Angela Walker In Conversation - Inspirational Interviews, Under-Reported News

TRUMP'S WAR ON DIVERSITY: Inclusivity Leader Mo Kanjilal on the Impact in the UK

• Angela Walker

Share episode

Send us a text

What effect will Donald Trump's crackdown on diversity have on the UK?

He's scrapping all the government's Diversity, Equity and Inclusion programmes and sent all the staff home.

Diversity isn't just about compliance—it's about transforming workplaces and societies - that's the view of Mo Kanjilal, a leading voice in diversity and inclusion.

Join me, journalist Angela Walker, as I sit down with Mo to investigate the ripple effects of Donald Trump's policies on both sides of the Atlantic. We unpack the rollback of diversity programs and protections for marginalised groups, exploring how these actions might shape corporate cultures in the UK and feed into broader societal attitudes. Mo sheds light on the root causes of resistance to diversity, often born out of fear and misunderstanding, while also addressing the persistent challenges and discrimination faced by women and minorities in professional settings. Our conversation extends to the alarming rise of racism, fuelled by international rhetoric, stressing the urgency of fostering inclusive environments.

https://www.watchthisspace.uk/

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Inclusion-Journey-Creating-strategy-engagement/dp/1398616729/

#DiversityAndInclusion
#EquityMatters
#InclusionJourney
#DiversityAtWork
#BreakingBarriers
#MoKanjilal
#TransformingWorkplaces
#InclusionMatters
#EndDiscrimination
#WomenInLeadership
#DiversityUnderAttack
#TrumpPolicies
#GlobalImpact
#RacismAwareness
#SocialJustice
#InclusiveFuture
#StandForChange
#MakeWorkplacesInclusive
#FearVsUnderstanding
#EqualityForAll




Hi listener. I thought you might enjoy Don Anderson's podcast. Missing Pieces - NPE Life is a podcast that curates stories of and about people who find out, usually through a home DNA test, that someone in their family tree isn't who they thought. They also tell stories of adoptees who've found lost family, or are looking.  The host, Don Anderson, found out in 2021 that his dad wasn't his dad. It changed his life. NPE stands for Not Parent Expected or Non Paternity Event.

Support the show

https://www.angelawalkerreports.com/

ANGELA WALKER:

US President Donald Trump is eliminating the country's diversity and inclusion programs, claiming they discriminate against white men. He's cracking down on immigrants and asylum seekers and repealing laws that protect trans people, but what effect might Trump's policies have here in the UK? I'm journalist, angela Walker, and in this podcast, I talk to inspirational people and discuss under-reported issues. My guest today is diversity and inclusion expert and author, mo Kangelal. First, though, while you're here, please subscribe, like and comment. If you're watching this on YouTube, or if you're listening, please follow and review this podcast. That will mean it's recommended to other people. Hi, mo, thank you so much for joining me at this incredibly interesting time for diversity. Thanks for being here. Thanks for inviting me.

MO KANJILAL:

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to talking about this more. It's something that I've been talking about with so many people, with so much going on in the world. So, yeah, really looking forward to talking about this.

ANGELA WALKER:

I mean, you've dedicated your whole career to diversity and inclusion, so how do you feel when you see these kind of policies that Donald Trump's rolling out?

MO KANJILAL:

I feel sad because it shows that he and the people around him and people who support what he's doing don't actually understand what diversity and inclusion policies are about, what the work's about, and I think it's all it comes from a place of fear. It's fear that somehow things are going to be taken away from them. I think that's the root cause of where a lot of this comes from and their feelings of superiority. That mostly makes me feel sad. Of course, it does make me feel angry too, but I try and just control that and think right, what do we do now? Because that's really what we have to think about, like, what do we do, what impact it's going to have on this country, how we can kind of level conversations about this kind of thing.

ANGELA WALKER:

What impact do you think it's having here then, when people in our country see, well, the us is just scrapping diversity programs, so I mean, what? What impact does that have on us, do you think as a community so?

MO KANJILAL:

first of all, I think it's important to say that diversity and inclusion work isn't about checking boxes and filling in forms and that kind of compliance. There's an element to that. You know we have things like gender pay gap reporting in this country, but it's actually about transformational ways of working that include everyone. It's you know, it's about much bigger things than that kind of compliance and, in a way, this will show those that thought it was just about checking some boxes and perhaps saying things they thought you should say. It will kind of highlight, actually, who does understand what this is about. So I think there will be an impact, particularly companies that are global companies that perhaps have US offices or US owned companies where they have an office here. You know those kinds of companies are going to see challenges, but, broadly speaking, people who understand this kind of work understand what it's actually about. It's about transforming places, making workplaces better, and there's such a strong business case as to why it makes for better organisations.

ANGELA WALKER:

So it's going to take some time, but there's still all of that work to do yeah, it's so interesting what you said about it comes from a place of fear because, you know, I guess white businessmen like donald trump, they've been at the top of the tree forever and I don't think they, you know, it's like they don't want to see other people raised up. But raising everybody else up doesn't mean bringing them down, does it?

MO KANJILAL:

That's the thing. That's what I mean by the place of fear. So there are lots of people that like to tell me that they don't see there's a problem, that they don't see color, they don't see gender. You know that everything's fine for them Because it is For people in, you know, dominant groups. Things are largely fine.

MO KANJILAL:

What this is about is encouraging ways of working and organizations and buildings and websites and all these things that mean that it it levels and so that everybody can be included. And when we talk about these things, I often use the example of a building or a website. That's a good way to talk to people about it. So if a website is made accessible, so it has color contrast subtitles on videos, you know all of the accessibility features that you want to see in a website. You haven't taken anything away from anybody. You've just made a better experience for everyone, and that's what we mean. So often I take it to things like that when I'm talking to people so that they don't start to feel defensive. It's like it's a good way of explaining what we mean by this that's such a good analogy.

ANGELA WALKER:

and also, um, I often have men saying um, women aren't discriminated against because they've never experienced it in the way that we have, and that still in our everyday lives. There's a real push at the moment for let's get everyone back in the office. A lot of white middle class businessmen are saying there's nothing wrong. We did it before. Yeah, because it didn't affect you, because you weren't doing the school run and the big shop and the laundry and trying to juggle work and home at the same time. So no, it doesn't affect you. So I think it's really interesting those points that you're raising, and I know that we've got a long way to go here in the UK when it comes to diversity, and we saw that last year, didn't we? When we saw those race riots and we saw a lot of kind of racist rhetoric going on. Are you worried that we're going to see more racism as a result of what's going on in the US?

MO KANJILAL:

Yeah, that's a real concern and something that's being talked about a lot, and you know, the thing with that is, I think what the race riots showed last summer as well is that those things are there. So when people say there's no work to do, well, there is because those people that think those things and say those things are there. It's only when they feel emboldened and that they can say these things out loud that you then start to see it very visibly. So I think that that will happen. There will be people that think this is great and that they can say all of those things. But in a way, again, it just shows us how much work there is to do. It just shows us where our society actually is, in that people say that they might not say those things out loud, but they think those things, and there's this kind of polite face of racism where things might be said sort of very politely, in middle class, clipped tones or, you know, comments might be made that actually, under the surface, this is what people think and that's why there is so much work to do and we have to look at how these things are reported as well. We have to look at all of these things.

MO KANJILAL:

So you know your, your podcast intro talks about finding stories that are not always reported to the news, and that's because who controls our news agendas, you know who actually runs these companies producing the news, and actually we want to see different stories coming out because we don't see everything. And there's a lot of talk about the rise of citizen journalism, so people recording the news on their literally on their phones that debunks a story that's put out by a traditional media organization, or people just writing their own news, putting out their own content, which has two sides to it as well, because there's obviously it's not just inherently going to be absolutely correct that one citizen thinks this because another citizen thinks that, because that's how our society is. But but it's just interesting to see how these things are shifting and changing.

ANGELA WALKER:

Yeah, and that's a really good point you made about who controls our news, because I wrote an article last year about from the point of view of some people Jewish people I know in London who were feeling scared and that article. When I put that on Twitter, my Twitter account was shut down. I was being silenced for showing that side of the argument and I couldn't believe it and it's never got back to the place it was. I mean, I've abandoned Twitter now anyway, but at that time that was a platform where I had a lot of interaction and that really showed me they're trying to shut me up and that makes it even more important for us to do stuff like this podcast, because people will listen to this. I'm an independent journalist. No one is controlling me, and that's why I like to give a voice to people like you, mo, because it is so important.

ANGELA WALKER:

And we saw Elon Musk on stage at the inauguration and he gave what looked like a Nazi salute and there have been people defending it, saying it was misinterpreted. He was throwing his heart to the crowd. He's got autism, asperger's. It was a misinterpreted. What did you think when you saw that? I know what I thought.

MO KANJILAL:

What did you think, when you saw that, I think he knew what he was doing and I think these excuses that you're seeing would they be saying that if someone else had done that salute, would the same things be being said. So he's being excused, that kind of behaviour is being excused, and I think that's what has to be challenged by people and it is being challenged by people. But I've been surprised at how many people I've seen who have defended him. That has really surprised me.

ANGELA WALKER:

I think the silence from some quarters has been deafening. Actually, if I, on the public arena, did something that some people thought was a Nazi salute, I'd be mortified and I'd be out there giving a public statement saying I'm so sorry if that's what it looked like. I absolutely did not mean to do that and I think the fact that we've not heard any kind of apology or any kind of recognition that it was open to interpretation. Someone used the phrase plausible deniability and I think that's really good. It's almost like can I get away with it? And I don't know. Do you think some people just don't want to believe it and they're just turning a blind eye? It's been fascinating.

MO KANJILAL:

So can you imagine if one of us did that, if I was going to give a talk and I turned up and I did that, what would happen? So the people that are not saying anything or trying to defend him, I think just need to really think about what they're excusing, in a way. There has been some shocking comments and content on this, so I'd love to come back a bit more to social media platforms, but the one that's really surprised me is linked in, which is the professional platform there has been. There was a post that went viral of a woman who basically did the same salute and said you know, I'm just doing this hand on heart, like it doesn't mean what you think it does, and you think, wow, that's quite a big statement to be making, that you're. You're defending him that publicly. That that's what you're going to do. But just going back to social media platforms, like you, I used to love Twitter.

MO KANJILAL:

It used to be the place where I got news. I connected with journalists. You know, loads of opportunities came from it. I've now I've just left my account dormant for now, but when you look at it I mean I haven't looked at it for quite a long time now, but it's just become this place where, well, basically all of Elon Musk's tweets like they're not called tweets anymore, but you know all of his content is promoted and it's it's what led to a lot of people supporting Donald Trump in the election and you know the race riots as well. That was actually the point at which I said that's it, I'm out was last summer when that was happening, because I was like, you know, I can't be on a platform where he's inciting that kind of you know violence on in another country.

ANGELA WALKER:

But you know, it's really an echo chamber for the people that are on it. So people that are on Twitter, who are following certain accounts, are being bombarded with these messages and I think in a way it normalizes it because they feel like, well, that's the news, that's what's out there, and I feel like that a lot about social media. I mean, I come from a TV news background where a bulletin is curated by a group of news editors who are across the world news and they're giving you the top stories from around the world. And that's been done in a considered way. They're not just bombarding you with the same stories again and again, which is really like a form of indoctrination.

ANGELA WALKER:

And I kind of look back to like the 1930s and I think it was really the creep of Nazism. It didn't just happen overnight, it was really insidious and a lot of people at the time just turn a blind eye. It didn't affect them, you know. And then and then we look back and go how did that happen? And I have a fear in me like that we're in the middle of something really historic and it doesn't feel great, mo, you know yeah.

MO KANJILAL:

And then there's lots of people that have said, actually we should all stay on Twitter for that reason that otherwise it would just turn in even more into an echo chamber if we're not all participating and like contradicting and say showing people different, you know what the truth is and things that we believe, but there comes. For me, anyway, there came a point where I was like I just can't be there anymore. But I do see the argument from people that say, actually you have to stay in these places and continue to have these conversations because otherwise what's going to happen?

MO KANJILAL:

we're just going to have everybody in their own echo chamber and and you know I'm as guilty of that as anybody else only following people I like, unfollowing people I don't like on whatever platform I'm on. So we do need to think about the impacts of that. What I find fascinating is how we find out information now and the news, because it isn't all just people reading newspapers. There's different online news sites, but they're controlled by different agendas, and then you've got all these different social media platforms. It's really fragmenting where people are getting their information well, I teach at oxford brooks university.

ANGELA WALKER:

I teach journalism there and I did a show of hands quite recently. Oh, who's watched a news bulletin? In the last week, out of about 60 students, none of them had watched a tv news bulletin and they're journalism students and that's not criticism, it's an observation of how things have changed and their go-to platform for most of them for news was TikTok, which was just so fascinating to me. I actually put my clips out from these podcasts on TikTok and they get really good views and interactions and so, yeah, the way that we consume our news has changed.

ANGELA WALKER:

But coming back to you know, the whole Trump scenario and talking about holding people to account, I mean we saw the Bishop of Washington, marianne Edgar Budde, urging Donald Trump to have mercy on the people in our country who are scared, and she listed groups of people. She said the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospital, and that was a woman in a position of authority using her platform to really hold him and his policies to account. And what a brave woman. I really want to see how stuff pans out for her, you know, in the coming months, and we saw the backlash from him Almost immediately. There was a statement saying that her speech was like nasty and inappropriate, and I know you watched that as well, mo. When you saw her from literally from the pulpit saying that to the President of the United States, what did you think?

MO KANJILAL:

I think like you, I felt really emotional. I was like this is somebody who's just thought I'm going to do this. Very brave to do that and, I think, just an example to so many people of the fact that you know, if you, if you have the opportunity, you've got to say these things. If you're, you know, if you're she was in front of those very people. What an opportunity to actually say those things out loud to those people and, yes, they immediately, you know, denounce it, but it's out there, it's there and I, you and I'm sure there's been clips of that what she said, shared across all social media platforms because it really was impactful. One of the most impactful things from all of the coverage, really, of the US election was her. For me, I thought, you know, that's going to infuriate them, because it wasn't Donald Trump's speech that actually has made such a big impact, but that, you know, just showed me that you know, we have to keep saying these things. Everybody that gets the opportunity should do that.

ANGELA WALKER:

Some people are saying that it was inappropriate because we shouldn't be mixing religion with politics, and that she abused her position, which was, you know, supposed to be a prayer service. What do you think about that, uh?

MO KANJILAL:

yeah, that's another fascinating thing, because are these things really that separate? What was she? What she actually said was, as you said, you know, we need to think about the people that pick crops, that do this kind of work. That is what religion is about, isn't it? Isn't it thinking about people? So I think it's just people that didn't like what she said saying that, had they liked what she said, we wouldn't be getting all these comments.

ANGELA WALKER:

I know that we need a bit more balance in our you know, british government, but I feel like we're getting there. We've got more of a mix of people from different backgrounds working class, middle class, upper class, some women in there, people of different religions um, there is a way to go, but I feel like there's more representation than there was like 50 years ago. And in the us now we've seen a clique of like white male billionaires. I know there's a woman in there somewhere, but she's also a billionaire. It's the wealthiest presidential administration in modern history. There's 13 billionaires. I mean how they're making policies which affect millions of everyday people? Do you think they can do that in a fair way when they're so far removed from the lives of everyday people?

MO KANJILAL:

That's the thing that makes me again very sad because people have voted for them thinking they're going to change my life, they're going to make my life amazing, but they don't understand people's lives. They've got no concept of what it's like to struggle to pay your bills every month, and that was what I was encouraged by seeing more representation in our government. You've got people that grew up in social housing and you understand those things. Because if you don't have any concept of that, understanding of that, how can you make policies about it? And you know somebody works in business. I often say that about the politicians that are making decisions about businesses. How many of them have actually worked in business, have actually started their own businesses, actually understand it?

MO KANJILAL:

So I think that with the US, those billionaires are going to make decisions that are going to impact people's lives, so it won't impact them and they don't have any understanding of what everyday people's lives are like. And they don't have any understanding of what everyday people's lives are like. And with a country like the USA it's such a huge country with such different lives across different sectors of that society that it really worries me. I have a view on billionaires Do you really need, does anyone need, to be a billionaire, and if you are and you're not using any of your wealth to do good, then surely that's something we need to rebalance in some way in society. We don't have an answer for that, of course, because it's the same.

MO KANJILAL:

In this country, we have extreme wealth as well. We have all the extremes, don't we? Extreme wealth, extreme poverty, and I think if you're not in politics to try and resolve and work on some of those things, then why are you in politics? Is it just about power? And that's what I see when I see those US billionaires. I think that's about power.

ANGELA WALKER:

Yeah, and I think the poverty gap in the UK seems to be worsening. The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer. Do you think enough people in British politics have come out and spoken about the new US president's policies?

MO KANJILAL:

No, I don't. I think there's been a lot of silence and then there's been some strange comments made by some politicians as well, sort of congratulating him. I don't think it's been over so many comments that have congratulated him. I think there's been a level and I understand that they have to do that because the USA is an important player in the world. So I understand that that you know, as a politician, there has to be some messaging that goes on, but I suppose it's the silence that speaks the most yeah, that's what.

ANGELA WALKER:

That's what I feel like, but I did see a message from the Mayor of London which was quite touching and it said London is for everyone. Everyone's welcome here, and I thought that was a really positive message actually, because I guess there were a lot of immigrants in London and I wonder how they're feeling right now. What do you think?

MO KANJILAL:

Yeah, I saw that message too, and that was another thing that made me feel emotional actually to see that message, because you know, think how people must be feeling. You know it must be so tough. I have seen some great messages. I saw another one from Caroline Lucas, who was my MP. She's sit down, obviously she's not an MP now, so can be more open. She's made an MP now, so can be more open. She's made some great comments where she's really condemned what's been going on and has said particularly around the climate as well, like some of the decisions that have been made, so I've seen some great comments from her. There have been people that have spoken out, but I think it's difficult. I think it's MPs that have perhaps already lost the whip for whatever party they're in, or feel like they could speak out more.

ANGELA WALKER:

Those are the ones that you're seeing speaking out, and traditionally we've always had, you know, this special relationship with the us. Um, apparently, and I and I mean, yeah, it's tricky because they're our neighbors in a way and we need to keep on certain terms with them. And where is the line where you can turn around to your friend and say, actually, what you're doing isn't right and still maintain contact with them without them kind of cutting you off and being like, well, it's none of your business? So you know, um, yeah, it's really really tricky. Um, is it a?

MO KANJILAL:

special relationship. Is it really? That's what I always think when I hear that phrase. Is it really, um, is it more important to us in this country than it is the usa? Do they really care? Um, you know, I've questioned whether it's a special relationship and, like you say, if it is, shouldn't we be able to say you know why are you withdrawing from the world health organization? Like questions?

ANGELA WALKER:

yeah, yeah, if you're good friends with someone, you should be able to challenge them when you think they're wrong. And I think on a personal level, I always try and put my hand up and speak out if I see wrongdoing in the workplace, you know, in life, and I want to be able to look back and say, yeah, I did speak up. And I think people that speak out they'll look back and be able to feel in their conscience whether they did the right thing. Um, tell me about your book, the inclusion journey it's on over your shoulder there. Tell, yeah, how did it get started? What's it about?

MO KANJILAL:

yeah, lots of lots of copies behind me. So the inclusion journey was published last year in in august. It's available worldwide. It is available in the usa too. Um, it has world examples in it as well. So it the book, sets out the context about why inclusion is important and looks at examples and data. It's very data driven, so those people that debunk this kind of work need to look at all the facts that are in are in the book, and then it shows you how you could take an organization through an inclusion journey, what are the things you need to do, and we've also got lots of case studies in there. So stories about what organisations have done, some great stories, some sort of big companies, big global companies, but also just lots of smaller organisations too. So there's a great example of Lewis Football Club, who are a really tiny football club in Sussex, who were the first football club in the world to play pay the men and women's team equally amazing.

MO KANJILAL:

Yeah, it's groundbreaking that a tiny football club decided to do that, um. So it's, yeah, it takes you through a lot of those kinds of examples and shows what you can do. You don't have to have big budgets to do everything, they just did it, um, and just shows you, like, all the data. So there's a, there's a bit I remember researching and writing that's near the beginning, that says why is it that world leaders have usually been men from wealthy backgrounds? Is it that they are actually the best people to lead all of these countries, or is there something else going on there that means those are the leaders we get, when actually there could be so many other people that could lead countries?

ANGELA WALKER:

yeah, of course. Well, is it anything to do with the millions and millions of pounds that they spend on on their campaigns? You know, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that you mentioned the football, because david beckham came out yesterday and said he wanted his daughter to have the same opportunities as her male counterparts. And then I thought, but what? About football. You know what about football?

MO KANJILAL:

start with football also. He um went to, he supported the Qatar um world cup, which you know is a country with lots of things to address. There, like I, yeah, and I thought it's that thing isn't there where a lot of men will only speak out on these things when they have a daughter, it's like so before that you didn't care.

ANGELA WALKER:

Yeah, it's only when it affects them people speaking out when it affects them. It's been so good talking to you, mo. Thank you so much for coming on and talking about the issue of diversity and trump and and how what goes on in the us might affect us here. It's been really good to have you on the show, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's been great to chat to you. Brilliant, thank you. You've been listening to Angela Walker in conversation. You can find more information on my website, angelawalkerreportscom. Until next time, take care. Goodbye.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Angela Walker

Host

Podcasts we love

Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.