think that's really common, that kind of, I suppose, and willingness to sort of send to the woman and just kind of telling the woman what's going to happen rather than seeking informed consent about what she'd like.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:I think your experience is actually very common. It's something we hear quite a lot and at that point you then feel very powerless. You think things are just being done to me and I don't have any say of this, I don't have any control of this, and actually maybe I don't want gas and air, and I certainly found the same with gas and air just made me it maybe Actually, maybe physically sick. So and you know, not everything is right for every woman, every, every woman is different and every woman is going to need or want different things doing birth, and that's one of the things we really really need to change is to is to require health professionals to be more women centered in their approach.
Angela Walker:And after my daughter was born and I mentioned earlier that it was a complication called shoulder dystocia I didn't know at the time that they broke her collarbone to get her out. And I kept saying over the next day oh, there's something wrong with the baby, there's something wrong with the baby, she's crying, she's in pain. And they said oh no, you're just a first time mum, you're just panicking. And I said no, there's something wrong with her. And after three days, one of the nurses said oh, what's that noise? Clicky noise. And it was the end of the baby's collarbone clicking, clicking because the collarbone was broken and they didn't. They took her off for an x-ray because I was insisting you must do something. And they came back and they said oh yes, the baby's collarbone is broken. And they'd told me for days no, she's been checked by a pediatrician, she's fine, she's fine. And I was so devastated because my baby was in pain and I knew that she was and nobody had listened to me. That was very traumatic and I just felt like nobody was listening.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Actually, and that is such a common experience that's something we hear a lot that refused to listen. And not just to refuse to listen, but that kind of dismissiveness saying, oh, you're a first time man, you know, you know this is the first time you've been through Like you don't know what's, what's going on, you're being over anxious, you're being over dramatic, you're being silly, all these things. And there have been several reports into maternity services at different hospitals, such as East Kent and Walken Bay, and that's a really common finding that women say they weren't listened to, and often the consequences can be really disastrous because of that. You know they can end in tragedy because the midwives and the obstetrics haven't listened to what the woman is saying, which is that something is badly wrong here, and so that's one of the things that we really needed to change.
Angela Walker:After my birth they did say to me. One person said to me one time would you like to go to birth reflections? Which I now know was like a kind of counseling session, but nobody really explained and it was just had a baby. There's people coming with forms and things. Nobody really said. What you've been through was obviously quite traumatic. Would you like some help? Would you like some counseling? So it wasn't really offered to us properly. Angelisa Vaneline, were you offered any kind of emotional support after your daughter was born?
Venelin Nikolov:I wouldn't say so. Something actually opposite. Probably 12, 12 hours more or less after, after the birth. Even one of the midwives when she walked into the room and she's surprising and she said, oh, you're still here. So actually, instead of someone offering a support, that's the most vivid thing I remember.
Angela Walker:If it had been offered, Angelisa, would you have had some sort of counseling, some sort of therapy? Do you think Most likely?
Angelisa Nikolova:Yes, at least. I didn't even know until three months ago that I could review my notes and should be thinking that something the midwives, what happened? I just didn't know that.
Angela Walker:I think we've talked a lot about the medical profession, but also I certainly felt that when afterwards I spoke to people about the complications during birth, without exception everybody said the baby's OK now, so that's fine. And I felt that was very dismissive of the injuries I sustained during the birth, which were significant, which actually I still have trouble with my hips to date because of that birth, and that was nine years ago. But everybody said, oh, you know, baby's fine, which of course we want the baby to be fine, of course that's the top priority. But it doesn't really acknowledge what the parents have been through. You're nodding, angelisa?
Angelisa Nikolova:Yes, yeah, because this is fun enough. I always say that's not the end goal. That should be the bare minimum. That the baby saved, that the mommy saved, that's for me. From my point of view, birth should be a empowering experience and is now treated like you're ordering coffee at the bar. It's ridiculous, Like it doesn't mean anything when it's the miracle of life itself.
Angela Walker:It's almost like a factory, isn't it? I felt like they just wanted to get us in and out as quickly as possible and in fact we had trouble with breastfeeding initially because my daughter was tongue tied. And I kept saying can we get the tongue tied snipped? And they said just give her a bottle and then you can go home. And I said I'm not giving her a bottle because I don't want her to get bottle preference and then not be able to breastfeed. But they kept pushing have you ever bought a little? Then you can go home, because they couldn't let us go until until she was feeding. But I actually refused to do that. But I know a lot of women. They might not be so strong in their convictions and able to tell medical staff no, this is what I want, should we? What can we do, kim, so that women do feel empowered, so that they don't feel pushed around when they're giving birth?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:It's really hard, isn't it? Because you're so vulnerable at that point. You're so vulnerable doing labor and birth and you're so vulnerable afterwards, you know, especially if you've had a difficult birth and you might have a birth injury and your baby's crying so, so hard, to stand up to medical professionals in that situation. But I suppose that one thing I would say is it's really helpful to have Sunday Alice advocate for you. So if your partner's advocating you, that, advocating for you, and you've told them that they've got to advocate for you, that can be helpful. And of course it was one of the things that happened during COVID. Often the partner wasn't there and therefore they couldn't advocate and that was. That was quite traumatic for a lot of women.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:And I think the other thing is know your rights, because you have the right to say no, I don't want to bottle feed my baby. You have the right to say I want to try and breastfeed Because, as you said, they're very keen to get rid of you. Actually, quite often the women often in and out of hospital in the space of a few hours. You don't spend very long postnatal ward. These days, postnatal ward is sending me. The staff seem to be very busy and don't have time to give you much attention. So I think you know, to a large extent it is a question of just standing your ground if we can, and not being afraid to make it an instance of yourself. Is that, if that's what you want, if you want to breastfeed your baby, then either the perfect right to say you know, I'm going to try and do this. I want you to support me to do this.
Angela Walker:Anjaliisa, at what point after giving birth to your baby did you realise that you were traumatised? Did you ever think, well, this is just what giving birth is like. Or was there a point where you thought I'm really suffering emotionally here, I need to get some help?
Angelisa Nikolova:At first I went to a whole range of emotions. I was probably. It took me a couple of weeks to realise that there was something not okay. And it was okay not to be okay because I remember at first I was blaming myself not to do it better, not to be stronger, not to do all these sort of things, not to follow through with the plan that I had. After a few weeks I started to realise that I needed to do something, I needed to speak up, I needed to find a way. Other women like me. After months I kept having these anger. So I was like okay, we are still traumatised. Every time I speak about it I feel all those feelings coming back.
Venelin Nikolov:You don't remember it straight away because in the given moment your mind blocks it in a way because it's so unpleasant. But then I remember her saying after months, couple of months oh, I remember this happened and I'm confirming yes, it was exactly like this. I was actually surprised sometimes that she did not remember some things and after two, three months just comes back to as a memory oh wait, this happened now I remember.
Angela Walker:That's so true.
Angela Walker:I had the same myself, actually a long time after bits and pieces came back to me and I felt very traumatised when I became pregnant again and then I had to keep going through what my birth plan would be and every time I spoke to the midwives I was just sobbing and I couldn't stop crying and it all came flooding back because I must have been pushing back these emotions and I just couldn't talk about it.
Angela Walker:I had to have a caesarean with my second because of the complications anyway, but I just couldn't talk about it. And then the consultant midwife said to me that she would get the notes from my first birth and go through them with me. So I had a special appointment and she went through everything that happened step by step by step, and that really helped me to come to terms with what had happened. Is that common, kim, that people have these kind of flashbacks that Angelise has been talking about and the emotions that I felt that were years later and it all came flooding back in such a powerful way? I mean, I feel emotional even now talking about it actually.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Yes, I can imagine this is something we hear such a lot is that there's an event that triggers that original trauma, and it's very often a subsequent pregnancy. So what you just described is such a typical scenario really. The woman thinks she's got through the trauma, she's worked through it, she feels okay, and then she gets pregnant again. It all comes flooding back and it's incredibly distressing. And there can be other things as well. For example, baby's birthday is quite often a trigger. So is that anniversary first or second birthday, or quite often much older birthdays as well. It just brings all those memories back.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:And then there are other triggers as well. I mean sometimes just kind of going into a room that reminds you of the delivery room, for example, just a certain smell that you remember. They can be really powerful triggers, and I think what's interesting is that sometimes it can be years later as well. We have women coming to us 20 or 30 years after they get birth and said I'm still getting flashbacks, which is kind of really scary to think that that happens to women. So trauma, I think, is one of those things that really really stays with you, and so you don't underestimate the power of that trauma, which is what makes me so angry when people say, oh, be thankful you've got a healthy baby, because actually it's one of these other healthy baby, but what about them? How she feels both with physical and mental injuries from what she's been through. You know you can't, or you should never underestimate that, because it can be really powerful and really long lasting.
Angela Walker:It's interesting what you said, angelisa, about how you felt like you hadn't done it properly, and I really feel like I felt like I'd failed in giving birth. I'd done all this reading, I had my lavender spray, I'd been doing my hypno birthing, I was excited going into birth, I was excited when my contractions started and then it didn't go the way that I'd hoped or expected and I did feel really guilty about that actually, and I was like is that how you felt, do you think?
Angelisa Nikolova:Yes, yes, the very first day that someone was feeling guilty, guilty, wrong, like yes, that was enough.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:It's so sad. Women beat themselves up about this and of course it's not their fault. You know it's never your fault. It's an interesting idea, you know, the idea of feeling guilty about something that actually you didn't have any control over. So you know, we all say you should never feel guilty about your birth. But of course it's one thing to say that and another thing to kind of be able to internalise that. It's so hard.
Angela Walker:So how many people come to you, kim, how many people are traumatised by giving birth or by witnessing a birth? That's been tricky.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you mentioned those figures at the beginning. What research shows is that about four to five percent of women develop full blown PTSD after giving birth. They have all the symptoms for diagnosis of PTSD, which is equivalent to about 25 to 30,000 women a year in the UK. But then quite a lot of women have symptoms, trauma symptoms. They don't qualify them for PTSD diagnosis, but nonetheless making their lives really difficult. They might feel intense anxiety, for example, and not want to, you know, might not want to go outside with a baby or let NBLs hold the baby, or they might kind of have visions of something really terrible happening. I mean, that's really common. And then again, with partners the research suggests it's about one percent developed full blown PTSD.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:But then quite a lot rather dads and partners who feel traumatised and often don't talk about it because they feel guilty, because they think, well, I wasn't the one going through the trauma, therefore I shouldn't feel traumatised, and my job is to be strong and supportive. And that can be very difficult as well, because that's kind of that's a very lonely place to be if you're fighting to talk about it. And so, in terms of the numbers that come to us quite hard to say we are, but we have a Facebook group that's got 16,000 members now and they support each other. And then we have a lot, a lot of people coming to our peer supporters as well. We have a team of about 20 peer supporters. We answer emails and phone calls and we have we've found in the past three years, since COVID, we have more and more people coming to us for support.
Angela Walker:Can it affect the way that a mother and baby bond, because you know you've been through this trauma and you've got this baby and you want. There's so many emotions Aren't there. This is tiny little baby you're trying to protect and but you're hurt and all this stuff's going on in your head. Does that something that can happen? Can it affect the way that the parents and the baby bond?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Yes, quite often women say they look at the baby and they don't feel anything, for they don't expect to feel this rush of love. They don't actually feel anything at all and they, you know it's just, it's just some baby they've been landed with and that's. That's very difficult because if you're expecting to bond instantly the baby which is one of the things that everybody tells you you know you instantly fall in love with your baby and that doesn't happen. That you know. That answer to an already distressed experience.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:And quite a lot of women say you know that that continues quite a long time. They never have over several years, they don't have that kind of relationship with their child that they hope to have, which is enormously difficult really, because then they feel like a bad mother and they've done something wrong and you already feel bad because they had a difficult birth and sometimes, sometimes it just takes a long time. Quite often we find that eventually, you know, women do kind of develop a close bond with their baby, but it just takes a long time to do that. And I think the other thing is to say women often, so they often say desperately, want to be good mothers, that even though they don't feel that bond.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:They behave as if they have got that bond so they, they, they give the baby all the care and love they can, even if they're not instinctively feeling it. So I think it's really important to remember that you know you. Just because you haven't felt that bond doesn't mean you're not a bad. That doesn't mean that you're a bad mother.
Angela Walker:Kim. What can be done about this? Well, I, think.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:I think there's two bits. That is something we can do to prevent it and is there something we can do to treat it?
Angela Walker:Yes, go for it.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:So I think in terms of prevention there's a lot. I mean there's a huge amount that can be done. I mean one, I think is better anti-natal education, so that you kind of prepared for the things that might happen during birth and therefore you're prepared to make decisions, so that you're not kind of put on having to make a decision on the spur of the moment. So understanding the things like social disorder, dystocia might happen or force it might happen, and also understanding the risk factors for the things that might happen during birth.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:But obviously I think we really need an overhaul of our maternity system so that health professionals provide care that is much more women centred. So we really desperately need informed consent so that midwives aren't saying things like I'm just going to give you an internal examination now or I'm just going to book you in for an induction or whatever it is. You know we hear awful stories about women having membrane sweeps, for example, that consent or all sorts of things happening just being told right, we're going to give you an emergency zone or just going to use forceps or whatever. So there's this huge issue where we really really need to improve maternity care to with a focus on informed consent and also to focus on listening to women. So if a woman says I think something's gone wrong here, the health professionals don't say oh, you know, don't be silly. You don't know, this is your first time as a mum.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:You know you're supposed to be feeling pain and those kind of things aren't really helpful, and, again, much more to support partners as well so that they aren't left in the dark or not left in this sort of situation. You know you both described where you sort of start with a man is stuck standing there, doesn't know what's going on, and that's one part of it is kind of, you know, having a different approach to birth. But I think in terms of treatment afterwards, we really need to be identifying early on that somebody's had a traumatic birth and, as you said, you want somebody to say to you that was a really difficult birth. How do you feel? Are you coping? Okay, would you like some support? That should be a matter of course. I think I think up to.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Oh, there is good news, which is that birth trauma can be treated. There are two really good treatments trauma focused CBT and EMDR stands for eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing. They're really kind of intensive talking therapies that last about eight to 12 sessions, but they are really good at treating trauma and people do tend to recover after a course of therapy. So it's a question of making sure that you get a referral for that and that health professionals understand that that is an option and that your GP will refer you if you need it.
Angela Walker:That's good to hear, and I understand there's also an all party parliamentary group looking into birth trauma. Is that right?
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:Yes, there is. I mean, this is fantastic development. I think there's an MP called Theo Clark who had her own very traumatic birth last year and she was very shocked by what happened to her. She had a third degree tear. She didn't really get the support she needed and she wanted to find out if it was happening to other women. And then, of course, she reached out. She talked to us, initially at the birth trauma association. We put her in touch with women who share their own experiences and so she set up this all party parliamentary group, which is wonderful. So we've now got a group of MPs who are focused on the issue of birth trauma, discussing birth trauma, raising it as an issue with the Prime Minister and with the government. She's also Theo's also done a survey over the summer with Mumsnet of Birth Trauma. She'd be writing the results for that shortly. So it's all really positive. You know, once I think MPs get interested in it and the government gets interested in it.
Kim Thomas, Birth Trauma Association:You know we see some hope of change.
Angela Walker:Thank you so much, Angelisa and Venelin, for talking to me today, because I've experienced a traumatic birth and talking about it can be very emotional, so I really appreciate you coming in discussing it with us and hopefully it will help more people who've had a traumatic birth that might be listening to seek the help that they need. And thank you so much, kim as well, for bringing your expertise to the programme. Thank you everyone. Thanks very much. Today I've been in conversation with Kim Thomas from the Birth Trauma Association, and Angelisa and Venelin Nikolov, who've shared with us their birth story. Thank you for joining us. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Please subscribe and review. It does make a difference and we'll be able to reach more people. And if there's a story you think I should be checking out, get in touch through my website, angelawalkerreportscom.