Episode 24: Radio Advertising for Law Firms with Gary Sarner

This month on Championing Justice, personal injury attorney Darl Champion sits down with legal marketing radio expert and ROI 360+ founder Gary Sarner. 

Darl and Gary discuss radio strategy and community involvement, why building a memorable brand matters, and what it takes to stand out in a crowded industry, especially as major firms pour millions into advertising.

→ Learn more about Gary and ROI 360+ here: https://roi360plus.com/
→ Connect with Gary on LinkedIn

Watch this and other Championing Justice episodes on YouTube: Championing Justice video episodes

Additional Resources:

Learn more about The Champion Firm, Personal Injury Attorneys, P.C. here.

Learn more about Georgia tort law cases and topics here.

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Transcript

Thank you for tuning in to the Championing Justice podcast.

My name is Darl Champion.

I'm the founder and owner of The Champion Firm.

We are a personal injury law firm located just outside of Atlanta, Georgia.

This month, I'm very excited about our guest.

It's Gary Sarner.

So Gary does know a ton about radio and that's the way that he brands himself.

That's the service that his company provides.

But I think the most important thing that I've learned about Gary is his knowledge extends far beyond radio.

And he has a lot of experience in the personal injury industry and can really talk about a variety of topics.

And so we've engaged some on social media and talked about things.

And I'm really excited about having him on to talk about the current state of legal marketing, what works, what doesn't, and where he sees things going in the future.

So thanks for joining us, Gary.

It's a pleasure to be here and I'm excited to learn even more about you.

Well, I'm excited to learn more about you as well.

One of the things that I've learned is you're a native Atlantan, is that right?

So I grew up in Atlanta, moved there when I was 10.

And I can't say it was the best growing up experience because I was asked where my horns were way too many times as a young Jewish boy moving to the south from New York.

Wow.

We never discussed that.

Yeah.

Well, I hope that things have changed in Atlanta.

It's probably very, very different now than it was when you moved here.

I'm not trying to age you and determine your age.

But tell us a little bit about what you do and what is Roi 360 plus?

So, I grew up in Atlanta, yes.

My father was in consumer electronics and he built his business advertising on the radio in Atlanta.

At about 16 years old, I started hanging out at what was then WQXI 94.1, which is now Star 94.

And I would be in the studio just listening and watching the interaction of listeners with the DJs.

And I was enamored with how radio worked.

I never planned on getting into radio.

But when I left college and I ended up in Miami, two weeks after I got here, my dad asked me if I wanted to go back to college.

I said, nope.

He says, okay, mom and I are moving to Miami.

Business is sold.

No employment contracts.

You need to go get a job and move out of our apartment.

I was like, whoa.

And I called his friend who ran Star 94 or WQXI, and I said, Mark, what is it you do that you don't work weekends?

Because growing up in retail, my dad worked every weekend, even when he had his huge successful chain, he was always at a store or traveling.

And my one goal was to not work like that.

Well, needless to say, Mark gave me some great advice.

I met the great folks at Y100 here in Miami, and took me about six weeks to get the meeting, which I was never granted, I just showed up for a meeting.

And Jim Knowles took me into his office, he says, wow, you're a diamond in the rough.

You need to meet with our GM.

I waited for that guy for three hours in the lobby at 20 years old, and I got hired with probably the best line I ever used in my personal or professional life.

He's looking at me and he's like, 20 years old, quit college, you have no clue.

Said, can I ask you one personal question?

He's like, sure.

I said, do you invest in the stock market?

And he says, I do.

I said, you should make an investment in GES, three grand, and in 90 days, you're either gonna make a fortune or you throw it away.

What do you think that guy did at the moment?

Invested the money?

1987, there were no computers.

Made a call.

He got up, excused himself, came back 18 minutes later.

There's no such stock as GES.

I said, oh no, I want you to invest in me.

Those are my initials.

He says, you're on.

And I got hired for $250 a week in February of 1987 and had what I would say the most amazing career in radio that I ever could have imagined.

So when you started out, were you selling ads or selling advertising space on radio?

There was no training.

It was, here's the phone book.

Started letter C, nobody's gotten this far.

And the last eight people that sat at this desk didn't make it.

Good luck.

And I watched some video tapes on radio.

I got lucky.

I started going after video, audio and computer stores, which were just computers were just starting to get big.

And I made a first sale, first appointment, utilizing how my dad built his business, because I didn't know anything about what I was talking about.

And I walked back into the radio station with a check for $10,000.

And Jim says to me, where did the commercial, I think he said spots, where do the spots go?

I said on the radio station.

He says, where?

I said, I don't know.

He didn't even taught me anything.

And that's when they finally started to work with me and really helped me hone my skills, which over time I learned was more about the people you were in front of than the potential people you could reach.

So let's talk about that time period in mid to late 80s.

Was there much attorney advertising on the radio then?

Absolutely zero, zero.

And TV advertising for law firms started approximately 45 years ago.

So a little bit before my time.

And it was on TV.

You know, you had phone books, how to be reached.

And those kept expanding to double truck ads, front cover, magnets on it.

I mean, it was how can the attorney be seen and be known when something happened.

The stories I've heard from speaking to, let's call them the old timers in legal marketing.

If somebody invested $10,000 on TV, the phone rang off the hook.

Now, granted, you go back that far.

Cable hadn't penetrated the market yet.

So it was really ABC, NBC, CBS.

Fox was just getting going.

And a couple of independents like TBS in Atlanta.

And obviously, over time, it has evolved.

And where I ended up with my radio advocacy, because I don't even love the term ad agency, was I ended up at a conference, a legal conference, and noticed there wasn't anybody doing radio the way we were doing radio in the state of Florida.

And I'm sure we'll get to that progression.

Yeah.

Well, so if attorneys weren't advertising prominently on the radio when you started, when did you see that shift?

And when did attorneys really start getting into radio?

And when we talk about attorneys, I'm talking about personal injury attorneys.

I mean, I don't know that I've ever heard many, I mean, you'd occasionally hear like the mass volume, family law or the high volume bankruptcy practice.

But for the most part, it seems like it's always been personal injury.

When did that start becoming a thing on the radio?

So I don't know that it was ever really a thing.

I was in the radio station in 2013, and I worked for sports, alternative, adult contemporary, and at the time, oldies, which is now called classic hits.

Like 60s and 70s are gone now, it's 80s to today.

Yeah, the music I grew up with is now in that category.

And there was a firm advertising on the station that was having an issue at the radio station.

Management gave it to me because I knew the family.

I didn't know the particular law firm.

And I put my coat and tie on, I make an appointment, I go up there, and this guy's in jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops.

When you come to my office, we have fun.

And he literally leaned over the desk and pulled my tie down.

And we just had a really good conversation about what was going on.

And like on your credenza, he had a stack of paperwork behind him.

And the best salespeople in the world can read upside down.

And if it's on my desk and it's at the top, it's open to be seen.

Don't move a piece of paper though.

That's where I hide things.

But I said to him, I said, those invoices, do you check those?

He's like, nope, my people love me.

But I said, if you don't inspect what you expect of your marketing, they are moving your stuff around.

Long story short, he says, okay, smart ass, why don't you audit one of my TV stations?

And over 53% of his inventory was running wrong.

He turned bright red when I came back three weeks later.

You're my new ad guy.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

But I did monitor his spot times for him for several months and eventually did become his external ad guy for the rest of the market.

He was doing predominantly TV at the time.

And we made a shift, which later on, radio stations started doing what was called a TV share shift.

Take some of your money from TV and put it into radio.

We're going to reach more people more often.

Well, that's what we did originally, he and I.

And from 2013 to 2021, I was blessed to have a partner in marketing that actually opened up their books and spoke honestly about what was happening.

The typical salesperson in media, they hear one of two things.

I had a great month, I had a shitty month.

I got to see firsthand number of leads coming in, number of cases being signed, number of cases being rejected, how intake, which I hate that word more than anything in the world, worked and really understood my first client's business intimately.

And then together, we worked on plans, trying so many different radio stations, iterations on radio stations, personalities, to where we found a formula that just worked better than others.

And on February 15th, 2021, in the middle of the pandemic, I got a call from my employer that said, we need for you to give up the marketing of this firm and just focus on us.

And I said, hmm, I'm going to go from one of your top sellers to one of your top clients.

And I sat down with Mark, and he basically funded my business, said, pay back when you can.

Let's go.

You got something special here.

So by April 1st, I was open, 2021, and I was just Roi 360 plus.

I was going to handle TV, you know, car dealers, law firms, air conditioning companies, whoever might want to work with us.

Well, us was me.

It was just me, me and a couple of spreadsheets, trying to figure out how to build a spreadsheet.

And the guy that handled his content was a friend of mine.

He's like, oh, you should come down to this conference with me on Miami Beach.

It's generally in January, but because of the pandemic, it's in May.

You could buy a ticket.

National Trial Lawyers.

I'm like, okay, I'll buy a ticket.

And then I got a room and I was like, oh, this shit's expensive between the ticket, the air, the hotel, and then all the drinking that goes on at these conferences, which I have since cut out.

And I showed up and I run into my dear friend from high school, Joe Freed.

I knew Joe was a lawyer.

And Facebook reconnected us several years prior to that, probably 08, 09, and we had seen each other several times.

I'm like, what are you doing here?

He's like, better question is, what are you doing here?

You're the radio guy.

I'm the trucking attorney.

And, you know, Joe introduced me to several people.

Obviously, he is one of the best human beings I've ever met, but also one of the best trial attorneys in the country.

And he knew everybody.

He laughed at my shirt that I was wearing because my better half got me to buy, and I'm not very loud today.

This one's subdued.

My better half got me to buy nine of them to wear at the conference to stand out.

But what I learned there was everybody I met did digital, and if they did any top of the funnel marketing, it was TV or billboards.

Nobody spoke about radio, and Joe helped me anoint myself the radio experts.

And I changed my name as soon as I got back to my office.

So, middle of May, I went from Roi 360 Plus to Roi 360 Plus, the radio experts.

And I decided I would not work with car dealers, I would not work with AC companies, and that I was going to help personal injury law firms grow the way Anajar and Levine did over the eight and a half years, that I had the honor to really work with them and watch a business explode because of two things.

And this is where most people miss it.

You must market somehow some way, and you must do great legal work.

Because if you don't do great legal work, and your cost per acquisition is rising, and your average fee sucks, it's not a sustainable business model.

Well, we've talked about that a lot, and I will add something else to that.

There is a tendency for a lot of higher volume firms to really overlook potentially high value cases.

I mean, I cannot tell you how many, like I have a slip and fall case right now that I think is a seven figure case.

It was with one or two other advertising firms, and they did nothing with it, and both of them withdrew.

And they just kind of go through the motions, oh yeah, you know, the insurance company came back and said, they didn't have notice of this dangerous condition, we're just withdrawing.

And nobody ever really investigates it, because they're looking for the low-hanging fruit, they're looking for the easy case.

Those days are gone.

Like maybe in, you talked about the $10,000 TV spin when that was a big thing.

I mean, maybe back in the day, you know, especially with a lot of the original Atlanta advertisers that have been around for a long time, there wasn't as much competition.

There was the few law firms that were on Billboards and TV, and then there was basically everybody else.

I mean, think about it also pre-internet.

Pre-internet, there was no PPC, there was no SEO, there was no social media.

And so I think the market has shifted so much over the years.

That's something you and I have talked about.

And I think now it's even more important than ever to do great work.

Well, tort reform across the country, which, you know, you and I have discussed at length, which is being led by the insurance companies.

And I think you posted something the other day on LinkedIn about the billions of dollars being invested by the four biggest insurance companies.

And you take all the personal injury law firms that market across the country, it doesn't even come close to what is being invested by the insurance companies.

I'm going to a concert at State Farm Arena tonight in Atlanta.

State Farm Arena.

There's no Morgan & Morgan Arena.

There isn't.

Not yet.

There's Morgan USC.

But there's multiple State Farm stadiums.

There's, you know, in Phoenix, where the Cardinals play, or wherever, you know, suburb of Arizona.

I mean, there's so much going on.

All state in Chicago.

Yeah.

The, and then you have casinos that put their name.

Like, it's funny.

In Miami, we have Hard Rock Stadium.

They can't say Hard Rock Casino because of the NFL.

But guess what?

They could run the advertising all over the place.

The official sports book of the NFL.

Right.

Nobody's going to Hard Rock for the food.

Nobody is going to Hard Rock.

This is about the restaurant.

One of the things that I've noticed a lot with radio, and I want you to talk a little bit about this.

There's this belief that, well, radio is dying, radio is going away.

People are listening to XM.

People are streaming on Spotify and other things.

But if you turned on the local radio station, I see, well, I see in here a ton of attorney advertising.

I mean, now on the screen, I don't know what you call it, but where the name is on the screen.

I see that.

While it's on the-

That's called RDS, Radio Data Systems.

And most people don't know what that is.

We have almost 500 of them across the United States for the attorneys we work for.

Because you guys, you're the only business in America.

And I challenge many people to find another.

Where you can make an investment in marketing today.

You can acquire a client today.

But you will not see one dollar in revenue on average for 14 months.

There's no other business out there.

We could go out, take this little big grip pen, market it, radio, TV, billboards, internet, wherever.

And over the weekend make an investment.

And on Monday morning see how many pens we sold and know exactly what our return on investment is.

You acquire a client on Monday morning, it might be 30 days before you even know how much insurance, if there's insurance, on the other side.

Right.

Well, in the bigger case, it's taking even longer.

I mean, when I get a medical malpractice case, we might be three to four years before we see a dollar of revenue.

In the meantime, we've got to staff the case, work it.

I think one of the things that I'm curious about is how do people stand out on radio?

I mean, one of the things I hear is in one commercial break, I might hear three or four attorneys advertising on the same station.

Is there exclusivity for some stations where they'll say, hey, you are the attorney for the station, we're only going to play your stuff or is it just a free for all?

Any exclusivity could be purchased.

It's probably not prudent to do.

Why?

Because there is no firm that is for everybody.

And if we were to think about it logically, there's one firm that calls themselves America's largest injury law firm that could afford to try that on a couple of radio stations.

But not everybody wants America's largest injury law firm.

Some people want to be able to speak to the attorney that they actually hired, which is an interesting thing.

And somebody posed this to me the other day.

How many lawyers do you have inside your firm, Darl?

Nine total, including me.

Nine including you.

Now, I don't want you to rank all nine because I'm sure each one of them has a strong suit.

100 percent.

But nobody ever picks up the phone and calls these advertising law firms and says, I want to speak to your best attorney.

Because who do they think they're speaking with?

John Morgan.

Or whoever's name is on the firm.

They're hiring the brand.

The brand is so crucial today.

I'll give you a funny story.

I was in a market three weeks ago, and this law firm handles cases for one of the marketing law firms.

And the client called the lawyer, and he called him by the marketing company's name, not his name, not his firm's name, but by the marketing law firm's name.

And I sat there and I was like, okay, let's just say he does the best job on this case ever.

He's still not going to be remembered because what was ingrained in the client's brain is the marketing law firm that he went to originally, who then gave the case to this guy, is going to get a referral fee.

But that's the brand he loves.

Why do you think, I mean, this is something that I always struggle with is, you know, my law firms, I would, I mean, it's a mid-sized personal injury firm.

It's probably depends on the market you're in.

In some smaller towns, it might be considered a large personal injury firm, but, and in others, maybe it would be considered a small one.

But I think that I always struggle with, how do people end up hiring those law firms so willingly without actually verifying things?

For example, Morgan & Morgan's Yelp reviews, their star rating in Atlanta is 1.6.

It's 230 reviews and they are horrible.

I mean, the things they talk about, you know, and I've taught the people at some other advertising firms in Atlanta, and they'll tell you, I get calls from four or five Morgan & Morgan clients a month that are firing them and hiring me because of how bad the service is.

But how is that sustainable?

How does that work?

But, okay.

So on the flip side, they also happen to have some of the best trial attorneys out there across the country.

They do?

So it goes back to communication, communication, communication.

So we're going to use your example of their 200 and something reviews, and they're not good ones for the most part, for their stars to be that low.

I haven't looked at them.

I have no idea.

But I bet if I pulled it up right now, 90% of those are about communication or lack thereof, which is the same story for every firm across America.

And then you take the firms that do PI and workers' comp.

Most of the negative reviews are on the workman's comp stuff, not on the personal injury.

Nobody, I've not seen somebody say, the result this firm got me sucked.

Now, I have seen some on some smaller firms where the firm got more revenue than the client got in recovery.

Shame on them, shame on them.

That should not be the model.

But communication, communication, communication is the key to everything.

You as a lawyer, as a great trial lawyer, are still in the people business.

Your client has absolutely no clue how to get through what they're in.

The easiest thing to do is for that person who may not have called a law firm, might have gotten a call from the other person's insurance company and said, Oh, we're going to pay you, we're going to help you, we're so sorry this happened, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Well, that's not the way to handle it.

You should be represented.

No different than you should be represented by a business attorney when you're doing contracts.

Lawyers need lawyers.

I want to pose something to you.

This is a dilemma I have.

So 11 years ago, started my firm, actually 11 years ago today, I started my firm and my goal was let me represent as many people as I can.

Obviously, within the bandwidth that we have so that I can market to those people and I'll get referrals from those clients.

Over the last 10 years, I think there's been a shift in the market and I haven't, I don't know that there's a way to test this, but because of how saturated the market is, particularly in Atlanta, and because of how prevalent the advertising is, and also the stigma has gone away.

Like whatever stigma existed in the 80s when attorneys started advertising is largely gone for a large percentage of the population.

I get the feeling that it's harder and harder for me to get client referrals because a few things are happening.

One, the opportunity isn't there to make the referral.

I think that maybe 10 years ago or longer, people didn't hire an attorney as quickly as possible, or maybe they were more suspicious of the advertising lawyers.

There was an opportunity for the friend to be like, oh, you were in a car wreck, call Darl, call this other law firm.

I think people are hiring attorneys quicker.

I think they're hiring some of these advertisers quicker.

But one story I told them the last podcast episode I have really resonated with me, and it was a client that I represented seven, eight years ago.

Got her a really good result.

I personally handled her case.

I went to mediation with her, developed a great relationship.

About two years ago, she called me and said, Darl, I was in another accident.

Morgan and Morgan is my attorney.

I can't talk to anybody.

I don't know what's going on in my case.

I want to fire them and hire you.

My first question was, why did you hire them in the first place?

The response was, their advertising is everywhere.

I thought they must be good.

Well, let me ask you this.

From the seven years ago where you got that great result for her, number one, did she feel that that was a great result?

She did.

Number two, over the next seven years, how many times did you touch her?

A lot.

So one of the things we do, we do a monthly mailed newsletter that goes to their house.

We do email blasts, we do birthday cards with Starbucks gift cards.

I mean, we do a good job of marketing to our herd.

One of the things with her case that was challenging and she knew this was a good result was there was limited insurance and we got the defendant to make a personal contribution out of their own pocket, like $50,000.

We cut our fee, like we did everything on that case.

I mean, that case was like the textbook example of, I'm like, this is why I do what I do, so I can do a great job and get referrals.

Not only did I not get a referral from her, I didn't even get her own subsequent case.

I don't know how much that might have happened because I can't test it.

How many times has a former client of mine maybe tried to make a referral?

And they say, oh, I must have one so, or oh, I'm this.

What I have found an uptick in is when I have found an uptick in client referrals where the person is already represented.

And they're typically represented by a big advertiser, and the person is unhappy with the big advertiser.

And quite frankly, it is Morgan & Morgan a lot of the times.

And they are having a conversation with their friend, who is a former client of ours, and that's where it starts.

Oh, you're not talking to your attorney, you're having a hard time?

Call Darl.

So, I think there's been a shift, and what I want to know from you, with your experience in the industry, what do you recommend for firms like mine, I mean, that aren't on the radio, that aren't doing this sort of mass marketing, how do we combat that?

I am very fortunate that I have a lot of young attorneys that want to talk to me about how to grow their firm.

And I don't care if you are three days into it or 11 years into it like you are today.

You must own your local community first and foremost.

So if you are a church going person, temple going, there, little leagues, moms, schools, be in your local community first and foremost.

Because that A is affordable.

It's affordable.

You actually could touch somebody.

And again, let's just say it's your local church that you and your family belong to.

And whether you're a church going man or not a church going man, go to events, go to men's events, go to the sponsor, the women's luncheons, but be known right in your area.

Just like all the SEO and digital marketing agencies tell you the way you have to be online to be found.

You could be touched and be found by being present.

You have, you just had nine lawyers.

What are the eight other lawyers doing to help promote the Champion Firm?

That's a great question, Gary.

And honestly, that's something that I do think we need to work on.

Because I think the challenge that I have had as a law firm owner is, you know, 11 years ago, when I walk into that office and it's just me, there comes a point where you have to grow from, this is just me, I'm everything, I need to be everywhere, I need to be the only one doing things, to you need to spread your reach out.

And I haven't always been the best of that.

I'll admit that.

And it requires giving up control, it requires trusting other people.

And for me, it happens in fits and starts.

I mean, sometimes I'll go through a period where there's growth and then it stagnates.

And then maybe you backtrack a little bit, and then there's growth again.

It's a constant evolution, but I think that you mentioning that is a great point.

And that's something that my marketing director and I are going to talk about, because we do need to really spread the reach of our firm and make everybody be kind of a mouthpiece for our firm to try and grow it.

Watch this, you brought up the marketing law firms from the very beginning of this conversation.

I would be speaking as a trial attorney to every principal inside those firms so that they think of you first.

I mean, look, we could sit here and put Joe on the pedestal he deserves to be on.

But guess what he is, the trucking expert.

Now, are there other trucking experts all over the country?

Of course, but if you were to pick one name, his name probably gets spoken of more than anybody else's.

Now, he is a phenomenal, phenomenal attorney.

He is a better human being.

And he himself says, if you need help, reach out to me.

I may not find all the answers myself, but I will make sure you get them.

Sure.

So within your own market, and there are obviously going to be lots of attorneys listening to this podcast, if you're a trial attorney who's not marketing, go meet every one of those marketing firms' principles and take them out for coffee, lunch, cocktails, dinner, and get your unfair share piece of what they're sending out, because they are acquiring those cases.

I'm going to give you an example.

By the way, Gary, I may not have helped my cause, because I just, I don't know if you, this was on some of the legal news publications online.

I just filed a lawsuit against one of those last week for malpractice.

So I may not be doing myself any favors.

Well, look, at the end of the day, we all have to do what we feel is right.

I hear complaints every day about some advertising out there that doesn't sound right.

And I'm like, OK, how do you want me to help you?

Well, what can I do besides a bar complaint where I have to put my name on it?

I'm like, nothing except it.

Or if that's what you feel is right, then go make that complaint.

But only you know the answer to that.

And for you to do something like that, you had to feel 100% sure of what you were doing.

Yeah.

It's not right or wrong.

It's how you felt about what was happening in that situation.

But doctors, the Kairos, the Neuros, the Orthos, you know, in you take a case, there's Cairo and PT that's done in it.

But most of your cases probably have pain management, Ortho or Neuro involved.

They do, yeah.

Those relationships matter, because those people are the ones touching the clients.

But I'm going to go back to a story about the mill per se versus the trial attorney.

I spoke at the TBI conference two and a half years ago.

There were 1800 people there to learn about traumatic brain injuries.

And then they had this marketing track with 11 people that were in there.

And I was on the stage, and I did what I do.

And a trial attorney comes up to me.

He says, wow, that was really interesting.

I had no idea.

He says, but I have a question.

Why do all these mill firms get all these great cases?

And there's really one answer and only one.

You know what it is?

It's because they're known.

Because they ask for people to do business with them.

You, trial attorneys, most do not market to the general public.

There's this stigma within your own community of trial attorneys that we're not like them.

Well, guess what?

And this is my whole thing 2025, 2026.

Trial attorneys better start being known somehow, someway, because this private equity money that's coming in is only getting bigger, and you're going to start seeing more mergers and more mergers and more big boys.

Yeah, I predicted the market consolidation for the last few years.

I think that's coming.

And I think when you look at what Morgan & Morgan does, I mean, the way they expand is they go into these markets and they essentially buy up a lot of the local firms.

And look what happened in your market in the last three months.

Yeah.

You've got a gal who I am very, very fond of, Jen.

She's a very dear friend and she did a merger sale.

However, it became Sweet James Law.

It's not Sweet James.

It's not Atlanta Personal Injury Group any longer.

Right.

Now, what does Jen Gore now have that she did not have before?

Money to market in a huge way.

Yeah.

And they put up over 100 billboards in Atlanta like that.

Yeah.

And they have systems, whether you agree or disagree with the systems, that make the law firm more efficient, which gives it more to invest in marketing, can acquire clients at a higher cost per acquisition.

And, oh, by the way, they actually do great legal work at Sweet James as well.

They have a ton of trial attorneys.

Yeah.

I think that the Morgan & Morgan model has shifted a lot of how the traditional advertisers work.

And you mentioned marketing to the advertising law firms.

I do think there's always going to be some opportunity there because they can't take every case.

And there's going to be cases too where they don't see the value.

And it's like the diamonds and the rough.

But for the most part, I think a lot of those referral opportunities are going away in the future, which is the importance for the trial attorneys to be known because so many are keeping their own cases.

And Morgan & Morgan pioneered it with having these trial attorneys.

And like as critical as I've always been about Morgan & Morgan, they do have some really good lawyers.

I've never been critical of the people.

It's their model that I don't like.

But I think you're going to see more of that, copying that.

But it's also going to be born out of necessity, because as the cost per acquisition goes up, they're not going to have a choice.

They're not going to be able to refer out this case and split the fee 50-50 with the great trial lawyer.

They're going to need to have the great trial lawyer working for them.

And sooner or later, those great trial lawyers that used to be outside and have their own thing are going to be working for those firms.

And I think over the next five years, that is going to be a major thing.

So you're right.

I think that small law firms like mine, mid-sized law firms, really do have to carve out their niche.

And their niche doesn't have to be a practice area niche.

It doesn't have to be a subset within personal injury.

But it's got to be something.

You know, is it they're known for doing really great legal work on complicated cases?

Is it they're the outsourced firm for firms that don't do their own litigation?

It could be a variety of things.

But let's talk about radio, because I really want to spend some time on that.

AM and FM, is what percentage is split between AM and FM?

Is it like 98% ad spend on FM?

Not at all.

So spoken word is so crucial.

So news talk and sports.

Now, over the last several, let's call it 10 years, you have seen sports and news talk stations take on an FM signal for, I don't want to say more reach because AM signals are actually better than FM signals.

But the way people choose to find things, FM is easier.

I mean, Tesla doesn't even have an AM radio in the vehicle.

So you either have to listen on HD1 or 2, or you have to go on to a listening app to get that AM station in a Tesla.

That's like iHeartRadio or something.

iHeartRadio, Odyssey app, there's tuning.

There's a bunch of ways.

And it's interesting, before we go deeper into this, I said to somebody last week in New York, the delivery method of what's coming from a terrestrial radio station is evolving, but it's still radio.

You don't listen to audio.

Podcasting is a separate piece of audio.

Podcasting is different than radio.

And today, a radio group announced that they are going to run a very widely listened to podcast at night on radio stations across the country.

So I'm excited for that.

Because that's going to broaden.

I want to touch on that.

I think that's a great point on where things are probably going in the future is, I think you mentioned the local talk radio, the local sports.

I can listen to music on Spotify.

If I want to listen to my country music playlist, I can pull it up on Spotify.

I don't need to go to 94.9 or whatever the local Atlanta country station is.

But if I want to hear, okay, what's going on with the Falcons?

I'm not going to hear that on XM, on the ESPN thing.

I'm not going to hear that on Spotify.

I need to tune in to, was it 92.9, the fan?

I need to tune in to that station.

The game, is that what it is?

The game.

92.9, the game.

Is there a station that's the fan?

680, the fan, is that it?

980?

Yeah, right.

One of them.

Yeah, but that's where I go.

So when I'm listening to radio, it is normally to listen to talk radio.

Quite frankly, sometimes I do the FM music stations just to hear the attorney advertising because I want to hear what's out there.

If an attorney wants to get into radio, so let's say a law firm comes to you Gary, and let's say that they're in a Miami, Houston, Atlanta market and they're like, I want to broaden my reach.

What do you tell them?

Do you tell them, don't get into radio unless you're willing to do these other things?

Do you say, hey, here's a niche within radio that you can get into, these one or two stations.

What's your advice to lawyers when they come to you like that?

So here's where I evolved from being in radio to having our ad agency.

Every radio broadcaster, TV broadcaster, billboard company is a partner of mine, and could potentially be a partner of a law firm's.

What we want to do is understand how the firm wants to go to market.

Now there are some firms that have been on TV for 39 years.

Back then it was the four stations.

It was easy.

You invested money.

The phone rang.

Well, the delivery of TV has changed dramatically.

The delivery of radio has also changed.

So, I want to understand first and foremost what is the firm done if it's nothing.

And we're going to use radio as the first piece of top of funnel marketing.

I want to know how much of an investment is it going to take to own the dial?

What is it?

Whatever is available.

And when you say own the dial, is it that particular station?

Is it a show within a station?

It is owning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, every radio station in the market.

Okay, so owning the dial is owning the dial.

Domination.

Domination.

Okay, that sounds expensive.

That is up to the law firm if it's expensive or not.

By the way, the first year of anybody's marketing is the worst year of any business' life.

Because the investment it takes to build a brand.

And by the way, I'll say this forever and ever and ever.

Marketing campaigns are measured in years, not weeks or months.

And if you look at what we call the most known brands out there in your field, legal, most of them have been marketing for 10 years plus.

Those that get on, and then I call them ankle biters on and off and moving around and trying, it's never going to work for anybody.

You need to be consistent.

People aren't in the market for a lawyer.

Nobody wants to hire a lawyer.

Nobody, until they have to.

And if you go back to when you opened up your law firm, 11 years ago, did you have a lawyer help you build out your business?

Just me.

You figured it out.

Learning how to...

I'm still learning it.

But you're not a contract lawyer.

Nope.

Okay, so when you leased or bought your building that you reside in for The Champion Firm, did you have a real estate lawyer?

I did.

Ah, you see?

Yeah.

But you never would have hired a real estate lawyer.

Yeah, the only reason is because we were buying a building and I realized I needed a lawyer.

Right, so you don't screw up something and don't end up with the deed one day.

Right.

They matter.

Sure.

The closing costs, the way the money flows back and forth.

So, I want to see what it takes to own what we're looking to do, whether it's radio, TV or billboards.

Then, some firms have said, let's go, all in.

Other firms have said, well, wait a minute.

I am not prepared to invest and I'm going to use this number, just to keep it simple, $100,000 a month.

Okay.

What are you comfortable and do you have in the bank for six months reserve to do this?

Oh, 50.

The brand is all that matters.

You must have a brand that people are going to remember when they go online and do a search.

Now, the best search is somebody types in the Champion Firm.

They come right to you.

Yeah, they were heard.

They're already interested.

That's a small number.

And again, we work with firms all over the country and we hear every day, why don't people call up and say they heard us on XYZ radio station?

Because that's not how the world works.

Ready for this?

What's your mom's phone number in the house you grew up in?

I know it.

What is Kayla's phone number?

No clue.

No clue.

You do know your daughter's number, right?

My daughter doesn't have a number yet.

She just has an iCloud account.

Your wife's phone number?

Yes, I know my wife's phone number.

Why would somebody remember your phone number at the Champion Firm?

Why?

Why?

Because they are connected to us and have a personal connection.

Okay, but you work with Kayla every single day.

You don't know her number.

Because I don't have to.

It's easily accessible when I need it.

I can search it.

It's in my contacts.

Oh, so a law firm that's marketing their phone number, everybody should remember that number.

Remember this though, 98% of the people who hear marketing or see marketing for a law firm have no need for a lawyer.

So what we want them to really know is who you are and what you do.

So when they do go to their phone and say, Personal Injury Attorney Atlanta, your goal is that they remember the Champion Firm.

And if your digital marketing agency is doing a great job, you're showing up in the LSAs, the GMBs, or your PPC.

Because that is where they're going.

Why do firms get 500, 600, 700 cases a month?

Because they market a lot.

And that's their business model.

They happen to get some really great cases in there as well.

I've heard people say, well, let's not look at the outliers.

Well, guess what?

The longer you market, the more seven-figure cases are going to come your way because you're known and trusted.

And people don't...

I've heard people say, I don't want to be known as that person.

If you're not known as that person, you better have a damn good way to get people to find you.

So do you have any clients that just do radio as their top of funnel?

They don't do Billboard TV?

We do have a few.

Does it work?

It does work.

And it's interesting.

I'm going to tell you a story.

I'm not going to tell you where.

But we are now working with two firms that use the tagline, one call, that's all.

You ever heard that?

Yeah, there's one in Georgia and one in another state.

At least one in another state.

There might be more.

There's five that are grandfathered in.

So, we met this firm and we started talking, and we're talking about building a brand.

And it's a two-name firm.

Not easy to remember.

And I started doing some research and I licensed for the firm that phrase because when I watched what happened in Wisconsin with Gruber Law, who's been using that for 39 years, and he is a rock star, it's Giannis, David Gruber, then Aaron Rodgers.

And they don't say Gruber Law, they say One Call, That's All.

So this is starting next week in this market where we're doing it.

It's going to be the most interesting test.

Nobody's going to know, they're going to advertise the firm name, but they're going to be known for the One Call, That's All.

And in Atlanta, that's been marketed no different than Wisconsin.

And Ken Nugent is an icon in Atlanta, in Georgia.

What is, do you have a threshold for clients that if they come to you, if they're not willing to spend, actually just tell them, spend your money elsewhere, buddy.

If you don't, don't even talk to me.

Well, I will talk to anybody and I will help anybody, because I have found that I love that purpose, that people do come to me and ask for my opinion.

But I will definitely be honest.

If you wanted to invest, and I'm just making this up, $20,000 a month in Atlanta, could you buy enough on a radio station to have a great campaign?

Yes.

But you've got to break through that clutter of other lawyers to be known.

And that takes time.

And it will happen.

But it's going to be 18 months to two years.

Wow.

Of investing $360,000.

Yeah.

Now, you're going to get cases along the way.

And again, your average fee, by the way, if you only do high-end cases and you take in cases and send them out, you could probably recoup and then get those big ones.

But I would probably say to somebody who's looking to do that, they probably did it on their own and tried it.

It didn't work because they didn't give it long enough.

And they say radio sucks or TV sucks or billboards suck.

Time heals everything when it comes to marketing.

The question is, can the business owner withstand that time?

One thing I say is you have to have patience.

But I also know that I'm going to be a professional handholder the day we start.

Because the patience will go away.

Hey, my phone didn't ring at all today.

Well, the other challenge, and we started off our conversation talking about this, we're the only industry where you can get a client today and may not get paid for one, two, three, four years.

Your marketing campaign, even to get the leads in cases is going to take a long time, and then to get the revenue.

We are talking about a very, very long game.

I've heard that John Morgan has mentioned at conferences that Atlanta was harder to break into than he thought.

It still is hard.

Atlanta is such a unique place, and you know this from growing up here.

It's more of a region than a city.

I mean, you get people, like if I, I say this all the time, like if I run into somebody at the beach during the summer, and I ask them where they're from, if they're from any of the Metro counties, they're going to say I'm from Atlanta.

They're not going to say I'm from Gwinnett County.

I'm from Lawrenceville.

They say Atlanta.

And that, I think, contributes to how difficult it is to break in here.

But the other thing is, you have some really well-entrenched brands that have been doing this for decades, that are the first thing that people think of.

And then you've got the upstarts that are coming in trying to market and advertise.

And that takes a long time to break through.

But the other thing I would add is, you mentioned it takes great legal work.

If all you're doing is you are the equivalent of a brand selling a generic product, you're going to have a really tough time in the next 5 to 10 years in the PI space.

I think a lot of those firms are going to go out of business.

I think they're going to end up selling their firms.

And that's where the market consolidation comes in.

Because if your unique differentiator is your marketing spend, you're going to get smoked in the future.

Watch this.

If I lined up 100 lawyers in a box so nobody could hear the other one, and I said, what is your unique selling proposition?

90% of the people are going to say one of two things.

You ready?

We care more.

We win more.

That's not unique.

What is unique?

And that's what I would love law firm owners to figure out.

Why do you stand out in your community?

What can you do different to be a better part of your community?

This is not easy.

It is really difficult.

And by the way, going on TV, radio or billboards and having a great digital plan does not mean you're 100% guaranteed success.

Because if you don't do great legal work or at least find the people to help you do it, the business doesn't work.

The math won't work.

Right.

Nobody.

And look, and I know you care about helping people like I do.

But we do it to earn a living.

We do it so we could raise our families and give our families the best that they could have.

I've got two kids that are taking the bar in July.

I don't know what kind of lawyers they're going to be, but I know they're going to be great people to steward in their communities in the law that they're going to practice.

Will they be great lawyers?

That's up to the firms that hired them and training them and helping them become better.

You have nine.

Do you really give your lawyers everything they can be to be the best they could be?

You trust them enough to handle stuff.

But my gut says if you could do every case yourself, you probably wish you could.

You know me well, Gary.

Well, by the way, it's not just you, Darl.

Yeah.

That's the mindset and becoming a business owner and a trial lawyer.

They are diabolically different.

Extremely different.

Before we go, Gary, it's amazing how fast the time passes.

We've been going for a little bit over an hour now.

Before we go, I want you to give some predictions.

And I love talking about, and this is probably my favorite segment of the podcast, talk about some predictions that you see in the legal field.

I know we've touched on a few of them, but what you see in the personal injury industry and marketing over the next three, five, ten years.

So just like there's consolidation in the personal injury space, consolidation is starting to happen in the ad agency space for personal injury lawyers.

Private equity is knee deep into this.

You are going to see less and less experts out there in the personal injury world because they're all going to be scooped up.

And there's probably going to be three or four major players.

Just like there's going to be three or four national names in the PI space.

There's always room for the small guy.

Do you know why?

Or girl?

Do you know why?

Not everybody wants to hire the biggest firm.

People matter.

People matter.

Trust, likeability, understanding, communication, which still will generally lean towards the smaller person versus the larger person.

I say this a lot.

I walk into a room in my loud shirt.

50 people say, like that.

50 people look at me and say, I don't know that he's for me.

Who do I want to work with?

People that like the shirt.

Wrong.

I want to work with the 50 who I could earn their trust and respect and like me.

Because watch this.

We're going to put you on a pedestal.

We're going to call you one of the top five attorneys in all of Georgia.

Your clients will become your friends.

Your friends generally will not become your client.

So work with those who are your clients and become friends with them.

Because that can happen.

But generally, how many calls do you get as this top five attorney in Georgia from people who have asked for legal advice and then go hire somebody?

Probably a decent amount because I sometimes I don't know if they hired somebody else.

They just ghost us.

Again, being so known in the community that you be they could become clients and friends.

Grassroots always will top everything else.

And for the big advertising firms, the ones that really get into their community, they do better because they are known.

Having you have you have nine attorneys, they should be involved and they all can't live close to the office.

Have those people involved in the community under the Champion Firm.

Have them do a mixer with Kairos, Orthos, Neuros in their neighborhood to have those personal relationships.

Other than consolidation, because that's happening everywhere.

I mean, it's happening in medicine.

We handle medical malpractice cases.

We're seeing these hospitals coming in and buying up these smaller practices.

That's happening in legal, it's happening in ad agency.

Do you think a lot of the, do you think there is a future?

Not for the, because the small firm is a unique differentiator, right?

They're grassroots, they make the personal connection, they do great legal work.

Then you've got these massive law firms.

Do you think there's a space in the future for these midsize advertisers?

Yes, but you must be a trial firm as well.

I don't believe the aggregator is going to make it long term because the aggregator who's going to be up your ass every day on what's going on with the case is going to get annoying to guys like you.

I don't want your referrals.

And by aggregator, that's a term that I hear a lot of marketing.

Tell our listeners.

I'm talking about law firms that are marketing across the country.

They're the lead generations.

They're not really doing.

That's different.

Lead generators, that's a whole different business model.

And there's always going to be firms that are going to buy leads.

Are you buying a lead that somebody else already bought, though?

I don't know.

I don't know.

The legal field is going to be more and more about great legal work and great marketing.

I mean, it really does go hand in hand.

And it's going to take people willing to wait 12 months to two years to see it grow, or you better just have relationships with all these other marketing firms.

And again, back to what we said earlier, they're going to hire more litigation specialists.

Right.

So, yes, it's time to be aware of your surroundings.

And where do you want to be in five years?

And at the end of the day, most smaller to midsize law firms have never thought about their exit strategy.

My guess would be, you hope your daughter will go to law school and want to be a part of the Champion Firm.

At this point, Gary, I just hope my daughter makes it through high school.

She will.

By the way, I love my daughter.

She's wonderful.

So, Gary, where can people find you if they want to reach out to you, talk about radio, potentially getting into that marketing media?

Where can they find you?

So, we're on Instagram, Gary Sarner.

That's me personally, roi360plus on Instagram.

My cell phone, you can call me anytime, 954-560-6371.

And I call myself the most accessible person in media.

I only sleep about four hours a night.

We're on LinkedIn, but I'm here to help anybody.

I will have a conversation with anybody.

I will give as much information as I can to help somebody grow, even if we can't work with them in their market.

So again, I am at a point in my life where I want to give back more and be able to help people and even the law firms that we are privileged to work with.

My why isn't the law firm.

My why is getting people the proper representation.

So if we all help the people who are in need, everybody will do okay.

That's great.

Yeah, no, I love that, Gary.

Well, thanks for joining us.

Thank you to everyone for listening.

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