Karten's Inclusion Conversations Podcast

KIC S1E10 How to Differentiate Instruction to Meet the Needs of All Learners Featuring Nichole Kaller

• Toby Karten • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Karten's Inclusion Conversations S1E10 Featuring Nichole Kaller
The conversation with Toby and Nichole centers around the importance of creating a positive and supportive learning environment for all students, regardless of their abilities. This includes setting high expectations, providing necessary support, building relationships with students, using positive reinforcement and encouragement, and giving students choices in their learning. The conversation also emphasizes the importance of proactive social-emotional support, structured routines, differentiated instruction, and using technology to support learning. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the need to create a safe and supportive learning environment that values and meets the needs of all students.

Websites mentioned in the podcast:

#TobyKarten #NicholeKaller #Karten’sInclusionConversations #KIC #Inclusion #InclusionConversations #SELinEducation #InclusiveClassroom #TeacherTalk #EducationMatters #SocialEmotionalLearning #EmpoweringStudents #TeachingStrategies #EducatorsSupportingEducators #InclusiveTeaching #StudentWellbeing #BuildingRelationships #TeachingEmpathy #DifferentiatedInstruction #TeacherInspiration #CAST #UDL 







For more information please visit https://inclusionworkshops.com/

Welcome to Karten's Inclusive Conversations podcast. Hi everybody, welcome to Karten's Inclusion Conversations. I have the pleasure of speaking with a very dynamic teacher and her name is Nicole Kaller. Nicole, I had the pleasure of meeting you at a high school here in New Jersey. And I am so enthralled with your experience as a young educator and how you have really spun so many children's lives into positive experiences. Nicole, could you tell me a little bit about your background? Our listeners would need to know. Yeah, thank you so much for that wonderful introduction, Toby. As you said, I'm Nicole Kaller. I have been a teacher for 12 years, actually. I have a background in biological sciences and my master's in science education. I'm also a board certified behavior analyst, which is very exciting and super useful when it comes to teaching in the classroom. And my experiences have spanned both private school and public school. So I've been in both settings. One in my private school setting was really looking at functional academics, really looking at behavioral changes in students and trying to find how they fit within the community a lot. Whereas my public school is more traditional public school, right? Like how do we make sure our students are mastering the content that we're providing to them, but also how are we making sure that they are exceeding or meeting what the student expectations are of the school? So that's just a little bit about me. Thank you, Nicole. And I love the way you phrased that, not only needing, but exceeding. And that's what I so admire about you, is that you set the bar up high and you figure out not that the student can't do it, but they can't do it yet. And then you take the steps to make that happen. So what does success look like in a public school for a student, let's say in high school? Yeah, well, success, Toby, is really gonna depend on who we're talking about because success is gonna vary from every single one of the students that you have within your classroom. So if I'm in a gen ed situation, maybe success for a majority of my class is reaching a B plus or higher in terms of grade. Maybe that's my goal and my success I'm looking at. But for some students who might be having a tough day or a tough month or a tough year, showing up to class could be a success. And we say, yes, you're here, amazing, let's keep doing this, right? If I'm looking at a different population where I have a lot of behavioral management that needs to be done, maybe success for those students is awesome. You sat in your seat for two minutes, fantastic. Let's build off of this. This is great. I've had a lot of students who I've seen different goals I've needed to have. And one student in particular comes to mind where we had a really big challenge, Toby, on getting the student to transition to different classes. And so just walking through that threshold was a huge problem and a huge step when that could happen. I was thinking like racking my brain with a student, what could I possibly do to help the student come into the classroom? Nicole, you're very good at applying the inclusion principles of that step-by-step, what it looks like, and see discrete task analysis to make it happen. And we actually did a presentation together for ASPD, correct? And for association of student curriculum development and for CEC I'm involved with. And all the organizations, all the evidence-based practices are very big on something, a four letter word, that is not a bad word. And that word is data. And I even teased you once because I called you the data queen, okay? So tell us, what's data? What's data? Why is that a factor here? Yeah, so data is where we're going to be tracking the success of our students. If we don't have something that is a concrete analysis going on in front of us, so we can just be super subjective in how we handle a situation, even just how we feel that day could influence what we think is going on in the classroom. But if I have my objective data in front of me, this particular student performed this well in this time, and now I see that I have an increase within that particular target behavior or target academic goal that I'm looking at. So data is really the start of what we need to look at when we're trying to see how our students are functioning in the classroom and how they're growing in what we want them to learn. Yeah, and I like the way you said that because my takeaway from that was that we track success, not students. Students are on pigeon-holed. And you mentioned something else about when we were talking about the success as well and the data now too, that it's so individualized, that I from the IEP. And I guess that always comes back to like setting goals and goal setting. So I know you have your ABA and you're very much involved with behavioral analysis and looking at students and progress monitoring, but you do that for academics too with goals, both of them. So do you have any recommendations for maybe some of our podcast listeners about setting goals for students? Yeah, so our goals, I'm sure everyone has heard of creating our SMART goals. So we need to make sure that we have a measurable goal that we want students to actually achieve. So setting like I want the student, if it's a grade, like I want them to be getting 80% on this test. I can measure it, I can see how that progress is coming to get to that. It's gotta be something timely, usually within a marking period, or it could be a week goal. At the end of this week, I want so-and-so to be doing this. And so you can think of anything that is actionable, we could make that into a goal that you would want your students to be working on. So when you set goals for students, and especially you're working now with the adolescent population, and when we were getting the podcast, you mentioned two things. You mentioned functional goals as well as content goals. Can you tell our listeners, maybe give an example of each of those? So a functional goal would be more about how a student is living within your classroom, or within their life. So okay, are they on time? Are they organized? Are they able to put their homework in some sort of system and then follow through with that? So we're looking more at the functional aspects of something that people would need. Sometimes people call them the soft skills that someone would need versus the hard skills. So how are they interacting with you as a functional person? Are they giving you eye contact? Are they meeting the tone that you have? Are they speaking up loud enough so you can hear them? These are all the functional things that you can think of. Okay, if you're gonna be a successful person in the world, what is it that you're gonna need to do? Versus our content goals, the content goals are looking specifically at what do you want to impart on them? What do you want them to actually walk away in your subject knowledge having learned more or applied it in some way, right? So I work in biology classrooms, physics classrooms, chemistry classrooms. So if I was looking at biology, I would say, hey, how much has this student learned about genetics? Do they know about a genotype and a phenotype? And then can they make a punnett square to see like what kind of offspring would be there? So those would just be some of those differences between functional versus content. Thank you, because that was a great summary of that. And while you were speaking, you made me think of several of the inclusion principles. On my website, inclusionworkshops.com, you'll see a tab that says inclusion principles. And I just have this one that talks about prior knowledge, pre-interpost planning, different visuals and things like that. You made me think of the supports you give your students, whether it's functional goals or academic, and like some of the visual supports. And I've seen you do things like covalent bonds, ionic bonds, and you set up the students for such success with that. But is there one of the inclusion principles that you think is important that our listeners should try to apply for either functional or academic that you think are non-negotiable? Oh man, this list that you have here, there's so many good things on it, Toby. And if you like really have caught my eye, that, let me see. So if you're scrolling down some of these, so if I was gonna kind of like rank these, what is it first that I would want to pull on for my students? I would say number 10, what you got there, increasing their self-esteem. I think that is one thing that as a teacher, we really need to be able to do with our students is make sure that they feel we can believe in them, that we are aware that they are capable of learning and just figuring out how is it that we're now providing them the opportunities to take that information in and then give it back to us. So for that, for me, as a teacher, I always want my students to feel like they can and have those successes in the classroom, even if I have to modify the amount of tasks that they're doing so that they feel successful, like, hey, you're gonna do two out of the five, perfect. You did it, amazing. Now the next day, we're gonna do three out of five and just build off of that. So that one was really good and I see modeling too. Modeling is really, really important, especially if we're talking about our special ed population. So being able to see what happens is often a really great learning tool for students to then copy and imitate, right? Imitation is very important when we talk to our students. If our students are able to imitate us, they're able to now understand what they're doing and they can show that understanding by doing so. And I don't know, I love 14, relating to students' lives. I love it because, and I think that's probably from my background in the private school world where everything I was doing was about them, my students, not being with me anymore. Everything I was doing was for them to be out in the world and I think that's really, really important. Even now when I'm in my public school setting in generalized science, right, trying to bring the material to students' lives. Everything is related to what we're talking about. In my physics class, we are living physics every single day, right? Why are we not floating into space? In biology, you can't get more real than that. It's about what's going on inside, right? How are we compared to our parents or our siblings? You know, even chemistry, everything is chemistry. So I think being able to relate what we're trying to do and make sure our students are aware of that. We might think we're making aware, but are we really? Like we need to be very, very specific and say, hey guys, this is where you're gonna see this in your lives or this is where we're gonna apply it. And like thinking, you know, right now I keep bringing up in biogenetics because that's a unit that we're currently on. I'm like thinking in the future, like genetics, one day these individuals might start families. Like that's gonna be important to think about for their own lives or their own children, right? It might not be important to them right now, but it could be in the future. So I think out of those lists, Toby, those things jump out to me as really important. I totally agree with you, Nicole. And you mentioned something that also goes with collaboration and communication, not just with the people you work with. Cause I've seen you, you work with co-teachers as well and you work with parents as well and you have everything set up in a way that invites success and it's not just what we do, but what we get the students to realize that they could do too. So thank you for mentioning those points. And I also was very much impressed by your management skills in terms of your organization and being able to figure out how to get things like, I don't know, put your ducks in a row, you know, how do you do that? What recommendations in your dozen plus years experience would you recommend for the listeners? Yeah, so there is so much that we can do to help our students and in our classroom dynamic function the way that we want it to function, right? A safe learning environment where everyone feels supported and students are on task with the stuff that we're trying to have them work on. The very first thing I can think of is for everybody to think about is what do you do right as your students are walking into your classroom? The one of the most important and easy and simple things that you can do is actually greet every single one of your students by name. Hello, good morning, high five, fist pound, how are you? That is evidence-based practice that actually shows students who are greeted by their teacher at the door. This is with nothing else, just at the door, will actually get to task faster and stay on task longer than for the individuals who have not been greeted at the door. So very first thing in your classroom, the first thing you wanna do is greet them by name, eye contact, and that's going to actually immediately start turning any behavioral problems around, right, because our students are seeing, like they're getting attention, right? A lot of the times we have misbehavior or behaviors that we would not like because of attention, right, and maybe the only way they're getting attention is by a teacher, you know, raising their voice at them or in some way. So greeting, if student wants attention, boom, right there, you got given the attention. You're showing them, I see that you're here, let's get to work. That is really good. One thing that I also like to do is provide choices when possible. And I feel like teachers who are listening are like, oh God, the choices, but how? I have to get through content. We have this plan. But choices, we can't think of it as a huge thing. Like you're taking it, like do you wanna take a test or an essay? No, but we can embed choices in much smaller formats in order to try to give students more self-management over their day. Hey, you know, what color marker would you like to use to highlight or something very small? It doesn't have to be a huge change in your curriculum or your content. Even choice of, hey, do you wanna do all the even numbers or all the odd numbers? And give them that. You pick whatever four questions you want on this. And nothing needs to be changed besides you're giving them some authority over their own decisions on what they wanna learn and show you what they learned for that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, those things you're seeing all go into that heading of being proactive, you know, that greet at the door, a smile, a smile is very powerful. And please respond to that. You might be the first person that smiles at that student. And that goes a long way. And also you're empowering them at the same time. And you're giving them that feedback that's positive. And that relates a lot with the SEL. And those, you know, social, emotional learning. Can you speak about that in a moment or two or what you have found to be productive with you, our learners? Yeah, so really that seems like the big buzzword of the current few years. What is social emotional learning? Are we meeting our students socially, emotionally? And so- You know what, Nicole? It's a buzzword. But I've also heard people say, we don't have time for it. Yeah, exactly. But again, these are things where, I think it goes back to my choices. I think sometimes we get in our head like, oh my God, we have to do all this extra stuff. And as teachers and educators, yes, we have so much on our plate. It's kind of crazy to know how much is on our plate at all moments. But for some of these things, it's not about doing anything extra. It's about making sure or changing very small things within our class. For instance, part of social emotional learning could be greeting our students by the door. They see that they are in a very safe environment. They've got you there to support them. That could be one way. Checking in with the students and say, hey, how's your day going? That's social emotional learning. We're not gonna get through to our students to learn content unless they are feeling safe. We go back to like Maslow's hierarchy. They need to feel safe. They need to be fed. First students are not, if they're hungry, they're not gonna be learning. They're gonna think, oh my gosh, my stomach is growling. I'm so hungry, I have a headache. These are the things that need to be established first. And so we can do that very simply. Saying hi, are you okay? Just checking on someone if they feel really upset. Like I've had so, part of my job, I also feel like I'm teacher and also counselor. A lot of the time I have students, they get really upset. I gotta talk to them. But being able to be there for them and say, hey, do you need to talk to me? Do you need to write something down? Would you like to go check in with a counselor? And that is also part of social-emotional learning, tying it in, making sure that they are okay in your class in order to learn. Yeah, and you want them to know the Punnett squares, but you also want them to be able to feel good about themselves as they're doing it. Because a lot of students, they say, I can't do this. I don't know how to do this. Nobody cares if I do it. And that piece is so powerful. I have some icons here I'm showing you. One is a ruler for structure. One is a heart for compassion. One is a brain for awareness. One or two hands together for collaboration. And the last is a mirror for reflection. Would you kindly select one or two of these and relate it to some of the learning that needs to be for some students in place for them to succeed, not only with their grades, but as you said, functionally in life as well? Yeah, so one thing that jumps out for me is the structure. So this, I almost feel like this is under a universal design for learning. Like our classrooms need to be set up with a routine. We need to have a routine and it's going to help every single student that we have, whether they are a special education student or not. Having students know what to expect when they come into your classroom is setting them up for success. They know, they have stuff organized. They know where to put things, where to find material. And as Toby, you mentioned, it's going to empower them more. So we have that structure and routine. They will feel a lot more comfortable in the classroom to take over their own learning. And not every home is structured the same way as the school, but I guess that's okay with that. You mentioned UDL, Nicole, and you also mentioned emotional check-ins and things like that as part of the structure. So what we will do for the podcast is we'll put some recommended sites that maybe the listeners could go to, to explore more. And you mentioned Maslow. You know, all of these are evidence-based practices that you seamlessly, students don't even know that there's evidence-based practices, but you know because you're keeping the data and it's part of your structure. So thank you for picking that structure. Is there any other one that you'd want to talk about or? I mean, they're all really good. And I can think about how we talked in the beginning, how our success is so individualized. For this, I can also feel very individualized. Like I can think of a student I had in the past where awareness was actually super, super important. Awareness of how far away is someone standing? How far away is a person standing to you? Being aware of, oh, this behavior kind of is a little bit odd. If I'm in society, I might get some look. Someone might be scared by this. So for some of my students, that awareness is very important and it can even start within the classroom of saying, hey, do you know? One thing I'm sure that I'm facing and I'm sure a lot of other people are facing is cell phone awareness. Or like, are you aware that you're using your phone right now? And when I check in my students, a lot of times it's just such a habit in their head, right? Like they're just like, oh, I just gotta check this. That they were like, oh, they didn't even realize that that wasn't something that they should be doing in that moment. And so there's a learning opportunity. So going back to like, how do you set up your classroom? It has structure and routine. Making sure, okay, we're gonna learn how to use our technology appropriately because now we go back to thinking about our future. When they are not with us anymore, they're gonna have a job. That's where we hope they have a job. They can be active members of society in some way. You're in a job interview, you can't be on your phone. That just is not showing any professionalism. Our soft skills that we're talking about, our functional skills. You know, you're on the job. You're looking at your phone. Again, like that's, what are you tasked with? So really combining the content we're trying to teach our students, the functionality of the behaviors that they need to be working wonderful members of our society are really important within our classrooms. Yeah, and it's funny, when you were saying they're always looking at their phones, you remind me, you remind me, there is something called remind.com. Yeah. And it, you know, have you ever used it? I've heard of people using it. I've heard of it, I've not used it myself, Toby. So you'd have to explain a little bit more. The funny part of this is that it was designed by someone whose sibling forgot to do assignments, but he was always looking at his phone. So it's this app, remind.com, that the teacher would be able to send to each of their students things that they should remember, or it can be sent to families as well. And the beauty of the teachers, if you're listening, is that the origin of where it's coming from is not shared with the student, but the message is shared. So you're capitalizing on the student's strength of always looking at their phone sometimes. And that in a way, it goes back, I think, to the UDL, different types of representation, different types of engagement, different types of ways that students show what they know, multiple expressions, you know? And that moves them forward. And choices don't only just have to be for the kids with IEPs either, I think. I think all of these principles that you're saying related to life, how many times as a teacher have you heard a student ask the question, is this gonna be on the test? Oh, a lot. Exactly. That's such a myopic focus, right? Like that's a very short part of the lives, sure. You need this for this test right now, but what are we looking at more broadly? We're looking at your overall skills. Like, do you have study skills? Can you study? Can you figure out how can you apply this information? Can you comprehend the messages and the wording that's on your paper? Yeah, it's like so much, Zoe. I know, and you know, Nicole, it's so funny, because when they used to ask me that question in the classroom, I'd go, yes, it's on the test of life. And they'd look at me going, and then there was no response, you know? I mean, yeah, one day, what sometimes kids view what teachers say is meaningless until it's not, and then all of a sudden they go, oh, so that, yeah. And funny, I mean, I've seen you do math skills with students who are also lower functioning, and I remember one thing you did, I loved it, Nicole, it was elapsed time, and you asked what chores does the student do, things, whether it was emptying the dishwasher, when did you start, when did you finish, and looking at themselves, but at the same time, putting the academics with functional behavior and interest. So kudos for you for making that so seamless, thank you. Thank you, Zoe, thanks. Yeah, of course, and you know what? I have one more question for you, all right? Yeah, sure. You didn't know this, but I am now officially giving you a wand. You are now the inclusion emperor, and you can make inclusion perfect for our country, our world. What do you think is part of that as the emperor? What would one or two of your first decrees be? Yes, as emperor of inclusion, I think one really, really big thing that I would start out and tell everybody is that we have to understand that you cannot take a student's behavior personally, cannot take it personal, and it's hard to do, especially if you're a new teacher, it's hard, right, because you put so much effort in and you're like, okay, this is gonna be great, we take so much time to try to perfect a lesson, and we get into class, and we have students having meltdowns or being upset, but we have to know, and it does come with some of that experience in the classroom, we have to know that it is not personal. And I think that if we take that, we can now step back from those moments where we feel really emotional about a student who might not be listening or following direction, and then we can see it for what it is. It could be having nothing to do with you, it could be something that happened with a friend, it could be something that happened in the house, right, their home, it could be something that happened in another class, and it's not personal, and I think if we can do that, then we can continue to effectively and compassionately reach our students. So that's the first thing I would say, don't take the behavior personal, and then we can work to the best of our ability, we can be the best educator we can be for that student. Nicole, you are the best educator, I'd love to clone you, and I hope our listeners can be many, many insights from our conversation. I thank you so much for being part of Inclusion Conversations, and hey, one more question. Yeah. Wanna be a guest again? Sure, I love it, this has been great, Toby. Yes, yes, thank you so much, Nicole Kaller.["The Kid With the Different Point of View"]["The Kid With the Different Point of View"] Copyright MMXXIII Karten's Inclusive Conversations. Thank you for listening. Check out other episodes on all major platforms.