Have you ever wondered about the road less traveled by those who serve our communities? Angel Tucker, a retired public servant with a remarkable life story, joins us to pull back the curtain on his vast experiences. From his transformative Navy years to the discipline-shaping missed opportunities of youth, Angel's journey is as unconventional as it is inspiring. His pivot from music to the adrenaline-fueled world of bounty hunting, and the innovative methods he employed, demonstrate a life lived boldly and without boundaries.
Tackling the human element of public service, Angel's ascent to an appointed position in Toledo reveals the heart behind the badge. He shares how critical tactical communication and community programs are in bridging the gaps within diverse socioeconomic landscapes. We also wade into the deep waters of mental health, discussing the often-unseen struggles of first responders and youth in underserved communities. Angel's insights remind us that beyond the uniforms and titles, there lie personal sacrifices and the need for balance between duty and family.
By the episode's conclusion, we find ourselves enriched with a more profound understanding of public service's complexities and the continuous effort to uphold mental well-being. Stories of prioritizing family, supporting career growth, and the everyday rituals that stitch our lives together offer a grounding counterbalance to the intensity of public service. Join us for a conversation that's as enlightening and heartening as it is a testament to the resilience and dedication of those who commit their lives to serving others.
Follow Allen C. Jackson - @2cupschronicles
Have you ever wondered about the road less traveled by those who serve our communities? Angel Tucker, a retired public servant with a remarkable life story, joins us to pull back the curtain on his vast experiences. From his transformative Navy years to the discipline-shaping missed opportunities of youth, Angel's journey is as unconventional as it is inspiring. His pivot from music to the adrenaline-fueled world of bounty hunting, and the innovative methods he employed, demonstrate a life lived boldly and without boundaries.
Tackling the human element of public service, Angel's ascent to an appointed position in Toledo reveals the heart behind the badge. He shares how critical tactical communication and community programs are in bridging the gaps within diverse socioeconomic landscapes. We also wade into the deep waters of mental health, discussing the often-unseen struggles of first responders and youth in underserved communities. Angel's insights remind us that beyond the uniforms and titles, there lie personal sacrifices and the need for balance between duty and family.
By the episode's conclusion, we find ourselves enriched with a more profound understanding of public service's complexities and the continuous effort to uphold mental well-being. Stories of prioritizing family, supporting career growth, and the everyday rituals that stitch our lives together offer a grounding counterbalance to the intensity of public service. Join us for a conversation that's as enlightening and heartening as it is a testament to the resilience and dedication of those who commit their lives to serving others.
Follow Allen C. Jackson - @2cupschronicles
I'm so grateful for another day to help stimulate the mental Time to strategize. Put a lot of wishes in code. I can feel the moment radiating through the convo. Talk is cheap. Turn your faith into work. I drink my second cup and put my hands in the dirt. Two cups drinking straight drip from the earth. Capinated conversation. You heard him here first. What the fuck the wake up. What the fuck the wake up you. You fuck the word. Capinated conversations? You heard him here first. Once again, welcome back to Two Clubs Cafe. I am your host, alan C Jackson, and who I have coming through today For a high quality caffeinated conversation Is my main man, angel Tucker. How you doing my brother? I'm good, al Good to be here. Yes, sir, I'm so glad you just came out, man, to sit and have this conversation. Man, I know a retired public servant man. I mean you got a plethora of knowledge and experiences. Man, I think my listeners and viewers Will really like to pull from. So if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, Things you already know.
Speaker 2:I grew up here in Toledo, ohio, went to Joseph W Scott Bulldog, yes, sir. After that I went to the military and after the military I kind of just bounced around. Okay, you know, I really, you being a kid, being from Intercity Toledo, didn't really know what I wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Well branching to the military.
Speaker 2:I went to the Navy, okay, yeah, and I got to be honest. If I could recommend going to the military For any young person who is not sure what they want to do, I would recommend it and I would actually take it seriously. I didn't take mine as serious as I should have and when you look back on it you're like, oh, I could have done this, this, this and this, but when you're young you always think you're missing something For sure. So after that was over, I just bounced around, couldn't really figure out what I wanted to do. I'd always dabbled in music growing up and I'd still dabbled in that, and for several years it paid the bills.
Speaker 2:But it came to a point where you're like, okay, I'm about as big as I'm gonna be with this, so how do I continue it on? And back then nobody really told you To pay attention to the business. You can do it forever. So I didn't have that advice until I decided to move away. And at that point someone introduced me to a guy we know his big tree, ilya Wells, and said Actually, it was my sister, cherise, who today is her birthday. God rest her soul. And she said hey, I think you should really think about Going this route Now. They were bounty hunters at the time. They were called fugitive apprehension.
Speaker 2:It was bounty hunting, right, no dog, though. We got to carry guns and we didn't have mullets, but a dog is still the man and it was something way different. So, yeah, it was armed. Yeah, okay, yeah, we were licensed to carry side arms, which is a regular pistol, and we were certified in shotgun and AR.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm gonna let you get into your whole story. But when you decided to do the bounty hunter thing, like what was it? Was it exciting to you, was it? What did you think about? This? Was gonna lead somewhere else, or it's kind of like I'll do it for a while. Figure it out.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I went into it blind and it was a challenge, because growing up you know how you ask other people Like what you think I'm gonna be when I grow up? Everybody will set a cop to me. I think you're gonna be a cop and I'm like, no, that's not what I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be this, this, this, that At one point I wanted to be a chef. It was just crazy. So at the time when she said it, it was just different and I wasn't sure. But there was something inside of me that kind of called me to that. Oh right, and I wasn't afraid to get my hands dirty, you know, I wasn't afraid of confrontation. So I said, all right, let's see where it go. And they looked at me and they was like you are an artist, you are music, you don't belong over here. Right? I said, give me a shot. He gave me a list of things. He said, all right, get all this equipment, take these courses and get these certifications and come back.
Speaker 2:So, I disappeared for about six months, and then I came back with everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember, and he looked at me like you serious?
Speaker 2:So we did it and I'm gonna be honest with you, it was a wonderful experience because we made mistakes, we learned a lot, but it also taught me something about myself. So before I got to the team, the team was primarily just you know, as you go. But once I got there I was like, well, you know, we need to reorganize some things Because it has a bad reputation amongst law enforcement when you do bail enforcement. So I said, okay, we need to actually have a uniform, but not swig gear like you jumping out. Let's do khakis polos.
Speaker 2:The head guy was like, okay, what else you got? So let's create a file on everyone and we're gonna make sure those files we got those files saved Everyone's certification, all the things that are updated, and when we go to an area we'll report to that local police station. We'll give them all of our vehicles, all the plates that are on the vehicles, all the people that are gonna be on the team, all the certifications that we hold and all the addresses we're gonna be going to. It's like okay, and it started to work. And then it got to the point where we started getting a really good reputation With local law enforcement. At that point he looked at me and said you should be a cop.
Speaker 1:Mmm man. So how long did you do the Bonnie Hunter?
Speaker 2:Oh, no one's asked me that in a while. I want to say I did that about five or six years, somewhere in there.
Speaker 1:And then you went directly from there to law enforcement. I did.
Speaker 2:After he said it so many times, I started taking Criminal justice classes, only to further that business, because I was like we're gonna go to bail bonds route. But when I was there, one of my professors who was law enforcement had said hey, you need to think about Going to law enforcement. Then another instructor said hey, I like for you To not only think about it but apply in my agency, which was Oregon Right, okay. And so I just said okay. I just dove in feet first and you know, yeah, I remember.
Speaker 1:Did you have any apprehensions? Just coming from you know? I know exactly where you grew up. You know we kind of came up in the same area and we grew up in. You know the crack era In the 80s, late 80s, early 90s and you know Gang activity, all that stuff we grew up around and you know we know a lot of guys that was involved in a lot of things. So like how do you get any pushback when you became law enforcement? So this is funny how things work.
Speaker 2:Yes and no. I assumed that I would become a pariah and I got a lot of overwhelming support from the community to go, because a lot of people they know my heart and they know what I'm made of in my stock. However, some other people that was really gritty that I might have had a couple bumps and bruises with they were a little worried. They were a little worried and I'm like, yeah, I'm not applying in our city.
Speaker 1:I'm applying in the next city.
Speaker 2:Right right next town over, yeah, but because you know my family still lived in the area, that he would still see me in. It would be a little weird and you know Some people would try to get you in trouble, try to make up stuff and say stuff about you, call and say things, and it did create some tension. But it also it opened my eyes to a lot of things and it made me understand how serious the position really was and exactly how the community itself can view you and how important it is for you to understand a difference between intent and perception, because I might have a wonderful intent going into something, but because I know what's going on, I might not always feel like I have to explain the whole thing, but then that creates a different perception of what the intent is. So I learned that. I didn't learn it as quick as I should have, but I definitely learned that.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of like when law enforcement shows up on a scene, you already have the information, you're already kind of assessing it, but then somebody that doesn't have the information that might be from the community say, hey, you know what's going on here, like I got this Actually.
Speaker 2:So I've actually did that, naturally, so I didn't. I never had that issue. The real issue I had was creating internal issues for myself. You know people looking like wait a minute, you're not supposed to be hanging around with felons, but you're back in your old neighborhood. Okay, a lot of those guys and girls are felons. Well, I can't just abandon the neighborhood. Hey, you're not supposed to be around this or you're not supposed to be doing that. And it's like well, I got to go back and show the community that I care. Just because I work in a different city, I'm still in the same county, my family still lives here, so I still have to make a difference here. And that created a perception that I one wasn't fully on board with what I was doing and, two, that there could be some other things going on. And that was not the intent. The intent was that the neighborhood know that I still care.
Speaker 1:So you have more pushback from inside of your organization, more so than in the city.
Speaker 2:Oh, I definitely had more pushback, but I also had a lot of support, okay. So I feel it's important to reference that. Yes, I definitely had pushback from inside the agency, but I had a ton of support as well. And you don't always see that when you're in the eye of a storm, sometimes people are working behind the scenes to say, hey, I see what you're doing and I support you, but you don't always know that because everybody doesn't have to be loud about it. So that also created a little bit of tension, not understanding that there were people who were working for me and not just against me as well.
Speaker 1:So then I know you went from the Oregon Police Department and then you took your expertise and you started doing something in the city and gave you explaining about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, so and, by the way, I was the first and only to date African American officer to serve in Oregon.
Speaker 1:I did not know that. On that point, yes, yes, are you serious, like even until right now, even to right now?
Speaker 2:Yes, oh man, how long were you over there? I was there about 11 years in Oregon, a little over 11, I believe it was Okay.
Speaker 1:Did any different recruits come through?
Speaker 2:They just didn't make it or they just it was some recruits that came through and this is part of the issue that we talk about with law enforcement. Some of them were current law enforcement and they weren't able to score high enough on some of the testing, whereas you have people that were greener than your background here who would score high on the testing. So what tells me is this sometimes the testing isn't as adequate and pulling out the information and the knowledge that someone has, because some of the people that got turned away because they didn't score high enough are excellent officers out there on the streets and they're serving other departments in their top cop and the departments they're serving in. And I'm going to get to your question, because you said what did I do? So it was time for me to start to think about retirement.
Speaker 2:I had been injured on the job multiple times and after three shoulder surgeries and some PTSD later, doctor just said he wasn't comfortable signing off on me. So my retirement is a medical retirement. It wasn't one that I was happy about. However, it took me about a year for it to soak in that. Okay, this is real. So I was tapped by Karen Pore, who was the deputy mayor of Toledo, and she asked if I was interested in the safety department that they were putting together and of course I was interested and I asked her what it entailed and she said well, you know, safety department would encompass police, fire and the Save Our Community program and I would serve as a deputy safety director. And we talked for several months on and off and then I found out that director was going to be Brian Burr for Fire Chief and I was like, yeah, I'm really on board, let's go, because I've seen him in the community, I've known him, for you know at least a score and I knew his grit and what he was made of.
Speaker 2:And I've seen him also take it from the other side too and say, hey, you know, I just got to keep my chin up and keep moving, so how can you not respect that For sure. So that was. My second act was with the city it was Toledo.
Speaker 1:That was an appointed position. Right, it was an appointed position through the mayor's office. So they kind of sought you out, like, how did they go about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just got a phone call one day and asked me could I meet for coffee? And then about a quarter of the way through I was like wait a minute, it sounds like more than just coffee and just conversation kind of grew from there. Yeah, for sure. And I think what it was was even though I was serving in a different city, I still came back to the community here and I did things I trained. I trained things like bridges out of poverty.
Speaker 2:I've trained tactical communication, you know. I've trained people in areas of how to engage with their community better, Volunteer time. I set up some programs where some people needed some extra help, you know, like book bag giveaways, you know community cleanups, block watch, and I actually was able to sit down even round table discussions. So this was before your appointment, this was before my appointment, wow. And I was a huge mental health advocate. I actually won first responder of the year from the mental health and recovery board for the work that I do in the mental health awareness. I was able to co-author the third edition of a book titled tactical communication. So I think all of those things combined is what helped them say hey, you know, would you be interested in this, because we know your heart is in the community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you touched on real quick tactical communication, like the way that sounds, that sounds like that's something to know about, like full of my listeners and viewers, like can you give me just a quick definition of that or tactical communication?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Tactical communications, it's really not complicated, so explain. So I'm going to try to explain it without being long-winded. Okay, we got first responders and a lot of these first responders they come they don't all come from different communities we got, we got under service communities, we have middle class communities, we have a wealthy communities. Well, if you grew up wealthy, you have no clue about the other two, and vice versa. So if you get first responders who come from upper middle class areas but they have to go and serve under service communities, the golden rule isn't as golden, treat people the way you want to be treated, right right.
Speaker 2:I might want you to keep it 100% brutally honest with me, but someone else might not want you to treat them like that.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So I might want you to just be bold and blurted out. Other people might want you to ease into some things. So and this is more of the platinum rule, treat people the way they want to be treated. So what we do is stop looking at the race, the religion, the sexual preference and really look at the socio-economic status of that community. In my neighborhood, I couldn't wear red growing up. I was still hardheaded and would do it but I wasn't supposed to wear it.
Speaker 2:But the white kid across the street from me. He couldn't wear red either. It didn't matter that I was black and he was white. We had to follow the same rules because we grew up in the same neighborhood and now I live in upper middle class neighborhood. Well, guess what? When my neighbor get out there and cut his grass, what do I? Got to do? I got to cut that grass, yeah, and sometimes I'll beat them to it on purpose. And these are the things that we teach our first responders. All right, let's understand the socio-economic status of the community, let's understand the hidden rules and languages of those communities and let's understand the centerpieces of what really drives those different areas in the community so we can better service it, service our communities. And now I even got into that by accident.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that you say you co-authored a book on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So when I started, I want to say it was the first or second edition that was out when I started learning about it. But because I wanted to offer extra things and I'm like, oh, we can tweak this and this is actually not accurate information. Hey, we need to work on this. Then they offered me a co-authorship on the third edition and I jumped at it and my whole part is about mental health awareness with first responders. Oh man.
Speaker 1:I like that. I got to get that book. I'll bring you one, yeah, for sure, because I always try to learn stuff like um. I've been listening to a book by Chris Voss called Never Split the Difference. It's about the art of negotiation, but it's also about when you learn about the art of negotiation. You could just use that like an everyday just conversations with I don't care if it's your waitress, I don't care if it's your child. If you know, when you enter into a negotiation, then you can start like okay, what do I want to get out of this interaction? So I would be really interested in getting learning more about that tactical communication.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because I open it up to community members and at first I got a little pushback on that Cause this is how I feel. I am a public servant, so if I'm being trained in something, you're the public. If you disagree with it, then we need to have a discussion about that and neither tweak it or just chuck it. But if you agree with it and you understand it, then maybe you'll be that voice of reason when you do see something happening and you say, hey, wait a minute, hold on, this is they're actually just doing. You know what they need to be doing. Or hey, I need you guys to do this to help them, or you can better help us to service the community, and say, hey, wait a minute, you know this is what just happened, so we don't get these.
Speaker 2:What I call I got the term for my wife clash of conditions, and what I mean by that is, as an officer, I've seen some horrific things. You know, one time I had to pick up this baby who was six months old. I went to a call and it was some fear that she was being abused. And it come to find out she was being abused in every way possible, to the point where she had healing fractures and she was only six months, which means this has been happening four months, and there was also some sexual abuse too and it was just a horrific scene to get her to the hospital and it looked like a Marvel movie. You know where they connect every wire. It looked like she had every machine. She's in the NICU and I'm sorry it's a little hard to even talk about that, steve. No for sure. And if you have to go from that over to his lawn clippings or on my sidewalk, you know, it's gonna mess with you a little bit.
Speaker 2:Or if I'm showing up to a scene and something similar's happened, someone's already triggered. I'm coming from a scene where I'm already triggered, you already triggered. Yeah, we're not triggering each other, but we're clashing the conditions because now I'm trying to tell you somewhere, you're trying to tell me something, and now we're dug in Mm-hmm, because when you're triggered, you react differently. Yeah, sure, you're not triggered. Everybody's in flight, everybody ain't flight Mm-hmm. So it's just, it's a way for us to say slow down. It's a way for us to say, hey, am I okay? Let me do a temperature check here, right, let's figure it out. And if I'm not okay, then somebody else needs to step up and not be afraid to step up, and I'm not needing not be afraid to say I'm not okay, I'm not okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know so, but your line of work though, man, it's like, historically, you just supposed to just be okay, because that's supposed to be the job. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna tell you, and I'm gonna speak for my female first responders too it's tough enough for us guys. We just need posts to shrug it off. I mean, you grew up like that, Right for sure. Only emotions you were allowed to show was either I'm happy or I'm mad. I can't say man, al man, we supposed to hang out?
Speaker 1:We supposed to go to the dollar movies Friday.
Speaker 2:You ain't sure what man you hurt my feelings, man, you couldn't say that. But the ladies are almost expected to be a little more emotional and then criticize for it. You know the gear is heavy, heavier. You know the toll, the totality is heavier. And then we don't look at the areas that they're a little better than we as guys are. We don't look at that and we don't acknowledge that. And I'm not speaking for everyone, you know. But what I'm saying is it takes even more of a toll mentally and emotionally for the ladies because you're not allowed to express those things. And if you do express it in the wrong fashion or around the wrong people, then everybody is concerned. I don't wanna go to a scene with him. I don't know what might happen.
Speaker 1:Right for sure. Oh, that's all right. You're worrying about it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, then everyone's worried. Oh, I don't know if I can go do that with him, and it's been a couple of times where I've been asked to quiet it down a little bit about mental health and my PTSD diagnosis. But and I was respectful is this a order or is this just a recommendation? It was always a recommendation. It was never an order. However, I can tell it was more concern about me and how I would be perceived than it was about letting out that dark secret.
Speaker 1:Right. So it wasn't so much about if you could do your job. It was kinda like hey, I just want you to tone it down, because I don't want anybody else to have any questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and at first I didn't see it as that. Okay, you know, when you're going through multiple things at the same time, and especially when you have a diagnosis like PTSD, sometimes, if you're triggered, everything can seem like a threat. Okay. So at times I felt like they don't just want me to expose this dirty little secret, right, right. But then after I really started talking to people and sitting down and I really started utilizing what I learned in therapy, then it was like, oh, you're not doing that, you're concerned with how I'm going to be perceived when I show up to the scene, right. And then that gave me a whole different outlook on it. So I didn't stop speaking out, but I did change my tone as to when I decided to speak out.
Speaker 1:Okay, you feel like your PTSD came from your first responders. Or was that something you carry from childhood, you know?
Speaker 2:the things that bother me the most are from being a first responder. I don't think it's natural to see people burn alive, right. I don't think it's natural to see people commit suicide, you know, in a violent way. I don't think it's natural to see babies like that or see people, you know, mutilated in car crashes, and it's a repetitive thing. So if I had to answer that question, I would say I definitely feel like it came from being a first responder. However, I will preference this Growing up.
Speaker 2:Where I grew up, there were a lot of traumatic events and I've seen a lot of people even though I was there. There were people I wasn't in the game, you know. So there were people that I saw in the game, that I see now, and I definitely feel like they have PTSD and we talk and we have a lot of the same, we exhibit a lot of the same things and I tell them you need to go get checked out. I think you have PTSD, and that's another underlying silent killer of our community that I think we're not addressing either. Wow, so PTSD and that's the thing about stuff like PTSD none of it cares what color you are, what race you are, who you lay down with, it doesn't care.
Speaker 1:Right, so PTSD, like what are some of the outward manifestations you would see? Like you say you could pick up on certain things like so sometimes the guys would be talking.
Speaker 2:And I know sometimes when I talk and people are polite, I know sometimes if I get a wrong topic my voice will change a little bit, my eyes might start to water a little bit. You know you could suck it back up most of the time. But these physical effects happen and sometimes I'm talking to people and I could tell when they just kind of look away or something said, that little quiver in the voice or they get a little amp, or while they're talking about something. You ever talk to somebody and they're talking to you it comes to me.
Speaker 2:Oh man, you know, and I even now have to tell my wife when we go somewhere new, I'm like babe, I'm not, I don't have a wandering eye, I'm just, I have to scope the place out.
Speaker 2:You know, I'll go out and meet people. I like to go to a cigar lounge, but they gotta sit in the corner. I have to sit in the corner too, you know. Oh man, I can't. You know, I don't need you to face towards me. I want you to sit beside me because they want every view. And so I pay attention to these little things, the lack of sleep that a lot of people I know they're telling me they're getting them like well, why is it how? No, my mind won't turn off.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking yeah you need to go get smell.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, that's powerful man. Like was that something that you came in realization on your own? Or did somebody recommend like hey, angel, you need, or did the department say, cause they know what you witness and what you kind of go through on a daily basis, and somebody kind of like just say you might want to talk to this person, or is it like a mandatory thing after you see certain things on the job? I know kind of ramming some things together, but you know, oh, you're fine.
Speaker 2:You're fine. Those are all great questions. So If I'm going off of hindsight being 2020, I see the areas where I should have noticed. Okay, but it was a partner of mine I'll just say Mike, because I don't want to say his whole name A partner of mine. I talked to him about some things and just some things I was experiencing and stuff, and I was triggered one day on duty, okay, and he had to take me out of that, like I don't know how he did it, but he knew what to say, he knew what to do and he took me out of it and then we talked about it later.
Speaker 2:At that point, I think I was 40 at that time, okay, I went and got help, yeah, and I've let's see, this is the thing about PTSD to a message with your memory. I believe I was 40. Yeah, I'm going to say I was about 40, so I've been going to therapy for that ever since, okay, and but then this is the issue I can't say I'm not showing up for that fight, or I'm not going to that fire, or I'm not going to that crash, or I'm not going to that domestic violence or I'm not going to that rally. You know cause? I've experienced some things on the other side too. Everything wasn't a car crash or a fire. Okay, I was the first and only in a place that, not all the people. I got a lot of support from citizens in the city, but it's like everything else. You got this small fraction of people that would rather you not be there. You know, I've been told, I've been, I've been caught at all. Everything that they put in the book is like somebody read it.
Speaker 1:It just went down out of the screen.
Speaker 2:And so those things had took a toll too, cause then you started to get paranoid. When you get further on the outskirts of the city and it's a little darker and you got to traffic stop and you know somebody's about really like four or five minutes out and it makes you wonder. And then, especially when you people say it in aggressive tones and you're in uniform, right Like a hello, I'm in uniform, and so I would say all those things were contributing factors to it. It wasn't just about death and destruction. Some of it was just about even the racial component. I'm not even going to sugarcoat. It was the racial component that you would face in law enforcement, and it wasn't just from people that didn't look like me, it was from people that looked just like me too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they got their own perception or definition of how they deal with law enforcement, depending upon their lifestyle choices and I have no clue what they went through.
Speaker 2:You know, I know some people that have been raided, and kids inside of a raid and guns put to their head at a very young age. They don't like the police. I don't know what this individual went through either. So I can't expect them because I done been through some things for you to say, oh, I'm going to take it easy on you, you've been through some things, right? What I want to do is get a chance to a moment at least understand. Like, all right, I don't hate you, you don't hate me, right? How can I help you? And I used to talk to people. I would take them to jail. I would say listen, if you need help, when you get out, I'm not going to show and I show up. I'm not going to look at you like, oh, this is the idiot I just arrested. No, right. I said I'm going to come to you and say what do you need? That's not my job to judge you on what you did. So I tried my best to move in that direction and stay in that light.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's jump back towards your duties with the city. What was the main purpose of your assignment or your appointment?
Speaker 2:So the main purpose was helping out with the Save Our Community program. Okay, so we got. We have the record numbers when it came to a murder. I think out of all the states, ohio was the only state that had two cities that broke their own murder rate record, and that would be in Columbus and Toledo. So it was trying to figure out how we can move that program forward. It was already in place. Some good people had already done some good work there. But, just like everything, sometimes you just you need something a little different. So we got in there and we did some really good things. We got some data collection systems in place. We were able to hire more people to hit the streets and actually be more community oriented. We put together some serious partnerships with other entities and we were able to actually move the program just that much further. I mean, I think recent numbers show they showed the recent numbers that the crime rate that went down.
Speaker 2:When we started, I was handed a brief from the Biden administration and said 10 things to do to lower your crime by at least 10% and it's lower than 10%, it's lowered more than 10% and on the reporting. So what I did was I took each of those 10 things and I put what we're doing or what we're planning on doing in that area and I just built upon that and I believe I received that report right before Brian Byrd became the director, because we staggered coming in because he was retiring from fire. So we staggered coming in. I think he was a month or two behind me and then once he got there, I showed him my idea and he said let's run with it. And I would say, a few months later we were looking for a commissioner because a John Armour had decided to go back to Columbus and, regardless of what anybody thought, he was doing a great job.
Speaker 2:A lot of people ask a lot of people, all rumors I heard this. I heard that no, john Wong was doing a great job, but it's rough being away from your family, so he was fighting 24 seven. You're human. He didn't go sleep at night because he didn't have his family go home too, so he'd be working 15, 16 hour days and out there. That takes a toll on anyone. So he needed to recharge. He needed to go back home and recharge, and that's understandable For sure. So then we hired in David Bush, and David Bush he had 20, some years of experience, because he started mad poets Then he had been with the librarian. He's just very intelligent individual, so we were able to move it further along even with that and it was just. It was a though stressful, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. I have no complaints about the actual experience. I could sit here and talk about the ins and outs of things that frustrate you, but who doesn't if you have a career that it's going to be frustrating you?
Speaker 1:got something that's going to be anxed. You know what I mean, yeah.
Speaker 2:And instead of focusing on any of that, I like to focus on the good things that we did while we were in there. Somebody said it's politics, you, you could be there one minute, go on the next. And I said but it's not, that's not what's important. What's important is what we do while we're here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that sometimes people get a confused. Like your job was an appointment, so you know, like you say, it's politics involved, but you weren't there with political aspirations, so it's a whole different fulfillment. You know, it's not like oh I'm going to, I'm trying to just do what I got to do to stay here. Like you know, I'm trying to move the needle on what they call me to do and however it goes, it goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know there are a lot of things people don't understand. You know we did ride alongs with police because they fell under the safety department. We I did overnights with fire, an actual full 24 hour shifts with them. I wanted to make sure I understood it. See, just cause I was a cop didn't mean I understood everything about fire. We worked side by side, but I never stayed tonight at a firehouse. You know, I never did the firehouse chores. I never went on all the runs with them Like I got the opportunity to do.
Speaker 2:And it made it more understandable when moments like budgetary issues, like, well, why don't you get a fire truck from over here and a fire truck from over there? And this is lower. And well, why can't we replace half of the breathing apparatuses now? Because everything has to be cohesive. You can't explain these things if you're not in there and you don't fully understand them. So us getting in there and being able to understand these things better, it was wonderful. It was a great experience for me. I got to understand fire a lot better, Brian got to understand police a lot better and we both got a chance to show the community that we really care about what's going on. That's how the community, through the Save Our Community program.
Speaker 1:And that's crazy that you guys work side by side and don't necessarily understand all the nuances of each job. But just imagine, like in the community, like stuff you telling me right now like I didn't even have a clue about a lot of things that we speaking on today. So I know the average citizen, we see fire, we see EMS, we see police, but we had no idea, like, what goes into the day to day operation of any of those departments. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:And, unfortunately, there is a transparency layer there. However, sometimes you're like, okay, how do I get to that layer of transparency? And what I found is that a lot of things. Yeah, you can't know every little thing. Some things have to remain quiet. The majority of things are out there, but we just got to let the people know where to find it. You know, we got to let your only as rich as your resources For sure. If you don't know, those resources are there, it's just like not having them.
Speaker 1:That's powerful man. So when did you decide to retire all the way from public service?
Speaker 2:So the safety department ended up getting changed into a different department, ok, and that was no longer our area of expertise at that time. So a new team was brought in. Now I could have easily done something else. You know, consult I'm still on the books for consulting as far as like I'll consult with agencies about community events and organization and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But I really decided to take a take a step back and say, listen, my wife is working full time. You know, she's a senior vice president at a local financial institution. Actually, it's a national financial institution. I don't want to say it just in case I'm not supposed to. Ok, but she also is a full time law school student in her final year of law school. Yeah, and we have four children now. Ok, and that's expensive. And then, when you really are looking like OK, my wife poured into me during a lot of my career and she poured into me when I was doing the deputy safety director to cell phones, phone ringing all night, stressed out, right, the murder rate looked like it was going up and up and up and you're just like, you know what can we do? And she was always just there, like, even with her plate full, yeah. So now I felt like it was time to really pour into her. So I said listen. I said I am going to actively look for things, but my pension is in.
Speaker 2:I'm like we got all these things. We got four kids that go three different schools, that started three different times. Why don't we focus on you and your career? Ok, and she just was like seriously, I was like, yes, she was like and you can do that. I'm like, yes, I can do that.
Speaker 1:That's that maturity, though. Man, you've been through so much and, like you said, even with dealing with with the job, but then dealing with officials in in city, but now you're dealing with you went to therapy. So you, you are mature man. Man, you've been through so much, so I'm not going to say easy, but you in touch with what makes you tick. So it's like, yeah, baby, let's do this.
Speaker 2:I think you said a key point that I probably didn't realize, maybe even all the way up until a few days ago. I'm finally coming in tune with what makes me tick, and that's anybody that hasn't figured that out yet. Please do have to. Yeah, because if you write, it's not easy I still only average about four night, four hours of sleep. You know, I still have my moments almost on a daily where I have to stop and pause and say, ok, you know, is this real or are you just being triggered, or are you just having a memory? And and then I can continue to move on because I did seek the help. You know I am mature enough to say, ok, I need help. I have to work at this plan and a lot of times people see you like man, you, you smile and you don't seem like you got that. It took a lot of work. And let's just be real. Our generation, we really learned how to mask. You know you, you better look like you're doing. Ok, that's right, even if you ain't.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, definitely the way we grew up. You had to have a certain certain provider with certain masks, like you say, a certain. You had to go in the character almost on a daily just to kind of make it through, navigate through the circumstances we came up in. Yeah, when you stay in the character too long.
Speaker 2:You know what happens.
Speaker 1:No doubt, no doubt. So in two cups, man, we spoke before, but it's one for the wake, one for the work. So that's my two cups. So the first cup is all about inspiration, motivation, visioning, ideas, meditation, like it's like what, what wakes you up in the morning? I always say, like people have various things that keep them up at night, you know worries or this. I'm talking about what motivates you, what gets you up in the morning. And then the second cup is the work. Like what steps are you taking towards, you know, implementing that, that dreams, that dream phase in your life? So I'm going to be 100% honest with you.
Speaker 2:It's going to sound corny, but it's the truth. I'm not. I'm not play caten, because this is being recorded. What wakes me up in the morning is literally knowing that I'm the first one up in the house and that when my four-year-old gets up, like there are going to be certain things in place for him. You know, when my 11 and my 12-year-old get up, you know we got a little 10-minute routine and then some chores done and then a little bit of time to spend, and then when my wife gets up, the coffee will be ready. We can have a coffee together before everybody has to get their day going. You know, now, two-year-old, she sleeps. She don't get up to about 9.30.
Speaker 2:So you know everybody's going out the house by time she gets up. But those things are the things that really get me up in the morning. And I didn't realize until I was away, as far as just I went to, I forgot where I went. I did a training somewhere and I was there for a few days and I missed it. And it wasn't the same getting up in the morning because I understood the purpose Porn into our kids. Look, the 11-12-year-old, don't see it. Right now they're like why we got to do chores, why they got to do this, why they got to do that? I don't want to do that, you know. But I'm like but where are you at? In line with the other kids your age? Okay, you know. And so I'm starting to see that payoff. You know, adolescence is about to start kicking in, so I'm about to be public enemy number one, but I'm seeing it payoff. You know, the four-year-old I'm seeing his growth. Payoff my wife the stress off of her, for sure, for lack of homework balance.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, a lot of times women. You know I was married young, so I know this from experience. Like me and my wife, we had the exact same job, worked the exact same hours, but when we got home I still wanted her to do wife stuff that traditionally we thought as men a wife was supposed to do. I still wanted her to do all the cooking, all the cleaning. You know I take the trash out. You know what I mean. So I know that stress that you alleviate from your wife is key. You know, with all the things she has on her plate and man, just to be, like you say, like in tune enough with your family to know like this is what they need me to do, and not only they need me to do it. I enjoy doing it, man, and that's awesome.
Speaker 2:And it's funny because, you know, at first I thought it was because they needed me to do it too. You know, and you're right, there is that element. But I did ask God to reveal some things to me, and I didn't want to know the future, I just wanted to know what I need to be doing right now. And one thing I was told was to study. I didn't know what that meant at the time. I understand it now. But another thing was understanding what my wife's future is looking like. You know, and we're a family, we're a unit.
Speaker 2:So I had to get that out of my head, that the man has to do all of this and this and this, and that I'm like, ok, well, guess what? My wife is doing some wonderful things. She's already doing big things. She's going to do even bigger. What's going to stop her if she doesn't have the time to focus in that craft? If she doesn't have the time to study for law school, she doesn't have time to study for the bar and then have a year to get at least some footing in the field after the fact. And what's the best way I can contribute to that? Oh, I'm going to get another job and hire more people to take care of our kids, you know.
Speaker 2:But then where's that other element, where's the nerve? You can have people watch your kids, but where's the nurturing, where's the teaching, where's the consistency? And then it dawned on me Definitely I never thought it was about me, but you said something here earlier like for a long time it was all about your kids, it's all about my family unit as a whole. Everybody's not playing their part falls apart, especially when you people say it's levels to this. You know, I thought that was some people said right, but it really is.
Speaker 2:And I think we are afraid of maintaining it. Ok, people, people aren't afraid of succeeding, but you have to maintain that. That's hard work. You know, I want the big house but I don't want to clean it. I want to do the maintenance. I don't want to pay the bills. I want the nice car but I don't want to do this. Or I want that family time, I want the big family functions. Well, that takes a lot of work to coordinate it, clean it up. You got to prepare for it, prep for it, you got to have a place suitable to do it Exactly.
Speaker 1:And there are a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Well, I want those big corporate jobs, I want those high paying jobs. I want to be a responder. Well, it's a lot of training, it's a lot of effort, it's a lot of school, it's a lot of continuing education. So, for me, acceptance acceptance on what my role is, and I know I went a little long with that, so I apologize.
Speaker 1:No, no, we good.
Speaker 2:We good, but acceptance of my role has been huge. For me. That's powerful man and our role don't have to be the same for our whole life. This is your role now. But listen, even with a mother, she's only going to be a mother of a toddler for so long, a mother of a teenager for so long. So your roles constantly change. Well, this is my role right now. This is where I'm at in life and I'm very happy there.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. So what do you see yourself? I know you say you consult. Now Are there some areas that you're really championing this season?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So of course the tactical communication, but within that, just the mental health awareness for our youth from under-resourced communities and not excluding anyone. People in middle class and well, if they have insurance they usually have means to get what they need, but our under-service communities, they're not doing that and so I'm a huge proponent for first responders and people from under-service communities in that mental health, because I think there are a lot of people untreated walking around here that are possibly breaking laws or about to break laws or getting in trouble or getting incarcerated or just misunderstood, simply because they don't have the proper diagnosis Right.
Speaker 1:So I know I work with teenage boys right. So I know one of my challenges with them is because they've been from little so they might have grew up, had a diagnosis, say ADHD or ODD, opposition Defiant Disorder, and then say maybe they got on the individualized education plan from school, so this is just from little. So by the time they come to a teenager 16, 17, some of the young men I deal with are looking at like, no, they made me do this, they told me it was this, they made me do that. Now I'm at the age where they come into some self-awareness, where they're like no, I'm not talking to anybody else, I'm not doing anything else, I'm not taking these medications, I'm just going to be figuring it out. But unfortunately, why they figure it out?
Speaker 1:A lot of times, like you said, they get put themselves in positions where they break in laws or they get triggered at school or they. But the help that's coming to them now they just seem like they've just been pushing it away. But one of my obstacles has been how do I communicate that it's okay to still seek help or to get help the way you needed, not the way you were told you needed?
Speaker 2:So I had a lot of ideas around this and I tell you. If anybody has figured it out, please let me know. It's hard to get people and I get it because I'm there myself a little bit. It's not about I don't want to take the medication, I don't want to go to it, but I'm tired of. I don't mind sharing on something like this.
Speaker 2:But when you're poked and prodded for it, or when people ask you to share just so they can judge it, or even if you're saying, well, I got this going on and people, you just always feel like people are going to judge you and sometimes, especially when people judge you the wrong way and be like, ah, ain't nothing wrong, or that just say you faking that beats you down. People don't understand how much that beats you down and you just get tired and sometimes you're just like you know what, today I probably need to go do something positive because I'm just not feeling this right now and think about this. I am mature, I'm almost 50, and I understand this and I still feel like that. So then you got a teenager whose brain is not fully developed at this time, and they got way more than their fair share of trauma and life experience. How are you going to get them to understand that and to think about that?
Speaker 2:The only way I could think of it is somebody has the time and effort to walk through it with them. You know actually what if I go with you, what if I do this with you and that's hard to maintain too, yeah, you know. And then someone will say, oh well, you started out good, but then you leveled off. Well, we got our own lives too, exactly and stuff. So it's a perpetual. It's just like almost like a hamster wheel. It just never stops spinning.
Speaker 1:Man, that's definitely true, man. And just talking to you, like you said, we're mature adults now, but when I think about my teenagers, it's like we're expecting them not us in particular, but adults are expecting them to kind of what's wrong with you? How do you feel, how do you? It's like man, I was, like you said, 40 plus four. I could label my emotions correctly, you know. Am I mad? Am I irritated? Am my feelings hurt? You know things of that nature. So a 15, 16 year old, you just constantly asking them all these questions and you can see the frustration and you'd like I see you ain't like no, he's frustrated. You know you're up and then, so, man, it's, that's that mental health piece. Man, it's really something that that perplexes me, not because I don't understand it, but it's like how can, how to help? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we get a lot of self-medication. You know people, they do what make them feel good. And then we wonder why people develop habits. Well, some of it is, you know, chemical, but some of it is self-medication. And then it just turns into a habit because you just are doing what makes you feel good. Again, they say if you can solve the problem in your lifetime, it wasn't a real problem.
Speaker 1:Well, this, is definitely a problem.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's going to get solved in my lifetime.
Speaker 1:Man, I like that man, the way you put that. Oh, man, like I say, man, I'm just so appreciative of you coming by, man, sharing a cup of coffee and just being able to pick your brain on some things. I hear some about your experiences, man. I learned so much today from some of the things you were saying. Man, I didn't, actually I didn't know you went to the Navy, so that was you know. I was like man, I wonder where Angel went. So, yeah, that's powerful man and I salute you. Man, your family, man, the things that you're doing to raise them up, man, is really inspiring and encouraging because, as a man supporting his wife, that's like the flip of kind of how we came up. So it's encouraging to see that man and I'm looking forward to hearing about all the great things that your wife is going to accomplish in the future, man, and how your children grow and be successful man.
Speaker 2:It's funny too, man. At my age I would think that I have somebody told me you know everything you need to know by time you're 50, that was a lie, Because I learned just as much from my kids and my wife as they ever could learn from me. I learned from them kids every day, no, 100%, something different that I didn't know before. So I'm really excited about the future because in being still, I'm actually gaining more ground than when I was hitting it 100 miles per hour every day.
Speaker 1:Oh, man, that's a lesson in that itself for sure. And, like I said, man, once again, man, I want to thank you for your time, man, I appreciate your years of service, man, and I really appreciate the reconnection that you and I have had. We have to do this again. You know, either on camera or off camera, man, keep the conversation going. Because of some things that you know, I feel like you could really like help me like understand, as far as being in the community and working with the at-risk youth that I work with you know, kind of glean some of your knowledge from that too, and anything you want to say before we go.
Speaker 2:I just appreciate being here. Thank you. It was a humbug that I even reached out and I'm glad I did, because for years I would see, I would see the pictures, I would see the things you're doing and I'd be like man, I wonder how I was really doing. You know, social media is one thing, how people really doing so to really get with you and create a synergy. I really appreciate that, and the next time I come back we ought to talk about some wine, because I got a whole another venture.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, definitely that's what I'm talking about. Definitely I'm really interested in. Like you said, we didn't even get into your chef piece and your wine and stuff like that. So we definitely do that, man. Yeah, appreciate you, brother. I appreciate you too, man. Until next time, man, this is your host, alan C Jackson. Just like subscribe, share all the things that we're doing here at Two Cups. We have a high quality caffeinated conversation. Look in the comments section or the underscore and see where you can get the coffee cup or get you a shirt, get you a hoodie. Until next time, Two Cups.