SPEAKER_00: What is up everybody?
SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is Ryan.
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to our Reflections podcast.
SPEAKER_00: I was remembering the hey, when I was younger, I was like about, I think it must have been about 19 when I really began to kind of get into theology.
SPEAKER_00: And I began to read all these books on theology, and I I started to like have some verbiage for what I thought was true about the world and God and how I read the Bible.
SPEAKER_00: And I began to like construct this really clear, crystal clear like theology.
SPEAKER_00: And I remember I would have conversations with people that would not always agree with me.
SPEAKER_00: And I can vividly remember how upset I would be when they wouldn't agree with my theology.
SPEAKER_00: And it felt like I don't know, it felt somehow almost personal.
SPEAKER_00: Like they weren't just disagreeing with my theology or my ideas, but with me.
SPEAKER_00: And I'd get, I would notice, I'd get like, you know, my heart would begin to race, I'd get nervous, and and um I'd get upset, and I would, and and the thing was it wasn't very pleasant for anybody.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so I I felt like they weren't just disagreeing with my theology, but with me, like something was wrong with me, uh, or I I don't know, I was like, I was wrong, or I was maybe not as smart as I thought I was, or some days I just felt like, gosh, maybe I'm just a total loser or worthless, which is like, gosh, that's a long, a long way.
SPEAKER_00: You just went there, Ryan.
SPEAKER_00: I know.
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, how does that happen?
SPEAKER_00: How do you go, how does it go from someone not agreeing with my theology or what I think about God or the world to all of a sudden I feel like I'm totally a loser or worthless?
SPEAKER_00: But I don't know.
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever noticed like today, our disagreements feel kind of like that these days?
SPEAKER_00: I mean, not just frustrating, but these disagreements almost always feel or even have some sort of element or thread of the personal.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's not just a disagreement, but it's it's a personal.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like when someone doesn't agree with your thoughts or ideas, they don't just disagree with your thoughts or ideas, they disagree with you, like personal, like your politics, your faith, your parenting style, your take on culture, like who's a better superhero, Batman or Superman?
SPEAKER_00: Of course the answer is Superman, but if you don't agree with me, then you don't just disagree with my ideas of a Superman, you don't agree with me.
SPEAKER_00: Um, like are the Beastie Boys a good band?
SPEAKER_00: Are they a band?
SPEAKER_00: Rap group?
SPEAKER_00: Uh is Taylor Swift really a good artist?
SPEAKER_00: Are the Beatles overrated?
SPEAKER_00: You know, these kinds of things.
SPEAKER_00: When someone doesn't agree with your thought or your opinion, it's like they're it's like a sudden personal attack against you, not just your idea.
SPEAKER_00: And so suddenly your chest tightens and your heart begins to race, and you're like thinking, oh my gosh, why do I feel like I'm being attacked here personally?
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know if you feel like that these days, but here's what I see in myself when I was young, and even now, like for me, uh somewhere along the way, the things I thought got tangled up with who I am as a person.
SPEAKER_00: So, like once that happens, once the things that you think, your ideas, your beliefs, your theologies, your opinions about movies or books or culture, once that happens, disagreement, it sort of stops becoming this robust con conversation or even, you know, like building each other up.
SPEAKER_00: It becomes more like a threat and a personal attack.
SPEAKER_00: And there's a word for this that I love.
SPEAKER_00: It's in psychology.
SPEAKER_00: It's the word uh get your pencils ready, it's the word enmeshment.
SPEAKER_00: It's when things that should be connected but distinct kind of get fused together.
SPEAKER_00: They become enmeshed.
SPEAKER_00: So this happens a lot in relationships where like a husband and wife they get married, and um, they should be connected, they're married, but they begin to like sort of absorb each other into one being, which is hard.
SPEAKER_00: You can't tell where one person ends and the other person begins.
SPEAKER_00: That's called enmeshment.
SPEAKER_00: Or like they they lose their own identity in the other person.
SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like, oh, I mean, that's healthy, it's not actually healthy.
SPEAKER_00: They should remain distinct while being connected.
SPEAKER_00: And so it's the same with us and our beliefs.
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have beliefs, I have opinions, I am not my beliefs, and I am not my opinions.
SPEAKER_00: Can you see the difference?
SPEAKER_00: Um like I'm not enmeshed with my ideas or my thoughts or my opinions.
SPEAKER_00: When I become enmeshed with them, now suddenly I am my opinions.
SPEAKER_00: I am my ideas.
SPEAKER_00: And when those are attacked, suddenly now I'm attacked.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, this happens all the time in theology.
SPEAKER_00: Uh, when you're talking about a political candidate or any hot button topic, your ideas become who you are.
SPEAKER_00: And so if you question my beliefs, or if I question your beliefs, now it's like I'm questioning your intelligence or your morality or your worth as a human being or or your own belonging.
SPEAKER_00: Like, no wonder we get so defensive or get so upset or cling to these ideas as though it was an idol in my life.
SPEAKER_00: They actually are kind of idols.
SPEAKER_00: And no wonder conversations feel so explosive and like unhelpful.
SPEAKER_00: And no wonder listening feels like almost impossible.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, fair enough.
SPEAKER_00: This is like the and the reason this happens, I think, is is partly anthropological, because we live in a world, and if you rewind time to like generations ago, um, identity, still to this day, but even way back then, when you're like-minded, it gives you belonging.
SPEAKER_00: I mean, beliefs become sort of markers, and this is why we wear shirts with our beliefs on them, or we have banners that it's almost like a tribal banner.
SPEAKER_00: Like, this is the banner I'm flying in my tribe, and this shows I belong to this tribe.
SPEAKER_00: I wear patches, I have, you know, a flag from my group, or I have a, you know, a statement or a slogan.
SPEAKER_00: These give us a sense of belonging.
SPEAKER_00: Like this is my tribe, these are my people, this is where I'm safe and where I belong.
SPEAKER_00: And so if my belief is challenged, it feels like I'm being kicked out of the group, I'm being exiled, and I'm losing my own belonging.
SPEAKER_00: That happens all the time.
SPEAKER_00: And also, beliefs like they give us a sense of structure in the in the chaotic world.
SPEAKER_00: For me, when I was younger, my theological beliefs really help me have a sense of safety and um like understanding who I was and who God was.
SPEAKER_00: And it was not a bad thing.
SPEAKER_00: I was a kid.
SPEAKER_00: Well, 20, I don't know if that's a kid or not, but I feel like a kid.
SPEAKER_00: But I was 20.
SPEAKER_00: But but beliefs give us this sort of structure in a chaotic world.
SPEAKER_00: And if my beliefs collapse, um, what else might collapse with it?
SPEAKER_00: This is why some theologians or Christians don't change their beliefs as they get older.
SPEAKER_00: Because, like, look, if you pull on that thread, it's a house of cards, the whole thing will collapse.
SPEAKER_00: And so they feel like if you challenge their beliefs, you're challenging their certainty, their safety in all of life.
SPEAKER_00: I heard this story about this guy who was online, because look, online digital life actually sort of fosters this and um and really pushes rewards, you know, clickbait, and it punishes nuance or complexity.
SPEAKER_00: And so, so there's this guy who had he thought the world was flat.
SPEAKER_00: He was like a flat earther, and he began to kind of and he really he really did.
SPEAKER_00: He began to create this little online presence of about espousing the flat earth view, and folks began to kind of come around him in this online platform area, and he began to build like a little club online of other flat earthers that grew.
SPEAKER_00: They had a conference, it became like hundreds of people.
SPEAKER_00: He found a girlfriend, they fell in love, and about two years in, he had a massive huge following.
SPEAKER_00: People were like there was a community being built, they all are gathered around this idea of flat earth, and two years in, he reads this study that convinces him he's wrong.
SPEAKER_00: And oh no, the earth is not flat, it's round.
SPEAKER_00: And now he's like, What am I gonna do?
SPEAKER_00: So, and there was a documentary, I think, on Netflix about this.
SPEAKER_00: He actually doesn't do anything, he maintains the belief because he says, I was in so much love with my girlfriend.
SPEAKER_00: I had these friends I never had before, I had this community of belonging, I didn't have it before, and now I have this.
SPEAKER_00: And if I change my beliefs now, I'll be kicked out of the tribe, the tribe I started.
SPEAKER_00: So he just goes back and pretends nothing changes.
SPEAKER_00: It's wild.
SPEAKER_00: So, what's the answer?
SPEAKER_00: The problem is not that we have ideas, the problem is when our ideas become um these sort of load-bearing walls for our own identity.
SPEAKER_00: When I become enmeshed with my ideas, when my when I my ideas become who I am.
SPEAKER_00: So the healthier way and the healthy way to sort of resist enmeshment is another fancy word called differentiation.
SPEAKER_00: And I believe we've talked about this on the on the podcast before, but but differentiation means that you can you can like like I am married to my wife Katie, but I am not my wife, Katie, and she's not me.
SPEAKER_00: I have my own identity, I'm me, but I'm married to her.
SPEAKER_00: And so there's this differentiation between her and I, though we're connected.
SPEAKER_00: So it can be the same with our beliefs or our opinions.
SPEAKER_00: I can I can hold these strong beliefs and even be passionate about them, but I am not my beliefs, I'm differentiated.
SPEAKER_00: I'm remaining, and I can remain, ideally, the the trick is emotionally separate from them.
SPEAKER_00: This is also helpful in a marriage.
SPEAKER_00: Like if I if I every time Katie's in a bad mood, I become in a bad mood, that's a problem.
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm not, I'm not her regulator.
SPEAKER_00: I don't, I'm not the one to regulate her emotions.
SPEAKER_00: She has to do that, and vice versa.
SPEAKER_00: I have to I have to regulate my own emotions.
SPEAKER_00: Now I can help and support, but I'm not her emotions.
SPEAKER_00: And so if I can remove my emotional reaction to my ideas and my opinions, if I can take those out of there, then I can remain differentiated and I can remain separate from them in that in that way.
SPEAKER_00: And so I just would tell myself, hey, I'm not my own opinion.
SPEAKER_00: I'm not my thoughts, I'm not my ideas.
SPEAKER_00: I'm the one who has them or holds those opinions.
SPEAKER_00: And um and that and it works that way.
SPEAKER_00: Like like I like ideas and beliefs are like clouds that kind of pass by us, you know.
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not as transient as clouds, but I'm not the cloud, I'm the one watching the cloud as it goes by on, you know, if I'm on top of a mountain or maybe like a pair of clothes.
SPEAKER_00: If I if I I'm not my clothes, I can put on clothes.
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes you can change your clothes because beliefs might change over time.
SPEAKER_00: In fact, if your beliefs never change, then maybe, not always, but maybe you're not actually growing.
SPEAKER_00: And you can change your clothes.
SPEAKER_00: You can still love them and like have your preference for them and and believe those are like, hey, this is my favorite shirt, but it might change over time.
SPEAKER_00: And if someone criticizes your outfit or, you know, or the cloud you're seeing on the mountain, they're not criticizing you.
SPEAKER_00: There's this differentiation, it's not an attack on you.
SPEAKER_00: And so, from also from a faith perspective, like with theology, once I say, hey, my theologies are not who I am, I can also remind myself, hey, my identity, who I am, is entirely separate from that.
SPEAKER_00: Like my identity is in God and not dependent on what I believe.
SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's it's it's not contingent.
SPEAKER_00: Like God's love is not conditional.
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't love me because I have the right beliefs, he just loves me, which is also a good reminder.
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so here's what I would say.
SPEAKER_00: You know, going forward, remain humble with the things you believe and the things you think.
SPEAKER_00: And even change your language.
SPEAKER_00: And you can say, like, hey, this is how I think of this right now.
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I believe right now at the moment.
SPEAKER_00: This is who I kind of uh, you know, this is this is sort of what I'm thinking about right now.
SPEAKER_00: Um and uh, but you don't have to like, you don't have to be so rigid in in kind of espousing your beliefs.
SPEAKER_00: And you can let go of the fear, like, hey, I'll be kicked out of this tribe, or I'll be, you know, ostracized, or I will, I don't know who I will be anymore if I let go of this belief.
SPEAKER_00: And you can kind of just sort of hold them a bit more loosely.
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying don't have passionate beliefs.
SPEAKER_00: I'm just saying like just remember uh that you know these things you may not be right all the time.
SPEAKER_00: And so hold to them a bit looser and have a bit a bit of humility.
SPEAKER_00: And then notice when you have these disagreements, notice your own body, like this fight or flight mechanism kind of kicking in.
SPEAKER_00: Are you getting angry?
SPEAKER_00: Is your is your heart racing?
SPEAKER_00: Is your is your face turning red?
SPEAKER_00: Do you feel hot?
SPEAKER_00: If you are, that's your identity being attacked.
SPEAKER_00: So be careful and notice it.
SPEAKER_00: And then when you when you leave that moment, uh try to unpack what happened there.
SPEAKER_00: And then lastly, you know, like stay curious.
SPEAKER_00: Curiosity is always a sign um that your identity is stable.
SPEAKER_00: You know, be open to new ideas, read books you don't don't agree with, talk to friends you don't agree with, and be chill about it.
SPEAKER_00: Don't be, you know, you don't have to be so angry and uptight.
SPEAKER_00: And I know it's a it's a practice, but but stay open and stay curious.
SPEAKER_00: You might find some very interesting ideas out there that you didn't agree with initially.
SPEAKER_00: Um, defensiveness is a sign of fear and and and that your identity is sort of become enmeshed with that, you know, when you're yeah, when you get really defensive, it's like, whoa, what's that about?
SPEAKER_00: And so stay curious with that as well.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh, that's it.
SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh love you guys.
SPEAKER_00: Peace.
SPEAKER_00: Hey, if you enjoy this show, I'd love to have you share it with some friends.
SPEAKER_00: And don't forget you are always welcome to join us in person at Central in Elk River at 8 30, which is our liturgical gathering, or at 10 o'clock, our modern gathering.
SPEAKER_00: Or you can check us out online at clcelkriver.org.
SPEAKER_00: Peace.