2Cups Café
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Early Detection Saves Lives: A Former Fire Chief's Personal Battle with Prostate Cancer
Former Toledo Fire Chief Brian Byrd shares his journey from childhood fascination with firefighting to becoming a trailblazing leader in the department and his personal battle with prostate cancer. His story weaves together lessons on racial barriers, community health disparities, and the critical importance of early detection for serious health conditions.
• Growing up in Toledo's 1200 block of Avondale with an early fascination for firefighters
• How his father's decision to send him to predominantly white schools taught him to "play the game" and navigate different environments
• Rising through the ranks from firefighter to chief without initially aspiring to leadership positions
• Creating the African American Male Wellness initiative to address health disparities in minority communities
• Revamping recruitment processes to create the most diverse non-court ordered eligibility list in department history
• Personal experience with prostate cancer despite being asymptomatic and in excellent physical condition
• Fighting insurance denials and navigating healthcare system delays during cancer treatment
• The importance of routine screenings and early detection, particularly for African American men who face higher prostate cancer mortality rates
If you or someone you love has been putting off regular health screenings, please make that appointment today. As Chief Byrd reminds us, the brief discomfort of preventive screenings is nothing compared to the potentially life-threatening consequences of late detection.
Follow Allen C. Jackson - @2cupschronicles
five, four, three, two and one. Welcome back to two cups cafe where I'm your host. Alan c jackson, who I have coming through for a high quality conversation today, is none other than chief bird.
Speaker 2:How you doing chief good, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:I'm doing well brother thanks for having me oh, no problem, I'm honored that you would come by man man, this is the first time we meet personally, but through the years I've seen your name attached to a lot of great things in the city and I'd just like to say once again, thanks for coming out.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. So let's take it back to the beginning. Man, like I said, we're getting to know each other. Are you from Toledo? How'd you grow up? I know you was a fire chief. How did that transition from being a young person growing up?
Speaker 2:and then how'd you get into those types of services? I grew up in Toledo, born and raised here, 1200 block of Avondale. Okay, yep, so shout out to everybody from the neighborhood over there. Yes, sir. I wanted to be a firefighter, since I was about four or five years old, my mother used to back. Then, you know, families had one car. Right, my father took that to work so my mother did her grocery shopping. We'd go to the old A&P that was there on.
Speaker 1:Detroit A&P. I remember A&P.
Speaker 3:So there was a number 16 fire station, which is on Door.
Speaker 2:Street now used to be right there on Detroit, so she would walk me by that fire station. She'd walk out of the way with her little fold out shopping cart to go by the fire station because she knew I liked the trucks and the guys would always be sitting out there playing games or whatever it was they were doing, and I would. She let me talk to him. That kind of just sparked the interest, never realizing that I would really end up on the job because, to be honest, back then there weren't a whole lot of them that look like us okay okay, so it was something I wanted to do, but I never thought would actually you know, happen right, so fast forward.
Speaker 2:I'm in college, went away to Penn State to go to school for chemical engineering. Ended up coming back to Toledo because my father needed to retire because of some health issues. So I came back to Toledo, was going to UT and the opportunity to came up to take the fire test yeah what's ironic about that is I was working and going to school working two jobs.
Speaker 2:Going to school and a gentleman by the name of Glenn Frames who worked at Fire Station no 6 over on Star Avenue Eastside. Their crew would actually come to the video store I was working at part-time and he would tell me about the job. He kept inviting me to stop by the station. I would do that. That man is why I ended up getting on the fire department.
Speaker 1:How many years ago was that?
Speaker 2:I got hired in 88. That would have probably been 86 and 87, because he would make constant contact with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So did you go to Libby High School? Actually, my parents shipped me out to St John's, which at the time I felt like my father was doing a little social experiment on me. But it worked out and as I got older I told my father. I said I felt like you kind of threw me to the wolves, Because he grew up in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, Okay, Was in Korea or was in the Air Force during the Korean War, Okay, and he would tell all these stories about the segregation and how and the things that he would see in Pine Bluff.
Speaker 2:Then he sent me out to actually sent me to Trinity Lutheran on Glendale for seventh and eighth grade. I went to St Philip's Lutheran before that, which was an all black Lutheran school Okay, but it only went up to sixth grade, okay. So they sent me to Trinity and then to St John's and I told my father when I was about maybe 19,. He's sitting in a chair reading his newspaper like he always did, and I said you know, daddy, I was mad at you. He said why. I said I felt like you threw me to the wolves.
Speaker 2:He never stopped looking at his paper, I said. He said why. I said you told me all those stories and some of them were some pretty horrific stories. Right then, I feel like you threw me out there. His only response to me was I wanted you to learn how to play the game, and I'm like play the game. What is he talking about? Got to be about 22, 23 years old, got on the fire department and started seeing interactions between some of the black firefighters and the white firefighters, because back then it was still a little.
Speaker 1:Pretty segregated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes a little tense, but getting better. Okay, and a light bulb clicked on in my head.
Speaker 1:ah, I get what he's saying now, yeah, because a lot of people don't understand. Like, if you're familiar with our city, you know. But I have some viewers and listeners that you know from different areas. Where you grew up, it was primarily african-american. I mean, the store owners, the, you know, the neighbors and everybody was you know. And then you say you went to a predominantly European-based education and I know it had to be a culture shock.
Speaker 2:Oh, the culture shock is an understatement. But then the light bulb clicked on. I was like what he meant by playing the game was learning how to navigate, more than just what I had been around. Yes, sir, and that was kind of a turning point for me and not realizing at the time that it was a heck of a lesson from my father.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. So when you went away to Penn State, how was that college experience? Did the St John's experience help you, like when you got on campus there, like how was the campus there?
Speaker 2:There again back in the 80s, there was still quite a bit of tension and there were some actually some national news that was made for some things that had happened and put it, put it this way, it wasn't for good stuff, okay, uh, and when it came to race relations there, but you know, it was what it was. You just had to deal with it and and that was another lesson you know from my father and my uncles was sometimes you just got to figure out how navigate.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you. So you went away, you said for chemical engineering. So when you came back home, was the goal still chemical engineering?
Speaker 2:Yes, but as I met Glen and just some other conversations with some other good family friends, that one of them was a firefighter and was like, okay, I really always wanted to do this. So I did it.
Speaker 1:I never looked back yeah, so was education, because chemical engineering I don't really want to gloss past that that's a big deal. I was a math and science nerd. I still am.
Speaker 2:But I didn't as much as I like that science nerd I still am, but I didn't as much as I like that stuff and still do. It didn't give me a purpose it wasn't your passion. Yeah, it didn't give me a purpose and I didn't have a passion for it and when I look back, I think I would have been totally miserable. Matter of fact, I had a national merit scholarship from Sun Oil. I don't know how long it would have lasted. Yes, sir, I just like to oil.
Speaker 1:I don't know how long it would have lasted. Yes, sir, yes sir, I just like to, because I know from Was education, like you say you was math and the science nerves, that something pushed by your family, because I know we grew up in the Midwest. A lot of our big things at that time was manufacturing base, the Rust Belt they call it now. But I mean, when I graduated high school it was like if I could just get me a well, I did get one I'd get me one of these Jeep Jobs or Chrysler or back, you know, amc or whatever at the time. You know that's what you kind of just looked at 30 years and now. But, like you said, the passion part was what kind of pushed me away from there, even though it was a good foundation to help start my family. I felt like I needed something different. So you said the fire department gave that for you. So how was the I don't want to call it initiation the recruitment process?
Speaker 2:Recruitment back then for me. I was recruited 99% by Mr Glenn frames Okay. Yeah, and he passed away, uh, a few years ago and as the chief I actually got to speak at his funeral and it was funny I brought that up and there were so many African American firefighters at that funeral. As I'm saying that they're nodding their heads because he was the same way with them.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay. So take me through the steps or parts of your career that made you aspire even to attain that chief status department, honestly, that was never a goal department.
Speaker 2:Uh, honestly, that was never a goal, was never a goal, that just kind of came about. Uh, all the promotional tests for me at that time, the first promotional tests I took to lieutenant because there were competitive processes, okay, the honestly, the only reason I took it was because everybody in my station at the time was doing Okay, so I studied with them. My wife that's a whole other story.
Speaker 2:I could tell you how much my wife helped me with that but, that would be a half hour in itself, okay, okay, so that was the first promotion happenstance. It was my environment, everybody around me was studying, so I studied too, ended up being promoted, gave a lieutenant. As a lieutenant, now you're the decision maker for your crew, for your rig, okay, and we're going on these incidents. And the station that I was at at the time got a whole lot of fires, but it didn't get a whole lot of EMS runs, because at the time there wasn't much downtown.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:The station I was assigned to was at Washington and Ontario.
Speaker 1:Washington and Ontario Station 5.
Speaker 2:I know what you're talking about and you know, back then there weren't a whole lot of businesses downtown. There definitely wasn't many residences downtown.
Speaker 2:Yeah downtown was not that lively but we got a lot of fires into adjacent districts that we responded to. So when I became a lieutenant I was comfortable with the fires but not so much with the EMS calls for service. So as a lieutenant I went to paramedic school. So now I'm going to paramedic school on my days off and got that certification nationally registered paramedic and now I'm back in the study mode. From doing that I said I'm kind of a book nerd too.
Speaker 2:So captain's test comes about. I had just got done with paramedic school. So now I was on it was steady mode on steroids so I took the captain's test, finished number one on the captain's test, got promoted and I think I was the first I'm pretty sure I was the first African-American firefighter in the city of Toledo to finish number one on a promotional test. And then something similar happened for the next rank, which was battalion chief. Okay. And then after that was a competitive exam and assessment center process too. Yeah, after that the deputy chief position was by appointment. Okay. So I got that and from that position I wasn't too crazy about some of the politics.
Speaker 2:So I actually self demoted and went back to a battalion chief on the street, okay, okay because I have to believe in what I'm doing right, I feel so I gladly went back to the street was the happiest I had been in a long time. My blood pressure went down. You said blood pressure went down.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, it did. Matter of fact, I started getting sick. And I started getting sick because I had been on blood pressure medicine and when I went back to the street I didn't need it anymore. Wow, yeah, my blood pressure has not been high ever since.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir, so, not knowing, when I went back to the street as a battalion chief, that it would end up turning into a request for me to be the chief of the department. Wow, so yeah, then that came about, which I never aspired to, that Truly never did. I was happy with my district. I had all the downtown stations, the east side and the old south end were all mine as a battalion chief so it was the busiest districts Got to go to a bunch of fires and the crews were fantastic and I really loved that job.
Speaker 1:Yes, wow, that's interesting. I appreciate you giving me that journey because you know, if you're not um familiar with how those departments are structured, like I didn't know how you went from, you know, uh, somebody working at a station to captain, to battalion chief, and so I think that I thank you for that.
Speaker 1:Um, so you said you said something interesting about paramedics. So you have the, you have the fire aspect of firefighting but being in the fire department, but then you have the emergency services and what did you see like? Because I know 05, you know Eastside 0, south End, these are areas that you know. I don't want to say socioeconomic limits, but we have a lot of people that are trying to make it.
Speaker 1:You know, what I mean. So some of your paramedic, your medical services I can see the fires. That's kind of you want to put the fire out, but then when you get to dealing with people, it's almost like medical and social services. So, what did you see as your experiences?
Speaker 2:That a lot of people needed help and resources that they couldn't get. That was again the unfortunate social reality and a lot of people would actually use that 911 system as their primary health care because they didn't have primary care physicians. Yes. And when you look at the history, especially in the minority communities, there's lack of trust when it comes to the health care?
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:And history has created that. Remember I talked about the conversations with my father.
Speaker 2:Yes, when you think about the Tuskegee experiments, and all these other things that now, unfortunately, somebody's trying to erase from history. It created lack of trust in those minority communities for health care systems. Yes, sir, so the fire department, not just in Toledo but even in other cities, we've kind of borne the brunt of that especially departments that provide EMS services or emergency medical services. Yeah, so that created another passion in me, which is one reason I started getting involved with the African American Male Wellness Agency.
Speaker 1:Okay, so did you see a disparity? Okay, so you have. So in our communities we have age, gender, ethnic background, so did you? Were you naturally able to see differences in different ages, genders, things of that nature?
Speaker 2:Yes, I'll say, in the central city minority communities and right now I'll talk about the African-American communities compared to some of the more outlying districts, we would get more calls for non-emergent services because the people just didn't have the resources or didn't know what else to do other than to call 911. So the number of diabetes calls the number of calls for chronic respiratory stuff where people didn't have their insulin, they didn't have their medications, they didn't have their inhalers, they didn't write. So that was one reason I pushed to get us more involved in the African American Male Wellness Agency.
Speaker 1:Right, because I think a lot of people think that, as African American men, we get involved in things that pertain to African-American men only because we're African-American, not realizing that there are actual social and economic barriers and attitudes or, like you said, natural distrust, like somebody has to be there to bridge the gap and a lot of times, as you probably seen, somebody that looks like you and can relate to you could be the one to help you over that hump.
Speaker 2:Yes, and when it came to those calls for service and the amount of resources that it required from us, that affects the taxpaying base across the city. Everybody's paying into that Right. So it didn't just make sense socially and because it was the right thing to do it made sense economically too, to try to curb some of those calls for service, because they're strained on the system that everybody who pays taxes in the city is paying for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because you call 911, and all you guys show up Right, that's an expensive call. We, and all you guys show up Right, that's an expensive call.
Speaker 2:We could have went to urgent care, you know, got an albuterol you just called out a $500,000 rig with four people making decent money to come out because you've had a stomach ache for three days and you don't have a primary care doctor to go to.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, wow, wow. So so what gave cause the idea? Cause, you said you got involved in a African American wellness initiative, and could you tell me a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's the one that I got involved in actually originated in Columbus Ohio.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Uh, it was a group called National Center for Urban Solutions. They started it. The gentleman who founded it. His name is John Gregory, he said myself and another firefighter, his name was Tony Haig, and his son and my wife went to Columbus and when we saw what they were doing, we were just amazed because the number of health screenings that they were doing yes, sir, With instant results.
Speaker 2:It's like man. We got to figure out how to do this in toledo. And tony, he's like brian man. We got to figure this out because we need this in toledo. The very next year we did it we did it in 2013 got a decent response. Uh, we like columbus. They get 30 000 people with theirs, but it's Columbus, columbus. We were pretty consistent with ours. We have maybe on plus. We would do it on a Saturday morning in. August. The third Saturday in August was typically when we did it okay and our health screenings, the number of health screenings we provided.
Speaker 2:As far as individual screenings, I think Toledo probably did more individual screenings than even some of the bigger cities, with the exception of Columbus, obviously. We did PSA blood draws. I had the paramedics from Toledo. Well, I was able to get a company called Physio Control at the time to donate for use at that event cardiac monitors where we would do 12 lead EKGs. We were the only one out of all the cities that did 12 lead EKGs.
Speaker 2:Now that's a couple thousand dollar test in an emergency room. We did it for free, and every year we found somebody who had some sort of anomaly with their heart that they were not aware of Because, part of the way that the ECG was used, that screening system works across all of the cities. It's not just you know.
Speaker 1:They take your blood pressure, your blood sugar hey, your blood sugar's high, they send you on your way.
Speaker 2:No, that's not the way this one works. The way it works is you get a screening form, you hit all of the screenings In order to get your T-shirt for the event, you got to sit down and talk to a doctor. So we had a table of doctors so that when you came out from your last screening you had your printout of your EKG, you had some of your other results and you literally had to sit down and talk to a doctor. Now the doctors then knew who they could refer people to right there at the event. We had pharmaceutical counseling there, we had social service folks there, we had some of everybody.
Speaker 2:So if the doctor saw something, the doctor could say hey, you need to go over to that table and they can help you out with your prescription or something like that, and the doctor had to sign their form, and the only way they could get their t-shirt for the event was to take their signed form to a table where they could then get their t-shirt. So if they didn't have any other doctor's appointments that year, they had one.
Speaker 2:I heard that right and and there were some people who ended up being referred to and got some primary care docs out of that so it's not, it's not just your regular health fair.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, I bet you guys got some some testimonies afterwards like people didn't know that they were dealing with that, you know. So I know I mean to be honest.
Speaker 1:It's like I want to say this as, as an African-American man or black man, it's like we get used to a certain threshold of irritation or certain like threshold of irritation, you know because I remember I used to um, I worked at like a factory, like I was telling you so, and at one time we were off for like a month and I woke up in the morning and I thought something was wrong, but then I noticed like my hands weren't hurting and my back wasn't hurting, and then I was like this is how I'm supposed to feel, wasn't hurting.
Speaker 1:And then I was like this is how I'm supposed to feel. But then I, when you're not and when you're in pain, you only can focus on what's in front of you. You gotta do what you gotta do. I gotta make it through this day. I gotta make it, you know uh, to work. I gotta pick my kids up, I gotta. And you just get just used to that constant, like it's almost like a buzz. It's like you're hearing a, even in a bad microphone. You hear the hum in it.
Speaker 1:But after a while you don't hear the hum no more, because you don't know how to fix it, so you just get used to dealing with it.
Speaker 1:And that's what I think as men, we just get used to that noise level and then we just adjust to it. But then when we can bring noise, when we could bring know it that's the way people say you got a calm the noise. When you calm that down whether it's was, was we in your mental health, your physical health, your spiritual health, then you can start, you know, thinking about other things. Yeah, I know you guys, man, had to have a lot of testimonies like I didn't know, I was not even supposed to feel like that, right.
Speaker 2:So almost every year, if not every year, we had somebody transported to the hospital for our event, and the screenings weren't just for the men too, we did women. A couple years we even did a few things with kids, with some vaccines and stuff. But every year we transported somebody to the hospital. The first year we did it, there was a lady who her EKG was showing that she was actually in the process of having a heart attack. She got transported over to St V's and ended up getting a heart cath. That's an African-American female. The African-American male wellness and a heart cath.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That's an. African-american female with the African-American male wellness Right Right. And numerous people with the prostate. The PSA is elevated.
Speaker 1:Could you explain about?
Speaker 2:the PSA? I'm not. That's a blood test they do that determines whether or not Is it prostate-specific antigen? I can't remember exactly what PSsa stands for, but that is the blood test that they do to determine whether or not there's something bad going on with your prostate. Okay, now, sometimes it can be elevated just because of an enlarged prostate okay, but it's benign and there's some uh procedures that they can go and do and like shave off part of the right, okay uh, but it could also be elevated because you have prostate cancer yes sir so prostates.
Speaker 1:In our community we hear a lot about, um well, prostates and then colon. You know things like that, like what is the major driver of needing to get that that checked?
Speaker 2:uh, specifically in the afric, african-american community, black men are dying from prostate cancer at disparate rates. Now we talk about history and ideas of what masculinity are. You know that that could be an issue with us too. Yes, sir, because one of the tests for prostate cancer is the digital rectal exam. Yes sir, and to put it bluntly, somebody's going to be putting their finger up your rear end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I had to get my oil checked before. Got your oil checked.
Speaker 2:Yep, and there's a lot of us who don't want that done. I have family members who have said to me I'm good, I'm good, I'm good they can do the blood test, I'm good. Well, in my particular case, it was a routine doctor's appointment that I had blood drawn and a couple days later I got a call to make an appointment to see the doctor and I asked why? And they said some abnormal lab values. That abnormal lab value was my PSA.
Speaker 2:Now, mind you, I would probably get my PSA drawn at least once a year, sometimes multiple times, because when I was traveling around to these different cities for the African-American male wellness thing, you had to participate. Yeah, I mean, if I'm part of organizing all this stuff, I have to show participation. So there were some summers where I probably had my blood drawn for PSA three or four times but, never came back high.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:And when this happened after my routine doctor's appointment, my PSA before that, which was earlier in the year, was like 2.3. It ended up 9.8. So up 9.8. So okay, that's cause for concern. Doctor did the digital rectal exam. He said he felt some enlargement, but he's a family care guy, he's not a specialist, right? So he then referred me to a specialist because he said he could feel an enlargement but he doesn't know whether it's benign or what.
Speaker 1:Right. So he's kind of like AutoZone, where they can hook the meter up to the machine but tell you something's going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you don't know what that something is, yeah, okay. So he referred me to a urological oncologist over at UTMC, okay, who happened to be. I think his title was like the chief urological oncologist over at UTMC, who happened to be. I think his title was like the chief urological oncologist for UTMC, because he's a pretty well-known doctor and I didn't know who he was from. Adam at the time.
Speaker 2:So he does a digital retro exam and he was very specific in his description. He said that he could feel a large hard nodule on a certain side of my prostate.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So he did. He repeated blood work again, ordered an MRI. The MRI came back with not just one tumor on my prostate but two. Now, mind you, I had been totally asymptomatic, right, because a lot of people when they start having those issues, they're getting them going to the bathroom four or five times a night. They have other issues related to it. I had none. I did mention to the doctor, my primary care doctor, that every now and then I'd get up once during the night to go urinate but at the time I was drinking a ton of water Gatorade.
Speaker 2:Me and my wife were working out real hard, so getting up once every now and then was not something unusual considering all the other factors.
Speaker 2:So he got the MRI and both these spots lit up like light bulbs. So then he had to order a biopsy. And this is what I tell people when we talk about early detection and why it's important to get these routine exams. Our healthcare system has delays built into it. You mean delays like delays from one doc to the next if you get referred, then testing processes, and we won't even talk about the insurance companies. But I'll tell you my story all these things that the doctor had found up until this point, including the MRI that showed these tumors, the insurance company denied the biopsy and said it wasn't medically necessary. So when I tell people to make sure you get a good primary care doctor, get one that's going to advocate for you, because my doctor did Both the primary care doc and my surgeon. They were pushy and aggressive with the treatments and the surgeon ended up calling and that letter, by the way, about the denial of the biopsy, came to the house the day before my biopsy was supposed to happen. Doctor called him. That got squashed.
Speaker 3:I still got my biopsy came to the house the day before my biopsy was supposed to happen.
Speaker 2:Doctor called him. That got squashed. I still got my biopsy Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the biopsy showed that I had what they called an advanced and aggressive prostate cancer. From being asymptomatic, Just a boom. And back in October when the routine doctor's appointment happened to February. So there's delay, Right. So October 1st appointment didn't get the surgery until February 20th. And all those little things that happened in between with scheduling an appointment, scheduling the machine because I guess there's a certain machine that they have to have to do the biopsy that there's only a few of them in the area Wow. Then the potential delay created by a health insurance company denying a procedure. The built-in delays do not help Because, say, you do have an aggressive cancer and now you're months into it and you haven't had any real treatment for it, the likelihood of it metastasizing somewhere else in your body increases. So if you don't detect it early, in the first place, you're behind the eight ball.
Speaker 2:So if you detect it early, go to your routine doctor's appointments, get that necessary test done, along with the blood work, and put your perceived idea of masculinity to the side and think about your health and your family that need you around them.
Speaker 1:That's powerful man to the side and think about your health and your family that need you around them. That's powerful man Just understanding that process. I know I have a friend of mine. He's a life insurance agent so as we get older or people in different areas of their timeline in their life, he's very good about advocating for African-American men to get life insurance get life insurance.
Speaker 1:But he said it's sad sometimes for him because you have to get your blood work done to get life insurance and he has to tell his client or potential client like, hey, I don't know what's going on, but you need to see a doctor and a lot of times you'll get denied life insurance right off the bat or your premiums are through the roof.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And it's like you can't get certain life insurance or certain things you get denied for just because your blood work is off. And now you're put in the position now you go to the doctor and you're faced with some diagnosis or some prognosis that you're trying to put things in order for your family. So that's powerful man.
Speaker 2:It's, the system could use some improvements, but I was blessed in that I had the surgery and the doctor thinks he got it all out. Yes sir, I won't find that out now, until June.
Speaker 1:So there's, you know again a hurry up and wait game. There's another process, right Wait game.
Speaker 2:So I'll find that out in June, but so far so good. But I just tell people don't take your health for granted. No matter how good you feel, still go to your routine doctors. First of all get a primary care doctor if you don't have one and regularly schedule your appointments to have the basic stuff checked, because you never know.
Speaker 2:I was probably in the second best health I've been in in my life, going back to my 20s because, me and my wife were working out all the time and we would put 20 pound backpacks on our back and do three mile walks through the neighborhood like a couple times a week, in addition to going to the gym almost every day. So, uh, yeah, and then to find that out, it was. It was a kick. It was a kick in the butt, no pun intended so let me ask you so what?
Speaker 1:what do they say? That causes prostate cancer? Is that just something that just happened, like just from your body, um?
Speaker 2:there are unexplained cases, okay, uh, sometimes there's a gene that people inherit. For instance, I had a genetic test done, okay, and the genetic test showed that I inherited no prostate cancer gene from anybody, but I ended up with prostate cancer. Right.
Speaker 2:So then, the only logical step, or logical source for me probably would have been the job. Okay, Because firefighters get. They are, I forget you know how many more times likely they are to get various forms of cancer just by what they're exposed to. As a matter of fact, there's called a cancer presumption law for firefighters, meaning that if you get cancer, there's going to be a presumption that you got it because of the job.
Speaker 1:Wow, ooh, wee. Yeah, that's deep.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it's funny, the day I graduated from the academy we're in government center one of the training uh lieutenants. He was not known for mixing his words. He said in front of our families all there after we got sworn in congratulations. You just probably shortened your lifespan by 10 years oh man, the first thing I do is try and look at my mother.
Speaker 1:She's looking at me like, really it's what you want to do, right? Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2:And when I got hired, the firefighters weren't fully encapsulated like they are now. Oh, okay, meaning like the bunker pants. We had high rubber boots that came up to the thigh a long coat that came up to the thigh a long coat but the only protection you had between your lower parts and whatever was in that smoke and that heat was a pair of polyester pants.
Speaker 2:That was it, and now they found out that even some of the fire gear Leached off into you. Well, some of the fire gear has components that are carcinogenic. So now not only are you in the environment with the smoke and the heat and whatever's burning that's going into you. Now you find out that the gear that you put on to protect yourself from it Can cause something.
Speaker 1:Yes, wow, wow. Hmm. Man, that's a lot to think about. It's a lot when you're trying to get new recruits. Huh yeah.
Speaker 2:So, man. And I think most that take jobs like that or any public safety jobs. They know the danger they're getting into that or any public safety jobs. They know the danger they're getting, yeah for sure, into and it's an unfortunate potential consequence of the work yes, sir, I couldn't be a cop cuz. Yeah, you know, hopefully the fire I could get out of. You can't run away from a book no, I understand for sure, yep. Yeah, everybody over there.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir. So you guys worked together on a. Tell me about some things like. I know you did the initiative with African American Wellness, but what kind of things did you do as chief in the city? I know you had to work across sectors and work with police or working with the mayor or city government, like what type of type of things you had to do with that it was.
Speaker 2:It was different for me because, again, I'm not good at politics, okay, and sometimes my mouth would not work in my favor, okay, but that's okay, because sometimes that's necessary. Um, one of the biggest it's a, it's a social, yet a political thing was with recruiting for the department, because the percentage of minorities on the department was low, especially when it came to African-American women. So we literally changed the recruiting process. I'll give you an example of what it used to look like the recruiting process especially and some of this was court ordered, because back in the 80s they were ordered to do some of this because of the lack of diversity in the department, which is kind of frustrating with some of the things that are going on today in the world. Yeah, because people think certain things aren't needed anymore.
Speaker 2:Right, but they forget the origins of why those things came about. So what they used to do, especially when it came to recruiting, you had to go out, you'd talk to people, you'd present to groups and they would get an interest card to fill out. Because nothing was computerized back then, they'd fill out an interest card. They have to put their contact information on there and then the city would contact them with the different steps of the job. Well, communities back then, even in the 80s, were more segregated than they are now. Okay, it's illegal.
Speaker 1:That's the reality. Sure, okay, that's illegal, that's, that's the reality, sure?
Speaker 2:so their idea of recruiting and minority community was to pass out these interest cards, and Sometimes the locations that they would pick to want us to do that, mm-hmm, I will go wait a minute. What? Not assuming that somebody can't do it, but when you're passing out these interest cards, specifically in a community where people are economically and socially and resource challenged what's the likelihood that they're going to follow through with filling out this card and following up with the process?
Speaker 2:Because, when you think about that, who's more likely to have changes in telephone numbers? Right, right, right, right. Who's more likely to have changes in addresses? Yes, sir, it's those communities that are impacted economically and socially. That's 100%.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, because I went to Scott High School but the school didn't have a because we had landlines back then. Right, we didn't have one, so the school didn't have a phone contact or a valid address for me my two years that I went to Scott before I graduated and I admit I thought that that was cool back then because my mom wasn't going to get none of the notifications that I was skipping class.
Speaker 1:She didn't know. When I got suspended, she didn't know nothing. But I see what you said, like if you don't have that adequate follow-up or the ability to even track the interest, then what do you do?
Speaker 2:And I was involved with recruiting from the time I was a captain. They would pull you off what's called the line when you're out in the station to do recruiting, but they would only do recruiting. I think it was like 90 days or something like that before a test. So now there's another limiting factor.
Speaker 2:And then, when the test results would end up as they were and there were very few minorities on the list, I would say something. There was a director of HR who I went to and I said did this don't look right? Well, I said this is the end result. And that person said to me well, they filled up, filled out the interest card, so why didn't they come take the test? That was the response. I'm like this system is.
Speaker 1:Flawed where was law that best.
Speaker 2:So it was not designed to be effective with recruiting manuals. It just wasn't mm-hmm and that that's. It was a hard pill for some folks to swallow. But again, I never pulled punches on that when I would have conversations with whoever I could have conversations about, because it was fact, yeah, and then the people, and then the ones who would show up, often couldn't pass the test.
Speaker 3:Okay, Because of some of the challenges that we talked about.
Speaker 2:And that's not their fault. That's the situation that they're in, but if your idea of recruiting for minorities is focusing on this, you've got to supplement that with something that really gives them a fair opportunity to be successful in the process.
Speaker 1:At least be able to learn what's going to be encapsulated in the test Right.
Speaker 2:So when I became the chief, I knew it was going to ruffle some feathers. We completely revamped the recruiting process. Okay, completely revamped the recruiting process. I created a year-round recruiting team. We called it community engagement. I got you. Their mere presence is a recruiting tool. They didn't pick just minority communities. It was not isolated to any ethnic or social group in the city, it was across the board.
Speaker 1:So we recruited across the board, but we recruited across the board in ways that would bring people into the process. Who could be?
Speaker 2:successful in it, so it was relevant to the people you recruited.
Speaker 2:Yes, right across the board. So the first test that happened. After that, the number of minorities on that eligibility list skyrocketed. Because we recruited across the board. We're picking specific groups. We just leveled the playing field with how we recruited with people who had to have the ability to be successful in the process, because one of the things that you know they do extensive background checks.
Speaker 2:So who's disparately affected by the number of speeding tickets and all that which gave you negative points on the background test which could eliminate you from the process. So again, all these social factors contribute to the lack of minorities in that line of work. But nobody wanted to talk about those disparities and how they impact the end result with the testing. So the guy who I put over that process was just fantastic with that and I told him just go do what you do, right, right, and that's what they did. So they were going to college campuses. They were going wherever there was any group of people, no matter what they looked like, no matter what their gender, that we thought could get through the process. That's who they recruited. It resulted in the most diverse non-court ordered eligibility list we ever had on Toledo Fire.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:There was backlash from that. I got calls and even some lightweight threats from people who thought that their relative or whoever should have been hired and it was. You need to have a conversation with them. Don't blame that on me, because there was a lot of nepotism and firing police jobs there is fire police factory.
Speaker 1:Yes, anywhere somebody had a a relative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, relative yeah, and, and there were a couple people who I mean they, they were. They did not hide the fact that they were quite unhappy that their relative, whether it be son, nephew, cousin, whatever next door neighbor, didn't get hired, whether it be son, nephew, cousin, whatever next door neighbor, didn't get hired. When the class ended up being the most diverse non-court order class that came off that list.
Speaker 2:But, when you looked at the list it's like these are the people who passed the test. You're upset because your relative didn't pass the test I mean didn't get hired but everybody who got hired is above your relative on the list.
Speaker 1:Right, they thought it was a.
Speaker 2:Entitlement. So that didn't go over so well either, but it is what it is.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:So just trying to do. They said that there were a lot of things that became a passion of mine. One was the health, because of health disparities. One of it was the recruiting because of disparities in the department, not looking like the community that it serves.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 2:And that was some drivers for me with getting some of the things done that we did.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you recently retired, though, right?
Speaker 2:I retired from fire in December of 21.
Speaker 1:Okay, december of 21. So this is a Two Cups Cafe. It's an analogy for life. Which is the first cup? You know I wake up. It's a meditation process of what I'm grateful for, what I'm thankful for, what I'm dreaming about, what I'm visioning about, what I'm just blue-skying. And then, by the time I get to that second cup, it's time for the work. Like, what steps am I taking to you know? Whether it's reading a book or getting an education, whether it's having coffee with somebody, whether it's just, you know, praying about something. Like, what is that next step towards the work to get to that finished product? Like, I know you're retired and been going through some, you know some health things and I pray that by the time you get to your next appointment, everything's in order. But, like, what's waking you up now?
Speaker 2:What's motivating you and what you're looking forward to Right now personally, the health stuff and my wife being able to do the things that we talked about doing. We've been together for 41 years. Oh man, that's a blessing. We kind of had a goal for things we wanted to do a lot of traveling.
Speaker 3:And we got to do some of that and we're going to be doing some more.
Speaker 2:There was a piece in between fire and final retirement, though I got to work with the gentleman sitting over here out of the mayor's office as the safety director and the deputy safety director, and the limited amount of time that we had I think we got a lot of stuff accomplished and you know proud of that, and I think if we had been given the leeway to do some more it could have been even more successful. But you know we talk about politics is politics, but right now I just want to make sure I'm healthy and be able to spend the time with my grandkids and my wife and friends and family, and that that is truly my motivating factor now, because that scared me. Yeah, it scared me. I belong to several prostate cancer support groups okay and just today.
Speaker 2:This morning I was going through one of them and I counted four people who had who were saying that somebody had just died from prostate cancer. Wow, wow because all of them found out late detection, late detection.
Speaker 1:So, uh, I really pray that we could chop this up and use different clips um to really get people to understand the importance of, like you said, of early detection. And that's coming. You know I gotta be a first-part taker because you know I don't like the doctor, you know I don't like and I don't even know some things people think that are are inherent. You know it gets passed down like. You know that trust, like you have to, you have to like consciously make an effort, constantly make a change.
Speaker 1:And you know, I spoke with a, a guest of mine earlier and he was going through he wasn't prostate cancer, but it was a different, a different cancer and it's just that's just his home. Like you know that message about health, like all men, women, whoever need to just uh really take care of themselves. And I know, like for me, like uh, so I have like differences because I do like uh self, uh contract work and things of that nature. So navigating the insurance and all that stuff a lot of times is real, it's a like, it's an irritation you know, and.
Speaker 1:I don't like to. You know, you call people, you gotta be on hold for a while, or they want so much of your um, your background, and they want you to remember, like when the last time you had this, when the last time you had that, like man, I don't know. I was trying to get an appointment, you know but you know, maybe we have to have be more resilient, because it's not just random your life could be right, and especially with the prostate cancer and and the perception of masculinity, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Because again, the digital rectal exam. Yes, that happened and said. I have family members who say they would never have it done, and this is what I tell them and this is this sounds like kind of a harsh thing to say, but it's reality that 30-second digital rectal exam that could result in you having early detection versus waiting and not doing it One of the side effects of prostate cancer.
Speaker 2:if you get the surgery to get your prostate removed, two things are going to happen. Two things are going to happen. This is fact. You are going to be incontinent, meaning you're not going to have any control over your urine flow, and you're going to be impotent unless they can spare some nerves. They're more likely to be able to spare nerves with that prostatectomy if it's detected early. I was lucky where they were able to do some nerve sparing for mine, but it's still no guarantees. But it's much more likely for things to return to normal. So you're worried about that 30-second finger up your rear end. You better be thinking about what's going to happen down the road if you don't get that right and if your masculinity is tied to that 30-second finger up your rear end. And if your masculinity is tied to that 30-second finger up your rear end, then it's likely you're going to tie your masculinity to your ability to not perform.
Speaker 1:Yes sir.
Speaker 2:So that's a fact. So you can't have it both ways? No, you can't. You can't have it both ways, and the best way to avoid it all is go to the doctor and make sure that the doctor's advocating for you to get the help that you need, especially if it comes down to something like this, because black men are dying from prostate cancer more than anybody else.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate your transparency, man, and how you know you're taking the time and just sharing your experience, sharing your life. I mean you've done so much, you know. I just commend you for being married and being a family man and man I mean we want to talk about, you know, african-american or black men we got. You know you've broken a lot of stereotypes, a lot of statistical barriers, a lot of things that you've done in your life that you know we need role models. You know we need somebody to say no, he did it. No, we could do it. You know, it's just not on TV. You know what I'm saying. So I just appreciate your transparency, man, and your journey. You know and I know those things that you and your wife, you know, aspire to do, man, I'm believing with you that you're going to get them done. You're going to see more things and experience more things, and you know all that life encapsulates for you.
Speaker 2:That's the goal. That is the goal. And then I said, along the way good support. And you know, there's friends and there's family, and there's friends who sometimes can be more family than family, yes, sir, and there's friends who sometimes can be more family than family, yes, sir, and I've been blessed to be surrounded by a good group of folks with a lot of support and if anything's on your heart at any time, man, I'll make my stuff available.
Speaker 1:I don't have to be on it If you want to put a message out or you want to speak to some people and record some things or get some thoughts out, because you've got a vast, vast area of knowledge and expertise. You've seen a lot, you've been through a lot. I mean just from from city government to you know, uh, regional stuff. I mean you've been all through different cities, uh, about the fire, um, if anything I can do to help or you know, I know my brother, you know he can't get a hold of me, so whatever, okay, I'll make myself available any way I can.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that and ditto yes, sir, yes sir Appreciate that. All right?
Speaker 1:Well, this has been Two Cups Cafe, man. This has been a great conversation Like subscribe, share with somebody. Listen and take heed to what's been going on. We got to stay healthy. We got to be here for our friends, our families, and just don't let our legacy be cut short, because all of us have big things to do Until next time. Like I said, like subscribe, share. We'll be coming to you again Two cups.
