SPEAKER_00: What is up, everybody?
SPEAKER_00: Hey, welcome to our Reflections Podcast.
SPEAKER_00: And uh this episode, I'm calling it well, I think I'll call it uh you don't have to know who's right to know who's right.
SPEAKER_00: I love that title.
SPEAKER_00: There's this story in John 5 where Jesus is talking with the Pharisees, and the Pharisees, if you don't know, they're these religious people, they're experts in the law, they know the scriptures, they have it mostly, if not entirely memorized.
SPEAKER_00: And Jesus seems to have it out with these a lot of them, not all the time, and not all the Pharisees were bad.
SPEAKER_00: There are some that were, you know, like any of us, I suppose, but there were some that he was just consistently kind of getting like bumping up against and they were giving them a hard time.
SPEAKER_00: And and uh there's a scene though where Jesus finally like kind of like he sort of calls them out and he tells them this.
SPEAKER_00: He says to this group of Pharisees, he says, Hey, you study the scriptures diligently because you think in them you have eternal life.
SPEAKER_00: And these are the very scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
SPEAKER_00: In other words, like you guys are studying these scriptures that point to me, and you're doing it because you think you can find eternal life in there, but I'm here, I'm the giver of life, and you don't come to me.
SPEAKER_00: You refuse to come to me, and therefore you don't have life.
SPEAKER_00: Just before this, he says this.
SPEAKER_00: This is crazy.
SPEAKER_00: He says, And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
SPEAKER_00: Like the Father's got my back, he says, but you have never heard his voice, nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, uh, for you don't believe the one that he sent.
SPEAKER_00: In other words, he's saying, like, hey, you guys are like, uh you guys are doing all these things that look good on the outside, but you really don't even know God and uh the one whom God has sent, which is me.
SPEAKER_00: I'm the bringer of life, and you're missing the whole point.
SPEAKER_00: Like the Pharisees knew the scriptures, but they still didn't have eternal life.
SPEAKER_00: That's funny because the people in the gospels who Jesus speaks most sternly to, like the ones he's like the most stern or harsh with, is religious people, right?
SPEAKER_00: Not the sinners, but it's the religious folks who who have the scriptures, who know better, but consistently miss the point, or use the scriptures to like to like twist and to oppress and to marginalize people, not to love.
SPEAKER_00: And it's often uh it's often Jesus and these religious folks who are at odds with each other on a number of occasions.
SPEAKER_00: And it reminds me of this saying that I I said I love it.
SPEAKER_00: It says, you don't have to know who's right to know who's right.
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to know who's right to know who's right.
SPEAKER_00: Like, have you ever watched an argument or like two people arguing and thought, good grief, I don't even care who's technically correct anymore?
SPEAKER_00: Like the way you're both acting makes me not want to be like either of you.
SPEAKER_00: Like we all we all know someone too who who who knows the Bible, who calls themselves a Christian, but is just mean or nasty.
SPEAKER_00: Like some of the meanest people that I know are religious Christians who know the Bible, but they don't have life.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't have to know who's right to know who's right.
SPEAKER_00: When I was in seminary, I had this professor who was incredible and very uh controversial.
SPEAKER_00: He was challenging, he challenged the norms of institutions, of seminary even itself, and even like theological ideas.
SPEAKER_00: And he was very, I he was very attractive for me because I loved that he was kind of pushing up against a lot of these foundational ideas and truths and things we all hold held dearly.
SPEAKER_00: But there was something about him that I just I don't know if I trust this guy, and he was very smart, one of the smartest guys I've ever known.
SPEAKER_00: And um, and man, I went down the rabbit hole with him and and really began to buy into a lot of the things he was saying.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not I'm not ungrateful for it, I'm glad I did.
SPEAKER_00: But here's what happened.
SPEAKER_00: After I left seminary, I watched him from afar, and I watched him have like uh implosions of his relationships.
SPEAKER_00: And um, he was eventually fired from the seminary.
SPEAKER_00: Um it was sort of rumored that uh his marriage kind of fell apart, and like this Christian professor who was espousing all these beautiful theological ideas, his own life was an absolute mess.
SPEAKER_00: And I remember thinking to myself, gosh, I I loved his ideas, but I don't want to be like him at all.
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to go in his path.
SPEAKER_00: Uh I don't want to live the life he's living.
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's something there was a disconnect there.
SPEAKER_00: And I love watching, you know, debates amongst Christian theologians, but sometimes it's just a little bit too much.
SPEAKER_00: There's this guy, though, that I found, his name's John Lennox, and he's an incredible debater because when you watch him debate, he genuinely seems to love the people whom he's debating.
SPEAKER_00: So like he'll debate against like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens or these people and other staunch atheists, but he does it in this way that's just it's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_00: He's not condescending, he's never arrogant.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, he seems like he really loves the people he's debating.
SPEAKER_00: I and I love it.
SPEAKER_00: Like I want to be like that guy, or I'd want him to be my grandfather or something like that.
SPEAKER_00: But somewhere along the way, it's like we we begin to prioritize being correct over our character, like being right over being good to each other.
SPEAKER_00: And it's, I gotta tell you, it's it's unbecoming.
SPEAKER_00: And this is why people can weaponize truth.
SPEAKER_00: Like, even though they're true, they'll weaponize the truth, or even though they're right, they'll they'll weaponize, like they'll they'll belittle others, they'll harm people, they'll prop themselves up in this arrogant, uh, self-aggrandizing kind of way.
SPEAKER_00: And it's because they've separated truth from actual action and behavior in the world.
SPEAKER_00: And and uh, but what if the way of truth wasn't just about being technically correct, but it was about a way of living or a way of life.
SPEAKER_00: Jesus says, I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life.
SPEAKER_00: Like the way he lived his life was truth embodied, and he was the way in life and these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00: And I don't always care who wins the argument, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00: I really don't anymore.
SPEAKER_00: Like the older I've gotten, like I just don't care who wins the argument, or sometimes who's even technically technically correct.
SPEAKER_00: I sometimes I don't care.
SPEAKER_00: I just want to watch someone's life play out, and then I can see, then I can see kind of, oh, who's right, you know, like whose life over time looks like love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and self-control.
SPEAKER_00: And that's the person who's kind of won me over.
SPEAKER_00: Like spiritual maturity is coming to see that how we behave is just as important as what we hold to be true.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's more important, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: And preferring to be good to others over being correct.
SPEAKER_00: That's true, uh to me, true spiritual maturity and true humility.
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to know who's right to know who's right.
SPEAKER_00: And maybe uh all of us should just have a little bit more humility when we're talking with other people or arguing, and maybe we should let others' lives speak maybe louder than the things they say that they believe, and and maybe we should really honor and kind of uphold people whose lives have really benefited, like have really uh been good and really have produced the fruits like love and joy and peace and uh patience and these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00: And maybe those are the kind of folks that we should venerate and really um uphold and model our lives after.
SPEAKER_00: So all right, uh yeah, love you guys, peace.
SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you enjoy this show, I'd love to have you share it with some friends.
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget you are always welcome to join us in person at Central in Elk River at 8 30, which is our liturgical gathering, or at 10 o'clock, our modern gathering.
SPEAKER_00: Or you can check us out online at clcelkriver.org.
SPEAKER_00: Peace.