Episode 07: Carcassonne - Hot Take Barony

Welcome to another episode of Board With Each Other!

In this episode Al & Hannah take on a true classic of modern boardgaming, the tile laying, worker placement monolith that is Carcassonne. We talk about its role as a gateway game, some of its many expansions, and discuss the topic of playing without your gaming buddy on apps and its impact.

It all gets a bit heated as we come to the conclusion of whether despite its status we actually like it, and how well it functions as a two player game. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Board with Each Other. We are the podcast that looks at board games, reviews board games, through the lens of playing them as either a couple or as two players, or in this case a French land baron who has somehow time travelled into your living room. I'm Alistair Simpson and I'm joined as ever by my co-host, lovely wife, and player two, Hannah Kelly.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Hi guys.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

So today we are doing a big one, and I have to admit that I'm mildly intimidated because we are taking on the modern board gaming classic, Carcassonne. Carcassonne was originally published back in 2000, which I struggle to believe was 23 years ago, but it's been around a while. And it is pretty much on the Mount Rushmore of uh Gateway modern board games, the other two being Settlers of Catan and Ticker to Ride. I feel like those are the three that people go to in terms of introducing people to the modern board gaming hobby. And uh we have decided that we are now going to review it, which again is a little bit intimidating. I think Hannah, you feel a little bit less intimidated by it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, yeah. Um it's definitely a gateway game, definitely, and it probably was one of the first ones that we played, but I don't know that I maybe hold it in such high esteem as a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

I mean we'll get onto that in a bit, but I think that's a fairly common uh trope with with gateway games. I think they they, you know, uh a lot of people have respect for them but no necessarily sort of reach for them because they moved on to bigger and better things. But we will get onto that in a little while. I think the first thing that we'll do is as always, I'll go through the rules. Uh Cocason is basically pick a tile, place a tile in the right place, and carry on. That's the that's essentially the rules. Obviously, it goes a bit deeper than that, but um, essentially you are choosing a tile on your turn from either a face-down pile or a bag, and you place that tile to make features. Those features are roads, cities, and monasteries in the base game. Um, there's also the ability to put down farmers, which I'll talk about in a bit. But essentially it's it's sort of a push-pull. When you put down a tile, you can put down one of your meeples, of which you have a limited amount. Um, the classic uh meeple as part of our logo comes from Carcassonne. And you score that feature when it is completed. So you when everything's sort of like a city's closed off or a road has two natural ends, you get your meeple back and you get a number of points depending on what sort of feature it is. You also get points at the end of the game for uncompleted features. So there's there's almost a bit of a gamble to the gameplay of how far do you stretch a feature, because particularly with cities, you get a lot more points if you complete it during the game as opposed to leaving it uncompleted at the end. You still get points, but you get double the points, you get two instead of one. Um so that there's always that element of how far do you sort of push your luck. Farmers, you can basically lay down on a on a tile, and they are a little bit more complicated. They're one of the classic rules that people actually recommend playing with out when you're first teaching the game, because it's quite difficult to see at a glance how many um points you get from them. You get points for every completed city within their field that's not sort of cut off by anything else. Yeah, um, which is it's quite difficult until you know how it's quite difficult to sort of see by sight. And it only happens at the end of the game, so when you lay a farmer down, you basically commit to that meeple for the rest of the game. You can't place a meeple, a tile and a meeple on a feature that somebody else has already owned, as such. So if somebody put down a city tile, you can put an adjoining city tile and put a meeple on there. You have to put it if you want to steal a feature, you have to put meeples and tiles nearby, but not joining, and then you can join them up with tiles later on. Also a bit of a there's more sort of advanced concept that people don't tend to get onto until much later on. Um, but it does very much, as you get uh better at the game, it does become a thing, and people will try and do that. We do play with two expansions. This has got to be one of the most expanded board games in history. I think there's something like 12 or 13 expansions now, but we uh drew the line after the first two. So we have Inns of Cathedrals and um oh what's the other one? Builders and I don't know because we got rid of the box. Ah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

The one with the pigs and the builders.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Yeah, the second one. Um the edition that we got also came, the new original core box that we got also came with the abbot and the river, which are sort of mini expansions that they did a while ago, but they just they tend to package those within the base game now. Um and basically they just allow you to have a different start to the game. You put you sort of build a river first and then you you go from there. It also introduces a new type of tile, which is uh a garden, which and a new type of meeple, which is an abbot. Um, each expansion adds more rules and more complexity, so it's basically sort of a push-pull of how how complex do you want to make the game. Um they also add length. So I'd say the base game runs about half an hour, and you can probably add on about 15 minutes of every expansion that you add to the game. I know there's some complete nutcases out there who play with every expansion and it takes up sort of a pool table's worth of space. I am not one of them. Um we we sort of settled, uh, I think we we played a game a few nights ago and it ran about 50 minutes to an hour, and that's with two two expansions, and I think, like I said, that's where we sort of draw the line. Um so yes, I've I've rambled on enough about rules. Uh what was your sort of first experience of Carcassonne like?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I do.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Do you?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yes, we went round to some friends of yours who I don't they were massive are massive board gamers, and I don't think they realised that we were board gamers too. And instead of just having the conversation, I think they cracked out Carcassonne as a means to like, ooh, maybe they're like this. And we played it and it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I can't remember now.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

But that's the first time we ever played it. Um I think the second time we went round they cracked out Dead of Winter because they realised that you know we were we were in a different sort of different different different level of of board gamer. But um, yeah, I think that that was the first time we played it. That's the first time we sort of got introduced to it. I remember seeing it around, it's quite ubiquitous in in shops and what have you. You know, most places that sell any sort of board games will have it. I've always wondered, ooh, what's that, you know, next to Catan and Monopoly and all the rest of it. But yeah, that was our first experience.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I don't think it was a little, I think it was a little while after that that we got it, though. I don't think we added it to the collection until a little bit later on.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Quite a while later. I had a sudden hankering to play it again because I hadn't played it again, so I bought it. Um yeah, it was it was a big gap between then. I think we were still very much distracted by Arkham and the descent. And we just wanted something I wanted something that was a little bit sort of more fuller and you could we tried unsuccessfully to play Arkham's horror second edition and things like the descent with people that came round and they were just flummock. So we need something a little bit more gateway and a bit of a few years.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Yeah, and I also think there is something about the fact that it is fairly quick to pick up and fairly easy to pick up, that is a nice sort of one-hour self-contained little game. Yeah, just if you want to warm things up, perhaps, or yeah, you want to introduce people to it, and that's kind of one of the ones that we would go to, I think, as a sort of like a warm-up game.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Yeah, like well that's the whole thing, it's the rules, isn't it? I mean, you can basically explain the rules in two minutes if you wanted to. Um, much like anything, any game where you could explain the rules really quickly, there's a huge amount of depth underneath that, and there's quite a lot of strategy, I think, that sits underneath those rules. Um, but again, not very necessary to pick up the game and have fun with it. Um I've introduced people to this at half two in the morning after very, very many Jack Daniels and Kochs were drunk and they were fine with it.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Yes, well, I mean, you don't know how religiously you were actually keeping to the rules. Well, yeah, I'm not gonna place this river on a city.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

I did end up losing a meeple, but you know. Um but I think that sort of illustrates the point that you know it I think anybody can pick this up. I've even had a crack at a slim down version with our four-year-old daughter, and she immediately sort of got where to place tiles and understood how to make sort of features of it, even though she didn't understand the scoring. She the art style is such that I think she immediately figured out where she could put things. So it is that simple. A four-year-old can do it.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

And yet you lose.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, I know, right? Well, that's a recent development. I mean, that's worth talking about. I think Carcassonne is the game that is responsible for our you're not allowed to play board games we own on an app. Rules. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

So I we haven't played it for quite a while, and I think you were you were hanging after it, and you you you downloaded the app, and then the next time you went to go and play, you just literally rinsed me. Yeah, mainly around this whole worker placement issue.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Um, and I think it's one of those examples where if you do board game together all the time and somebody then goes off and practices or reads perhaps advanced tips and then they come back, their experience just completely is leagues above you. And I don't think it's necessarily it's not that I mind losing all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

No, but if if you're getting the it it is a game where you can get a skill gap, and if you've got a huge skill gap, if you're just getting absolutely annihilated, it can be quite unfun.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, and it's and more than that, like I a lot of it was around the worker placement issue, which I mean, you know, you you kind of hinted on that. It is really difficult to see, and I don't think we played. Far farmers, you mean sorry, farmers, yeah. Whoops. Um, farmer placement. I don't think we initially played with it, but then because you were playing on the app, you then learnt how to win to and I mean even now, like I still can't see it. Yeah, and I just can't take a punt. I'm like, well, it's getting towards the end of the game, I might as well just have a crack and just see what we end up with. Yeah, I just wait for you to quietly score it at the end of the game. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Um but yeah, I think I think me playing on the app, and I noticed it as soon as I sat down and played you, it it was it I mean, we we don't often like completely rub each other ball games, but that was quite bad. It wasn't just that one, it was about two or three games after that. And I could tell that you weren't having fun with it because it was just it was too much.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

I I also think I probably wasn't having fun with it because maybe it's not my favourite kind of game to play.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Or perhaps I'd outgrow you it. And to be fair, you were the one that wanted Carcassonne to begin with. I definitely at that point in our lives would have quite happily played Arkham all the time.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Fair enough. Um but yeah, just sort of a word of warning around that. So if you do sort of play together, you probably want to kind of keep it up together instead of sort of somebody going, it it I mean it's available on pretty much every mobile device now and what have you said.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

However, you also probably played it to death on the app. I don't know. So it wasn't just like the odd game here and there. I mean we're not talking about going away for a night and playing it with a friend, we're talking about you every morning on your delayed southeastern trail.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Hardcoring it. With other people, with real life peoples.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Uh with real life peoples, yeah. Um so yeah. Is there anything else you want to sort of talk uh around the game about?

SPEAKER_00 11:23

Yeah, so I think when we first started off just for the base game, um it was running about half an hour. Um we obviously added additional expansion, so now it runs to about an hour, and I have to say I feel like it's a weirdly long but also not long enough game.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Interesting, I can see that I can see the too long. What do you mean by not long enough?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Well, I don't think there's enough meat I suppose that's yeah, maybe there's just enough meat in it to justify it being an hour, and maybe we'll come on to this when we talk about complexity a little bit more. But I also feel like at the end of it, I can't like the other night, I was like, well, I want to play something else now, but also it takes up too much time in the game. I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Almost like it's footprint in the evening's too big for for what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can understand that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um I I actually agree with that. I I I do think perhaps the base game at half an hour is easier to sort of fit in around other things, whereas it's now grown into a bit more of a monolith.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

Yeah. Um but without actually being a monolith. It's not deep enough to take up, you know, an entire evening's gameplay.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Yeah, so it kind of just it it it it it it's irritating in the sort of amount of time it takes up. Yeah, I can see that. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Maybe that comes under complexity. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Well, we might loop background to it in a bit. Right, so I I've I've been sitting here looking across the table at a face that I know very well, because I used to uh dabble in in music journalism, and sometimes you get the the certain joy of being able to rip into something that everybody else seems to enjoy, but you just don't get. And I see that look on my wife. So with that in mind, let's proceed to scoring the classic game Carcassonne.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Hey, I don't think I'm gonna be that hard.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Okay, we'll find out.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

Um, so our first scoring criteria is components. Um, do you do you want to start?

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Yeah, I'll start by saying some nice things. Um, I mean, it it it's cardboard tiles, like you know, that's it. But every component in this game, the artwork on those tiles.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Oh my god, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Alright, yeah the meeples are absolutely iconic. They have become calling cards of the board game hobby, and for that because of that, I have a great deal more affection, I think, for it. I think the art is great, I think it's each tile sort of tells you what it needs to tell you with a bit of artistic flair in there. Um and the meeples are wooden guys and they they're iconic.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah, uh completely 100% agree. In fact, one of the things I was gonna say is the meeple is now absolutely iconic. So anybody who likes ball games or involved in them knows exactly what a meeple is. Um, and yes, uh would completely agree. I'd also say that the little player tokens, so the meeples, um, the pig and the abbot, they're all wood. Yeah. And I really like that.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

I you know I think you don't get a huge amount of wood components in games.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

No, you don't, and I think it's something we could do quite easily that would have an impact on our footprint. Um, I would hope. Um, and yes, I quite like that. And they're also really vibrant colours as well. We've had other meeples that are quite washed out, these are really beautifully vibrant. Um it also, I think, in terms of its board space, you mentioned that there are about a billion expansions for it and it can take up a pool table. However, for us with our three expansions, it all fits quite nicely on our little kitchen table.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Without having to fold it fully out. We've got a sort of two-leaf expandable kitchen table, um, dining room table, which for some games we we play with two out of three, and other bigger ones we play with three, but we we don't expand it out for the other.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

One of the rules is though, if you run out of space to place a tile, you can't place it.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

There.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Um you can't place it there, you have to place it somewhere else. Um, and I think we've only run foul of that probably once.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, I don't know if that's an actual rule or house rule, but anyway, that's how we play. You can't just keep expanding off the edge of the table.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

When you run out of space, you run out of space.

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Um I think the s the score tracker that comes with it is a nice touch, it does its job.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, and it's got little counters that maybe came with an expansion so that if you keep going round, um, so you do a lap that you you have little counters for 50 and 100 every time you do so.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Yeah, I think that was the first expansion they came with. I might be wrong on that.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, no, I don't think it was in the original game because I remember having to keep a little tally.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Um stripped down is really, really quick and simple, and so is setup.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

I mean, setup's pretty much non-existent, isn't it? Just pile up the tiles. Just pile up tiles.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

We've got a bag, we put more in the bag and job's done. Um, so yes, I actually rated it really highly.

SPEAKER_02 15:45

The only thing that I will rate it down for is the second expansion. It comes with a bag for your tiles. Why that doesn't come in the first core box is beyond me, because that's a game changer, because you then haven't got a load of space to take up by parts. Well, the second one, we've only got two expansions. Um Builders and Traders, that's the one. Forgot it earlier. Um that comes with a really nice canvas bag for all of your tiles, and yeah, it it it I don't understand why that's not in the base game, because it just it makes a huge difference to the the way it actually plays. Um so yeah, okay. What what did you score it then?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Ten.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

A ten?

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Wow, okay. Wasn't expecting that. I scored it seven.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Oh. That's uh I don't know, I don't know what you would really uh now you mentioned the bag from the get-go, yeah. Alright, fair enough. But I don't really know what else I would change about it. The tiles, given that we've played it a huge amount, still stand, they're not all dogged or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Um so I don't know what I maybe I'd be unnecessarily harsh. I guess maybe there's only so excited I can get about a bunch of tiles.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Yeah, maybe that's in my mind why I sort of marked it down. Um we also talk about value for money in the spid as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

No, we don't, we do it with own shelf life.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Okay, alright, I stand corrected. We'll loop back around to that. Okay, and maybe I'll revise mine to an eight then because there's also a value for money aspect in there that I was going to mention, so I will knock my score up by one point, so I'll put it as an eight. Okay. Complexity. So again, this is not how complex the game is, but how much the complexity serves the gameplay. Um, is it is it the right amount of complex? Um I think that it is for the most part. I think the complexity serves the game. It's good as I think the interesting thing about Carcassonne is it gets as complex as you want to make it. You could play it a very, very straight ahead, you could play it nice if you wanted to, where it's a sort of a relaxing tile-lane game. Or you could be an absolute douchebag to your uh partner and just try and screw up their plans all the time, depending on the way the tiles fall.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

I am gonna say that kind of what I was talking about earlier, really. So, in terms of the base vanilla game, I think it was kind of alright, it was fine as it was. I think subsequent expansions have not necessarily added a huge amount, whilst making it more complex and more lengthy without really necessarily changing the game, particularly.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah, I think that's fair. I think um I think particularly the second expansion seems to add a fair bit of complexity around the uh trade goods that you can get. Yeah. That I don't like it. Well, I don't feel like it adds much to the game. But there are other aspects of the expansions, particularly the the boulder, which I think adds a lot of strategic depth to the game.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah. And I don't know that it's necessarily been a game winner for me. I think it just adds something.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah. It hasn't made the game better for you.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

Yeah, no, it hasn't made the game better for me. The pig, for example, I never ever used.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

No, I yeah, the pig's. And that's largely because again, this whole rule around farmer placement, which again I just feel just for the listeners who might not be familiar, that with the expansions came tiles and in the most recent one a meeple, which basically allows you to gamble a bit more, so you add it to one of your features, and that uh bumps up the number of points that that feature is worth at the end of the game, provided you complete it. If you don't complete it, it's worth nothing. So it's almost like a bit of a gamble. Because usually, even if you don't complete something, you still get something for it at the end of the game. Um, just to explain that bit.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

But yeah, there are some some uh player pieces that I still have never used, the pig being one of them. And like I say from the very get-go, I've never really understood farmer placement, and so it feels very abstract, something that I do when I've got meeples left over towards the end of the game, and I don't know what else to do with them.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Okay, fair enough. I mean, yeah, that's that's that's a personal thing. I think the farmer thing adds quite a lot to it for me, anyway. That adds quite a lot to the the the sort of complexity serving it for me. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Um so how did I score it? So I scored it a six.

SPEAKER_02 20:03

Okay. I gave it an eight.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah, contracts.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Then we're on to shelf life. So on shelf life we talk about things like value for money, but we also talk about the replayability.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And so I'm gonna go out here and say that Carcassonne is never the game that I choose for my go-to. It is never the game that I will pick up and say, Oh, I've been really hankering to play this, let's let's crack it out. And yet I do kind of acknowledge that I am probably going to be playing it for the rest of my life.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

You sound like you're trapped in the game.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah, a little bit. I'm like, oh god, I want to play this over and over and over again, and we're gonna have to sit there and explain the rules on farmers.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yeah, I look forward to that. Okay. Um I approach this one a little bit differently because actually I I agree with you. Carcassonne is not what I reach for. You know, we've got a stacked shelf of amazing ball games. It feels odd to reach for Carcassonne. However, we're talking about shelf life here. Carcasson, I think I don't think I would ever sell. The reason being not because of its reputation or what it means or anything like that, it's the one game that I can crack out to a non-ball game and say, hey, have you tried ball games?

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

And I think that's why I'd always want it in my collection. Um, and likewise, I think it is something that our daughter will learn to play quite early on. And I th I I think I think it has an adaptability and versatility to it. And you don't have to play with the expansions, you can strip them out really easily. I think and there will I think there will always be one point in a year where like I really fancy playing Harkers on.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Oh no, hum you.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yes, you will hum you, thank you. I love you too. Um crowd. Um But yeah, I I think it it does I think its shelf life is extended by its it its place in a collection where you can just crack it out to somebody who's never played a modern ball game in their life and they'll probably get it. And I think for that reason. I can't I I there's only solo I can rate it. I think if I was just talking about shelf life with you and me, this would be sub five. Oh yeah. But it's not. I I'm just I just want to make it really clear that I'm bringing in something else here.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

But this isn't our you know couples rating. This is our our actual you know sort of like you know general game rating.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Um Value for Money is an interesting one. Um I think there's so many different configurations of getting into it that you can get. I know they do a big box with a whole bunch of the expansions and what have you. I think the original base game was fine for what I paid for it. I think the expansions are probably a little bit too expensive. Um I mean we're talking single digit pounds too expensive, yeah, for me, but I just contrasting it to some of the other content that are the things that I've bought, I just I think a lot of them run sort of close to the 20 quid mark, and I think there's actual like fully fledged games you can get for that. So I th I think they I think they trade off the reputation a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

This is when we find out that Al doesn't really necessarily tell me how much he's paying for expansion.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Never, never, never.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Like I never tell you how much I pay for soap making stuff. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yes. Don't need to know. Um so yeah, okay. I I think we're rambling a bit. What what do we rate it for seven? Snap. You rate it a lot higher than I thought you would.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

See, I told you I wasn't gonna be completely horrible about this. Okay, this is when it will go horribly wrong. Fun!

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Fun! Okay, off you go.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

I do not find this game fun.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Okay, why do you play it then?

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Because I love you. That's why. Um Do I think I found it fun in the beginning? Well, yes, because any new game is fun, even if it's a game that sucks terribly. Um but no, I don't particularly enjoy playing. There are moments where we have moments where I'm like, yeah, but I mean, uh no, not really. And I don't get excited about the thought of playing it. I don't have a huge amount of fun when I am playing it. I feel like it's a constant, oh pick up on the tile, find space for it to go, oh yeah, great.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Okay. Is there anything more about what you don't like about it? I I I know you don't like it, but can you sort of expand on that a little bit? I just what about it annoys you? What what what what sort of or fails to excite you, perhaps? I think that's more of the case here, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Yeah, it fails to excite me. I do think that when you went off and had your little foray into your online app, that I think that probably really did take the tarnish off. No, that's not the right phrase. Tarnish it. Tarnish it for me.

SPEAKER_02 24:30

And it doesn't do very well with phrases and idioms, guys, just so you know.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

With six of those in the haven't noticed. Come on. Um It's just a bit banal.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Okay. Yeah, I mean I can't. I I I I'm not going to try and counter it because.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

I don't get uh I don't get a kick when I complete a city. You know, I do quite like it when you build your ringrooms, that makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

I love building ring roads, great.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, but I mean I don't I don't it just doesn't do it for me.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

Okay. I mean that's completely fair.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

There's no sense of satisfaction. Even when I win, there's no sense of satisfaction.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Oh really? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I mean aside from you know winning. But you know, it's not like an achievement.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah. Well, I mean, from my from my side, is this the most fun game I own? Not by a long shot. Um I do have fun when I'm playing it. I find just sort of playing and creating the tableau that it creates actually quite satisfying. I quite like the visual feel of it.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 25:34

I really enjoy that. Um I do get quite a lot of satisfaction when I do take a bit of a gamble and a bit of a punt on sort of a large feature, and that pays off. Like there that that scratches some part of my brain that I don't think many other things do. Um I think partly because there is a luck factor there. You you do have to get lucky, so it is a bit uh when you when you get into tense moments where it's coming towards the end of the game, you've got this massive sprawling city, and you pull the right piece, it's a real buzz. Um, likewise it's the the agony of when you don't, and I quite like that in a game.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah, see, I'm just unplust either way, I'm just not committed to the cause, man.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I do think I'm just not meant to be like a baron of France.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

That's probably a good thing. Um I do also love when you're actually trying to take over each other's features. I find that part of it really fun.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Yeah, but and here's my gripe, and we'll come to it, doesn't happen enough.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And I I don't It's hard to engineer.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

It's hard to engineer, it doesn't happen enough. And there have been times when I've been tempted to mess with your city, but I'm like, it serves no purpose.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

What I think is interesting with that though is is is that a game problem or is that a learn to is that a get good problem?

SPEAKER_00 26:47

No, I disagree with that. So again, the other night I was in a situation where I was like, I could do this and I would get this and this out of it. But what but why?

SPEAKER_02 26:58

To get loads of points or the other.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

But it wasn't-it wasn't gonna call give me any points. If anything, it was gonna give you points. I was just doing it to be a dick.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Okay, fair enough. You know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

And maybe it would have had um it didn't have any in-game factor either. Like, I mean, realistically talking, thinking it through.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

Yeah, I mean, but that's one situation for one game. I think there are times where it can have a huge impact. We'll agree to disagree.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, we could agree to disagree. Uh not if you want to also advance your own position, I think.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

No, I think you can you can sweep something from under people who've spent a long time doing it, and then all of a sudden you you come in, you somehow manage to put two meeples in a huge city, and you've got the entire city. But, you know, it does happen really. I agree with you on that. But I think there is an element of I know the people who play this a lot engineer those situations, and they are able to engineer those situations because they're that good at it. So, on on that note, fun.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Three, and I feel that was a generous three.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Wow, okay. I'm gonna go with six.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Really?

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah. Because, like I say, there's a lot of really new catch phrase. Um I think there are a lot more fun games in in my collection, and I think I would be uh being subservient to its reputation and its legacy if I gave it more than that. I'd be being dishonest with myself. Um I respect it immensely.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

It's that classic thing about Oh, but you can respect stuff without actually particularly enjoying it. I respect Proust, but I don't particularly enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

But I think six is right for me. I enjoy I enjoy it at a six. If I had to like if I was being like sycophantic to it, I'd be like, oh, it's a nine, it's great. It's slightly above average enjoyment for me.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

That's that's where I put it.

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Um Alright, so let's tally up those scores.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

So that gives us an overall rating of six point eight. We round up, so that's an overall rating of seven. Which despite our very different views on it, I think is a fair fair rating for uh a classic like this.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

I think if you're into ball games and you play regular as a couple, I think, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Yeah, I mean we'll get on to the couple's ratings in a minute, but just generally as a game, I think seven is fair for Caucasian. Okay. Right, do you want to go on to the couple ratings then?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yes. So our first couple rating is table talk. Um Well, no, there is no table talk. I don't talk to you. There is no back and forth, there is no jibing, there is no there's a little bit of jibing. Oh, there's a little bit of jibing. But I mean, not really. It's only when I've done something and gone ha ha but aside from that, no, not really. And what I'd also say is the game is quite f I don't suppose it doesn't have to be fast-paced, it depends on the way in which you play, but um we do sort of pick a tile place it, there's not a huge amount of deliberation.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

So therefore occasionally there is.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Okay, sometimes there is. Um but uh so therefore I don't feel that there is that opportunity to build that table talk.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

No, I think what it's it's a very it is a very silent game um exceptionally. So I I'd like it similarly to the episode that we did last week on I know not the episode last last month, the one before on Calico, um, where you c the games are often played in silence. There's no real prompting. I mean you'll you'll you'll uh admire something that somebody's done and go, oh well done, or you know, like bemoan what's happening, or towards the end you might somebody will do something to you, you'd be like, oh you know, there'll be a little bit of jibing and back and forth, or at least there is with us. But the majority of the time this is a game you could play in complete and total silence, and nothing from the actual gameplay would be lost.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Yeah. And I also think so. One of the other things that we rate under this is the idea of getting to know you. So do you find out something new about your partner, like the way they think, the way they approach certain situations? Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

How they would build ancient French cities? I mean, it's an important thing to know about badly in your case. Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, but that's why I'm not tired of ancient cities. Ringroads, ringroads are the answer, yeah. Um okay, so how would you score? How would you score that then?

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Uh three.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah, fully agreed. Um it is not a table talkie game. So, competitiveness. How competitive is it?

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Well, we've just said I think we've alluded to this one. Yeah, you we you don't really necessarily talk to each other particularly, so it's not like you can bluff, um, it's not like you can egg up your your next action. Um and whilst you can be addicted to each other by, for example, ending someone's long road or perhaps closing off their city, um really there's not a huge amount you can do, I think, to mess with people's game. You say other people.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

I'm on I'm on a slightly different wavelength of that, I think. I I do I do think there is. I think I think the degree of competitiveness is very dependent on how you approach it. The type of game, like I I think I mentioned earlier, you could approach it as a very relaxing, friendly experience, or you could approach it as an I am I am going to beat you and I'm going to do everything I can to to both further my own position but mess up your plans. And you can I know you absolutely can play the game like that. Um, it might not be the way that we play, and I don't think we've ever been on a sort of agreeable level of the nature of the way that we're playing, if that makes sense. I think we've always been coming at it from slightly different angles, perhaps. I don't know, but there's a listener out there that maybe would like to comment, perhaps, and yeah, I mean I'd welcome comment discussion, but I do I do think it is a game that if both parties were well versed enough in it, then I just don't care enough. That's fine. That's entirely up to you, but that's not what we're rating. I mean, this is your personal rating. But if I look at it in general, if you as a pair or couple played this on a weekly basis, it could get into some really sort of heated matches down the line as long as your skill level and approach to it went on with that.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

And yet it hasn't.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

But that says a lot more about us and how much we want to play it. I'm trying to be sort of looking at it objectively. Yeah. The capacity for competitiveness in it, I think, is quite high.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Maybe. I just don't know that I've seen that or experienced it. Maybe it is there. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Full disclosure. I hate chess. I've never liked chess. I'm sure that puts me as a bit of an oddity in the board gaming community. But just because I don't like it doesn't mean I can't see that its competitiveness is a 10, for example. Is it rarely you being sarcastic?

SPEAKER_00 33:40

No, I'm not being sarcastic. I haven't really thought about it that way. I just don't see I I just don't see for the the couple casual couple board gamers that is Are we casual board gamers?

SPEAKER_02 33:55

I don't know if we are.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Well, I mean I my my thoughts is we Okay we we are you know producing this for a a bunch of people who are similarly minded to us and I just I I just don't think it's that competitive.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

That's fine, let's call it appropriately.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

Four.

SPEAKER_02 34:12

Seven I think there's a lot more potential than than than you do, and that's fine. I think that that is our ultimate disagreement with this game, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:20

See, under my notes here, because I I make notes, guys.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

I did.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

It's about how we play. Uh-huh. So even then I acknowledge it, but I j I I don't think we have had some moments, and yes, it there is that propensity there. I don't think it happens enough for me.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. I mean, this is your rating. I think uh the I'm I'm taking a level of objectivity here, which perhaps I shouldn't, perhaps I should put my own sort of gut reaction to this, in which case it'll probably be more like a six. But I think I I I do I I do have enough knowledge. I have and again perhaps this comes from playing the app with people that even when I thought I was getting good, were people that would just absolutely destroy me. And they knew what they were doing, and I think if you put two of those people against each other, it's gonna be quite a quite a fight.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, my score still stands for it.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

That's fine. I'm not trying to change yours, I'm trying to justify mine.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Okay. And then the last one is scalability and FOMO. So the idea of this is well, would having more people help and make it a better experience?

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Yeah, so we score things highly. The the higher the rating we give this, the better the less the less you need more people, the better it is.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

So a ten would be this is a perfect two-player game like chess, for example.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Well, I mean you don't have an option with chess. But let's let's let's not get into that. Um I think we'll always strike this category with two-player only games. I don't think we've played I don't think we've rated any two-player only games up to this one. Well, no, we haven't. Um but if we do in the future have a two-player only game, we will obviously scratch this category because it no longer applies.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

So, gone, how would you rate it?

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Um I think Carcassonne works best as a two-player game by a significant margin. Um it's adding more players does not add anything to the game. Uh it slows it down. It makes it more frustrating because you've got more people competing for the same tiles. Um I think it actively makes it worse.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Okay, so you talked a little bit about how you can engineer compet competition.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah. Competitiveness? That's the word.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

Um but surely then adding a third player would then help with that.

SPEAKER_02 36:33

I don't think it does because things become less focused and actually being able to carry any of those strategies out becomes much more unlikely. So it turns it much more into just uh, ooh, I'm lucky to get this tile, I'll lay our tile here. I th that that is my opinion, but I think adding, and I have played it a fair few times with more people, I think the more people you add, the more it just turns it into pick up tile, put tile, place meeple. I think it takes away a lot of that potential strategy that we've been talking about. Um and it makes a game that we established might be a little bit too long for what it is, even longer.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Okay. So my score was a question mark.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Interesting. Were you hoping that I would convince you or you're hoping for some sort of brainwave?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Um I think a little bit of both, really. Um I I I don't care, I think, is the answer.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Fine. Um I'm going to give it a nine.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

So what I would say is that I think I'm more likely to play this with multiple people. Uh I'm gonna be more likely to want to play this with multiple people than I am with you.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Um, therefore I probably score it lower. However, fundamentally I do kind of agree with you. I think it is perfectly suited to two players. I would agree that the more people you add, the longer it takes, and it's already kind of probably a little bit weighty. Um, and so for that reason I couldn't really decide what I wanted to score it, and I was hoping you were gonna convince me one way or another.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Fine. Have I? Well, it's either gonna be a one or it's gonna be a ten, so I mean you can't a one would suggest that you have to have like five people around the table to make it any point of bringing it out, and that's just not right, let's be honest. Yeah, so go on then, you've got to settle on a score. Oh, yeah. Eight, okay, alright, fine. So that leaves us with a couple's uh slash two player rating of five point six, so we'll uh round that up to a six, which I think is I was expecting a five, to be honest, because I think we we we do come from this from slightly different angles.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Um well that's the uh advantage of mean averages, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:38

Yes, exactly. Um so yeah, I think I think given our our differing opinions on this, I think that's a fair score for us to to go with.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Look, if you're a couple that likes ball games, I definitely think it's worth picking up Carcassonne I think it's great to have in the collection. I think even if you're not a couple, I think picking up it's a good game to have in your collection. I think it is a nice game for couples to play. Would I write home about it? No, not particularly if that burglar came in and stole it. Well, good luck to him.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Easily replaceable, no go out of print. Um I mean, full disclosure, out of the three sort of Mount Rushville modern board games, Catan, Carcassonne, and Ticket to Ride, this is my least favourite.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

I prefer the other two. I think the problem with the other two is Catar needs at least three people to play. Ticket to ride's a bit rubbish with two.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Which is why I've never bothered to pick them up because we so rarely have the people round the table to make them worthwhile. Um but given that in the situation, if you are like us where the 90% of your ball gaming is done as two player and you want a classic in your collection, I'd probably say this is the one to go for.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah, agreed.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Okay, well that wraps it up for our no doubt slightly contentious uh conversation.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I've just been a dick this entire episode.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

You haven't, you've been honest, which is what we like to do, yeah. We we we we never want to sort of just hype things or be sypnophantic about things just because they either, you know, hot and new or classics or whatever. We will try and give your uh uh honest opinions, which may always differ.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

That's true.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

So that wraps up this episode. Uh if you would leave us a review on your podcast Medium of Choice, that would be massively appreciated. As long as it's a five star review, I don't want anything less, obviously. Um, and until next time, have fun, be good to each other, and play lots of board games.