Episode 20: How to Recruit and Retain Associates in the Legal Job Market

In this episode of Championing Justice, personal injury attorney Darl Champion sits down with lawyer-turned-legal-recruiter Steve Stone, who has spent more than 20 years placing hundreds of attorneys with law firms and counseling others on their career progression.

Join us for a thoughtful discussion about compensating associate lawyers at your firm, how to attract the right lawyers to your practice, and more.

→ Learn more about Steve and Stone Search Partners here: https://stonesearchpartners.com/

→ Contact Steve directly at sstone@stonesearchpartners.com or on LinkedIn

Watch this and other Championing Justice episodes on YouTube: Championing Justice video episodes

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Transcript

Thank you for listening to the Championing Justice podcast.

My name is Darl Champion.

I am a personal injury lawyer in Atlanta, Georgia, and I own my own law firm called The Champion Firm.

This podcast is aimed at personal injury lawyers and talks about a variety of topics, including everything from working up your case to how to manage and run a law firm.

That's what we're going to be talking about today with Steve Stone.

Steve is a legal recruiter and we are going to be discussing all things employment related to lawyers.

That includes how to find lawyers, how to train them, how to retain them, compensation.

It will be from both an associate's perspective and what associates can do to build their brand and build their career and position themselves for success, and also from the law firm owner's perspective.

Thanks for joining us, Steve.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Great to be here.

So, tell us a little bit about what you do.

Yeah, so I am a former practicing lawyer.

I did went to law school down in Florida and practiced for a few years in Tampa, moved back up to Atlanta to be with family, and while I was awaiting my Georgia bar results, I went in to visit a recruiter to see what I might be able to do afterwards, and got recruited to be a recruiter.

Interesting.

And that was that.

That was 2000.

In 2000, that was when the first major pay bumps with the large firms were coming.

So the pitch to me was, all right, the large firms in Atlanta are paying 60 grand for their starting associates.

I think Troutman may have gone to 75, and Alston jumped them to 100, and that became the set, and they said, go to Birmingham, go to Chattanooga.

You know, people are billing the same amount of hours, bring them to Atlanta.

It would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

And it was for about six months until the.com crisis.

Interesting, yeah.

So I've been recruiting for, this is year 26.

I place lawyers at all levels with law firms and corporate legal departments.

I'm also a certified coach.

I've been doing that for about 16, 17 years.

So I work with some law firms on career transition, and I work with individual lawyers on career issues, as well as new partners on management, leadership, time management issues, things like that.

So you mentioned the pay scale.

I think it's probably shocking for some people to hear.

Granted, that was 25 years ago, which is also hard to believe.

When you got into recruiting, was that with an agency or how does that work?

I mean, are you getting paid a commission?

Yeah, so I did.

I went with one of Atlanta's top legal recruiting shops.

They're still around.

At that point in time, I was paid a salary and then a commission on every placement.

That's generally how it's done.

Some, it's draw, cover commission.

Some, it's commission only.

So it just depends.

Now, you mentioned that you went to law school.

How long did you work as a practicing attorney before you got into recruiting?

Close to four years.

And what was that?

Was that transactional, litigation?

It was a mixed bag.

It was some transactional work, a little bit of bankruptcy, like Chapter 11 Re-Org, and some soft IP, copyrights, trademarks, text stuff.

Interesting.

Well, and you mentioned the law firms that you place people with.

You work with law firms of all sizes.

And just so our listeners know, we've used Steve as well.

I can't remember how we got connected.

It may have even been on LinkedIn.

I can't remember, but we've used Steve to find lawyers for us.

And one of the things that I think is beneficial of using a recruiter, and we'll talk a little bit more later about all the ins and outs of finding lawyers, but recruiters can not only help vet the candidates, but they can reach out to people who are at law firms to try to get them.

So instead of the lawyer cold calling a bunch of people, the recruiter can do that for you.

So I think that's a tremendous benefit.

How much are you working with firms that are doing litigation versus transactional, regardless of what side they're on?

Yeah, I mean, it's relationship based.

So it's a basket full.

I wouldn't say I focus in any particular area.

And I like to work with smaller and medium sized firms.

I work with a lot of AMLaw firms.

But the thing is, is a lot of recruiters work with a lot of AMLaw firms.

So I, at this point in my career, when I have an opportunity to work with a firm exclusively and really get to know their owners and their partners and really how they do business, I find those searches very interesting.

Now one of the things I want to talk about is just the current state of the market.

So you know, and obviously we're here in Atlanta.

What are some of the things that you're seeing in the Atlanta area?

Any trends?

So everything is cyclical, right?

I'll give you an example.

The pandemic hit.

For about three months, it was dead.

Nobody thought there would be any hiring for, you know, the remainder of the year.

Forever.

Yeah, pretty much.

And then the fourth quarter happened, and I think that's when SPACs came into existence, Special Purpose Acquisition Companies, for the transactional side.

And M&A, private equity, you know, anything transactional went crazy.

That happened, and there was an insatiable appetite for transactional lawyers until like the fourth quarter of 23.

And then it went dead, because tech companies started laying people off.

And so there was an over hiring, it went to litigation.

We are now swinging back a little bit towards transactional litigation is still hot, intellectual property, labor and employment, a lot of cybersecurity privacy stuff.

And regulatory issues, I think, are going to be big going into 25 as a new administration comes in.

Interesting.

Yeah.

One, from the perspective of salaries and benefits, you know, we talked a little bit about the, was it $60,000 was the market in, I guess, the late 90s.

How competitive is that now in Atlanta with what firms are paying and they're trying to one up each other?

Is there like an arms race on that still?

There is, it's, yeah, the arms race has been going forever.

Top market.

So these are like New York market firms, but there's more than a handful in Atlanta, because just to give you some context, firms used to basically look at different markets.

So if you were in a major market, you got paid what the New York folks paid.

But if you were in a smaller market at a different scale, it's more uniform now.

There's still some of that going on, but it is more uniform.

Right now, a first year lawyer at a top AMLA firm is making a base of 225 up to 435 for an eighth year.

Then you have all the bonuses attendant to that if they hit their billables, which I think range anywhere from like 15,000 to 115 for an eighth year.

Then oftentimes, depending on the economy, there are special bonuses as well.

It's pretty expensive.

I graduated from Law School at Mercer in 2007.

I knew I wanted to be a plaintiff's lawyer, so I really didn't do the summer associate thing.

The firms were paying a ton of money, what I thought back then.

For new associates back then, I want to say King & Spalding in 2007 was like maybe 145.

Sounds about right, but they're in the 200s now?

Yeah, 225.

Wow.

225, and you have, like I said, it's a little bit more than a handful of firms that are locked up all the way up, and then other AMLA firms, they'll pay their first year's 225 to show in the windows, to recruit first-year law students, but then there's more compression as you go up.

It's like selling your milk for cheap at the grocery store, right?

We were talking about that the other day.

Try to get them in the door, and so there's more compression.

Well, that's interesting.

Now, I imagine there's been a ton of changes just since like 2019 because of the pandemic in terms of work structure and that sort of thing, but what are some major differences that you've noticed over the last 10 years?

Whether it's compensation, how long people are staying in jobs, whatever it is, what are some changes that you've seen over the last decade?

Yeah, increased stratification and consolidation.

Now, we're talking again mostly about Amlaw firms, so if you want me to talk more specifically about other size firms, but most of the press and media is on Amlaw firms.

But yeah, you've seen a lot more mergers.

You've seen an increase in group hiring instead of individual partner hiring firms looking to leverage and lift out entire groups and plug them in, to add as much revenue to the bottom line as possible because there's just been a flurry of increased movement.

The free agency game amongst associates and partners is like I've never seen it.

Well, you mentioned the Amlaw firms, but even in the insurance defense industry, practice groups, and I don't know, do you do much work with insurance defense firms?

I work with a couple of colleagues that do, but I don't do a lot myself.

Yeah, I mean, what I've seen a lot of is, you know, the partners bouncing around to different law firms and taking their business with them and the associates with them, but then also a lot of associates leaving quickly.

Now, I've left a defense firm after a very short period of time.

I was there six or seven months before I went to go be a plaintiff's lawyer, and that was 2009 to 2010.

That was like unheard of then for somebody to stay that short period of time.

It was typically like two years, but even then, like probably 20 years ago, two years was a very short period of time.

Now, it seems like it's like three to six months sometimes.

There's definitely, since the pandemic, there's been an increase in movement.

I think a big part of that, it was an ability to create any stickiness of integration with folks.

I saw a number of people that went to new firms and then went back to their old firms, which you almost never saw.

And depending on the law of supply and demand, depends on how picky firms are going to be about that, right?

So we're swinging back to more of a traditional, like, you know, I don't want to see people that are spending a year and a half, two years at every firm.

But what's interesting is you have mid-level to senior lawyers now, you know, who have been out since 2019, 2020.

That's their normal.

They're used to that.

They're used to, you know, changing jobs or at least looking at opportunities every couple of years.

So as a recruiter, I have to counsel them, you know, you're not going to be able to keep jumping.

The market is not like that anymore.

So that's, I think, what I've seen a lot of.

You asked, you know, what's changed over the past 10 years.

You know, there really hasn't been a recession in the past 10 years.

So you have very senior lawyers that haven't seen, you know, any kind of a down market.

Now, maybe in their particular practice area, because, you know, different things cycle, but a full scale, you know, downturn, we haven't seen.

So, you know, I think it's getting more and more difficult to make equity partner.

I mean, that's been since, you know, I got out since you got out.

There's been a huge rise in non-equity ranks for retention purposes, but also for business development.

A partner title goes a long way towards allowing a lawyer to develop business rather than being a senior associate or counsel.

And then smaller and mid-sized firms, you know, rising, was it rising tide raises all those.

Everybody's had to adjust in some former fashion if they want to continue to get the talent that they're used to getting.

Yeah, I mean, if you're a boutique firm, whether you have institutional clients or if you're representing consumers like a plaintiff's boutique firm, if you're trying to get top talent and you're competing with firms that are setting a floor of 225 for entry levels, it makes it tough.

And that's one of the things that I've noticed over the last 10 years that I've had my firm is it is harder to recruit lawyers from established law firms.

Again, even if it's not one of the big am law firms, it might be an insurance defense firm in town because they're competing with those firms.

So they're paying more money.

And the other thing that I've noticed is there's, I think this is just a culture thing right now with text messages and you can order on Uber Eats and have food immediately at your house or Instacart and groceries are there.

Media gratification.

Media gratification.

And so people aren't willing to make the sacrifices and take the pay cuts to work their way up into a long term fit.

Whereas 20 years ago, for example, to be a plaintiff's attorney, yeah, I mean, you took a very low base salary with a high commission structure and you looked at it as a great opportunity.

Now when I interview lawyers, they want both.

They want the high compensation and the high bonus.

And it's like, wait a second, it doesn't really work that way.

And I don't know.

I mean, I imagine it's just going to get worse and get worse from the law firm owner's perspective on the plaintiff's side or even just a small firm side to hire and recruit top talent.

It is.

I mean, what it comes down to is how do you, you know, how do you differentiate yourself?

But also finding candidates and, you know, they need these candidates need to hopefully have good mentors and counselors that are saying, listen, compensation is certainly a factor.

We all need to make money, take care of our families.

But it should not be a dispositive factor, particularly when you're a younger lawyer.

You need to be looking, I always tell lawyers, three distinct time frames, short, medium and long term.

And looking at 10 years out, try to reverse engineer your career and the different rungs and moves you're going to make.

You're unlikely to stay at the next place for the entirety of your career.

So how is that going to be as a jumping off point for where you want to go next?

But just thinking in the moment, you're bound to maybe get something that appears nice and new and shiny, wears off pretty quickly and can have dramatic effect on your career overall.

Yeah, and a lot of this ties into something you mentioned, which is mentoring and training.

And it creates this cycle where the law firms, because they have to make so much money to pay the people the salaries that they're paying them, they don't have as much time for mentoring and training.

And mentoring and the lack of mentoring and training leads people to leave.

And people leaving leads the law firm owners to not want to mentor and train.

I mean, I've heard that from law firm owners where they say, you know, I keep training these people and they just keep leaving.

I'm just not going to do it anymore.

And it's like, what are you going to do?

You know, the common thing that I have people tell me is, well, aren't you worried that you're going to train them and teach them all the stuff?

And then they leave.

Well, I mean, that can happen.

I mean, they're not indentured servants.

They don't have to stay here.

But if you want to have a law firm that's more than just you, you've got to run that risk.

What I mean, have you seen problems with mentoring and training?

And is that like a new thing?

Has it gotten worse?

I mean, absolutely.

You know, in large firms, it's rare to find the partner that really likes to mentor and train.

The only way I think to fix that problem is to tie it somehow to their compensation.

And I think that's a big differentiator that small and medium-sized firms should lean into, is we can train you and offer you more substantive work sooner rather than later.

We're not going to throw you in the deep end of the pool, or we might kind of, but there'll be someone there to support you.

But to your point, you know, and being someone that's had people work with me in the past, if I don't train them, they don't feel comfortable delegating anything to them.

They're not going to treat my clients or handle my candidates the same, you know, with such care as I would.

So I get that it's a double-edged sword, but to me, it's pure necessity, you know?

And so what it comes down to really is what's your hiring process to ensure you have the best probability of getting someone that, if you do pour in to them, that they're going to stay.

Yeah.

I have sort of a prediction on that, and I think you kind of see it in college sports with the NIL.

The smaller mid-sized schools are the opportunities for players that maybe weren't heavily recruited to go and play.

And then after a year or two, they're going to the big school to get their NIL money.

I think you're going to see the same thing in law firms.

I think you're going to see lawyers that maybe didn't do as well in law school, go to smaller firms, get a ton of experience, and then they're lateraling into these more established law firms for the higher pay.

And the big law firms may view the smaller firms as the training grounds.

This is where you're going to learn, and we're just going to poach people from there.

We'll see how that plays out.

Let's talk a little bit about your advice to lawyers, because I know that's something you mentioned that you coach lawyers and you give them advice.

Do you have any recommendations for how long lawyers need to stay at a firm before they start looking?

I mean, do you have kind of like a, don't even talk to me unless it's this amount of time.

No, no.

I mean, it's...

You have a rule of thumb.

It's not one size fits all.

You know, when people call me if they've been at their firm for 10 months to a year, I mean, listen, there's conventional wisdom, you never leave a job without a job.

Unless, I mean, if it's having such an impact, and there are a lot of mental health issues and legal pressure, if it's having such an impact on you in other ways, then the conventional wisdom is out the window and you've got to do what's best for you.

But really, I think when you notice that either it's a dead end, there's been, and I've talked about this in the past, a pattern or false or empty promises, you know, oh, we're going to put you up for partner next year or yeah, you know, this is going to happen and it just never happens.

Or if there's just no, if you see a dead end somewhere, you know, no origination credits being shared with you, you can't bring in matters enough to sustain, you know, hey, I'm a 32-year-old person and I'm going to try to go out and develop a business at 800 an hour, probably not going to work for me.

Yeah.

But I think the biggest thing is just not keeping your head in the sand and at least a couple of times a year thinking, taking some time to really just sit down and think about your career and where you are.

It's hard to do because you've got so many hours to bill and you're so busy and there's so many demands in and outside of the office.

But what I do see more than anything, if you ask what's a rule of thumb, is don't wait till you're a seventh year associate and then go out on your own or call a recruiter and say, where can I go or place me?

At that point, there are some questions that perspective employers will have.

Were you not partner in the material?

What were you doing wrong?

What's going wrong here?

And at that point, you're already so expensive that economically it just doesn't really work out.

Golden handcuffs, right?

I mean, that's a common thing that people have.

And the longer you're there, the more money you're making.

You're likely to potentially be more likely to be in a family situation where maybe you have other mouths to feed, and it makes it harder to leave.

You know, I think I constantly hear from people who say, you know, next year I'm going to do this, or next year I'm going to do that.

And it's like, why are you waiting?

I mean, you're waiting like five years?

Like, and maybe it's I'm just naturally impatient.

Yeah.

It's the most powerful force, and lawyers just get stuck in it, you know?

Yeah.

And I mean, particularly lawyers, I mean, some people are just really, really risk averse and they don't want to take the chance.

And it's like, well, what if I leave?

And it's like, well, you're not happy in your situation.

Why are you staying?

The one thing that's interesting to me while we're talking about from the lawyer's perspective, and you mentioned, you know, mental health issues and that kind of thing, you know, I'm sure that partners are now behaving better than they have in the past.

But there's a lot of stories of people working for nightmare partners and, you know, just mental and emotional abuse.

Is that something you see getting better?

I mean, are you still hearing stories that shock you?

It is getting better, and I'm still hearing stories that shock me.

Yeah.

You know, it depends on the firm, right?

And, you know, do they really have a policy where they just won't accept that?

Or do they have that policy?

But if you have a $15 million book of business, you know, you kind of look the other way.

Any shocking stories you can share with us without breaching any confidentiality?

I don't know any specific fact patterns, you know, to share, but it's exactly what you said.

You know, it's just lack of respect.

It's mental, emotional abuse, and there's still just a lot of sexual harassment going on.

On the subject of lawyers, you mentioned, you know, one mistake is just staying too long.

Any other common mistakes that you see lawyers make in their career?

Getting pigeonholed in a practice that just is not going to be a long-term fit for them.

Do you have any advice?

I mean, let's say a lawyer is in a practice area that they don't want to be pigeonholed in.

Any advice?

Is it changing firms?

Is it asking for diversification of work?

Well, you have to know when to put your head out at your firm, whether it's going to be chopped off or not.

But yeah, I mean, you've got to try to get out.

If it's something that just you can never get a love or passion for or any other reason that it's just not going to be long term sustainable.

I'm not saying it's going to be easy to pivot practice areas and recruiters, you know, unless it's a white hot market and an insatiable demand.

Sometimes people, my clients would be willing to retool someone, but that doesn't happen very often.

So it's going to take a lot of elbow grease and working your own network and really getting out there and maybe taking a step or two back.

I think that's the biggest thing, right?

You know, you're going to have to maybe take a pay cut, maybe start at a lower level to get experience in a new practice area.

And that's something that I wanted to talk to you about was, you know, switching practice areas.

And I know you've placed some people with me, you know, one of whom was on the defense side.

And I'll tell you, one of the common mistakes that I hear or see is just a lack of willingness to start over or to start at an entry level.

Because they're, again, they're at the firm, they're making that amount of money and they want to keep making it.

And then they want the bonuses that come with it.

I think there's also a misconception among plaintiffs or among defense lawyers about plaintiffs' lawyers, which is that it's somehow easy to make money.

And it's not.

I mean, it's really hard.

It's a lot of work.

And I think they're going to come over and they're just going to send some demands and get the cases.

And it's like, no, you got to actually work and do a lot of work.

Do you have any advice for any lawyers that might be on, whether it's the defense side or maybe in a commercial litigation firm or an am law firm looking to be a plaintiff's lawyer, any advice for them, if anybody's listening?

Yeah, and I'm working with a few of these folks right now.

Get out of your own way and look beyond an immediate one or two year window.

Look at the big picture.

If this is what you really want to do, it takes some sacrifices.

But I mean, you know, if you come from a defense side, you may all in comp-wise, maybe first year, if you're like a fourth year at an insurance defense firm, you might even basically lateral out, all in.

But the second and third year, if you're good at what you do, you're going to kill it.

Yeah, I will tell you.

So when I went to go work at a plaintiff's firm, I took a $33,000 pay cut, $33,000 a year pay cut.

That was a tough conversation I had with my wife, especially because I went from law school to clerking for a federal judge.

It was okay.

It was in makin.

It was a cost of living is reasonable.

But compared to what the first year associates were making, it was kind of comparable.

To then, oh, hey, we finally got a good job, making good money, to six months later being, I'm actually leaving to go take a $33,000 a year pay cut.

But again, you've got to look at your career beyond one year, three year, five years.

It's 10, 20 years.

If I had never made that switch, I would potentially still be at a defense firm, miserable.

I'd have less hair than I do now.

I mean, it's already thinning on the back.

It'd be even worse.

You mentioned the salaries and the pay and how it works.

What I tell people is your first year, you're probably going to make less money.

You could break even, kind of like what you said, but your first year, you're probably going to make less money.

It depends on your comp structure and that sort of thing, but if you've got some sort of commission or incentive-based structure, it's going to take a while to get those cases resolved and to get them through the pipeline.

Your second year, you might, again, break even or do a little bit better, but where I've seen people really take off is that three to four, five-year mark.

I mean, we've got an attorney with us now who's been with us for over four years and last year had a phenomenal year, but it took a while to get there.

And so I think people, this is what leads to the job hopping.

People go to a firm, they're there for a year or two, they get impatient, they want that instant gratification, they then leave to go to another law firm.

And it's like my LinkedIn is constantly filled with people that are changing jobs every one to two years.

I'll tell you it's particularly bad on the high-volume settlement mill side with these advertising firms.

It's like if you look at some of their resumes, some of the people in Atlanta have worked with like all of them.

I've seen it.

There are three or four and it's the same thing with staff and they bounce around because they want that instant gratification.

One question I wanted to ask you, and this is a broad one, what do you think law schools could be doing better to prepare new lawyers?

Yeah, and I've actually had talks with law schools about this.

I think it's in common upon them to introduce some facet of their coursework about the business of law.

Yep.

I will tell you a funny story.

So at Mercer, I took a law school called How to Start and Manage a Law Firm, and it was taught by a lawyer who did not know how to manage a law firm.

And it was kind of like known that this person is like the most absent-minded person in the world and knows nothing about it.

That was our professor.

So there you go.

I'm surprised they had a class.

Better than nothing, I suppose.

The book was good.

It was, I think, what did we read?

Was it Jay Fuenberg's book?

That's a good book.

I don't know if you've read that one.

How to Start and Manage a Law Firm.

It's a pretty lengthy book.

It's very old school.

I mean, it's been around for probably 30 years with different updates, but that's a good one.

All right.

So let's talk about the employer side of things.

Sure.

I hear all the time people reaching out to me, law firm owners, how do I find an associate?

They don't even know where to start.

So you've got a law firm out there.

Let's say they've either they're a settler or maybe they have one or two attorneys.

You need to find somebody.

Obviously, one option is they could call you, right?

Sure.

But what are some other options that they have to find candidates that actually work?

Yeah.

I mean, you work your network right off the bat.

Go for the low-hanging fruit.

Work your network.

Go to local law school career services offices.

Maybe people that somehow got left behind in the placement process or graduates that are looking to...

goes out to alumni that are looking to switch practice areas.

You can advertise on Indeed, on LinkedIn.

Just know those are active candidates.

What do you mean by that?

So they're...

And, you know, I'm not trying to toot the horn of recruiters too much, but that's the value that we really bring is we have relationships that we've cultivated for years and we also go out and headhunt and attract passive talent that is fine where they are, but we're able to pitch them on a compelling opportunity.

They take the meeting, you know, it ends up wowing them and they make a move.

If you just throw an ad up, you're going to get people that are actively looking.

Half of them are actively looking probably for valid reasons.

There are a subset that are looking for, you know, reasons that you wouldn't want necessarily to hire them.

Maybe they got to let go or they're on their getting forced out.

Correct.

Or job hopping, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I will tell you, we've hired from a variety of places.

We've used you a couple of times.

I've placed stuff on LinkedIn, Facebook.

I've done the word of mouth.

I've done it all.

And, you know, again, it's been a mixed bag.

I mean, sometimes the online posting works.

Right.

Sometimes it draws nothing, like absolutely nothing.

And I'm like, am I doing something wrong?

Like, is there some bad, like glass door review about me out there somewhere that I didn't know about?

Because literally nobody's applying.

And then other times you put a listing up and it's like an avalanche of resumes.

Is there a, what's the best time of year for law firms to be looking?

Is it end of year to beginning of year when people are maybe looking to make a change?

Yeah, generally, you know, January to May.

Because the associate got their bonus.

Yeah.

I'll tell you, I had a lot of times where I would put a listing out in the summer or something or in the fall and you're interviewing.

It's like, wow, you know, it's almost December and I've already built all these hours.

I get my bonus.

Right.

And it's like, again, that's short sighted thinking because if your bonus is, let's say, it's $10,000, you have an opportunity that could set you up for success for the rest of your career.

What do you take?

And that's really tough.

I think an important point is to be proactive and to really know your business and what's coming down the pike, and to start to prepare and not be reactive.

When you need someone, then you need someone.

You and people around you are drowning.

And so then you're kind of in panic mode and you've got to find someone quickly.

So, I've seen a lot of law firm owners post about this about hire before you actually need them.

If there's not a full plate but there's three-fourths of a plate, and you're confident that you're going to be able to continue to grow the business, then probably pull the trigger.

Yeah.

And we've hired people that way.

On the attorney side and the non-attorney side where people have reached out to us and I'm like, wow, it's really hard to find good people, especially on the paralegal and the legal support side to where you get them.

You might want to go ahead and scoop them up.

So one of the things that I think is really a challenge with the job listing is, I have found that there is not a great correlation between resume and whether it could fit at your firm.

A lot of it has to do with culture, are they a fit, and maybe this, I'm sure this applies to all law firms, but it's particularly true at smaller law firms.

They've got to fit your culture, and it's the benefit of a recruiter, right?

I mean, you can kind of person looking for an associate can reach out to the recruiter, say, this is the kind of person we're looking for, and then the recruiter kind of filters that out.

I mean, if you call the person, you're like, this person seemed great, but after that conversation, I can tell they're not going to be a good fit.

You're saving the attorney time and a potential bad hire, but do you have any advice to lawyers when we're, okay, we're in a situation where we know the resume isn't going to be a great metric for whether they're going to be a good fit?

Like, should I do an interview that just asks complete non-legal questions and asks about their personality and work ethic?

I mean, what should people do?

So I'd say know yourself and your firm and know the characteristics that make up the lawyers that have been successful that you've hired.

And then go mining with questions in your interview that mirror that through a behavioral interviewing process, which you may need, your folks may need some training on.

We do that at Stone Search Partners as part and parcel, if we help kind of define the interview process and even do some training if folks need it.

So that's one thing.

And then I've actually had some clients that use industrial psychologists that take a baseline on their high potential people and come up with their whole thing.

And it's a more expensive process.

It's a more laborious process.

It turns some people off on the Canada side.

I was going to say that, yeah.

I mean, I've seen people do that with non-attorney staff and attorneys, where they create like this psychological test.

And there's whole companies out there that advertise this, that they will do this and when you talk to people that go through it, the almost universally, they tell me it feels weird.

They're like, they don't and a lot of times, it's like before they even get the interview, it's like, hey, come and do this test.

And it's like, it just feels weird, you know?

And I don't know, it feels like the lawyers sitting there in their ivory tower being like, if you want to come and work for me, you have to pass these hurdles and do these things when it's, that should be collaborative and welcoming and that sort of thing.

I mean, I like to interview people and just ask all sorts of weird questions.

You know, like, the last book you read, what types of things you like to do in your spare time, movies, you know?

Right.

To try and get an idea of who they are, we've, again, we've hired people who've looked great on paper and have not worked out.

Yep.

And on the flip side, we've hired people who haven't looked as great on paper, who've been awesome.

And so, you know, you've got to do that interview and go through that.

You have any red flags, you know, that you advise law firm owners on that, hey, this is something that you might want to avoid?

I mean, certainly a lot of movement, you know, within a short period of time.

You know, if their level of experience doesn't really match their years, you know, what's going on with that?

Just anything that just seems out of place, really, or erratic.

Because, you know, I mean, as lawyers, we couldn't be more linear people, right?

So it's pretty easy to spot someone that's got, you know, a little veer here or veer there.

And again, lots of times, very viable explanations.

Right.

You know, illness in the family, you know, something going on you got to take care of, but poke at it a bit.

You can do so respectively.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we do that if there's a gap or, hey, what happened, you know, what was going on during that time period?

Was there anything, you know?

And a lot of times they'll say it's a personal issue, and, you know, there's a family member that was sick or whatever the case may be.

But you want to find out if it was, oh yeah, I got fired and it took me three months to find a job.

It's like, yeah, I will tell you one thing.

What?

I want to get your perspective on this before I tell you mine.

What's your thought on references and people calling references?

I think largely it's a waste.

No, like, very first person I hired was a Craigslist paralegal.

When I say Craigslist paralegal, put a job listing on Craigslist.

This is how far I've come, Steve.

Hire people on Craigslist for $10 an hour.

But she had references on there and I called them and they talked her up like she was the greatest thing ever.

She was terrible, absolutely terrible.

When I say terrible, not a terrible person, but just like not a great fit for what I needed at all and wasn't really capable.

And I found the same thing with attorneys as well.

And I think some of it comes from, you know, people just wanting to be nice.

You know, they don't want to say anything bad that's going to ruin somebody's career opportunities.

So I don't think you're ever really getting the full story.

And you don't list someone as a reference unless you fully expect them to say nice things about you.

Right.

You know, where I've seen references, you know, pan out is when somebody puts a reference down and they call and they just get lit up.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, you didn't even have the good judgment to call the reference and say, hey, I'm going to list you as a reference.

Like, what do you think you might say?

Yeah.

That's a good one.

Yeah.

I mean, I have found too that, I mean, even when they're not listed as references, if it's just a law firm on there and I know somebody, I will tell you this, if you know somebody who works there, a lot of times they will give you a better insight into what happened.

Like, if it's somebody you went to law school with and you call them up and say, hey, you know, I saw this person worked at your firm and they'll be like, oh yeah, it was this huge drama.

You know.

There's back channeling that goes on.

And most of the time, 99% of the time, confidentiality is still respected, but yeah, I'd be careful with some of that.

Yeah.

And I mean, too, if you call and they say, I'm not allowed to talk about that, it's a red flag, right?

Or I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

It's like wink, wink, nod, nod.

I mean, more firms now, though, they're just doing the neutral, you know.

I can only, well, we-

Confirm dates of employment, et cetera.

And I've got a couple of firms I'm working with on career transition, counseling and coaching.

So they're being let go for whatever reason.

Some of it is work-related performance.

Some of it's not.

So you have people that are in there that, you know, maybe you wouldn't want to hire, and then some people that you would want to pick right up.

So, and the firm's only willing to, you know, give a neutral reference.

So what I tell the lawyers in that respect is, particularly the ones that, you know, are good lawyers and not being let go for any work performances, like get your narrative down and own it and wear it like a, you know, comfortable leather coat that you've worn for years.

Because, you know, if somebody tells you a story and they feel comfortable and not defensive about it, it doesn't raise as many red flags as if, you know, yeah, and we came to the conclusion this just wasn't a good fit and, you know, we both decided to part ways rather than, yeah, and it was uncomfortable and this and that.

So, you know, know how to tell your story.

Yeah, the biggest advice that I would give to employers, too, is to trust your gut.

If you interview somebody and you have some reservation, don't put it aside.

Don't try and get confirmation to make you feel better about that reservation.

Just trust your gut and a lot of times whatever your gut's telling you is the right thing.

Sure.

What about flexibility?

Remote work versus hybrid?

You know, we, I think to recruit people now, you have to have some level of flexibility.

You should.

Because you're competing with law firms that may be offering either fully remote or some sort of hybrid structure.

We do a hybrid.

We do a 3-2.

And we have a few people, like my paralegal lives in Loganville, so she comes in one day a week.

We've got a couple of employees that live out of state, so they're, of course, fully remote.

But I think that that's a good balance, because you're getting people in the office enough, it helps build the culture, it helps build the mentoring, but a lot of lawyers, especially, you know, old school lawyers, I think of myself sometimes as an old school lawyer, think you got to be in the office.

What's your current advice to employers about their work from home schedules and policies?

Treat people like adults.

You know, there are actually a fair amount of old school partners that loved when the pandemic hit, and the return to office mandates their firms are putting in place aren't working because they're not going to show up.

Have some flexibility.

If you can, do a hybrid.

But you've got to get by amongst everybody.

You don't want the young associates coming in and there's no one to train or mentor them.

Right.

And that's a waste of time for everyone.

But again, I think treating people like adults and having some degree of flexibility and a hybrid nature of work, you know, and maybe it comes with a little time because you also want to encourage, I think, younger lawyers to be in the office more.

Not 100 percent, but the best way to get the best cases and to learn the practice from experienced practitioners is to work alongside them, not through a screen.

Sure.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think that's, I mean, sometimes I have cases with lawyers on the other side and, you know, they're very inexperienced.

And some of the things that happen in the case are just real head scratchers.

And I've talked about it with, you know, other plaintiff's lawyer friends about what seems like an overall decline in the quality of lawyering on the defense side.

And for any of my defense lawyer friends listening, it's not you.

You're doing great.

But no, seriously, I mean, there are some people where you're like, what is going on here?

Like, and I think what we've attributed to is a lack of mentoring and training that just, it's getting worse.

People are bouncing around from firm to firm.

Law firms are looking at these associates as like commodities.

Like, you're no different than anybody else.

I just need a warm body in here to fill this role.

And then that's why you get people taking needlessly long depositions.

I had this funny post on LinkedIn yesterday about something, because I was reading a deposition transcript, and our client was in a car wreck, and she treated for like three years.

I mean, and it's still treating.

And there were questions about certain dates of physical therapy.

She's like, I don't remember the exact dates.

It's been a long time.

It's been three years.

I don't remember the exact dates.

And she's like, do you have the records?

She's like, I do have the records, but I need to get on the record what you remember.

It's like, no, you don't.

Like, that's not a thing.

But then also, when they were asking her about the wreck and where it happens, so she lives in Tampa.

She's driving on 75 with her family and gets in a wreck.

And the lawyer is asking her, where on the interstate was it?

You know, was it here?

Was it there?

What was it close to?

Did you see any landmarks like a Chick-fil-A sign?

The police report has the latitude and longitude like that is.

It is incredibly accurate on where this wreck took place.

And it's like, I'm like, do you...

You read it, it's almost like he must not have the police report.

But like, of course he has it and he's read it.

And it's just the strangest thing, but you see stuff like that time and again.

And there's this...

It's just an inability to see the big picture.

You know, on the flip side, I'll give a shout out to what I think is a great defense firm, is Huff Powell and Bailey.

We had a trial with them last year, and they do a great job of training and mentoring their associates.

In fact, one of the defense witnesses, who was an expert on a key issue, they let a younger attorney do the direct examination of that expert.

It was her first time ever doing it, a direct examination of an expert.

And, you know, even the judge told the partner, he's like, a lot of people wouldn't have done that, have allowed that to happen.

And so, you know, I think the law firms that are gonna do the best in this sort of new world, a new structure, are gonna be the ones that are willing to train and mentor, but then also give a little bit of a leeway to understand, it's not gonna be the way I would have done it necessarily, but you've got to let them sort of grow into that role.

So when it comes to retaining people, what are some best practices that law firms can employ to make sure their employees are actually happy and stay with them?

Yeah, I think checking in with your people on a regular basis is the first, and not just assuming that everything is hunky-dory.

Have your review cycle, but a lot of informal check-ins.

How's it going?

What's going on?

What are you working on?

Challenges, successes, talk to them about how they're doing.

Assess their mood, assess their body language.

You can get a lot from that.

Yeah.

And know the market.

So there are, since the pandemic, probably, no doubt, 400% increase in recruiters.

So your folks are getting called.

So know that they're being recruited.

So know the market.

And I've had a lot of smaller firms that have had to do this, and it hurts, but you have to do it.

They're hiring a new person for me, and they've got to pay them X.

It does not align with the internal equities that are already existing within the firm.

They have to revamp their entire compensation system.

Yep.

Yep.

But sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

So know the market.

And yeah, you know, and a simple question is, you know, is there anything that we could be doing better to support you?

Yep.

That's a great question.

You know, it's funny on the law firm compensation side of things.

I cannot tell you how many people, because I mean, I would imagine people and the bigger law firms are probably more plugged into it.

But on the plaintiff's lawyer side, I mean, a lot of times they don't have a clue what, I mean, one, they don't have a clue what people on the defense side are making or these big firms, but they don't have a clue how other people at plaintiff's firms are being compensated.

And so, their frame of reference is what they got paid 30 years ago.

Oh my God, I had this conversation the other day with one of them.

And that was exact.

Well, when I was here at 30, and I was like, okay.

Yes, I hear that all the time.

I hear people say, you know, well, when I was graduating, when I graduated from law school, I'm like, you graduated from law school in like 85.

Hey, I was in Tampa in 96.

My first job was like right around 40 grand.

I don't think that's market now.

It shouldn't be.

Maybe like the Public Defender's Office.

But yeah, I mean, the other thing that, you know, is interesting to me when I'm talking to lawyers is, it's interesting how they don't even know what like new college grads are earning, right?

I mean, because it also, that applies to the non-attorney staff who, and a lot of law firms are just underpaid.

We do our best to pay above market and, you know, we've raised our pay consistently.

But it's, you know, it's easy to get in that rut where things just sort of operate this way.

You don't want to kind of upset things.

You want to kind of keep it level.

But, you know, one, cost of living has gone up a lot just since 2020.

And two, you do run into that when you have to recruit people and you find out, hey, this person's earning X.

I can't bring them in as a new person and then be the highest paid person here.

That's not fair to the other people.

People talk.

Yeah.

And again, I mean, they're going to find out.

But even if they didn't find out, it just wouldn't sit well with me.

You know?

And so, you've got to be flexible and revamp your entire structure.

And sometimes you have to do that.

Well, I've got one final question for you.

And this can be one thing, three things, five things.

Any parting advice for law firm owners or employers about things that you just...

Maybe it's Steve's Ten Commandments or Five Commandments or whatever, where you're like, these things are just basic that are not being done or that you need to do.

Well, I mean, we've talked about a lot of them, about training and mentoring and being flexible.

But I think it comes down to caring about your people.

I know that sounds cheesy and cliche.

But listen, the law is a stressful profession and everybody gets caught up in it.

But at the end of the day, we're all facing our own challenges.

And to have someone that you're working with eight, nine, ten hours a day, that at least you feel that they have something invested in you, I mean, that's half the battle on the retention side of the coin right there.

Yep.

That's great advice.

A lot of that gets into the firm culture, right?

Being sure that you're set up in a way to support your people.

Well, thanks for joining us, Steve.

If people want to find you and reach out to you, whether it's to use you as a recruiter, as a coach, or maybe to look at some of the other services you offer, what's the best way that they can find you?

I'm at www.stonesearchpartners.com.

It's sstone at stonesearchpartners.com.

Obviously, check me out on LinkedIn.

You can reach me there too.

Excellent.

Well, thanks for joining us, Steve.

This has been a very thoughtful discussion.

It's very educational for me to talk to you.

Every time I talk to you, I feel like I learned something new.

Thank you for our listeners for tuning in to the Championing Justice Podcast.

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