Angela Walker In Conversation - Inspirational Interviews, Under-Reported News
For news lovers everywhere. Join former BBC reporter and broadcast journalist Angela Walker as she engages in thought-provoking conversations with inspirational individuals about current affairs and under-reported issues. We examine stories mainstream media don’t cover: issues of social justice and campaigns that aim to improve society and the world we live in. We look at issues around government, climate change, the environment and world around us. In this podcast, we aim to shed light on important topics that often go unnoticed, providing a platform for insightful discussions with our guests.
From activists and social entrepreneurs to academics and community leaders, these individuals bring their expertise and experiences to the table. Through their stories, we explore the challenges they have overcome, their motivations, and the lessons they have learned along the way. We examine issues of social justice and campaigns that aim to improve society and the world we live in.
If you have an inquiring mind and enjoy BBC Radio 4, The Today Programme, PM, The World At One, Panorama, Despatches, documentaries and interview programmes then this is the place for you.
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Angela Walker In Conversation - Inspirational Interviews, Under-Reported News
SURVIVING CHILD ABUSE John Cardamone's journey from victim to mentor
In this conversation, John Cardamone shares his personal journey of healing from childhood abuse and explains how he helps families, schools and organisations create better connections with children, so they are happy and confident - and able to confide if things go wrong.
John explains how his mum's reaction when he disclosed be was being abused by a family member was critical in enabling him to get help and recover.
He discusses the importance of accountability for abusers and the societal responsibility to address child sexual abuse effectively, in the light of the Church of England scandal that saw the resignation of Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury who failed to report prolific child abuser John Smyth to police.
John highlights his coping mechanisms, including the significance of connection and belonging, and introduces practical tools for families to communicate about body safety and empower children. The discussion underscores the need for a shift in societal attitudes towards child abuse and the importance of creating safe spaces for children to express themselves.
https://johncardamone.com.au/
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/
Hi listener. I thought you might enjoy Don Anderson's podcast. Missing Pieces - NPE Life is a podcast that curates stories of and about people who find out, usually through a home DNA test, that someone in their family tree isn't who they thought. They also tell stories of adoptees who've found lost family, or are looking. The host, Don Anderson, found out in 2021 that his dad wasn't his dad. It changed his life. NPE stands for Not Parent Expected or Non Paternity Event.
https://www.angelawalkerreports.com/
A warning before we start. This episode deals with the distressing issue of child sex abuse. A survivor of child sexual abuse says he's in disbelief at the leniency shown towards offenders. I'm journalist, angela Walker, and in this podcast I talk to inspirational people and discuss underreported issues. My guest today was just six years old when a family member started abusing him, and he's dedicated his life to helping children and families. His name is John Cardamone. John, thank you so much for talking to us today. I do want to ask you about those high-profile cases that have been in the news recently, but first I know you want to share your own story with us, which I do think is an incredibly brave thing to do. Why is that so important to you, to share your story about what's happened to you?
John Cardamone:Thank you and thank you for having me on. It's an absolute pleasure. And, yes, I just thank you for the work that you do to give people like me a voice. So, yeah, really appreciate you taking the time. So just wanted to say that first.
John Cardamone:But just a bit of background born and bred in Australia, if you couldn't tell by my accent. And yeah, when I was six years old I started to get sexually abused by a family member. That happened for two years and throughout that two years I do still have memories of trying to disclose what was happening to me, but I just couldn't find the words. I would suffocate with fear and I would be really scared as my perpetrator would use threats of violence against me and family members if I did share. So, as a six-, seven-year-old, that's obviously pretty scary and horrific.
John Cardamone:But what's really important, I guess, for your listeners to understand is I come from a pretty stereotypical, I should say, upbringing where I was really well connected, great circle of friends. You know, had a really great sense of belonging with my family. So you know, abuse, it certainly doesn't discriminate. So you know, abuse, it certainly doesn't discriminate. So I think people need to be aware that it can happen to any one of us, any child, no matter. You know the demographics.
John Cardamone:But what I'm really passionate about and I want to get across is when I did disclose to my mum, she believed me right away and I really do believe that right then and there. That started my healing process. I keep hearing that there's lots of children that are not believed by their own family and I find that like I just get angry and I think people need to know the way that people respond to. A disclosure can either start the healing process right away or it could prolong it, and I know for me when I was believed, I was able to get early intervention and that's helped me be the person that I am today. So hopefully that that little message gets across to your listeners that it's really important that we understand how to respond to a disclosure.
Angela Walker:Listeners that it's really important that we understand how to respond to a disclosure. That's such an important point, john, and you know, as a mother myself, it's something that we it's just horrific to think that that could happen to our children. And how can we be open to our kids if they come to us with this terrible revelation? What can we do to like make our children feel welcome, that they can open up to us and when they do, if they do, what action should we take?
John Cardamone:Yeah, it's a really great question, and I think it even starts before waiting for our children to come to us. The best way I can explain it is I work in a school, so our school system would be very much alike, I'm assuming. So, as an educator, our job is to set the preconditions for students to best learn in the class before they even step in the class. So the way we do that, um is ensuring that the class structure is suitable, there's space, there's not too many things up, because it'd be overstimulating. So we need to do the same things for our children. We need to set the preconditions, um, to allow our children to um speak to us to if they have anything they want to share that they can. And the way we do that is that we need to teach them.
John Cardamone:We're really good in our schools that we teach reading, writing and maths a lot of the time, but when do we have these conversations with our children about what does safe and unsafe mean? I mean, we just expect our six and seven-year-olds to know what it means, but they wouldn't. You know, what would they do if they felt unsafe? What are three steps that you can take? And for me, with my own kids. I consistently tell them and repeat it and reinforce it, what they need to do, what would you do if someone touched your private part? What they need to do, what would you do if someone touched your private part. So it's really getting down to. The nitty-gritty Language is so important that we're not beating around the bush.
John Cardamone:So, and again, it really comes down to setting the preconditions. So speaking to your children all of the time. If there is an issue, if there is a challenge, challenge, you can come and speak to mummy and daddy at any time. And I think I just want to make one point. And what helps is what helps with this if our children are having tantrums or meltdowns or they've been naughty, instead of sending them out to time out in their room, that's sending a clear message that we can't handle them and we don't want to be helping them because we're too stressed. They need time in. That's exactly when they need connection and a feeling, a sense of belonging. So it makes them feel safe. If we can do that consistently when they're feeling, um, when they're having a tangent, whatever it might be, if we can respond in a time in and build connection, that's going to really set the preconditions for them or the conditions for them to disclose.
Angela Walker:And are there warning signs that we can look out for, because children often misbehave anyway? How might we know that there's something that's really seriously wrong, above and beyond normal kind of childhood behaviour?
John Cardamone:Yeah, and it's really important. That's a really great question. Every behaviour is a form of communication. So we need to stop thinking from a punitive point of view that children are just acting out to be naughty. And you know, sometimes the um children act out and they're pushing the boundary, but there's all, that's even. There's a reason for that. So we need to think beyond on um that they're just kids are just being naughty. No, they're trying to tell us something.
John Cardamone:So for me, I had um changing behavior. So if we can shift from challenging to changing, so my it started to change over time. So some things was it was very unnatural for me to be aggressive, so I started to get aggressive and started hitting. So that was a changing behavior. I started to withdraw and I started to isolate, so not wanting to be around my friends when I was a very active and popular young boy. So there were major warning signs that my behavior was totally different. I would have regular meltdowns and tantrums.
John Cardamone:Um, I would show some signs and I've spoken to my mum about this, but but now that she looks back, I was displaying behaviours such as when I was in the car I would always look behind me constantly. So that's not normal behaviour, that's not even challenging behaviour. That's really unusual behaviour that I kept looking behind me and my mum. I remember her asking what are you doing, john? And I obviously didn't answer. So it's really looking out for those changing behaviors that seem unusual.
John Cardamone:So, yes, children display challenging behaviors and that's that's normal, because we want our children to push the boundaries, negotiate. That's part of um, their, their, um, them developing. But it's really when we see unusual um and changing behavior, but also any withdrawal or isolation, and I like to highlight that because when that comes into play, um, there's lots of evidence to say that's when mental health conditions and issues and challenges can really ramp up quite quickly when people, even adults, when they start, when we start to isolate and withdraw. So those are the things that I would be looking for, apart from the obvious of physical abuse, of bruising and that sort of thing. But yeah, those are the the under the water signs to see, if you like.
Angela Walker:So, john, you said that when you told your mum what was going on, she believed you straight away, and that really was instrumental in your healing process. What did your mum do when you told her what was going on?
John Cardamone:So my mum was really calm. So that's the number one key is to be calm, especially for children. She did not interrupt me, she wasn't angry or shocked, she didn't question me whether I was lying or whether it was just playing, or just swept it under the rug, so to speak. And after she listened to me she called the police. So and straight after that I was pretty much getting early intervention right away. So into GPs, psychologists, psychiatrists, you know, play therapy. This was in the early 1990s. So obviously we've come a long way. We've still got a long way to go, but that early intervention has been like, yeah, I can't.
John Cardamone:It just all comes back to how my mum responded. If she and there's evidence to say or to show that the way you respond, if you question, don't believe or you don't acknowledge or validate the person that is disclosing it, that can actually just do as much harm, if not more trauma, to what's actually happened. So I'm really passionate about, um, educating and informing on how to respond to disclosures. So, um, and you know what, just want to add on to that, my mum's, an italian, got an italian background, didn't understand english. You do not need to be a professional to understand how to respond to a disclosure, you just need to be a decent human. You don't even have to be decent, you just need to know how to listen and respond and can I ask was your abuser held to account?
Angela Walker:Did they pay a price for what they'd done?
John Cardamone:Yeah, they got a slap on the wrist, three counts, three charges, three counts. They got a correction order so they avoided jail and they had to do some course and you could only imagine back in the early 1990s. I'm not sure how beneficial that would have been. I'm sure these days they're a lot better. But, yeah, pretty much a slap on the wrist. But I think it's really important. I want to be a positive role model that I'm not angry about it, because, especially for young males who are very angry and display lots of anger, especially for young males who are very angry and display lots of anger, I think it's my responsibility to be able to be a positive role model that, although, yes, I went through angry times, but I want to channel that in doing some really good things, like you know, speaking to you and being a voice for others. So, yeah, that's what happened to him.
Angela Walker:So yeah, when it comes to the way that as a society we deal with child sex offenders, obviously it has a huge impact on victims. And I wanted to raise this really recent issue here in the UK, which is that Justin Welby he's the Archbishop of Canterbury, so he's the head of the Church of England he's just recently resigned because a report found that he could and should have reported John Smythe. This man was a prolific abuser connected with the church. He was a barrister, he was an evangelical Christian, a man of authority, authority, and he ran Christian summer camps in the 70s and 80s and he committed physical and sexual abuse against more than 100 boys and men. He actually had a purpose-built shed that he made which was soundproofed, where he would take these young boys and physically and sexually abuse them, and physically and sexually abused them.
Angela Walker:Now the Make In Review found that there was an active cover-up by people in the church and Smythe died before he could be held to account. And we know from this report that members of the church knew what was going on and they did not report it to the police. And if they had have done, they could have saved many young boys from being abused because Smythe had the opportunity to leave and he went to another country and he carried on abusing there as a survivor. What are your thoughts when you hear that story?
John Cardamone:Like I was saying, I want to be a really good role model, but, uh, and not be angry, but that really angers me, um, and I think it would anger anyone, um, and it just goes to show, although we've come a long way as a society, as as, as I was going to say, as a nation, but as, um, as different continents, I think we're we're on the same path and I think we're making way, but it just goes to show we've still got a long way to go If, as a society and when I say society, I encompass all of our nations if we're going to accept that.
John Cardamone:You know, it's an absolute disgrace I'm being polite and I'm not going to swear on your podcast, but it's an absolute disgrace that we're still at a stage where we're not holding people to account. And if we do, it's an absolute slap on the wrist, because if this was happening to an older man or an older woman, you know, usually it's considered rape, yeah, and then usually there's more serious consequences some of the time not all the time, but when it comes to child sexual abuse and when we say that it's actually rape, yeah so.
John Cardamone:I'm not shy on that, because that's exactly what it is. So I feel like when we say child abuse, it's, it's a bit of a cover-up. It's actually, and I know abuse can look differently. So, and I know rape, um, you know I'm not going to go into the details.
Angela Walker:Well, I think language is so important. Language is so important. We recently had a situation in the UK where there were people where there were some riots, and it was race riots, it was racist riots and I was like, let's call it what it is, these are racist riots and I think it's the same. Yeah, child sex abuse, it's the rape of children and yeah, let's be clear about that. We had another thing recently where a former BBC presenter was given a six month suspended sentence, hugh Edwards. He was very, very senior and he admitted accessing indecent images of children as young as seven. What message are we sending out, do you think, to victims and perpetrators, if we're just giving a suspended sentence and not a custodial sentence for for images like that and that was children being raped?
John Cardamone:it's. It's like I said. I think as a community, we need to send a strong message, like, especially in I like to say developed countries like or countries in the UK and Australia. You know we set the standard along with the USA and other countries in Europe. So we have to set the standard and hold these people to account and not give suspended sentences. It should be a rule. If there's any kind of child abuse, whether it's physical, sexual neglect, you are going to be held to the full account of the law, and maybe the law needs to change because it's not. You know, if you did a vote with the community, what sentence should these people have? It wouldn't be a suspended sentence, it'd be a jail term. We would consider this if a male raped a woman or vice versa. You know, usually I'm not, you know, right into the thick of the court system, but usually you're looking at, you know, years.
Angela Walker:So why is this?
John Cardamone:different for our children.
Angela Walker:Well, we still have issues with the number of rape cases actually that even make it to trial. I mean, that's a whole other podcast. But yeah, the system needs a shake-up when it comes to sexual violence, that's for sure. So how are you now? You're a dad yourself. To what extent have you managed to heal, because you seem like such a rounded person, john, and you know, and you've really channeled all of this hurt and pain that happened to you into doing good. How are you?
John Cardamone:So throughout my life I've had but nothing, you know nothing that I haven't been able to manage seeing professionals, but I haven't been triggered too much. I've been indirectly triggered at different points of time, but overall not too bad considering what happened over a two-year period. But two years ago I was triggered like big time and what that entailed was that my son was becoming the same age as when I was abused and, yeah, that really triggered. So I had to work through that, which I did. But I think for me, the three biggest things and my three biggest pillars that I want to share with your audience, if they are going through something similar or they're not sure how to go about it is one that's out of their control, but I was really lucky that my mum believed me and responded in the way.
John Cardamone:That's absolutely number one. But my two biggest ones is connection and having a sense of belonging. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's actually quite simple what we all need, it's just water, food, shelter, love and love and a sense of belonging. And although it is simple, I understand it is quite complex and not everyone gets that. But but as an adult and throughout my life I've been involved in sporting groups you know community groups and there's lots of evidence what that does to the brain.
John Cardamone:So I'm not a scientist but I'm absolutely trauma aware and what trauma does to the child's brain and how you can recover from that and you can actually rewire your brain through connection and having a sense of belonging. So that would be my two recommendations that people can have some sort of control.
Angela Walker:And I know on your website that you've got some really fantastic family resources, and I want to ask you first about this family contract. What's that all about, dom? I want to ask you first about this family contract.
John Cardamone:What's that all about, dom? Yeah, so the family contract was actually quite simple for me to conjure up, but it's really about bringing the family together. And we know in this world and I keep saying it, but I'm UK and Australia, I'm sure, very similar in the way families are raised that there's two working parents so there's less time with children. And can I just say children spell love using a different four-letter word. Did you want to have a guess what that four-letter word is?
Angela Walker:I don't want to have a guess. No, Is it need or something like that's it's time oh yeah it's time.
John Cardamone:Children just want to spend time with us. So it's really important that we invest the time. And it sounds so simple and I understand that it's a challenge for families, but there's absolutely no excuse like. That's just the way I see it and I know it's harder, but our children deserve the time and not just to be given an iPad to be babysat because we're tired. We're all tired and we're all doing it tough. We've all been through something, whether it's trauma, but the contract is. It's all about empowering children.
John Cardamone:So when they have a say in what happens within the household, um, and it's around about building value, so it's not about building rules, because that's a negative connotation. But what do we value? So, instead of saying rule number one there's no running in the house if that's driving you crazy, well, we value. So, instead of saying rule number one, there's no running in the house, if that's driving you crazy, well, we value being safe in the house by walking, if that's what it is. Instead of saying no iPads at the table, we value our family time. So everyone's going to put their phones away and their iPads away, like really simple sort of stuff. So the contract's about bringing everyone in the household together and coming up with a contract. So what are the five things that we value in our household and what are the expectations? And really asking the children and as young as I've done it with my children and they're four and six and they're able to articulate because we've set those preconditions for them what that looks like.
Angela Walker:I love this. I love this idea.
John Cardamone:Yeah, I'm going to do this for my kids yeah.
John Cardamone:Yeah, and you know what. You don't even have to download my contract. It's really just starting conversations, but I know people need structure and you know what. You don't even have to download my contract. It's really just starting conversations, but I know people need structure and you know they need prompts. So absolutely go to the website. It's free to download and it's just really starting conversations.
John Cardamone:But the key thing is yes, as parents, we're in control. Yes, we're the boss, we're the manager, all of that. But times have changed. They're not in the 50s, 60s and 70s where you do what I say, because now it's more you do what I do and you're role modelling and you're giving children the empowerment to make decisions and you're setting the conditions for them and giving them permission to talk, and that you're making them feel valued because you're getting input, what I was going to say, the rules, what we value and what the expectations are.
John Cardamone:And on top of that, because as parents we like to measure things and give rewards ask the children if these values and expectations are followed, what would be a fair and reasonable reward? And you know, if it's oh, just want to go out for ice cream, well, great. And then I ask the question what's a fair and reasonable consequence? So it's not punishment, but what's the and you could even change consequence. So it's being really transparent and it's being really predictable, because children these days they're a little bit more anxious. And it's been really predictable, because children these days they're a little bit more anxious and that's another podcast. But what kills anxiety is being predictable, having structure and routines, and I could keep going, but I'm mindful I'm not talking too much oh, the family contract is a brilliant idea.
Angela Walker:Tell me another thing you've got these body safety cards now. Now, what's that all about, john?
John Cardamone:So the body safety cards I actually today just got my physical sample and I can race over and get them. They're on the table, but currently on my website I have a digital set that people can download. But they're really encouraging cards to encourage families to be talk to our children on how they can be body safe. So it's really easy and it's quite. I was going to say common sense, but I understand if you're not in the education of this, it's not and I completely understand that. So I really want to make it common sense. I really make it explicit and really easy and I'll break it down. So what do you need to do? From zero to two years old and yes, yes, I understand that children at six months won't understand what you're saying but it's about setting in the routines for the parents to start explaining and naming the medical terms of our private body parts. So it just goes through the different age groups and explains to parents very explicitly how to teach them to keep their body safe. I also have added sentence starters. So, for example, what does safe mean? That's a really big question for a five-year-old, let me tell you. So it really starts a conversation around showing and telling, demonstrating, role modelling.
John Cardamone:What does safe mean? What does unsafe mean? What are three things that you can do. If you start to feel unsafe and you'll hear my daughter and she's already got an attitude she'll say if you start to feel unsafe and you, you'll hear my daughter and she's already got an attitude she'll um, she'll say you need to stop. Okay, that's good. What happens if they don't stop? I need to go away to a safe place. Okay, what about if they follow you? I need to tell a safe adult. Okay, after you tell a safe adult, what do you do? I need to tell mummy and daddy. There's another question what about if they say I'm going to hurt mummy and daddy or I'm going to hurt you? What would you do? I'm going to tell mummy and daddy, but what about if you're feeling so? It goes on and on. So there's lots of sentence starters.
Angela Walker:So these cards sound brilliant. John, Can you talk us through a couple of?
John Cardamone:them there, sure. So, for example, this is zero to two at the back and these are like flashcards. So, you know, in foundation years they might have letters and I'm not sure if you use them in the UK. I'm sure you do. Yeah, but that's why I designed them as like a flash card.
John Cardamone:So if you turn them over, it just gives you really simple of what you need to do zero to two, and it just says use correct terms for private body parts. Ensure this is repeated and reinforced and then ensure that you point to the body part that you are referring to. Continue to use correct terms, especially during bath or shower time. So, not overcomplicated, that's all you need to do. And this is all evidence-based research from my lived experience, but also, yeah, evidence that's out there. So that's just an example. Then we have two to three, we've got three to six and then we have six to 11. And so when we get a little bit older, there's a few more dot points, but things like you know, reinforce the three steps to be safe, role model, how to be safe in front of your child. So really not just saying it, but really role modeling what that looks like. Reinforce that private body parts are private and this includes their mouth. So a lot of people think that because you can see their mouth, it's not private. Absolutely, that's um really important.
John Cardamone:Just one more thing we also in this age that we teach about early danger signs so just quickly, um, so early danger signs. So these are warning signs that the body's trying to um, give us clues that we're not, we're not feeling 100%. So there's just a few examples, like I need to go to the toilet, my body's starting to shake, and what I love about this is then you can, because everyone's body acts differently, so you can do it with your child and what it means for them. So they're prepared, it's predictable and they feel more safe. And then another activity which is pretty common I mean you could do it without the card, but it's coming up with five trusted adults that they know that they can talk to any time. So it's not about listing them, but it's talking to the trusted adult to ensure that they've been listed and that they need to be believed the child unconditionally if they do talk. And one more it's just I've called it John's Steps to Keep your Body Safe. So just go through three simple steps. Yeah, love that.
John Cardamone:They're on the website, ready to be used, and I'm only an email away, and let me tell you I'm committed and passionate about this, so I'm happy to be contacted at any time and try and help anyone that needs supporting this area.
Angela Walker:Oh, thanks, john, and your passion for looking after children and helping families. It just really shines through and we've got a great. Uh, there's a great song that my friend directed me to and it's by the NSPCC and it's called Pantosaurus. You can find it on YouTube if anyone's listening, and it's by the nspcc and it's called pantosaurus. You can find it on youtube if anyone's listening, and it's about what's in your pants belongs only to you, and it's got a really fun tune and there's a little cartoon of a kind of dinosaur, pantosaurus. And you know, my three-year-old sings that and it's really good because it's just creating that awareness about this part of my body is private and no one's allowed to touch it. And if they do, then I can tell an adult and I'm not going to get into trouble for it, and that's really the message that you you're giving with your um initiatives as well, isn't it so?
John Cardamone:absolutely and I'd just like to quickly share also um, another recess that I have is it's called Be Calmer, so it's a disclosure framework to help people to know how to respond if there is a disclosure, because you can never be if you're unprepared. It can really. It can be really difficult, so I highly recommend anyone it's again, I've got a cheat sheet you can download for free and it's just a one-pager, nothing too difficult because I know in this world we're always in a rush, but I highly recommend people to download that. If you want any more information, I've got other resources that goes a bit more explicitly, but at the end of the day, that one pager will absolutely be a great start.
Angela Walker:And remind us of your website, john, and I'll put it in the show notes for this podcast as well, but what's your website where these resources are?
John Cardamone:It's johncardamone, so j-o-h-n-c-a-r-d-a-m-o-n-e dot com, dot, au.
Angela Walker:John, thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your story. I'm so sorry about what happened to you, but I love the way that you've managed to channel everything that happened to you into such positivity, so thank you so much for joining us today.
Angela Walker:Thank you for giving me the time and space to be able to talk about this really important subject and topic if you've been affected by any of the issues raised in this episode of angela walker in conversation, you can contact the nspcc online or you can phone them if you're in the uk, on 0808 805 000. Thank you listening. Please share this podcast so other people can hear this important information, and you can find more of my work on my website Angela Walker reportscom. Until next time, take care.
