Hello and thank you for tuning in to the Wellbeing Economy Cymru podcast.
This is our first experimentation with hosting an informal podcast for the Wellbeing Economy movement across Wales.
Firstly, we'd like to have a conversation about housing in a well-being economy before our event on Thursday the 11th of May 2023. In advance of that meeting we explore some of the talking points in relation to the topic of housing.
What would housing look like in a well-being economy?
And, how can we across Wales work together to move towards a housing system that better meets the needs of current and future generations makes housing affordable and accessible to everybody.
Presented by Dawn Lyle, featuring WECymru members Siân Jones, Clive Wychwood, Marcus Bailie, Margot Greer & Stephen Priestnall.
Recorded and edited by Ross Anderson / oomph agency.
Hello and thank you for tuning in to the Wellbeing Economy Cymru podcast.
This is our first experimentation with hosting an informal podcast for the Wellbeing Economy movement across Wales.
Firstly, we'd like to have a conversation about housing in a well-being economy before our event on Thursday the 11th of May 2023. In advance of that meeting we explore some of the talking points in relation to the topic of housing.
What would housing look like in a well-being economy?
And, how can we across Wales work together to move towards a housing system that better meets the needs of current and future generations makes housing affordable and accessible to everybody.
Presented by Dawn Lyle, featuring WECymru members Siân Jones, Clive Wychwood, Marcus Bailie, Margot Greer & Stephen Priestnall.
Recorded and edited by Ross Anderson / oomph agency.
Hello, and thank you for tuning in to the Wellbeing Economy Cymru podcast. This is our first experimentation with hosting an informal podcast. For the wellbeing economy movement across Wales. I'm Dawn Lyle I'm one of the volunteer organisers at WE Cymru, and together with my colleagues on our steering group, really passionate about raising the profile and the understanding of wellbeing economics across Wales.
Sîan Jones:What we'd like to do today is have a conversation about housing and wellbeing economy. We've got an upcoming open forum, a discussion event on Thursday, the 11th of May. And in advance at that meeting, we'd like to explore some of the talking points in relation to the topic of housing, what would housing look like in a wellbeing economy? And how can we, across Wales work together to move towards a housing system that better meets the needs of current and future generations, makes housing affordable and accessible to everybody, we sort of think that everyone should have the right to hire a reasonable quality, affordable housing. But obviously, there's a housing emergency a housing crisis, and I think Shelter Cymru has said that one in four people across Wales are struggling due to the housing emergency. So we'd like to unpack all of this. Sian is my colleague, who helps to keep us organised here at Wellbeing Economy Cymru. Sian, you've been putting some thought into a housing forum, what do you think are some of the key talking points and issues that might come out in our forum on the 11th of May?
Dawn Lyle:For me, I think the issue is around making sure that housing is where people need it to be, is something that delivers for them what they need. I'm also involved in the private rented sector, as well as being a property developer. So for me, it's about making sure that we consider who is going to use our housing. And I am very concerned about the number of people pulling out of the private rental sector, and what that's going to do to the price, the reasonable price for people and the fact that they're not going to find places, I think there's issues around not only urban but rural locations, and there's issues around locations where affordable housing is put, especially in terms of proximity to services. So I think my big issue is around the private rented sector to understand a little bit better, how we could improve things for those landlords, many of whom only have one or two units, how we could make it better for them and make it a more, I suppose, a better experience for their tenants as well. Yeah. Interesting to start with the perspective of private sector, landlords and rental accommodation, I think the Welsh Government are doing quite a lot to improve the quality and I guess, maybe regulate the sector. And I wonder what impact that is having on private sector landlords, and therefore, as you say, the availability of of accommodation. We have big housing associations, registered social landlords across Wales, that have a big stake in our housing system. But as you say, the private sector is a key player as well. And what are the issues there? Stephen, what are your thoughts? What do you think are some of the talking points around housing for a Wellbeing Economy.
Stephen Priestnall:Yeah, I mean, building on what Sian has been talking about thinking about the private sector, that the thing that's always in my head, when we're trying to look at what the future wellbeing economy is, is the word economy, as a couple of, there's a couple of lenses to look at this through as well as one as the one of the problems we've got to deal with. But the other is, what are the opportunities we can move towards that? What is a, you know, we challenge ourselves with what is the what as Wellbeing Economy housing look like but that that should be in a perspective of how can it be a great place to be? And I wonder whether, you know, as part of our kind of GDP obsession that we've moved ourselves into now, we've we've we've flipped the idea of housing into a financial asset as opposed to a place to live and not to remove that the private sector and you know, the financial services industry from the mix, but perhaps, perhaps the future is a one where that it's a less of a foundation. And surely that would provide better access to more people to, to, to more affordable housing. So my thought was how does an economy work where we're not fundamentally dependent upon those who own a house to have it as a financial asset. And then if that changes, what else changes as a consequence, and as the economy kind of shift around a little bit as a result of that?
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, I suppose speculation around property and people buying property as an investment has definitely created huge problems, hasn't it? Second home ownership.
Stephen Priestnall:I think so yeah.
Dawn Lyle:Like holding property in land banks. So in a wellbeing economy, housing would be would serve the purpose of giving people accommodation rather than as a sort of financial instrument?
Stephen Priestnall:Yeah, I think, first and foremost, housing is housing. And then if there are, you know, like other assets that you invest in as a person, or you commit to through a long term tenancy agreement that, you know, there's a consequence of that, that's fine. But I think in a wellbeing economy, it wouldn't feel like the thing you had to do to get on the housing ladder, I think that concept would would move away.
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, and yeah, hard nut to crack that one about sort of land ownership and property. Margot, I'd love to hear from you. What do you think are some of the key issues and talking points.
Margot Greer:This is an area that I don't have any personal expertise in. But looking at some of the data, it isn't just housing, it's the land on which the housing exists. And one of the most staggering to me, pieces of statistics from the ONS is that land value represents 60% of the UK wealth, but 70% of the land is only owned by 1% of the population. So the cost or the, as Stephen says, you know, the people who are using that land as a financial asset are pretty key players in the total cost of housing. I mean, in that way, yeah, land ownership is just a huge driver of inequality, isn't it? Just that entrenched, entrenched inequality, I'd love to hear sort of alternative models. And perhaps some of that will come through in our forum here, sort of alternative models. And perhaps some of that will come through in our forum. One of the issues I think, though, when you look at it in that ons way, is that you don't take into account vast estates, you know, bits of Scotland, which may make up that larger land ownership doesn't necessarily mean that those people actually have housing on on their land. I mean, as you say, Margot is really key way of opening the discussion. But I've sometimes think that if we were to go down that route, we might find that we come to a rather disappointing end. Whereas you know, we are a group of optimists here, we want to work on what is realistic, what we can do, what we can encourage people to do, and how we can encourage people to do them and to take strength and comfort from the fact and confidence that all is possible confidence from the comfort that all is possible.
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, and you know, that's one of our missions, isn't it? Wellbeing Economy Cymru is to demonstrate actually, that lots of things are already happening here in Wales, there are really great examples of the future that we want to see and maybe not at the right scale that we need them to happen. But there are those chinks of light, there are kind of pockets of good practice happening. And one of the things we really appreciate about our monthly forums is bringing people together to tell us what they're up to, and shine a light on those good practice. One of the things that's happening across Wales and I know it's got its challenges and is by no means everyone accepting that it's a great idea, but it's the idea of 'one planet developments' as a way forward for building environmentally sustainable homes, on perhaps on land in rural areas where there isn't a huge amount of housing? Clive I'd really like to bring you in here as one of our volunteer organisers at WE Cymru you're actually living on one planet development or doing one planet development. I'm not sure what the terminology is, do you think that points, points in the direction of Wellbeing Economy housing?
Clive Wychwood:Yeah, I mean, it's certainly one stream. And that for me, I mean, just listening to everything that we've been talking about, I totally agree that disruption, or sort of emergence of new ideas, with regard to how the economy works, how ownership, for example, whether we have concepts of speculation and those realities, they're vital, of course, but the wellbeing economy isn't just about the future, as we keep saying, it's about the present. We are living in a wellbeing economy now. It's a nascent form, but we're emerging into something that is a reality. So what are the innovations? What are the the ideas that exist in the here and now that can only multiply going forward? And things like Passive Housing? It exists now. I mean, it's a concept that there's, there's an off-grid Passive House, that's part of the One Planet development plan or the one planet development scheme. That's the very first one in the UK, that that exists. And yet, it's an exemplar, it's a, it's a model that can be used, not just within one planet development, and that's one of the key things about things like OPD it's an example for what could be used elsewhere in the mainstream, to be taken forward.
Dawn Lyle:Controversial, though, isn't it? I've seen in Pembrokeshire's council papers, there's some ongoing challenge around whether counsellors are supportive of one planet developments and farmers saying, you know, it's not fair. Why can't I build a house on my land for the next generation of farmers and whereas you can build a one planet development, you kind of think, well, perhaps the next generation of farmers could build one planet developments? Zero carbon houses?
Clive Wychwood:Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, yes, both Pembrokeshire I'm aware that both in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthen different counsellors have put for moratorium on one planet development. But that's exactly it. If, if the concept could be embraced as something that actually exists for Wales for Welsh people, it isn't a concept of, you know, kind of shoe-horning or allowing immigrants for example, to come into that to come into the area and sneak into to land that people here have been failing to to develop on, this is actually, it is Welsh policy. It belongs to Wales. And it is something that all Welsh communities and farmers and potential developers and all people can embrace and use in their own way, that it's not tied to a certain way of doing things. There are so many different ways that a one planet development could could be put together, how a management plan could be developed, and the world's your oyster from that point of view, and it really does give people the opportunity to, to, to, to meet so many different targets and so many different priorities as a way of going forward. They just need to be able to see it.
Dawn Lyle:Rural, rural housing is a huge issue, isn't it? And Margot, you and I are involved in various conversations about food and food has been an issue we've been talking about in Wellbeing Economy Cymru as well. And one of the challenges for growing more food and promoting more farming in Wales is the availability of housing in rural areas.
Margot Greer:I was particularly noticing when Clive was speaking that he seems to be talking more about stewardship of land than ownership. And I think maybe that idea is one that we could build on, you know, to be more positive about what the opportunities are. And we know that there's a project in a in Our Food 1200, you know, where they're looking for another way of providing affordable housing for land workers. You know, there's a new Agriculture Bill in these in the Senate, you would hope that they would be looking at, you know, the percentage of older farmers maybe not able to passing their property on to their younger family members, but finding a way of getting that stewardship of the land, especially to do it to use the land for for horticulture into wider hands somehow.
Dawn Lyle:So maybe some of that will come through in our forums. Stephen, what other talking points are you keen for us to explore,
Stephen Priestnall:There's a couple of things that I've just triggered in my head listening to Clive and Margot, is I love that idea of stewardship and, and but not associating it just with the cultural agriculture. Just think about the idea of stewardship of the land of Wales, whether you're in the middle of a city, or whether you're in an urban regeneration area, or post industrial community and I think this this speaks is one of the things that we always try and do when we bring these forums together, which is to invite people on a journey starting from where they are, not asking them to make a big leap to a place in the future. So we have to bring them we have to bring investors with us, we have to bring the finance industry with us. We have to bring developers with us, but now we also have to bring their sustainability community with us. And I think that is a you know, that might be a really nice idea to drop into the discussion and the forum, they say what a stewardship means for all of you around the room? Do you feel an obligation to stewardship? Do you feel excited by the idea of stewardship? I think that that might be a an interesting way of kind of presenting our we start from here.
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, great. Marcus, what are your thoughts? Marcus, you're part XR. You know, you're a climate activist. I don't know whether you've just come back from the big one. That what do you think are the kind of key talking points around housing?
Marcus Bailie:Yeah, well looking at this issue from a sustainability and environmental perspective, I would like to think that our forum will tease out quite a lot about retrofitting. Wales has got one of the worst housing stocks in Europe. And as Stephen was saying, we need to start from where people are not where they would like to be on I think retrofitting, particularly a muchness of retrofitting private sector, local authority, schemes across country starting to spring up, and it'd be great if we could get to hear from some of them as to how they've been able to approach that how have they been able to make it affordable? How it could have done stage by stage, you don't have to have a huge investment, and so forth. It's frightening to travel around the country, seeing just how many people still have draughty, single pane, windows and doors when heat just pours out. So I'm hoping that retrofitting would be a big part of the forum.
Dawn Lyle:That brings us back to the private sector and the challenge for private sector, homeowners and land lords, Sian, doesn't it?
Sîan Jones:It does. But it doesn't necessarily have to be a barrier. I think it's all about being able to do it in a way that works for people. I know that we've got we're lucky that one of the RSLs is going to come in, and they're going to talk about how they've been working with modular builds, to improve environmental quality on some of their buildings, which are in quite an exposed location. And I think as soon as you start to see people doing it, then I think that is that is the key to everything, that you start to see what is possible, and how it can be done. And people realising that we have no choice but to act in a responsible manner. You know, the reason I'm focused on private rented sector is because I perceive there's more units in private rented sector than there are in residential social landlords. And for me, it's a really big bite. It's a really big bite of the cherry to see how we could move that forward. And that that will be interesting.
Dawn Lyle:Absolutely. Margot.
Margot Greer:I'm hoping that we have a chance to make at least a passing reference to the biophilic Swansea construction project in Swansea. Not that many people know about it yet. But they, my understanding is that they're having to use the materials that are in the old building without a recourse to new materials, except for where there's an expansion of space, and they're including flat level growing, as well as vertical growing there. The other example that we've been hearing about is one that's part of the DONUT economics work in Amsterdam, where the construction industry was one of the first sectors to try and take on the, what Marcus talks about retrofitting. And once they made it a bylaw, that, you know, construction, industry couldn't use new material, where there was existing materials to be used, and made it a level playing field, then it seemed to solve the construction industry was more than willing to get on with that, and, and use it. So I hope we can bring in some examples.
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, I would love to explore different best practices around retrofitting and converting old buildings into new uses. There does seem to be more energy around repurposing existing structures, rather than knocking them down and building new which obviously, there's so much embedded carbon isn't there in existing buildings. That it's not without challenge.
Stephen Priestnall:Dawn I was I was just thinking as Margot was described that example, we had a forum recently on behaviour change, didn't we and some of the science behind behaviour change, and some of the models will have to be implemented. And then what Margot's described in Amsterdam is a really interesting model for encouraging behaviour change. And that's the one where regulation has had a role to play in nudging organisations construction companies towards a different way of thinking. And I think maybe that's something for us to think about, too.
Sîan Jones:Well, we've, we've come across the repurposing of steel, and we in one of our forums,
Stephen Priestnall:We have yeah,
Sîan Jones:We know that there is a lot of repurposing of hard building materials, you know, rubbles, and stone, the thing that's going to be of interest to me is also I get the feeling that over the last 40 years, the quality of build is not so good. And so one wonders whether or not we're actually giving an old building a lease of life, and if we can actually do quite a lot more with our existing buildings and repurpose some of the wonderful buildings that we have in our communities that, you know, give our communities flavour and shape and colour and texture. So it would be we're good to see, you know, people, as you say, Margot, I know that the the the old Woolworths Building is of no great loveliness, but there are buildings that are rather lovely.
Clive Wychwood:And just to follow up on that the the loss of the old stone buildings when they're being retrofitted, there are so many different crafts out there, the lime crafts, and the old techniques, which can be brought back in where new industry were new. A new economy can actually be created by actually embracing some of these crafts, which are, which have been up until recently, pretty much dying out, instead of just retrofitting them with new techniques with more modern techniques and more modern methods, which aren't quite as sympathetic to the old stone nature in which they were built.
Dawn Lyle:Yeah, that's really lovely point that we haven't thought about is, you know, housing as a driver of community wealth building and like bringing back those local skills and local businesses, to Yeah, into that housing system and the construction sector. I also would love to get into thinking about cohousing as a solution. You know, we've got this obsession haven't been in the UK of, you know, single family housing. But with all the challenges around the affordability of housing, I wonder whether kind of intergenerational solutions and building cohousing communities I think there are some examples starting to happen across Wales. But there there is the idea that different models of how we live completely rethinking how we live and rather than us all in our isolated boxes, could we create community housing and community led housing. I think we've got Claire White joining us from CUMPAS as one of our panellists and she has been doing a lot of work around community led solutions housing, cohousing is probably one of them. community land trusts we talked about ownership and stewardship. What's the role of community land trust's? Is that something that can empower communities to take ownership of land and assets to make affordable housing on a hyperlocal level? So I'd love to explore what's happening in Wales around that. And really, I think it will be a wide ranging discussion like all of our open forums, we go into it thinking we've got a number of questions and we come out, inspired and energised by lots of different perspectives and different examples of what's happening already across Wales, but also the ideas and perspectives that different people have. So if you're listening to this, and you think we've missed something, or you think there's more to say, on what housing would look like in a wellbeing economy, then please, I would encourage you to come along to our discussion forum on Thursday, the 11th of May, it's on zoom from 7pm. And you can find all the details on our website, wellbeingeconomy.cymru these sessions really are open to everybody. So even if you're not an expert, please come along and join the discussion. We'll have a great panel with more expertise than we have. But our role really is to ask the questions and provoke the discussion, and we'll look forward to seeing you there. But thank you for tuning in to our first ever podcast. We're hoping that this might be an opportunity for us to engage with more audiences who haven't got time to come along to our to our events and who would like to get involved in our movement to make wellbeing economics a real force for good across Wales. We've enjoyed discussing housing and we'll see you again soon as we tackle other topics and subjects that we think are driving the emergence of a wellbeing economy for Wales. Thank you very much.