Karten's Inclusion Conversations Podcast

KIC S1E8 Leap, Soar, Restore: The Power of Art to Bring People Together Featuring Suzanne Gregoire

• Toby Karten • Season 1 • Episode 8

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Karten's Inclusion Conversations S1E8 Featuring Suzanne Gregoire
Toby and Suzanne's conversation about the global art program had several themes emerge, including the power of art to bring people together and create a sense of community, as well as the importance of inclusion and acceptance, with art serving as a powerful tool for promoting these values. They also discuss the potential of art to help people express themselves and heal from trauma, and the importance of collaboration and working together to create something beautiful. Additionally, the legacy of Tim Lomas and his impact on the lives of many people were recognized in the conversation. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the numerous ways that art can be harnessed to make a positive impact on the world, promoting creativity, connection, and inclusivity.

Websites mentioned in the podcast:

#TobyKarten #SuzanneGregoire #Karten’sInclusionConversations #KIC #Inclusion #ArtsInEducation #InclusionMatters #GlobalChildrensArtProgram #DanceEducation #CulturalExchange #ArtsForAll #InspiringStudents #InclusiveEducation #EmpoweringThroughArt #CreativityInSchools#TheIdealSchool 



For more information please visit https://inclusionworkshops.com/

Hi everybody, I'm delighted to be here today to talk with Suzanne Gregoire in Karten's Inclusion Conversations. I had the honor of meeting Suzanne Gregoire at a school in New York City and she was a yoga teacher, a dance instructor, and she was able to bring out the best in students who had different needs, but she knew that one way of communicating was through dance, which was so wonderful to be an inclusion coach with you, Suzanne. And just, you know, welcome to Karten's Inclusion Conversations. I have a whole bio about you, how you've been in dance since a very early young age and a little bit of your background also about the global art program that you were involved with with a very dear colleague of ours, Tim Lomas, who recently passed and if we could just do a quick moment of silence for Tim and then we'll talk a little bit more about him. So Tim Lomas left, as we've said, very huge footprints in artwork, in making students smile and working with others. He was an artist, a musician, a teacher, a photographer, a long time East Village resident, and did lots of art and ceramic work all over New York City and his beloved little dog Ginger in the Tomskins Square Park area. And he was a very talented teacher as well and an inspiration to children at the Third Street Music School and the Ideal School. And he also did something amazing, Suzanne, I'm going to hold something up. And I don't know if you were aware of this. Did you know he did this? Yes, he told me about it. He was very excited about it. Suzanne, could you tell our listeners what they are looking at and what we're talking about? This is a book called Inclusion Strategies and Interventions. And one of the murals that Tim created with a community of people, I believe that one was in Turkey. I'm not sure if you asked him if you could use that mural for the cover of the book. And it really looks beautiful. I know. And we always say with students, we propagate growth. And I think Tim was a firm believer in that. And we all met under the same circumstances at a school. And we were helping each other help kids. And we collaborated. And here we are, umpteen, I think we established more than a decade later. And we're still having inclusion conversations. So I love it. And I love the fact that Tim had a big impact with the global art program. So Suzanne, are there a couple of things that maybe you could share with us about maybe how this global children's art program started or how you started off about working together with Tim on this project or anything you think would help the listeners to continue both of your desire to spread art around the world? Well, thank you for the opportunity. So it started in 2004. There was a terrible tsunami, which you might recall in Southeast Asia, which really hit many parts of Southern Thailand. And so Tim just went there out of the goodness of his heart to an area in Southern Thailand called Khao Lak. And that region was very, very hard hit. And so he went there to help rebuild homes. And so during the day, he would carry buckets of cement and build foundations. And then in the afternoons, he would go to the relief camps and work with the children and make art with them. And it was their first kind of experience of normalcy, so to speak, where they could express through art what they had experienced and the losses. Many of them had obviously lost family members and also kind of looked to the future. And maybe draw flowers and fish and the sky and the sun. And so that's how it all started. And he never had any plans to create a nonprofit organization. But from there, it grew and he was invited back. And in these last, whatever it is now, 19 years, it's grown into this fantastic organization. And he's visited many countries, not just Thailand, but Nepal, Cambodia, Chad, Turkey, Greece, India, yeah, among many others. There's some places where he's just gone back a few times. And then there's others where he goes back every year. And I got involved in 2018. I had left the school. And he asked me, because we had sort of started collaborating a lot on projects at the ideal school, they would have these assemblies that were very often. I saw one of those assemblies. Lynn? Yes. Do you remember which one it was that you saw? I saw one where the kids were just performing for the whole school, like I believe it was at the lower elementary level. Yeah, yeah. So some of the assemblies, they were usually around some kind of cultural tradition or holiday. And so for instance, we would do an assembly around Diwali. And so he would make diyas with the children. They're like these tiny little saucers, you might call them, or candle holders. They're very, very small. And in the Hindu tradition, they put oil and a string and they light it up. And it's part of a festival of light. It's a very beautiful festival. So I would create dances with the children. And they felt a real sense of empowerment, I think, because they were dancing with things that they had created themselves, objects they'd created themselves. And then we did that with many different assemblies, the Lunar New Year and what they call the Festival of Light at the school. And so when I left, by that time, we had done quite a few projects together and he said, I'd love to incorporate dance into what I do at the Global Children's Art Program. So would you like to come to Thailand? And so that's how it all started. So I went with him to this foundation there. And that's one of the places where he goes every year or where he went every year. It's called the Children's Shelter Foundation. It's in Northern Thailand. So he always creates a mural just like the one that's on the cover of your book. Whatever place he visits, that will be one of the pieces. And everyone contributes to that mural. Very often, it'll be like a collage and then he puts it all together onto one piece. So everyone creates one little piece through a collage and then it goes on to this background. And so the mural was very often the backdrop for the dance that I would create with the children. And then because dance was incorporated, they would also make props and also costumes. So since then, I've been going every year, except of course during COVID when we didn't go anywhere. And it's just built from there. And what's really wonderful about working with these particular children is that not only do we learn, we come with our perspective and what we know, what we want to share, what our background, and then they give us much of theirs. And between the two, we build something new. And also what's wonderful about going back is that the bond becomes deeper because you meet these children every year and you see them get older and the more they get to know you, the more they feel safe working with you. And so it's been a very, very wonderful experience. And the last project that we did together, we also videotaped and made a little film of it. And so that is something that I've shared with my students in New York and that he's also shared with students here. So that's part of what the cultural exchange is. The students here, they learn so much about what these students are doing in a faraway place that many of them know nothing about and vice versa. We bring photographs, we bring artwork. It's a cultural exchange and it's nobody has a monopoly on art, nobody has a monopoly on culture. And I'm reading the inside here and it talks about him as being known for the international work in social justice and inclusive education in the arts. And I think that both of you really are champions in that area, bringing out the best and sometimes some students don't feel they could do the same as everyone else, especially if they have cognitive and developmental disabilities. And I always say in a lot of my workshops, same but different. We need to know the same knowledge, but we're going to learn it in different ways. That brings me to something about art and the wonderful conduit for inclusion. I know that you probably need about eight more podcast times to answer this question, but I'm going to ask you, why can the arts be a wonderful conduit for inclusion? Well I think we're all inherently creative. Everybody is. I love that. Wait, stop right there. Say that again, please. We're all inherently creative people. Kudos, kudos. A lot of people say, I can't draw, I can't sing, I can't dance. I can dance the way I could dance. I could sing the way I could sing. I could draw. You take it away, Suzanne. You add wist, wrinkles, and cherries to that. I mean, I think the arts, because everyone is inherently creative, the arts are a perfect place because everybody can contribute something, whatever it is. In contributing something, bonds are formed and connection is made. Then in making connections and in also building these relationships through these connections, acceptance grows out of that. Each person is unique, like you say, but we also are all part of a whole. I like to think of it also that we all have differences, and so we have that in common so in a sense we're all the same, if that makes any sense. You're preaching to the choir, Suzanne, yes, and I'm asking some standard questions of some people. I think you could see a few icons I'm sharing with you. I have a ruler that stands for structure, a compassion for the heart. I'll paraphrase Maya Angelou when she said, people will remember how you treat them long after they forget what you said to them, which it sounds like you left huge footprints as well in the global art program with Tim across the world. Awareness of what students need and their uniqueness to bring out their strengths and collaboration which I think that you both exemplified and with many other colleagues as well and the people across the world in reflection and thinking about what else could we do? How does it make? I'm going to ask you to pick one of these icons and maybe relate it to the art for structure, awareness, compassion, collaboration, or reflection. I think, well, I guess with collaboration, I'll pick that one. We come as teachers, so-called, although I like to think of myself coming to exchange ideas as opposed to teaching and imposing- Yes, yes, conversations and showing not just possibilities, possibilities I think is a good thing as well. I come with an idea with a theme, let's say, when I give it as an example when I go to Thailand and so I have my perspective. Then when I meet the children, the students that I'm working with, they have their perspective. In working together, we almost create something new, a new perspective. In that sense, in terms of working internationally, we're not just crossing borders, but we're expanding borders. Out of that, we create a new culture, so to speak. Then that creates a global mindset. Having global mindset, I'm speaking in very large, big words, but this way acceptance really comes out of that. I think that you piggybacked also on the awareness of what people need and awareness of each other's perspectives as well. I think that like we've been saying, the arts is such a wonderful vehicle for some students to express themselves in a way that they could just feel good about themselves. Maybe they're not wonderful in science or math or reading or other disciplines, but the art is a way for them to even strengthen those disciplines in ways that get them to understand so much more through visuals, through creations, through feelings of self-efficacy. I know if we could, could we talk a little bit about you? Is that okay as well, what you do here in this town called New York? Tell me a little bit about some of the impact you have with students in the arts and what you're doing. I work at a place called the Kauffman Music Center, which is a cultural center. It focuses on music, dance, and theater. I've been working there for many, many years. I was working there while I was at Ideal as well, and now, of course, I'm working there much more. I teach classical ballet and also musical theater. Because I've always been interested in various cultures, that seems to very often be the theme of the dances that I choreograph. Some of the children who come are very serious and want to have careers in the field and some of them not at all. They just come, they enjoy dancing for whatever reason. It's not an inclusion model in the sense of the inclusion school where I worked with Tim, but there's always, like I was saying, everybody is different. Within a New York classroom or studio, there's so much diversity right there. To plug into that and to bring in the various cultures and backgrounds of those students in the movement that we do, I think is really important. I do that, and then I teach yoga, and then I do that with children. I have to stop you right there because I remember, you remember the things you want to remember and had an impact on you, so I do a lot of inclusion coaching. At that time, I remember you were doing yoga and one of the inclusion principles was show more visuals that I have on my website, discrete task analysis, and you ate up, I had visuals of different yoga poses. You were so happy to see those and to then share with the students as a way for them to do that. I remember that, yeah. Right? So why do we remember that? It's a way to get students to learn through visuals, through dance, through ways, step by step. So maybe at the different settings, they're not great at something like the students that you meet. Some of them are there because they might be wanting to become ballerinas or they might become more involved in the arts, and some of them are just doing it to enjoy and just the expression and the arts from what you said. You're preaching to the choir because you'll find me hanging out at the MoMA, you'll find me hanging out at Lincoln Center and different places just to get a bite of something that makes you smile in a way that it's just nothing better than the creativity. And when the kids realized and you propagated so many times that it doesn't have to be perfect. Tim also, it didn't have to be perfect, but it had to be you. And you said that word's unique. It sounds like you're reaching a lot of people in your current role and doing things with different levels and different ways that the art seems to run through your veins, am I correct in saying that? I think so. Yeah. Yeah. And when you were four years old, you started your ballet career at four? Is that right? I started actually a little bit older than that. I was eight or nine when I started training. I think what I was telling you earlier was that I learned English when I was four because my thing is from France. Yeah. So I learned, I went to a very formal kind of ballet school, it was a wonderful place. And then from there I got involved in modern dance and was always really interested even with classical training and modern dance and learning dances from different cultures. So of course there are many dances all over the world. You can't master them all, but when I was younger, I focused on Spanish dance and also one style of Indian dance called Kuchipudi. What is it called? Called Kuchipudi. I'm going to have to research that or we're going to have to meet again and you're going to have to teach me how to do Kuchipudi. Help me out? Kuchipudi. Got it. And then I also go into the public schools a few days a week and I work with teachers and help them to incorporate arts activities to enhance their academic support. And I think that's an important part. Like a lot of kids have attention issues or they might feel a little more fidgety or organization. And it's funny because I used to use the arts a lot for them to concentrate on details because a lot of our kids just want to be in a hurry, whether or not they have something called that IEP or not, or a special classification, but the arts are a way to smile. It's a way to slow down step by step and to concentrate on the big picture, literally and figuratively. You have a way of, and Tim also, I guess that's part of your training as well, is accepting people at the level they are and getting them to, even the mirror part that I showed you that reflection, to reflect on how they could even do more. And not everything has to be framed. Not everything's going to be on the stage in the dance that you're doing, but it's a way of expression. And that's such a beautiful thing that I wish more people would embrace in our schools. And I'm delighted to hear that you are having such a big impact with students and teachers and teaching them to appreciate the art. I remember I was working with a teacher and I had to go in her classroom to work and it was called push-in then and co-teaching. And when I was at a school in New Jersey and I couldn't find them, Suzanne, they weren't in the class going, where are they? Well, the teacher was also, you'd appreciate this. I don't know if I ever shared this. She was a yoga instructor and it was a beautiful day outside and she took the kids outside and they were doing yoga and they were only doing it for maybe seven minutes. And those seven minutes made the math lesson that followed amazing afterwards, because I mean, what's your take on that? Do you have more to add to that? I used to actually do that with, I would do what we call yoga stories. So I would introduce yoga poses and with children, I mainly picked poses that have animal names, you know, like cat, dog, the mouse pose, which is really the child pose and different poses that had animal names, and then also the sun and the moon, the sun salutation. And so each child would have a pose and then we would create a story. So it was, you know, once upon a time there was a cat and then the cat would do their cat pose and it was a sunny day. And so that helped them enjoy to write a story and they would, you know, it wasn't calming kind of peaceful in the sense of, you know, what you would, the stereotype of yoga, but they would really enjoy it because they would jump into a pose and then they would jump into another pose. And I'm thinking that that was also listening, auditory processing, following directions. I mean, there's just a gazillion benefits for the arts and for people like you at the helm, you just make it inviting for students and they don't think that they have to make it perfect. They just have to make it something that makes them and others smile. And that's a good thing in this world. And spreading that good feeling is something that I think the arts does with, it's a wonderful way to do that. Also, I just want to add that it goes both ways in that, you know, I remember in teaching an inclusion class, let's say there is a student who can only move one side of their body. Then the student who is very able, they would, let's say I put them together as partners, they would learn a lot about that part of their body as well, that they had never really focused on before. So it really is a conversation. I love that example because it goes back to the modeling. It goes back to that icon that you picked, which is called collaboration. It also goes back to the structure, the ruler, because you organized it in a way that you paired them together to bring out the strength. And that's something that I think a lot of people are embracing now and more people need to embrace, that inclusion is now just good for the student with the special needs, but for general education students as well, for all of us to grow. Because I think we're all students, you know, I hate that term regular. It makes me think that special ed is irregular, you know, and it's just different. It's just different representations, actions, expressions, and that's what the arts do. That's something that, hey, would you come back and be a guest again and just talk more, maybe pick one thing, or maybe we could just play with those animal poses and we'll do some things. I would love to. I'm honored. Yeah. No, I would love to do that. It would be fun. And I have to ask you one more question and then I'm going to invite you to say any closing things to our listeners as well. I know that kind of the global children's art program is a little bit in a flux right now in terms of the future and plans because of Tim had always been at the helm of that. And I was wondering, what are your hopes for the program in the future? I know there's no definite plan right now, but maybe there's something that our listeners could hear or people could collaborate with you on. If there's something that you would like to share, I would love for you to do that. I would. Yeah. I mean, I very much hope that we can continue the program and expand it. And one of the things that Tim always said, and you probably heard was planting seeds. He used to say that all the time. Why do you think I wanted the flowers? That's what we do. Right. Yeah. And also the regeneration. So you plant seeds and something grows and then it dies and then it's cyclical and then you plant more seeds and something grows. So I'm sort of seeing it that way now is we're not quite sure. We need to keep planting seeds and we're not quite sure where it's going to go, but I think it's really important to keep it going. And my intention is to go back to Thailand this summer and continue working with the students. Also, one thing that Tim always did and that I very much support is bringing in local artists from the area. So since he was the visual artist component and that's where it all started in the global children's art program was visual art, we definitely want to continue that. I'd like to connect with children in other parts of the world. And ideally, right now, we've always brought some of their work here and shown work from students here over there. And I'd like to do more of that. And the easiest way to do that is through video and the internet. But eventually, if you think big, it would be wonderful to have even one student start with one student come from the States and visit there. It's easier for Americans to go there. There's a lot of issues with some of these children leaving the country. It's very difficult for them to do that. And so that would- And some of them we know are in countries with homes that aren't always intact. Yes. Is that correct? Oh, for sure. Yeah. All children, they all have families. They all have parents who are not orphans, but their parents for whatever reason have chosen to have them put in the care of the foundation. They might not have the means. They might have criminal right, whoever, whatever it is, it might be that they... And so they live there. They go to school in the area. And many of them from the hill tribe regions don't speak Thai, actually. They speak their own language. So when they come there, they have to learn Thai. Let me ask you a question. Do you speak the same language in dance there as you would here? Exactly. So that was the other thing I was going to say about why are the arts such a great conduit for inclusion is because whether it's visual art or music or dance, you don't need to use language. So we are connecting. Music is the language. Dance is the language. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's a good way for us to close this session, Suzanne Gregoire. I'm enamored by people who spread the word with such a smile, with such kindness to allow cultures to grow and to know each other and to add smiles and to focus on the positive. And I think the Global Art Program is here to stay. And I'm going to ask you to give some web links that I will post for this broadcast that maybe some of our listeners want to find out more about it or maybe how they could be involved in it in some way. You know, I think it's important to spread the word hummingbird, you know. Oh, I so appreciate that and it is. That's how we've grown is, you know, from individual and not just from grants, but also from individuals contributing. I have one more question I have to ask you. I've been asking this one a little bit. You are the Emperor of Inclusion. Did you know that? I just made you the Emperor of Inclusion. And if you could do anything to make inclusion everyone's foremost project to make say this is going to work in our world. What would you do? What would you do in our country, in our world to make inclusion? I think, you know, it all starts with relationships. So building relationships and through that comes understanding and knowing, as I had said earlier, that we are we are different, but we're also the same. Yeah. Suzanne Gregoire, thank you so much. Karten's Inclusion Conversations and stay tuned because Suzanne said she is coming back. So stay tuned for that one. Thank you for all you do. My pleasure. And he can feel the stairs and hear the words unspoken. Not so unaware of a world that thinks he's broken and who never even knew a kid with a different point of view. No, they never really knew a kid with a different point of view. Copyright MMXXIII Karten's Inclusive Conversations. Thank you for listening. Check out other episodes on all major platforms.