KIC S4E2 "Supporting Neurodiverse Learners: A Journey Through Autism and Dyslexia Education" Featuring Ashley Birchall

Toby’s conversation centers around Ashley Birchall’s journey as an educator, highlighting her experiences in inclusive classrooms, her time away from teaching to raise her children, and her return to the field through specialized training. Ashley discusses her work as an inclusion collaborative teacher in New York City, the multifaceted roles educators often juggle, and her decision to become a certified Wilson Dyslexia Practitioner. Themes include the evolving identity of educators, inclusive education practices, the intersection of personal and professional growth, and the importance of specialized training in supporting diverse learners.

References: 

Orton–Gillingham

https://www.readingrockets.org/topics/dyslexia/articles/orton-gillingham-what-you-need-know 

Wilson Dyslexia Practitioner: 

https://www.wilsonlanguage.com/professional-learning/wilson-professional-credentials/ 

Teachers’ perceptions of their experience with inclusive education practices in Saudi Arabia

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0891422223001622 

Understanding Special Education Beyond the Jargon (Quick Reference Guide)

https://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Special-Education-Beyond-Reference/dp/1416633715 

“True inclusion means fostering student independence, not dependence on adults.”

— Freeman-Green et al., 2023

“Exposure to Disability Studies in teacher education significantly increased positive attitudes toward inclusion.”
— Drelick, Freedman, McCann & Morettini, 2023

“Co-teaching can enhance inclusion when there’s parity, planning, and purpose.”
— Iacono et al., 2023

#TobyKarten #Karten’sInclusionConversations #KIC #Inclusion #AshleyBirchall #DyslexiaAwareness #AutismAcceptance #InclusiveEducation #SpecialEducation #Neurodiversity #TeacherLife #EdChat #LiteracyMatters #WilsonReading #DyslexiaSupport #AutismInclusion #EducatorJourney #WomenInEducation #LearningDifferences #EducationPodcast

For more information please visit https://inclusionworkshops.com/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, everybody, Toby Karten KIC, Karten's Inclusion Conversations podcast. And I'm delighted to have an educator that I'm speaking with. Her name is Ashley Abelson Burchell. And she has had a diversified experience, which I think might mirror a lot of our listeners as well, because Ashley spent time in an inclusive classroom setting. And she took some time off, and then she raised her daughter. So we as educators, we have multiple chapeaus or hats that we wear doing different things. And that also involves in a different state in our country in the United States as well, because she was an ICT, an inclusion collaborative teacher in the New York City school system on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And after that, as I said, she took time off and raising her second daughter. And not only that, but she needed to be more than a mom, because as teachers, we can't just have one role, right? So she went back for her certification to become a Wilson dyslexia practitioner. And that's someone who is abreast in Orton-Gillingham approach to reading instruction, which we're going to talk a little bit more about as well. And she was also able to collaborate with other educators, because that's what we do as teachers as well. And she developed a curriculum for social-emotional learning book series with a children's author and helped her with her insights as well. So to see that Ashley Burchell is a collaborator is an understatement. Currently, she is back in a school, but now she is in a public school in North Carolina, and she teaches a self-contained classroom for students with autism. So welcome, Ashley. It's wonderful to be here and to have you as a speaker on KIC Podcast. Any opening statements to our audience about your experience in inclusion and working with kids with what they call special needs? Well, thank you so much for having me, Toby. It's been a pleasure collaborating with you and the little bit of time that I've gotten to know you. And I'm just feel so fortunate to be able to have this opportunity. So thank you. Before we continue, I have to thank my niece, Tracy, for introducing us as well. And Lex as well. They made it happen, right? You know, teachers during the day, but then when you actually realize that the lasting impression that we make on children and their lives is what keeps us going. So I have words. Yeah. Well, just to share a little bit that you made such an impression that how many years later when they were down south, they made sure that they visited a former teacher who made a difference in a family's life. So thank you for what you do. Of course. No, thank thank them for keeping me in their lives so prominently. So I appreciate it. So inclusion and special education, a lot of people say things that indicate that they don't have the background and the knowledge of how to work with children with exceptionalities. And I recently shared with you something is called understanding special education beyond the jargon. It's a little a little QRG quick reference guide I wrote about special ed. And and you shared something that I think is helpful. You want to share what we were discussing before we began the recording about that, about special ed course. Teaching in general is all about teaching children what to do and providing them with examples. And as we say in our world, modeling for them and then showing them and then doing it with them. However, a very big buzzword in our world is a non example, right? Something that doesn't apply. And it was just so eye opening to see non examples on this pamphlet that you provided me with because the first one, for example, of a non example is the lowered expectation. So many teachers, educators, professionals are like, oh, they're in a special ed class, so they just need a lower expectation when it's just just not something we do. Right. As special educators, we meet their needs, but we don't lower the expectation. What if you're working with students that are not, quote unquote, people say on the same level as other kids in the class, what should we do then? Why do people think that those kids need lower expectations? Like you just said, I don't get that. It's so true. It happens so often we think, oh, they can't do it, so we'll just make it easier or we'll just do it for them or we'll have, you know, or we'll just skip it all together. But when we as educators meet children's needs, it's finding out their strengths and finding a kid's strengths take time, potentially takes rapport building. You have to celebrate those successes in order to celebrate those successes. And then you keep the expectation. Yeah, maybe you'll give them a manipulative or maybe you'll provide them with an extra tangible or something to help them guide them, but they should and can meet those expectations given the proper instruction. Yes, 100 percent. I think you're in a perfect example because you work with different populations of students under that special education umbrella from students who needed support, like a collaboration with another teacher in a setting within the New York City schools. And now in North Carolina, you're working with a class of students with autism. We didn't discuss questions ahead of time, but I'm going to throw this one out to you. What are those kids have in common that can all be successful? Thank you. And they all have strengths, right? They all have strengths. And it is beautiful to see what we now call non-speaking children, which previously used to be called non-verbal, but they are the same now we've changed the jargon a bit. These children that are non-speaking are just as intelligent as the children with high functioning autism, but just in such a different way. And they have so many strengths. It's finding those strengths and fostering them and celebrating them. I love that. So when we know our kids' strengths, at the same time, we also know maybe triggers or needs. So I know that you are passionate about, too. We spoke about this at another conversation we had about Orton Gillingham and why you feel the need for such a program. And maybe our listeners can gain some insights from what you discover. I would love that. I was fortunate enough, as you said at the beginning, to take some time off with my daughter and they inspired me to obtain another certification because we're forever learners. That is actually a quote my principal has called me, a forever learner. Love it. Love it. Yes. Take it to heart. So I started doing some Orton Gillingham with some kids in one-on-one settings and the most recent student that I work with, she's in seventh grade. So she gets herself. She's very cognizant of her strengths and areas of improvement that she needs. And one of our first sessions, she said to me, Ashley, my mom and dad have dyslexia. Do I have dyslexia? And I said, sweetheart, I can't diagnose you. I do not have an MD attached to my name. But the characteristics that you're showing me and with my expertise, we're going to provide proper intervention, which is a multisensory approach to reading and spelling, decoding and encoding, as we call it in the education world. Yeah. Let's not over jargon. Remember, we want to go special at understanding it beyond the jargon, right? Right. Exactly. And she has grown. And I haven't worked with her that many months, but she has grown most importantly with her confidence because she is getting what she needs done by a professional myself with fidelity. Fidelity is important because, you know, we could do a comparable situation like I want to lose five pounds. Right. And it was really good today. But when I went on the scale, it didn't show I lost the weight. What do you mean? It doesn't happen right away. But with fidelity, with evidence based practices and something else, we also tossed around the word rigor, rigor. What what does that look like? What does rigor look like? And it's up to you to do the setting, right? What does rigor look like in a self-contained classroom with autism? What would rigor look like compared to another setting in special education? How do we deliver rigor with fidelity? It's like what script do we follow? Is it as simple as the periodic table as one element, you know, and you know, I'm being a little silly here when I say that quantity. But actually, with your experience in this population, what have you discovered that maybe about fidelity and rigor that is is non-negotiable? All kids want to be challenged. Why? Because when you're challenged, you feel the success and it kind of all, it just seems to be a theme, right? So it just success, right? So when your kid is challenged, and then they succeed, you know that they feel that confidence. And the example may not be the classroom example, but I think about my girls in gymnastics class, and it's amazing. They have this large bell in the middle of the room. And whenever a student in gymnastics, of course, meets a goal, they go and they ring the bell and the whole gymnastics out loud. It's beautiful. And yeah, I love it. And they haven't done this, because it was easy for them. They've been rigorously trained, they've been competing potentially or not, right, recreationally or competitive doesn't matter. But they feel that success. And it doesn't just happen overnight, these kids need to be challenged to just gain another level of confidence of excitement of success. Yes, and success doesn't look the same for each child, even though each child that say might share that diagnosis of autism, or difficulty with executive functioning, or ADHD with or without the hyperactivity. So success to one student might be sitting for five minutes paying attention, and then you up the game. And the next week, we're going to try for seven minutes, and then you're going to incrementally increase it, but you're always progress monitoring that success and setting the stage for it. But you shared so many quotes with you. Yes, you are a forever learner, I agree with your principles. And one of the ones that I pick up is research in developmental disabilities, 2023, from a Saudi Arabia study, and it says, general education teachers reported significantly less preparation and confidence in inclusive practices. So how does that correlation when we just spoke about success and rigor and fidelity, how does that impede some of those things as we move forward, you think fidelity is done when teachers are properly trained, and there is a plethora of resources in our world. However, unfortunately, not many of the teachers are provided with these resources. So often we will, you know, I think back again about being in New York, and so often I would go for a one day training or a three day training. And it was a training, I took it to the next level and was able to obtain certifications, because I was passionate about it. But very often you'll hear and I do hear all the time in general, a teacher saying, I just don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I don't have the skill set. I don't have the training or potential certifications in that area of expertise. And that's where that thing called collaboration happens. I've had teachers in my career who mentored me, I'm now mentoring, coaching and facilitating other teachers, and you're doing the same. And it seems to be the time that we as a profession need to be collaborators. So maybe my knowledge of the biology curriculum might not be the same as the gen ed teacher. And I'm working with that teacher to include a student with autism, but I could give that teacher some tips on how to maybe include more visuals, step by step lab instructions for safety, things that go into that planning and preparation. And another quote that you had here, and I'm always back to the research. This is not just our opinions. This is what studies empirical evidence states, which is important for us to continue as a profession to be respected and to know that they're just not fly by night, you know, we'll try this out, see if it works. Yes, some is trial and error, but with the evidence based practices, there is fidelity and rigor in the studies given. So this one says co-teaching can enhance inclusion when there's parity, planning and purpose. Now, I love that statement, but I myself and I think you as well have experienced and I'm sure some of our listeners situations where there wasn't as much parity, planning and purpose as we would like and how we as a profession need to beef up our game in that respect. I love that quote, and it really resonated with me because this is something I take a lot of pride in. And in particular this year, more than ever, or the, in this role, I should say of working when a self-contained class, I am not just with a co-teacher. There are a lot of hands in my classroom and those hands need to be what it's the word I'm looking for, but respected is ultimately what I, the word I'm looking for because I'm the teacher, but we are all the teachers and that's where the parody comes in. When I'm interviewing candidates for the assistant position, that's what I'm referring to, to be clear. One of the first questions I ask a candidate is, are you comfortable teaching and taking over because I want the kids, not because I don't want to do it, but I want the kids to see you as a teacher. You are not just an assistant in my classroom. You are one of me because there will be a day that I'm out sick or there will be a meeting I need to attend and I don't want them to think or say or do or act, nope, Mrs. Burchell's not here. I don't need to listen to her. She is just as important as I am. Parity is something that, you know, it almost brings chills to my body because without it you have nothing and that has to start from the get go beginning of the school year, starting building the rapport, showing them the assistance again, in this, in this case, assistants are just as much of a teacher as I am. They don't know that I do the report cards and the paperwork and all that, but it doesn't matter. They need to respect them just as much as they respect us. A hundred percent. I've worked with different instructional assistants, paraprofessionals, teacher assistants that call different labels throughout the country. However, it's not that they don't want to do something. Sometimes guidance is needed. And also what you mentioned a few times, it's so important, rapport, because you're working with that other adult who might not have had the same schooling, but has the same desire to help, has the same desire to collaborate. And in that classroom, when you have all of these people collaborating together, it's wonderful. Students with autism, I'm sure some of them, you know, have also the related service providers, occupational therapists, maybe some of them need sensory diets. You know, everyone in this world needs a sensory diet. You don't need a diagnosis of ASD, autism spectrum disorder to see, I just need to chill out a moment and calm, take mindfulness. But maybe I don't have that same training and strategy as an occupational therapist or a speech and language pathologist or different ways of communicating. When the kids go to music and art, they're collaborators or physical education. And they're all gen ed teachers per se. But I always say, I don't know if you agree with this or disagree. I always felt I don't have that all of the dual certification, but I feel that in some ways, we are dually certified in teaching all children. If they're in the same classroom that if someone's asking me a question, I'm going to do my best to find that answer. And if I don't have it, let's discover together. And that's called problem solving and thinking skills. Or let me ask Mrs. Burchall for what she thinks how we should do it. So it's OK, because what you're doing for your population of students is modeling good collaborative practices with adults to get the job done. And that requires in that quote, the planning and the purpose. And that doesn't happen if attitudes aren't changed, too. And that's something else that we spoke about that we wanted to discuss a little bit. That the exposure in teacher education now, I work with pre-service teachers now at College of New Jersey and I worked at a couple of other universities. And teachers want to teach kids with dyslexia, but they might not know how. Like the math teacher needs help helping the kids do the word problems. And he doesn't realize that there's even something called dyscalculia, a math disorder. Some things are just not within people's radar. So how do you think we should go about doing this without getting on a pulpit and preaching? Yeah, I mean, exposure. I always say I wish I wish every single teacher part of their schooling or not, maybe just the beginning of the year or throughout the year should come to spend a day in my classroom. Love it. Just pop in this spend an hour if you can't make the day spend, you know, 40 minutes, whatever your can make happen, because exposure to this population, I truly believe is is undervalued. People just genuinely do not know. And the only way they will know is if they get exposed. Like anything, right? We don't know what people with autism like or don't like because we've never met them or interacted with them. And it's just being exposed and having the experience. But if you're just so blinded because of the bubble you're in, you'll never get it. Yeah, unfortunately, people hear a label and they have preconceived notions of the capabilities of someone with, let's say, a classification under IDEA, Individuals with Disabilities Education Act of Autism and thinking that they cannot do things. Well, maybe they can't do it the same way, but here's how they can. And that's why with our with this podcast, I think and if you have some, please toss them this way and I'll share it with our listening audience. Some good some good places where people could go and find out more information and more exposure to the facts about autism and learning what they don't know. Or maybe they heard someone say one time and they're repeating it, but that's not evidence-based. And that's something that we need to do to have us move forward to see that an exceptionality might be a difference, but it's not a limitation. That's something that I hear in YouTube, Ashley, which I just love, is that you have a passion for helping students and for spreading the knowledge in terms of what kids need. And in one of the things I have there in understanding, especially at Beyond the Jargon, is lead but don't spoon feed. And that is very similar to one of the quotes that you said, too, and it's one of my tag from the email, too, that we don't create students in our own image, they create their own image. And you spoke about inclusion and this quote from Freeman Green 2023. And it talks about true inclusion means fostering student independence, not dependence on adults. Could you elaborate? I mean, I strategically chose these quotes, and every time you reread them, they just stick with me and resonate with me, and I just love them. Yeah, so often, similarly, we want kids to be successful, but we hand, or spoon feed them, I should say, right? We do so much for them. But ultimately, when you find that success, it's because you did it. You did it independently. We are just enabling or providing the help, teaching the, as we say in ABA or autism world, like the backchaining world where we start with something and we highly scaffold and then slowly wean it off. That's just what the backchaining means. And it's amazing to see that we're teaching the independence. I don't want to teach, again, in the population I'm with right now. I'm not teaching little Johnny, of course, I'm using a fake name, little Johnny, how to take his jacket off and then just doing it for him. It may be easier if I do do it for him, of course, and his teachers and mothers and parents, we all know that, but it's so much more important for Johnny to do it himself, to not be reliant on his teacher or his mother or his, you know, babysitter or whatever. But we want Johnny to be dependent on himself. So what are the tools? How can I task analyze taking off a jacket and making it accessible for him slowly and really fostering the independence? And that's something like that question I have that I say, how will the student learn how to help themselves? And I love when students used to say, thanks, Mrs. Carton, I don't need your help anymore. And it's the best. And they connect with you on LinkedIn. That's what we want to see, productive, working, tax paying individuals. And that's something that happens. And I love that how you just explained to us the backchaining and, you know, the scaffolding and just the level, the right support. And you observe, you keep data, the other people in the room, the assistant, you collaborate. I don't mean to oversimplify it, but we in the education field sometimes give too much of the jargon. And that just swedes people from from the basics. And the basics are that all students could learn, they're just going to learn differently. So what are we as professionals? How are we as professionals such as yourself? And I need to clone you who go out and say, here's how I'm going to try this. Not I'm always, but the pronoun will try this. And you feed off of each other like we're doing now in our conferencing and thinking about things. You know, exposure happens in different ways with books, with movies, with disability awareness programs. I remember when ADA first came out and I was walking by a store and I saw a mannequin in a wheelchair. And it was the first time I ever saw that. And it meant so much. It inspired me to have someone in a wheelchair come and talk to different classrooms and to speak to people, to gain exposure so we don't fear what we don't know. And as professionals, as teachers, I'm not demeaning other professions. We need all professions, but teachers are very dedicated and they're very married to their jobs in terms of having that bottom line of success for the students. I could see that in your passion and I thank you for what you do. And you know, I don't think that you say that one program is better than the other, but we need the right one for the right kids. Hence Orton Gillingham for a child who needs help with oncoding and decoding because their brain's not wired the same way. Or maybe discrete task analysis, or you mentioned ABA for a student with autism. Any other ideas or things about that? Because the academic programs, social behavioral programs, but I call them the ABCs, academics, behavior, communication, thinking about emotional services and supports, things like that. I think they all matter. But in your experience, you know, in New York City schools, North Carolina schools, what do you feel is maybe a common thread or an idea? Where does someone start to say, I need to know more? What comes to mind right away is also, you know, you said the ABCs, the functional living. I jumped down to F. Again, maybe just because it's more prominent in my brain right now due to the nature of my current position in a self-contained role. But you know, we can't forget about the functional living skills where they're so pivotal to, you know, they're the basics, right? They're the backbone to so much. Think about my students today and working with crossing midline, because I have students in my classroom that still can't write the letter L, which are just two straight lines. So we're working on, you know, tracing straight lines and then we're going to move on to crossing midline and just thinking about functional living skills, which are just going to help them flourish in the future as well. I love that. And when kids are working in cooperative groups, they're not only finding quote unquote the answer, they're finding out how to work with others to get the answer. And that's, that's great. And those functional skills, that's always, let's get into a little jargon, the pleb or the plop or the plaf, you're laughing, you know what I mean? The learners, the listeners are saying, oh my goodness, that's jargon, present level of academic achievement and functional performance or present level of performance or present level of educational performance. It's this little statement, a narrative in an IEP, individualized educational program. I always needed to include in that narrative, what you just said, functional level. No matter if the student needed to increase their reading comprehension, whatever it was, but functional connections, whether that's reading a menu, whether that would be able to read a table and understand how to find out when the bus is coming next, right? These are things that are functional skills that even some of our brightest students without IEPs are sometimes lacking. And we need to have that well-rounded picture. Kids with autism need different things, but they also need the same things. And those same things, I think you spelled out nicely, high expectations, loving support from others, discrete task analysis, and the ability to see a student's potential and never to limit them by a label or misconception or misinformation that might be out there about autism or any other difference as well. So, Ashley, do you have any closing comments you'd like for people to walk away with? I just want to thank you for your time and kind of reinvigorating me as an educator, you brought out this clapping, yes, thank you, action of like, I love talking about it. You've inspired me in the short, you know, again, the short amount of time, it just takes one. Thank you for being my one. Oh my goodness, you see my face right now, they can't right now, but you invigorate me too, because when I have responsive people who want to take forth the next generation in such a positive direction, you go girl, and we'll go there together as collaborators. And I just want to thank Ashley Abelson Burchall for being a teacher. Thank you for choosing your profession and for sharing your knowledge with others in the classroom and those who teach kids in the classroom as well. Much appreciation. Copyright 2025. Karten's Inclusion Conversations. Thank you for listening. Check out other episodes on all major platforms.