EDUCATIONAL INEQUALITY: Overcoming Barriers for Black Caribbean Youth with David Okoro and Chidera Nome

Institutional racism, socio-economic factors and low aspirations from teachers  are causing boys of Caribbean descent to fail in school.

That's the view of founder of The Westside and Lewisham Young Leaders Academies, by David Okoro.

Children of black Caribbean descent face significant educational disparities, with lower achievement in GCSE, higher rates of exclusion and are more likely to end prison. 

The academies offer a range of programmes, including mentoring, leadership development, and exposure to successful black role models to raise confidence, aspirations, and skills among black youths. 

In this podcast David Okoro and Chidera Nomeh, a student at Westside Academy join Angela Walker to talk about the positive impact of the academies and to discuss the wider issue of what can be done to close the gap.

The academies face funding challenges and rely on grants, donations, and volunteers to continue their work. David emphasises the need for government intervention and investment to address the systemic issues contributing to the underachievement of black young people.

https://www.wylauk.com/

Music credit: Moment of Inspiration by Purple Planet Music

Hi listener. I thought you might enjoy Don Anderson's podcast. Missing Pieces - NPE Life is a podcast that curates stories of and about people who find out, usually through a home DNA test, that someone in their family tree isn't who they thought. They also tell stories of adoptees who've found lost family, or are looking.  The host, Don Anderson, found out in 2021 that his dad wasn't his dad. It changed his life. NPE stands for Not Parent Expected or Non Paternity Event.

Chapters

• 0:03 Challenges Faced by Black Caribbean Children
• 3:58 Empowering Black Youth Through Education
• 13:25 Empowering Black Youth Through Education Programs
• 26:46 Inspiring Future Generations Through Education
• 30:27 Transformative Impact of Sailing Academies

Transcript

Angela Walker: 0:03

Children of Black Caribbean descent are far less likely to achieve a grade 5 or above in GCSE English and Maths than their white peers, as, according to government figures, just 29% of boys will get those grades, compared with an average of 47%. What's more, children attending a poor quality school as rated by Ofsted are more likely to end up in prison later on. Why is this and what can be done about it? I'm journalist angela walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss under-reported issues. My guests today are education trainer and consultant and founder of westside and lewisham young leaders academies, david okoro and chadira nome, ayear-old, who joined that academy three years ago. Thank you both for joining me. Chidera, I know you're achieving great things after attending Westside Academy and I'm really looking forward to hearing all about that in just a moment. But first, david, I mentioned some of those national statistics about young people falling behind when it comes to GCSEs and exam success. Why do you think that is?

David Okoro: 1:11

I think there are a number of reasons why this situation is continuing, and when I say continuing, this is not a new thing. It's not something that's just happened in the last five years or 10 years or or 15 years. This is a 40 to 50 year problem and there are a number of factors, um that I think there are the socio-economic factors that are impacting upon black young people and their families and poor housing, high levels of unemployment, um and and lower wages, living in disadvantaged areas and generally attending schools that are underperforming. And then you know, we have to be honest as well and say that there are elements of institutional racism that have impacted upon Black young people and, as I said before, this is not a new thing. This is something that's gone on for the last 40 or 50 years and that's what spawned the growth, really, in black supplementary schools over the last 50 years to try and redress that situation and that problem.

Angela Walker: 2:19

Yeah, it's interesting you mention that because I know in the 1970s we saw the rise of Saturday schools, which was to support black children because they weren't achieving their potential. Can you tell me a bit about that movement, David?

David Okoro: 2:33

Yeah, you know, it's a movement really that was spawned, as you said, out of the underachievement of black young people in British schools, of the underachievement of black young people in British schools. And this is those black young people came from families who were quite, who were quite aspirational and um who had a really high focus on on education and um. It came at a time as well when black young people, especially um Caribbean boys, were being, were being stigmatised as being educationally subnormal and were put into schools or into classes where it was inevitable that they would not reach their potential. And this came as a shock to many African and Caribbean families. It came as a shock that their children were struggling in school or that schools were failing them. So what they did? Instead of just complaining and and moaning and not doing anything about it, they put their money where their mouths were and they set up supplementary schools, stroke saturday schools right across the country. Every major city and some small towns in the UK would have had a black supplementary school to help support black young people through their educational journey, because they knew that the support that they needed they were not getting in school.

David Okoro: 3:58

As I mentioned before, there was institutional racism, but there was also outright racism as well. Black children you know being called racist names in classrooms, not by children, but by teachers. I mean, this was quite a common thing back in the 60s, 70s and even the early 80s, when I was still in school. There was still racist name-calling in the classroom and that was seen as standard really. So black communities set up supplementary schools where young people could learn academically, but they could also learn other things as well, such as black history and other life and social skills that would help them during their school journey and would also help them during their journey into careers and employment.

Angela Walker: 4:52

And is it these Saturday schools that really kind of influence you and encourage you to set up these academies?

David Okoro: 5:02

Definitely, and I was. I was one of the recipients of um, attending a supplementary school and and you know, I'll admit, when I was in school I was um, I was told by my teachers that I was going to end up dead or in prison. Um, I was excluded from school when I was in year 10 and um in terms of aspirations. I remember speaking to my careers teacher when I was 16. And I said to my careers teacher I would like to be a pilot. And my careers teacher said to me well, you know, david, you're a big lad, why don't you just focus on sports? And that was quite common. That was quite common. And when I speak to some young people today, they are still having similar conversations with their teachers who have low aspirations for them.

David Okoro: 5:48

So the reason why we set up the academy or the academies, is because we were concerned about the life chances for black young people in education and post-education as well. So we decided to set up Westside Young Leaders Academy first, which was primarily aimed at boys. And it was aimed at boys because when you looked at all of the negative statistics, black boys were near the top of the list, whether that was educational outcomes, whether it was exclusion from school, whether it was contact with the criminal justice system or whether it was careers and employment. Black boys were not doing well, so we decided to introduce interventions via the academy to help redress that. We didn't see anything positive going on in schools really, so we decided to do it ourselves and try to put together a range of interventions and programmes that would help to raise confidence, raise aspirations, but also equip young Black people with the skills, the qualities and the mindset that would help them to be successful in school and beyond.

Angela Walker: 6:59

And I'm going to bring you in here, Chidera, because you've attended Westside Academy. What did you do there and how has that helped you?

Chidera Nome: 7:09

so I first attended west seven in 2020, when I was, I think, 11, and the only reason why I went was because I wanted to be the person I've always wanted to be. Before I went to, I was always in my shell, very quiet, not really wanting to venture out of my comfort zone, not because I was introverted, but because I was just so scared of talking to other people, what people think of me. You know how to start conversations. So in Wylet, I learned a range of things, starting with my history. In school, I never really knew where I came from. I always knew who I was. I knew what slavery was. I knew how we came from. I always knew who I was. I knew what slavery was. I knew how we came out of it. I knew the day of emancipation, but I never actually knew my history.

Chidera Nome: 7:50

So in Wyla, I learned a lot about my history and where I came from, who my ancestors were. I also learned a lot about my worth. I remember before I went to Wyla, I did know who I was, but I wasn't sure of myself. In Wyla, I learned about my worth. I did know who I was, but I wasn't sure of myself. In Wyler, I learned about my worth. I learned about who I was and who I could become. Those are the type of stuff they teach in Wyler. They teach us how to not only become the next leaders of the next generation, but how to be sure within ourselves, how to know our worth. That's a big lesson that's taught at Wyler. Lots of different kind of initiatives that are set in place, such as leadership traits we are bearing, and courage and decisiveness. We have the 13 steps to success. One of them is know your worth those lessons that are taught to help us, as Black youths, achieve our potentials.

Angela Walker: 9:07

And do you think that you've seen amongst your peers some young people getting sidetracked, getting swept along with you know, perhaps criminal behaviour, things that aren't going to help them move forward? Do you feel like the Academy has helped guide young people away from that and down the right path? Yes, definitely.

Chidera Nome: 9:30

I know that when I went to Wyla first there were a couple new boys that had joined and I did speak to them a few of them and I kind of gauged where they'd come from, their background. You know who they were and then I spoke to them a couple years later and they were two completely different people. Wyla as an organisation definitely guides young black men away from a path of being criminals and although it doesn't completely steer them away, it implants in their brain that they can be more, that they think that they can succeed and that going down that path of criminal behavior isn't their only kind of resource that they have at their disposal. They can be better people. And a lot of my peers in and out of the academy I've introduced them to Wyler and they've kind of gotten the idea that oh wow, there's an academy that is only for black people that can help me become more than I am.

Chidera Nome: 10:26

A lot of my peers that were out of school I know that even in school, even when they were learning, they weren't achieving as much as they could. They were kind of swept, weren't achieving as much as they could. They were kind of swept under the rug because teachers saw them as criminals, dangerous to the classroom. They saw them as lazy, not really wanting to learn. And seeing that happen, knowing that there wasn't really much I could do about it at the time, knowing that, while it didn't even exist, because this was happening before I went, it was a sad sight to see that a lot of my peers who didn't know themselves what they could be, were kind of just stepped under the rug, sidetracked. Teachers didn't even look in their direction anymore and you're definitely, you know a success story.

Angela Walker: 11:07

You've gone on to secure a place, a prestigious boarding school. How much of what you learned at the academy? Um, you know how much credit do you give the academy for that?

Chidera Nome: 11:20

I give the academy about 99 credit because they've helped me just so much with my journey to going to this boarding school. I learned a lot of lessons at the academy and a lot of them have actually applied to the schools I'm at now. For example, I go to a predominantly white school where I can count on my 10 fingers the amount of black people in my year. So going to Wyler and then coming to an academy, going to a school like that sorry, I kind of felt out of place. I didn't really know where to be because in my house the house I'm in now, my boarding house there's only two black people and one of them's in the year below me. So I quite literally have no one that I can relate to. But after going to Wyler, after going to that school, I know that's okay now and I know that me being different and me being who I am is something that I should embrace instead of shy away from.

Angela Walker: 12:09

David, how does that make you feel when you hear the impact that the academy has had on Chidera and her future?

David Okoro: 12:18

Well, I'm really proud of Chidera, first and foremost because, like so many black young people who have potential and, yeah, who have potential but that potential isn't really nurtured in schools, and part of our role is to try and nurture that potential. What we try and do is that we try and bring out what is already within, and that's something that doesn't happen in the education system. And it's three things really. One is a knowledge of self who am I, where do I come from and where am I going. That's a foundation that every person, never mind a young person, must have and should have. And then, secondly, confidence, and you know Chidera talked about her confidence before. She's an intelligent young woman, um, but if you don't have confidence, you see, for us the way I see confidence, confidence is like a superpower and when you, when you are sure of yourself and when you believe in yourself, you can achieve amazing things. So I know Chidera says 99% of it is down to the academy. I think she's being very modest. Our role really is to get people like Chidera, young people like Chidera, to recognise their worth, to try and instil them with confidence and then get them to aim high, and then, when we do that, that's when the magic happens. And that magic is is, you know, we see that every week.

David Okoro: 13:42

We see all of the time young people who have been written off by school or or in education, have been written off by society in general. Um, and we see them come alive because we believe in them. And I think when you start to believe in young people, they start to believe in themselves. And I think if they are constantly bombarded with the negative stereotypes of what a black young person is, then that's when the problems start. And I know from my own experience as a young man growing up, you know I was constantly bombarded with negative stereotypes of what it meant to be a black young man and you start to believe in those stereotypes. You believe that those stereotypes that are part of you. Our job is to unburden our young people with those stereotypes and to get them to focus on how amazing they are. And our young people are amazing, and that's essentially what we try and do is get them to recognise how amazing they are and then have a plan that will help them to achieve their full potential. And that's what Jadera's done.

Angela Walker: 14:51

And what kind of activities do you do at the Academy then?

David Okoro: 14:54

Oh gosh, we do so much, um, we do lots of different things at the academy. We run lots of different programs. Um, some of the programs I mean, I can talk about what we do all day and I'm sure you haven't got time for all of it but, um, the key thing we do, as I said to you before, is we we focus confidence, self-esteem, motivation and aspirations, and we do a wide range of different activities and also one-on-one conversations as well and one-on-one mentoring. We have a really fantastic team of mostly volunteers who give up their time to come and do either group mentoring or one-on-one mentoring with our young people, and also one of the things that we do as well. We have a programme which is called Project Genius.

David Okoro: 15:41

And what Project Genius does? It exposes our young people to people who look like them, who are doing amazing things out there. You know, whether it's in business, whether it's in law, whether it's in business, whether it's in law, whether it's in finance, whatever it is medicine our young people have been introduced to Hollywood actors, judges, lawyers, accountants, business people, doctors, dentists who look like them and people who've walked the same streets as them and have come from similar backgrounds to them, and automatically that's the source of inspiration. Hang on a minute. You're from Halston and now you run your own business, but I'm from Halston, so why can't I do it? So, when our young people are exposed to positive images of themselves, that's a source of inspiration. If you can do it, why can can't I? And then also, what some of those people do is they act as mentors, not just role models or gold models, as some people call them. They act as mentors so they can have a conversation and say well, look, this is how I did it. These are the problems that I had to overcome. This is the plan that might be of benefit to you and that really helps to inspire and encourage and motivate young people to think big, think big and aim high. So that's one of our programmes, which is Project Genius.

David Okoro: 17:06

We also have our scholars programme, which Chidera is a beneficiary, and we work in partnership with boarding schools around the country and young people who come through the programme and pass all of the necessary tests and the interviews. You know they're not handed a place. Chidera wasn't handed a place. She had to be tested, she had to be interviewed, she had to compete. But our job is to make sure that Chidera has the confidence that will enable her to compete. She has everything else, but we want to make sure she has the confidence and she has the self-belief that will make her believe. I don't care if I'm only one of 10 black young people in a school where there are hundreds of other children who don't look like me. I'm not only going to come to this school, but I'm going to excel in this school. And then what happens is then Shadera becomes a role model for other young people in the academy who will say hang on, shadera was sitting next to me in that glass chair and now she's in a £40,000 a year boarding school. She will then become an inspiration to other young people, and that's what we do.

David Okoro: 18:15

We have a peer mentoring programme as well, so young people who have completed the programme and have gone on to university or set up their own businesses or gone into really fantastic jobs. They then come back and mentor other young people who sat where they sat a few years before. So, yeah, we have a wide variety of programmes. We have a health and fitness programme as well, which is called Fit to Lead, where we focus on health and social skills and health and social skills for our young people.

David Okoro: 18:48

We have a parent program which is called parent university. We have to do this in partnership with parents. It's not, you know, just send children to us for a few hours a week and everything's fine. There are also aspects of the parents life that we have to work on as well, and so that's part of our parent university and the one-on-one work that we do with parents as well, because we have parents who have been scarred by the education system and may not value it as much because of their own experiences. So we have to overcome and tackle and challenge some of the baggage that parents have in order for them to better support their children as well and, of course, all these projects, mentoring schemes and and so forth.

Angela Walker: 19:37

It costs a lot of money, david. Where do you get the funding from?

David Okoro: 19:42

well, um, the academies are not in a position to employ full-time staff, so I run a business outside of what I do for the academies. The academies don't necessarily pay us, because if that was the case, we wouldn't have academies. So we apply for funding from grants and from charitable trusts which help to maintain us. We also ask for contributions from parents as well. We do our own fundraising also and, if I'm being honest, in the early days we put money into the academies to ensure that those academies survived, and that's because we recognise how important they are. If we sat around and waited for the government or for local authorities to support us, young people like Chidera wouldn't have access to what we do. It just wouldn't happen, because in the 14 years we have ran our academies, for only two years of those 14 years that we received funding from a local authority.

Angela Walker: 20:49

If anyone's listening, then they can contact me if they want to make a donation to the academy and the great work that you do.

Angela Walker: 20:57

Now we know that there's a link between a lack of education and people going to prison, and there's a disproportionate number of young black men who are going to prison. Um, and there's a disproportionate number of young black men who are going to prison. So what can be done as a society? Obviously there's the great work that you're doing, but on a on a broader scale, because you can't help everybody. What can be done to break this cycle?

David Okoro: 21:23

um, yeah, that's a great question actually. And, um, I think, if we can tackle some of the socioeconomics that are the drivers for people, um, who get involved in crime. Um, so, high levels of unemployment um, I think the last statistics indicated that 40 of black young men are unemployed um, also, the numbers of young people black young people in particular, black boys in particular who were excluded from schools, the number of black families who were living in poor housing, temporary housing or homeless these are some of the issues that need to be tackled. All of this contributes towards people being involved in crime. But, if I'm being honest with you, the biggest issue for black young people is not an involvement in crime, it's a general underachievement. And that general underachievement then becomes a cycle. If you underachieve, if you're forced to live in poor social housing, if you're forced to go to a school, then you have children. Then in some cases, in many cases and lots of statistics and reports have shown this the cycle will continue unless there is intervention. Now that intervention might be at a micro stage, like what we're trying to do, but really it needs to be at a macro stage, it needs to be at a high level.

David Okoro: 22:52

This is government intervention on a big scale, and I remember years ago I was asked to do a report for the then Labour government that looked at underachievement in black boys. It was called the REACH report and we came up with a number of suggestions. Only one of them was taken on board, to be fair, which was about role models. But PricewaterhouseCoopers did some work for us and what they said is that the underachievements of black young people cost and this was about. This was 15-16 years ago. They said the underachievements of black young people cost about a billion pounds a year to the economy and what they said is that if we put some money in the front end, we would save hundreds of millions at the back end, and those hundreds of millions was obviously, you know, unemployment, access to mental health services, criminal justice and so on and so forth.

David Okoro: 23:47

If we had a range of interventions at the front end which can only be done by government, it would save hundreds of millions, hundreds of millions. But nobody is prepared to make that jump. And now we've got the perfect excuses because you know this state of the a much there isn't much money in the coffers to invest in some of that stuff. Then, unfortunately, the cycle continues and it's left to organizations like ourselves to try and impact as many people as we can at a micro level. So there's very little we can do. We can only impact the small numbers of people who we work with and we work with um at our academies on a saturday about 150 50 young people. There are thousands of young people we could work with if we were adequately supported, not only in london but around the uk as well and how many young people have you worked with in total?

Angela Walker: 24:46

do you think david through your academies?

David Okoro: 24:48

It would be thousands, because one of the things we do as well as we when we have funding, we do programmes in schools.

David Okoro: 24:54

So we run after schools programmes, primarily in the northwest London area, and we've worked with thousands of young people in the last 14 years.

David Okoro: 25:06

Sometimes that intervention is only a short one, it's not a long-term one like our academies. So it might be, for, you know, 10 sessions during the course of a term, which is great, and we've seen the positive. The teachers and the young people and the parents have told us the positive impacts that just the 10 week onehour session has had upon their children. That is a school who we work with quite closely that has demonstrated that that 10-week programme has helped those young people to achieve better GCSEs and, you know, prevented exclusions etc. Etc. So we know it works. The people who we work with know it works. But the difficult part is is it is is trying to encourage the people who hold the purse strings to invest, to really make a difference. As I say, we could, we could work with thousands of young people across across london and across the country, but unfortunately with the meager resources that we have, we can only focus on a couple of geographical areas in London.

Angela Walker: 26:09

It sounds like a no-brainer, doesn't it? Invest some money up front, help young people get better prospects, get better educated, keep them on the straight and narrow. They won't commit crime, they'll have great careers, they'll stay out of trouble and they'll contribute to society.

David Okoro: 26:24

So you guys need a big cash injection up front so you can roll out your academy to more boroughs, I guess absolutely, and you know, for me, as I said before, it's not crime is an issue, but the biggest issue is the underachievement and the impact that has upon the individual, their families and on society. So, for example, chidera will become a top doctor sometime. I think that's what you want to do, isn't it? Chidera medicine?

David Okoro: 26:53

yeah so sometime in the future, chidera will be a top doctor, um, and she will go on to earn lots of money. She will go on to pay lots of tax. That tax will then go into the country's coffers, which can then be invested into public services. If that didn't happen, for example, and Chidera ended up in a low paying job, then there is an investment that the country is missing out on, and then also the impact that Chidera will have upon her family, and so on, and so on, and so on, and so on. It's a ripple effect, isn't it Angela? And so on, and so on. It's a ripple effect, isn't it Angela? It's a ripple effect. So, if you have lots of chideras, if you have thousands of chideras just imagine the benefits thousands of you going out doing your good work.

Angela Walker: 27:48

Tell us a bit more about because I wanted to come on to that your um, your, your goals for the future. David's touched on it. You plan to be a doctor.

Chidera Nome: 27:56

Tell us about that, yes, um, ever since I was little, I've always wanted to be a doctor and study medicine, and recently I did declare I wanted to be an anesthesiologist. But I've also started looking into midwifery and becoming a midwife, so going down the route of medicine and becoming a medical doctor.

Angela Walker: 28:15

Amazing, and hopefully, as you go through your studies, you'll get a chance to catch more of a glimpse at the various aspects of medicine and kind of see what you're drawn to. Amazing, and how do you feel when you think that you're a role model to other young people and that you could help them um have opportunities and follow their heart and chase those opportunities? Because they look at you and think I can do that too.

Chidera Nome: 28:43

I think still hearing that term that I'm a role model is is such a excellent thing to hear I don't know how to describe it. It's just such a a big term and I still don't feel like I'm a role model. But then I go into the academy and I go around and I see people coming up to me asking oh, how did you do it? You know how school, how did you even do it? I would love to do what you do and I'm like, wow, so you're inspired by what I have done.

Chidera Nome: 29:10

It's just so amazing to see how I have become a role model to our young people. So knowing that my story can inspire other people is such an amazing thing to hear, because I know that there are people walking on the streets now feeling hopeless, feeling as though their life is worth nothing and feeling as though they weren't going to their own life. So knowing that my story and who I am and what I've become through Wyler and through my education, knowing who I am and how I can inspire other people, it's just so. It's so amazing. I love knowing that my story can help other people become better.

Angela Walker: 29:49

And you were telling me just before we started recording, that you recently went on a sailing trip organized by the academy. Tell me about that, and you know how does a sailing trip help focus you and how does it benefit you when it comes to, like you know, education and career. Talk to us about that.

Chidera Nome: 30:10

So the sailing trip we went on it's a residential to Isle of Wight. It's called UKSA, so UK sailing academy in east cows, I think, yes, east cows. Um, we go on residential yearly, I think ever since 2021 we've started going and I've been every year since. I absolutely love it. And one big, well, one big thing, one big lesson I've learned whilst going to these residentials is my team building skills have 100% improved. I mentioned before we started recording that we have this raft building activity that we do as a team. So you get into teams, you come up with a team name, a team song, everything, and then you build the raft, working together as a team in such you know, such close environments because we all live together, we all live in dorms. So, even working together outside of the activities, it's really helped me improve my collaboration. Going back to school after going on these residential trips, I've noticed that I find it easier to work in a team. I find it easier to voice my opinions whenever I'm working with other people. So if that's helped me, I know that it's helped other people too.

Chidera Nome: 31:12

There are so many different lessons that you can learn there. You can learn your confidence as well. We do water confidence at the start of every single kind of week. So on the same day that we arrive, we do water confidence. We go into the water, learn to get used to it. And it's not just water confidence, it's confidence as well having the confidence to try out new things, having the confidence to try new activities, to get to know new people, because this is a collaboration of Westside and Lewisham so you don't always know the people that you're going on these residentials with. So getting to know those people, getting to collaborate with them, after just the first day we're already acting like a family. So you know it really helps your confidence, it really builds your collaboration and I love going on the residentials.

Angela Walker: 31:52

That sounds brilliant. And, david, what's it like for you know, there might be some really underprivileged kids that are taking part in these sailing opportunities and residential trips and stuff. What impact do you see it have on them? Because it sounds kind of like transformational really.

David Okoro: 32:09

Absolutely. It's transformational and I know from my own experience. I didn't have the opportunity to do, you know, to go on some of the residentials that Chidera is talking about, and this year we had our first international residential where we took 20 young people to the Gambia for a week and that was life-changing. So it does really make a difference, especially taking people out of inner-city London to a small place like Cowes, which is completely different to Brent or to Lewisham or you know, wherever our young people live. And Shidera's right. One of the things that it does it helps to give you confidence because you're learning new skills. It also takes you out of your comfort zone as well, which is really, really important, and it challenges you. It challenges you and it also gives you a whole new, different outlook on life. When you have learned how to sail a one million pound yacht around cows and you've had to work as a team in order to do that, it just gives you a different perspective on life.

David Okoro: 33:16

And I remember the first time we went and some young people went into the water during the water confidence and what really struck me was a couple of them said to me sir, the water tastes salty. I said what do you mean? The water tastes salty and then. But then it kind of hit me, they'd never been to the seaside before, so they've never been into the sea. Some people would just see that as that's a normal thing that I do with my family, or that's a normal thing that I do regularly with friends, but for some of our young people that was the first time they'd gone into the sea and tasted salt water.

David Okoro: 33:53

For many of us that may be a small thing, but for but you know, for them that was a, that was a huge thing, that they had had an opportunity to go away. Um, and ordinarily most of our young people wouldn't be able to, or their families wouldn't be able to pay for that experience. Sailing is very expensive, it's elitist for a reason, and you need lots of money to learn how to sail. So it was great. It was great giving them that experience, because you wouldn't ordinarily get an opportunity to do that.

Angela Walker: 34:25

I know some private schools go to UKSA, but if you're from a state school it's highly unlikely that you will have an opportunity to go on a sailing residential to cows, which is the one of the international sailing centres of the world on one hand, it makes me feel really sad that there are a lot of young disadvantaged people who haven't even had the chance to go to the seaside and swim in the sea and, on the other hand, it fills me with hope that there's organisations out there, like your academy, that are giving young people the opportunity. But you know, we need to see more opportunities like that. How hopeful are you that we can see a brighter future for young people from disadvantaged backgrounds, from Caribbean descent? How hopeful are you, david?

David Okoro: 35:20

You know what I'm really hopeful in terms of. I'm fortunate enough to work with some amazing people who are dedicated to the young people who they work with. I mean, you know people who have got other jobs, have got their own families, but every Saturday they're there. They're there every Saturday and I find that really inspiring. You know they're not getting paid. They volunteer to make a difference to the lives of the young people who they are mentoring and working with. I also work with amazing other voluntary organisations in our communities who you know don't get a lot of publicity, certainly don't have a lot of money, but once again you see dedicated people who give up their time and also dedicate their money to make a difference. That fills me with hope.

David Okoro: 36:07

I'm not completely hopeful about the current political situation. I haven't seen or heard anything from the new government that makes me think, wow, you are really going to make a difference to the lives of young people. I just don't see that. I'm afraid and one of the things I always say to people in our community, to parents and to young people we simply can't rely on the government to support us. We have no evidence over the last 50, 60 years that any government has done so. So why do we suddenly feel in the next five to ten years there will be any difference?

David Okoro: 36:43

We have a government that hasn't um it's not really registered um any intention to do anything that focuses on black young people I mean young disadvantaged people anyway but black young people know. I haven't heard anything, unless I've missed something, and I did follow the campaign quite closely and I've not heard anything that would make me feel hopeful about what answers. The politicians have to make a difference at our level and working with the people who I work with. So we have to rely upon ourselves and um that that is our challenge. Anything that we get from the government in terms of support or recognition is a bonus, but we simply can't rely upon them. Um, we, we haven't had much support in the last 50, 60 years and I can't see that changing, I'm afraid.

Angela Walker: 37:35

There is such a gap, isn't there? I mentioned earlier, 29% of boys of Black Caribbean descent are likely to achieve a grade five or above in GCSE English and maths, compared with 47% when it comes to their white peers. That is such a gap A huge gap. It is a huge gap.

David Okoro: 37:58

For me, that is a national scandal. It's an absolute national scandal, because we all know what happens when young people are undereducated. We know what happens. So any responsible government or leader which should be trying to address that, because if you want to have a fair country, it has to be fair for everybody. It can't just be fair for a privileged few, it has to be fair for everybody. And if you want to increase the country's GDP, what you want is everybody to be educated and skilled. That's what does it. And but, as I say, I've not seen. I've not seen anything from our current government that makes me think, um, they've got our back, or anybody's back to, but definitely when it comes from a black community perspective well, you are doing great work, davis.

Angela Walker: 38:51

If anyone's listening and they want to, uh, find out more about the academy, I'll put your website link into the show notes. And Chidera, you are such an inspiration, you're such an eloquent young lady and I know that you're going to be such a success in your chosen profession, whether you go into anesthesiology or midwifery, as you were mentioning earlier and the world is your oyster and I world is your oyster and I know that you're just going to go out there and grab all these opportunities with both hands. So thank you both so much for coming on the programme. It's been a privilege to talk to you.

David Okoro: 39:28

Thank you, Angela.

Angela Walker: 39:29

Thank you. You've been listening to Angela Walker in Conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast. Please rate it and share it with others, and do check out other episodes of this human interest podcast. You can contact me through my website, angelawalkerreportscom. Until next time, take care.