You Didn't Go Through All That Just to Be "Fine": Healing Betrayal | Dr. Debi Silber | Loud Whisper

"You didn't go through all that just to be fine."

That line lands harder the longer you sit with it, and it's the heart of this conversation.

This week Isabel talks with Dr. Debi Silber, a holistic psychologist who didn't just study betrayal, she lived it. First from her family, then from her husband. After the second one she got him out of the house, looked at both experiences, and realized the common thread besides her was that she never took her own needs seriously. So with four kids, six dogs, a business, and thirty years since she had last been in school, she enrolled in a PhD program to study betrayal at the highest level. Her research turned into three discoveries that changed how we understand it.

Here is the one that reframes everything: betrayal is not like other trauma. When you lose someone you love, people rally around you and you grieve. With betrayal, the person you trusted most becomes the person who hurt you, so you don't just lose them. You start questioning your own judgment, your sanity, and whether you can trust anyone ever again. And because the betrayer is so often loved by everyone else, you end up carrying it in silence.

Debi walks Isabel through her five stages of healing, and why almost everyone gets stuck in stage three. Stage three is where you can finally function again, so it feels like progress. But you're living behind walls, flat, numbing the day with food or work or wine, telling yourself you're fine. People stay there for ten, twenty, thirty years. She also explains something a lot of us have never heard: why traditional therapy, as well intentioned as it is, can quietly lock you into that stage instead of moving you out of it.

And Isabel brings in the thread she has been teaching for years. We are so quick to say this person or that person betrayed us, but the betrayal that keeps us smallest is often the one we commit against ourselves.

A few things they get into:


Why betrayal is its own kind of trauma, and why time alone never heals it
The symptom cluster now known as Post Betrayal Syndrome, and how it shows up in the body
The five stages of healing, and the one where almost everyone gets stuck
How therapy can accidentally keep you stuck instead of moving you forward
The woman in her eighties who healed a seventy year gut issue in two weeks
Self-betrayal, and why women do it more than anyone
The real cost of "easy now" and the payoff of "hard now"
Why a boundary is thirty seconds of discomfort for a lifetime of freedom


"The worst of it already happened. You owe it to yourself to see what the other side feels like."

Loud Whisper: Reignite Your Voice is a podcast for anyone who is tired of performing and ready to come home to themselves. Hosted by Isabel Draughon: coach, speaker, and author.

Connect with Dr. Debi Silber:
↳ The PBT Institute: https://thepbtinstitute.com
↳ Instagram: @debisilber
↳ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debisilber
↳ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/debisilber
↳ TikTok: @debisilber
↳ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InspireEmpowerTransform
↳ Her podcast, From Betrayal to Breakthrough: https://thepbtinstitute.com/podcast
↳ Her books: Trust Again, The Unshakable Woman, and From Hardened to Healed

Connect with Isabel Draughon:
↳ Website: https://www.isabeldraughon.com
↳ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/isabeldraughon/
↳ Loud Whisper IG: https://www.instagram.com/loudwhisper_reigniteyourvoice/
↳ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/Loud-Whisper-Reignite-Your-Voice-with-Isabel-Draughon-100049057790233/
↳ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/loud-whisper-reignite-your-voice-with-isabel-draughon/id1526408195

📅 Book a free 30-min discovery session: https://www.isabeldraughon.com/contact
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#LoudWhisper #ReigniteYourVoice #BetrayalRecovery #PostBetrayalSyndrome #Betrayal #Trust #SelfBetrayal #HealingJourney #Boundaries #EmotionalHealing #TraumaHealing #SelfWorth #WomensHealing #TrustYourself #InnerHealing #Wholeness #ComingHomeToYourself #Rebuild #Rebirth #NewEpisode

The Loud Whisper Podcast: The Healing Space is your health and wellness podcast  the place where you can pause, breathe, and heal. Here, we explore conversations that nourish the mind, body, and soul, guiding you back to balance, clarity, and truth.

✨ Stay connected with me, Isabel Draughon:
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 Instagram: @isabel_draughon

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Life is like you. Let's explore it together. I am what is already inside you.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Welcome to the Loud Whispery Nitro Voice Podcast. This is your healing space, and I am your host, Isabel Draun. Thank you so much for being here today. You could be anywhere else listening to any podcast, but you're here with us today. And I appreciate it. As I say about my guests, I feel like my guests are pretty special. And today I have a special woman with me. I have never physically met her. We met online, but just I felt a connection with her. And if I can be honest, I guess you know when you meet people and you feel like I can learn from this person? I don't know that yet, but that's how I feel about Debbie. So I'll tell you guys a little bit about Debbie. I'll give you her bio and then introduce her, and we're gonna jump right in. But as always, please subscribe, share. Remember, this is a space where we think about all humanity, what we're experiencing in life. So take the time to get whatever you can from what we're going to share today. I don't care how small it is, right? Utilize it, let it shift something within you. Because I don't know about Debbie, but one thing I know about me, 10 years ago, I was not the woman that's sitting here right now telling you about life and how things should be happening. So sometimes we all need permission, and I hope today we will give you the permission to want to start to becoming the best version of yourself. So I'm gonna jump right in and do Debbie's bio so you guys have an idea of the amazing human being that we have in front of us today. So her name is Debbie Silver. Did I pronounce that correctly? I always want to make sure I have people's name correctly. Okay, thank you. So that's Debbie Silver. She is the founder and CEO of the PBT, Host Betrayal Transformational Institute. And it's the world's leading organization that is dedicated to betrayal recovery. How powerful. She's a holistic psychologist that means health, mindset, and personal development expert. She has helped thousands of people heal from emotional, physical, and psychological impact of betrayal. She's an amazing best-selling author, speaker, and a researcher whose groundbreaking work has identified the five stages people go through from betrayal to breakthrough. Through her amazing work, she improves, she empowers individuals to rebuild trust, reclaim their help, and create lives that are stronger, wiser, and more aligned than before. Perfect guest for the loud whisper healing taste podcast. So thank you, Debbie. Thank you for joining us today and welcome. Thank you. Looking forward to our conversation. Yes, yes. I'm just gonna jump right into it. My first question for you you talk about uh betrayal, and this is what you do. So you didn't just study betrayal, you lived it. What was the moment, or maybe several moments? I know we always ask people what's the moment, but life is an accumulation of things. So, what I'll say is what made you realize, not the moment, just what made you realize what you went through had a name, a pattern, and a yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

So, you know, I had I had a really painful betrayal from my family, and then I thought I did everything I needed to do to heal from that, and then a few years later it happened again. This time it was my husband. So that was the deal breaker. Got him out of the house, looked at the two experiences, thinking what's similar here besides me. And I realized I never really took my own needs seriously. Boundaries were always getting crossed, and I'm one of those people that believes if nothing changes, nothing changes. Um I I had to heal, I had to move through this. And I used to go to, I would always go to books or courses or mentors to help me through something that I found challenging. And there wasn't, there wasn't anything. And this was so big that I decided to study it so big. So here it was four kids, six dogs, a a business, and I enrolled in a in a PhD program. I hadn't been in school in 30 years, and it was this PhD program. I wanted to study betrayal at the highest level. And I did. And as I was going through the program, I said, I have no idea how I'm gonna heal from this, but if I do, I'm taking everybody everyone with me. It was just a knowing. And then it was time to do a study. So I studied betrayal, and that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries, which changes everything we know about betrayal. So just went into the experience hoping to heal, walked out of it with a PhD discoveries, and helping thousands of people in the process.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Wow, I love it, love it. Are you able to share your groundbreaking discoveries?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, I'd love to. So the first one, you know, if you've been through other traumas, you know betrayal is a different experience. And when you think about it, like let's take death of a loved one, right? Uh, that was something I had been through. And I was like, I've been through disease. And I was like, it betrayal feels different, but I didn't want to assume it was the same for everyone in my study. So I asked them, if you've been through other traumas besides betrayal, you know, does it feel different for you unanimously? They said it's so different. And here are just a few reasons why. Think about it. When you lose someone you love, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the lost life will never be the same. But you don't go back and question that relationship. You don't question your ability to trust, you don't question your sanity. With betrayal, you do. You know, also with betrayal, what happens is there's like again, let's take someone you love. People rally, what do you need? How can I help? You know, when there's a loss. With betrayal, so often there's so much shame, embarrassment, humiliation. So the betrayed is struggling and suffering in silence. And to make it even worse, they're very often the betrayer is loved by the family, the friends, the community. So they're taking the hit and protecting the betrayer at their own expense. So here they've had one of the most painful of the human experiences, and they're just trying to act like everything is fine. You know, also when you think about it, when you lose, again, let's use that example of losing someone you love. The invitation is to rebuild your life. Of course, without them, but rebuild your life. Well, with betrayal, there's a complete and total shattering of the self, rejection, abandonment, belonging, confidence, worthiness, trust. So what happens is people say, okay, well, I'm just gonna try to move forward, and they never rebuild the self. And they're wondering why it is that it's decades later and they're still struggling. That's one of the biggest reasons why. And I can go on and on, but betrayal is a very different type of trauma that needs a different way to heal. That was the first discovery.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

It's so powerful that you say that. It's so interesting as you're explaining, right, to us about betrayal in layman's terms, which I love for us to understand. I felt like you were just painting a picture of me. The way you were breaking it down. And but I I did not, for the life of me, I just learned something new. Although I felt it, I could never name it that there's a difference between the betrayal that's extremely powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Because it doesn't my betrayal, what I did is I ended up uh self-betraying a lot. So I lived a lot from self-betrayal. But then now it's like that aha moment made sense to me listening to how you are actually breaking it down as to how we do that. And then also to how they celebrate the betrayal. I always say they celebrate the perpetrator. Society always celebrates the perpetrator. That's why people don't talk about their pain, their betrayal, their shame. It's because society always celebrates the one who did the act.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, and you know, it's like you break your leg and you're running a marathon. I mean, it's impossible. And also the trust is one of the biggest factors here. And I wrote the book Trust again. So I get the importance of trust. But what happens also is, you know, think about it. This was the person you trusted the most who proved untrustworthy. This was the person you'd run to when other people are causing harm, who's become the person causing the harm. So it's the it's it's absolutely unsettling, I mean, to say the least. But but what happens also is one of the biggest parts of the trust piece, well-meaning, you know, coaches, therapists, counselors, they're like, oh, you know, you need to learn to trust again. Uh, and you know, good intentions. And they say, start with the low stakes things, like give, you know, start trusting a friend with something that really isn't that big, right? That is so often. Here's why. We think about it. We have a system to discern trustworthiness. Like we have our own system. Like if someone says or does something 50 or 100 times, whatever it is for us, we say, you know what, I can trust that person. Okay. So now imagine they betray that trust. As shocking as that is, what's even worse that people don't address is we look at it and say, uh-oh, my whole system is broken. My compass is broken. My system that I've created to decide who's safe and who's not is fundamentally flawed. I can't trust myself. You see? And that's extremely powerful. Okay, go ahead. Oh my god. Yeah, but this is why, this is why people say, Oh, you know, they they don't trust and they stay behind walls. Most people do that because they've never learned to rebuild, they just want to trust in others, and I get it, it makes total sense. But think about it, how can you if you don't rebuild that compass? You don't trust anything, anyone, because your whole system, you look at it like my system is broken. I can't trust my own judgment. Look what happened when I did.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

You see, why are you talking about me right now? That's how I was, but now there's just a name to it, and it makes sense. So then you don't trust yourself because the person that betrayed you, you trusted them. So no questioning your own judgment.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, you're questioning everything. Because think about it, if you can't trust the person you trusted the most, the next part of this is you say, Where was I? How did I not see? How did I not know? So if you can't trust the person you trusted the most and you don't trust yourself, how in the world can you trust in anything or anyone? It shows up everywhere. And, you know, this this could lead to the second discovery where um the trust is such a huge factor. We've studied over 100,000 people. And what came out of the second discovery was there's a collection of symptoms so common to betrayal, physical, mental, and emotional symptoms, it's now known as post-betrayal syndrome. And happy to share those facts.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

I mean, this is flow. Please, we need to hear this. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah, and these numbers, the numbers I have actually haven't been updated since we just released the biggest report ever released on betrayal, which has it's 100,000 total, but 73,500 participated in this study. You could find it's on my site. Uh, it's called the State of Betrayal Report. It is staggering what these stats are. They're higher than what I'm going to share with you. But just to give an idea, this is men, women, just about every country is represented. As much as I'm going to share the symptoms, want you to hear these numbers, ready? 78% constantly revisit their experience. So when you think of that, when you think of that, when you're busy going back and going back and revisiting and revisiting, think about how exhausting that is. Think about how you're not moving forward because you're busy in the past. And that's important to do because remember I said about the trust piece that was broken? We do that in the beginning. We keep going back and going back, and we're doing that because we're we're looking for what we missed. Because we're thinking if I can figure out what I miss here, it'll prevent it from happening again. I can regain that sense of safety and security. You see? Now, when we do it for too long, that's because we've created this loop that's keeping us stuck. And if you remind me later, I'll tell you a story about that. Okay. Um, 81% feel a loss of personal power. Think about the decisions you make, what you accept, what you tolerate when you feel a loss of personal power. 80% are hypervigilant, 94% deal with painful triggers. If anybody has ever had a trigger, you know how painful they can be. Uh, some of the most common physical symptoms. 71% have low energy, 68% have sleep issues, 63% have extreme fatigue. That means you go to sleep, you wake up, you're exhausted, your adrenals have tanked. Uh, 47% have weight changes. So in the beginning, maybe you can't hold food down. Later on, you're emotionally eating, using food for crumb.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Just eating.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

That's it, right? You're numbing, avoiding distress just to get through your day. 45% have a digestive issue of some kind. Crohn's IBS, tyberticulitis, reflux, you name it. So common. So I'll tell you a story about the gut issues, if you remind me. Uh, some of the most common mental symptoms. 78% are overwhelmed, 68% can't focus, 62% can't concentrate. Just imagine this. Here you can't concentrate, you can't focus. You're exhausted, you have a gut issue. We're not even talking about the emotional issues yet. And here you're supposed to work every day. You're supposed to raise your kids, take care of your elderly parents, whatever you have going on.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

You see, you know what's scary for me and what's fascinating as you're saying these numbers, and I'll let you continue is how many people live like that. Oh, yeah. For for you will see that in the third discovery. Yeah, but that was my life for listen, Debbie. Not for two years. I mean years and years and years. I live like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

You lived in stage three, and when I get to the third discovery, you'll see most people stay stuck for life, and there's a proven path through all of it. So I'll get to that. I just want to share some more emotional. Yeah, yeah. 88% experience extreme sadness. 83% are very angry, and you're bouncing back and forth between those two all day long. Uh just a few more. 84% have an inability to trust. 84%. So if you can't trust, this is think about how are you moving through life with relationships, with your own judgment, with all of it. 67%, and I know for a fact this number got higher since this, uh, what I'm saying, prevent themselves from forming deep relationships because they're afraid of being hurt again. That means they put the big wall up, keeping out the bad ones, but keeping out the good ones too. The majority of people do that. 82% find it hard to move forward. 90% want to move forward, but don't know how. What's even more staggering about these numbers? You didn't hear me say 20%, 30%, they're super high. This is also 60%.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah. This is also not necessarily a recent betrayal. This could be from your parent who did something awful when you were a kid. This could be from your partner who broke your heart in high school. So think about this. That person may not know, care, remember, they may not even be alive. And here we are, decades later, with these symptoms, because it was left unhealed. The good news is you could heal from all of it. And that was third discovery.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

And before I get to the now, but it's like, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah. And before I get to the third, I want to show you, give you an example of how long you could you could stay stuck with this. For example, this is the gut story. The gut story. So 45% of everyone betrayed, right, has a gut issue of some kind. So we had a woman in our program, and she was in her mid-80s, and she had a 70 plus year digestive issue uh from a family betrayal. She was adopted, they didn't tell her. It was like something like that. So for 70 plus years, you can imagine the supplements, the medications, the protocols, the food, the all of it, just for her to say, I have a bad stomach, it's just who I am, right? Two weeks into healing, the betrayal, two weeks in our program, she healed from a 70 plus year digestive issue. We see that all the time. But most people assume it can't possibly be from something that happened so long ago. When I share the third discovery, you're gonna see how people live with it for life. Want me to share the third?

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Okay. So the third discovery, this was the most exciting. And I'll never forget the moment the study chair, my study chair said, Um, I believe you've discovered a process here because it was undeniable. And what we learned was while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and most people do, if we're going to fully heal, we will move through five proven predictable stages. And what's even more exciting about that is we know what happens physically, mentally, and emotionally at every stage, and we know what we need to do to move from one stage to the next. Healing is entirely predictable. So all we do within the PBT Institute, our programs, our certification is teach the five stages. So coaches, therapists, counselors can move their people through. Individuals can move through the five stages. It is proven, it's predictable. I could share what the five stages are, and um, and you can see it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So the first, yeah, the first one is actually big. Like I know you teach it, but this is big, Debbie. People are living with this for years. Oh, yeah, yeah. And we live in a society where it's telling us to ignore everything that we're dealing with internally and just keep going, keep doing. Yeah. Oh, it's like people are hurting.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

They're there in so much pain. If I tell you how many people say, they'll say to me, Dr. Debbie, I have been struggling with this for 40 years. I can't believe the difference this has made. If I tell you how many coaches and practitioners and therapists I've certified who say, I can't believe I was I was doing the best work I could that works on all of my other clients. And for some reason, it wasn't working on this one resistant client. They weren't resistant, it was a betrayal client. They show up very differently. That's why I wrote my most recent book, Unstuck, for practitioners, because they don't understand. They've never been taught the five stages of betrayal recovery. So they don't know. So the best tools used at the wrong time fail every single time. It's not them, it's not a failure of the tools, it's not a failure of the client or the therapist or counselor or coach. It's that betrayal requires a different process, a different protocol. Anyway, let me share the five. Debbie, show us, show us, yeah. So the first stage is before it happens. And what's what's so interesting here is when we're in what we think is a healthy relationship with a boss, a coworker, a partner, whatever, we're not scanning for beh betrayal. We're we're living our lives, raising our kids, going to work, doing what we have to do. And that's why it comes as such a shock. We're we're thinking and doing more than feeling and being, because we have so much going on that the only way we can get it done is to become almost machine-like. Now, we do something else. We either intentionally or unintentionally turn down our intuition. Now, unintentionally, we're doing it because we're like, we just have way too much to do. So I'm sure there's a logical explanation, you know. I whatever, I'm just too busy. There's got to be a reason for it, whatever. I'm just too busy. But we intentionally, some of us, and I don't want anybody to be upset if this is what you're doing, we intentionally turn down our intuition. And we do that because we're making a decision. If I were to confront my partner, my boss, my whatever, On what I'm what my intuition is telling me, everything I've created is likely to unravel. And I don't have the mental, the emotional, maybe the financial bandwidth to take that on. So instead, I'm gonna act like what I'm thinking it something maybe it's me, maybe I'm misunderstanding. There's gotta be an explanation.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Does this make sense? Makes total sense. What you're explaining is that loud whisper that I tell people, listen to your loud whisper. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Yeah. And we turn that down. We strengthen it afterwards because we realize it doesn't serve us when we turn it down. But we do that anyway. So then now there's stage two, shock, blindsided, D-Day discovery day. This is the scariest of all of the stages. And it's the breakdown of the body, the mind, and the worldview. We've ignited the stress response. We're headed for every single one of those symptoms I shared before. Uh the our our mind is in a complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot understand what we just learned. Our worldview is completely shattered. The bottom bottomed out on this, and a new bottom hasn't been formed yet. This is terrifying. But think about it. If the bottom were to bottom out on you, what would you do? You grab hold of anything or anyone.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Anything to survive anything to hold on, like just to hold on. Hold on to something.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Exactly. And that's stage three, survival instincts emerge. This is the most practical out of all of the stages. If you can't help me, get out of my way. How do I how do I survive this? Here's the trap, though. Stage three, by far, hands down, is the most common place we get stuck. And here's why. Because it feels so much better than the shock and trauma we just came from. We think it's good. And we don't even know there's a stage four or stage five. Transformation doesn't even begin until stage four, but we don't know there's anywhere else to go. So we plant roots here. Now here's the biggest trap. We're able to function again. We're able to go to work again. We're able to manage, but it's with a flatness. It's behind walls. It takes a lot of courage to be willing to learn how to trust again. It takes a lot of courage to be vulnerable. And we're like, you know what? I'm safer right here. And so we do this. And this is what we do for a day, a week, a month, a year, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years. But to add to it, here's also where we start going to therapy. Well-meaning, well-intentioned therapists, you know, and what's happening is we're struggling with this. We feel heard, we feel validated, we feel understood. It's actually locking us in stage three. We're not an inch closer. And when I certify coaches, it's and when I certify therapists, I go through this every single time because with five stages, I coach. I mean, when I'm when I'm certifying someone, I want to make sure it doesn't matter if you move them an inch, five inches, you know, you are moving them towards the next stage. You are not just having them feel heard. What's that doing? That's not serving in the be now. In stage two, it could be very helpful. It is very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

It helps with awareness in stage two, like becoming aware of what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Right. But in stage three, it's locking them in that space. And now, here's also where people join a support group, right? And now they feel like, oh, I have my people. And now what's happening is very often they sabotage their healing because they're afraid to outgrow their people. Very often they're growing and they're they're gonna sabotage their healing because they're afraid to outgrow their betrayer. See this all the time. The other thing is because they're so miserable.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

You are killing me today.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

What? It's it's I mean, this is what we do. Because they're so miserable, but they don't know there's a path out, they don't know the five stages, right? They don't know stage four is waiting for them. Right here, they start numbing, avoiding, distracting. So they start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, TV, whatever, to make the day a bit easier to get through. They do it for, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years, and I can see someone 30 years later and say, that emotional eating you're doing. Do you think that has anything to do with your betrayal? They'd look at me like I'm crazy. It's happened 30 years ago. All they did was put themselves in stage three and stay there. Now, here, here in stage three, you're gonna have repeat betrayals because nothing really changed. Nothing, you know, if nothing changes, nothing changes. You're gonna live with, you're gonna be medicating and suppressing symptoms of post-betrayal syndrome. And you're wondering why life stinks, right? So you go from, you know, one betrayal to the next, symptom to symptom, living this life of just existing and and surviving, by no means thriving. Can I get you out of stage three?

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yes. I'm talking stage three because I was stage three for very and you've said it mostly long time. Most of the time. Yeah, but just to see able to see it in the way you're breaking it down is extremely this is oh my goodness. My audience, I hope you receive this because I'm a coach and hearing it the way you are explaining it.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Yeah. So if you're a co say, right, you're a coach, and I'm gonna tell you one of the biggest disservices you're doing with your clients, because you didn't know, right? One of the biggest things is the client gets to a place that they're fine. You've used all your tools. You're like, I I guess what can I do? I don't know. For some reason, my stuff isn't working with them. And so you graduate that client. That client feels like I guess this is just the best it's gonna get. You feel like something was missing. You graduated them in stage three. They're a betrayal client, they didn't come to you for that, but that's what was at the root of it. So, but think about so you're gonna get one kind of testimonial from them. Yeah, you know, it was helpful. But now think about if you knew stages four and five and you knew the language of stage three, and when you heard it, you start asking questions to injet to gently invite them into stage four, where transformation happens, it starts. And now think of the testimonial and the referrals you get and the income you get because you were able to walk someone through complete and total transformation. It's a game changer. Game changer.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

And what I love about what you said is stage four as a coach, if you get your client, because I always say with my clients, I want them to come to their own knowing, right? It's deep for them to come to their own knowing. I can tell you all the things, but you've experienced it. So let's just dig deep. But with what you just said is so powerful, even for my work. Listening to you when I think about it. So when you put them in stage four, it's kind of like now you're giving them not the permission, the opportunity to really start looking at themselves in that way. Because three, we are stuck. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

And this is in stage four, like this is the part that's fun and rewarding, and the reason why you got into coaching. Here, stage four is very forward-moving. What am I ready for? What am I, what do I want? Who do I want to become? What have I outgrown? How was I settling? And what you're doing is you're taking all the parts you love and you're leaving behind everything that no longer serves. And you're creating a version of you that never would have had the ability to be created had the experience not happened. That's trauma well served. So stage four is very forward-moving, very, you know, you're you're building, you're renewing, you are intentionally and deliberately building a new version of you. When you've settled into this space, you make it cozy, kind of mentally home. You move into the fifth, most beautiful stage, and this is healing, rebirth, and a new world view. Now the body's starting to heal. Self-love, self-care, eating well, exercise. We didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. Now we do. We're making new rules, new boundaries, new all of it. Uh, and if I tell you how many in stage five, new levels of health, new businesses, new passion projects, new relationships with the person who hurt you in a very different way, or someone entirely new. You didn't have access to that when you were stuck in stage three. In stage five, I mean, this is a new life that you've created from the ground up. But people are so afraid of the crash and burn of the old, and that's the only way you build the new. But but that's the that's the challenge. They stay with the familiar known instead of rebuilding. Now, rebuilding is always a choice, whether you, and just to close the loop on my own story, whether you rebuild yourself and move along. And that's what I did with my family. They were deeply stuck in stage three. It was never going to change. I healed and moved along. Or if the situation lends itself, if you're willing, if you want to, you rebuild something entirely new from the ground up. That's what I did with my husband. So as to completely transform people, we not long ago married each other again. Rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids is our bridal party. Now, I consider myself a bright woman. I never would have done anything nearly that dumb if he didn't completely transform Anafied in either. And I've worked with thousands of betrayed and probably hundreds of betrayers. Transformation on both sides is completely, completely possible. Uh, they both have to want individual transformation, and then when they do, they're meeting up again as two very different people.

unknown 32:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Wow. So essentially you become whole again, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:06

You but in a very different way. You're so healthy, so whole, so strong, so healed. Because you're looking at your old self, saying, What parts am I keeping? Was I, you know, big-hearted and kind and loving? That stuff you bring along. But was I settling? Was I just not speaking up? Was I whatever? None of that comes along. None of that. But people aren't willing to do that because they don't like the confrontation of the other person, like, you never used to be like that. What's that about? Or just get over it already. But meanwhile, nothing's really changing. So they're living this stage three life. Most people.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah. And what you said is as you were speaking, what came to mind is what I always say. I feel like just by hearing your story, now you get a chance to rewrite your story on your term. Completely. You know, because a lot of us we live we're living this life from either the inherited identity, and really it's inherited or the trauma that has happened. Like I explained to you, I was in stage three, four years, you know. Most people are, and most people are, but then when you start to get to stage four, you start the transformation. I say that's the time when you have the pen and now you get to rewrite your story on your terms.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

And that's why, you know, when when when I certify coaches and practitioners and they know how to move someone through those stages, what they're able to do with their clients, they're leaving no stone unturned. And and the thing is too, so often, like I certify a lot of uh like leadership coaches and executive coaches, the client isn't coming to them for betrayal. And that's they're coming for success or confidence or more income or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

They get mad at you if you're not talking about internal trauma and all that.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

No, I'm not dealing with that. That's not what I'm here for. And that's the thing. But meanwhile, they don't realize that the biggest block is that unhealed betrayal. And when they know how to talk about it, and never crossing the lines of therapy, when they know how to talk about it, and when they have the tools and the resources to know this is the tool you use to move someone from stage two to stage three. This is what you say to guide them out of stage three into stage four. When they had the the you know, the the the process, the protocol, the all of it, that client is so relieved because they're not stuck because they want to be, they're stuck because they didn't have a roadmap. The roadmap exists, it's the five stages of betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Wow, wow. I love it. I love it, I love it. What happens to a person's voice after betrayal and how do they begin trusting themselves again?

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Yeah, it's rebuilt from the ground up. That's the invitation. And again, they don't have to, you don't have to do anything. But what you want to do is you want to look at it like, yes, you have your story, but the worst of it happened already. You owe it to yourself to move to stage five and get a sense of what that feels like. Because if you had, you know, if people knew for a minute what stage five felt like, they wouldn't waste a second in stage three.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

And I like that you say that, but here's the truth. I I believe the reason why there is no human being on this planet that wants to live in pain. But like you said, if people knew what stage five felt like, they wouldn't be in stages three or two or three, right? It's just a two or three. But I also think that in order to heal, you have to go through what you've been through, and not necessarily physically, but just like how you explain it. You you need to deal with the betrayal, you need to name it, you need to know exactly what's going on and identify what's happening with you. People don't want to live through that. No, people are afraid to live through that. I always say people are comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah. They're comfortable with the pain. Like you said, they know how to handle the pain. Let me just drink, let me not numb it, let me do this, let me have sex, let me do all these different things. Then once they do that, their nervous system and the ego literally sits and starts saying, Okay, we're good, because it's familiar, but it's it's safe.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

You know, I I've been coaching for 35 years, and there's a saying, and it holds true. I haven't found a topic it doesn't work with, and it's this easy now, hard later. Hard now, easy later. Take your pick, it's one of those two. Most people, most people choose easy now. And they're and I know they're looking at me or thinking right now, easy, this is so hard. Yes, it is, but it's easy now because if you don't change the thoughts, the behaviors, the actions, the habits, hard later, your problem is still there, right? As opposed to hard now, I am challenging every single thought, action, behavior, belief, all of it. That's really hard. Easy later, you're creating a new version of you.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

So I have one last question for you before I let you go. And this question I'm going to ask because I've been talking about it for years. I explained to you that I experienced it. And I talk to the women that uh I work with about self-betrayal. I'm a firm believer because you know we tend to always say, this person betrayed me, that person betrayed me. But I'm a firm believer that we are the number one betrayers of self. So talk to women about self-betrayal. Now, from your perspective, maybe the way you're going to break it down and explain it, talk to us about self-betrayal and why women self-betrayal, betray a lot. Yeah, like you know, the number one betrayers of self.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Yeah. It's there's such a close link between betrayal and self-betrayal. Like if you know something, someone is not in your best interest and you're just sticking around for it, that's self-betrayal. And you know, you could we have so many reasons why we do so many things, and I'm not here to judge anybody, but what we're doing, very often we're enabling, you know, we're enabling the situation by, and and in doing so, we're betraying ourselves. Like let's say we're not speaking up, we're tolerating something that isn't in our best interest, we're putting our needs last, wherever it is, you know, that's self-betrayal. Because right? We're so concerned. Well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna ruffle anybody's feathers, I don't wanna, you know, it's easier this way. Again, there's the easy now, hard later, right? So we're just uh we're taking the the we're really paying the price for all of it. And women are so incredibly strong. So strong. So they keep, so just because you can do all of that, you know, okay, I'll just take care of everybody's needs and not even consider my own, doesn't mean you should, you know, and and we you know, and I I guess I've hit that that burnout so many times, I can speak to that as well. Like I was doing it all, four kids, six dogs, a business, and you know, trying to keep it all together. And I kept crashing. And when you finally realize I'm of no use or no value to anyone, most importantly myself, if I put my needs less constantly. But is it hard saying, you know, saying no? Is it hard instituting those boundaries? Yeah, and you are you gonna get the look from someone, huh? What's that about? Yeah. If you can tolerate the 30 seconds of discomfort for, you know, for whatever it is that you that you got back in saying no, it's for an authentic life, I call it, right? For for truth, for freedom, an authentic life. And here's the thing too, when you start having your boundaries, you there's a good chance you may outgrow some people because they liked it when they could, you know, when they knew where you stood, when you didn't speak up, when they you, you know, when they could dump their stuff on you, whatever it was. So um you could you could love them for who they are, where they are, but if that stops you from healing, that's a whole different thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:35

Yeah. This has really blessed me today, blessed my soul. I know it's blessed everyone. So, what I do normally at the end um of my show, I give you I give my guests the floor for you to say whatever you want to say to my audience. And also please don't forget to tell them where they can find you. And obviously, when I release the podcast, I'll make sure that I put all the information there. But I want to give you the floor for you to say whatever it is that you'd like to say to my audience.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Yeah, thank you. So everything is at the PBT is in post-betrayal transformation, the pbtinstitute.com. That's where they can find the program, the certification, the all of it. What I would say is the worst of it happened already. You owe it to yourself to see what it feels like to move through the five stages. And what I will say too, for those of you who've been through it, if you have to say it to yourself a million times, it's worth it. Even though it happened to you, it's not about you. It's not about you. Stop blaming yourself. It's keeping you stuck in stages two and three.

SPEAKER_01 41:43

And there you have it, my beloveds. There you have it. I hope this has blessed you today with Dr. Debbie. It's it's truly blessed me. I'm a coach and I've learned some things um today, which I'm gonna reach out with her because I always like to advance myself, right? I always say that my clients are not a number. So, whatever it takes for me to become a better human being, I believe that you can't lead anyone unless you're a leader in your own life. So, as I continue being a coach, I have to continue refining myself. I have to continue growing and meeting people like Dr. Debbie talking about betrayal, which is a huge part of my life and why I do what I do. It's just um full circle for me. This is everything. So I hope you receive what I've received. And please, please, please do not hesitate to reach out. I know a lot of people think when I reach out to a coach, I have to pay all this money, I have to do everybody does stuff differently. And you never know unless you try. The goal of this podcast is to all of us to kill or to create a better, better, better sense, space of humanity, right? And it starts with you. So again, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Dr. Debbie. Thank you, thank you for the bottom of my heart for taking the time and the space to be with us at the Loud With Podcast. And always remember this is your healing space. Well, until next time, please remember to subscribe, share with your friends, share with the family. One person heals, a generation heals. It just makes the world a better place. Thank you so much and take care.