BODY IMAGE AND EMPOWERMENT: Boudoir, Beauty, Media and Global Body Image Issues

Body image concerns related to weight and appearance are now prevalent on a global scale, leading to widespread mental health pressures. This conversation explores the topics of body image, self-acceptance, and the impact of social media and advertising on our perception of beauty. Alexandra Vince, a boudoir photographer, shares her journey and how her work empowers women to feel confident in their bodies. Kate Richmond, who underwent weight loss and corrective surgery, discusses her struggles with body image and the importance of self-acceptance. The conversation highlights the need to embrace our bodies as a whole and challenge societal beauty standards.

We discuss how body image concerns are prevalent on a global scale and can lead to mental health pressures and what could be done. Kate reveals her battle for self-acceptance and opens up about her weigh, how she lost several stone and the effect it had on her self-perception. Alex explains how photography can play a role in empowering women and helping them feel confident in their bodies.


https://www.fyeoboudoirphotography.com/a-day-in-the-life-of-leading-boudoir-photographer-alexandra-vince/

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5803/cmselect/cmhealth/114/report.html

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9970735/

Transcript

Angela Walker: 0:06

Body image issues related to weight and appearance are now prevalent on a global scale, causing widespread mental health pressures. I'm journalist Angela Walker, and in this podcast, I talk to inspirational people and discuss under-reported issues. My guests today are boudoir photographer Alexandra Vince, who says she helps women feel empowered through her photography, and we're joined by Kate Richmond, who had extensive corrective surgery. Thank you both for joining us today. Alexandra, let's talk to you first. How did you get into boudoir photography? Tell us about your journey.

Alexandra Vince: 0:43

Yeah, I was studying photography at university. It was a fine art photography degree, so we did a lot of nudes and sort of fine art nude portraiture during my studies. I then graduated from that degree into a world of general portraiture and found that my work, especially with women, had the ability to give a real boost. I sort of learned a lot about the power of taking a good portrait of somebody and how that can really help, and then I came up with the idea in 2002 of opening a studio that specialised in doing just that for women, which was an opportunity for women to have portraits full body portraits where they get to see themselves in, in, in, you know, all their glory and get a better perspective of their body shape.

Alexandra Vince: 1:33

I'm passionate. I'm really obsessed with helping women feel more body confident, and my my tool, if you like, is my camera, and I'm able to show people a really flattering perspective of their body through this genre of boudoir photography. So I've been actually doing it for 22 years now and my company for your eyes only portraits photographed over 20,000 women during that time, not just me doing that behind the camera, but a collection of different photographers. So it's been a very interesting journey because obviously over such a long period of time, I've seen, I've witnessed lots of changes in the industry changes in photography, changes in body image and obviously along came social media with all the precious stuff that brought with it.

Angela Walker: 2:18

So how many of your clients, would you say, have got problems with their body image?

Alexandra Vince: 2:24

I think a lot of women feel disconnected from their feminine. They feel, you know, at odds with, with things that make us women. You know our curves are, you know the way that our flesh is and our skin is. You know scars, cellulite, all those things. They feel. You know that they have to apologise for, for what is normal and beautiful, and they disconnect with their feminine side, they sort of lose perspective of who they are and I'd say that bad disconnect that they have with their bodies. I've witnessed a lot of that and I'd say most of my clients have had some sort of disconnect.

Angela Walker: 3:04

As a woman myself, you know I've had two kids, one by cesarean, I've got the scars to prove it and it does make you feel different about your body, like we're changing all the time. The way that my body looks and feels is very different now from when I was 20. I mean, kate, tell us about your body image struggles, because I know you know you've had difficulties in the past. Can you talk us through your experience?

Kate Richmond: 3:30

I don't think that probably my body image issues are any different to most people's. To be honest, I would say I was always very unhappy with the way I looked generally through obviously not through social media such because that wasn't really such of an issue until I was a fair bit older. But I have realised, having lost a lot of weight, that you tend to in your happiness and future happiness, on X weight or X size, and I found out through losing a lot of weight that that isn't the way that you do it. There isn't this golden chalice waiting at that size 12, because I got to that size and probably hated myself more than I did before, because you still see the faults and I think it's a lot of these. Through comparison, you see other people on Instagram and people look perfect and if you're always aspiring to be perfect, you're never going to be happy.

Angela Walker: 4:36

I mean, you lost a lot of weight. It was a eight stone that you lost, wasn't it? Yeah, how did you do that? Just talk us through that journey.

Kate Richmond: 4:45

I ended up doing it through a competition essentially, which is possibly not the best way to do it. There was an online personal trainer who ran a 12 week competition Every 12 weeks. During those 12 weeks you submit, you submitted your photos and your measurements and at the end of those 12 weeks, it wasn't who'd lost the most weight, it was who he said had progressed the best, won a £10,000 holiday voucher. And I did four of those challenges back to back and never won one.

Angela Walker: 5:18

And then, after you lost the weight, you went on to have corrective surgery, .

Kate Richmond: 5:24

You can't get rid of eight stone of fat and water without looking like a deflated balloon. So although, yes, body size was smaller, the scales were looking good. I had all this excess skin. So I had an extended tummy tuck, so I had a half a stone of excess skin removed from my stomach. I had breast uplift and reduction, and that also equaled the size as well, because I had one that was a E cup and one was a C cup, so I have a matching pair now, and I also had my arm bin go wings removed. So I had that done.

Kate Richmond: 5:59

The last thing I had done was when I'd lost all the weight, all of me got smaller, apart from my thighs. My thighs said exactly the same, and then I was diagnosed with a condition called lipidema, which is horrible because it's basically fat which is resistant to diet and exercise. You won't go any smaller. You can't do anything other than surgery. So at one point my waist measurement was smaller than my thigh measurement. So then I had the first of two planned lipidema surgeries, which is like a gentle form of liposuction, and they took four liters from the front of each thigh. That was amazing, very painful but amazing. But then I went on and ended up with the blood clots on my lungs, so I didn't have the second one of those done. I'm done now. I am done with surgery. I have accepted that there is no perfect body and I'm happy with the one I've got now.

Angela Walker: 6:47

Well, I'm pleased to hear that. But what was it like to lose all the weight? So did you feel like I've reached this target weight and I'm still not happy. And then I'm having this surgery and then I'm still not happy? At what point did you kind of think, yes, I am okay as I am?

Kate Richmond: 7:05

It was probably a combination of the, the scare with the blood clots that made me think my body's had enough of surgery. We're done with that now. But also I there was. At the end of each challenge we had a night out like because it was a nationwide fitness challenge. There's a night out and I went out this night in Bristol in a size 12 dress and looked on reflection. I looked amazing, but I spent the entire night even in a nightcloth, wearing a massive coat, because I was so ashamed of how I looked and at the time it didn't register with me.

Kate Richmond: 7:45

But I would say maybe a couple of years ago, incidentally, when I had my first sheet with Alex, I looked back on my photos on Facebook memories and I thought Do you know what? There was nothing wrong with me then, but I remember feeling horrific and just yeah, something just clicked in my brain and it can't be chasing things. You can't wait to be happy with yourself. It all comes from a core of just self-acceptance now, where you are now, because there's not happiness waiting to happen for you. You have to make it happen now.

Angela Walker: 8:24

There was a scientific paper out last year and it was called Body Image as a Global Health Concern and it talks about body capital and the extent to which people are encouraging people to invest in their body and it's about the theory that certain bodies hold more social power and the more money we've got, the more we've got to spend on looking good. Does that theory kind of resonate with you, Alexandra?

Alexandra Vince: 8:50

Yeah, I mean, I think it's been an interesting journey with social media because I see that early on with the influences, they were models and the way that they looked was a particular way, whereas there's now more of a movement away from that sort of model look and, because of the broadcasters and because of the information that's coming out from people on social media, they're talking more about how different they are, how comfortable they are with their body or what they're doing to keep fit and how important mental health is. So it does resonate, but I think that I do believe that I'm also witnessing a shift in that now.

Angela Walker: 9:36

You talk about that in your book, don't you, "Queen of Boudoir? About the impact of social media and cosmetic surgery and how there has been sort of this change over the years since you've been working.

Alexandra Vince: 9:49

Yes, I think people just generally are looking at themselves much more than they used to. People are on their phones more, even as business owners, you have to turn up on camera video. You have to look at yourself and be much more aware of how you're looking all the time. I think that it's affected people. People used not to go to work and have to look at themselves and a reflection of how they present to the world constantly and I think it has affected people.

Angela Walker: 10:23

I can definitely relate to that. Working in TV and even now we're doing this video podcast, I've done my hair and makeup beforehand because we do feel like we have to kind of portray a certain image, don't we and I know that higher income English speaking countries we have this adherence, they say, to unrealistically slender and muscular bodies. It's like we're aspiring to be gods and goddesses and we have to be like the perfect ten or, you know, like a he-man kind of shape. Alexandra, how does your experience in photography I mean, what role does photography play in? We talked about social media, but it's not just social media, it's magazines, it's photographs in magazines as well are showing us these images of people with the perfect body. I mean, how, to what extent is that the cause of the problem?

Alexandra Vince: 11:18

I think that's part of the problem, but I think that it goes right back to when you're a child. So think about your Barbie doll, think about the images that we see and we're shown to aspire to as children, and I think pictures in magazines yes, they've definitely impacted our view of how we should look, but there is, and that's obviously been, a negative, but I do feel, on the positive side, that we are starting to embrace difference and individuality a lot more and with voices from people who have differences of appearance, you know standing up strong and saying you know I'm confident and powerful and you know I have a voice. I think that's countering this early effect that you're talking about. With the magazines and the imagery, and even in TV commercials, I think we're seeing different types of models and actors.

Angela Walker: 12:09

They're using people of all different shapes and sizes now, which is really refreshing, and there's some like online adverts for tights and clothing and things like that, and I think we are maybe seeing a shift. What about your photographs, though? I mean, some of them are really. They're beautiful pictures, but they're quite sexualized, aren't they? People wearing not very much naked in some of them, and they're very sexy. Do you ever worry that your pictures are almost perpetuating this kind of image that women have to be a certain way and sexualized?

Alexandra Vince: 12:45

That probably comes from my own personal view that your sexuality is a large part of who you are and your femininity and your sexuality are a huge part of your personality, and I don't believe that that's something that people should just park and put in a box and keep under the stairs. I feel like my portraits in power people. They are sexy, but they help people to realize that, whatever their shape or size or age, there's an energy to them, a sexual energy, a feminine energy, and I see that as being really important. I think that's a really important connection that people should maintain going forward, and I'm seeing more and more women in their 50s, 60s and 70s having photo shoots because they don't want to lose that sexual side of themselves going through menopause, or maybe they've been in a long-term relationship where they feel unseen, unattractive, and when they start losing that part of who they are, that is quite a big chunk of who they are. It's an important part of who I believe we all are.

Angela Walker: 13:45

Kate, how did you go from being a woman who was you know is it fair to say you hated your body in the way that you looked to so much that you went on this serious diet. You had a lot of surgery. How did you go from being that woman to someone who went along to Alexandra and took all their clothes off and boudoir photo shoot?

Kate Richmond: 14:07

That's a good question. I started working with a mindset coach in lockdown and it became a bit of a challenge to myself. We had to set goals and we had to do things that made us uncomfortable, and I can't think of anything much more uncomfortable than going to a complete stranger and standing completely naked in front of them. I was quite lucky in that I'd been aware of Alex's work for a long, long time. I was first made aware of it before my first marriage, but it was always a pipe dream. I knew her photos were incredible, but it was something I'd never could have done.

Kate Richmond: 14:43

And then, in lockdown, through social media, found Alex again and saw that she was doing some media shoots. So the deal was, you know, come down, have a shoot, but I'm going to use your photographs. I thought, oh yes, that is very uncomfortable. So, yeah, that's how it happened. It was just me forcing myself out of my comfort zone An amazing thing to do, and I was lucky enough to go with a couple of friends as well. I'm very confident in all aspects of my life. I walked into Alex's studio not even to the studio, into the reception area and I just burst into tears. I was absolutely petrified because it was so, so far out of my comfort zone. It was awesome. It was amazing.

Angela Walker: 15:24

So what were your expectations going in and how did you go from, you know, crying in reception to taking your clothes off and having these amazing photos done? What did Alexandra do?

Kate Richmond: 15:35

She is magic. She's just got this energy around her which makes you so incredibly comfortable and, without it sounding in any way cliche, you honestly, you forget, you don't have anything on. You just stood there shouting away and nobody cares. She's just brilliant. I've had similar photo shoots that have been gifts like boo to our shoots, and I felt so awkward. One of them I came in with a massive migraine because I felt so awful about the whole thing, but it was a gift and I felt like I had to go. So that's another reason I was dreading going to see Alex. But she's awesome. She makes you feel a million dollars.

Angela Walker: 16:14

What do you do, Alex, when someone comes in for a photo shoot and they're crying in reception? How do you convince them to come in and take their clothes off? And let you take photos of them?

Alexandra Vince: 16:25

I like to keep people busy. It's about taking somebody out of their mind, getting their body to do something. So in this case it's very choreographed poses. So they are. I feel like they've done an aerobic workout, where the lady at the front in her leotard and you're all there doing the thing. You don't really think about yourself in your leotard, you think about what she's doing and what she's telling you to do. So what I'm basically, how I'm helping people is because I'm putting them in a very safe environment. I've got this black box studio and then I keep my client busy by directing them through about 90 minutes. So it's physical, it's choreographed, it's relatively fast-paced and physical and it's a process where they're lifting and arching and moving their body and I actually call them power poses. So what they're doing is they're telling their brain I am strong, I am powerful. Moving a shoulder forward, standing in particular postures, really does, I believe, send messages to the brain. So that whole process is uplifting in itself.

Alexandra Vince: 17:34

Before people have even seen the photographs, they feel that they've achieved something. They've stepped out of their comfort zone, they've followed very clear and confident direction and they've ended up naked. And then, obviously, then you have the resulting photographs afterwards which are artistic and tastefully nude portraits. They wouldn't have seen their body in those particular postures before, they've never seen. Most people have not seen a full length, a full body photograph of themselves naked. I mean, you might have some pictures taken on the beach. So if you're on the beach, you're in a bikini, you're sat there somebody might take a picture of you and you're sat on the sand eating an ice cream and you're all scrunched up. What I get people to do is stretch and lift and arch and move their bodies in ways that they've certainly not been photographed in before. So that whole process, it's just, it's very uplifting, liberating and makes people really happy, and that's what I want to do.

Angela Walker: 18:34

That's lovely. So, kate, how did you feel then, like by the time you finished doing the photo shoot, how were you feeling about your body? And what about when you saw the final pictures?

Kate Richmond: 18:46

At the end you're absolutely buzzing. It goes so quickly and you just want to do another one, so you want to book in for another one. You're so used to looking at yourself in a mirror and picking fault and seeing the bits you don't like that you don't focus on anything else. But on Alex's photos there are no bits that you don't like. It was weird looking at it because I was like, well, that can't be me because I don't look like that. It's just amazing.

Angela Walker: 19:14

Kate, you work in aesthetics now, don't you? So you must have people come to you every day basically saying I'm not happy with the way I look.

Kate Richmond: 19:25

Yeah, I've got. You can't see it, but it's an enormous mirror at the side of me and it's part of my diagnostic tool because I need to know how that person feels about themselves. I have to be very alert for any kind of body dysmorphia, things like that. So I would say a good 70% of my patients, if not more, make them sit in front of this mirror, and a lot of them you can see them trying to shy away and they won't look or they'll just say I can't sit there, I can't look at myself, and that's so wrong. A lot of people go what do I need? And my opening line with all of my patients is nothing, you don't need anything that I do. The only thing you need is SPF every day. Other than that, you're perfect as you are. There's nothing wrong with you.

Kate Richmond: 20:13

I'm a terrible saleswoman, but it's so sad that people think they have to be fixed and whilst, yes, I do a little bit of work, I will never change anybody's face. I will enhance it and I will freshen them up a little bit, give them a bit of a glow, that's fine, but I'm not in the business of changing people's faces, and anything I can do that makes them feel better. It's so nice when they're, because I'm a dentist, actually that's my strictly my profession. Nobody wants to be there. They don't dance in and they don't dance out again. Sometimes they dance out. But here people want to be here and they cry in a good way here, when you're like, oh my God, you've never looked so much better. And that's what I want, and I think that is what Alex, can do with a camera.

Angela Walker: 20:59

You've been through so much. What's your message to women who are, you know, having body image struggles, who are feeling down about the way that they look?

Kate Richmond: 21:11

You have to start with accepting where you're at now and it's fine if you want to go ahead and change that for whatever reason. But you can't hate yourself into a better body or a better mindset because you've got to start where you are and accept that's where we are and there's nothing wrong with that.

Angela Walker: 21:32

When I look in the mirror and I think, oh, I've got another wrinkle today. I didn't notice that one till today. And I have to say to myself well, do you know what? I'm never going to be any younger than I am today, so I might as well just try and embrace the way that I look right now, instead of wishing that I looked the way that I did 10 years ago. But it is hard, isn't it? Alexandra? How surprised are you that body image is now being cited as a global mental health issue.

Alexandra Vince: 22:02

I'm not surprised at all, but I think people need to learn how to switch that up and I firmly believe that action is a step towards fixing that problem. I think that things like changing where the mirrors are in your house and understanding more about lighting, and understanding more about how you turn on in the world and how people perceive you what stands out to other people is a good thing to do. Social media and imagery around us doesn't help, but I do feel, on a positive note, that moving forward, having a photo shoot is a good idea because you get to see your body in full perspective, as opposed to focusing on small parts of your body that you don't like. So you mentioned that you noticed a wrinkle, a new wrinkle, but the wrinkle doesn't arrive up the stairs before you do. The wrinkle doesn't arrive through the door before you do. You turn up as a whole being, your energy, your character, your sense of style, everything about you, not those tiny little details, and I think when people get to see themselves and understand that, they are a whole package. And I want to tell you a little story about my daughter. So my daughter was born with cleft lip and palate, so when she was born, she had a large hole in her face and we've been on a massive journey together through lots of surgeries and hopefully she's got two more operations this year and then that'll be it. But during secondary school she'd have a bad day at school and so she has some scarring on her lip or top lip and her nose here.

Alexandra Vince: 23:43

And I took a flower out of one of my vases and I crushed one of the petals to damage it and then I took the stem out and I showed it to her and I said what do you think of this? And she said, yeah, it's lovely, mum. And I said, yeah, but can you see this petal's broken? Yeah, but it doesn't matter that the petal's broken, because the whole stem is beautiful, isn't it? And I said well, that's like you, sweetheart, you are the whole stem. You're not just the petal that's got a little scar and you're not your wrinkles, you are your whole body and I think that's why a whole body photoshoot I know it's called Boudoir photography, but I think that's why a whole body photoshoot's really good for you, because you get to see your body in all the different ratios of your body, your leg lengths to your shoulder width. It's just really good for you to see that new perspective of yourself.

Angela Walker: 24:37

I love that story and I love that way of looking at ourselves as a whole and not just the imperfections, and letting those kind of take over our perception of ourselves.

Angela Walker: 24:48

Last year, the House of Commons Health and Social Care Committee produced a report on body image and they urged the government to introduce a strategy to tackle it, and they want to see an education campaign about self-worth and body positivity. And I'm really interested in that because I've got a nine-year-old and she said to me before now oh, mummy, I'm too fat. And that really upsets me actually, because she's not fat at all, she's beautiful, she's a growing girl, but somehow something is getting to her and we never talk about waiting in our house or people's sizes or shapes or anything, but somehow in her circle of friends, in her school, in her world, size matters and that really worries me. So what do you think, Kate, about the idea of the government introducing some kind of strategy to promote, you know, positive health issues and to let people know that being underweight is a serious health issue as much as being overweight?

Kate Richmond: 25:58

I'm not sure where you could start with that, I think, because it's so deeply rooted in everything. It's just accepted, I think, that thin is healthy, which I don't necessarily agree with. You know, I'm still classed as overweight. I don't drink, I don't smoke, I go walking every day, I go to the gym four times a week. I'm probably an awful lot healthier than a lot of skinny people out there. But I just think it has to be a whole thing that people deal with and people have to accept different shapes and sizes. Like Alex has said, it just comes down to acceptance. But I don't know where and if you'd begin to do that when there's such a massive stigma attached to that fat word, where fat really is just a descriptive word, isn't it? Tall, short fat, but it's inherently an insult to say fat.

Angela Walker: 26:51

Alex, where do we start, Like, where can we start with communities, schools, society? What do you think?

Alexandra Vince: 26:59

Definitely schools. And also going back to the mental health issue and just positive mental attitude and the mindset, can't we teach our children that if they're doing the best they can and if they understand about health eating, they understand about the importance of exercise, not for aesthetic reasons but for mental health issues? When we do PE at school, should we not be told that this is great for you, for your energy levels and for your happy cells, or however they want to describe it? I just think if it's the emphasis on you know a healthy mind and looking after yourself, and if the children are taught you know, if you're doing the best you can in terms of your you know, fitness and eating and everything, then the body shape, the body shape thing, will just become secondary to that. I think children need to be taught that it's important to exercise and then that will follow through to people being more active. I guess it's the inactivity that's, you know, a problem.

Kate Richmond: 28:03

Exercise isn't a punishment. It's something that's going to make you feel good, rather than something that you're forced to do do lack of the field and the rain.

Angela Walker: 28:14

Yes, happy memories of cross-country running field covered in mud, oh God. And one of the things that was suggested in this cross-parliamentary group was a national eating disorder strategy, but also working with the advertising industry to encourage advertisers not to doctor their photos. So, you know, we see that all the time, don't we? All the glossy magazines? You know every photo and we do it with our own photos. Now, don't we? We do what you know. We put them through apps and things to make people look better. And what do you think about encouraging the advertising industry not to doctor their images or to certainly limit the extent to which they're doing it?

Alexandra Vince: 29:01

I think that's really important. I think that diversity and, you know, representation in the things that we surround ourselves with, not just in advertising, but also, you know, music videos, it's not just in magazines, I think it's social media, and there aren't the same standards and bodies, I think, representing social media images as there are with, like, say, for example, national television advertising. So what do you do with that when there's, you know that level of freedom, tiktok, and you know Instagram putting out these images?

Angela Walker: 29:39

Exactly. What can you do about TikTok when there's someone in another country who's promoting a really thin body image? I mean, there are some shocking accounts on YouTube and Instagram of people who are so thin and unhealthy, and how can we protect our children from that?

Alexandra Vince: 30:03

Just about. I think, really, it's just important to talk about it openly with our children and for it to become it's just a level of understanding, isn't it? And you know, if somebody's really really thin, you know that's not a bad thing, it's not a really good thing, it's just how they are. It's an end to end to have less judgment about how people look generally, you know not to say, oh, that person's fat, so they must be, you know, inactive and boring and whatever other might think. It's just to pull the way you know, pull the level of judgment right back, rein that in. I think that's what we should be teaching people.

Angela Walker: 30:38

It's really interesting that we're talking about this today, because a colleague of mine mentioned on social media the other day that someone approached her on LinkedIn and said oh, look, I can see that you're overweight. Would you like to take part in my fitness program? And she was appalled because, you know, this person was giving this unsolicited advice, saying look, you know, you're too fat, I can help you. And it reminded me of a time a few years ago when I was very slender and I was doing a lot of running and someone said to me oh, have you, have you got anorexia? And I was appalled and I just think, you know, I was healthy but thin. And this person is healthy but bigger. And maybe we just need to change the way that we look at our bodies and realise that there's a whole spectrum and that we can be healthy on the thinner end or on the larger end.

Kate Richmond: 31:41

Yeah, Alex has got that with the judgmental thing we I caught myself last summer. There was a girl, probably she was probably about 15, 16. She was walking down the street. She had cycle shorts and a crop top and a real big roll on a midriff and I thought, oh, she shouldn't be wearing that. And I thought, well, hang on, she's not just happily minding our own business, she knows what she looks like. Who of the two of us has an issue here? It's me that we've got so much more to us than how we look.

Angela Walker: 32:11

Hey, talking about this link, then, between the way that we look and the way that we feel and our mental health, when you were having these times, when you're really struggling with your body image, how was your mental health then?

Kate Richmond: 32:26

I would say generally. I've had an awful lot of awful things happen to me over the last 20 years or so, and so I am quite a resilient person. But when you can't go to a normal shop and just buy an outfit, when you can't look forward to wedding dress shopping because for someone who is in a bigger body, that is an absolutely harrowing experience. It does, it gets you down and it's not a nice place to be. But I do think there's definitely an upturn now in acceptance across the board. So, whilst I feel I went through a lot of that on my own and it did really really get me down, I think maybe things are getting. I'd like to think things are getting a little bit easier for people now. I think they are a little bit more inclusive for things like that, but it does get you down when you feel, it makes you feel not good enough and not worthy, which is ridiculous, as we know, it doesn't matter.

Angela Walker: 33:41

When? How much did you weigh, kate? Can I ask when you were at your heaviest?

Kate Richmond: 33:46

I was 26 stone.

Angela Walker: 33:49

OK, and was there a sequence of events that led up to you putting on weight like that?

Kate Richmond: 33:58

Yeah, well, I was pregnant. My husband left me when I was eight months pregnant. He left me with £92,000 worth of debt that I didn't know I had and I had to repay every penny. I was raising a child of my own, doing a very stressful career. All of that it just piled on top.

Kate Richmond: 34:23

There's certainly a lot of emotional eating. It was comfort, I think, a lot of the time and that's a very, very, very hard cycle to get out of acknowledging that that's what you do, because it's all well and good doing the calorie controlled competition diet, but it was like 12 weeks on, 3 weeks off and go crazy in those 3 weeks. So I got into a very, very vicious cycle with that. That was not a great time either. So I wouldn't say for one minute I had an eating disorder, because I didn't, but I certainly had a disorder eating.

Kate Richmond: 34:55

So yeah, mental health-wise, I think it will affect you. Whether you're bigger, whether you're smaller, there's always that little nagging thing that you're not good enough and it's shutting that voice down which really helps. Eating healthily is a decision and it's a mission. Sometimes, isn't it Like? I've got friends who spend the whole Sunday neoprepping for the week. That's hard work, I think, making things easier for people and not being Supermarkets putting things on offer which are healthier options. You don't ever walk around Asda and it's the really healthy stuff on offer, is it? It's always the bad stuff.

Angela Walker: 35:32

That's true. Fresh fruit and veg can be quite expensive actually. Yeah, Alexandra, what do you think about this connection between the way that we look and the way that we feel and our mental health?

Alexandra Vince: 35:46

I think it's really important to look after yourself and see yourself as a vehicle, an engine, and I understand that some people are not in the right headspace where they can look after themselves or think about preserving their bodies or looking after themselves in a healthy way. There's lots going on in life and there can be some really tough times, so I'm aware that it's really important to connect mind and body and healthy eating and exercising and everything. But what I would be really interested to know is, obviously I do photo shoots and people who come to me with their issues have already gone on a bit of a journey. They've often gone on quite a big journey actually before they come to me because they're ready to make a change. But it's getting from having the issues where you're struggling to making the changes, that I'm not quite sure how we as a society help people do that without them reaching out, Because the mental health care support is there supposedly, but it's not that great. In communities, women can help each other more.

Angela Walker: 37:03

And did you know that there's a link between body size and salary? Women who are slimmer earn up to 20% more than women who are larger for doing the same job. Did you know that, Kate?

Kate Richmond: 37:16

No, I was not aware, but I can imagine. I can see how it would happen, because I do think people are judged on how they look and I do think that larger people are perceived as less able and lazy, and I think that that would happen. I can see how that would happen.

Angela Walker: 37:41

I guess that comes down to like societal norms, really and again these ideals. And the problem of body image is worse in the white Western countries than in the rest of the world. Did you know that, Alexandra, and does that surprise you?

Alexandra Vince: 37:59

It doesn't surprise me, because we're all looking at our phones, aren't we? And looking at ours, whereas you know, is that happening? Is that happening in other parts of the world? I don't know, but I doubt it's as much as it is around here.

Angela Walker: 38:15

So yeah it doesn't surprise me at all. It'll be interesting to look back in a few years' time, in 10 years, and to see if we've moved on at all and how people feel about their bodies, if it's the same or better or worse. Let's hope that there's going to be some kind of improvement. It's really interesting that you mentioned Barbie dolls earlier, alexandra, because my daughter's got a couple and you know they come in all different sizes. Now they're not all just skinny minis and she's got some that are plumper than others, which is really nice. So when I saw that in the shops I was really pleased actually that at some level there is hopefully a move towards a healthier outlook when it comes to body image. So what final thoughts or messages would you like to leave the listeners with about body image and mental health, kate?

Kate Richmond: 39:05

I would just say the way you look is the least interesting thing about you and accept where you're at now. And just it sounds so cliche to go well, love yourself, but you've got to. You have to accept how you are, because that's how you are and the key to being happier in life is just acceptance, I think.

Angela Walker: 39:27

Alexandra, what do you think?

Alexandra Vince: 39:31

I'm all about helping women to get a better perspective of themselves. So if you understand your body shape and you're at peace with it and you're keeping your mind as healthy as possible, I think the message is really just if you're doing the best you can and you're aware and you're making a difference and you're taking action to improve your mental health and your view of your body. Because, also, let's not forget that our views of our body will affect our daughters or our kids. It's important that we, as mums, stay positive and have positive affirmations about our body shape, to pass that on. So do everything that you can to build your own confidence. So the real power suit is your body. It's really important that you connect with your body, you accept it. I can help people do that through my photography, but there are lots of other ways of doing that and it could be spend more time naked. I don't know.

Angela Walker: 40:28

That's a nice note to finish on everybody spend more time naked! Alexandra Vince, Kate Richmond, thank you so much for joining me. It's been lovely to talk to you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm journalist Angela Walker and today I've been in conversation with photographer Alexandra Vins and one of her many subjects, kate Richmond. I hope you've enjoyed the programme. Please do share it, rate and review it, and check out my website, angelawalkerreportscom. Until next time, goodbye.