KIC S1E9 A Conversation About Learning Challenges: What Everyone Needs to Know Featuring Tobie Franklin

Karten's Inclusion Conversations S1E9 Featuring Tobie Franklin
The conversation with Tobie Franklin begins with Tobie sharing her experience with COVID-19. She describes how the virus affected her brain, causing her to have difficulty with memory, concentration, and organization. She also talks about how she felt emotionally during this time, feeling isolated and frustrated.  Toby continues the conversation with Tobie by discussing the importance of relationships in education. Tobie shares her experience working with students with learning challenges, and how the relationships she built with them made all the difference. She also talks about the power of positive affirmations, and how they can help students feel good about themselves and their abilities.

Websites mentioned in the podcast:

• The National Center for Learning Disabilities ( https://www.ncld.org/ ): This website provides information and resources for students with learning disabilities and their families.
• The IDEAL School of Education https://www.theidealschool.org/
• The Learning Disabilities Association of America ( https://ldaamerica.org/ ): This website provides information and resources for students with learning disabilities and their families.
• The National Institute of Child Health and Human Development https://www.nichd.nih.gov/ This website provides information about learning disabilities from the National Institutes of Health.

#TobyKarten #TobieFranklin #Karten’sInclusionConversations #KIC #Inclusion #InclusionMatters #DiverseLearners #EmpathyInEducation #CommunicationSkills #ReflectiveThinking #MindfulnessMatters #InclusiveEducation #SupportingAllStudents #DifferentAbilities #EducationForAll #LDDA #NCLD #NICHD

For more information please visit https://inclusionworkshops.com/

Transcript

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Welcome to Karten's Inclusive Conversations podcast. Good afternoon, everyone. It is our pleasure to be here today, and I have a very exciting guest with us because I've known this person for almost, I think, more than a decade. And she'll tell us a little bit maybe about how we met and some of our experiences together in the United States and other countries as well. And the person is Toby Franklin, and Toby, welcome to Karten's Inclusion Conversations. Thank you for agreeing to be a guest here. My pleasure. Could you possibly give us a little bit of insight? I personally know you for many years and professionally, and I know about your qualifications, but I think our listeners need to hear a little bit more. Would you mind sharing a little bit about your background in the field of education? And remember, we don't have like a decade to talk about it because you have a very long curriculum vitae. Toby, what should our listeners know about your experiences? Okay, maybe it's helpful to start with how we met. Absolutely. All right, so I was the director of learning support at the Ideal School of Manhattan, which is an independent inclusion school from birth through the end of high school. And when I was working there, you were already familiar with the school. You were one of the consultants. You were their inclusion consultant. And so we formed a professional relationship. But my being in New York was unique because I'm actually Canadian. So I moved to New York for that job. But through my work experience, I've actually worked in five different countries in educational settings, but also clinical settings. So my background is in special education, but I have gone through graduate school and studied not just special education, but child assessment, counseling, and human rights law as well, and I've actually, I was just going to say I've actually worked with individuals from birth right through college. Yeah, the wealth of knowledge and experience that you bring to a staff is so admirable. And I think our listeners will gain a lot of information. And Toby, I know we kind of like broached this topic, but I just want to say that I think we have to have more than one inclusion conversation based on different topics in your experience. But it was very difficult for us to kind of narrow down today's topic, but I think it's very much on the minds of a lot of people. And I think that the insights gained from today's conversation will help many of our listeners in the field. And it has to do with how our brain functions, how we learn, but it's a little more than that. Toby, do you want to tell us a little bit more about how we agreed that this might be an excellent conversation to have for listeners to gain a few ideas? Absolutely, because I want to talk about what I learned from COVID and how my own experience has really deepened my understanding of children and adolescents with learning challenges. The populations that I have served. Toby, when did you have COVID? So, I've actually had it several times, but the first time, and this is really where I want to start talking about how it's affected me, is January, so 15 months ago, I got COVID. And that was when quarantining in New York was still a 10-day event. And when the quarantine was over, I noticed that something wasn't right with me. And in what way, Toby? What do you mean? Cognitively, I know physically some ways, but what do you mean by not right? So, definitely physically, but I want to talk about cognitively. So, just to tell you the incident, which made me realize something's going on that I haven't experienced before, I've always considered myself a person who like plans well, is well organized. And I was so excited to get out of my small apartment after 10 days quarantine. And I went grocery shopping. And I bought my groceries, went to the line to cash out, and I realized that I did not have my money with me. Not only did I not have money with me, I didn't have my keys with me, I didn't have my phone with me. I actually left my apartment carrying nothing. You knew you were going shopping, but you didn't have the things you needed. And this has actually never happened to me before. And then it was like one event after another. For example, I couldn't find things anymore. And I would find things in the most unusual places. So, for example, I found my grapes in the refrigerator. And I found a bread knife. I'm sorry, you found your grapes in the refrigerator? I'm sorry. I always put them there. That's okay. I found my grapes in the dishwasher. Gotcha. I knew what you meant. Yeah. And then a bread knife I found in a drawer with clothes. And it just, more things started happening. I started getting lost. I couldn't find my apartment building, or someone helped me find my apartment building. But then I couldn't find my apartment that I'd been living in for many years. I, even though New York I think is pretty easy to navigate in terms of looking at the street numbers, I was, I remember at 89th and Broadway, and I couldn't figure out how to get to 90th and Broadway. Wow. Wow. Now, I know you were in a study in New York for some of these effects and things. Right. Did that, did that help you gain some insights into how we operate in terms of when things are optimal? And then when things are far from optimal, when we can't remember what we need to do, what seemed to be everyday events? So, first of all, I learned from being in a study that, and also going to a neurologist and to the long COVID clinic, that I wasn't alone, that everything I experienced was not unusual. But what I forgot to mention, which was the hardest thing for me, was like my short-term memory was so greatly compromised that I could take a shower and not know that I took a shower. I'd have to look to see if there was water still at the bottom of the tub or my towel was wet, or the same with brushing my teeth. I'd have to feel my toothbrush. So, really simple procedures that are automatic. Daily living skills, right? Right. I didn't even know if I had just carried them through. And sometimes I didn't even remember how to do them. So, like I would hesitate and I think like, all right, I'm holding my toothbrush. What am I supposed to do next? So, I want to bring this back, if it's okay, I want to bring this back again to my understanding of kids. All right. So, I've been working with children with ADHD for many years, so many years such that when I worked in the Department of Neurology in a large pediatric hospital in Toronto, and I was working specifically in what was called the hyperkinesis clinic, which means that the term ADHD had not even been coined yet. Yeah, I know. It had a couple of different names through the decades. Right. So, I'm just indicating to you how many years I've been working with children, you know, who share similar characteristics. And I've learned over the years that many of my students seem, these students in particular, seem to have this idiosyncratic memory such that something happens and honestly, a few seconds later, they have no memory. And I've been in schools where these students have been accused of doing something that was inappropriate. Accused by who, Ocoby? Accused by teachers, by teachers who've seen, who have witnessed an event, and then the student vehemently says, I didn't do it, and I know these children. And so, the teachers are left feeling that these students are not telling the truth, and they've been sort of pushed into a corner, and the only way they can get out of it is to deny it. But I've seen it happen so many times. I've always had this hypothesis that if you think of like our brains, like a filing system is like an old fashioned filing system, a filing cabinet where you pull out of drawers and there's different file folders. So, some people might not be familiar with that anymore, but that's what I grew up with. It's kind of like the library, the card catalogue, right? Right. So, it's like for a typical person, you want to retrieve information that you've stored, and it's almost like this long hand goes in, picks the right file and pulls out the information. But I've always felt for kids with ADHD in particular is the hand goes in, but it doesn't pick the right file efficiently and consistently. So, even though the information has been stored, it's been internalized, these kids can't access it. And so, even something that has happened two seconds before, a minute before, they have no memory of it. And I was now experiencing this, like I said, with taking a shower, brushing my teeth. In fact, it just happened earlier this morning, something happened and I didn't know if I had done something and I had to look for evidence. So, it is true. I mean, you know, children do sometimes not tell the truth. I think sometimes that's a given with adolescents. But I honestly believe that a lot of times these kids really have no memory of what's happened. And so, I actually called a parent that I've been working with her son for a few years, and he was one of these students who was constantly getting into trouble for this. You know, he would do something impulsively that seemed impulsive, then the teacher would get upset and he'd say, I didn't do it. And I just wanted the mother to know that there are times probably when he is feeling pressure to get out of it in some way. So, he's not telling the truth. But I really believe that most of the time he has no memory of what's happened because I was now experiencing this. And the other thing that I started experiencing is, what do I need to do to like function? So, I pulled out all my tools that I've been using with students over the years and I started scaffolding myself. And I can tell you what worked, what didn't work, and also like how I started to feel in terms of, I definitely had some physical challenges, but how I was feeling in terms of my emotional well-being, because that was like greatly affected. Which mimicked, of course, the way students feel when they go to school each day and they have challenges. Like I was now experiencing firsthand. I've always felt that I'm empathic towards students and I've always tried to sort of get inside their head, but now I was living it. And I still am, because I still have long COVID, unfortunately. Yeah, but you are very well adjusted, functioning. I just want to tell our listeners that I've seen you on a professional level with the COVID and what you have still accomplished and what you continue to accomplish and how you positively impact many populations of students in a couple of countries still. And I think, oh, no, I don't say things to be polite. I'm just speaking the truth, Toby. Oh, by the way, we didn't even broach that, that we're both Toby's, right? We just spell it right. And we we introduce ourselves to people like Toby to the second, right? Right. But you made an analogy that I thought a lot of readers can gain a lot from about that file cabinet and that working memory. You know, it's not like you can understand like a math test, right? I got eight out of 12 correct. What's my grade? What which what did I do wrong? Because, you know, working memory, do you actually see it, but you experience it in terms of the behavior. So and you brought up something else that was great when you were talking about the emotional well-being and how that affects the self efficacy, I think of students. So you mentioned that you pulled out tools for scaffolding. What kind of tools have been helping you? So I definitely had to start breaking everything down into steps, so that chunking of information, and then if you would have seen my apartment, it was humorous because I have post-its all over the place. Wait, I just have to stop a minute and to say how well functioning you are, because you actually had a couple of moves during this time and you still managed to have boxes packed and to unpack and to place things. So this scaffolding, I want our listeners to realize is vital for there and that breaking it up into steps. You know, that's one of the inclusion principles that we've been speaking. So I actually created checklists for myself and I wrote them in the past tense, like each item, because it just helped me psychologically to see that I had to check it off and say that it was completed. It wasn't enough for me just to have the checkmark. I found, let's say there was something on the checklist. I put the towel away instead of put the towel away. It just helped me psychologically. I love that. I love that feeling of accomplishment. I love it. Right. And again, I learned this through trial and error. The other thing that was really important to me, which still is, is like I write things down. I also put things in my phone, but I actually write things down because there is enough evidence based research to show that that practice does help with memory, the physical act of writing it down. So I write it down and I do put things in my phone, but I also color coded things like what that that helped me. So I color coded like different like procedures was one color and I actually had to break down certain acts. I'm not even going to tell you what they are, because it's embarrassing to say that I didn't know how to do them. Nothing is embarrassing because you are sharing things to help others. So everything again, I couldn't I couldn't remember sometimes how to brush my teeth. There's a lot of steps to that. You know, when you think about right, we take for granted so much and we don't realize what what brings to mind and what you're sharing is your perspective. And that I think cemented to your strong special education background has enabled you to spin this into something positive, which is what we always say, concentrate on the positive to then realize the steps involved. And it's never told me you have something else going on here because it's not just about you, but you turned your experiences with covid, which were far from fun, into something that said, how can I help others? I'm sorry if I if I cut you out for that with that. No, it's never I mean, one of the things that I want to say and you said it when you said the positive is like I I've always used self-talk, especially doing math over the years. Like it's really helped me with all the steps. So that was that's critical to self-talk because I'm also talking myself through the steps. I'm also doing affirmations because again, talking about the students having long covid, it's invisible. I mean, some of the physical things aren't, but like what I'm talking about in terms of my cognition being compromised, it's definitely invisible. And so people don't realize that. And so they have these expectations. So I want to talk about some of the emotional side to this is the anxiety that comes with knowing that you're going to screw things up each day. Right. I'll be honest, I have a perfectionist streak. So now I'll be long covid without covid. It's a given no day is perfect. Just keep that in mind. Right. But but I think about these kids. I remember many years ago, Rick Lavoie, he's a well-known educator in the United States. Right. Right. Fat city when the chips are down. So anyways, I remember going to one of his workshops many years ago and he was talking about that. We all have like poker chips. And for a neurotypical individual, your pockets are pretty full during the day. You've already earned all these poker chips and there's opportunities for you to to gain more poker chips. It could be in school because you did well in an assignment. It could be in your personal life because a relationship is going well. But when you think about kids going to school with learning challenges and it could be because of learning disabilities, ADHD, it could be because of anxiety. It could be a host of it could be a comorbidity, a combination. You're already going with a deficit of poker chips. All right. And during the day, when you do have these challenges, because I now know it, you get yourself into different kinds of trouble. Because sometimes you can't navigate physically from one got to get from one place to the next. You're not sure how to tackle a problem, complete a task. So you're losing chips. Right. So that creates anxiety. The knowledge that you're going to go through the day and there's going to be screw ups and you're going to get yourself in trouble. And for students, a lot of times that's what the teacher who thinks that your behaviour is intentional, the inappropriate behaviour is intentional or you're not telling the truth because you did. They saw you do something like push a student and you just said you didn't push the student because you can't remember that you did it or you went down the wrong staircase or something like that. So it creates anxiety that you have to deal with. And then along with the anxiety and the fact that, as I said, for long COVID it's invisible comes depression. Like they often go hand in hand. And so now you've got students and myself dealing with the learning challenges, the angst of knowing you're going to screw up in some way. You're going to get yourself in trouble. Someone's going to call you out on something. You yourself are going to judge yourself harshly. And then you start feeling depressed about this. Each day, there's going to be a possibility of losing more poker chips, like talking as you're talking. I'm thinking about a child, let's say an adolescent with anxiety and depression and which a lot of our students felt the effects of COVID, whether they had COVID or not, because they weren't with their peers. And then all these emotions, and then, you know, you have to learn how to solve an algebraic equation with two variables, which is not in your prior knowledge. So that is seemingly something that's going to spiral more and more. So all of these emotions that you were experiencing is comparable to what you just said about visible versus hidden disabilities. And COVID isn't always visible and ADHD isn't always visible either, with or without it. And also, this also gets you into all the social challenges, too, right, which I was also experiencing. The one thing I forgot to mention, too, is, again, what a lot of these students have is like slow, like my processing is really slow now. And so a lot of times someone's moved on and I'm still processing what someone has said. So I think about kids with central auditory processing, language impairments, because all of this, like I've been experiencing and, you know, you ask people to repeat things. But even so, I've gone into schools with long COVID, right, because I'm functioning as best I can. And I've sometimes seen an altercation between two students and I'm processing and someone, another staff member has moved in and intervened. And myself, I feel like they probably think, like, why didn't I attend to that? But the truth is, by the time I processed it to move in, to act, they've already intervened. So, again, that's what happens with students, too, right? The slow processing affects everything. And then academics, social. Yeah, and a lot of times, I know several classrooms I've gone into, so much is about like small group work, cooperative streams, getting along. And we want our learners to be functioning members of society. And that social part of it is so important in terms of the collaboration, because one person doesn't have the answer together in any workforce, you're much stronger. And the same thing with students working as peers in classrooms. Yeah, there's so much group work going on right now. And sometimes we don't think about those dynamics. And going back to this, what I was talking about, slow processing is that students don't necessarily have the patience to wait for someone to catch up or they don't want to repeat. It's like, I think about, for example, there's this dance that goes on between people in different ways. And let's say you and I are going for a walk and you go faster. I don't think that's possible, Toby, on an average of 40,000 steps. I know that. But let's suppose you went faster. I would either speed up or I would say, Toby, I need you to slow down, right? So what I'm saying is we know that as adults and when we're working with kids, we sort of know that dance. And that's why, for example, kids, let's say with on the autism spectrum, do better with adults because they know that we're going to slow down for them. We're going to pace ourselves or we know that they're talking about something that they're passionate about and we're going to let them go on a little bit longer than someone else. But for kids working in groups that are having, let's say, slow processing problems or they're on the spectrum, the other kids in the group aren't going to do the dance in the same way we as adults are going to do the dance, so to speak, with kids. So so something for teachers to think about with all this group work to to think it's there's like another perspective to have. I agree that that's definitely important. You mentioned several things here and I write things down, too. So I wrote a couple of notes here because I don't remember either until I write something down as well. And I think that goes back to another inclusion principle that I often speak about. Is that concrete, representational and abstract? And sometimes words are abstract. Absolutely right. So but you mentioned several strategies that I wrote down, just a few. And tell me what I missed. You spoke about the pacing is important. You spoke about the scaffolding and listening to students behavior in terms of slowing down, not to the point that you are exaggerating, but you are giving it at a point that people have time to store it and pull the file they need. You also spoke about discrete task analysis and visuals. You spoke about a lot of visuals such as the checklist and the and I didn't even write these down, but you spoke also about positive affirmations. Can we just stay a moment and maybe talk a little bit more about those positive affirmations? Because I love positive energy and I find that that helps everyone, whether they have an IEP, COVID or not. Right, so some of it, so you definitely have touched on all these things that have helped me. So one of the other things, again, talking about being positive is that I started writing down what I was thankful for to try to reframe things. And so definitely I started keeping a gratitude journal. And I realized, like a lot of kids aren't going to keep a gratitude journal, especially a lot of kids have challenges writing, getting their ideas down. Why couldn't they speak it into a microphone? So that's what I was going to say. There's different ways of doing it, right? Also, you can give them prompts like the gratitude. So I just created my own gratitude journal. But then because my own children knew that I was struggling, they each bought me different gratitude journals. And some of them had prompts like, I love like, what's your favorite color? So, for example, mine is green. So think about some green things that, you know, you like. That is wonderful, I love that strategy. Right, or another prompt is think about the sensation of touch, like, name five things that you really like to touch. Those are all things that you can show gratitude towards. And we know that when you show gratitude, it makes you feel more positive, happier. So even when I've had even when I've had kids come to my office over the years where the teachers are feeling overwhelmed, and they'll send a student to my office, I've always said to them, you can tell me something negative, but you also then have to tell me three positive things. And sometimes I have to, and sometimes I have to provide the prompts to help them. I mean, even in the office there with doing this, they might need scaffolding in terms of thinking about positive things. But again, I'll allow one negative to three positives. That is just a perfect way of going with it. And that also goes with a few other things that we were talking about. And that's also people's strengths. What do you like? What makes you feel good, whether it's the color green or maybe seeing a movie or a different Netflix series? I know we've spoken about several that are on our radar and also something else that was important. And that's another principle that we often ignore, because we're always a lot of times in a hurry as teachers. We're always in a hurry to do things that we don't realize that we have to stop and smell the roses literally and figuratively. And the sensory elements. I'm going into a class next week and we're doing a sensory walk and it's a writing exercise, but they have to hear things. They have to see things. They have to touch different things that we'll be doing. And then they're going to write something about it. It's not something extra. It's not something that teachers don't have the time for. But we know that that's like just that's a great strategy for writing like a poem. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And and let me ask you a question. And I think I know that and I think our listeners do, too. What do you think kids would remember more if I showed them lovely slides or if they actually went for that walk? Yeah, well, you know, like definitely going for the walk, that's going to stick with them. I was just going to say the other thing that sticks with me, which is the same with students. That's so important is relationships, right? Throughout all of this positive relationships that have made all the difference for me because I talked about the anxiety and the depression and there are different ways to deal with that. But we know that students, too, it's like the most important thing is to develop a relationship with a student. You know, Toby, we both have worked with a lot of different populations of students and I always found the toughest part was a lot of our students. Don't have positive relationships with people. Sometimes a lot of our students are in families that embrace so much of what they're doing and give them positive affirmations. And then there are several students we meet that experience trauma in the home, in their neighborhood, in their lives. Nothing that they ever asked for, but something that, unfortunately, in their little lives, in terms of age, they have to deal with. And sometimes, you know, research always says we can't change things, but we can be that positive person in a student's life as a professional. So would you mind expanding upon what you were saying? So first of all, I think it's really important to validate students. So when you're validating, you're not agreeing, but you're really acknowledging that you're listening to that student. And validating could be simply rephrasing what they just told you, but you do it in a way that try to match their affect in some way, leaning in. So they feel that you're with them there and their defenses, they'll drop their defenses when they feel you're there with them. And so that's what I'm saying. Validating is really important before you even move into like the next part of developing a relationship is obviously whatever you can do to find out what a child's interests are. I mean, I believe in a strength based approach, but in the beginning, you might not know what those are, that student might not even know what they are. Maybe they haven't been revealed because of, you know, layers of, like you said, trauma or other things happening. But you want to find out what a child's concern is. All behavior is a form of communication. So I think it's really important to find out and ask children, like I remember this as many years ago, I had a student, it was Toronto, it was winter. Winter in Toronto, give us temperature for the listeners. Oh, actually, it's today is the second day that it's warm. I'm excited, but it's getting cold, cold again next week. Back to the month of April, but April has been a tricky month in a few places, right? So I had a student on the spectrum and teachers came to me and they said he won't go outside like it was recess and he wouldn't go outside. And I said, what do you mean? Well, he won't put his boots on. I told him he can't go outside without his boots because we had a huge snowfall and he can't wear sneakers outside. So they got into this power struggle. And I said to the teacher, I'm just curious, did you ask him why he wouldn't put his boots on? And I'm not I'm not accusing the teacher of anything here. I recognize, you know, they have 20 other students. There's a lot going on, like try getting young kids into snow suits, 20 odd students in a short period of time. But I'm just telling you what happened. So the teacher hadn't thought of asking. And again, it's probably because she was so busy with all the stuff that was going on in the hall. But I had the luxury because I did of being able to go to the student and saying to him, I'm you know, I'm just wondering how come you're not putting your boots on? What's going on here? And he said to me, well, I have a big hole on the bottom of my boot and the snow's going to get in. And he turned over his boot. And again, he's on the spectrum. He did not think of sharing that. So we got a plastic bag. We we told him we were going to call his parents and let them know because they would be able to remedy that with him. And in the meantime, how about we put a plastic bag inside the boot? We tried it out and that would cover up the hole. So your feet wouldn't get wet, and he said, great, and he went outside and did that child just smile. And you taught him a strategy that helped him because you listened to what he needed. But but it was more than listening. I asked him what his concern was. Communication, right? He didn't think to say it. That's what I'm saying. Like he was on the spectrum. He didn't think to say, I have a hole in my boot. So sometimes you have to probe. But we always go with what our concern is, the teacher's concern. And I get it. I honestly get it. She had to get the class out for recess and she didn't have anyone else to help her at the moment. We always get to that pace sometimes in the classroom. We want to do next where our eyes are vigilant on so many different students, but we can't lose sight of the student such as that student on the spectrum. I think all students are on the spectrum in terms of different things that they need. And we all exist with different rays of sunshine, too. I have some icons in my Inclusion Coaching. And it talks about, yes, I'll just tell our listeners their structure, awareness, compassion, professional collaboration and reflection. And you've spoken about all five of these today. But I'm going to ask you, maybe could you pick one or two that you think are our most important takeaways for our listeners? I think I was going to say reflection is really important. And you can start this with really young kids. There's different ways. You can make it very concrete with a happy face and maybe another picture that is not so happy. And you can say, how did this make you feel? And they can choose which icon just to start thinking about what the experience was like for them. But I want to talk about, again, going back to ADHD and reflection, what makes me think why I picked this is that so many times we've had children who. We've had to target behaviour and shape it, and sometimes we've had to come up with like a behaviour chart. And you can read so many different articles and books and go online for the different steps, you know, to do a functional behavioural analysis or someone else in your school's done it or another professionals come and observe the student over a period of time. And then they create like this chart. But what I have discovered is the reflection piece is missing so much. So in other words, the child comes to you at the end of the day to the teacher or to me in the office, and they want me to see that they got two or three checks and then I have to sign off on it or their teachers have signed off it. But what's really critical is that reflection piece is saying to the student. And sometimes I've asked, I really like home-based reward programs where the parents do the rewarding and they also can do the reflection, like I talked about it. So ask your child, what did they do today that was different than yesterday that they were able to get the three checks? Wow, what a great question. Or today they only got one check, but they really were aiming for three. What do they need to do tomorrow that they didn't do today? In other words, they have to think about, they obviously did something differently that now they're earning rewards. They're meeting the expectation of these targeted goals that are on this chart. But what do they do? And sometimes they're like not aware of it. So you have to help them figure it out. Sometimes, you know, you try to come up with the best educated guesses. Do you think maybe you were talking to yourself like I can do this? I know this is hard, but I can do this. Or maybe someone else was saying that to you. Or maybe you had some visuals around you that you were using as reminders. Or maybe there was some kind of acronym you learned like SNAP, like Stop Now and Plan that you've practiced with a teacher. And that's helped you, right? So if it worked, do it again tomorrow. Or what didn't you do that you know has worked in the past? It's the same thing with like a test. If something didn't work, rushing through a test and not reading all the questions, then don't do that the next time. But what did help you? Maybe slowing down or reading all the questions in advance. So do that again tomorrow. So I find the reflection. So this whole process for myself of like having long COVID, I've had to spend a lot of time reflecting on things that have worked and things that aren't working. And one of the things that has worked, and I just want to put a plug in for this, is that I've actually been practicing mindfulness. I was just going to ask you about that. How do you take care of that person in the mirror? So I was just going to say mindfulness to me is a blessing. It's a skill like anything else. You really have to practice this. It's like learning how to ride a bike. It doesn't happen in one shot, and you have to really practice it and hone this skill, because I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, I tried it doesn't work. Well, first of all, I was on my diet yesterday, and I didn't lose five pounds today. It happens, right? Right. But it's also like you have to find the anchor that works for you. Mindfulness, of course, for anyone who's unfamiliar, is staying present in the moment without judgment. You can't do it wrong. And most people talk about breathing as being their anchor. And there's different ways to practice mindfulness, slowing down your breathing, being more cognizant of when you take an in breath and out breath. There's different ways. But for me, I learned that and again, we have to differentiate with students, too, when we're teaching mindfulness. And I've spoken to teachers about this. My anchor is not breathing. That does not work for me. It actually agitates me when I'm focused on my breathing. So I like to use other senses. I'm a very visual person. So for me, sometimes just staring at an object for gazing at it for 10 seconds and then shifting my gaze or listening to the sounds in my environment. So again, you have to figure out what works for you. There's that reflection piece right? No, that's true, because individuals, we're individuals, whether we are in school learning and we're in elementary, middle or high school or we're adults learning. So I really think that mindfulness should be in every school and every classroom and there is so much compelling scientific evidence to show the benefits. I'm not going to list them now, but there are so many. But when you're talking about mindfulness, it doesn't have to be complicated. No, I said it sometimes it's just listening, stopping and listening to the sounds in your environment. I love it. So I have one final question for you, unless you want to say more to our listeners. No, I'd like to hear your question. OK, here we go. I am now making you the inclusion emperor and you have the power, here's your wand and you have the power, what would you do? And it could be I'm the inclusion emperor in any environment. You could pick Canada, United States, excuse me, the world. What do you do? I think if I was the inclusion emperor, I would start with. I'd start early, first of all. Right, like you can't just put children and I think I'm talking about schools right now, you just can't put typical neurotypical, for lack of a better word, in a classroom with children with challenges and think they're all going to get along. So, so as the inclusion emperor, I would start with the language of inclusion that kids can understand that's age appropriate. So talking to kids about similarities and differences. I would start there. I like that, I like that, and then through similarities and differences, there's no judgment. We're all, we're all at our highest ability level and we all could reach the sky. Toby Franklin, thank you so much for your candid insights and for all of our listeners gaining so much knowledge from you and I have, okay, I told you that was the last question, I have one more. That can be a guest again. Toby Karten, I'd be happy to do that. I love it, thank you listeners, Toby Franklin, thank you so much, everybody will be talking soon. My pleasure, bye. No, they never really knew the kid with the different point of view. Copyright MMXXIII Karten's Inclusive Conversations. Thank you for listening, check out other episodes on all major platforms.