PELVIC MESH SCANDAL: Deaths, Disabilities and Denials with Kath Sansom

Imagine going in for routine day surgery to help stop occasional bladder leaks and being left permanently disabled needing a wheelchair or stoma bag. 

That's what's happened to thousands of women around the world.

When Kath Sansom of Sling the Mesh began her campaign, she never imagined it would resonate with so many. This episode brings Kath's emotional account of her personal struggles with pelvic mesh complications, revealing the depths of a medical disaster that has left countless lives in turmoil and even led some women to take their own lives.

The conversation with Kath is both enlightening and heart-wrenching, as she discusses not only her own journey—from the debilitating aftermath of surgery to her powerful activism—but also the shared narratives of women facing similar battles.

The physical and psychological scars left by mesh surgeries are profound . We delve into how these medical procedures have drastically altered lives, leaving individuals grappling with chronic pain, loss of mobility, and an array of systemic health problems and an inability to have sex leading to marriage breakdowns. Kath's insights into the ongoing fight for recognition, the quest for justice, and the stark increase in dependency on medications are eye-opening. This episode is an earnest exploration of the human cost of a healthcare crisis, shedding light on the resilience and determination of those who have been affected.

Join us as we discuss the urgent need for financial redress and transparency in the healthcare system, and Kath's calls a  Sunshine Payment Act. We touch on  the stark differences in responses across the globe. Kath’s advocacy work with Sling the Mesh provides a beacon of support, offering resources for anyone affected by mesh. This episode is more than a conversation; it's a call to awareness and empathy for the victims of a widespread medical oversight that demands our attention and action.

Transcript

Angela Walker: 0:00

It was supposed to stop incontinence and treat pelvic organ prolapse, but thousands of women have been left permanently injured from complications from vaginal mesh. In the UK, victims are calling for financial redress and around the world 100,000 women are suing the manufacturers of vaginal mesh. I'm journalist Angela Walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss under-reported issues. My guest today is Kath Sampson from the campaign group Sling the Mesh.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 0:34

INTRO CLIP She also has a stoma bag. She had to have her bladder removed. That's quite an extreme story. Many women on there wear the mesh is slicing clean through their vagina walls so they can't have sex with their husbands anymore because it injures their husbands.

Angela Walker: 0:53

Kath hi, thank you for joining me. So we're going to talk about calls of financial address for women in the uk who've been damaged by vaginal mesh and where that process is in the uk compared with you know the rest of the world. But first, though, can you share your experience with us? When did you first have an operation to insert pelvic mesh and what was it for Kath?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 1:13

So it was back in 2015 and my girls were teenagers and I found that over the years since becoming a mum, if I did like three sneezes in a row, I'd sometimes have a bit of a bladder leak. Jumping on the trampoline was out. I'm sure a lot of mums will recognize that. But I found that over the years since becoming a mum, if I did like three sneezes in a row, I'd sometimes have a bit of a bladder leak. Jumping on the trampoline was out. I'm sure a lot of mums will recognise that. But I found that as I sort of got into my mid 40s, that got a little bit worse. And then I took up boxing as a sport to keep fit and I found that when I was boxing, in particular doing like the uppercuts, I think that put quite a lot of pressure on my bladder and I was getting like leaks in my training classes and I just found it really embarrassing predominantly male boxing class.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 1:50

And so I went to my GP and asked is there anything that I can do to help this? And he referred me to the local hospital where they told me about this really simple day case gold standard surgery in and out in a day, back at your desk three or four days, maximum a week. You'll be absolutely fine, and I wasn't told of any risks. I was actually asked had I done any pelvic floor physio? And I said I hadn't, and and he told me well, physiotherapy doesn't work anyway, which I've later found out to not be the case. Um, and I very much. That consultation process made me feel like it was a little bit like having a coil fitted. It felt that simple.

Angela Walker: 2:31

So when did you start getting complications from the mesh?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 2:35

So it was instant. So I came out of that surgery, um, struggling to walk, but I just put it down to I'd had surgery and I didn't, didn't sort of think anything of it. And the next day I was still in a terrible amount of pain, um, in my groin, pelvis, hips, but in particular down my legs and in my feet, and it was a struggle to walk. By day three it was getting worse and a week down the line, when you know, I was told I'd be back at my desk, no worries, I started to really panic because the pain was so extreme I'd never felt anything like it and I was lying awake at night, not just in pain but with the regret of what on earth have I done?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 3:14

And that was the point at which I googled TVT, which was the operation I had for stress incontinence. And that's when I started seeing stories come up about women in Scotland who are campaigning. And I just stumbled on a blog written by a woman from Oxford who'd exactly the same as me, really, really fit, had had the surgery to help her leaks and had come out and was struggling to walk. And I read it and my chin hit the floor because I thought this story is my story.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 3:45

I'm now in this position where I didn't even know it was a piece of plastic mesh being put in me. I didn't know long-term complications and there was part of me and this is really common on the page. There was part of me that felt a fool for not researching it, and there was a bigger part of me that was just terrified of. Is this my life now? And so in that moment, I decided to set up a campaign. I didn't know how I was going to do it, what I was going to do, but I started the legwork of the campaign within two weeks of my surgery, um to raise awareness, and, in fact, Liz, who wrote that blog. She put me in touch with about 20 women who joined the campaign back in 2015 and today, in 2024, we've got more than 10 from around the world on the page.

Angela Walker: 4:32

Gosh over 10 thousand women. So presumably, you, went back to the doctor, said I've got these problems. Talk us through what happened when you complained about the problems you were having yeah.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 4:41

So I had a phone call with this lady called Liz who'd written the blog, and she warned me that when I went back to my surgeon I'd be very much made to feel like I was a mystery patient. The complications would be downplayed and I would be made to feel as if this was all in my head and I was shocked. I worked as a journalist at the time at the local newspaper. You know you hear some pretty terrible stories, as you'll know, as a journalist, and I thought, no, they won't do that, he won't lie, he'll take it seriously and he'll help me. Surely, this is what is going to happen. And sure, sure, as I'd been warned, I went along to this consultation and there was the surgeon with two nurses and it was almost like this amateur dramatic stage scene within the consultation room where I told them about my pain and the doctor took a sharp intake of breath and looked at the nurses and said have you ever heard of complications? And they were no doctor, we have not. Oh, how sad. You must be the only one. You've been very unlucky. And it was staged. And because I'd been warned about it, it was so staged. And because I'd been warned about it, I was horrified and also really angry that you you're making me out to be a little bit crazy that I'm suffering these complications and I'm the only one, and yet I know there's others. I've already been linked up with 20 others at this point and I could see there were more.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 6:02

And at that point I asked could I be referred to a surgeon who was known at that time to do mesh removal? And the surgeon admitted he knew about her. So he obviously knew of mesh complications. And I got my referral and I sat and waited to have um, a mesh removal, um.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 6:18

But in that moment I realized, if you're prepared to gaslight me and downplay what I'm going through and treat me as a mystery patient, I'm not the only one. You know he knew I was a journalist at the local newspaper. What are you going to be doing to, for example, a woman in her 80s with no IT skills? You can't get on the internet to find out things. And so that's when I set up the campaign. What was awful was that that pain was so searing and felt just brutal, and it upset me knowing that there were other women out there suffering and just having to put up because no one was taking them seriously and I knew there was some real work to do to get this story out in the media and to get politicians to take notice and to get something done about it.

Angela Walker: 7:09

And, of course, you know, when we go to the doctors, when we deal with health professionals, we defer to them and their expertise and we trust them, don't we?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 7:18

Absolutely, and that's a real narrative, recurring narrative on the page, of shattered trust amongst women and men. We have male members who've had hernia mesh and our trust is so broken from this experience. You know I'm not unique. I would say nine out of 10 on the page have had that same experience as me, where you've gone back to your surgeon and you've been well institutional denial that this mesh surgery has caused so many problems and at the time the pain was so bad. I worked as a journalist but I also ran my own successful photography business. I've been doing it for over 15 years. At that point and I'd had a wedding planned for three weeks time and I had to. I couldn't cancel. How can you cancel on a bride? I had to rush around finding another photographer to do that wedding for me, but in that moment I knew that was the end of my photography business and it was.

Angela Walker: 8:11

that was it? Because it's very physical being a photographer, isn't it? I guess it stands to reason. You know there's always going to be a certain number of complications with any medical procedure, but why can't people who've had this mesh implanted, who've got problems, why isn't it as simple as just being able to have it removed, kath?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 8:30

So when the mesh goes in, within a couple of weeks tissues and nerves have started growing through like the mesh weave, so it becomes almost embedded, if you like. Uh, it's complex and and quite dangerous surgery to go in and try and remove it. It's not easy. It takes a highly skilled surgeon to even attempt it, um so. So finding a surgeon that will do it, um, that can do it is is really difficult, and although we have specialist mesh centres now set up thanks to the first Do no Harm report, the waiting lists are outrageous two, three, four years. Some women are finding that they thought they had a full removal and it hasn't. It's only partly been taken out. Essentially, mesh was designed to go in and be permanent. It was never designed to be removed. So I think the horrible thing about the whole mesh scandal story is you know, we really need to have medical devices that have been better regulated, better tested. We shouldn't be putting something in humans that can't be removed if it causes problems like this.

Angela Walker: 9:31

So talk us through the effect the injuries have had on your everyday life and what's your situation now. Have you had the mesh removed? How's your body now?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 9:40

so, the effect the mesh had on me instantly. Within two days my nose started dripping. It's like a kind of inflammatory response reaction and despite mesh removal, at nine years later, I still have that. Um, my nose drips constantly. Um, that's a minor complication compared to the pain down my legs. That did, um ease a little from removal, but I find I can't run anymore. I can't do any impact exercise because it puts it just leaves me in a lot of pain in my legs. Um, I can't cycle anymore.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 10:13

I used to have have two bikes. I'd go like mountain biking. I was training to cycle up Snowdon. That's how stupidly fit I was. And I can't even cycle up town anymore. You know that's a hobby gone.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 10:25

I found there was a lot of vaginal pain. That went after removal, thank goodness. So I would say, despite having a mesh removal, I, like everyone on the page, we have to get used to a new normal. Now my new normal is really good, despite being quite bad, probably to anyone listening, but it's really good compared to some of the women women on the page who, um, one in four of them, need some kind of mobility aid like a stick, a mobility scooter or a wheelchair. Seven in ten have lost their sex lives because of the pain in their vaginas that never resolves after removal. A lot of them struggle to walk, struggle to sit, struggle to travel on public transport. A lot of them have had to give up work. I feel lucky that I can actually work.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 11:10

A lot of us have chronic fatigue, myself included, so I have to manage my time so I can build in like naps and rest in between activities. Um, so I've gone from being this really super fit woman to having my health and my hobbies compromised. A lot of us have IBS. I have that. I have a lot of food allergies now and intolerances. It sets up a whole like system of reactions, of pain, but also almost like systemic illnesses, like food intolerances, rashes, all that kind of thing. It's really hard to get across how badly people have been affected, but I would say people have gone in for a surgery they trusted and they've had the rug pulled out from under their feet and their lives have been ruined.

Angela Walker: 11:55

It's interesting you say that. I'm just going to read you from this long-term study by the National Library of Medicine and it says mesh surgery was associated with poor mental and sexual health outcomes and increased opioid and antibiotic use in women with no history of these outcomes.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 12:11

It doesn't surprise me to know the level of suffering. You know, more than 50% of women on our page have recurring urinary tract infections and over 10% of those are becoming antibiotic resistant. So we have women that are becoming at risk of sepsis because antibiotics are no longer working for them. We believe that, like a biofilm creates around this plastic mesh and then bacteria almost gets stuck. So despite taking antibiotics, you can't get rid of these UTIs. So there's women going back and forth to their GPs and ending up in A&E for some serious UTIs. So that that doesn't surprise me.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 12:47

The opioid use. Women are trying everything to get rid of pain. So they're not pain, they're not addicted to painkillers. Let me say it a different way, that they're desperately trying to find a way to get rid of their pain because it's awful. You know there's some women they can't even find a way to sit comfortably or lie comfortably. We do have some women that they can barely get out of bed because they can hardly move, or the pain because they can hardly move, or the pain.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 13:15

And these are women. You know, women on the page. They had the surgery because they were preparing to run a London marathon and had embarrassing bladder leaks, had this surgery. They've never run again. They can hardly walk again. You know it's devastating. We have men with hernia mesh, where the mesh has eroded, which means like cut, if you like, into their spermatic cord. So you imagine not only the pain but you know they're probably not going to be able to have children, but not naturally anyway. Women where the mesh is sliced clean through vaginal walls, causing terrible pain for them but also making sex impossible. We've women who the mesh have sliced into their bowels and their bladders and they've had to have organs removed and they've now got stoma bags. I mean and these are all people that trusted their doctor that they were having a simple fix for incontinence or prolapse.

Angela Walker: 14:07

Now I know at the beginning of this conversation you said you felt gaslighted by the doctor when you went back initially. We're a few years on from that by the doctor when you went back initially. We're a few years on from that. What's your response? Been with the authorities now, because you, along with all these other women, are quite rightly seeking financial redress. Where's that at? What's going on with the authorities?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 14:29

So, in terms of the gaslighting that is still going on, sadly, and might I say it is quite a common experience of anyone who's been harmed from a healthcare treatment, not just mesh you go back and you face this wall of institutional denial. That's really common. But in terms of mesh um, financial redress, we had the first do no harm report by Baroness Cumblidge, which was groundbreaking because that recognised not just the suffering caused to women but also how our voices were not listened to, and many for years. It recognised that whole scale of gaslighting and a lot of misogyny within that. So it's meant that the authorities have had to sit up and take notice, because that's been a really groundbreaking and damning report, in fact, of the healthcare sector.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 15:18

So where we're at now is one of the nine key recommendations of the Cumberledge First Do no Harm report is that women get financial redress and what that means is that a system is set up whereby payments are made to women, where they don't have to fight in the courts. It's just given to them in lieu of everything they've lost their health, their hobbies, their mental health and well-being, their businesses, their jobs, their pensions. You know, we shouldn't have to fight through the courts in an adversarial system. It should just be given and that's why it's called financial redress. A report called the Hughes Report by the Patient Safety Commissioner came out in February of this year and that's recommended that redress is given and starts as early as 2025. But we're just waiting for the government to come back on their decision on that now.

Angela Walker: 16:08

Yeah, the Patient Safety Commissioner for England said that people who've been harmed by pelvic mesh should receive an interim award of £25,000. That was Henrietta Hughes, who's a practising GP, and she said thousands of women have been harmed and it's a crucial step towards acknowledging the challenges faced by families impacted. Has the government responded to that call for redress for this initial payment of £25,000?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 16:36

call for redress for this initial payment of £25,000? Nope, not yet. No-transcript. It made it clear they didn't really want to go down this route. They certainly weren't going to set up a special person to sort of deal with this, if you like, and I think the pressure has been put on continuously by Baroness Cumblidge and other politicians. We've had the appointment of Henrietta Hughes, which has been incredible. She's been able to put more pressure on, but essentially no, we're still waiting for an answer.

Angela Walker: 17:09

Henrietta Hughes, who is the patient safety commissioner, said if the government does not accept my recommendations, it would be a cruel and callous disregard for the many vulnerable people who have suffered through no fault of their own. The government will be signalling they do not care 100%.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 17:27

It's strong words and they're strong words that need saying.

Angela Walker: 17:29

I did contact the Department of Health press office twice. They've just ignored my contact completely. So I did give them a right to reply, but they weren't interested. So talk to me about the Sunshine Payment Act, because that's something that you've been calling for, isn't it that?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 17:46

It is, from pretty much the early days of my campaign. I found out about something called the Sunshine Payment Act. Now they have it in America and they also have a version of it in Denmark, France, Belgium. And what it is? It's a law that forces the industry, so the makers of drugs and medical devices, to log all of the money it gives to doctors, researchers, healthcare charities, royal colleges, teaching hospitals, parliamentary groups. You know there's a lot of money being sprayed around the healthcare sector to essentially they're not doing it because they're a philanthropic interest. They're doing it because it helps promote their treatments. It might help get a treatment approved faster. You might get a doctor who's on the television that might talk about their treatment because they've been invited to a training course in America and it's on their radar and money given to train surgeons in perhaps a new product.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 18:41

We know this happened in mesh that training sessions were paid for by the manufacturers of the mesh and what that does is it adds bias into prescribing and treatment options.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 18:53

It adds bias into the scientific literature and it makes me and many others question research integrity. So when I started looking at the scientific literature around mesh, I could see that there was so much studies out there that were all promoting it as gold standard treatment. But if you could go, if it was written by an American author, I could go to the American database and find if that author had taken money from industry and a lot of times they had. So I really want to see this for the UK so that when new scientific literature comes out or a new healthcare treatment come out, we can a look well, actually, who's written this, who's promoting it? Go to the open public database, type in their name and and and it can come up. You know that has how much money that person has taken. Um, so in america, for example, that there's a particular gynecologist who's a a really well-known key opinion leader and you type name in, he's taken more than 1.6 million in the last. I think it's six years.

Angela Walker: 19:54

That's a lot of money, right? That's quite a big sweetener, isn't it? It is a big sweetener, it's a big sweetener. And I think if you're being given a million pounds, some might argue that it's easier to turn a blind eye to the failings of a certain product than if you haven't been given a million pounds.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 20:10

And yeah, perhaps the public does have a right to know about these things 100% and we have strong suspicions of various names, if you like, within the gynecology sector who've probably taken payments from industry. But we have no way of proving it and you can't say otherwise. That's defamation, right? So the only proof we have is there was a Scottish surgeon who took 100,000 pounds from the makers of a particular mesh that he was trialing, so that was taken for research purposes. Now, in his trial he came out with a really glowing report.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 20:42

This mesh is really safe. It doesn't cause any thigh pain. Crack on that's. It's great, great so, but based on that and other scientific literature, but but this particular report was used to help promote mesh's gold standard. Now this particular mesh sling is the is the worst one that has. That has put our women into wheelchairs and on walking sticks and mobility scooters. Uh, it's a particular, it's a particular method of insertion that that has really caused thigh pain and his paper said it didn't cause thigh pain. And now the only reason we know about that payment is somebody whistle blew on him eight years after, eight years later, after the paper was published. So we need these payments to not sit under the radar. We need them to be in the public domain as soon as you know, as soon as scientific literature is out, so we can. We can have an informed debate on the impact of um conflicts of interest of industry payments so, while we're talking about money, let's get back to this idea of financial redress.

Angela Walker: 21:42

I mean, where are you at with that now? Because you know you've been in pain for a long time. You've been campaigning for a long time. You've been campaigning for a long time. There are thousands of women in the UK who have suffered from this pelvic mesh and it's acknowledged that's why they're suffering. So what reasons are you being given for delays in this money?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 22:04

Well, we haven't had a reason. Just, you know we've got to wait for the government to respond and I understand we're approaching a general election. We all know that. Um, it's testing times, but even more testing for mission injured women who've lost so much, and you know we need a commitment from the government that these payments are going to be forthcoming. You know, I look at the infected blood scandal. Those poor people have had to wait four decades. It's outrageous. You know, people have had their lives. Innocent people have had their lives ruined. You know, same as the mesh injured women. They innocently trusted this procedure and have lost so much. We must not be left to wait.

Angela Walker: 22:44

I've reported on the infected blood scandal many, many times in my career, and so many of those people that were affected have died before they've received any kind of financial redress or compensation.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 22:57

um and that's how most injured women feel, and that's still rolling on now as well.

Angela Walker: 23:02

Still waiting, still waiting. You talked about gaslighting from the medical community. Do you think politicians are taking this seriously enough?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 23:12

They are now. So back in 2015, when the campaign first began, there was some when I say, hesitance to set up an all party parliamentary group. I think it was. They could see it was a problem, but they thought it was only a small number of people and it was. They could see it was a problem, but they thought it was only a small number of people and it was only by. I kept sending out press releases and calling in favors from journalist mates, if you like to come on. We need to keep telling these women's stories. We need to get it out. Then keep telling it from different angles so that the politicians realize how bad it was. And and so, back in 2016-17, that all-party parliamentary group was set up and, thanks to that, other politicians were realising that actually, yes, this is serious. So I think if politicians have a constituent suffering, yes, they know how serious it is. I think the government and still not taking it seriously in terms of the financial impact and giving redress.

Angela Walker: 24:06

Sure, and it was in the headlines a couple of years ago and then you know, just sort of almost seemed to go away. But of course, behind the scenes, thousands of women like yourself are still suffering.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 24:16

Yeah, 100%. I think the first Do no Harm report came out and a lot of people just assume everything's fixed. Now, of course it isn't fixed, because we've only really scratched the tip of the iceberg with new members joining all the time, um, and and the story carries on for those people who've been harmed um and tell us about some of the most extreme injuries that people are still suffering from uh, so, uh, one lady springs to mind who's had eight a and e admissions in the last 18 months for sepsis because she was told her mesh was removed and actually she's since found out, I think, only two centimetres of it removed.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 24:55

So there's still this piece of plastic with all the toxins leaching within her system which is causing dreadful UTIs. So she's sepsis risk. She also has a stoma bag. She had to have her bladder removed. That's quite an extreme story.

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 25:09

Uh, there's many women on there where the mesh is slicing clean through their vagina walls so they can't have sex with their husbands anymore because it injures their husbands. I'm sorry if that that's a dreadful story to tell, but that's really common. On the page, um, women who need mobility scooters to to get around because their legs shake from all the nerve damage where they just can't walk anymore. We have women on the page who are suicidal, and that's the one that really upsets me that these were women with great lives, jobs, you know, vibrant careers all ripped away from them and some just don't want to be here anymore. And we have had suicides of members not just in the UK but from around the world Because they just don't want to be here anymore, and we have had suicides of members not just in the UK but from around the world, because they just don't want to be here anymore, and that's heartbreaking, of course the mental health toll of any kind of illness or disability is hard to bear anyway.

Angela Walker: 26:04

But of course when it's something that is avoidable, that could have been avoided, it's understandable. The negative effect that it's having on people and not being able to have sex is a terrible thing. What effect is that having on people's marriages?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 26:21

Oh, appalling. When I first began the campaign, it was something that women didn't really want to talk about because they felt embarrassed that they were grieving the loss of their sex life. And I would say to them if this was men losing their sex life, well, a people would be sympathetic and supportive, but B this operation would have been stopped years ago. But there's always this narrative of guilt among women that they shouldn't or they feel guilty, that they want a sex life even so. So first of all there's that guilt, and then there's a sadness or something that that's lost, that they used to share with their partner, and then, sadly, we do have many women on the page whose husbands are cheating or they've left them. You know marriages are breaking down and you know there's that's another like smack in the face of appalling and devastating complications that women are having to go through, from this simple day case surgery how do you feel about this situation?

Angela Walker: 27:21

hang on, I'm sorry to see you so upset? I'm sorry to see you so upset. This has devastated your life, hasn't it?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 27:28

I think, do you know what? Oh my gosh, sometimes, sometimes it just hits. You know you oversee a group of people who are struggling so much physically oh dear goodness, sorry mentally and emotionally and, um, mentally and emotionally, and what is really hard is like I can't fix this. You know I can't fix their lives, I can't fix what's been done to them. You know the emotional toll it's took on me and all of the admins is huge. Well, you can see from the tears, can't you? All of the admins is huge. What you can see from the tears, can't you? Uh, it's taken a huge toll on me, um, because it's painful, but like really painful, watching people struggle and, um, and knowing that actually, like there's this huge patient safety scandal that has created massive profits for industry and industry shareholders and at the end of it there's innocent people in their homes with ruined lives and it feels like nobody cares. That's really hard.

Angela Walker: 28:44

No not at all, not at all, because you've really been through and you are still going through something which is so traumatic and it wasn't your fault, and you know you're doing. You're working so hard to help people and to bring justice. I know lots of women 10,000 women are already in regular touch with you. Women 10 000 women are already in regular touch with you. But what about if there are people listening who've had vaginal mesh and they've got problems? Or men who've had mesh for hernias? How can they get in touch with you if they want to join you in your campaign and they want some help and advice?

Kath Sansom, Sling the Mesh: 29:24

yeah, uh. Well, I would say, look out for the Facebook support group. We're also on Instagram, twitter. We have a Sling, the Mesh website, with lots of information on. It's not just like hernia mesh and pelvic mesh, there are also men's mesh slings, so that's men who've had prostate cancer and suffer bladder leaks. They've been offered mesh slings. There may well be men out there suffering, but they wouldn't know. To come to a women's health campaign maybe. So if that sounds like you, or if you know someone with prostate cancer who's been offered a surgery, a simple, quick fix please let them know and come to the page for information. There are also women who've had breast cancer. There's certain types of mastectomy repairs that might involve surgical, surgical mesh implants. So come to the page. There's lots of information. Go to the website, check it out and try and do your research and be informed and ask questions.

Angela Walker: 30:16

Kath Sampson. Thank you so much for talking to me today. Thank you, Thank you. You've been listening to Angela Walker in Conversation. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Don't forget to follow and subscribe, and please do share, rate and review the podcast, because that means the algorithm will show it to more people like you who are interested in these kind of stories. You can find more information on my website, angela walker reportscom, and plenty more podcasts along these lines, talking about human interest issues. Take care till next time. Goodbye.