KIC S3E5 ""Nurturing Potential: Education's Role in Community Empowerment"" Featuring Takia Logan Round 2

In Round 2, Toby and Takia’s conversation focuses on the importance of community engagement and empowerment, highlighting the critical role of education and mentorship in uplifting individuals, especially within underserved communities. It discusses the value of providing guidance and resources to support personal and professional growth, emphasizing the power of collective action and the impact of nurturing future generations through education and community support.

Key Notes:
ERI - https://www.acsssd.net/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=3808275&type=d&pREC_ID=2464423 

CGOs Curriculum Graphic organizers - https://inclusionworkshops.com/inclusion-tools/ 

Frayer Model - https://dpi.wi.gov/sites/default/files/imce/ela/bank/6-12_L.VAU_Frayer_Model.pdf 

KWL charts - https://www.theteachertoolkit.com/index.php/tool/kwl 

Books Mentioned:
"Monster" by Walter Dean Myers - Used for discussions on perception and influences.

"Thank You, Ma'am" by Langston Hughes - Discussed in terms of being considered a criminal versus a child experiencing hard times.

"Blue Bottle Mystery" by Kathy Hoopman - About a student with autism, used to help another student relate to his own experiences.

#TobyKarten #TakiaLogan  #Karten’sInclusionConversations #KIC #Inclusion #SocialEmotionalLearning #InclusiveEducation #TeachingStrategies #EducationalInnovation #StudentEngagement #TraumaInformedTeaching #SEL #EducationalBooks #TeachingResources #EmotionalSupportInEducation

For more information please visit https://inclusionworkshops.com/

Transcript

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Hi, listeners, we are at KIC podcast, Karten's Inclusion Conversations. And I am so happy that I have someone here for the second round. And that person is Takia Logan. She is a seasoned educator in the field of special education, who has worked with different populations of students with exceptionalities. And Takia Logan is currently working with emotional regulation impairment with students who demonstrate certain ways of regulating themselves and need better ways to do that. Did I phrase that a little bit politely, Takia? Absolutely. Absolutely. And what is the age group that you currently work with, Takia? I work with the high school age students. So I have students that are in grades 9 through 12. And these students in grades 9 through 12, would you consider that they're in an inclusive environment? Well, these guys are in the highest level of restriction currently because I was a self-contained or am a self-contained program. So they had been removed from the general population for the majority of the day and received most of their content instruction with me. Now that's something that our listeners need to realize that inclusion is in a blanket. And sometimes students need different things at different times or a combination of services. So you're working with a very difficult population in terms of understanding sometimes what's not in front of you, but you need to see and understand behind the scenes, whether it's the home environment or maybe they're smiling, but you know, it's like an iceberg and things can be underneath that you're not aware of. So Takia, what have you found in this year that you're working with them that works better than others? Or maybe you want to share a fun success story that you've had from this year? One of the things that working with this population, I usually call them the invisibly disabled. Invisibly disabled. They are typically affected. Most people would see them and not necessarily presume or assume that there's any disability present, that there's any needfulness present, that there is any form of a delay present. And that affect alone can make it challenging to engage them because their responses, their responses to stimuli may be out of order with their age range or out of order with their peer range. You'll say, oh my. And you're in your classroom. Like, did it take all that? Well, for them, yes. So one of my more, if I can dare say it, one of my most happy things that I was able to do here was to make room for them in the discipline code. They're not bad and they're not trying to be bad. One of my favorite comments by Ross Green is that no student comes to school wanting to be bad. I love that, yes. You know, no student goes into the classroom looking to be disruptive. Every student goes in wanting to contribute, wanting to engage, but may or may not have the full cadre of skills that they need to engage appropriately. So when we're assigning discipline, we need to ask ourselves, is that student really aware of what I mean when I say behave? Do they have the skills in that moment to produce the behavior that I'm expecting? What am I asking them to replace? What is the behavior that they're currently projecting? What are they getting from that behavior? Because there's a reason they're maintaining it. So it was a really big positive this year to be able to have the administration and the building to understand these relationships with these students. They're not looking to get under your skin. They're looking to find a common language to communicate their needs to you. And that common language sometimes could be with words and sometimes it could be with actions appropriate and what might be considered inappropriate. And especially a very tough age also is the high school level, something that is very important. A few things. First off, that invisible, like no one would say in a wheelchair, why don't you just get up and stand the right way? Why would someone say to somebody who needs to act a different way, can't you just behave? And what you mentioned was that me and special ed have a whole bunch of jargon, FBA, functional behavioral assessment to determine what's the reason? Why is the student, whether they're aware of it or not for that behavior, you want to maybe talk a little bit more about that, what you've noticed with this age group? In the high school, there's a ton and my son is one of them. There's a ton of stigma that's attached to getting too much attention, getting too much help. And that sense of being typical, that sense of owning their own reputation. So being in a self-contained program already undermines that sense of efficacy for the student. We're fighting to encourage them, once they get across the door, that what is happening in here is not only in your best interest, but it's going to be designed around what you need. So now that means you got to tell me what you need. So we're asking students to now move away from a preferred model of communication, which could be even at the high school level, throwing things, calling out, using expletives in place of other more appropriate adjectives. Now we're asking them, give me a language that we can all speak together so we can get to where the need itself is and find a positive way to meet that. I've worked with a wonderful, wonderful paraprofessional and we started to really use the term currency. What is the currency here that we can exchange in order for you guys to feel rewarded, accepted and affirmed in this space? And we found that edibles weren't always the answer. People are quick to throw chips at them. It wasn't always a sticker. They did help. Don't get me wrong, they did help. But it also helped to have them say or demonstrate what they preferred. And we were able to leverage a lot of their requests into positive, rational, natural incentives that they would learn to work for. And it was great. We always want to look at inclusion as the first option of service because you mentioned something which is a very important statement that just the fact that they're in a self-contained classroom undermines their self-efficacy. So what opportunities do they have to be with others that maybe are not in a self-contained class? My school, just to clarify, they actually play music at the end of a lot of days. So my principal is in the process of announcing the song. But well, maybe our listeners need to hear this song if it's going to be an uplifting one. Our students, that was another thing that I introduced to them was that... Wait a second, what song is this? I have absolutely no idea. It's something from a cartoon. Is this supposed to be like a booster, like a smiler? Only this could happen as we're recording it. I love it. He does it at the end of almost every day, mostly Fridays, but he will find a reason to play a song. Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Do your students respond to the music? The overall population does, and you see smiles on their faces and they're looking for, what is he going to do today? He's quite the character, this guy. So relationships, trying to get smiles on people's faces that maybe things are going on in their lives that are not smilers at the same time. So back to that question, so how do they get to interact with others who are not in self-contained classes, more restrictive environments? Students are assigned electives and their electives are with the general population. And we try to provide them with a moderate amount of support, not too much. We didn't want to be in the classroom, the paraprofessional didn't follow them to the classrooms and she did not attend their cafeteria period with them either. So they got their lunchtime to themselves and they got their elective time to themselves so that they could learn, we were not there to guard every step, they're still young adults. So choice and mistakes are not limited to students with classifications and documentation. Every child is going to make a choice and every child is going to learn from that choice and learn from those outcomes. And we try to provide them as much natural access to that learning as possible. And you mentioned also about PARAs, I recently did some work with PARAs and one of the main concerns a lot of people have about PARAs or teacher assistance, different districts call them instructional assistance, that help is given but it's not that goldilocks, that right amount of help. It might be too much, which in a way is negating progress. If they're not experiencing what you said before, like learning what to do next, that would be a better decision if someone is always making that decision for them. Right. And having worked with really wonderful paraprofessionals and everybody has their growing pains. I was pretty, not that I'm super old, but I was pretty young when I started and I learned from the older paraprofessionals that, you know what, we will do what we see you tell us to do, you know, and we will follow the lead that you have established. So I learned a lot about transformational leadership just from being in the space, transparency, making mistakes in front of them, demonstrating my humanity and inviting them in with their skill set and their talents into the formation of the learning community. This is just not my classroom. I am not the sage on the stage as much as I would like to be. These paraprofessionals bring observational skills, data collection, interaction, personal connection with these students, and I can't assume the role of expert about these children. So a lot of times it's just a matter of what did you observe that worked? What did you do that worked and how can I replicate that with another student or what else would you like to see us try with another student? And that's important to know that I'm not the keeper of all the knowledge. You're not the keeper of all the knowledge and we value. When I did some training last week with paraprofessionals, it was just amazing to have their receptiveness, to have the knowledge and skills to help the student. And we're thwarted if we don't empower paraprofessionals with that knowledge. And sometimes teachers need to just get them on the path to it and give them strategies they can choose from there, depending upon different situations and look at the responses. It's more eyes in the classroom. I saw your classroom when you had high school level students and it was like a well-oiled machine. Everybody was where they needed to be without hovering over the students because if we want to develop that self-efficacy and self-regulation, we need to put them on the path for it, but we don't need to constantly be hovering over them and pushing them that way, especially kids with emotional needs that require help, but not coddling sometimes with that and looking in the mirror and reflection. So what ways do you think work best with some of your students who have emotional needs? What have you found to be effective that maybe others could duplicate? We created something here in our classroom called Rapid Bonus Trackers, RBTs. What we did was we took a little bit of data about behaviors that we'd observed from the students that were consistent. And while we developed an overall behavior intervention plan to address the larger behavior, we broke it down into the classroom into a single behavior that we could monitor and reward quickly. We had a student who was very fond of his expletives. This child spoke predominantly in four-letter words. So if I get a picture of it, I'll send it to you. We created a chart where he could look and see. We broke the classroom down into 10-minute intervals. And for every 10 minutes, we would watch him. And if he did not keep the data, so if he didn't make any expletives, any outbursts, or make any colorful observations about his peers, in 10 minutes, he earned a starburst or a york peppermint patty or whatever was his preferred edible at the moment. Every time he did it, we put it on the board. So he got connected to these idea that, wait a second. Every time I'm speaking typical standard American English, I get this. And when I don't, I don't get this. And we began to track it and really applaud him at the end of every class period. Way to go, kid. Way to go, kid. Way to go, kid, until we were able to extend it from 10 minutes to 12, from 12 to 15, from 15 to 20, and from 20 to the end of the class period, and inevitably were able to remove the edible and the chart because the student became comfortable in the classroom. I should not be using this language. And we also used visuals. In the classroom, there's a chart that requires students to put their potty language in the potty. Classroom clean. So there were rolls of toilet paper to let them know if it's potty language, keep it in the potty. In the classroom, there's other kind of language you can use. So the rapid bonus trackers were very, very big in giving these children visual and physical and tangible proof and data of when and where and how they were improving. The rapid rate of incentivization, it kept them on board. They kept coming back, kept coming back from where we did it similar with the student who had out-of-seat behaviors. If you want to get out of that seat, every time you raise your hand, you get that. Every time you don't, you don't. And we would watch him for ten minute intervals until he was able to extend almost three to the end of the period. For a single behavior, as opposed to, I want to fix this whole kid right now. It helps them to feel successful and it helps you to feel like you're making, you know, a positive impact on that student's life. And that that has to do with a few things. What you're talking about is that people would say, well, maybe high school if they wouldn't want that. But you know what? I've done adult professional development. I have different types of incentives, whether it's a chocolate lollipop or perhaps an affirmative chip, positive affirmation. It comes in different ways. And sometimes something tangible, then even though it's external, it becomes internal. But we have to take that interim step to make that happen. And then, like you said, that's extinguished and removed, so that's no longer needed. And I love the way you systematically set it up in terms of time requirement, like you said, ten minutes, and then keeping track of the occurrence and then gradually decreasing the amount of incentive given until it's totally internalized. But that's not going to happen one, two, three. And with your, under your auspices, then it can be removed because our goal is to have natural decisions that are better ones than, like you said, that type of language that is inappropriate within a school setting and the community as well, because you're high schoolers, you're preparing them for a position in the community, and that includes language. And these are, these are not always the academic skills, but a lot of times they're the skills that influence success and the soft skills. We've spoken about that before and knowing that their behavior has positive consequences rather than always seeing the negativity or getting a reaction from something negative, but now you're giving the reaction to good job with an incentive. Do you use PBIS at all or? That was more or less a classroom. I was trained in PBIS a little while ago, years ago. So this particular leveling system that we have in the classroom, that was an offshoot of the training from that PBIS. So the rapid bonus tracker was on top of that because we had a point system which covered the students being prepared on time, in their area, non-toxic and transitioning between activities. So they were, we were in a space where we were always trying to keep them earning and learning. I like that, earning and learning. And they are the ones that have to be driving their vehicles to do that. But you have to give them a set of keys and then you have to monitor. For high school level, they relate to that kind of analogy, I think. And a lot of times, is it a little bit of mindfulness or error analysis, would you say, involved? It's a lot of it. It's a lot of it on both ends because the young adults are mimicking the adults in their lives. And it's a big reality for all teachers. We're not the only adults in their lives. So no matter what the example we show them, quantitatively, they don't spend every day, every minute alone with us. So they have to take all of those qualitative experiences with them. And sometimes what we're teaching may go against the grain of the environment that they live in, the community that they spend time in, the culture that they come from. And we're asking these children to automatically leave my classroom and my way of thinking is just going to stick with you. No, we have to sit back and think about when did that type of behavior start? When did you start making those decisions? It didn't start with me. And I always had to get we had to have those conversations. Why are you consistently stuck in this pattern? And what can we do to help you to see if you stay there? Success will be elusive. They say caring adults make a difference. And I know you are so much connected to your students. I've seen you help students do knitting. I've seen you help students do drawings. And I've seen you pull out positive things in students that some students don't think they have anything positive about them. And you mentioned that they they hear and see different things than they would in school than at home. And a lot of times these mixed messages can cause some confusion. So what you're trying to do to Kia, if you could sum that up, is to try to give those students a positive perspective of themselves. They are worth it. And that's what I used to tell them all the time. You're worth it. The L'Oreal commercial was not just a bag of goods, guys, actually worth it. You're worth all that education that I have. I'm here to give it to you, to share it with you, because you're worth it. You're worth all of us taking a minute to hear what you have to say. You're worth us taking time to make room for you in our behavior policies. You're worth it and you're worth you not selling yourself short because someone else described you poorly or someone else misunderstood or misinterpreted something about you. You're worth it. And getting that positive affect, especially for our population, can be very challenging because they're used to hearing. Why do I have you? What are you in here for? How long are you going to be here? Oh, my God, you again? So, you know, I try to be a safe space for them to where you can make your mistakes and it's OK. We all make them. And that's so crucial because a lot of these students have seen some trauma and they don't have always positive messages that are going on around them. And when research does affirm that caring adults such as yourself make a difference and can help students go on that positive direction to make better decisions that will influence not only themselves, but their community and be an integral part of that community, but knowing that they first need those skills to do that. And even though the population that you're working with seems to be on the lower rung of what you said, the least restrictive environment, would you say that even though it is not within the Gen Ed population as much, is it an appropriate one for them? It can be. It absolutely can be. And that's where Dr. Severance comes in, working with her and listening to her and hearing her. One of the biggest philosophy takeaways from her is that you can make room in your classrooms for just about anybody. Could you tell our listeners a little bit about her background? I wish I were a little more educated about her. But Dr. Tracey Severance is an educational consultant that was brought into our district to teach us and to engage us in discussions and trainings about student engagement strategies and ways to incorporate the student into these diverse academic communities. And it has really been very beneficial because whether we like it or not, myself and as long as the two dinosaur teachers, we have a structure. We have a standard. We have a pattern of student that we love to see. And then we have that student that we will close the shades and shutter the windows from. And she gives us a conversation around, well, how do we learn to open these shutters and how do we learn to let them in? So where the general population may not right away be an accommodating space for a student with ERI, it can be made that way. It can absolutely be come a space for them and they can learn incremental successes until they're able to get into that space and succeed on their own or with the moderate amount of support. And she seems to be a little bit from the crisis prevention and student behavior interventions and also from what I'm seeing, that CPI, Crisis Prevention Institute, because a lot of times we want to avert the fires by putting them out and not put another log. And some teachers don't realize that when they call out the negative behavior, they're reinforcing it because be it positive or negative, it's giving it the attention, whether consciously or unconsciously, the student is receiving. And that creates that cycle that is not going to be a good tool for them to have when they're independent adults. They need other avenues where you're seeing and the stigma also of this label is out there. And a lot of times people don't understand a lot about emotional difference. It could be internalizing or it could be externalizing or a combination of would you would you agree with that? And from where I've been this year, I've seen when they're not even aware of why or where they're they're just used to the behavior. They're just used to and asking questions about it. One of the things that I was really big on was encouraging communication and conversation skills, because we have a whole poster in the classroom just giving a description of your facial expressions and of your emotions, because not being able to describe your emotions, you're not always angry. You're certainly not always sad. There's something in between both of those. So what else do you feel and how can we address that? And they would look at me with, oh, wait, there's more there's more than anger and there's more than sadness. There's absolutely more because you're more, you know, so not having the language to communicate what your needs are can create a whole different level of frustration. And I don't want to look, quote unquote, unintelligent, dreaded S word in front of a group of people that I know are equally as emotionally immature as myself. So these guys feel it a lot more hard. They feel it a lot more deeply when they're separated. They feel a lot more deeply when they stand out. And we have to be whether we believe it or not, you actually have to be so much more sensitive with your population and a lot more caring, a lot more observant because they're not used to having soft places to land. They understand concrete. They're the roses that grow out of concrete. Tupac's book is the best. But they're also very, very needful of a very soft place to land, learning sensitivity, learning the tools is not going to happen overnight, but through repeated positive experiences and understanding that they don't rate their behaviors, but they understand. And that awareness is very tough for a child who's two, a child who's eight, a child who's 12 and a child who's 19 and an adult who's 42, right? It just goes on and on and understanding and growing and letting your emotions exist, but letting them not negatively impact either yourself or others is a lesson that goes beyond understanding how to solve a geometric proof, although that does teach them logic as well. But the gist of what I'm saying here is that SEL, social and emotional learning influences life outcomes. And it's not always simple for some of our students because they haven't lived, they don't live simple lives. They have seen a lot more. And I've worked with students such as you have, Takia, and I know where you're coming from, because a lot of the students have seen things in their lives that adults who are 85 have not seen and should not see. I would love to take that giant eraser and make the world wonderful for them. But how do you make how do you make it wonderful for them? What do you do to make them smile? What do you do to make them feel good about themselves? We try to, as you saw in my classroom, we're really big on different types as we celebrate just about everything, you know, and when students would make their way out of the program, we celebrate it. If students had a special skill that wasn't actually able to demonstrate in the classroom, but they could still do it, we celebrate. One of our students graduated from the program a little early. One of my other students baked them a cake. Are you serious? I love that. With no direction, just bake the cake. We said, this guy is graduating sort of, you know, he's promoting out. What do you guys want to do? And they're like, oh, we want to celebrate. And we laughed. We said, well, kid, you're a baker. What are you going to do? You're going to bake him a cake? He came in the next day with the cake, with a heartache, he loved it, sprinkles on top of it. It was a fantastic sense of community for them at that moment and giving them the sense of community that you guys can belong somewhere. You have something of your own. We were very big on playing games in here. They're competitive. They're boys. So a rousing game of tic tac toe, you never saw so many kids answer so many comprehension questions as you do when there's some big checkers on the floor and a big tic tac toe grid there. A TikTok challenge, a simple yes, no TikTok challenge. You never know how challenging it can be simply asking yes and no questions about a text and seeing all the competition come out of them. And it's coming out in a healthy way and more positive interactions and, you know, gamify a little bit with your emotions rather than that. Have you ever used books to help them in terms of like bibliotherapy kind of characters in movies or because some of our kids don't want to hit it head on? And you're going to get your books because, of course, you're in the classroom. What are you coming up with, Mr. Kia Logan? Oh, our theme this year, the first one that we did was Monster by Walter Dean Myers, Monster. We started out talking about perception. We actually taken a step back. We read. Thank you, ma'am. Oh, thank you. And we talked all about what it was to be considered a criminal and whether or not this child was really a criminal or was he a child and having experiencing hard times. And it was some kind of conversation for them to get past this. Wait a second. You mean people shouldn't be just judge? I said, no, they shouldn't be judged by just what they look like, because if they are, sometimes people could get it wrong. And then we moved into Monster. We're talking about influences now. We're talking about choices and social groups, and we're talking about how ever so often those relationships can build consequences into your life. You didn't plan for, you know, I find that with some students also, just like what you're saying, they can't hit it head on face to face to reflect, but they would rather talk about others. I remember I once read with a student Blue Bottle Mystery by Kathy Hoopman, and it was about a student with autism and the student himself had autism and he would never say things that were about him. But he was telling me, Mrs. Carton, he should be doing this. He should be doing that. He was so similar to that character. So we want to figure out different ways to reach and teach emotions better to students. And from what you're saying, you give him so many positive experiences. I know you mentioned earlier something about graphic organizers, something about what you designed for this population. Could you share just a bit about that? Working with these guys and my own child in advance, realizing that a lot of times their ideas are running ahead of them. And that they're running so fast that they think they don't have any. So the graphic organizers were a really quick way for me to tell them, slow down your thinking, just slow it down and see if we can't track some of your ideas. And they absolutely loved it. When we were talking, we actually did a wonderful discussion on whether or not addiction was a moral issue or a biological issue. So they actually got a KWL where they told me what they knew about addiction and what they wanted to know and what they learned. We read a nice NIH article about the biological components of becoming addicted to a behavior, not even a substance, a behavior. And by the end of that reading in there, they got a graphic organizer where they had to actually create a paragraph, the topic, the quote, the evidence. Their paragraphs are beautiful. And they said, oh, they wouldn't have been beautiful without the structure and the tool that you provided. And some people think that just by verbalizing, it's going to change things. Someone can tell me everything I need to do to be successful, to do lifting weights. But I can't lift the weights unless I do it step by step and I'm shown and it's a gradual release and more and more is added each time. So it's a procedure and they need an avenue. And what you're providing, from what I'm hearing, is something that they're going to remember and be able to use now when they leave your class as well. Which they will. Yeah, we scaffold it. They had as low as T-charts and as high as the essay part. Because you mentioned maybe do they have comorbidity, more than one? Absolutely. Absolutely. I've had students with, you know, the ERI is just a part of a specific learning disability in literacy or a specific learning disability in math. So those frustrations in accessing the content or expressing their understanding, if reading a science textbook is a lot harder for some of them than reading a regular textbook. So having a Frayer model to help them to practice with the vocabulary words, it made it less intimidating for them. And they could go right back to that book, go to the book anytime you want, because it's already there and it's in your handwriting. So there goes that authentic piece. It's not mine, it's in yours. Oh, what are you saying? Do you mean that just asking for a definition and putting the word in a sentence isn't enough to gain understanding? I'm being sarcastic. You hear me, girl. It's like I just did Frayer models with a population of students with intellectual disabilities. And I for the non example, I put in some pictures instead of as many words. We wrote captions for pictures, but that's a cognitive thinking skill. And each population of exceptionality, people don't realize they need challenges. They need ways to express their thoughts. They need ways to extract and then return to information. And from what you were describing from these CGOs, curriculum, graphic organizers, Frayer models, teacher arts, all that jazz. You know, remember we were doing the A to Z listing to gather thoughts. We did a schema map for Frankenstein because Frankenstein was our next one. Frankenstein was the next one. Talk about emotions, Frankie. Yes, they actually created a classroom love story of their own version of Frankenstein and their own version of Frankenstein's wife based off of this experience of how could they really focused on how could you create something and abandon it? We don't know if he was really bad because he wasn't taught anything, how he reacted to the environment that he was in. So they found that ignorance can in its own way be very dangerous. But you're giving them other ways and other perspectives, other experiences, be it through literature, be it through relationships, problem solving and moving ahead with the tools that they need. So, you know, they can internalize this and make some better choices for what they're doing and getting them to see that they were actually students. And that was it's a gift. People don't realize that it's a privilege to be perceived as a student in the learning space, not as a problem, not as an issue, not as something to be removed, but as an actual student who's entitled to all of the protections and all of the joys and the celebrations that go along with getting it right more often than not. Well, some of them get it wrong in a 70 30 split, 80 20 split, and they're still our students and they didn't feel like students. They felt like they were there, but they didn't know that they were actually students academically capable and academically able to achieve one of my best moments ever was when they first looked at their grades and said, oh, my God, those are ours. Those are yours. They weren't used to that happening. And so the environment, even though it might be considered more inclusive from what you're describing, it is an appropriate one for your students with your vigilance, the Paris vigilance to see how much you can wean support, who's ready to move to more challenging assignments and who needs more support. And then I think called data is a good thing in terms of academics and emotions to care. And I thank you for what you do and and being who you are and reaching and teaching. And are there any closing statements you want to say to the audience that might help them from your vast knowledge? You know what, I like you and you do have this knowledge. I saw that face. If it's one thing that I have learned being here is that we're never finished learning and there's always somewhere a student can take you and show you something new that you have to give. And, you know, talking to a wonderful professor of mine, Dr. Frangus about roadblock thinking and the car model book that we're reading by Patricia Wright, understanding that we can absolutely get stuck in the way that we do things and because we like it. But students inherently create innovation just by walking in the door. So grab it, enjoy it, embrace it and apply it because they will create their own space in your life and enrich you all the more. If you are like you are yourself, open to listen and learn. And no matter what age we are, I think you quite poignantly express that we're always learners. There's always room to know and grow and to know and grow and share that knowledge with others. And I think you chose the right profession. And wherever you are on whatever campus is lucky to have you there. I think that they will realize that the passion that you display is contagious with your learners. So to Takia Logan, thank you so much for joining us. You have a blessed day. You too. Thank you. Copyright 2024. Karten's Inclusive Conversations. Thank you for listening. Check out other episodes on all major platforms.