Episode #145: Kicking Crystal Meth As An Atheist, White Privilege & Mental Health Treatment For Kids, With Mary Beth O'Connor, Author of "From Junkie To Judge"

INTRODUCTION:

Mary Beth's award-winning memoir, From Junkie to Judge: One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction, is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Bamm, Indie Bound, and other sites, and at your local bookstore.  She also has placed essays in publications such as The Wall Street Journal, the Los Angeles Times, and Recovery Today. 

Beginning with alcohol at age 12, she spent several years abusing various drugs. She found methamphetamine at 16 and started shooting up at 17. Mary Beth struggled with meth until she was 32 years old.

By incorporating ideas from multiple sources to build a secular (not 12-step or faith based) recovery plan that works for her, Mary Beth has been sober since 1994. She used similar techniques to address the trauma and related anxiety as well.

Mary Beth is a board member for LifeRing Secular Recovery and She Recovers Foundation.  She speaks on behalf of these organizations, about multiple paths to recovery, and about all topics related to substance use disorder and recovery. She also speaks about sexual abuse and rape, child abuse, domestic violence, PTSD, anxiety, and recovering from these as well.

INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):

·      Progression From Drug Addiction As An Atheist

·      White Privilege 

·      The Other Side Of The 12-Step Movement

·      Proliferation Of Childhood Sexual Trauma 

·      Mental Health Treatment For Kids

·      Abusers In The Household/Family

·      Mercy From The Judge

·      Racial Disparity In Drug Laws

·      Heroic Hearts Project

·      MOM JOKES!!!

CONNECT WITH MARY BETH O’CONNOR:

 Website: https://junkietojudge.com

From Junkie To Judge On Amazon: https://shorturl.at/gvLS3

L.A. Times Op-Ed: https://shorturl.at/cuKU1

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/marybeth.holuboconnor

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-beth-o-connor-8aaa4b121/

X: https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2FMaryBethO_

CONNECT WITH DE’VANNON SERÁPHINO:

 Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.com

Website: https://www.DownUnderApparel.com  

TikTok: https://shorturl.at/nqyJ4

YouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCM

Facebook: https://shorturl.at/gqrAV

Instagram: https://shorturl.at/gwAP1

X: https://shorturl.at/oyLZ4

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannon

Pinterest: https://shorturl.at/bqB26

Transcript

Episode #145: Kicking Crystal Meth As An Atheist, White Privilege & Mental Health Treatment For Kids, With Mary Beth O'Connor, Author of "From Junkie To Judge"

Mary Beth O'Connor

De'Vannon Seráphino: [00:00:00] Mary Beth O'Connor is the author of the award winning memoir, From Junkie to Judge, One Woman's Triumph Over Trauma and Addiction. In this episode, Mary Beth gives us insight into her journey from crystal meth addiction to becoming an administrative law judge. We talk about white privilege, racial disparity in drug laws, and so much more y'all. 

Mary Beth O'Connor: I really wanted to own that I shot meth and I did it like for, you know, a large chunk of 15 years.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so, because as you say, when I see people shooting meth on in the media. They're really presented as like, you know, they're living in a house with a lot of garbage around and they, you know, it's, they're presented almost like they're animals in a zoo 

Mary Beth O'Connor: Right. Because if we could catch the kids earlier and, and help them heal and deal with their pain, then they may not ever get to the point of picking up the substances or using them in in an unhealthy [00:01:00] way. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Let's do this, my people.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Hello, all of my fabulous, fabulous children out there, and welcome back to the Sex, Drugs, and Jesus podcast. I have with me today, my good old friend, Mary Beth O'Connor, coming to us from the Bay area. And now she is, she wrote a book called From Junkie to Judge, and that title just like, just like grabs my heart in so many different ways.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Mary Beth, how are you today? I'm doing 

Mary Beth O'Connor: great. Looking forward to talking 

De'Vannon Seráphino: with you. Okay, absolutely. And y'all on this episode, we're going to be talking about how Mary Beth overcame her methamphetamine addiction, became a judge. She says in her own words that she beat addiction without God. We'll talk about her book.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We'll talk about, Some of this [00:02:00] training that she does for lawyers and judges and and this op ed that she wrote in the L. A. Times about how she felt, about her take on white privilege and things like that, which I think will be most titillating and interesting. So, just a little bit about her background.

De'Vannon Seráphino: She's about six years into recovery still? 

Mary Beth O'Connor: No, I just had 30 years of sobriety in January. Six years is when I went to law school. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Okay. So at six years is when you, okay. So she went to law school at Berkeley Law. She's worked at a large firm in Silicon Valley. Then she litigated class action lawsuits for the federal government.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I love me a good class action lawsuit. And then in 2014, Marybeth was appointed a federal administrative law judge from which she retired in 2020. She first shot up methamphetamine when she was 17. And this goes on to read as an abused a child seeking relief from [00:03:00] trauma and stress. She turned to alcohol at age 12 and had used numerous drugs to excess before sticking that needle in her arm.

De'Vannon Seráphino: In 1979 at age 18, she was arrested for possession of methamphetamines and syringes. Hmm. Can you talk to me about just hearing this background here from you, you were talking about from age 12, one of the chapter titles in your book was called molestations. And so I'm probably, there was things that went on before age 12.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so we, you've been in the law school, hearing this history of yours, you're the person who lived this, how does it make you feel just hearing this brief synopsis? 

Mary Beth O'Connor: Well, I mean, part of the way the book came about is because when I became a judge, you know, at I'm size 20 years sober in 2014, but it really made me reflect back.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Like, how did I go from an abused? I mean, I was physically abused, sexually abused, [00:04:00] emotionally abused in multiple ways. Parents, you know, strangers. And then I, I was a full blown addict in high school. I did not get sober. So I was 32 and yet I became a judge. And so it was sort of a time to think about how did I do this?

Mary Beth O'Connor: How did I manage to pull out of it? And, and have a happy and productive life. And that's part of why I talk about it because I want to sort of help reduce stigma, but also be a reassurance that if you're hurt. You yourself or your loved one is in a really horrible place with substance use disorder.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It doesn't mean it's too late. It doesn't mean there's not a way out because I found it at 32, not as young as I wish, but you know, I found the path forward and I, you know, I have a happy and joyful life at this point. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Well, cheers to a happy and joyful, joyful life. And y'all Mary Beth, she, she does speaking engagement.

De'Vannon Seráphino: She sits on the board for a few different. Organizations that have to do with recovery as well. [00:05:00] And so she's not just sitting on her laurels. She got, she got her victory. Now she wants to help other people get it too. And that's what the, you know, the sex drugs and Jesus on my work is all about. We know Mary Beth and I didn't take our happy endings and go run off quietly into rainbows and daisy fields.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You know, we're yet in the trenches and we visit those rainbows and daisy fields regularly, but we just don't stay there because we like y'all to come join us too. So I'm going to read some of these chapter titles from the book because I have a thing about chapter titles, because you know, I just feel like a chapter title can just be so fun, you know, and so creative and some of them say like my shot, meaning like her, her drugs.

De'Vannon Seráphino: First kidnapping. Then there's like another kidnapping title too, that happens down the road. Protecting the siblings, as I stated earlier, molestations. Alcohol is the [00:06:00] chapter title, pot, sex, pills, acid, Gina, Cindy, promiscuity, speed again, you know, down the corporate ladder. And then there was this one called Atheist Challenges. Now you mentioned that you had beat addiction without God. I also saw, like, Narcotics Anonymous make an appearance, you know, briefly.

De'Vannon Seráphino: How did you beat your addiction without God? So when I 

Mary Beth O'Connor: went into rehab, and it was 93 when I went in, they swore to me, I mean, adamantly and vehemently that the only way to recover was the 12 step way and 12 steps, of course, is Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, all of the anonymous, and that was a problem because I was an atheist, but also I didn't like other aspects of the 12 step program.

Mary Beth O'Connor: You're supposed to turn over your will in your life. Oh, I wasn't going to do that. You have to agree you're [00:07:00] powerless. I didn't agree with that. There's a real focus on defects, which I really didn't think was a great idea. But they said, this is it, right? That's all there is. And so at first I, I, I was first of all shocked, like, okay, this is medical treatment.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And you're telling me I have to do something with faith that I can't do. But I believe them. And so I really, I mean, I read all of the AA big book. I read all of the NA texts. I looked for the parts I could use. And there were some ideas that I found helpful, like one day at a time is a sort of a 12 step mantra.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I found that useful. I looked at the powerless step again, and I thought, well, What I could agree is that I am powerless to moderate, like there's no moderating for me, but it still was just a bad fit. And so when I got home and I'm going to emphasize for the younger people, it's 94 and there's no Google.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Okay. But I thought, Is it really true that there's no other option besides 12 steps? And so I went to the [00:08:00] library and I did the research and it wasn't true in 1994 and it's much less true today. And so there are other approaches secular options, or really it's not so much the lack of faith because.

Mary Beth O'Connor: A lot of religious people do the other options. It's really a the biggest difference is that it's about self empowerment versus viewing yourself as powerless or turning over your will in your life. And so what I did was I went to the other programs. I found women for sobriety, which still exists today.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I found rational recovery, which today is mostly smart recovery. I found secular organization for sobriety, which today is really life ring secular recovery. And those programs focus on on building up yourself on building up your competence and on you as the decision maker in your recovery, but also, for example, in life ring, we talk about the individual nature of a recovery plan that what works for me may not work for you and vice [00:09:00] versa.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so it's really up to us to To hopefully to listen, to absorb the ideas, to think about these suggestions, but to really make decisions for our own recovery. And that's what I did. I built what today would be called a personal plan or Patrick plan. And I, as I said, I just had 30 years of, of continuous sobriety.

Mary Beth O'Connor: So I think it was a good option for me.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Gosh, I'm happy you found your way and I'm happy that you didn't give up and let. The brokenness of the anonymous movement deter you or be a, I'm going to say this with love, you know, or, or be, be a fool and keep going back into those treatments, even though there, there are really a lot of results that they don't have a high success rate.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And, I tried Narconics Anonymous, Crystal Meth Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, you know, all the [00:10:00] different anonymous es es, you know, movements. I was in Sex Addicts Anonymous. I, you know, and I agree, there was some useful things in all of them, but not enough to really fix or cure anything. I did not like how you said, like the beating up of people.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's a, they were all very fear based to me. You know, it was like, if you dare do anything, relapse or whatever, then you'll lose everything in the world you've worked for. And everything you do have is because of this recovery. It's almost like it, Loki made a god out of the Twelve Steps without saying that it made a god out of the Twelve Steps.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And then it turned it into, like, the Church of the Twelve Steps without saying that. Because people who are deep into those recovery, those Twelve Step programs, it's like every, everywhere they go and anything they say, it's the Twelve Steps this. Like, they don't even have a conversation, some of them, [00:11:00] without mentioning the Twelve Steps.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I'm all like, it's very cult like. After a while, which is very churchy, like, in the same breath. It's interesting, you know, different paths for different people. I'm happy that you saw it. Like, it really, really breaks my heart when people are like, say, their 10th time in rehab trying the 12 steps. And I'm all like, baby, it's not working for you.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We need to It's been different. Try something 

Mary Beth O'Connor: else. Try something else. You know, I mean, I'll say this, look, 12 steps for, you know, a proportion of people like it and they do well, but the problem is when 12 step people claim it's the only way or a better way, neither of which is true. The other thing I'll say is that it's not even like there's a clear religion versus non religious division because there's.

Mary Beth O'Connor: There are atheists and agnostics that make 12 steps work, but there are a lot of faith based people that do the other programs because they they [00:12:00] like the self empowerment approach better, or they don't like the sponsor side because sponsorship has pros and cons. And and so it's really about. For me, it's about letting people know that of the choices so they can find the right fit, because if you find the right fit, you're going to have a better chance of success.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Don't try to force yourself into the wrong box. You're not going to have as good of odds then. And as you say, if you tried something and it didn't work, maybe try something else or add something else in. It, it's, it should be about, It's about looking at all the ideas and seeing what's going to be best for you.

Mary Beth O'Connor: But yeah, the animacy that, look, I don't say that my way is going to work for everyone either. My way will work for some people and it won't work for others. It's really about thinking about who you are and what techniques you find most useful. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Absolutely. So I want to talk about the book cover because I also have a thing, besides chapter titles, book covers as well.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So again, the title is From Junkie to Judgement. [00:13:00] Show this, you know, as I'm, as I'm editing it, so I'll describe it. I'm gonna put a picture of this up for the YouTube channel. So, I love the colors black, red, and white. Spiritually speaking, that combination is very potent with, like, blocking and banishing and, like, reversing negative energy.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Ah! When used a certain way. And, When I first started my, my lingerie store down under apparel, our original color scheme was also red, black and white back in the day. When it was still down under men's wear, but now we have men's, women and non binary clothing. So from junkie to judge, one woman's triumph over trauma and addiction, Mary Beth O'Connor.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It sounds like one night engagement in New York City, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. So in Junkie, she has that word, it looks like it's in like cracker, cocaine, or maybe like Yes, it's 

Mary Beth O'Connor: white powder, yes, yes, 

De'Vannon Seráphino: white powder, yeah. And then in for the Judge, she has those Judge [00:14:00]Judy classic pearl necklace you know, pearls going on.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Is there anything you'd like to tell us about your inspiration for this? I can see the transition from the powder to the pearl necklace, but maybe there's something here you'd like to say. 

Mary Beth O'Connor: Well, I was saying, so my idea when I, you know, to the publisher and I told them, I am not a graphic artist, right? But my idea was maybe to have a syringe and a gavel.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And they thought, well, that's sort of like a pulp, you know, Hope magazine or something. And so their graphic artist came up with the powder and the pearls and I loved it. I just think it's more sophisticated. It's a little more nuanced, but it really does show the contrast and the color scheme. They offered me many different color schemes.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And this is the one that we landed on. So if you publish a book with a publisher, you will find that picking a cover is a process. There are a lot of people who have opinions. But I was, I'm really happy with the end result. And so I'm, I'm [00:15:00] really comfortable with it. I, I do, I do like what she, what the graphic artist did is much better than my simple little idea about a a gavel and a 

De'Vannon Seráphino: needle.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I like where you were going with the syringe. So my book on the cover of the sex sex, drugs and Jesus memoir that I wrote, I have a crow. Holding a syringe to standing on top of a skull, and I have all kinds of imagery in there and things like that. And every little thing is super intentional and everything is a whole story.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I was inspired by, like, say, Madonna, whoever she produces any kind of show album cover, anything like that. Every little thing. Detail and every song and every video carries like its own storyline to it, and I wanted my work to be that way, but I, 

Mary Beth O'Connor: and I will say for me, the subtitle was that kind of a conversation.

Mary Beth O'Connor: My original subtitle in my draft when I was looking for a publisher was recovery without God, but the publisher [00:16:00] thought that the. One woman's triumph over trauma and addiction and they, they're right. It captures the whole book better because my, my book does really start with why I picked up alcohol at 12, why I was shooting meth at 17.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I, I really, I felt like a lot of recovery memoirs sort of jump into the crazy drug stories, but there's no context. And the reality is that because I had extensive long term living in an abusive household, had multiple other assaults. My odds of developing a substance use disorder were much higher than the general population, probably five to 10 times as high because of the number and frequency of the traumas.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so I really wanted to show that like. You know, to try to help people understand why did it make sense to me to use drugs at that level? And the reality is, in the beginning, they seem to work. That's why you keep going. They turn into a major problem. But in the beginning, there's a reason for it, and it seems to work.[00:17:00]

Mary Beth O'Connor: And then 30 percent of the book is actually recovery, right? I wanted to show how I built a, a, a, a non 12 step recovery plan, but also the trauma recovery because the reality is I wouldn't be living a happy and joyful life if I hadn't done a lot of hard work on my trauma as well. I mean, it took me longer.

Mary Beth O'Connor: to get my PTSD and anxiety under control than it took to get my substances under control. And that's just common. I mean, a lot of women and even a significant percentage of men walk in the rooms with those kinds of issues. And they have to, if you're going to live your best life, you really have to address both sides, not just the substances, but the underneath reason that that drove you to the substances in the first place.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, and that's another reason why people who are like on their 10th or however many trip to either rehab or a 12 step thing still have the same issue. Not only is the program like, not really as functional as it's claiming to be, [00:18:00] but the people who are going aren't telling themselves the truth. You know, the last time, you know, about the real reasons that they're there, it's not actually for the rush of the drug or even for the community that can come along with hanging out in drug houses or new people who get high that that's the sort of stuff you stay for, but what you're numbing are the molestations, the abuse and you got to tell yourself, the truth about that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: The last time I was in the mental hospital up here at the Bronx Veterans Affairs. Hospital, one of the social workers, he'd been there 30 years, about the time you got sober, he was starting his work, his career here at the VA, and he was like 50 percent of the males who come through the psych ward have suffered from some sort of sexual abuse in their youth.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And most of them identify straight. Okay. And, and he was, he said that unequivocally, you know, just like flatly period, you know, you know, there's all kinds of [00:19:00]sexual molestation that have happened to people. And this is a huge reason why we have the drug problem we have, you know, in this. country. Yeah, the one thing I'll 

Mary Beth O'Connor: add to that is sometimes people ask me what's the number one thing we could do to reduce the substance use disorder rate in America. And America does have one of the highest addiction rates in the world. I mean, it's very high. And what I say to that is is mental health treatment for kids.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Right. Because if we could catch the kids earlier and, and help them heal and deal with their pain, then they may not ever get to the point of picking up the substances or using them in in an unhealthy way. And so I agree that that is at the core of a lot of it. The other thing is that a lot of us in our.

Mary Beth O'Connor: in the middle of our addiction, new traumas happen, right? I mean, you can hang out with crazy people and bad things happen sometimes. And so even if you don't start out with trauma, living that in that [00:20:00] world can create new traumas. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I am all for kids being enrolled in mental health as soon as they can talk, however, right?

De'Vannon Seráphino: However, the thing is, this will require parents actually having their shit together. Enough to see that that's going to be beneficial. And why the juxtaposition is that just by virtue of a parent bringing their child to a mental health person is like testifying against the parent if that parent has not done their shadow work and worked on their own issues.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So that's going to make that parent feel. Bad. And, and, you know, some, like, in some type of bad way, because parents just, just because they had a kid don't mean they actually ever fix their own issues themselves. And so typically you cannot give away what you don't have. And so, and this is why you have broken people raising broken people.

De'Vannon Seráphino: You [00:21:00]

Mary Beth O'Connor: already agree with that also that if it's the abuser that's in the household, which, you know, most abusers are in the household, right? They may not get help. But the other thing is that there also isn't equal access to treatment, right? Whether it's mental health treatment, or whether it's physical therapy.

Mary Beth O'Connor: substance use disorder. There are parents out there who want to get help for their kids. And if they don't have insurance or they don't live in a community that offers low cost or free treatment, they can't always even access it. So right now we don't even have treatment available for everyone who's looking for it.

Mary Beth O'Connor: But you are right, there isn't another group that even if it was available, there would be obstacles within their family for them to be treated. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: And I just want to add it's usually going to be like the straight people in your family molesting your kids. That's a statistical fact. I've been in trainings and things like that when I used to volunteer with kids and when they would put the pictures of the local registered sex offenders.

De'Vannon Seráphino: One half would be women, and then the other half would be, like, [00:22:00]predominantly males who identify as straight. There wouldn't be any queer people, you know, in the, in the debriefings that I sat in with me as a kid. It was a straight uncle who molested me. You know, I've, I've had people on my show and talk to people.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's like the male babysitter, or it's the stepdad who mom went and got hitched to after the abusive, You know, actual paternal dad was kicked out of the picture. Then she, the mom stayed broken and went and got another abusive person. So now he's molesting the daughter or the son whenever the mom's at work.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So stop trying to blame the gays for everything, honey. You know, while you were looking at us, it was the straight people going in there and having sex with their children. You fool, you shouldn't have done that. It's 

Mary Beth O'Connor: true. I mean, you know, the majority, you know, the larger group is, is heterosexual. And so by even just by doing the math, most most child abuse, physical or [00:23:00]sexual is going to be heterosexual.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And you're right for me, it was my stepfather was my first sexual abuser. And that's common. The other thing is, it's often within the family or friend unit, and there's a lot of fear about strangers. And it's not that you shouldn't be, you know, how to protect yourself reasonably from strangers. But the reality is it's usually people, you know?

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, because the people that we know, yeah, I had Dr. Lisa Smith on my show from down in Florida. She was explaining to me how people who we know, they like to get in close to people when trust and they do a thing called grooming of the parents. to get you comfortable enough for you to let your guard down before they swoop in to take advantage of your child when you're not looking.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Yeah, that was a jaw on the floor moment for me because that very thing happened to me when I was a teenager and was molested again by like, you know, like this [00:24:00]guy at church. And so one of the things that I read when I was researching, you said, you know, my, my drug addiction story has been a humbling series of breaks and granting me second and third chances.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I wanted to take just like a moment of silence to give gratitude for my part, you know, to God and the Holy Trinity first. And I mean that in the non churchiest of ways. I don't do organized religion. I don't do church. But I'm super, super, like, into the Trinity. But when I stood before judges who, when the prosecutor wanted to send me up the river and throw the book at me, because a lot of them tend to be very judgmental, but not for rehabilitative purposes, they just hate people and their job gives them a way to judge others in an, in like a very mean way.

De'Vannon Seráphino: But the judge looked at me when I had my drug charges and everything and saw like this broken kid who had [00:25:00] no priors. You know, when I was reading that in your story, you know, something clearly happened to make us suddenly start to break bad. And the judge saw this and gave me like probation. In your case, it was, you know, ordered to be wiped away from your record after you, you know, did everything that you were supposed to do.

De'Vannon Seráphino: The prosecutor in my case was like the, was like the devil going, you know, burn them at the stake. And the judge was like, no, we're going to work with this kid because this, this is deeper than just somebody who wants to go out there and just. Act the fool and cut up from the outside. It looks like we're having so much fun with all of these drugs, but it's just not the case.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And so I wanted to just give a, give gratitude to the judges out there and the people who have to do with law enforcement, who can see us really, really see that we need help and not to be put back in jail or not to be not that we need like help, help. 

Mary Beth O'Connor: That's [00:26:00] right. I mean, I mean, look, I support decriminalization of all personal use and I do it for a number of reasons.

Mary Beth O'Connor: One of them is that the government recognizes that substance use disorder is a medical condition and yet we throw people in jail for it. Well, that's a contradiction. Okay. On another is that it costs three to four times as much to jail a person than to treat them. And so even if you just care about how your tax dollars are being used, putting people in jail for possession is actually going to be much more expensive.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And it also doesn't have as good a result as giving people evidence based treatment. But the other problem is the vast racial disparity in the way the drug laws are enforced. And so a person of color is. you know, three to four times as likely to have charges. And to get, if they are stopped, they're much more likely to get searched.

Mary Beth O'Connor: If they're searched and there's drugs, they're more likely to get charged. If the charges tend to be higher and the [00:27:00] sentences tend to be longer. So we don't even fairly enforce the drug laws that we have for the same behavior. People of color are penalized at a lot higher. And so that was one of the things I talked about.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I mean, the last 10 years that I used from 22 to 32, I had meth on me every day. And I was stopped multiple times by the police and I was never searched, you know, and I knew, I knew it was because I was a middle class white woman driving in my neighborhood, you know, and so for all of those reasons, I know I support, you know, decriminalization for personal use.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I think we need to use those dollars to give people treatment and also supports when they get out of treatment, right? We sort of wrap around how to help them get a job, deal with their other health issues, get them into, you know, other mental health treatment and all those things. And our money will be a lot better spent and a lot more effectively spent.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Right. One thing I love about your story is that like the way you, like, like you're saying the way you look and present is not like the way your typical methamphetamine user is often portrayed in [00:28:00] documentaries and movies and things like that. And it's something that, from a spiritual perspective that I think, you know, Weakens people, and I think God set certain factions into place to, to present people the opportunity to sow bad karma for themselves or good karma in the future.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Because, like, say here in New York, crackheads, like, everywhere. Okay, fine, but I see some people be really judgy. You know, of them because of, I mean, the obvious ones who are like scratching around for crumbs on the ground and badgering you for money, but I'm more like, as a drug dealer, though, I used to sell, you know, these sort of things to people who made well into six figures, if not more, you know, who had all their teeth in place and everything like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And you could not tell, you know, the difference. And So then, so then I'm like, are people being mean because [00:29:00] of the way these people look? Is it because of the drugs? Because, because you, you you, you drive the point home that it's not in the look. It's not in where you're from. These drugs don't discriminate.

De'Vannon Seráphino: They don't give a damn about somebody's net, you know, physical net worth, their racial background, or anything like that. You know, I think that your story reminds people that it can affect anyone and nobody's out of reach of being harmed by the drugs either. Right. I 

Mary Beth O'Connor: mean, I really wanted to own that I shot meth and I did it like for, you know, a large chunk of 15 years.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so, because as you say, when I see people shooting meth on in the media. They're really presented as like, you know, they're living in a house with a lot of garbage around and they, you know, it's, they're presented almost like they're animals in a zoo, not like they're real people. Like, like why would you present it as if we can't empathize with them or that they're beyond our understanding.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so I really wanted to say out loud that I shot meth not [00:30:00] once, but many, many, many times. I could show you the track marks on my arms if you want to see them. And yet. Despite that, you know, in recovery, my life is very different. And, and to me that says, therefore we should be helping the people that you're looking down upon, you know, their life would be different too, if we can find a way to get them the help they need.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I just wanted it to be, to try to help destigmatize people that are really heavily judged as you were talking 

De'Vannon Seráphino: about. Absolutely. I concur. I'm going to circle back to how some of the statistics about how you were talking about. Some of the racists that are persecuted because I wanted to give a little bit of emphasis to the Latino population, which is very near and dear to my heart.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I spent a lot of time in Mexico and here in New York is basically, you know, like Latinos, you know, his Latinx population everywhere you go. Now, this op ed, which I'm going to put this in the show notes as well. It's [00:31:00] called, this is an LA Times here by a great Mary Beth, Judge Mary Beth O'Connor. Good old Mary Beth.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And, you know, I'm originally from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, so I've got that Southern in me too. You know, I love me a good old Southern. I got a Southern name. So, the title of this op ed in the LA Times, written by our judge, Mary Beth O'Connor, is called, It Wasn't Luck That Allowed Me To Become A Judge After Meth Addiction.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It Was White Privilege. In this article Mary Beth gives us this statement, Black men in California are 42 percent more likely than Latino men, 32. 5 percent more likely to be sentenced to than white men with similar criminal history. records and convictions for the Latino population in particular.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Do you believe that this was just like a California thing or was this nationwide? 

Mary Beth O'Connor: It's nationwide. I mean, the reason I [00:32:00] cited the California stats is because it was the LA times and it's, you know, a California newspaper, but the problem is nationwide and it's, it's all, it's been a problem forever. I mean, the truth is that The origin of many of the drug laws was racially motivated.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I mean, Nixon was really racially motivated when they started their war on drugs, right? They wanted to use it as a method to to control the minority populations. They, they said that, you know, that's on some of the recordings from Nixon. I mean, it was one of the rationales. And so, So, and even in the 20s and 30s, there was this whole, you know, mythology around the jazz musicians, you know, using drugs.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It's, it's always been a social control tool and, and it's weaponized against minority communities. And think, it's not just that you charge them criminally, right? Felonies on your records have lifelong impacts. I mean, it impacts your ability to get a job. It impacts your ability to get benefits a lot of the [00:33:00] times.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It impacts your ability as to where you can live or or what kind of work you can get. And it impacts the way you're ready to vote. You can lose your right to vote if you have felony convictions. And so there it's not as if you're just putting people away. Oh, and then there's the family impact, right?

Mary Beth O'Connor: You're breaking up families. A lot of times there is, you know, there's no father in the house or whatever. So there's a lot of ripple. It's not a it's not a small issue. It's a major issue that has lifelong impact on a significant proportion of our society. And it's, I mean, I'm against the drug laws in general, but if you're going to enforce them in such an unfair way, that alone erodes any legitimacy that they might have.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And you have a whole heap load of compassion. You're one of those people who actually embodies the tenets of what Christianity is supposed to be, even though you don't fuck with Christianity like that. And it always just tickles my soul [00:34:00] in like a certain way that I don't know any word in any language whenever I encounter, you know, a soul like on, on, on your level.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's like you have the heart of Christ, you're full of compassion, you care about others, you can think. deeply into the full implications of how people will be impacted by decisions than you act based out of what is in the best interest of someone other than yourself. And people in church don't do this.

De'Vannon Seráphino: And people in a lot of positions don't do this. Physicians of authority do not do this. So, as a judge, and I know you were an administrative law judge, so you weren't necessarily deciding on criminal cases, but nevertheless, judges talk, you have your opinions on things, and so on and so forth. And I'm judges from different disciplines, you know, set at the same table that you find that you clash with other judges who perhaps were not as compassionate and empathetic.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I'll say [00:35:00] this. I train lawyers and judges now, and I train about substance use. And so one of the things that I talk to them about is, first of all, multiple pathways because it is not uncommon for judges or not just judges, but judges, parole officers, probation officers, right to force people into 12 steps.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And one of the things I tell them is you're actually undermining the odds of success for a significant proportion of the people you say you're trying to help. So that undermines your goal. But the other thing is that judges and and, you know, other legal organizations, often they're not they're not using evidence based techniques.

Mary Beth O'Connor: So, for example, in Philadelphia, the court system just had to settle with the Department of Justice because they were refusing to allow people to have medication assisted treatment for their opioid use disorder. So they were not if you were on probation or parole or what, if you being diverted into drug [00:36:00] court, you weren't allowed to take buprenorphine or methadone, even if you were already on it.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And the problem with that is that buprenorphine and methadone are a gold standard medical treatment and drug, they're actually, it's a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act to force them off of medication. And so, or the, or people the systems often require. Perfect abstinence, right? And then you have a massive consequence if you don't have perfect absence.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Well, the reality is most people can't do perfect abstinence from day one, even if they're trying hard. I mean, I used three times in my first five months. I didn't have perfect abstinence either. And so if the system is, it's, if you're requiring perfect abstinence from day one, you're setting most people up for failure and is, and it's just not an evidence you.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Based approach. And so those are the kinds of things I talk to them about to make sure that if they have control over people because of criminal charges or whatever it might be, that if they're gonna if they're [00:37:00] gonna set systems up that are supposed to help them because of their substance use disorder, let's make sure those systems are evidence-based.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And there they're actually gonna give the person a fair opportunity to succeed and not actually undermine their success. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: And see what you're doing is, is causing them to have a gut check moment, you know, like, what are you in this profession for? Are you actually here to help people? Are you here to get promoted and make money and use vulnerable populations as stepping stones as you step on their necks?

De'Vannon Seráphino: Do you actually care about people at all? Are you here? Prosecutor, lawyer, judge, police officer, to take out your rage and vindictiveness against people because you have a Napoleon complex or insecurities and you believe that your badge or your gavel allow you to, why are you here? Have your reasons changed when you first went to the police academy or the law school?

De'Vannon Seráphino: Did you have that gleam in your eyes and think you [00:38:00] could change the world? Have you become bitter after your interactions with people and now you don't sound give a fuck anymore? You know, you know, I love what you said. 

Mary Beth O'Connor: And the other thing is, have you kept up with the science, right? Because look, when I got sober 30 years ago, some of the things my rehab taught me, they weren't true the day they told me them.

Mary Beth O'Connor: But some of the things that they thought were true, it turns out aren't true. And we know that now because we have a lot more studies and we have a lot more science and we have other approaches and other techniques that have been tried. And so sometimes people get Stuck in what they thought was true in 1992 and they haven't updated it.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Well, if you're operating based on what you were taught in 1992 and you won't listen to new information and, and, you know, new studies and new evidence, then you're not, you're doing a disservice. First of all, you're not doing your job because your job should include an obligation to actually keep [00:39:00] informed and up to date.

Mary Beth O'Connor: But second of all, you're. You're not giving people the fair chance that you're pretending to give them. And so I, I just, I, I don't want to I don't think they're all doing it maliciously, but I, I really think it's important for me to bring to their attention some of the things they may be doing that are are not evidence based now that we have a lot more knowledge and information than we had 20 or 30 

De'Vannon Seráphino: years ago.

De'Vannon Seráphino: What I love from 20, 30 years ago is how science based psychedelic treatments are having a resurgence during the time that that whole war against drug foolishness, was beginning. We had psychedelics being studied, but then it was stifled and, you know, quieted because that would have been, you know, Not good for the war on drugs and the people who benefited from that and, [00:40:00]but it's coming back now.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I'm here at the Bronx VA. They have an MDMA study group that I'm trying to get into. There's a ketamine clinic that they're trying to get started there. I think they have 1 down at the Manhattan VA. So I'm happy to see this starting to come back in government. you know, you can get ayahuasca in different parts of the country.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I'm actually going down to Mexico in about three weeks. There's a nonprofit agency called the Heroic Hearts Project that sponsors veterans to go to Peru and Mexico to help us with PTSD and different psychological issues. I'm all for plant medicine. I'm all for meditations, different things like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Even though I am for the Trinity and I believe, you know, in God and everything like that, these programs are not for me. The psychedelic movement is not like, say, God centered, you know, a person can believe whatever, whatever they want, you know, it's, it's about the effects that these substances have in a positive way when under a guided, whatever the guide, be it a psych, psych, [00:41:00] psychiatric person or a shaman or whatever the case may be.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I love how flexible it is for all belief systems. Yeah, well, I 

Mary Beth O'Connor: mean, the good news is, as you say, they're starting to do research again, because it's important. We want to make decisions based on actual information. So, for example for, for, whether it's for cannabis or for psychedelics, people that have any tendency towards psychosis, should not take those drugs, you know, and so if none of it's going to be for everyone, but it does look like it under the right circumstances, you know, with guided guidance from a therapist or whatever it might be that it, it does look like it may help with PTSD, anxiety, and, and maybe substance use disorder.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And so I always support more information and more knowledge and more study. that we can offer people treatment options because the truth is no treatment works for everyone, right? I mean, some people will respond to one type of treatment and some will respond to another. So the more options we have on our plate, the more [00:42:00] likely we are to be able to help someone 

De'Vannon Seráphino: heal.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Absolutely. There's a, there's a book by a friend of mine called Emily. Her name's Emily Duft and she wrote a book called Grassroots and it really got into it. She's more like into like the whole cannabis movement and everything like that. But she really got into the detail about like the war on drugs and how the how the psychedelics were coming up back in that time, but then they got stifled and everything like that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So in terms of expansion of education, I wanted to throw that, throw that name out there because it's one of those reads you read and you get like angry and you're like, why did I not know this? So I didn't know and tell me this. How could they, the audacity of it all, you know, give me my psychedelics and my weed, man.

De'Vannon Seráphino: We weren't trying to hurt anybody. It was a summer of love.

Mary Beth O'Connor: That's right. You know, but even with cannabis, I mean, you know, a couple things about it. One is that, [00:43:00] first of all, America under appreciates the dangers of alcohol, right? I mean, alcohol is still the number one abuse drug. And even with the overdose epidemic, more people died of alcohol related causes in 2022, then died of overdose.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It's getting closer, but it's still higher. On the other hand, cannabis, which is much, which is lower risk than alcohol doesn't risk. free. I mean, for example, teenagers in particular, it's better for them to wait until they're older because of the brain development impact. It's better for them to wait for all drugs until they're older.

Mary Beth O'Connor: And also there is a group of people, as I said, who have like psychosis in their family or if they have any symptoms, cannabis isn't right for them. And so it's really, to me, just about Providing people with accurate information so they can make accurate risk assessments, right? Let's not exaggerate the harms, but let's not ignore the real harm, the real risks either.

Mary Beth O'Connor: Let's provide all the robust, [00:44:00] accurate information so we can make choices about what we're gonna do. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Knowledge is power. Yes, yes. As Jesus said it, you should know the truth and the truth shall make you free.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Was it Maya Angelou said, when we know better, we do better. Yes, yes. So however you want to, however you want to look at it, spiritual, religious or not, good sense is just good sense. At the end of the day. I stopped drinking alcohol, after this last trip that I took, you know, to the, to the psych ward. And in the isolation, within that isolation and the silence, I accepted what I already knew was that, Alcohol is truly a depressant, and when I was drinking it, it was excavating the anxiety and the things that I was dealing with and trying to overcome.

De'Vannon Seráphino: It's sneaky, because it is, like you said, it's everywhere, it's prolific, friends do it, [00:45:00] parents do it, your kids are doing it, siblings doing it, and if you dare go somewhere and you don't want to drink, people pressure you, oh, come on, have another. You know, and it wasn't until I stopped that it's like I felt like that, like, like that alcohol had talons in my heart, which had been controlling me and clutching me this whole time.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I had been drinking since the age of five. And after I stopped, and I stopped because I felt like God flipped the switch and took Alcohol crack crystal meth and cocaine away from me. I don't take away from anybody's, you know, interpretation of their deliverance. Yours wasn't God. Mine was all God.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Happy. We can sit at the table and give, you know, then talk about it all respectfully. But it wasn't until it was removed that I was like, holy. Fuck, I can't believe that this thing was controlling me this whole time, and it's just one of those things, now that I'm out of the forest, I can see the damn trees.

De'Vannon Seráphino: So, alcohol is sneaky, [00:46:00] y'all be careful. I want to give this warning to our law enforcement people, then I'll let you have the last word, and then I'll ask you those mom joke questions. So, Our good friend here, the good judge, Mayor Beth O'Connor, is training law enforcement agency people and lawyers and judges and everything like that in all cases.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Of the agencies work in tandem with each other. Lawyers, prosecutors, judges, paramedics EMS operators, parole officers, probation officers non weapon carrying security, they all know the same frequencies to share and things like that. They have a working relationship. The thing they also have in common is that they have direct influence over the vulnerable population.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Of people who are addicts, I repeat offenders, even for violent crime and things like that. We haven't touched on violent crime. The data is completely separate, not completely separate, but separate. So, I just want to throw that little nugget out there. It's still [00:47:00] in that same population. Some of us termed the drugs after we've had abusive childhood.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Some people, unfortunately, you know. come to a point where they want to hurt other people, but that's, you know, kind of a different area. I just wanted to remind the people involved with various aspects of law enforcement, it's a great work that you're doing, but it is for the people. And whatever you believe spiritually just be careful how you talk about people, think about people, witch hunt people, and things like that, because everything that we, as the saying goes in Eastern religion, what the spider does to the web, it does to itself.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Now, whether or not that's going to be today or tomorrow, be careful what you sow, because you're going to reap that back, regardless of how you believe. Whenever we have somebody weak in our presence, Be they strung out, super depressed, suicidal, whatever, it is an opportunity for us to do good, not to taunt them, make it worse, [00:48:00] make fun of them, or get annoyed with the fact that here they are yet high again.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Well, that's kind of how it goes. And so, it's an opportunity to show love and patience and mercy and to sow that for yourself into the future and for your kids as well. So I just wanted to, don't let yourself become overburdened with the negativity and the disappointments that can come along with dealing with such a rough and vulnerable population.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Just remember that these are yet God's children, and if you don't believe in God, still, they're fellow human beings. And it's an opportunity for you to do something good to that web so that you're not ultimately hurting yourself in the future, my law enforcing people. And I appreciate the work that you do.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Now. Having stepped off of my soapbox there. Anything you'd like to say at all about anything to anyone? I like to let my people just kind of close out this show. So thankful to have had you [00:49:00] on here today. And, and her website, y'all, is Lord. Junkietojudge. com Facebook, LinkedIn. X or Twitter, whichever one you wanna call that.

De'Vannon Seráphino: I'm gonna put all these links in the show note as well as a link directly to the book as well with that beautiful cover. So anything you'd like to say, go ahead and say it, then I'll ask you those mom jokes. Sure. 

Mary Beth O'Connor: I, the one thing I, I would like to say is you had mentioned this sort of the low success rate of treatment and and I, I know that we hear those numbers a lot and it's.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It's true for each effort, but I want to share good news at the end. And so the good news is that for people who have a substance use disorder in their lifetime, 75 percent of them will recover. It's just often not in one effort, right? It may take multiple efforts. The other thing, the other positive data point I'd like to share is that when someone hits five years of sobriety, continuous sobriety.

Mary Beth O'Connor: They have an 85 percent chance [00:50:00] of never relapsing again. And so some, I say that because there's this sort of ideology that we have to stay hyper focused on our recovery for the rest of our life. Just like on day one, day 5, 000, you have to stay that focused. It's just not true. The good news is that for most of us, it gets easier with time and and it becomes more just who you are.

Mary Beth O'Connor: It's just sort of, you know, a normal part of your life. And so I do like to share positive numbers sometimes because we hear so many sort of depressing numbers too often, but most people will eventually recover. It just can take some time. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: All right. Absolutely. I'm so thankful to know that I did not know that I hadn't actually considered like the different.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Time stages, five years of sobriety. I guess that's a pretty strong foundation. So I'm so happy to hear that any kind of hope, you know, so thank you for shedding that light, you know, into all of this darkness and keep being that light. I don't care how much darkness is around [00:51:00]you. You keep shining anyway.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Thank you. Absolutely. So mom joke, number one, and these jokes today, y'all come to us from thepioneerwoman. com. I'm channeling my divine feminine. Myself right now, feeling fabulous with my lilac beard as it is feeling very springy up here in New York. Being 45 degrees, which is like warm to me now. So what do you call a mother cow that has just given birth?

De'Vannon Seráphino: I, I don't 

Mary Beth O'Connor: know. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: De calf inated.

Mary Beth O'Connor: I would not have gotten that one. I would not, never have gotten that one. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Oh, these are just, these are just meant to make us laugh, like when somebody is actually able to get one of these, it's like, it's like a shock and it's, it's, it's, this is a test to the world. When you, when, when you can still laugh at a mom or a dad or other joke after all the things we've been [00:52:00] through, you know, you're going to be all right.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Mom joke number two, how millennial?

De'Vannon Seráphino: I don't know in, in Instagrams, I 

Mary Beth O'Connor: almost saw in tons because you're 2000 pounds, but you know, that's my math going, but that's better. That's better in Instagrams. That's better. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: I thought that was so cute. And why is the computer so smart? 

Mary Beth O'Connor: I like to say because people made it, but I guess that's not going to be the answer.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Because it listens to its motherboard. Oh, 

Mary Beth O'Connor: mom joke. Of course, mom joke. Motherboard. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: All right, my dear, thank you so much for coming on this show today. Again, this has been our great judge, Mary Beth O'Connor, [00:53:00] junkytojudge. com. And that's also the name of her book. It will all go in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Thanks for 

Mary Beth O'Connor: having me. I appreciate it. 

De'Vannon Seráphino: Absolutely.

De'Vannon Seráphino: thank you all so much for joining us today and for taking some time to invest into yourself and into the lives of your loved ones, please visit us at sex drugs and jesus. com and check out our resource page, our spiritual service offerings, my blog, my books, and other writings that God has partnered with me to create.

De'Vannon Seráphino: Find us on any social media platform, stay strong, my people, and just remember that everything is going to be all right. [00:54:00]