Vessi Kapoulian

There's been a lot happening in our industry. It's no secret that we're going through our winter season right now. And naturally, when you go through this type of the this phase of the cycle there's also a lot of fraud, a lot of scams that emerge.

Ed Mathews

If you're within three feet of me, we're probably talking about real estate, much to my family's chagrin. But here's the thing, most people see 7% rates and freeze. I see opportunity. They're waiting for the perfect deal, and well, I've analyzed thousands of them, and perfect just doesn't exist. So I talk to operators across every asset class, flippers, multifamily syndicators, note investors, and whatever else is working. No sales pitches allowed, just real lessons from people actually doing it. I'm Ed Mathews, and this is Real Estate Underground. Greetings and salutations, Real Estate Undergrounders. It is Ed Mathews with The Real Estate Underground. Thank you so much for making us a part of your day. I'm very excited, 'cause this is a returning guest, someone I'm quite fond of. And she is an author. She is a real estate investor. She is an advisor to some really important operations, family offices within our business. And I'm a... It's an honor to have her back. Vessi Kapulian, thank you so much for joining us. It's really good to see you, my friend.

Vessi Kapoulian

Thank you so much, Ed. It's a pleasure to be back, and I'm honored to be invited back, so thank you.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. It's good, and when I saw that you had come out with a new book, I was like, "Ooh, what a great opportunity to bring her back." 'Cause, I have a lot of respect for you. I follow you on LinkedIn and, you know- Thank you obviously we've had you on the show before and I think every time we interact I learn something. I expect that of you today as well. Now, n- there's your ch- there's your challenge for the show.

Vessi Kapoulian

Yes. I look forward to having an insightful conversation and- Absolutely adding value to the audience,

Ed Mathews

absolutely. For those of you folks, or for the folks out there who haven't discovered you either on, on social media or discovered your books why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yes. I'm originally from Bulgaria, grew up behind the Iron Curtain, and that experience shaped very much how I think and who I am today. Came to the US, it was my dream and I made that dream real. Professionally, I spent the majority of my career in risk management and underwriting, working with founder-led enterprises at the middle market level in a number of credit structures and facilities, including cross-border deals, structured trade, working capital facilities. And what that really taught me is how to think about and evaluate downside risk and think about capital allocation from a lender's perspective. Yeah. As you mentioned, I am a real estate investor, have been investing for a number of years at this point. And what that taught me is the investor lens when allocating capital, and also figuring out what the upside is, what the opportunity is, and how you appropriately get compensated for taking on that risk. Where I spend the majority of my time today is working with founder-led enterprises and family offices at the board level, advising on risk management, strategic investments, as well as governance, which has taught me how to think about protecting the capital that's invested and how to make it last through generations. Different experiences through, through my career, all sitting at the capital- allocation table, if you will, but having different angles around downside risk, opport- evaluating the opportunity, and then the governance angle in terms of how to protect it.

Ed Mathews

Wonderful. And, it's interesting we're in parallel our lives, our professional lives are in parallel because, we've kinda moved our business, Clark Street, from acquiring multifamily properties to moving- to the lending side. And- and y- our focus is on just that, right? Running what we have very well and slowly but surely allowing those mortgages to get paid down, so that my kids get it. But but also from the, from the debt side using it as a tool to preserve capital and, you know- being first in line, being that first position- in a lot of the deals that we're doing these days. Yeah, it's interesting how our lives have kinda paralleled over the last, four or five years. You wrote a book, and actually, you've written two. I read your first one. Mastering Multifamily Underwriting, you're too humble to say it, so I'll say it. It was an Amazon bestseller. Oh, thank you so congratulations for that.

Vessi Kapoulian

Thank you.

Ed Mathews

So why don't you tell us a little bit about the premise of the first book and why you wrote it?

Vessi Kapoulian

Absolutely. The first book that came out is Mastering Multifamily Underwriting, and w- what prompted it I don't want to start with negativity, but it was pain, right? I spoke with a lot of investors, or have spoken with and continue to speak with a lot of investors over the past few years and often they would reach out with questions, "Hey, I got a capital call," or, "Is my deal safe?" "Distribution paused, what does that mean?" And usually they... I would have prefer that they engage me before deploying the capital so we can pick apart the deal and determine is it a risk that they're willing to take based on their own risk tolerance. But I have advised a number of investors over the years, and what I realized throughout this experience are these are very smart, accomplished individuals, but they're not necessarily Wall Street analysts, right? Or commercial lenders knowing how to deeply evaluate deals. And I figured I cannot clone myself, or at least at the time you couldn't. I think now with AI, I suppose you could do that. But at the time, I figured I cannot clone myself, and how do I become part of the solution? And it's through education, and that's what really inspired me to write that book, and break apart or break down the deal analysis process. And I focused on multifamily, although really the teachings from that book can be applied to many other real estate asset classes. Yep. So how do I break it down in plain English that's not intimidating to the average reader so they can really use it as a tool on how to evaluate deals so they can protect their capital?

Ed Mathews

And when you're looking at when you're looking at deals what are some of the key areas that you're focused on so that, y- you can take a deep breath and know that this deal is something that is going to play out as expected or at least nearly- as expected?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, so I like to focus on four areas, starting with really the operator, then the market, then the numbers, and lastly the structure of the deal. So the deal is actually the last thing I look at because it's, I used to say as a lender, people pay back loans, not properties. And yes, of course, you take the property as a collateral and your secondary source of repayment, but it ultimately starts with the operator. And I can walk through some of the vetting points that I go through, and I share those also in my latest book. But then the second one is the market, right? And then the, the last piece is the deal. And not only the s- the numbers of the deal, right? What are the assumptions that they're making? Are they in line with the local market conditions? Because real estate is hyper local, right? What happens if the business plan doesn't materialize? Do I lose money or how much do I lose or not at all? And are these assumptions realistic, or do they just make the deal look pretty on paper? And I can- Yeah speak to what some of these assumptions are. And the last piece is the deal structure, and that's poring over the documents of the deal the private placement memorandum and really digging into key areas which I can also touch upon to really understand, does this align with my risk tolerance when it comes to, for example, fees, right? Is there alignment of incentives between the passive investor and the lead sponsor? Yeah. Capital call conditions, distribution timing and waterfall structures and all of that because I've had situations where the sponsor and market checked out numbers maybe checked out, but the structure didn't align. So I've walked away in those cases. So just that's more high level, but we can definitely do a deeper dive into each of these.

Ed Mathews

Yep. We're gonna, but the next thing I wanna talk about is your latest book. The The Busy Professional's Guide to Passive Apartment Investing. And, What I understand is that, it... And a lot of the investors that I come in contact with they, they want exposure to real estate, but they are- a business owner. They are a professional. A doctor, lawyer, accountant. They're a, a technology or a, a high-level C-level executive, and they have 80-hour a week jobs. They have no time to be an investor. And they rely on guidance from, folks like you to to be able to determine, what are the, the right deals. So why don't you tell us about that book and then, you know- Yeah we can get into the, the weeds a little bit.

Vessi Kapoulian

Absolutely. So what prompted that book was, again, Ma- Mastering Multifamily-

Ed Mathews

Also an Amazon bestseller- Oh by the way. I just wanted to make that-

Vessi Kapoulian

Oh. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. I'm very blessed and honored, yes, that it's reaching and continuing to reach many readers and thus positively impact investors. But yes, what inspired that book is with Mastering Multifamily Underwriting I did a deeper dive into the deal analysis process, the underwriting aspect of it. But as I mentioned a moment ago, when evaluating a deal, it's not only the numbers, it's not only the deal structure, it's the sponsor, the market, how you get liquidity to invest into deals. There are different sources that you can tap into. And w- what I wanted to present is a broader angle of what passive investing is and why it may or may not make sense for you. And with each topic, I... my goal was to really share a more balanced approach, right? I know you and I love real estate, you and I love syndications, but they're not for everyone. And so it's important for investors to consider not only the pros, but some of the cons as well. There's been a lot happening in our industry. It's no secret that we're going through our winter season right now. And naturally, when you go through this type of the this phase of the cycle there's also a lot of fraud, a lot of scams that emerge. So I, I talk about that in the book as well. You cannot, of course, eliminate the risk of fraud, but I speak about including some of my own experiences either catching fraud on, when I was a lender or being a victim of fraud when I was on the passive investing side. And so really sharing some of those experiences in the broader passive investing angle and as well as all the work that goes into it, right? It's not fully passive. I'm hoping that this will serve as a resource for investors. And you mentioned time constraints each chapter is really written to stand on its own, so investors can use it literally as a reference guide. They can skip forward, go backward, and really use it as a tool when they evaluate their next investment opportunity.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. I know you've writ- you've underwritten, gosh, it's gotta be thousands of deals at this point. And, you ran a, a significant credit book a billion plus, if I'm not mistaken. So if... before you bought your f- your own building. And what does a lender see in a multifamily deal that a syndicator pitching to a limited partner, usually doesn't?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, so the lender's first first question, actually one of my favorite questions to this day to ask when I evaluate opportunities, how do I lose money on this deal, right? And what they're really trying to evaluate is the downside risk. Because especially as a lender if you think about the capital stack, yes, they have the highest seniority in terms of rights but also the lowest potential return, right? You charge a loan and a spread and no no matter how many great deals you do as a lender, they will not be enough to really make up for the loss from one bad deal or one bad choice that you make. And so from a lender's angle, again, it definitely starts with the people first. I... W- with the people first and then diving into the numbers and the strength of the collateral. And they're really looking at not only for s- not only the deal as it is today but they're also stress testing the assumptions to figure out, okay, if this business plan doesn't work as e- as expected, what does the downside scenario look like? And then based on that, they either move forward with a deal or maybe they structure it in a way that, that protects the downside and also also the investor. And again I speak from a more traditional lender angle, right? I work for one of the largest banks. There are different types of lenders out there, and so how they evaluate risk, how they approach risk, how they structure deals is also slightly different. So who you work with also matters. Yeah. So from my perspective, I'm taking, I'm speaking to more of the I guess traditional lending approach, but that's not the only lending approach out there.

Ed Mathews

Sure. Of course. Of course. One of the things that... and I've seen you online talking about this. You- you separate the diligence that follows from the deck and from, from... You separate it from the documents themselves. And- it's an important distinction that I think most people miss. And for a passive investor evaluating, say an apartment building deal, you know- what are the two or three things that that you need to pay attention to in the offering documents that, aren't necessarily that they, that they, the passive investor isn't necessarily paying close attention to but should be, right? What are those things that, that kind of cause red flags for you?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, so fir- first is really understand the waterfalls and there are two types of waterfalls, right? One is the capital event waterfall, what happens when a deal is refinanced or sold when there is a capital event. And then the other one is the, the cashflow waterfall or the distributions. And what I really want to see there is the priority and how either the capital or the cashflow would be distributed. So in a typical deal you have 70/30 splits, 8% preferred return which is not guaranteed. I find that a lot of investors think, yeah that's happening- It's guaranteed. Boy not unless the deal performs as expected, right? And so in, in that case, you really want to see a scenario where that preferred return is paid first before the s- profit splits kick in. Again, not all deals have it, but if they do, you wanna make sure that happens. With the capital event of course, after the lender is paid back, at which they take priority then I... what I really want to see is the return of capital and make sure that's there. Then the nice-to-haves would be catch up to the preferred return, and then lastly, the profit splits. If there are any other participants in the capital stack, like preferred equity or perhaps maybe what the sponsor has lent their own capital to temporarily bridge any liquidity needs, it's important to understand where these come as well. Typically, again, they would be ahead of the common equity or the LP shareholder. So that's usually that's one of the areas. The second one is the capital call structures is one I like to look at. Don't assume that they're all optional. And sometimes the non-participation comes with severe penalties, so you want to understand, to the extent those exist, what they are and then decide if you're comfortable with it. When it comes to... And I forgot to mention one thing for the Cash flow, waterfall and distributions, you really want to understand how they're structured. A lot of times people assume that they're cumulative, and that's not necessarily the case. There are structures where if y- if it's not paid out, it's lost, right? They're non-cumulative, non- non-compounding. The most typical structure is cumulative, and if for a really LP-friendly deal, they're cumulative and compounding. But that, though, that's that's probably an outlier. So those are a, a couple of the areas that I look for, and I definitely did a deeper dive in- into my latest book on what some of these key sections are that investors should look for and determine if this deal aligns with their comfort level.

Ed Mathews

Okay. And so let's apply this to your business, right? I know that you invest predominantly in the Southeast, right? Florida, Georgia, Tennessee- if I'm not mistaken. But you run it from LA, which, mind-boggling to me. I don't know you must not require sleep. Or you have very good property management and asset management on the ground. But, in this rate environment, in this insurance environment, how has your underwriting changed on what you'll even look at, now- here in 2026? It's, as of the recording of this episode, we're in July of 2026.

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah. Yeah, Florida and Tennessee is my single family portfolio, and then Georgia is my multi-family portfolio, at least where it is today. How do I do this out of state? It's, I... It's the team. You nailed on it. And that's why I first start with the operator and the people, and I want to see that they're based locally, right? So I have that local boots on the ground and, and/or that they have the local infrastructure the... of people and processes pretty well developed- Yeah within that particular market. So that's how I've been able to in-invest or get comfortable with investing out of state. As far as the assumptions and how they have evolved, there are a couple of things that have changed quite a bit, right? One is, one is rent growth, and a lot of times models and financial updates and financial templates come with the standard 3% rent growth 2% economic vacancy for maybe delinquencies and concessions and maybe 2 to 3% for a loss to lease loss. And that, that has evolved, right? Rent growth in some markets has turned negative. Even when I get a deal and I hear the term, "Oh, 3% conservative rent growth," it's not conservative, right? There was a situation where someone had brought a deal to me, and they were forecasting 0% in year one and then starting to grow at 3% thereafter. And again, on the surface, this seems very conservative, but when I peeled the curtain on that particular market that they were in rent growth has actually been trending negative 3% with material concessions. So even that wasn't- corresponding to the reality of the market. And I start with the rent, right? Because if you get that wrong, not only your baseline is wrong, but also- Everything's wrong the future growth rate of which your compound is wrong. And so then it's very hard to catch up with that. Y- you mentioned insurance and taxes. These are key components I look at, but overall we have we've gone through a massive burst of liquidity post-COVID, which created a pretty significant inflation. And yes, it's ta- tapered down from the 9 to 10% levels, but we're now in the 3% range. And for components like insurance, yes prices have come down in certain markets, but they've come down from the peak, not from where they used to be. So even for certain line items like in- insurance I go, I like to see that the operator has factored in growth beyond just the standard 3%. Because again, that's the reality. I see it in the deals that I'm in today. And due to a lot of geopolitical and other events i- immigration policies, social spending and whatnot, that's definitely impacting cost of labor, cost of materials, availability of certain programs, tenant-friendly programs. Factoring all of that into the underwrite, and then stress testing the assumptions. What happens if this doesn't go right? There is a lot of talk lately about the low-income tax housing credit, LIHTC programs, and people are jumping into them. And ideally, I'd like to see that it's an operator who's done it numerous times, but my first question is what happens if you don't get that tax credit within the first six months as you're projecting? Does the deal still work, or what if regulations change and you don't get it at all? So it's important to factor the local market dynamics, but also the global macro picture when you are evaluating the numbers.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. As you've moved from operator to now advising family offices and passive investors what it... and I know, you've, y- in your travels, you've talked about deals that haven't worked out, where you've lost money. Which I find refreshing because most of the investors I talk to has ne- have never lost money ever until you do, right? And I'm one of them. I've certainly lost- Yes my fair share of deals that have gone sideways, but, you figure it out and you figure it out. What did you learn from those experiences, and also from watching LPs lose money, and how has that changed the way that you look at protecting capital today?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah I love this question, and it really is going beyond the surface and beyond the, the social media and marketing Right messages which are out there- It's the best there is and yes, and I feel again, especially for busy professionals they... and today a lot of times people connect through social media, understand that's how the world works today. So it's important to be out there because conversely, if I look up an operator and I cannot find anything about them online, that's also a red flag Right for me. But I would I've learned to, to go beyond the surface, and oftentimes you hear, y- they say what you want to hear, but not necessarily what you need to hear. And so not being afraid to walk away from a deal and say no. We went through a period where LPs were literally lining up in line and couldn't get into deals, and that created the FOMO, fear of missing out, experience. But I can guarantee you that you would regret a lot more not getting into a great deal than getting into the wrong one. So one is definitely going beyond the, the surface and the marketing glamour asking the hard questions. And the s- strong operators would actually welcome that, right? Because they want sophisticated investors. They want investors who really understand the deal or are willing to understand the deal and deal structure and the risk that comes with it. How they respond to the questions is also important or if they respond, right? I've had cases where I got ghosted, so that was a response in and of itself, right? And so not being afraid to say no. And then at the end of the day, let's just say you've gone through the, the diligence, you figure out what really the baseline of a deal looks like relative to the marketing deck- Yeah is making a decision, is this the most efficient use of my capital, right? So a lot of the deals I look at today, they come with maybe 16, 17 IRR, which is not terrible in the current market. Frankly, any- anything 14 to 16 is I think, a very reasonable expectation. Sure. But when I pick apart the deal and create that more of a baseline scenario with some of the assumptions that we talked about earlier in our conversation, it comes down to more like a 9 to 10% IRR deal. And then as an allocator of capital, I have to ask, is this the most efficient use of my money, right? Am I better off keeping it in a more liquid investment, or am I comfortable tying it up for five to seven years in, in a deal that carries a higher illiquid deal that carries a h- a higher risk premium and illiquidity premium? So these are some of the questions to ask, and sometimes the answer is no, right? Maybe th- maybe you're comfortable with the baseline you created, you're comfortable with the market, you're comfortable with the operator but based on the return profile it's not adequate to compensate you for the deal risk, illiquidity risk that you are taking on.

Ed Mathews

Right on. Yeah, there was a, a, a industry famous person Brandon Turner, who had a... when you look at the deal from... And I o- I'm an outsider looking in he lost, it was a $15 million hit, and two things happened that I really admired actually. One was that he, f- first and foremost, he was very transparent. And this is exactly what happened. They got the capital stack, there was a problem with the capital stack. They discovered it, well into the process. I'm not gonna get... I'm not an expert on the deal, so I'm not gonna get into the bits and bytes of it, but- the, that they recognized it and did everything they could to save it. But the other part was total transparency, right? He was... no one found out about this from someone else. It was him on Twitter walking step by step, "Here's exactly what happened. Here's what we did. Here's what we're gonna do." And, for me- As a limited partner I admire that. And it's interesting. I have a friend of mine who's in the venture capital world, and he's always told me for years and years... So he's a Silicon Valley guy, right? And he is, he's always said to me, "I, I, I won't invest in a business with a founder who hasn't..." what he calls cycled, right? And what cycled means was I started a business, it crashed into a brick wall. They were, h- how they handled that is very important, right? And then they got back up, dusted themselves off, and went right back into the business, right? And those are things that, that I look for, as a limited partner, I look for in sponsors. Because, when I have a sponsor who's pitching me a project, unless they're brand spanking new and they look me in the eye and say, "I've never lost money from an investor," I'm like, "In this climate? Yeah. Highly unlikely, my friend. And it tends to be a short conversation, right? But- Yeah.

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, I was going to say, it's, yeah, how... Losses are inevitable. They come with- investing, right? As investors, we get paid- Yes to take risk, and that inherently comes with the probability of loss. And I think almost everyone has gone through at least one capital call, at least one pause distribution. Maybe not foreclosure, but at least one bad experience. And so what I look for in these situations is not so much, "Aha you had a failure." Ah, "so I got you now." You're not

Ed Mathews

perfect.

Vessi Kapoulian

That's... Exactly. That's not what I look for. For me, it's actually more important to understand what did they learn from that experience, right? And how have they implemented that learning into their business today. That's really the conversation I want to have. Not so much have you failed, because we all have, whether that's in investing or other areas of- Sure our professional lives. It's mistakes is how we learn where we learn the most from.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. I agree, and that's actually a really good segue into our final five.

Vessi Kapoulian

Okay

Ed Mathews

I am curious. You've done very... Obviously you're a tremendously successful professional, both as an author and in your corporate life, and now in your investing life. And so congratulations, by the way, for building a tremendous set of businesses. And nevertheless, Monday morning, you got up, you bru- you washed your face, you brushed your teeth, and you went to work. You probably don't have to, right? I'm pretty sure the car payment's handled. I look at that as purpose, right? And- so I'm curious about your purpose. What gets you out of bed on Monday morning? What are you thinking about when you're looking at yourself in the mirror brushing your teeth?

Vessi Kapoulian

I love this question, Ed, because it really boils down to what is our why. And as long as you have a, a, a powerful why you keep going in those difficult moments which inevitably come or it pushes you further in the great moments that you're experiencing. And for me, it's creating positive impact, and I view that as part of my legacy. That's also what really inspired the books. I may not be here a few years from now or years from now, but the books- Oh, don't say that will, the books will live on. Decades

Ed Mathews

from now.

Vessi Kapoulian

Let's say decades. Oh, decades from now, but the... my point is the books will live on. My word will live on and hopefully continuously continue to positively impact people. And it's I apply the same principles in what I do every day, whether it's with the families I work with creating the governance frameworks that they can build on for future generations, or when they're in- making investment decisions, acquiring companies, right? It's creating the discipline, asking the questions and through, through that they learn through the process. So next time around, again, whether I'm here or not, they've learned from that experience. I've created something positive and positive impact. So lasting positive impact is, I would... if I would summarize it in three words, is really what drives me.

Ed Mathews

Right on. So I'm also curious about, you are a mentor to investors and your clients and- but I'm also c- I'm very curious about the mentors you've had along the way. And so what's the best advice you've ever gotten, and who gave it to you?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, this reminds me, it was, it's going way back into my career, and I was asked to s- step up to a role and my response was, "No, I don't feel ready." And I'll never forget the words of my of that person who was going to be my boss. He said never turn down an opportunity and you'll get ready when it's presented to you." And I... It was really a great learning opportunity because f- from a couple of aspects, right? One is w- what probably drove my decision as I reflect on my response or what drove my response was fear, right? And but you don't grow if you become a victim of the fear, if you stay in your comfort zone. The second one is they probably saw something that I didn't see in myself, otherwise they wouldn't have asked me to step up and take that promotion. So trust the experience, trust the judgment, the guidance from those who were there ahead of you, right? And so that was a very may- maybe expensive lesson you can also say. But from that moment on, I've learned when these opportunities are presented to me, whether it's in my professional career being asked to step up and take on more responsibility, or even opportunities for me, whether that's investing, like investing out of state, right? That was extremely scary. Or buying the first property. It's what is driving that decision? Is it fear? And if the answer is yes, then the only way to overcome fear is through action, right? Take that... not, I'm not talking reckless action, but thoughtful, deliberate inspired- Managed

Ed Mathews

risk

Vessi Kapoulian

action, so that was, Yeah, that was definitely I... It's painful as I think about it, but it was a very valuable lesson that I learned.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. And so speaking of lessons, I, and I think you and I agree on this, that we learn w- far more from the mistakes and the bad decisions that we make than from our successes, right? Everybody was a genius in 2019. But the question I have is a decision... as you look back on your career, right? What's a decision that you look back on and think, "Oh, if I know what I know today, I would have made a very different decision"? And how did you handle that? How did you manage through it?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah. And I can speak on the investing side and as well as the career front. I think probably from the career aspect- Part of me regrets not starting the entrepreneur journey sooner, but I would say in taking on that calculated risk. But again, as I reflect to it and I reflect on it, I'm a, a person of faith, right? God's timing is always perfect. Maybe I would not have been ready, whether that's through the professional knowledge and experience or the capital base to take on that on my own. So when things happen, they happen I think at their right time. So I say I wish I had started sooner, but I don't know if I would have been ready. At least in my case. That's not necessarily for everyone. On the investing side and I talk about that in, in actually in both books is I share my own seminars and pay for ex- painful experiences, and that's one we touched upon earlier in our conversation, is going beyond the surface when evaluating a sponsor and a deal. It was a deal that I invested in. I passively I lost money on the deal. It still hurts as I talk about it. But I cannot take away the loss. I cannot take away what happened. What, the only thing I can take away from it are the lessons learned- and apply them into my journey, and I've shared some of these throughout the conversation today. It definitely hasn't been an up and up or perfect ride. But I like to label these as seminars, right? If you keep repeating it, then yeah, it becomes a mistake. But as long as you learn from it, that's that's probably the one benefit or blessing we, we get.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. And I've learned along the way myself, I like to think, include myself in this that leaders tend to be readers, right? And so I'm curious about the book that's on your nightstand or your smartphone. What authors are you paying attention to right now?

Vessi Kapoulian

Yeah, so the, the last f- couple of years has been mostly around governance and family office management and organization. And so I'll mention probably a couple of books. One is Kirby Rosplock's The Family Office Handbook. I view that as the Bible really of how family offices are structured and operate. And the one that I most recently finished would be Jolene Godfrey's Raising Financially Fit Kids, because that really speaks to how do you develop that next generation based on depending on which phase of life they're at, so you can institute that financial at least awareness and hopefully discipline earlier on in, in life to manage and protect the wealth of the family.

Ed Mathews

Yeah. Excellent. I'm gonna be adding those to my reading list as well. Last and certainly not least, how do you define success in your life?

Vessi Kapoulian

It's really living a life of significance, which for me is life of positive impact and contribution. And that's, that to me is success. And that can take a lot of different forms and shapes, and positive impact, of course is different for everyone. And... But that's how it would be defined for me.

Ed Mathews

Wonderful. All right, Vessi. When you're not talking about real estate or helping limited partners and family offices and others with their investments, what do you like to do for fun?

Vessi Kapoulian

I love to spend time with my family and my fur baby. I also love to run, and I definitely like to read. Running, reading, spending time with family and friends are my favorite activities.

Ed Mathews

Excellent. Excellent. And so if folks wanna learn more about you, your business, or get a hold of your books what's the best way to get in touch?

Vessi Kapoulian

Regarding the books, they're both available on Amazon in all four formats, so that's... They're very easy. Just look up my name and both should pop up. For those looking to deepen their governance, maybe improve on governance structure or perhaps looking at board advisory services, thevessik.com is my advisory site. For those looking to passively invest in apartments and going through the due diligence process on vetting deals and operators, dbacapitalgroup.com. And for those looking to do a deeper dive on, on underwriting, it's masteringmultifamilyunderwriting.com. I'm very, I'm almost daily on, on LinkedIn, so that's from a social media perspective, that's usually where I hang out.

Ed Mathews

Yeah, if you are in our space and on LinkedIn and you don't see Vessi in your feed, that's a you problem, not a her problem, because she's there every day at least in my feed. I get to see her smiling face and learn from her, and I'm grateful for that. I'm also grateful for the time you took out of your very busy day here on Friday to to have this chat. So Vessi, congratulations, and continued success, my friend, and good to see you.

Vessi Kapoulian

Thank you, Ed. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for having me again.