Episode #130: The Potential Within The Black Church, Perpetuating White Supremacy, An Interesting Definition Of Sin & Why You Got It By Right!, With Rev. Karmen Michael Smith, Author Of Holy Queer: The Coming Out Of Christ

INTRODUCTION:

Born and raised in small-town Texas, Karmen Michael Smith is a Black queer theologian, cultural critic, author, and Lizzie Mae’s grandson. Karmen is the founder and pastor at Poor Culture, an inclusive and affirming Black church experience. Karmen serves as Deputy Director – Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Accessability (DEIA) at U.S. International Development Finance Corporation. 

Holy Queer: The Coming Out of Christ, written by Rev. Karmen Michael Smith, is a groundbreaking book that delves into the intersection of faith, queerness, and spirituality. In this thought-provoking work, Rev. Smith challenges traditional interpretations of religious texts and affirming the LGBTQ+ Community within Christianity. With sensitivity, insight, and theological depth, Holy Queer invites readers to reconsider their understanding of the divine and embark on a journey towards a more inclusive and compassionate faith. 

INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

 ·      A Look Into Rev. Smith’s Book: Holy Queer

·      Why You Got It By Right!

·      Interesting Insight Into The Black Church

·      Has The Church Lost It’s Way?

·      Small Church vs. Megachurch

·      New York Pride

·      Overcoming Rejection As A Child

·      When Society Challenges Authenticity 

·      Social Anxiety 

·      How Isolation Kills 

·      An Interesting Definition Of Sin

·      Where Has The Joy Gone???

·      What Happened To Big Mama???

·      Dad Jokes!!! =)

CONNECT WITH REV. SMITH:

Website: https://www.holyqueerbook.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/karmenstagram/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karmenmsmith/

CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON:

Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

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Magic Classes: https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/magical-lessons/

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Transcript

Episode #130: The Potential Within The Black Church, Perpetuating White Supremacy, An Interesting Definition Of Sin & Why You Got It By Right!, With Rev. Karmen Michael Smith, Author Of Holy Queer: The Coming Out Of Christ

[00:00:00]

You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.

There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.

De'Vannon: Hello, hello, hello. All of my beautiful children out there and welcome back to the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast. I love you all so much. I look forward to your continued growth and ascension. Today I have with me the great and mighty Reverend Carmen Michael Smith. He is the author of the book, Holy Queer.

De'Vannon: And he is going to get both into his book and his personal upbringing in this here episode, y'all. Now, this episode was [00:01:00] recorded back in May, June. I apologize if any of it is outdated, and I thank you for your continued patience with me as I work very hard to try to get these episodes out. Thank you so much.

De'Vannon: In this episode, we're going to be talking about everything from racism to social anxiety, the dangers of isolation. And the good Reverend has a very interesting definition of sin that I want y'all to take a listen to. I think it's quite, quite on the nose. Thank you again. Enjoy the show.

De'Vannon: I give you Reverend Carmen Michael Smith. Hello, all you blessed people, and welcome back to yet another installment of the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast. Boy, have I got a guest for you. Today, I am joined by the mighty and powerful, insightful, Reverend Carmen Michael Smith. Isn't that a beautiful, poetic, electric name that just poured out of my mouth like, I don't know, a million butterflies dancing in glitter on a [00:02:00] gleeful Sunday, summer day.

De'Vannon: How are you doing? The good reverend, the good reverend. How are you doing? Carmen? 

Rev. Smith: I am doing well. And thank you so much for 

De'Vannon: having me. Absolutely. Now y'all, he's the author of a thought provoking, challenging book that challenges you in the best way. It's quite intriguing. It's called holy queer, holy queer, the coming out of Christ.

De'Vannon: Now Carmen was born, Reverend Carmen Michael Smith was born and raised in a small town, Texas. He's a black queer theologian, cultural critic, author, as I just said, and now he's going to tell you why he refers to himself as Lizzie Mae's grandson. She sound like, she sound like she can make quite a pot of greens, honey.

De'Vannon: And he's the founder and pastor at 4Culture. [00:03:00] Which is an inclusive and affirming black culture experience. He can tell you about his nonprofit and he also serves as the director of the Center for Community Engagement and Social Justice at Union Theological Seminary to advance the causes of social justice.

De'Vannon: No justice, no peace, viva la resistance, all of that. Go ahead, I'll give you the floor to say whatever it is you would like to say as we spin this thing open. Well, I would say thank you for 

Rev. Smith: having me. And yes, I am Lizzie Mae's grandson. She does, she did make a good pot of greens. She was a fantastic singer, church mother in the Kojic Church in the South.

Rev. Smith: And she loved her grandson me, and she also loved her son, who was gay, and she loved her niece, who's a lesbian, and she loved her whole family and set the tone. And she... Was a formidable opponent who would always say, I love you enough to talk some sense into you. [00:04:00]And so she would tell you hard truths and love in a way that you could receive it.

Rev. Smith: And so I'm Lizzie May's grandson, and happy to be here talking with 

De'Vannon: you, . Well, thank you Lizzie. May for the work that you have done to to help bring Carmen to us today. Now y'all, he he grew up in the south. But I want to let you know he's been delivered from the South. He broke free. He's out there.

De'Vannon: You're in California or are you in... New York. You're in New York. Okay. I don't know why. I think because our interview was set for Pacific Standard Time. I don't know. Why did I set it for that? I'm going to edit this part out. But why did I set it for Pacific Standard Time? I was on 

Rev. Smith: sabbatical in Columbia, and so it probably connected that time, and I'm back in New York.

De'Vannon: Okay. Well, well, I'm glad, I'm glad it all worked out. I completely missed that. So, all right, well then, [00:05:00] so, well, shit, fuck, you still made it out. You're in a better place. You're, you're up in New York right now. And then I saw that when I looked on your LinkedIn. I saw it and it didn't click. Yeah, I'll be up there in a couple of weeks for Pride.

De'Vannon: Have you, have you done New York Pride before? I have. 

Rev. Smith: I did it for the first time, although I've been here like 18 years, it is massive. And crowds in New York, you tend, if you're in New York, you tend to stay away. But I did it for the first time. Before the pandemic, I believe, and then I did it after the pandemic but I didn't go to the parade last year, but this year I will be preaching on Pride Sunday morning at the Historic Riverside Church in New York.

Rev. Smith: So that has been a big deal. That's the, like, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, they go to preach there when they were here. So when I got invited, I had to sit down for a moment and say, wait, do y'all have the right person? So they've invited me to to preach for Pride Sunday. 

De'Vannon: Well, hallelujah, tabernacle, and praise.

De'Vannon: What time is that service? [00:06:00]

Rev. Smith: That's 11 to 11. 45. 

De'Vannon: Ooh, that's short and sweet and to the point there. 

Rev. Smith: I mean, sometimes, you know, they get to 12. But yeah, it is short and sweet and to the point. My sermon is only about 15 to 17 minutes. So you don't have to, you can still make the parade and see Billy Porter 

De'Vannon: kick it off.

De'Vannon: Oh, that's the whole service at 45 minutes. Okay. Well, they start 

Rev. Smith: the prelude of music around 10. 45 and then service starts at 11 and 

De'Vannon: there we go. Well, child, if I can make it from the brunch, I got my all inclusive VIP ticket to the brunch. I have to see what time it's at. I don't know if it's a conflict, but if it's not, I'm going to twirl through margarita in hand.

De'Vannon: It's 

Rev. Smith: okay. It's live stream, so you can watch it there or watch it 

De'Vannon: later. Oh, okay. Because, you know, I'll come up in the church with my fan and my margarita. I'm like, it's communion. Don't, don't judge me. 

Rev. Smith: No judgment. Don't judge me. 

De'Vannon: Okay. So I was religion news. com. I found I was [00:07:00] researching you. They, they did an interview with you and y'all, he has quite a few media interviews out there.

De'Vannon: And this quote that you gave them was, you said that you focus on the black church in your criticism because you love the black church. I thought that this was a beautiful quote to have you kind of deconstruct for us because I feel like it sets the tone for what we're going to talk about and for the book that you wrote.

Rev. Smith: Yeah, the quote and I get asked about this all the time. I must preface this by saying that Toni Morrison interview that y'all probably see online a lot where the person asked her, do you have, will you ever write about white characters or something like that? And she was like, you have no idea how racist that is because you wouldn't ask a white person, you know what they write about black characters.

Rev. Smith: And. In my very first interview, someone said, so you dedicate this book to the Black church, and this is all about [00:08:00] the Black community. But couldn't it be, like, for other people as well? And I'm like, yes. And they pushed me on why wouldn't I just say that? And I'm like, well, it's also my experience. It's about the Black church.

Rev. Smith: It's about a little Black gay boy growing up in the church. So I'm talking to my community and my experience. And they were really resistant to even wanting to publish me saying, That this was not a white focused book, and I'm saying, no, it has greater amplification, but this is about the black community because this is how I grew up in the black church and the black church has a power so much.

Rev. Smith: Even if people don't go to church, if you look around us, everything that the black church has created. Everyone else is emulated, from the way we sing, to the way we preach, to the way we dress, to the black woman who's sassy and got that church band in her hand. I mean, how many church bands are now in every club and drag show?

Rev. Smith: I mean, everything the black church [00:09:00] creates, the world emulates. And so, if you think of like Sylvester, Sylvester came from the black church. And so, there is so much wealth of talent. LGBTQ plus creativity and leadership. There's so many Black women. There's so much wealth within the Black church that I say, we get it right here.

Rev. Smith: If we sweep around our own front door and clean our own house, then the world, we can then, like, let them emulate that. But what we're producing right now is not inclusive. It is not loving, and I question whether it is both black and church, if it's not those two things.

De'Vannon: Amen, and amen. Look at how, I love how deep and well thought out that it is. You know, this book was written for love, and basically what I'm hearing you say is that the church has gotten away from its [00:10:00] original purpose. 

Rev. Smith: Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think in all of the largest and all of the big buildings and all of the we've got 20, 000 members and 50, 000 members and all of the, I mean, if you think about all the social movements and all of the stuff that actually happened in the church, it didn't happen in a mega church.

Rev. Smith: It happened in these small congregations where the pastors were May have had a Cadillac, but those pastors went to the hospital when your family got sick, came to your house to bless your house when someone needed. They actually drove over to your house in the middle of the night to help. They are serving in communities.

Rev. Smith: And when people say, you know, I don't like pastors, I don't like that, whatever. I'm like, I understand. But I would also offer that the majority of pastors who are pastoring in, in the black church, okay. Are not mega churches. They're not mega pastors. They don't have book deals. They don't have a [00:11:00] million dollar followings.

Rev. Smith: They don't have 50, 000 members. The median church has about 230 members, and that ain't 230 people who show up every week. So I'm just saying that there is still power within the church if the church can continue to. Hold to its mission of service while also looking at the congregation in the pews.

Rev. Smith: Every pastor is told, hopefully still, but when I was growing up, you preach to the congregation in the pews. That doesn't mean I'm outside looking for it to get 20 more people to come in and 50 more members who was in my congregation, meet those needs. And so if we can get back to doing that, then we can look at our congregations and see that there are women, there are trans, there's lesbian and gay, there's non binary, there is rich, there is poor.

Rev. Smith: These are our congregations. Minister. Don't talk down to, but minister to your congregation. 

De'Vannon: Why did you become a reverend? [00:12:00]

Rev. Smith: I was called to ministry in 2011, and I've always known, I'll say that, because when I was a little kid, we had a prophetic pastor. I was about four years old, and my mom loves the story about, at the end of this choir rehearsal, he picked me up and said, say something into the mic, and I don't know what I mumbled I was for, but he said in front of everyone there, when he's done dancing, he's gonna preach.

Rev. Smith: And I always said, nope. That ain't my story because I, one, won't behold, won't be beholden to Black people trying to keep me minimized, minimized in the Black church. You know, we'll pay you a little bit and then we'll keep you humble. So I was like, I don't want to depend on that for my money. And I also knew, like, I'm gay.

Rev. Smith: They don't want a gay pastor. But when God called me, I heard what I know to be the voice of God said, I want you to minister and I want you to do it differently. It took about three days for me to say, okay, yeah. But then I spent the next 10 years trying to figure out what different was. [00:13:00] But I, I serve because it's what I'm called to do.

Rev. Smith: And when I say it feeds me, it really does. I can get very much lost in ministry. I meet people in amazing places around the world. And when I got it, I got what this calling was and what God was asking me to do was sitting at a. Maybe shout a birthday party like a brunch in New York, and I went to the bar to get a drink, and this person came up and started talking to me, and within like a couple of minutes, there was a crowd around me as I'm talking about faith and spirituality, and I'm realizing we just had a quick little service right here at the bar.

Rev. Smith: That's doing it differently. That's going to the people and not telling the people to come to you. That's what a Jesus ministry was, was the moving about and meeting people where they were. And I said that I can do. The purple suits and the shiny shoes, I can't do that. But this type of ministry 

De'Vannon: I [00:14:00] can do.

De'Vannon: Right. And I hear you because I remember when I was younger, the the pastors used to come around and bring my grandmother they used to come around and bring my grandmother communion at the house, you know, and everything like that. So for you, do you, do you have like a mobile ministry to explain people exactly how you minister?

De'Vannon: Where you do it from. 

Rev. Smith: So I started a year before the pandemic, actually, I heard the voice of God say, I started digital ministry. So I was doing I went and took some DJ lessons. So I was spinning gospel music for the first 15 minutes all through the pandemic, and then I would preach a short message and then we would do sort of like a, what I considered a free will offering, which was.

Rev. Smith: Scroll through the names that you see here on this live, and if a name pops out at you, if you feel convicted, cash out that person, doesn't have to be anything big, but just to let them know you see them or that you felt compelled, and I [00:15:00] would ask for, like, the next 10 minutes, everyone put your cash out in the live, and if someone feels so convicted, share.

Rev. Smith: That's how we did offering, and we did that for about a year and a half, and then As people started going back out into the world, I heard it's time to pivot, like do something different, and I wasn't sure again what different was, so I put a pause on it. And now what I'm doing, other than going to various churches and preaching, is I'm building a app that allows people across the world, especially my brothers and sisters in Africa, who are being criminalized for being LGBTQ but an app that allows them to still have service and community with poor culture, based on Matthew 5, 3, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of God.

Rev. Smith: So poor culture is building a digital... Experience where you still get the same good church music. You will say you will get a plethora of sermons that you can choose from depending on what you need, how you need to be ministered [00:16:00] to and a few other features, but that will be ready in probably another 60 days.

Rev. Smith: But for right now, I am going to different churches around the country preaching as invited, which pride Sunday here in New York City. June 25th at 11 a. m. I will be preaching at the historic Riverside Church here in New York City. So you have time to swing by there and get a message and then go on to brunch or go on to the parade.

Rev. Smith: But yeah, a really big deal to be in a Riverside 

De'Vannon: Church. Oh, I'm totally going to be able to come there because I was thinking that the Sunday you're going to be doing is the kickoff Sunday. You're doing the The Sunday after the brunch I was talking about is the one on the 18th, I think that one.

De'Vannon: Hopefully you can make it to that brunch. It looks like it's going to be snatched for the gods. And oh my gosh, this is my first time coming to New York pride. I've been in New York a bunch of times, but I'm a New York [00:17:00] pride virgin. I'm a little baby and I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be there like maybe like 13 days or something, two weekends.

De'Vannon: I'm twirling. It's the energy, 

Rev. Smith: I want to say, if no one's ever done it I was an adult when I first did it, and there's an energy, if you've ever been to a Janet Jackson concert, it's something you can't explain to people that like, it's almost spiritual, that everyone is on one accord. And everyone is here for this intention of joy and liberty and freedom and I don't know and it just and you embody it and that's what happens during pride here in New York City, you go down to that parade.

Rev. Smith: And although there's so many people and it is hot, and you smell the herbal essence and you see people you know with a little flask. But there is a. Family cookout kind of vibe of like, everyone is here, but [00:18:00] the intention is joy and freedom and liberation, and you just can be intoxicated on the vibe that is there because you see these youngins, as I call them, you know, we use that term in the church, but you see the teenagers and you see the families, and then you see These groups of people who are like, you know, we give out mom hugs.

Rev. Smith: So it's just like a group of women who are like, look, if you have been kicked out of your house, if you no longer, if you are estranged from your parents, just come by here as you're walking through the parade, come by and get a hug from us. And they say these affirmations to you when they hug you to just, I've never been to something where there was this much love.

De'Vannon: I'm hoping that, that, that, that I can just throw myself in the midst of that cloak of love and just like receive a healing as I contribute to, to, to that love as well. I'm, I feel like it's the sort of thing I can walk [00:19:00] into one way and come out differently on the other side. And I'm all about transitions and transformations right now.

De'Vannon: And I believe that I'm coming up there for such a time as this. And well, 

Rev. Smith: radical surrender, I would say to the experience, radical surrender, which just is I am in every place that your foot trades. Just remember, I am. And absorb. And that which does not feel safe for you, step out of it and move to the next space.

Rev. Smith: But just radical surrender to, there are people here who look like you and don't look like you and think like you and don't think like you and will embrace you and some will still shave you. And so, but there is still this overall. I don't know, incompensating love that the baptists were two or three together.

Rev. Smith: So shall I be in the midst? And I feel like pride celebration here, which [00:20:00] people forget pride began as a resistance to, to police brutality and targeting, which we see in the black community. So here in New York city, I don't know in a lot of other cities. But it is straight. It is gay. It is allies. It is churches.

Rev. Smith: It is everyone comes together here in New York City for pride. 

De'Vannon: I'm looking forward to doing a show about it. Perhaps when I get back and spilling all the beans on it. So I want to read a portion. From your book about the about the a rather negative experience that you had. So, everybody get your cup of tea out and everything, as Mama Rupong would say, reading is very fundamental and, you know, sometimes we just got to get back to our A's and our B's and also our C's.

De'Vannon: While in first grade, my sister was going to visit a girlfriend of hers. Her friend's brother, my classmate, was having [00:21:00] some friends over, and somehow I was invited to join my sister. We walked over, and as we rounded the corner, I could see a group of boys playing football on the front lawn. One of the guys pointed in my direction and yelled, He's a sissy!

De'Vannon: The game stopped, and they all looked in my direction, pointing and commenting. I kept walking with my sister, knowing I couldn't turn and run. So while she played with her friends inside, I sat on the sidelines, busying myself until time to leave. Now and again, I'd approached the adult seeking a place of refuge, but back then a child's place was in a child's place, so I was turned away to go back and play with the kids.

De'Vannon: How did, how did that experience affect you being called that very negative term, and then feeling like you had nowhere to go to?

Rev. Smith: I think it affected me. No, I know. It affected me as it cultivated [00:22:00] my independence. I am very much a. introvert that performs as an extrovert. I learned very early on that the world wasn't safe for me. So I began to mentally create other worlds and be by myself. Solitude became safe. I'm a homebody going out is not something that I have ever truly enjoyed.

Rev. Smith: And so that all helped to shape a lot of that because If people can grasp, like, in the civil rights movement, like the 50s, 60s, when black people, you know, couldn't even go to towns after sundown, had to be out of certain places, I grew up with that as a grandmother. Who then passed that on to her children, so we didn't go out much because we cooked at home.

Rev. Smith: Going out to eat was a big treat because we always had food at home. We hung out at home. We [00:23:00] took summer vacations to our family's houses. We went to our cousins, we went to our grandmas, that sort of thing. Because that was safe. Well, as an LGBTQ plus person, it is safe for me. As a child, I learned it is safe for me to be...

Rev. Smith: Indoors. It's safe to me to be solitary. It's safe for me to just be around those that I can be myself with because everywhere else told me to be you that that's not acceptable. And it wasn't that people would like the kids would point and say, but the adults would give me looks and Tony Morrison talks about walking into a room and does your child see your eyes light up.

Rev. Smith: I could see the disgust and the frustration in adults when I walked into a room. Because I was simply being who I am, but that was in direct conflict with the, my liberation was in direct [00:24:00] conflict with their confinement.

De'Vannon: When you say their confinement, do you mean their, their belief that your lifestyle was inherently evil? 

Rev. Smith: I would say their confinement is... The status quo respectability is rampant within the black community and it is, we are trying to be acceptable and respectful in society to be seen as equal. And that was really like a thing in the 80s as well.

Rev. Smith: Black people, I mean, I talk about this, you know, that we had on our suits and ties and black men and have a certain way of being black men. And that is the only way which we now know is toxic. But it was for, for, for me to be free to, I mean, something as simple as if you were in born in the late eighties, I mean, if you were alive in the late [00:25:00] eighties or nineties, men with earrings was like, Ooh, wait, this is a big deal.

Rev. Smith: Why would a man put an earring in? Is it because that's not respectable. And so trying to be respectable and accepted in culture by being confined, not being who you are, not, you know, I can't wear a pink shirt, because that's not mainly confinement. I have to walk a certain way or shake hands a certain way or make sure I have my voice low when I'm confinement, because that is not who you are.

Rev. Smith: That's who you are bounding yourself up to be in, to fit into. And so that's why, in, in many spaces, I, we talk about defining queer at the end of the book. It's not just about who you sleep with, although that can be a part of it, but it's about being at odds with all of the systems and everything around you and having to cultivate a space.

Rev. Smith: That's the confinement that I'm talking about, of not being who you are. And for someone to just show up and be who you are, you're like, oh, no, no, no, [00:26:00] that's offensive. 

De'Vannon: Right. Well, they've already judged you before you got there because of their preset conditioning. They told us the same thing in church about, you know, no piercings.

De'Vannon: They told us no tattoos and everything. Stuff that, that they just decided should fit into a defiling temple or whatever the case may be. Control. 

Rev. Smith: And then found a scripture to go with it. Yeah. 

De'Vannon: The one I probably hate the most was how they used to tell, tell us not to masturbate. And they took that story.

De'Vannon: From when that guy was supposed to have sex with that woman after his, her, his brother died, because the culture in the nation of Israel, like, if you had a brother, he had a girl, a wife, he died, then the brother is supposed to go have sex with her to raise up kids in their honor, and he was, like, throwing shade and being bitter for whatever reason.

De'Vannon: And I guess he didn't like his brother. I don't know. So he went in there and lied. Thanks to the woman. They didn't come inside of her. He would come on the ground. So [00:27:00] that, that is this, that is, that is the exact scripture that down here in the Pentecostal church. In Louisiana, that they were like, because he did this, you 15 year old with a hard dick and you don't know what to do with it, you cannot masturbate.

De'Vannon: We also don't want you to have sex with anyone or look at porn, which I don't look at any porn anymore. And I have a whole thing that I can say about that. We don't want you to do anything. Just pray about it and go to sleep. 

Rev. Smith: Well, that that is white supremacy doesn't have a color. And so what we've done is when things are done to you, when you oppress for so long, you begin to internalize it and will oppress yourself.

Rev. Smith: And what we've done with the black church is that we've taken the oppression in which we were born out of to resist. We've taken it on now at this point and are perpetuating it to our community, which is why I say we have to. We have to love it enough to talk some sense [00:28:00]into it. Like, come back to who you are.

Rev. Smith: I see you out here perpetuating white supremacy, which is an assault on pleasure. Anything that feels good, well, that can't be godly. Well, wait a minute. God doesn't want us to feel good. So God, God doesn't make mistakes. That's what we say. God knows all, sees all. He sits high and he looks low. But God designed these bodies that can experience pleasure, but God didn't know that.

Rev. Smith: And so when people started experiencing pleasure, God doesn't like that. No, Massa doesn't like for you to experience pleasure. Don't put that on God. That's why I'm like, we are perpetuating that. God, God, why would God make our bodies to experience pleasure? I mean, I'm just going to be very honest with you.

Rev. Smith: When someone's having an an orgasm and they scream, Oh God, it's for a reason. That is divine. That is divine. And I want to have as many divine encounters as I can have [00:29:00] in the various forms that they come in. But we try to police when we police bodies, we police pleasure. And that is what white supremacy does, because it's a form of control.

Rev. Smith: Because if you never experience pleasure, what kind of angst and frustration do you carry with you so that when you are approached? And you act out, then I can put you into the belly of the beast, which is the mass incarceration system.

De'Vannon: Right. 100%. I agree with all of that. And the way I, the way I, the way I preach this is like, like, you know, like Lucifer, you know, Satan, you know, is, is, is the the creator of oppression. Okay, any kind of bondage, you know, getting more like granularly spiritual with it, you know, you know, the devil doesn't have any options.

De'Vannon: So you don't want anybody else to have any options. So who can he enter into and make them [00:30:00] bitter enough to want to oppress somebody? And then that idea, that spirit, that, that nature of oppression is, is, is another way that I look at what you have said and it gets passed on from one person to another.

De'Vannon: Say, for instance, if somebody is in a relationship with somebody who is abusive, okay, physically, mentally, emotionally, whatever. That person who is the abuser is already bound by whatever hurts that they have that they have not taken care of the empathetic person they're in the relationship with is letting this happen to them has now come under bondage by somebody only because they were already in bondage, you know, because you can't give away what you don't have.

De'Vannon: So if you don't have freedom in you ain't about to turn anybody else lose not likely. So yeah. When I'm curious about you, you, from, from the bullying story where those, where those boys were picking on you, you had said that it caused you to create other [00:31:00] worlds. I it's like the craziest thing. I keep, I keep, I keep trying to not talk about like my ex, you know, or the ex as I try to refer to him, but I'm trying to release all aspects of ownership, ownership of connectedness or, you know, or claiming that old lifestyle. He was super introvert, got, by his analysis of things, was not able to express himself freely when he was a teenager.

De'Vannon: So till the time that I broke up with him earlier this year, you know, he was almost, he'll be 27 this year. Sometime in middle school, a girl said something negative to him. He held on to that for all that time. And he definitely created ulterior worlds in his head and things like that. And I think it's like, it's like God made a [00:32:00] microcosm of him and has taught me like so much about the nature of humanity.

De'Vannon: And it's like, even though I'm no longer with him. Like I was out at this social event last night and this person was there that resembled like his mannerisms, like when he would be out in public, he would just be on his cell phone, this person last night too into anime, you know, and all of that. But when everyone else at the table was talking, he's just sitting there on his phone, social anxiety.

De'Vannon: I can see the nervousness in his eyes. But at the same time, I could feel like him reaching out and wanting to connect, but to be too afraid to do so. And so then, back into a world that is safe, the phone, okay? Things like anime, like what this guy's shirt was wearing, and the X was big, and then that too.

De'Vannon: It's a form of escape, you know, what I'm curious about is how were you able to be hurt like I'm guessing this [00:33:00] guy that I had met last night at the social function and how the X is they turn into themselves, you know, come up with these alternate worlds. How did you do that? And then be able to, I guess, emerge from that, you know, master whatever social anxiety that you may have had and not turn.

De'Vannon: Into an abuser,

De'Vannon: because you know, on either way, 

Rev. Smith: honestly, I have never considered that, that it could have gone the other way. Like, it's never even entered my mind. Lizzie may I believe that I had from the very beginning, people who saw things in me. That I could not see in myself. I mean, I'm 44 years old, [00:34:00] and even just last week, I came to a conclusion like, Oh, that's not that. That's what that is. Because there are things about me, through the bullying or whatever, that I have just never been able to receive.

Rev. Smith: What I receive is everything about me is wrong. Everything about me is negative. When I enter a room, people are automatically turned off by me. That's what my mind tells me, based on power. Past experiences. And then people walk up and they're so kind and just intrigued. And I'm like, well, what is this about?

Rev. Smith: Cause that's counter to the narrative that I've created. But I think the people around me kept affirming and life kept affirming to me a different narrative. And so, although I would go into these other worlds, I thought I would be an actor and then I could just like play in other worlds and that sort of thing.

Rev. Smith: But what was calling me was the very present moment of service and what people needed that [00:35:00] people walk up to me like the bartender and tell me their life story. And many times it's not me, it's, it's the God in me. I can hear what I'm supposed to be saying to you, or I'll just open my mouth sometimes and then walk away from the situation like, I can't believe I said that.

Rev. Smith: And no disrespect to the people who I've been able to minister to, people will send me notes or come up to me years later and say, and it's always the same story. The person or the persons will always tell me the same story every time they see me. Although, like they've never told me, but they'll be like, I just remember that one time, I remember that one time you were talking to me and you said this thing, and they'll tell me what I said, and I smile and I nod, and the whole time I'm thinking, I have no idea what you're talking about, none, because it comes through me and not from me, so I believe that it was part of my calling that always sat me in the center and said although you want [00:36:00] to run away, I also need you to come to the center right now, and although you want to be 50 feet with everybody.

Rev. Smith: I'm also going to give you this talent here that puts you at the front. So I've never been able to just hide. I would love to blend into the gray wall in the background and sit like a flower on the wall and observe people. My life has never allowed me that option. So I can't take credit and say, well, I did all these things.

Rev. Smith: Yes, I did my work. I got a therapist and I did some reading and some journaling and I am very self aware and it's a thing that I've cultivated. But the self awareness comes from also having family and friends who I trust who can also love me enough to talk some sense into me and be like. Okay, you're, you're being a little extra here.

Rev. Smith: Could you consider, or maybe it's not that at all, but if you're in your own world by yourself. Then the only thing you're hearing is the self fulfilling [00:37:00] prophecy. So it's, it's good to have people around you who will say, yeah, okay, I know you have a short social meter, so if you only have 10 minutes, come for 10 minutes, sit by me then for like, and we'll talk and we can escape for five minutes and then let's join the conversation again.

Rev. Smith: Like that sort of thing. I've never had the luxury of just being. People have always called me back in June. So I can't take credit for that, but I will say very interesting question because I'd never thought of it that way. 

De'Vannon: Well, you know, we're here to challenge each other. What I'm hearing you say is that the challenges came to you from the different people who love you and you were open to accept it, then that, that has to be the difference because, because.

De'Vannon: You know, you know, you, you're a minister. I'm a minister. You know, God puts, puts us through experiences so we can ultimately go and share it because he know we're [00:38:00] not going to keep our mouth shut. We don't tell, we don't tell it, tell it, write it, whatever we got to do, send a kite, whatever. And so because I'm a total extrovert.

De'Vannon: Sagittarius, December 16th, twirl, glitter. I think I got a rainbow beard right now. Hello. And so, I'm all about that life. I ain't nothing inter Okay, I'm here for the rainbow nails. You better work, Oak. And so, and so it's like, I feel like God is teaching me about Introverts and people with social anxiety and things like that, that I have not struggled with before just so I can learn as I can help.

De'Vannon: I am going to do a whole show and I'm like social anxiety and perhaps it is introversion because this experiences with the X showed me how people are suffering in silence right next to right next to me. And I didn't realize it. That guy last night who I met at this, this social function, I just saw like kind of like an internal anger, you know, mixed with that [00:39:00] longing to, to relate, but not feeling like he could.

De'Vannon: When I was with the ex, I would introduce him to new friends, you know, after we left whatever social function, he'd be like, they didn't like me. And I'd be like, Oh, do you know that I missed something? Did someone say something or do something rude? He'd be like, no, I just can tell. And I was like, well, is there a chance that maybe your mind might be making that up?

De'Vannon: And so it is very, very validating to me to hear you say the stuff that, look, look at you letting God flow through you right now. Okay. You know, it's very healing and validating to me to hear you say this, that, because like, I know I'm not crazy. Like I know my friends didn't do anything to him. And so. And I don't, and I'm not mad at him or anybody who, who, who has, who is suffering like this, but I challenge people to, to do what you're saying is to get out of their head, you know, and to be open to people who are actually going to challenge you and [00:40:00] help you.

De'Vannon: The other people living in the fantasy world are not going to be able to help you. So that means the people that you play video games with, you know, unless they're friends outside of the gaming space. You know, at, you know, you got to be careful with that people you run around and have sex with so many people out there doing that aren't aren't happy with themselves and they're just using it as a means to escape if you were talking about an orgasm as being spiritual sex is super spiritual sperm is a sacred substance, you know, all of that is you know, all of that is very, very, very, very high vibrational if you use it, right?

De'Vannon: But the way it's used today, right. It is a means of escape in all kinds of things that is just corrupt. And the trick of it is, is the more people go out there and do things to patch over the wounds, be it drugs, sex, alcohol, the worse they get after every experience. Because you can't move forward away from problems doing the things, doing things like that, that patch over it because it pulls you back.

De'Vannon: They take one step forward and 10 steps [00:41:00] back. Go ahead. What I 

Rev. Smith: would offer the people listening to this and that will listen to this, It's first, you got it by right, when my therapist told me that three or four years ago, I felt like this weight was lifted off of me because I felt the guilt and shame of, yes, I knew what I was doing to self medicate, or to detach, or to disassociate because I can disassociate really easily.

Rev. Smith: But when she said, you got it by right, it was almost like someone said, There's nothing wrong with you. Like, this is what you had to do. And now, you get to make a different decision. You're no longer in that situation. You're no longer in your father's house. You're no longer in your mother's house. You're no longer, you know, in that unsafe environment of walking around the corner and having those little boys call you a punk.

Rev. Smith: You're no longer on [00:42:00] that porch where the adults are saying to you, go back over there and play with the kids. Although the kids are bullying you. So when she said you got it by right, I get it. As I said, like, you know, we will, if something's done to us, we'll begin to internalize it and do it more. And you talked about how it perpetuates.

Rev. Smith: If you think about all of the, the respectable men who were the fathers. Who were dealing with their own situations, and then being confined and bound up and trying to just be what is deemed a man, and then bringing that confinement to the women that they are with, and having children and bringing that confinement to the children in the household, and now nobody's free and everybody's bound and everybody's performing and trying to be something that they want.

Rev. Smith: naturally are not just to hold up some sort of false narrative of what respectability and black pride is when it should be [00:43:00] authenticity. And so you got it by right. But now you are in a space where being away and detached is killing you. There is nothing about the God experience, and I'm not talking about church here.

Rev. Smith: I'm saying the God experience of creation, nature, birds, flowers, human beings, nothing about the God experience speaks to isolation as a form of thriving. Everything's about the interconnectedness of God's creation, how this being needs to be there to pollinate this flower for us to have mangoes and blueberries and that nourishes our bodies and then the trees create the air and then we breathe.

Rev. Smith: Everything's about this connectivity. We thrive in connectivity. But when we isolate, it is the antithesis of love.

Rev. Smith: Love for ourselves, love for community, love for the life that we have been [00:44:00]given. Isolation. Consistent isolation, escape, disassociation is saying that this place here is not safe for me and I want to go away. But the question you have to ask or be around people, because people live on porches. Everybody who smokes weed lives on that porch.

Rev. Smith: Everybody who likes alcohol lives on that porch. We tend to go around the people who like what we like. But can we sort of shuffle this like a deck of cards? And here's something different. See something different. Try a different booth. Try a different environment where maybe you don't like clubs, but you like a lounge.

Rev. Smith: Maybe you don't like a lounge, but you just like playing cards with family and friends, but be open to the possibilities of that served you then. And it's now evil to you. So you have to be able to see at this point in time, you are no longer there. Yes, beloved. You got it right. But now things have changed.

Rev. Smith: And if you would come [00:45:00] into the present moment, what could you experience? What love? What embrace? What community? What belonging? What joy? What? Oh, God, could you experience if you're in the present moment? Because yes, that feels great. But how would it feel if you were present and not just performing? And we better 

De'Vannon: preach that that that last part of that message there rings out to.

De'Vannon: To, to, to males, to me, because... So many men approach sex like a job, you know, that's how they reference it, like I got to do my job or, you know, performing so much anxiety comes along with that, you know, if it doesn't go exactly how they think it should, or if certain things are not, you know, acting the way they want to act.

De'Vannon: But it was anxiety and stress before it was even any [00:46:00] anything was even getting started because of the preconceived notions and the conditioning on the, on the topic of sex. So, y'all was good. Reverend was mentioned earlier about, you know, pleasures being inherently good. Although the church trying to make it bad.

De'Vannon: He means pleasure. Like he's saying now, just to clarify with restraint and with mindfulness and with consciousness, you know, he doesn't mean go out there and sleep with everyone. You can get your hands on. He doesn't mean he does not mean that. Okay. Because, you know, some people be like, oh, you know, the reverend said pleasure is a good.

De'Vannon: So I'm going to go out there and be pleasurable. You know, no, that's not what he means. He means not to demonize yourself for having the nerve to enjoy. masturbating or having a positive sexual experience with someone who you care about. He's saying that is okay. He is not saying go get on Grindr or go get on Tinder and, and just line you up a whole bunch of people to be sleeping with and have them in random rotation.

De'Vannon: That's not what he's saying. 

Rev. Smith: [00:47:00] I will say, I'll say to people I do not,

Rev. Smith: I do not sit here and proclaim everyone go out and sin. And I want to be clear that I'm using the word sin, meaning the lack or absence of love. God is love. Anything you do outside of love is sinful. That is what the word says. And so if you are out here just going and doing whatever for pleasure and there is no present consciousness of love, God with you and God in you.

Rev. Smith: Then you are operating outside of that. And I am not here to say, yes, go out there and do all the things outside of love and outside of the government, but to be present to who you are, in who you are, and to know that there is pleasures that can be experienced in God, in [00:48:00] presence. And love. That's what I'm saying.

Rev. Smith: I don't want, I don't want anyone to walk away from here and be like, he said this and then you go get an STI, you go, but the good reference that I should be experiencing. In love. Do all things as doing it unto 

De'Vannon: God. Because in Jesus's presence is fullness of joy, and in his right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

De'Vannon: Forevermore. There is such a thing as true pleasure, and then there's the lie that the devil can sell you on. So, one of the, we're getting ready to wrap this up, I'm gonna say one more thing, and then I'm gonna kick it back to you before we get into our dad jokes. I've been just trying to analyze And I thought about this last night when I was at this, this social function, I was talking and then that, that young guy was at our table and I'm sitting there and looking at him like, okay, his, his vibration, his energy reminds me so much of the ex, like, what is God trying to tell me here?

De'Vannon: [00:49:00] Okay. And so I'm going to, I've been just trying to think, cause he was in his twenties, you know, the ex in his twenties, I don't know what your experience is, but I have met so many people in their twenties. That seems so fucking miserable and so fucking depressed and so look, look, I was trying not to cuss during this episode.

De'Vannon: Y'all. I got the good Reverend on and I authenticity. I know. I know. But I, I'm off. I'm authentic. Both ways. I like to demonstrate flexibility. I can cuss. I can't, I, I just, I just felt like, I just felt like I didn't wanna do it. I'm not, but I'm, I'm, I'm flexible. Like I can date a girl, I can date a guy. I'm authentic either way.

De'Vannon: But but I just wanted to, I just wanted to know, do a little bit different, you know, but I'm so passionate about this, so Very well. Because it seems like, you know, from your experience, you know, you were, you had negative things done to you at a very conditionable, impressionable age. [00:50:00] You did not internalize the negativity.

De'Vannon: You, you let it go. You had that support group or the people have had a support group and they rejected that support group. There's many factors there, but 1 thing I know that, that, that the people that this that this younger generation didn't have is like the God that the God God isn't there. And so I'm thinking that that made a huge difference.

De'Vannon: I'm trying hard to figure this out. It's like they have all the, oh, they have so many options, you know, they can come and go as they please. They have all the toys, all the games, they're having all the sex. They're doing all the things they want to do. And yet, it's very difficult for me to find somebody in that age range that's like overflowing with joy.

De'Vannon: They know who they are. They're on a good path to finding it out. What do you think is the problem? You know, when I think about it, I think about Madonna's song, Love Perfusion, when she was saying there's too many options, there's [00:51:00] real isolation, and there's no consolation. Very underrated song. But she's talking about some major issues.

De'Vannon: It seems like the more people can do, the worse they get. So 

Rev. Smith: People call it grandma, amema, whatever, but I use the term we used in Texas growing up, which is big mama. Andre Leon Talley said once that there's a famine of beauty this season for the, for the passion shows. There's a famine of Big Mamas.

Rev. Smith: And this is not a indictment on anyone who's a grandmother, but Big Mamas in the black community had. They were separate. It was like you could be a grandma, but moving to the title of like Big Mama or something was almost like a crowning moment because they look different. They [00:52:00] talk different, they behave different, and they could say some really harsh things sometimes, but you didn't feel like you were being attacked.

Rev. Smith: And everyone had a level of respect for, almost like the Queen of England, had a level of respect for the Big Mamas in the community. Today, we see Big Mama who is. 45 and not necessarily in her 60s 80s. And that Big Momma is. The stories we create are more about look how good she looks for a grandma and not about what is her wisdom.

Rev. Smith: How does she provide for her community? Because the grandmas were like the queens. Like they, they nurtured, they cooked for, they babysat, they imparted their wisdom, they gave direction to our community. And we often found those in these spiritual places. [00:53:00] And so now we have a generation. That performs pseudo healing and again, this is not an indictment.

Rev. Smith: It's because we don't we're missing that link and the pseudo healings that I see is everyone says, Oh, I'm spiritual, not religious. And I understand that. That's the language you have, but you are spirit. So when you talk about healing, how do you heal your spirit? Without being connected to a greater spirit, whatever you want to call that, but you believe that lighting an incident or lighting a candle are carrying some crystals.

Rev. Smith: Nothing is inherently wrong with that. Those are tools that can connect you to that which is greater than you. That can be, you can look down and see the ribbon tied on your arm and it will remind you of your connection to that which is greater than you. You can have the crystals and it will remind you about the energy that you have [00:54:00] around you that is coming from the source.

Rev. Smith: But when you solely seek to find your healing, In a solitary, tangible thing, but your healing is an intangible thing that is connected to your spirit, then you have this sort of pseudo healing. And the reason I know it's pseudo is because a lot of people are, as you said, are walking around her angry, miserable, depressed.

Rev. Smith: If you have been healed, you and you naturally heal other people. There are some sign to your healing and joy is what the fruits of the spirit is what the Bible calls it. Where is your joy? Where is it if you are healed? So I would say this generation is missing. They have all the tools that will aid them in their healing, but they don't have the ultimate connection to that, which is greater than them.

Rev. Smith: And that doesn't come from just sitting [00:55:00] sometimes and meditating. Sometimes you can find connection there, but your healing will come, we overcome by our testimony, by the words of our testimony, where does the conversation happen? That's why people go to therapists because they are now seeking to have some sort of dialogue.

Rev. Smith: And my faith and my big mama told me, because those are great tools, and I use those tools, and just a little talk with Jesus. So if you see me sometimes just sitting here,

Rev. Smith: I'm not going crazy. Sometimes I just have a little talk with Jesus as well, because there's a connection that once you establish a connection with that, which is greater than you, healing can begin to come in. It's not an overnight process. You [00:56:00] don't show up at a church or a mosque or a synagogue, or even at a Someone's kitchen table to have a Bible study and develop a connection.

Rev. Smith: And next day you healed and you don't do things no more. And you don't, it's a process, it's a relationship. And once you learn how to have that relationship, the other relationships would begin to fall in line. 

De'Vannon: A hundred percent. And I do not, I don't believe like all the answers are within us that that mindset preaches.

De'Vannon: A disassociation from God. I know it's cute and it sounds great and it's super popular. We have some answers in us, but just like the crystals and the gemstones, which you have to have faith, even to believe that a quartz crystal is going to cleanse your atmosphere. You know, you can't really just prove that.

De'Vannon: So if you can have faith in the crystal, come on, we can take it up a notch and go directly to the source. So what Carmen and I are trying to tell you, boo, is that if you lean on [00:57:00] God, you will have a greater source of power. There is nothing weak. About being dependent on God. You can look at him like a big brother, a big parent, you know, you want to have a stronger person in your corner.

De'Vannon: So just consider what we've said. I hope that people begin to consider their spirituality seriously. What you're saying is right. Because like the ex, his friends, this person last night, probably this person last night, you try to talk to them about God, they look at you like you got three heads on your shoulders.

De'Vannon: You try to talk to their parents about God. It's the same thing. And so people are having kids, they're not teaching them anything about spirituality. They're giving them everything that they want and then sending them out into the world. And so we have this problem, you know, this insecurity and validation.

De'Vannon: Like, like the Reverend said, you're not going to find it in anything tangible. So no matter how much sex you have, no matter how much alcohol you drink, no matter how much drugs you do, how many trips you take, how much you overwork yourself and stay at the office late, until you get on them rusty kneecaps, as my grandmother used to [00:58:00] say, you can call on Jesus.

De'Vannon: You are not going to actually be able to have true joy. You're just going to have fake temporary joy and you're going to be just as empty and you're going to have to go run and do those same things again. And so, thank you for staying over time. With us, do you have, before we get into the dad jokes, do you have any, like, final words you want to give to the people?

De'Vannon: Of course, y'all's website is holyqueerbook. com. I'll let some of them go in the showy notes as they always do. And then, yeah, anything you'd like to say before I ask my 

Rev. Smith: jokes? Well, I just like to leave with everyone what I leave with every group or person that I talk to. And that is embrace the discomfort of doing something, trying something, being someone.

Rev. Smith: New or different. Embrace it. It's a process. Just like trying a different food. I don't know. I don't like my mom always said that was bad, but [00:59:00] try to embrace the discomfort. Let the disruption. Be the catalyst for your liberation

De'Vannon: from one introvert to all the other introverts. What he just said. I mean, there's no add anything to that as an extrovert. I can't even speak on that. I'm just going to let that be what it is. And okay, so dad joke number 1, what did the shovel say to the sand?

De'Vannon: I don't know. I really dig you. 

Rev. Smith: Okay, that was obvious,

De'Vannon: right? Dad joke number two. Why did the elephant quit his job?

De'Vannon: He 

Rev. Smith: wanted to pack his trunk. 

De'Vannon: I don't know. You know, [01:00:00] that's clever. That's pretty clever. Actually, it's because he was working for peanuts. 

Rev. Smith: Ah, I like that one. Yes. He 

De'Vannon: couldn't afford shit. Let me see here. Inflation. Oh lord, inflation. Those peanuts used to go a long way back in 1952. 

Rev. Smith: 99 cent pack is now 1.

Rev. Smith: 19. 

De'Vannon: Okay. Ah, hell nah. Shit, I'm the most pissed off about my, like my dozen motherfucking Krispy Kreme donuts not 4. 25 anymore. You got to damn near take out a loan to go get my. Krispy 

Rev. Smith: Kreme. We're gonna be making our own donuts in a minute. 

De'Vannon: Okay, last one. Why was the Incredible Hulk? So good at gardening because he had a green thumb.

De'Vannon: I got it right. I 

Rev. Smith: got one.

De'Vannon: Absolutely. So, [01:01:00] yo, we cover heavy subject material on this podcast. But, you know, we really got to laugh. You can't laugh at a good dad joke. You really need Jesus and some psychotherapy, you know, so just laugh a little, little, live a little go on Google and just Google some dad jokes if you feel yourself getting down and lonely.

De'Vannon: And so. This has been a Reverend Carmen Michael Smith. What a beautiful name. That sounds like the name of an archangel. Just Carmen Michael Smith flying in the same, well, Michael was an 

Rev. Smith: angel, but I, I don't know if I'm necessarily an angel 

De'Vannon: in the resurrection, we shall be as unto the angels. So we might, Sean book Psycho.

De'Vannon: So we might as well start calling ourselves that now. And so he's on, we find him on LinkedIn, Instagram holy queer book.com. He's the author of the book, holy Queer, the Coming Out of Christ. Y'all come into the light and be happy, you know, let's turn away from the evil and the anger and the, and change our ways before it's too late, because you're [01:02:00] not going to always have a chance to do that.

De'Vannon: And you don't know if you're going to live to get old, so be careful with how you're playing with your life. Thank you for coming on the show, Harmon. Thank you for having me.

De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the sex, drugs, and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at sex, drugs, and Jesus. com, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Devannon at sexdrugsandjesus.

De'Vannon: com and on Twitter and Facebook as well. My name is Devannon and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is going to be all right.

De'Vannon: [01:03:00]