Board With Each Other
A podcast that looks at Board Games / Tabletop Gaming through the lens of playing as a couple or with a regular gaming partner. Hosted by Al & Hannah, We review a game each episode.
Board With Each Other
Episode 15 - Ark Nova: We Built a Zoo!
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode we cast our critical eye over one of the biggest releases of recent years, the zoo building phenomenon Ark Nova.
We talk about huge deck management, the games mechanics and so satisfying 'cascades that occur during gameplay, how well it plays at two players and of course, trash pandas.
Hello everybody and welcome to Board with Each Other, the board gaming podcast that looks at board games and reviews board games through the lens of playing them as uh a pair, whether that's with a significant other or partner or with a friend or with the desert of your zoo you're trying to entertain before feeding time. My name is Al Simpson, and I'm joined as ever by my lovely co-host and player two, Hannah Kelly.
SPEAKER_00:Hi guys.
SPEAKER_02:And today we are tackling a big one. We are talking about the zoo building uh extravaganza that is Arcnova.
SPEAKER_00:Extravaganza is a good word.
SPEAKER_02:I think extravaganza is a good word. Um Arcnova is a heavy, guess you would call it a Eurogame. And the concept is you are building a zoo, you are populating that zoo with animals, uh, you are diverting resources to uh scientific advancements and you're working on conservation. The crux of the game is you have two basic score tracks, uh one for appeal and one for conservation, and what you're trying to do is get them to pass each other as far as possible. So you need to basically be doing both, and you need to do both really, really well in order to win the game. Uh, the game's played by each player selecting a zoom map, and you can either play these symmetrically so everybody has the same map with the same sort of placement bonuses, or you can play it asymmetrically, where you have a different zoo map with different bonuses and different sort of mechanisms that go along with it. How you build your zoo is by building enclosures, which is basically achieved through a polyomino uh mechanic where you you take tiles from the sizes one to five and you place them on a grid. Doing so will get you bonuses if you cover certain spaces, and you populate those with animals. The game is played via an action queue, so you have an action queue of five spaces, and on those five spaces are five cards. One allows you to build, one allows you to uh obtain animals, one allows you to draw more cards or take cards from a marketplace, of which they are six cards at all times. Uh, another allows you to either partner up with different countries, zoos which have different mechanics, or devote scientific research into your zoo.
SPEAKER_00:Donate to conservation projects.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, donate to conservation projects, which is probably the most uh important mechanism within the game. Uh sort of how you how you win as such is is conservation projects, net your conservation points, which are quite hard to come by. And the final action is around sponsorship, so you can get sponsors into your zoo, which acts a bit like animals but differently. They they they do certain things and certain mechanics within the game.
SPEAKER_00:Or money.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, or gain your money. So there is a as you just said, sort of a money economy, so you get money every turn. Uh, turns are not your typical back and forth um uh affair. You have uh a tracker called the brake tracker that you you play back and forth, but a turn only fully ends when the brake tracker reaches zero, and different actions that you take during the game cause the brake tracker to to increase. So there's a mechanism for controlling when you get your your income, your your would you get every turn. There's an element of engine building where when you donate to conservation projects, you take uh counters away from spaces on your zoom app, and those counters either give you an instant bonus or they give you something every turn when you when you gain your income. So that that's the sort of the engine building side of it. Animals and sponsors and conservation projects. You start the game with some con base, they're called base conservation projects out at the start, but sponsors and animals are gained through an enormous deck of cards. So I think there must be about 250 to 300 cards in it. And um, you start the game with four of these, and you only ever draw new ones when you take an action to do so. When you take actions in your queue, um, you can take actions at any point within your queue, but the further along it is to the right, the stronger the action is. So, for example, if you took the build action and and it was in the the the sort of one space, you'd be able to build a size one enclosure in the five space, a size five enclosure, that's the simplest encapsulation of it. So you spend a lot of the game sort of weighing up which actions to take and when. You can't just sort of go, oh, I'm just gonna keep doing this over and over again. You've got to sort of mix them up, switch them out, and decide when it's best to do so to achieve what you're trying to achieve. I think I will probably leave it there in terms of rules because it is a heavy game, and I don't want to drone on for 15 minutes about trying to explain the rules, but that that is essentially it's in a nutshell. I'm not sure I can really compare it to anything else I've played. I know I've seen comparisons to Terraforming Mars, which I've not played before, um, but it is a it's a it's a fairly unique combination of rule sets. There's quite a lot of iconography to learn. Um, I think if you play something like Terra Mystical or the like, you know, when you it's it's pretty daunting when you first crack it out and you first try and learn anything, but after a while you just start reading the language and it becomes second nature, really. Everything's fairly easy to understand once you understand what all the different icons mean.
SPEAKER_00:So, in terms of playtime, I mean it's on the longer end of the spectrum.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I would say probably an hour and a half to two hours, depending. Um, this is one of those games where there it there's no there's no set timer to when the game ends, it's more the condition of your your two scoring tracks crossing over, um, which gives you a an element of control about when you want the game to end um to both players, but it also means game length can be slightly variable. But I I I can't see you getting through this in in less than an hour and a half, really. I find that very unusual.
SPEAKER_00:Um we also have two expansions for it.
SPEAKER_02:No, just one.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, we just have one expansion for it, which is the marine animals. Marine worlds. Marine worlds, so you get a whole bunch of fish, um, which is nice. Um and aquariums. And aquariums, yeah. Um, and we've got a couple of extra player maps as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we've got we've got the promo map packs, yeah. Basically, or everything you can get for this at the moment, we've we've got and we played with a lot. We have played with a base game a lot more than we played with Marine Worlds. Um, and it's it's the base game essentially we'll be reviewing today. We might touch on some of the things that Marine Worlds do does. Um, but yeah, this is it's definitely the sort of the base game that we'll be reviewing, I think. So, um this started a bit of an odyssey, I think, for us.
SPEAKER_00:This started, should I say, we've had it for quite a while, um, into sort of heavier Euro games, and I think this really well, I mean, we've always veered on the side of heavy, like I think we like a long and we like a complex game, but definitely I think it really opened doors in terms of like that euro, heavy euros. Yeah. And I think one of the things that we both absolutely love about this is that as you progress in the game, you get these wonderful cascading effects. So, where you achieve something and then that ticks something else off, which means you get something else, which means you get something else, and there's something really satisfying about that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I've got gonna come back to that probably in greater detail later, but yeah, it's that it's that Eurogame sort of itch that only day scratch where you you know you do something that sets off a chain of events almost that um I think this just really got us hooked on. Um so yeah, anything else you'd like to say before we head over into scoring?
SPEAKER_00:No, let's get on with scoring.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, because I think we've got quite a lot to talk about, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So our first category is components. So it is absolutely a board hog, a table hog. It is absolutely massive. Um, your scoring track takes up um most of the table.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:And that's where you lay your cards out. Um, your cards, as you said, the deck of cards is absolutely ginormous to the point where I now can't shuffle it on my own. I have to shuffle it in like decks.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, without particularly with the expansion out of, which I think adds like another 50 cards or so.
SPEAKER_00:My hand's not big enough.
SPEAKER_02:It's just the most monumental deck of cards I think I've ever tried to shuffle and see it's bigger even than my magic deck. Yeah, I'm not saying something.
SPEAKER_00:Um not as many bears though.
SPEAKER_02:No, definitely well, I don't know. There's quite a lot of bears in this, but yeah, your magic deck probably have more bears. Um, yeah, it it the deck itself is an absolute beast. It's really, really difficult to shuffle. There's maybe one think about a card shuffler for the first time in a very long time because it's just on nine impossible to to shuffle properly.
SPEAKER_00:But apparently they always knuckle your cards.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I know, which is why I haven't done it. Um but yeah, I mean in terms of components themselves, it's everything's kind of your standard cardboard and wood tokens.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, you know, there's nothing super flashy here. There's nothing you go like, oh, this is super deluxe or anything like that. It's it's fairly standard rudimentary. It does come with relatively good organization trays, so you've got an awful lot of different cardboard, but particularly with the polyomino um pieces. Uh, there's an awful lot of different shapes and sizes and whatnot. And it doesn't fit exactly super neatly, but it it it fits into the box.
SPEAKER_00:And they tell you how best to organise it, which was absolutely amazing. Because when we popped it all out, it was really overwhelming. They were like, we suggest you do this, and it was a very good idea. Yeah, in terms of handy, thank you, Mr. Game Developer.
SPEAKER_02:In terms of punching out, it's probably the most intimidating other ones I've seen outside of Gloomhaven. I mean, the no in the other level of Gloomhaven, but it was still like, oh my goodness, we've got a lot of stuff here. Like, you know, where does this all go? Um, but it does all fit back in the box.
SPEAKER_00:Um, the cards themselves, I don't know that they are all individual unique cards. I reckon they're a handful of flamingos.
SPEAKER_02:No, they're all unique. Are they all unique?
SPEAKER_00:That's a really, really lovely touch. And uh the pictures on them are nice, but I mean they're nothing.
SPEAKER_02:They're photos. Yeah, they're photos. So some people that I know that does bother some people. Some people like prefer artwork on their games versus all photos, but they they they look good, you know, they they they they're nice, and most of the time you're looking at decent nature photos, which I mean I can't see many people complaining about that. Uh you've got the sponsors, which are you know, random, random guys staring at the camera kind of thing sometimes, but um the the animal photography. Yes, they are.
SPEAKER_00:Are they?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they're not drawings.
SPEAKER_00:I've got I kind of want to pull the box out there. They're not drawings. I'm pretty sure they're not.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, I can say with 100% certainty that they are photographs.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna look at this afterwards and we're gonna put a footnote on this as well.
SPEAKER_02:You really need to cut down on the mushrooms. That's a joke for legal purposes. Um but yeah, it is photographs, so that does bother you, fine. But nature photographs, cool, you know.
SPEAKER_00:With the Marine Worlds expansion, um, you we got upgraded tokens for the tokens that we use to donate to conservation projects, and they're on the shape of little animals. Yes. So I play yellow and I've got monkeys, you play black and you've got penguins.
SPEAKER_02:Which makes me very happy because penguins are my favourite animal.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Um and they also give you upgraded tokens and the expansion for the different scoring tracks because they're all the same, just wooden cylinders to start with, but they've they've you know you get slightly upgrades, so that's a bit like oh cool, but you know, not definitely not essential.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and they also changed the action cards as well, but we won't get into that. No, that's because that's premise. It's still essentially the same, it's just slightly different.
SPEAKER_02:That's a conversation for another day, I guess. Um but yeah, the only thing that I don't like is the flimsiness of the zoom apps themselves. Um I think I've been spoiled by a few other things. Uh you know, scythe with its with a it's gorgeous multi-layered player boards, um even something like Terra Mystica, which is quite thick and cardboard and weighty. The the zoom apps themselves are printed on basic cardstock. And if you're not careful, I could see them getting bent quite easily and warped quite easily, they could rip quite easily.
SPEAKER_00:And they're quite large, actually.
SPEAKER_02:They are quite large, but I think one of the things one of the issues I have is I just wish the actual zoo part, I know this would increase the cost of the game, but was a little bit sunken in, but like because you if you nudge it or particularly towards the end of the game, you've got chaos.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I don't think we've had an instance where you we've knocked something and it's all gone flying, but that potential is absolutely there. And after an hour and a half game, that could literally just draw it to a close. I appreciate that it would put the cost of the game up, but it's the one, it's pretty much the only sort of production style bug bay I have with it. I just wish there was a slightly more deluxe version of that because it just it's that security. Like if I knock this up, the entire thing's wasted. Um, but I think that's the only thing I'd I would I would hold against it as such. I think everything else is fine.
SPEAKER_00:I would say that we play it a lot more if it weren't such a table hog.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, we've got to rearrange a living route to play.
SPEAKER_00:However, that said, in terms of setup and strip down, it's really not that bad given the number of components that you've got, the massive deck that you've got. Actually, it doesn't take all that long.
SPEAKER_02:No, it doesn't. Setup and teardown is not as daunting as it looks. I think with so many of the components actually come out during the gameplay. Yeah, it's not one of those games where you have to sit there putting things in place all over the place, you know, you just shuffle the deck, which is its own challenge. But essentially you just draft things, pick your mats, lay things out, and then you're good to go. Yeah. Um putting it away takes a little bit longer, but not that, not that much. Again, things are quite well organised, so you just quickly rip everything back into its proper place, and that's that's a dull and dusted.
SPEAKER_00:So, how did you score it?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I went for an eight.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I was tempted to give it an eight, but I went for a seven in the end.
SPEAKER_02:Fair enough. Um, but yeah, I think I think a little bit of deluxification would have gone a long way on this. Um, but it's perfectly fine and perfectly serviceable. I mean, eight's a great score, it it looks great, looks nice. So yeah, I can't fault it too much.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so on to complexity.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, so as always, this is not just how complex a game is and scoring highly because that's how well the complexity of the game serves the gameplay.
SPEAKER_00:So it is a complicated game.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:It's definitely not like a beginner entry level game. Um, and there is a lot of icons to get your head around, and even now I'm like, oh, what does this mean?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I mean those tend to be for the ones that we don't use very often. I think once you once you learn something after a couple of times, you kind of it just gets sort of embedded, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But it's one of those games that looks like everything's written in the highway gonna fix when you start.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, and it largely is. What I will say is that actually when you get your head round it and you get the actions and what they do, it's not so bad.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:It's still not an easy game.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_00:But I don't think it's too complicated, particularly.
SPEAKER_02:No. And it doesn't feel overcomplicated. I think that's the important thing for this this category. It it it is very, very it's heavy, but it doesn't feel like you've got loads of fiddly little rules all over the place. Like everything kind of slots together quite neatly, everything makes sense. I don't think there's anything where you're constantly going back to the rule book. I mean, for such a heavy game, I don't aside from looking up icons, I don't think I've referred to the actual rules since we learned to properly, like or had to. I think you know everything flows quite well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, there are a few mechanisms that I think were very new to me that took a while to embed like the whole concept of the break counter and how that works, and you know, a turn is not a turn until you know you've got you've got to go through a round and all that kind of thing. I think one of the things that I still struggle a little bit with is the end of game scoring. I think there's uh when your your paths cross, um you have to do some moving of counters and some subtraction, and you can end up with negative victory points, for example.
SPEAKER_00:Which happened to me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um it it does it does feel a little bit overwrought. Over overwrought. However, in the expansion, they have changed that, although we've always scored it the way it was originally scored, so I haven't bothered to change that, but they have simplified a little bit with the expansion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think one of the things that I don't necessarily have an issue with the fact that scoring, endgame scoring, is a bit complicated or a bit overwrought. I think what I really struggle with is that it makes it really difficult for me to work out who is actually going to win this, especially particularly when it's quite close, and where I would get most bang for my buck. Because one of the other really important rules is that once one person their tokens cross each other, yeah, that triggers end game, but it means everybody else that plays gets one more turn. So you can choose to get yourself and net yourself a few more victory points, and it's working out whether actually maybe appeal is better, or whether uh conservation would net you more points, and that becomes really quite difficult because it's so complicated.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, although there is a little bit of I have to say for me, you s you say it's a bug, I say it's a feature. I like I like the the obfuscated scoring of it. I like not I think I think with a game like this, not knowing exactly who's going to win is to its advantage. I think particularly with long heavy games, because if you get a long heavy game that the the winner is clear halfway through the game, it can you can lose interest completely.
SPEAKER_00:But what I will say is because it is such a large game, there are many paths to victory.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, so actually I've been completely screwed over at one point and gone, well sod this, I'm gonna go for something completely different, and it allows you that versatility.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, no, there's a huge breadth of strategy that you can do with us. I mean, I I think I've read something about some people who just go absolutely crazy on the appeal track the whole game and and just it it puts them so far ahead, then all they need to do is just ignite a few conservation points and finish it. Yeah, so that you know, and divide the opposite is true. You could get no animals, you could have a zoom with no animals really, you know, you just concentrate on other things and conservation and just get the conservation points up. But does it serve the gameplay? Absolutely. I think it wouldn't be the same game without the level of complexity. I think they stopped at just the right time. Um which I think I think often when we have this conversation, sometimes a bit like, oh, this is a little bit overwrought, there's something about it a bit overwrought, or this is missing, this is one mechanic away from greatness. This is the one that I have to say hits the sweet spot.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:In terms of it is exactly as complex as it needs to be. I have one bugbear and one only.
SPEAKER_00:You can just complain about the final scoring.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I don't the final scoring was not really a complaint, it's just it's compli it's complicated and slightly overall, very slightly. But as I said earlier, I I like the fact that I obfuscated scoring a little bit. The one issue I have is a lot of your animal cards, they won't just net you appeal, they will do something when you bring them out.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:There are these uh for want of a better term, debuffs that you can do to your opponent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so these usually come from reptiles, they're usually snakes, and they allow you to like constrict or venom.
SPEAKER_02:Things like draining money from your opponent or stopping them taking the actions to their full effect. I find that mechanic a little bit tact on. I don't think it happens often enough for it to be a useful mechanism within the strategic gameplay.
SPEAKER_00:I completely disagree with that because I think it's really thematic.
SPEAKER_02:So if you look at some of the other thematic, you're setting your stakes on your on your opposing zoo.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, cool.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so there are other ones that were allowing you to build things, they're allowing you to like go through cards, and they all kind of have some sort of synergy with the actual animal you're playing. I love that. If I'm playing a card, if I'm playing a game that involves animals, I want my animals to do stuff.
SPEAKER_02:I'm looking forward to Arcanova to This Is War, where it's just a full-scale zoo warfare game.
SPEAKER_00:What animal would you pick? Clearly, I would pick reptiles. Um Komodo Dragon.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um okay. I mean, I we we agree to disagree. I I think I think if it was a larger presence within the game, I think I'd feel differently about it. I think that we've had whole games where it never happens at all.
SPEAKER_00:That's because there are only so many reptiles and there are only so many snakes.
SPEAKER_02:I know, I know that, but uh again, I I still it it feels like it it just feels unnecessary. I just I don't think it needs it.
SPEAKER_00:You're unnecessary?
SPEAKER_02:I'm not though. Perfectly necessary.
SPEAKER_00:It's fab. It's wonderful. Who doesn't want a viper to do like who doesn't want a black bamber to fuck someone's shit up?
SPEAKER_02:Oh no, I have to do the explicit tag, great, thanks. Right. So what did you score it for complexity then?
SPEAKER_00:Nine.
SPEAKER_02:Same. Yeah, like I say, I mean this is an absolute sweet spot. The only thing stopping it from being a 10 are is that for me, to be honest. Um I haven't found another game that the that just feels so right in its level of of complexity.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Shall we move on to shelf life?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And value for money.
SPEAKER_00:And value for money. So I don't know how much this cost. I never know how much these things cost.
SPEAKER_02:Don't don't ask, don't tell. Um Arcanova is not that bad, price wise. I think it's it retails ten you tend to be able to pick up a copy somewhere between£40 and£50, which I think that's exceptionally good value, I think. Which is what I paid for this. I think on the the value for money side, zero complaints.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, you get an awful lot of bang. For your buck, lots and lots of tokens, really nice inserts. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. In terms of replayability, I mean we've have this is probably our number one pit, one of our number one rotation games.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we've played we have played Arcanova a lot.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and uh yeah, huge amount of replayability. We've already talked about the massive deck and the massive stack of cards, so actually, even you know, that in itself never gets old and never gets dull. You've got different maps that have give different abilities, you know, your sponsors will completely change the way in which you ga you play your game, and you get different victory cards as well. So that also changes your your agenda and your focus. So huge amounts of replayability.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's there's enough difference. Uh is that is that glorious combination of asymmetry and variety, which I think just adds to an equation of endless replayability, really. I mean, I could see you start to get bored eventually, maybe, I don't know, but I I'm very, very far away from that point. Uh, it hasn't even started to vaguely bore me in any way.
SPEAKER_00:No, we would definitely I would definitely get it out a lot more if it weren't just the table hogs, those things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and the time as well. It takes uh it takes a long time to play.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think the there the uh those 250 cards. I mean, you you you get a completely different sort of spread of cards every time you play. Um as you mentioned, your scoring cards sort of donate what you're you're gonna focus on, change every time, and the depth of strategy. There's so many different ways you can approach trying to win. Um that yeah, you just and you can pivot as well.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I said this earlier, like you know, your cards are not in your favour, sod that I'm gonna do this instead.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's definitely not the kind of game where they are optimal strategies, and if you miss it and don't get locked in early enough, you lose it. It's not that kind of game. No, not at all. I think um Yeah, I'll touch on this a little bit more on the sort of the the fun side of things, but you you have to kind of deal with what the game presents you with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I think that adds to the replayability because it's not static, it's not something you just sort of you know, you eventually develop an optimum strategy and just try and stick to that kind of thing. It's it doesn't work like that, which is great. Um so yeah, I mean in terms of uh shelf life, definitely one of the the better ones I found. I've still got no qualms about returning to it every time we bring it out. I've just like it's not like oh we're going on and over again, but never.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_02:Um so yeah, I've given it a nine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, me too. Yeah, absolutely. So fun.
SPEAKER_02:Isn't any fun?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it is. I always have a blast playing this. Yeah. Um I think going back to what you said at the start when we were talking about the rules, there are moments in this game, and they happen almost every game, where you do something that sets off a chain reaction of awesomeness that just goes on and on and on. It's like, oh now this, and now I get this, and now this, and now I get this, and this happens, and boom, bang, bang. Um and that is great, it's so it's every time it happens, it's so satisfying.
SPEAKER_00:And even just your end game, so when you not end game, sorry, when you get to the end of the round and your your break counter hits, you often trigger an awful lot of end-of-round bonuses. So that's not just about income, which by the way, can also tick over quite nicely, and that can be lovely suddenly when you're getting like 40 odd.
SPEAKER_02:Because you feel quite poor at the start, and later, late game, if you play your cards right, you're just rolling your money, basically, which is really fun.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um, and your sponsor cards will allow you to gain income or even things to happen like during a turn, and yeah, it it just it feels really satisfying.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, there's a a great mechanism of the marketplace and taking cards from the marketplace, so I think that adds to the fun for me because it feels it allows things to be a bit more strategic. You're not just sort of drawing a card every turn and dealing with what you get. You you can really construct where you're going depending on what cards fill out that marketplace, and you can also get other cards that allow you to reset cards in the marketplace, replenish it, and all that kind of thing. Um, so that really, really adds to it for me. And again, to go back, it's the it's the depth of strategy. I never feel like I I never feel like I'm doing the same thing I've done before in games of this. I'm always feeling oh, this is slightly different, I'm doing something slightly different. Oh, this worked last time, let me try that this time, and yeah, it's it's just that variety factor.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Um, so how would you score it?
SPEAKER_02:Uh I've scored it nine.
SPEAKER_00:So I scored it in eight. Okay, that's interesting. I didn't score it higher was because I guess there's still one other game I would always pull out above it. We never get to play it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, fair enough. I mean, there's no emergent storytelling in Arcanova aside from the fact that you know you you're giving off you decide to get a whole load of raccoons.
SPEAKER_00:Um although maybe then that means I should score it at nine, and actually Arkham Horror should be should be ten, but I mean Um Yeah, fine. I th I think And would I pull out Gleamhaven over this? I would pull out Gleamhaven over this.
SPEAKER_02:You would pull out Gleamhaven over this, yeah, fair enough. But I mean they are very different things. Very different. Yeah, they're I think one of the only things that might hold us back a little bit for me, depending on my mood, is there is a lack of intensity to it.
SPEAKER_00:I disagree.
SPEAKER_02:I if you compare it to something like June Imperium or Terra Mystical, you know, other sort of heavy Euros, I think that there are there are moments in those games that might be almost want to stand out my seat sometimes, and like I you know, things get really nail-biting and really intense. I've never got that feeling from this. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it's just worth mentioning for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'm gonna talk about that more under uh the two-player rating. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, fair enough.
SPEAKER_00:However, what I would say is I get that feeling within myself. So as in I have I've come up with my strategy, or I think I know what I'm gonna do, and I'm trying desperately to do it before the end of the round because I want this to happen, or do you know? So what but I have that it's very much internalized.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, fair enough. Okay. Alright, but yeah, I just talked about mention now because I didn't mention it before. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Alright, so then do you end the round scoring?
SPEAKER_02:Right, so we add all that up and average it out as always, and that gets us a overall rating of eight.
SPEAKER_00:That's pretty good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Pretty decent.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, pretty decent.
SPEAKER_00:It is a good game.
SPEAKER_02:It is a fantastic game. Worthy of an eight.
SPEAKER_00:So, next we are on to our two-player uh ratings. Yes. Um, so this is thinking specifically about how it plays as a two-player game. And the first one is table talks that includes things like to know you, how much dead time, dead space.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, dead air. Dead air. There it is.
SPEAKER_00:Um we talk constantly when we play this.
SPEAKER_02:We do. It's quite a chatty game.
SPEAKER_00:Um but usually what's to narrate, I think. I'm doing this, I'm playing this, and can I have this?
SPEAKER_02:And yeah, there's quite a lot of sort of narration that goes along with it. I also think it's while it's a strategic game, it's also quite a gentle one. So I think it gives quite I think with that lack of intensity comes a little bit more space where we'll be. I identify we're quite chill when we're playing this compared to some other games. Yeah. Um, and that table talk might not necessarily always be exactly about the game either. I think it's it, you know, we'll have a the odd conversation or what have you while we're playing and in between and and and whatnot.
SPEAKER_00:Which actually is quite rare, I think.
SPEAKER_02:That is quite rare.
SPEAKER_00:There's either too much space and it's too thinky, so we don't have a conversation in between. Um, whereas that's not the case with this. There is very little trash talk.
SPEAKER_02:No, but there's almost the opposite with this, where I tend to find myself complimenting you on a move a lot in this more than other games because it doesn't have that feel that you're trying to beat me, it's just like you both tried to build a better zoo. And we think times we've got to be like, well done, that's amazing. Well, good job, you know, and vice versa. I don't think that I think it's just that kind of game that promises that kind of thing. Um, so it's an interesting one. In terms of actual like discussing, I don't know, it's a hard one, the sort of traditional table talk around you know, strategizing and all that kind of thing, even in a competitive game, I don't think it exists so much in this, but no, because you wouldn't want to because you don't want to reveal your like victory conditions and such and and stuff, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00:And so, yeah, there is no um like emergent storytelling, you're not playing characters that are doing stupid shit, but yet there is this kind of evolving sort of humour and in jokes that we have. So you and your elephants, me and my trash panda, yeah, yeah. You know, and so there is that kind of jovial banter to it as well, which I mean that's probably because we played it so much.
SPEAKER_02:You just develop your own law when you play it that much. Well, yeah, she has to have the Riccus, you've got to have trash pandas.
SPEAKER_00:I mean it's true. I I I would actually I I've we've had long conversations about how it's not okay to be.
SPEAKER_02:I'm very happy we don't live in the US. Yeah, because I think we've got to be. Okay, so what did you what did you score of a table talker?
SPEAKER_00:Um so I have decided on an eight.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I've gone for seven. I think it's it's it's it's good. It's nothing sort of amazing in terms of that, but yeah, it's good. Okay, on to competitiveness then. It is a competitive game.
SPEAKER_00:It is a competitive game, um, and it is highly competitive because you are ultimately trying to build a more appealing zoo, but it's not antagonistic.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier. Um, because of that you don't get the trash talk, because of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you don't you don't really get the feeling like you're negatively impacting the other player too much. I think that's why I go back to the that reptile mechanism feeling a little bit out of whack. It just it feels a bit tacked on to the game, it doesn't feel like it's in the spirit of the rest of the game.
SPEAKER_00:And so because it's not antagonistic and because you're not in that head-to-head um battle over resources and space or anything like that. Yeah, it it it does lack that intensity. But equally, then I think it gives breath to a lot of other stuff that perhaps you wouldn't have. So the fact that we have lots of conversation and it's it's much more you know, jovial.
SPEAKER_02:But does that make it less competitive? For me, a little bit, like it's not it's not massive and it's not a detriment, but it does make it a bit less competitive. If I look at it from that lens, there's like you know, this sort of jewel aspect, which I think I always look at with this kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that's largely because you you you are still playing against yourself to a certain extent.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I mean you can be a dick. So, for example, you try to build petting zoos, and I'm like, I know for a fact you're gonna want that card, so I'm gonna snap that card and trash it. Just to get rid of it. So you can do that.
SPEAKER_02:You can block opponent's strategy if you can see your opponent's strategy, you can block it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But sometimes it's the detriment of yourself because you could have used that to snap something you needed instead.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, so there there are those those options, but it's not it's not the be all and ending up.
SPEAKER_02:And it's not on the surface, a sort of a deeper level into it that you'd only start doing once you played it quite a lot. Yeah. And you can and you know the strategies once you know, once you once you understand what people are trying to accomplish, which can take quite a while, and I think we're still learning that over after God knows how many games, then you can start blocking people and being a little bit more disruptive to their plans.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But I wouldn't call it a solitaire game that you play together either. No, it doesn't have that feel. I think because of the the interrelation and the visibility of the scoring tracks all the way through, I think that's the element for me, and that sometimes competing over particular cards. And with the conservation projects, you can only donate to them once, and once somebody gets in there at the higher level, you're then shut out and you have to go for the lower level. So there's that that's where I find the competitiveness sits because you can see visibly what people are going for, because that's all open information.
SPEAKER_00:So, just to give you an example of the conservation point so it kind of makes a bit more sense, it might be that you have donate to Africa, so you would have to have four animals or four four icons and four Africa icons, in which case you then net like three conservation points. But the next one is you need to have three Africa icons, and you only get one conservation point, for example.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for example, and that's shared, so it's not that solitaire thing, you're both going for the same thing, you try both trying to occupy that same space, so it's a race.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and yet I'm never racing. I uh yeah, I still don't feel like I'm racing against you because I have to deal with my action cards and the order they are, so it's me thinking ahead, and I actually it's fine. I know that I've got some time, so it's no point pulling that trigger because you've you've got you know you've got no Africa icons out, for example.
SPEAKER_02:But the I think uh but I think the difference is there's still that strategization to win that race, regardless if you're doing it directly or indirectly, you are still doing something to get there before somebody else, which I think some of these games that are solitaire together kind of thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but lack that element. Yeah, there's no shared space, it's all just personal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, so that's where I think that it it it's slightly more competitive. Um the question I always ask myself with this is how good does it feel to win? Above average for me. I'm not like, oh, I really, really want to win with Arc Nova. I always try and win, but it's it's not to the same level as some other games that we play.
SPEAKER_00:No, I mean if you Dune, I think is probably the most head-to-head intense game that we probably have in terms of you know um that's competitiveness. It's it's a world away from that. I don't even feel particularly bitter when I lost spectacularly.
SPEAKER_02:No, you know, because it's a really fun journey.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is a really funny it's the journey, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:It's not the destination. Um but does that make it a slightly less competitive game? Maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe.
SPEAKER_02:You know. Um and given all that, I've given it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, so I gave it an eight.
SPEAKER_02:Fine. Okay. And our final category is about scalability and FOMO. How well does it play at two players? And do you feel like you're missing out if you're playing with less than two players?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so just to reiterate, a high score would be that it's great, it's a ten would be like it's a perfect two player, and one would be it's terrible.
SPEAKER_02:It's borderline unplayable at two.
SPEAKER_00:So I got my scores the wrong way around. How long have we been doing this?
SPEAKER_02:It's you hear that, people, it's borderline unplayable at two. I'm gonna counter that by saying it's the perfect two-player game.
SPEAKER_00:Right, so also, you know, we haven't played this at three or more. No, so we don't have a benchmark for comparison.
SPEAKER_02:But I think it's it.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. Um, I think also what I have read is that as soon as you start adding more people, actually what happens is that there's somebody does fall behind very quickly and it becomes then a very long slog for them, knowing they're going to lose.
SPEAKER_02:And I think slog is the particular word there because I imagine playing with some four players is actually a bit of a slog. Yes. Because you'll have quite a lot of downtime before your turn rolls round again, and it is a long game, and I can see this running three hours for four players easily.
SPEAKER_00:Um particularly if you like to talk and wander off and do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean a sprinkle of AP and people who are talking and not constantly engaged and breaks, this could go an entire afternoon.
SPEAKER_00:I think the other point to note is that you've got um a marketplace of six cards, and certainly when we play towards late stage where we've got um where we've got perks that allow us to snap, so pull cards sort of immediately they've been drawn, very, very quickly actually your marketplace runs dry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so it's very conceivable that at the end of you know the the round, you're really, you know, you're struggling. You can always draw cards from the deck, but equally.
SPEAKER_02:Late game, that's not really a viable strategy.
SPEAKER_00:It's not a viable strategy, and you you need to be snapping what's out there because you need to start making very capital.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're making calculated decisions.
SPEAKER_00:Decisions, not bads, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um there are slight differences if you play it with three or four, you get more conservation projects that you can donate to out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, breaks take longer, you've got more time.
SPEAKER_02:You've got more time before breaks.
SPEAKER_00:The end of round.
SPEAKER_02:Um so I can't comment on the balancing changes that that makes, but I just I don't I don't see why you would play this at anything aside from two.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there is that fluidity that I think that happens when we play it too, which is there's always something going on, we're always talking, we're always narrating, whereas actually I think it would really change that flow of gameplay if you played with more people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that would ruin it for me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think I think it would I don't think it would ruin it for me, but I think I don't think it would be the same game. I don't think I would enjoy it as much. It's definitely not a game I'd if a heavy ball game came around that I'd choose to put out, I'd much rather put out something else, just because I think it would be to its detriment. Yeah and I think this is that unicorn since we started doing this podcast that I've been looking for, whereas like this has got a range of player counts one to four. It's the first time saying absolutely categorically, this is best of two. This is how two is how you should play this, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I scored it an eight and I scored it an eight because I don't feel that I can make that decision because I haven't played it anymore.
SPEAKER_02:I am giving it a ten, a very rare ten, because I think it absolutely it's one of those games where I just think it was made with two in mind for some reason. I just I I just don't see how playing it with more would improve it in any way. In fact, I think it would be worse.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I do think it probably would be worse. Um and you know, I don't miss not having a third player, but I just I can't I can't push that score up.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well I'm gonna kind of abstract random scoring. I'm gonna stick my neck on the line and give a very rare ten because I don't give 10s very often, but I think this is the one of all the ones that we've reviewed. I'm like, this this is the one.
SPEAKER_00:I think I gave a ten to Carcassonne at one point.
SPEAKER_02:Did you give a ten to Carcassonne?
SPEAKER_00:No, I gave ten to Carcassonne for components.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I guess the only positive score. So if you've enjoyed Hannah's random scoring, tune in next month.
SPEAKER_02:Who knows where we will go? Um great. Okay, well on that note, the scoring's made up, but the points don't matter. So that gives us an overall two-player rating of eight. So an eight and an eight is a great game, and it's great at two players. Um, how much we love Arc Nova, an eight will proceed a disservice to it, I think. But I think that's fair. I think an eight is a realistic score for something like this. Um, it's a fantastic game. I I I for me it's an all-timer, um, and I see it going down as a proper classic in years to come.
SPEAKER_00:Um I don't think this will ever get taken off our shelf.
SPEAKER_02:No, absolutely. I will I can't ever see myself parting with it. Um if you if you like modern medium to heavy or heavy ball games, I don't think it's medium to definitely heavy. Yeah, well, whatever. I I genuinely uh guarantee you should have a good time with us. So, on that note, thank you very much for joining us. Um, I hope you've enjoyed the episode. As always, if you do enjoy what we put out there, uh we'd very much appreciate a review on your podcast Medium of Choice. Uh you can always interact with us on social media if you want to. But until next time, uh have fun. Play lots of board games.
