#57 - Red Discard Matters - Archetype Breakdown

In this episode we're looking at the Red Discard Matters that's taking the MTGO Vintage cube by storm. We cover what do include if you want to run it in your cube, and why its awesome!!

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Transcript

0:03

Hello everyone. Welcome back to Powerful Nothing and Magic The Gathering Cube podcast. I'm your host, Dan, and as always, I'm joined by my co-host James James. How are you doing this week? You. Well I'm well I'm well. Yeah. Excited. Talk about some cube. It's always yeah, we have a fun episode for everyone today. Today I'm going to be talking about the red Discard Matters deck that's kind of been popping up in a lot of cubes recently. We're going to be doing one of our package archetype, breakdowns. This is the this is an archetype that we've kind of talked about a couple of times, primarily because it's just it's just been getting more and more cards printed for it over the last couple of years. And it does kind of there's always been like some support cards with like some very powerful support cards from yesteryear. But just there's been like the modern horizons and like a little bit of sprinkling of goodness on top along with some of your other cards, that really brought it together and made it a whole archetype. So today we're going to be going over, firstly, how you can add it to your own cube if it's something you want to, or maybe something you like the look of and you want to add, or if you know that the archetype is in a cube, I'm going to give you a base so you can get the most out of it in your games. James, first off, before we kind of get into that to deep dive itself, do you want to give us a quick overview of the Red Discard Matters archetype? Yeah for sure. So I think one of the things that's really nice about this as a theme is that you can it can be sort of as big of a small of a little package as you want it to be. Really. It works fairly well as just a sprinkling of cards that care about this theme, because there will already be some independently powerful cards, most likely in your cube that will work well with them. But if you want to dedicate more slots to it and lean into it a bit more as a full on archetype, that can work fairly well as well. And, it gives gives a lot of interest to, to drafts. I think. Yeah, definitely one thing with this archetype that kind of it's, it's definitely something that's kind of like snuck up on us as an archetype, I would say, because it's kind of just it's more just there's been a bunch of very powerful cards printed that have kind of become cube staples, but they have this kind of underlying synergy with like caring about cards, kind of discarding or going through exile, all these kind of additional steps and kind of like basically we're trying to pull it all together today. But yeah, James, I know you you've played a fair amount of the government where this where there's like enough is kind of had that little bit of sprinkling and is now kind of a thing kind of how does the deck play. Yeah. So I think for me this, this is a little package works very well in most aggressive planting that decks. I think it doesn't really need to be confined to a specific color combination. I think like like that black or red green. It got quite natural homes for it. But in general, I think an event deck with looking to play some cheap creatures, this can sort of slot into us a nice little package. And I actually really like that, that it gives me, very aggressive decks, something a little bit more interesting to do and just casting above eight creatures with haste at every point in the curve. And probably why I've leant into it with some of the cubes I've been building recently, is that I want that to be a very aggressive deck, but I kind of want it to be an interesting, that aggressive deck, rather than something where you just take all the features. Yeah, exactly. Just like from a. Yeah. From a design point of view, I always look for making my players do a little bit of something. It's not just a free of, just like I just take the red cards. I'd all or in the case of white aggro, I just take the cheap white guys. Kind of like you do need a little bit of something to bring it together, but it does reward the player for drafting it by giving you something more synergistic than Goblin guide into to equivalent Goblin guides. Yes, exactly, exactly. And it's nice that it lets you do that without having to put a million cards in your cube that only work in this very narrow thing, right? Like most of the cards we're going to talk about today are generically pretty good cards that just happen to make each other better. Cool. So the next section we're going to touch on is actually going through some of the independently powerful cards that you will see in this deck. Most of these are cards that see playing cubes anyway because they're just actually quite good. But the point of this archetype is kind of they kind of get together when they are combined, you know, synergy. We level that. The first one I want to touch on is a card. This really kind of just keeps getting better. I like I just keep seeing it pop up in more and more winning decks, especially my cape. And that's currency converter. It's a single mana for an artifact. Whenever you discard a card, you may exalt that card from your graveyard. It has two and tap it to draw a card. Then discard a card, and you can then tap it to put an exile card with currency. Convert it into your graveyard. If it's a land card for a treasure token. If it's a non land card with a two to black row creature token. This just this is really like one of those like glue cards. It fills so many holes in so many different decks. Like in an artifact deck. It can be, target for you as a saga. That kind of stuff is a good bit of card advantage, but in this deck specifically, it is a looter. It is a way of taking a card from a hand and putting it into the bin. But on top of that, it also draws the card. We love that and then gives us value while we're doing that, because it gives us the ability to make blockers or to then ramp us a kind of this episode is this is called red discard matters. We need something to discard. And this is a nice little engine that is very cheap. It's very, it's very free to put into a deck, especially in cube. And it kind of does everything that it really keeps the deck ticking over while rewarding us for doing what we want to be doing. James, what do you think of Currency converter? I, I know you have played a lot of this card. Yeah, yeah, I really like this card. Powerful card. You put it in cubes regardless. Good. In the artifact stack. But, the reason I specifically like it in this stack is, generally, currency converter is a powerful card, but can be a little slow. Like, in a lot of more high power level cubes, you don't necessarily want to be all the time. Like, play this on turn one, activate, turn two because you're not getting a creature treasure until two and three. In that scenario, you don't necessarily want to invest mana early light. If you're discarding cards for other reasons, though, you get your creature your treasure for free. Like if you go, turn one. This turn to cycle 11, for example, I'm immediately making a treasure. I'm making a creature on that second turn without having to invest any further, manage my currency converter. Even better if it's I'm discarding for free. Like, say I play this a turn, I play, Fable of Mirvac, and the next turn I'm going to vomit to my fable. I get my creature all my treasure without putting any more management. Pascal. Yeah. So very nicely fits the swaths of powerful cards that you'll put in your cube anyway, even if you had no other ways to discard cards. But if you do, it makes it a ton better. 100%. Talking of good magic cards, talk to us about indie games. This is a very strong magic in general, but in this deck where we're doing some discarding, it gets really bad. It gets much better. Yeah. For sure. So this is into center all of the sudden, will be familiar to you. Anyone who enjoys beating down with small that creatures. It's, one for two to. Whenever you attack. You may just got a card. When you do put a plus one stone counter on a target attacking creature and against trample on till on the fun. And whenever you discard one or more cards, exile the top card for your life. You may play that card until your next and step. So this really nicely fits with all of puts on a ton of pressure. By itself, the trample is a huge deal. It's going to cost you a ton of damage to be like hitting our creature based aggressive deck. Anyway, but if you are discarding cards for other, other ways than just this trigger, then you're going to be getting a ton of extra cards. Advantage like it's it's such a nice gravy to get on top of that as well, even if it's just 1 or 2 of a ways to discard cards in your whole deck is a you're basically getting a an extra card of it every time you do that. Right? So it's it's very powerful to, to give it that extra angle. And it means you don't have to be attacking to get value out of this. If your opponent has good blockers and you don't have an attack, you maybe still get some value out of your entire feel of discarding cast for other reasons. That's going to help you dig into your library. Find for me a little spell of if you need. Yeah, and similar to currency converter like it does work itself as like a self-contained package. But the fact that both those triggers are separate, they don't they don't have to trigger off each other. They can trigger when you, as I said, whenever you discard one or more cards, it's just it's very nice. They're kind of like it's a but by itself is a great aggro card with a bit of card advantage. But in this deck it is a great engine of card advantage. And that's kind of well, why why we do like this deck. Yeah. Next up in this archetype is a just a really bloody strong magic card. And it's fable of the mirror breaker. It's two in a read for an enchantment saga. I have to read quite a lot now. Chapter one creator two to read Goblin shaman witch token with when it attacks. Great. The treasure token chapter two. You may discard up to two cards if you do draw that many cards. And chapter three. You exile this saga and transform it. It transforms into reflections of Kiki Gigi. It is A22 enchantment which a golden shaman with one untap create a token that's a copy of another target non legendary creature. You can draw it except it has haste. So as I said at the beginning of the next instead to this card has just continually performs like I think this is quite a high pick in any queue. Like like in any unpowered cube. This is first pickleball quite a lot of the time and in Power Cube. But yes, you want power, but I think you'd still be fine taking this if like in a mid and in a middling pack, it's just a again, it's one card that gives you so much advantage by itself. It makes a body, it makes treasures its card advantage. And it also lets you copy the best creature that you have for one single mana. That's really, really strong. But again, in this deck where we want to be discarding cards, the discarding two cards, like again, we can we can curve out with currency converter now into this. And this just does everything. It's yeah, really really strong card. James, I know you love fable of the mirror break. I like off the winning decks. I see you post in, discord. Just have. Yeah, there's a fable in there. I love that. Oh, yeah. Cable's really messed up. You know, I don't need me to tell you why fables messed up, but having these sorts of discard outlets, which you would put in your deck anyway, is really nice as a way to power up the, the Start Masters archetype. So similar situation, I think of our next card, Fear of missing out. This is the one to read for A23 enchantment creature with when enters battlefield, you discard a card. If you do, and the cards. And when it attacks, if you have delirium, you untap target creature, other attacking creature and you get another combat stat. This is a pretty powerful card by itself. Two, three, two is a nice body. It's, it's giving you some selection and that delirium trigger will win the game. Will win a lot of games if you can enable that. Especially with the, the other big creatures you get and read stuff like in the stuff like Lillia getting that extra attack with one of them on the crucial turn is that that's often what swings are, right? Right. So pretty high on this card. What it does. So I discard my stack. Obviously a it's a discard, but also our discard massive stack, which is discarding cards for other reasons, is going to be better than most stacks. And they enabling that that delirium enthalpy or better from the average bed aggro deck. Anyway. Exactly. And for those paying attention currently we have already spoken about an artifact. We spoken about a creature. We spoke about an enchantment. This is an enchantment creature. Kind of like throw in a lightning bolt and you're basically already there. So yeah, very, very solid. Yeah. Very missing. Yeah. This does have combo potential, but that's not that's not as relevant in this deck. The next card is really strong. And there's a graph that you will see just generally in a lot of cubes is seasoned Pyromancer. This is one red red for A22 creature human shaman. When enters discard two cores, then draw two cards for each non man card. Discard. This way, create A11 red elemental creature token and it has three red red to execute. Creature card from your graveyard to create 211 red Elemental creature tokens. So again, it's three mana for two bodies and some really solid, like card filtering. It can really set up your next couple of turns while stabilize ING you and just giving you that board state. Also, this goes great into a hell rider because you've got three extra bodies on the board. We love all of that. And then the ability to get it back from a graveyard is also really nice because it is also an ETB. So so it's a way of kind of like double dipping, like like effectively think of this as like a big faceless looting. That's kind of a really solid way to think about this card. And yeah, very, very solid. Yeah. For sure. So and the next one on this is just continuing the theme of it is really easy to be discarding a lot of cards, and that's without costing yourself anything is just the land. Cyclers. So the, the Oliphant, troll of costumes, you could play the two minor ones if you want, but I really recommend it. And mostly it's, but these, bright cards you will play anyway for the fixing. So you can fetch dual lands and you'll pay them because some end times, you draw your land, fix a later, and you got to cast it as a creature. But this is just another way that you will put in your deck regardless, for will trigger your inches, trigger your currency, converses, and, get you that little bit of extra value. But you need. Yeah, they just continually continue to be great. I think they're kind of staples in the majority of performance that can run them. And yet they're fantastic. And cube, the next one to touch on is just like another card that is just seeing Thing Cube like since the moment it got printed. Abandoned standard immediately. Is Smuggler's Copter two generic for A33 flying vehicle with crew one, and when it attacks four blocks, you may draw a card if you do. Just got a card. We love looting in this deck, and this is just a such a free like this is like the cleanest vehicle for me. It's pretty good. And it got banished. And then it just goes in every day. And this is just a staple in any kind of aggressive deck. Just because it upgrades like it upgrades your token from your season Pyromancer or jumps a creature, the attack can no longer get through your opponent's board while also giving you that filtering. Just like that general bit of looting is right in any deck. The once the buff to a cheap creature. But in this like again where we are getting more advantage from the discard. Just any repeatable way of this of discarding and replacing them is really, really good. And some other sculptor. Yeah, it's a fantastic card and a real and a powerhouse in this deck. Yeah. For sure. Tough card, good early pick as well, because it's going to go in any deck with enough creatures to support it. And yeah, again gets extra points if you're, if you're getting some, some triggers out of discarded cards, the final ones aren't such fun here because they will be in your cubes regardless. In a lot of high power level cubes, these cards, like faceless looting and petty reunion. These I think can be good in this, these decks. But you do need to mean this a little bit more because these, these are not cards that you would put in your that beat down decks. Most of the time they have, they will be in your cube a lot of the time. But, but often for other decks. Right. I'll be there for Re-Animator or whatnot. So you do, I think, need to care about getting getting some triggers a little bit more of an with a lot of favor cards we've talked about here. Because just because they're not affecting the board vibe and not playing into your you'll be done on quite as much. But still powerful cards and can power up the stack a lot. And it's pretty free to include in the queue because I create and Re-Animator that Clay and a lot of other decks care about the graveyard. Yeah, these are just kind of staple cards and cube like. Like I think faith is, I think goes in every game. I think like Bitter Reunion is kind of like the like there's a bunch of other cards that do a similar sort of effect, like there's like Cathartic Pyre, I think, which I also quite like, which is, one on a read for, a like a lightning bolt effect to a creature or the loot, which is quite nice. Yeah. I mean, there's just a tormenting vice variant in this at this point. Yes, yes. With set mechanic. Yes. Yeah. Apologies. We have stopped talking about them on the set review. There's too many of them when they print a power crypt one we will, but until then, just a couple of cards. I'm not gonna go into too much detail as we finish up this section, because these are just kind of like, generically strong magic cards. But you have things like pierogi that gets better in this archetype because it's putting stuff into the graveyard. Pyro glyph gets bigger. You have Wheel of Fortune, which isn't going to be in every queue, but the ones it's in. It's just a bonus way of putting cards into the graveyard and drawing more cards for you to put them into the graveyard later. And then if you're in those more high powered environments, you also might have a thing like an LED, like a lines I diamond. It's a mana rock that discards your hand. Again, not for every cube, but it can be quite cool in that, especially if you're then also maybe doing an underworld breach. Maybe there's some cool stuff like this and cool lines if you're using like these are kind of cosmic views, your graveyard as a resource as well. And underworld under a breach is a red card. That kind of you could pick up, and it could be a solid way of getting back some some aggressive creatures or even burning them out. It's kind of it's it's not the traditional use of underworld breach, but it is a cool one. Yeah, I quite like some fabric shuffling, which can be quite fun. Exactly as intended. It's that. Yeah, I got my underworld breach and bosses twice. It's a great time for ogre, but yeah, so. So I think those are kind of like, those are cards that if you saw in a cube, you would not think anything of. And again, they synergize great with each other. And that in some people that could just be the synergy, that could just be the package. Like like like in a smaller cube, like a 360 cube. Maybe that is just like these cards are there because they're good and you can just draw them together. And because of that little bit of extra synergy that we've spoken about, okay, makes your red aggro deck more powerful, more aggressive. They kind of it gives it that little bit little extra spice. But now we're going to go over some cards that are specifically for this package if you want to support it. These are cards that specifically you are only really going to run if this is something you are trying to make work. And if you see this in a cube, if you see these cards in a cube, it means that this archetype is kind of being pushed, and it's kind of more what red or maybe like a red X adjacent deck is trying to do. James, I missed this card when it came out. I do want to talk us about Évora in sociable area, because this card seems really cool. Yeah, I've really liked this one, actually. I've put it in a couple of cubes now, and it's always done. Good work. So it's, one of the red for A11 live trample and when for answers and whenever it deals combat damage to a player, you create a blood token. And whenever you discard a card, you put a plus on some counter modifier. So I do think so. It does technically fuel itself, right? You hit them, you make a blood that lets you discard cards and it gets bigger. I think for this card to actually be good for you, but you do need other ways to discard cards, because otherwise you're relying on being able to have a good attack with your one one. On turn three, which is kind of tough. But if you have other ways to discard, then you can cast evolve next and you untap. You discard another card in some other way. This gets bigger, opens up an attack for you. For that, and that gets you blood back. Get to see more discarding that gets you more selection and it really snowballs quite nicely. And it's nice as well. But compared to like entryway or level where you have to like pay to get for extra power and toughness with this, you, you're just getting power and toughness by discarding cards save for further effects. Right. That's that part isn't mana gated, which is nice. You can also if you can discard cards, for instance speeds, then you can do this in combat, which is pretty good. Yeah. Really, really nice pay off, actually, of, for discarded cards, and being aggressive. But you do need some of the cards for enable this. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. This one isn't as like it's, it's sort of an engine, but just that first initial step is a bit trickier than something like. But probably because it starts as A22. This starts as A11 light. Hopefully you're like like there is a world where your opponent doesn't do anything in time until turn three. Maybe, but that's quite unlikely. In more powerful settings where this deck can still exist. So yeah, just having yet this needs that, that bit of extra help. But once you've got it rolling, it is a very solid engine like you. You only really need to get like one attack and then it kind of is self reliant. Basically you kind of always be above in theory, the care of your opponent is kind of is popping out. But yeah, very like I do like it. But what I've recently added to my cave and yeah, really, really solid card and another new one that I've really liked, is Detective Phoenix. This is a really cool card is A22 enchantment creature Phoenix. It has bestow for single read. Collect evidence six, which is a combination of multiple mechanics. Basically, if this is in your graveyard, you can bestow this, and that means equip it. Enchant it to a creature by paying a single red mana and exiling cards with total mana value six or greater from your graveyard. It also has flying and haste and trying to reach, I guess for Supersu. And it's flying in haste and you make cost effective Phoenix from your graveyard using this bestow ability. So what that means is that basically, if it's in your hand, it's a three mana, two to flying haste. That's a pretty solid body. We like that. But with the bestow and with the bestow, it's something that we can kind of quite freely put into our graveyard. And then later in the game, we can use it to jump one of our creatures. Basically, it becomes a aura that that you can equip to the creature. If that creature dies, we then get it in play because that's how bestow works. It works how you want it to. I've mainly played a lot of this in like Canadian Highlander Dredge where putting it on a hog that gives phenomenal. But we're now in a world where hog action cube and we can do that too. But in this Dex specifically, it's just it's like one of the things you do, and it's similar to, like, how the madness Dex used to work. But this Dex, the the timings on this deck are so much nicer to you. Detective Phoenix's fantastic card. Because if you need a free man, a beta is a three man, a beta. But if you want something to discard, it's also something to discard. That's not then dead. It's not something that kind of like, oh, if I discard my my goblin rabble master, that just goes to the bin, it's basically gone for the rest of the game. Whereas this can still have an effect later because it has that bestow ability from the graveyard. I really like I really like to. This has been a really strong card. I've been impressed with that ever since it came out. Shocking for a modern horizon three card. Yeah for sure, for sure. Yeah. No luck for Phoenix is. Yeah, just a nice thing to discard value. It sits in your graveyard and honestly, your opponent should be very scared of that as well. It's a great card because it's, it's just being the one mana to bestow for plus two plus two. Flying in haste is, that makes the next fact useful so much scarier, right? Like, even if it's just, like an entire allele or something. Just that's. Now check in with an extra two points of power and haste, by a way, is, really powerful and a nice little combo to call out for with this as well, which I think is very good. This with land Cyclers is quite nice because they, just they all have six CMC. They sit in your graveyard. It doesn't cost you anything to have many attack and that pays for your collect evidence costs, which is quite nice. That's hot. We like that. Yeah. Next one we want to call out was Annie's Ravager. So this is the two in a red for a three. Three. It's toxic. Combating able. Whenever it attacks, you discard your hand, then draw three cards, and it has madness. One and a vet. So worth calling out with this, you need to have a pretty low curve if you want to put this on five, because it's, it's at each turn available and discards your hand. You kind of don't want to run this out. If you have to have a bunch of cards left in your hand, if you meet that criteria, it's it can be very powerful. It's, if you don't have stuff you care about discarding, this is throwing you free cards when you attack. Plus, it has madness. So VM the curve of, say, let you play a, one of a two mana creatures that lets you discard. So like a until they fall away or something like that. Get your hits in you discard this you madness it out on that next turn is very very powerful. Also worth noting, mantis. Obviously you can play for instant speed if you're just got that license to speed doesn't necessarily know it's coming. When you get your good attack in, you get your value. Yeah, but this is a very nice card. And in the right back, you've got to be aggressive. You've got to be discarding cards. This is this this is below for, as just a very aggressive card. I think, like kind of the, the theme we have this ones in this, in this sort of tier is still functional if you're not discarding them like, it's still you could just play this, like, tap out, like play on turn, like I say, when you've emptied your hand next and you swing and you toss some cards, but it's think that it's below. Above you have a better free drops if that's all you're doing with that. But if you're discarding it and you're paying that madness cost, it's very, very powerful. Yeah, I really like this card. I think it's just been really solid. Like I am a bit higher than you, I think in just in playing it in aggro decks. But like, that's, that's because I see this is more is just. Yeah, but this is this I, I'm, this is just my top end, this drawing these cards. And like there's plenty of games we're just drawing where where, where. Oh all I want to do is draw and burn to finish off the game. But yeah, yeah, I, I love that and it's rather just really good and and really strong in this way because discarding your hand in this deck is an upside when like like especially if you have a bunch of cards you talked about at the start, like currency converter into these kind of cards are really, really good with Andrew's Ravager. And the fact that it's actually giving you more things to discard. Did I not get him off the game? Okay, turn off the turn. It's just great. We love this card. Yeah. Another cool card in this deck. Is conspiracy theorist. This is one on a red for two. Two creature, human shaman. I think I said both shaman and shaman in this bit in this episode, but don't worry about it. I will decide what I think is the proper one later. And when it attacks, you might pay one generic and discard a card if you do. DrawCard. Whenever you discard one or more online exile from your graveyard. If you do, you may cast it this turn. This is really cool. This is another one where those two clauses are separate. So so base level. It is a, it is a solid two mana attacker that can loot on attacks by just paying one manor. That's fine. This is this way. This feels very much like a red, merfolk looter. Because you have to do it when you attack. That's quite red. We love that. But then the second line of text means that this can just sit there and play and be a little engine piece like this. Turns the cards were discarding into playable cards. So it means that kind of like because the curve of the deck is generally quite low, like if we play this on, if we play this on turn two, then on turn three, we, we cast off like as looting or something like that. We can discard a card that we want to cast, and then we and then we're not down any equity. We haven't just again, it's similar to why I like Detective Phoenix. It gives us a makes discarding cards not a negative. We still get all the bonuses. It's like we still synergize with cards like currency convert to an into. But we get the ability to then like basically we have to have our cake and eat it with conspiracy theory. So we get to discard a card, we get all the value from discarding, but then we can still cast the card. We don't lose it. Like, that's really cool. I really like this card. Yeah for sure. This is fairly powerful. This essentially makes like every image into just drawing a card, right? Because you're guessing that card you discard back. And it's in some ways it's better than something like no where you're getting a new card off the top, because when you get any kind of top, you don't know if you can bounce pass at this time, right? Whereas with this you can plan, you can say, okay, I'm going to discard this land, play the land out of my graveyard, and there's no randomness there, right? I'm always getting to use that card, which is pretty nice. The challenge, if you don't have a voice discard card says you need to attacks gather trigger, and it's only A22. It's not giving you any more stats. But, if you can just sit back and discard for four reasons. This is a nice value engine. No. Yeah, yeah. The next one isn't one. I have seen as much. James. It's from Worn out. Talk to us about Veronica, dissident scribe. Yeah, this is a fun one. It's kind of a, a slightly bigger version of that, that attack and get value creature. So it's two and a read for a free three with menace. When Veronica attacks, you may discard a card if you do draw a card, but whenever you discard one or more non land cards for the first time each ten you create a jump token. So junk is the artifact where you, you suck it to like salvage top card and you can buy at this turn. This is quite nice because it's, it's a solid, like, slightly evasive body. It's getting you value on attacks. It's you can kind of think about this as drawing a card on attack, right? Because, you're getting your coffee. I just got back. I guess you can think about this is like you're making the junk token on the top while it's getting a little bit of selection. But on top of that, you're also triggering all the other stuff that cares about discard. And when you discard cards for three reasons, you'll get this junk token once you turn. This is nice. Like, obviously it's a free drop, has a lot of sort of value. Attacking features we've talked about are two drops, but, this is nice. Like to have the option at a different point in the curve. And I found it fairly strong when I first played it. I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever played with this card, but I love the look of it. And I do think it is what, like it's in this category, the kind of the, cards that worked well when we are trying to do this because bread three drops are normally quite powerful, like, this is a card like you are putting this in and you are playing this. If you are meaning it, you are meaning that you're doing this deck, at. But in that deck, I do think it is very good. Yeah. For sure. Like, it's not a horrible card if you were discarding cards for for reasons that's just. But better free drops exists in that scenario. So if you're putting it in your cube, you're probably putting in your cube because you're trying to support. Okay. No, definitely. The next card I love, escaped from under my decking and into my heart. Next up is ox of a bonus. This is a great magic card. Three red. Red for a for two creature ox. When it enters, discard your hand. Then draw three cards and it has escape with red. Red exile eight other cards from your graveyard. That means you can cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost. And the ox escapes with a plus one plus one count on it. So again, this is another very solid magic card that is both an engine and a reward card. Like this is a great card that kind of, helping trigger all of our cards that care about discard, because we are just dumping our whole hand into the bin and we are drawing three cards. The worst case scenario with this is we don't have cards to discard to trigger all of our stuff. But then guess what? We've still drawn three cards. That's wonderful. We love that. And then later in the game, if it gets traded off for all, we just discard it again. Like with like the detective's Phoenix or like the Andes Ravager with it's madness cause it's a card that we're fine putting into the bin. We're fine pitching it like I have a note later, but I'm also mentioning now, like a few years ago, we were discarding things like root wallets. I love free wallets. They are fantastic. But this is a great example of how this deck has just got better, because we're now discarding Detective Phoenix's and Andes ravages and oxy begonias instead of root wallows. And pains me so much to say that. But like this draws us three cards and is A534 red red in most of these decks. Like that's fantastic. Like, yeah, the ox is a great magic card. Yeah for sure. Awesome. Again, this is I love escaping alcoholic owners. I really don't enjoy casting arcs okay. That's most of the time. So, in a deck like this where you can just discard it for value, escape it later. It's a very nice option to have now. Definitely. And then our next section. James. So, so kind of we've we've gone over some cards that are kind of free to include, we've gone over some cards that are kind of more if you're looking to support it, but kind of like as a package should we say kind of like, like do you want to kind of like, like to exist in your environment maybe. Yeah, I got a 540 group, A 720 group where kind of like you're looking to have a bit of spice, a bit of extra flavor in these extra cards. I'm going to say these, these are kind of what turn it from a package into an archetype, into like what my red section is doing. I think that's a fair way of putting it. Would you agree, James? Yes, for sure. So most of because we talked about in the previous section where like maybe not completely optimal, if you weren't triggering the discard stuff and having other discard stuff going on, but they were still very functional playable cards in that scenario. These the cards we're talking about here basically don't work unless you're doing it, unless you're in this deck and you have a lot of discarding cards. Triggering. Yeah. And some of these cards are very, very powerful. We both have a bit of a sore spot, I think, for the first two cards. James, talk to us about squee, Goblin, Nabob, and Master of Death. James. Yeah. So squee Goblin above is, the two and of Ed for A11 say, not crushing the vanilla test, but at the beginning of your upkeep, you may return this card from your graveyard to your hand. So mostly with Joe, crisply as though we never cast it. All we do is we discard it for value. Say we have a loser rummaging effect. Beginning of our next upkeep is going to come back to our hand, and then we're going to do it again. And essentially it makes our first discard every ten, three because this isn't a real card, but we discarded it's coming straight back to our hand next turn. And there's no manner involved in any of that. Right. So it's, it's a very nice little way to enable a value engine. Master of death essentially does the same thing, but you have to pay a life to return that. It's actually a much better card if you cast it, but it cost blue and black, man, that. So we're probably not casting at very much of this deck. Yeah. These are obviously not playable cards unless you have repeatable ways to discard cards for value. But if you do have that going on and you're reliably using this as an engine of return, the these are actually can be quite powerful engine pieces. Yeah. And don't worry about them. As James mentioned, we're not really casting stuff, so don't master death isn't a damage card. It's a red card in this deck. But like I have cast them before, it is like, this is quite nice, but like it is primarily like it can be included in the, in, in a cube for like for some synergy with a graveyard deck, for example. But if you're doing this, this is a red card. Think of it like a red card. Don't worry about the mana value. It's fine. But talk another card that cares about red things. Next up we have anger. This is AI3 of the cycle. These cards are so good and two are so bad. But anger is a good one. Don't worry, anger is three and a red for A22 creature incarnation with haste. And as long as anger is in your graveyard and you control the mountain, creatures you control, have haste. So again, this is another card that is that we want like format of two to haste isn't a card that we want to because I like, I like I would almost put this as a zero drop on my cube list as a hint to my players. This is going in and go to the bin and give my deck value. And again, that is a bit of an ask. I like like but like it's why this is in the section of cards that you like. You have to mean this archetype for this to get in, because you don't often put a card in your deck, but you have no intention of casting, and you only want to go to the bin. That doesn't come up that often, but anger can be worth it just because of you could do that as early as time one does. Fate is eating. Act like mountain feathers, losing anger in the bin. Your whole deck having haste is phenomenal, like you're an aggro deck at the heart of it. You are an agro tag. Your whole about having haste is phenomenal, but like, not getting in straight away. Even, Evora insatiable er, getting in straight away gets around that thing of putting the first counter on it. It's fantastic. Yeah, I love anger. I run it in, I think so, and so many come on the decks, but if you want to play it in cube, this is the archetype for it nowadays. Yeah. For sure. For sure. There's, there's a lot of creatures that work well in this deck that have powerful attack triggers. So giving them haste is great. It means you're you're so much more likely to get that attack trigger, right. Like you're. And these Ravager having cases is kind of a huge deal. But, yeah, you never want to be casting this card, so, and you really have to discard it quite early on to get the value right? It doesn't actually help you that much. You just got down like, turn six doesn't make your board any better. So, you you need a lot of ways to be to be managing to make this card actually good. But if you have fun, it's cool. Okay. The next card we have is honestly like just one of my favorite cards in the last five years. I think it's sick. I wish, I wish this card was a legend, was multicolored in legendary. Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. That sort of exists. But but this one is specifically better. But yeah, so talk about containment construct. James. Yes, containment construct is two mana for A21 artifact. Creature constructs. Whenever you discard a card, you may exile that card from your graveyard. If you do, you may play that card as bad. So this is essentially the text that we have on the, conspiracy theorist. It doesn't enable itself. This card has no way to make you a let you discard a card. You have to do that with other cards. But honestly, I quite like it when there are more cards like this in cubes where the card doesn't solve its own mission, you know, it's you have to do a little bit of work to make this card good. But but it is good. It can really pay off. Like it doesn't say non land anyway on this stage, just like discarding lands, play the land verse ten. It can be a really nice little engine if you've got those repeatable damaging effects. Not a super aggressive card but can give you some good staying power if you're enabling it. But but that is the key. It's you need a lot of points to discard face cards be worth it. Yeah. Like this is my favorite type of engine card. Yeah. It's not the modern horizons. It's all in. You need something to do with this. But I think this card is great. And for anyone who's writing, I know Oska rubbish reclaim it exists as a demand legend version of this card, but the non land part is important. Bit like like I love this got like when you discard lands. Like when you fight this loading just like madness thing. Like just got a land play. Your land is like oh you're doing so much. The academic construct is a phenomenal magic card. I think talking about this. Our next card on the list is Fiery temper, bro. Temper is one red rage for an instant deals three damage to any target. That doesn't sound very efficient. But wait, there's more. It has madness for a single red, so in this deck, this is another version of Lightning Bolt and more versions of Lightning Bolt in your mono and your red aggressive deck is normally pretty good. You will still run lightning bolt. Do not get me wrong, you will probably do one chain lightning, but this is a this is a card like like we've spoken about this before on this podcast, and I'm a big proponent of customizing your flex slots to match what your decks are trying to do. So this is a like so red bone spells is a flex slot. There's a bunch of different effects on them including this. Like like like the non discard deck will probably consider running this card, but it's effectively it is a burn spell that you are likely to get because any red X deck is going to take the lightning bolt. This is a burn card that you can give to the player in this deck. As a little bit of a reward for being in this deck. I love our temper eye. A touch of man like a sprinkling of madness, I think is where this is the right amount for this deck. I don't think you want to be full madness cards because they haven't. To an extent though, the madness cards have not been power correct along with everything else, but fiery temper can still be a lightning bolt, and lightning bolt is still good even in 2025. Yeah for sure. Like we we don't have a ton of madness cards in these lists because basically we're talking about, a package archetype for a fairly powerful cube here. So not this cards just don't meet that criteria like size. I'm saying that this is not very good. Yeah, it's I read them, on the other hand, very efficient. We love to see it. And it's kind of building a lightning bolt, but it's actually way better than that. Right. Because if you say you attack with your in C and you discard this and bolts something that's a lot better than a bolt, right? Because it was a bolt that also let you discard it for free. I meant you didn't have to discard another card. So yeah, I think if you have enough, enough discard. This card's pretty good. But, you can do you need to minute because, you know, three mana deal for instance, speed is is not really good enough in in my space cubed time. No, I do agree. Yeah. Yeah. It's why you only see, like, saying fiery temper on a list is a is basically a shortcut to knowing that this deck is there, or that there is a deck that cares about discard existing because you the reason to pick it is that it's there rather than anything else. Okay, so next up we have a card from the Warhammer 40 K that which I think is a very sweet card. Actually, this is pox because. So it's tuna black for free. One death not death touch. Secretly not a black card bow is the key here because it has, whenever you cast a spell from anywhere other than your hands, it's own pox walkers. From your graveyard to the battlefield. Tap. So this is, the choker is kind of. We have a lot of ways to discard, so we now need to cast for parts for. Right? We just dump it in our graveyard for free and then a lot of the cards we've talked about today involve casting stuff, and some of it isn't from your in your fight like madness. For example, you cast the cards from exile if, cards like, containment constructs, cards like conspiracy, fairest feasible letting you exile cards when you cast a card from exile. So all that stuff triggers your pox. You all because you get your pox back. I don't know if this is too cute. I've been trying it, and, in a couple cubes, it's, But I think it is worth it. It seems cool to me. I'm. I'm lower confidence on this one being good. I think obviously it's better if you have some black mana in your deck as well, which sometimes you will. Then you can cast it in the emergency. But, I think if you have enough ways to, to cast stuff from your hand, I can see this being good. This is a card that, that I love this card. And you are correct. Like, like there's plenty of cards in this deck that do make it trick. And, like, if this is going to find place in this deck, I'm a massive fan of. Because I do think this would be basically if the Warhammer pre cons were more readily available on Mako, I think this would be making more of a splash in some of the older formats. People. People would be playing it more if I, if there was more access to it. Yeah. Because it's a great magic card. It often sees a lot of play in those formats with our next card, and that's Bazaar of Baghdad. I don't think I need to tell people how good of a card this is, but Bazaar of Baghdad is a land that says tap. Draw two cards, then discard three cards. So this is probably the most broken card in this deck. But it does nothing really by itself. This is a card that you that is phenomenal is unbelievably powerful. Like I would, yeah, I believe be powerful when it's put in with all the other bits that we've spoken about like this, with any of the cooler neighbors that we've been told. But into your currency converter or anything, or like, ever. Especially this with the virus slapped so hard like this makes it for a put A44 immediately and you're putting three things on every turn that is so good. Bazaar doesn't need the help. That's why you see in like dredge lists where you get repeatable value for it. But in this deck where we are wanting to discard cards and we're being rewarded for discarding cards, it is card disadvantage. It is a land that does not have a manner that draws us to cards here. But then we discard three cards. We are down a card each time. We need a reason to be down a card. Each time we need a reason to make that good. And this deck takes advantage of it. With all the synergy cards that we've gone over, one day I would love to own a bazaar of Baghdad, James, but until then, proxy ahoy! Yeah. Phenomenal magic card. It's the my favorite magic card I don't own easily, and it's probably top five anyway, I think. Yeah, for sure. I think Bazaar is so much fun. A cube, it's, it's one of those cards where I suspect, for, if you looked at it from a point of view of like you had 17 lands for paper cubes. Somehow I wish I never exists. And, you got the cold, hard stats on how much this artifact cap wins at most, it's probably not that much. Oh, it's going to be so low, but I don't care. Yeah, exactly. Because when bazaar, when your bazaar is really humming, you feel like you're doing something so powerful and it's, Yeah, it you have to do a lot of work to get that, I can't guarantee great results over time. But when it goes, oh, boy, does it go, and everything is very nice in this stack in a way you can get around the card. Disadvantage is that if your stuff just cares about you having discarded the card, well, when you're empty handed and you activate this, you don't go down any cards. You essentially just middle two cards. But it's triggering of this is two triggers for your things that say, whenever you discard a card, do acts. So that's really nice. It's a zero mana way to enable all your madness stuff, get all your triggers going. Also a nice little clap fest if you're running a bug in your cube, that's quite a nice little combo because it, if you happen to invoke game play, this taps for mana. Yeah. So you can make it easier to run it out earlier. Yeah. Love Bazaar. Proceed with caution, I guess. Yeah, that's the caveat. No great magic. No. Run it, run it, you cowards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I like Jasmine. I like those faster. Nice. The last two in this section of cards that kind of. You're only really gonna run if you really mean it. James, I know I can say this. The name of this card. How are you with asthma? I can say asthma. Okay. Come on. Blame you. Give it a go. Give it a go. That's hard. With healthy man is as move and nomad dick tag. They stick not cool. The car almost almost I what I'm going to do is I'm going to take that section and speed it up. And I think you've got it. Okay, let's go with that. I don't know van Nomad dictate basic. Not all the car. Get this. So this is Asbo. This is the free. Free. It technically doesn't have a mana cost, but as long as you have discarded a card this turn, you may pay a vet or a black to cast it when entered. Battlefields may search for library for card. Name the underworld cookbook and put it into your hand. And in fact, your food tab targets creature deal six to itself the underworld cookbooks, a card that a single mana in tap and this afternoon tap in this got a card to make food obviously fuels that second ability. You should put either both of these cards on either of these cards in a cube. If they're both in, it's kind of a fun little, question to if I put it together. It can be quite powerful as an engine. But also, you need a ton of ways to discard the card or you can't. Casters. Yeah. These are both fun. Like, they like, like were the underworld cookbook I think can be drafted in a deck. Isn't this? But yeah, you're right. They only go in a cube if they are together and they are a nice little reward again for this. Yeah, the cookbooks are nice enabler. Yeah. And Asimo is a cool, aggressive creature. Like, as Mo kind of fills a similar hole to, like, another card that can go in this deck and that's a hollow one. It's again, it's only really a card you're adding if you mean it. Hollow one is, it's five generic mana for a for four with cycling for two generic, but it only cost two less the cost for each card you've cycled or discarded this term. That could be quite like insensitively this deck that can be quite hot because a lot of the time this is is, zero mana or a one mana, for, for like, that's really good. Like, like on turn two faces looting into this. You're filling up the graveyard, you're doing all your cool stuff, and you have a four for on the cheap, if not card like that goes in a lot of decks, but I really like all I want in this build. And I get it if you're going to like it, if you're 547, 20 and you're drawing to lesson, you're looking for the extra little bits. This is the kind of like follow on is cute, it is cool. But I do really have a soft spot for hollow one. Yeah, it's cool card. The tricky bit is that you really need to be discarding two cards because. Yes. Yeah, I discard. Yeah, sorry. My full force still doesn't get. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess it's kind of cool, but you probably will actually cycle it sometimes from the stack of cycling triggers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe that's the thing. Yeah, it could be a cool payoff if you're, if you're doing a lot of this. So kind of like, I think that's the bulk of the cards that we kind of like individual cards we want to talk about. We will. I will also put a list to all of them in the show notes. If you just want to copy and paste them into your cube, for example. Nice and straightforward. But I think that's kind of wrap up the conversation with a couple of other bits we just want to touch on. Like importantly, James, I'd like we have discussed like the Vintage Cube when we were talking about the archetype, kind of like what power level of cube do you think this archetype can fit in? Yeah, potentially very high power level cubes, like, yeah, obviously like make our vintage cubes fan of go to high power level cube. And this can this is in there as a soft light package I would say I think the more dedicated version probably need to go a little bit down the power level too. But the foil you're looking at, you know, the, containment constructs, for, pop, smoke some speak offline DevOps. But honestly, I don't think you need to go down like it doesn't need to be in a low power level cube, but I think in like a more power level cube, but but be more dedicated full on oxide can can still work very well. Plus it's, I like that. It's, it's an interesting thing to do with your aggro decks and, and that I think, does work very well, high power levels. So, Yeah, I like it a lot. I think it's, one place I wouldn't really recommend. It is like Verity constrained cubes. It's nice to know. Cards we've talked about, there's. So if you wanted to do something similar that a common, uncommon, it would look pretty different. But, yeah, I think it's, it can really go in any power level because obviously, if you're in a low power level cut, you know, the most explosive for cars we've talked about and, and lean into some of the more low power level ones. Right. Like you've cut and and you've done containment construct. Right. Like it's fine. No, definitely. And like this isn't I know this is an episode where I've talked about Bazaar of Baghdad, but it is a relatively budget, package to include as well, like none of the cars. I don't think it's super expensive. Like, I like, like, I think like like, yeah, it'll be stuff like Currency Converter and Fable of the Mirror Breaker. I'll probably do some of the more expensive cards, just because they see play in a bunch of other formats and they're generally just very strong and it'll get reprints. They'll be a bit pricey, but like the majority of cards we're talking about, because they're not really command cards, as it were, they're kind of good one on one cards. I mean, they're not as expensive. They're kind of weird. It's it's a it's the perfect cube archetype because it's we're not really taking a deck from like legacy or vintage. This is a kind of a deck that is pulling cards from all across magic, but it's a one on one archetype, so it's not expensive because of commanders. That's an even better reason to include it in cube. It's not super expensive. You can definitely make a more budget version of this deck exist, which is very, very cool when I do like that. Yeah, for sure, for sure. And it's, it's also quite redundant. Right. So like, I have a couple of like with vice cards and that, that, you know, if you don't want to spend £15 or whatever it is on the fable, then you just want Season Pyromancer instead, right? I think actually fable might fable is only about $6. I reckon the token is more expensive than that. Was funny for a long time. Yeah. So, I've cast a lot of fable like, so I'm certainly never buying one of his goblin shaman tokens for £20. So I'm looking, I think, on this rifle that is more expensive, which is, well, reprint the token. Dammit. But. Yeah, so so so that's kind of like the power level. It can fit in him. I guess. The other thing to always talk about when you're discussing archetypes, because cube archetypes and cards, we we want them to go in other decks. We want them to overlap. Kind of like James, what kind of other archetypes does this strategy go? Well, which kind of like like what do you think? Like like like what does it go well with? Yeah, I think this is really flexible in terms of what colors you can combine with some simple, criteria is you want to be a deck for has about combat and attacking with chief creatures. Because for me, a knight, a lot of the best payoffs are better when you're doing that. You know, I, I, I think it works best is your your an aggressive deck for you, an aggressive deck for can grind and has a lot of resilience. So I think that can work across like a very wide like base for any if a co-op has a combine with that and do that potentially. But I'd say the, the most natural ones are five that black. Yeah. Black gives you great interaction of a good fats. And just coincidentally a bunch of Suffolk has about being the graveyard. So, you know, you can run some like blood gas type stuff if you want. Black even has some, some interesting discard matters payoffs of its own. Something like The Raven Man is not a card I've seen in many cubes, but it looks kind of cool to me. It's like a two mana. Two one. Get your end step. If you've discarded a card, this one, you get one one fire. But yeah, also just, you know, black has a million other ways. Fake cards about stuff being in the graveyard. So, so that's stuff obviously all works fairly well with discarding cards. That green I think is also good. The the main thing you're getting out of green is like, survival of officers. And I guess for the shaman, that the safety issue for survival is a tremendously expensive magic card. If you don't want to proxy, the other thing you get from being one of green or black is you can potentially look at Hogarth for this stack. Like it's a very busted magic card. So Guy has a proper magic card. Yes, I love that. Just as as anyone who played modern in that three months or whatever it was. Well, that's pretty messed up. But the issue with Hogarth is you have to have a lot of features that are either green or black. Yeah, you can't just be mostly red creatures because you won't be able to convert. Okay. Yeah. You do need a way of getting that. Yeah, yeah. It's I think it can overlap nicely if you're doing some, like, green black graveyard stuff, as many cubes do, but potentially has some nice overlap stuck. Yeah definitely. Yeah. Yeah I like green and black pairing with this because they both have ways of also bring stuff back from the graveyard. Like this deck. If you can cast it you'll probably like throw a cheeky reanimating. They're not going to be bad. Like they're like even in tomb. Like finding something to put in the grave, but like, like finding the phoenix to put in the graveyard so you can bring it back, can win you a game of magic that's pretty solid. And and then green, you obviously get, land recursion. So, like, crucible of world effects like that can be pretty good if you're, if you're pitching your lands again, it just it's just ways of giving the deck more synergy, more like that. Like if you're if you're freely pitching the land, you're going to play every time and getting advantage of that, that's really good. It's just more ways of kind of like just giving you more advantage of your opponent and just like making the engine that little bit better, which ultimately you kind of like is that for games, the more all in version is more like an engine, but the smaller package version is more just like an addition to an aggro deck. Yeah for sure. If. Yeah, I think if you're going much more to this as an archetype, very dedicated top five and just a package, you'll probably looking a bit less like an and an aggressive back and and a bit more grindy in about the engines. Right. Okay. So we're kind of coming to an end of the episode now. I'm kind of James final thoughts on Red discard matters. Yeah, I've been really high on this, for a while now. I'm, I'm a big proponent of guessing, trying to make your aggressive decks do something interesting. I think there's a lot of cubes where it's like, a bunch of interesting, distinct archetypes, and then there's just sort of some very aggressive cards. I think it's a lot more fun for that to develop is like evolve, or something. Benefits. That's no car. Is that safe? So it's like generic. That creature that attacks, I think I think this is a very good way to do that. And then if you want to commit to it more as an archetype, I think that can be really rewarding to. Yeah, I'd agree with all that. Like, like, I know a lot of, like like it's it's another thing to do in red isn't the generic just turn light sideways. And it's not like the super high busted like broadside bombardiers or ganked. It's kind of like it's still can be very, very strong. And we've given ways of really powering it up. But like, if you really want this to go ham, then yeah, proxy up that bizarre bag that gets and go on with it. But like again it can the power level can be tuned the vast majority of cubes and that that is the sign of a really good archetype that it can go in a vast majority of cubes and be fun and be enjoyable and be strong in all of them. Yeah, I'm always here for archetypes like that. And it it also not like that will get more cards. Like any card that does something with this guy is is conceivable in this deck. Kind of like like like like I think we both completely missed of aura. Not because we didn't do a set review on it, but but but because there's an a jumpstart product and it's not our fault that we missed it. But like, I'm not reading chips out cards from that come out. Sorry. No no, no, I look through them. But this is, for as an uncommon like I think like it's not our fault we're doing our I. Honestly, I didn't just miss that Evolver was in the jumpstart set I missed. That was such a yes. That's more. Yeah, yeah. We're trying. Dammit. We're trying. Awesome. Yeah, I think that's where we're going to leave it for today. James. Pleasure. That was a really nice little chat. And. Yeah, I really love this archetype. And, yeah, I think it's one that is just going to see more and more play in the coming years. Nice. Yeah. Always a pleasure. Wonderful. All right. That's going to do it for today. Do give us a five star rating. Give us a positive review. Tell a friend whatever your podcast platform allows you to get positive affirmation for, please do it. Greatly appreciate. It helps us grow the house. Just go to the podcast. Have to do more cool and interesting things. Until next time it's goodbye from me. It's goodbye from James and we'll see you all soon. Much love. Goodbye.