Board With Each Other
A podcast that looks at Board Games / Tabletop Gaming through the lens of playing as a couple or with a regular gaming partner. Hosted by Al & Hannah, We review a game each episode.
Board With Each Other
Episode 09 - Dune: Imperium - A Spicy Time
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Welcome to another episode of Board With Each Other!
In this month's episode we discuss the exceptional worker placement / deck builder with a pinch of engine building that is Dune: Imperium. We appraise it using our usual criteria, talk about how it functions as a game, what it does well and whether it's worth your time as a 2 player experience.
We reviewed the base game only for this, but will likely return at a later date to examine the expansions.
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Board With Each Other, the board gaming podcast that looks at board games through the lens of playing them as a couple or pair. So that whether that be with your partner, a really good friend, or your roommate with a spice problem that starts to refer to himself as Baron. I am joined as ever by my co-host, my wife, and my player too, Hannah Kelly.
SPEAKER_02:Howdy.
SPEAKER_00:So today we are going to be talking about Dune Imperium, which is a glorious worker placement deck builder mashup, for want of a better term. So to play Dune, each player takes control of a leader of one of the houses from the Dune universe. And basically the aim of the game is to be the first to reach 10 victory points, or be the player with the most victory points by the time the game ends. The game is played over 10 rounds, up to 10 rounds, because you can end it early, but happens quite rarely. And on your turn, you have a hand of five cards, and you use two of those cards to place your workers. You start out with two workers, you can gain one more as you play the game, and your cards each have symbols on them, and those symbols denote places on the map that you can place your your workers basically. And when you place your worker, you gain resources. So you can gain either water, spice, or solari, which is money. And you also are allowed to gain troops, which you can add to what's called the conflict. There's a zone on one end of the board where you add troops over the course of your turn, and that denotes your combat strength at the end of the turn. The victor of that combat takes uh the prizes that are on offer every every round from a deck of 10 cards. So you have 10 cards that basically tell you what what you're fighting for that round. You also have uh four faction areas on the board, which is the Benigaceret, the Fremen, uh the Spacing Guild, and the Emperor. And your cards also allow you to place workers in those spaces. When you do place workers in those spaces, you gain influence with that particular faction. Gain enough influence with that faction, you gain their alliance, which gets you a victory point, but it also has effects on your uh on your cards. Some of the cards interact with having an alliance. With regards to the deck building aspect, at the end of your turn, you will then each card you play has got sort of a top row and a bottom row. The top row are effects that happen when you play them to place a worker, the bottom row are effects that happen at the at the end of your turn when you reveal the rest of your hand. Most of that is usually gaining influence, which you use to spend to buy other cards from a five-card marketplace at the top of the board, and that's where the deck building aspect comes in. Um that is basically all there is to it. Each leader comes with their own uh skill, so they'll have something that's sort of innate that will always happen. So, for instance, when you gain spice, gain an extra one. Um, but they also come with what's called a signet ring ability. So there's a card that you start off with in your starting deck of nine, and that card has a signet ring on it, and whenever you play that card, that action takes effect, and again, that differs from between all the leaders. Helpfully the leaders have sort of a pip system on the top, one to three pips, and that tells you how complex they are to play. So it's nice for new players to choose from the one pip ones that you graduate to, and then finally uh three. Um there's also three cards that are always available regardless of the marketplace to buy. One gets you basically more influence, as is typical with deck builder games. One allows you a card that you can use to go to any space, which is quite rare. So when you play any space on the board, and the other one uh nets you a victory point immediately, but it's very expensive. It costs nine, which takes a while to work up to. Um, there is also something called a Mentat, for those familiar with the Dune universe will know what that is, but there's a space on the board that you can pay to place a worker there, and you basically get another worker and an extra card for that turn, so it's a very, very powerful um uh action to take. Uh, you as I mentioned earlier, you can at some point pay enough money to get a third worker, so that extends your turn. And there's also another space where you can get a seat on the High Council. Once you pay to do that, you place a worker there, you get extra influence at the end of every turn, so it sort of upgrades your your deck building and deck per uh car purchasing abilities. Um I think that's basically it, rules-wise, as a nutshell. It's uh it's a game that looks rather complex when you first pull it out, but in reality it's actually quite simple.
SPEAKER_02:I suppose what I would add is that this is a game designed to be played with three or more players, but what they've done is they've introduced uh House Hagel Hegel in order to make it appropriate or make it playable as two. And what happens is you have a third player on the table, if you like, who draws from a stack of cards, obviously randomised, and they will take that action accordingly. So they will go and take up one of those spaces, they will also add troops to conflict, um, and it also uh when it comes to end of conflict, you're able to buy um things like entry cards and things that will help pump up your um com your combat rating. And they've also got cards on like part of their card that allows them to do that as well, so they actually become a fierce competitor and can also mess up with your hands quite substantially. And I guess that's how they balanced it to make it suitable for two, otherwise they wouldn't be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00:It wouldn't yeah, it wouldn't work. I mean, you theoretically, I think could play as too, but I think it'd be a bit too open. Um without it, I mean it's an optional thing, but I think it would be make it too open. It's it's an autum automata, basically, for those familiar with it. Um they've sort of included that within their the the base game. Um I've just realized that what I've been calling influence is actually persuasion. I always make this mistake during the game. So persuasion is the currency used to actually purchase cards from the market, not influence. Just to sorry for that confusion for those sticklers out there.
SPEAKER_02:Influence is what you use to increase your reputation, if you like, within your different factions, and then gives you additional awards and victory points.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um Hannah also mentioned intrigue cards, so there's another deck of cards that you gain through various powers or places you go on the board, and these are separate cards that you keep in your hand that have a multitude of different effects. You have plot cards that take that you can use at any time, you have cards that add to your combat strength, but you also have game end cards that you can just keep in your hand, and at the end it will actually net you more victory points. And tactically, that's one of the deepest parts of the game is sort of hanging on to those cards and working towards that, so you could sort of surprise your opponents at the end by gaining a few more points and probably pipping them to the post as you did in our last game. Um so I I guess just a little bit about sort of worker placement and deck building games, and I think I think this is an IP-based game, and I think with IP-based games it's worth talking about sort of relationship with the with the IP. Um so worker placement games. I don't I think aside from Carcassonne we've not really played any before this, have we?
SPEAKER_02:Scythe.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, Scythe, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And arguably Stardew Valley.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know if I call Stardew Valley worker placement.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:But fair to say we're fairly, fairly newbie to the whole concept. I know there's 101 games out there that are like that.
SPEAKER_02:Is there an element of engine building to it as well? So the idea that you obviously get your third agent, so your third worker, the fact that you uh can get a seat on the high council, which means you tick over to persuasion every turn.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, there probably is an element of that. Probably engine builder light, but yeah. I think what it does, it fuses all these mechanics that you often see on their own in games, so worker plays, engine builder, deck building, and it fuses them into one glorious melange.
SPEAKER_02:I think what was quite interesting is the first couple of times we played it, we were still obviously getting our head around the rules and mechanics and stuff, but actually we both said, Oh, don't you really know there's much to it in terms of the deck building? It's a huge big deck that you can buy from. And I think then the third game we had after that, it kind of all clicked into place. I actually know this is really significant and really important.
SPEAKER_00:I think one of us lent into it really hard, and then yeah, and it just it completely won the game. So yeah, it's interesting. Um, but it is, it's it's a real sort of blend of games in one. So if you if you like one or all of those, it's it, you know, it's a really interesting proposition. Um I think it's worth saying that I've been an absolute sort of geek fanboy of the Dune universe since I was a teenager. So it's a very long time ago, um, which is also a very long time to be a huge fan of something. Um I I love the books and um obviously a lot of hype when the movie came out. Yeah, the movie sort of was was the the book coming to life that I always hoped for. Snap, snap review of the Dune part one movie that came out a couple of years ago. Um, so I think that had some influence over my uh excitement to buy this. I will say though, I'm not immune to getting an IP-based game that sucks, and I won't just like a game because of the IP. Uh uh Firefly, I'm looking at you. Not a fan of Firefly the Ball game at all. And um I absolutely adore Firefly and the Firefly Universe. So it doesn't, it doesn't um it doesn't scrub out my my my critical eye for for want of a better term. I can sort of hate on something even though I don't like the IP. So I just wanted to get that out of the way because uh this is whatever I go on to say this is not just me fanboying over the IP, I will look at this as a game, not you know, as a as a piece of something called a universe that I love. Um anything else you want to add? I feel like I've been rubber.
SPEAKER_02:So we don't have any of the expansions to go with it. No, we're just talking about the base game, and I think what we've talked about is that maybe once we've got both the expansions, two expansions?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's two expansions at the moment.
SPEAKER_02:Then we'll probably do another podcast, either with a bonus content or a free freestanding one reviewing those, but we felt that actually it's still new enough, I think, to review it. As is. As is, um and also strong enough as it is, I think, to as it is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. I think this is one of those cases where we we definitely do want the expansions, but I think the expansions out of print. Well, it's currently out of print, it's between between print runs is not out of print, so I'm waiting very patiently for those to to come back. Um and I think from what I've heard they changed the game enough or add enough to the game to probably warrant a second visit in podcast form some point in the future. So keep an eye out for that if that's what you're interested in. I think we will loop back to it.
SPEAKER_02:Um average game length, I reckon an hour and a half, maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, an hour to an hour and a half, depending, I would say. We have had a couple of very, very short games with it. Yeah, there's a couple that have ended on like turn eight, because obviously once somebody reaches ten victory points, the game the you trigger the end game uh immediately. And it is possible to get there towards the end, we have a couple of times. And saying that, it's it's it's a fairly reliable game length because the the number of uh rounds is is is ten. It's restricted, no more, no more, could be less, but definitely no more than that. Uh okay. In that case, should we go on to actually reviewing and scoring?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So we split this into two. Uh so our first category under general, the general theme is components.
SPEAKER_00:So, yes, that's the components, but also set up and tear down and all that kind of jazz.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. It is fairly quick to set up.
SPEAKER_00:It is, yeah. Surprisingly, mercifully so, actually.
SPEAKER_02:Um you've got big stacks of cards that need quick shuffle, but aside from that, it's fairly quick and quite straightforward. Yep. Um, you have a number of tokens that represent money, spice, and water. They're a bit meh.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think when I look at the sort of production values of this, I would the word that comes to mind is adequate.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, that's a good word.
SPEAKER_00:It feels very adequate and functional. I mean, you've got your you got your wooden cubes, you've got your grey discs for money, you've got your water plastic water drops, well not plastic, like wooden water drops. I think they're wooden or resin.
SPEAKER_02:No, they're not because you wanted to steal my water drops. No, they would, they would.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I wanted to steal the ones from blanters. Um so yeah, they they it's it's adequate. Uh the card stock is fine. The the thing that puts it slightly above average for me is the art. I think the art is really, really well done.
SPEAKER_02:What's really interesting is they have absolutely lent heavily into the films, so all the characters are the characters from the films.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the the actors from the the most recent film. However, they've done them in such a style that the the the ones that aren't in the film, so the the purely, I won't say purely made up, but you know you know what I mean. The ones that aren't represented by real-life actors are done in the same style that they don't, nothing looks out of place. And if you hadn't seen the film, you wouldn't bat an eye that these are these are based on actors and these are not. Um, which I think is quite nice. One of my pet peeves is anything based on an IP where a film comes out and they start to use screen grabs from the film. Like, I'm one of those weird people that won't buy a book when a movie's been based on it, and they replace the cover with the movie poster. It really annoys me. Yeah, it really winds me up. I hate it. Um a screen grab from the film, even worse. I'm like, ah, do not like that. So yeah, I'm glad they didn't go with like photographs or stills from the film. That would have probably put me off buying it, to be honest.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but the cards, I think, are all well, I mean they're cards. What more can you say about cards, really?
SPEAKER_00:Well, something. I think the player mats, the the leader mats are actually a little bit flimsy. There's already one that's probably cards. They're car they're card, but they're also very thin card. And um there's already we've already got one that's a bit buckled on the end, and you know, that's after like ten plays.
SPEAKER_02:So I've played it more than ten times, I should have thought.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, probably, but at least ten plays. And um, yeah, I just felt like those could be a little bit sturdier. I mean, even if I think back to things like Fancy Flight stuff like Arkham Horror, the sh the character sheets, they they they're slightly thicker cardstock.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, which makes it a bit more durable. So I did have a bit of a I know you can absolutely uh deluxify this. You can get yeah, you can buy a pack that they make that comes with miniatures and all sorts, and makes it a lot more deluxe. Um, but that's not really a path I go down. I tend to look at what comes in the box. I will I'm not gonna I'm not gonna spend money to make a game look prettier. That's not something that really appeals to me.
SPEAKER_02:But you're right, it is adequate. There's nothing particularly special about it, but it does the job. Yeah, um, the actual board is is good quality.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the board the board itself is lovely, it's got a really nice feel to it as well. So it's it's it's a good board. Um but yeah, everything else, as I said, just feels a bit adequate. Like I could could could have done a bit more with that, I think. Whether that would push the price point up, I don't know, obviously it would, but how much, not sure. Um as as is the case with setup, tear down's really, really quick as well, really quick to put away. And it does one of my favourite things, it comes with its own baggies for everything, which is nice.
SPEAKER_02:So you can assume if you get a puncher, you can separate everything into the but equally there aren't a huge number of components in that sense, so it's not like you need loads of board space or or you know, space in the box to separate things out, you know. You just put your little counters into little plastic baggies.
SPEAKER_00:One thing it absolutely could have done coming with though is like Scythe comes with and like Arcanova comes with, uh, an organiser for your different um your different currencies and your spice and whatnot, because all just comes in one big clump and the a few little plastic trays would knock out of this.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um so with that, all that said, I'd probably give it a seven. I was hovering around a five or six, but the artwork is really cool, so I've bumped it up a bit.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly the same. I thought it was lovely that again it it had the the film characters and I scored it a seven. What I would also say is again it fits really, really easily on our two-leaf table.
SPEAKER_00:So it's a two-leaf version, yeah. It's not a table hog.
SPEAKER_02:So it doesn't yeah, it's not a table hog, and we could probably do better with the way in which we organise it, but actually, yeah, it it's it doesn't take up a huge amount of space.
SPEAKER_00:Yep, absolutely agreed.
SPEAKER_02:So our next category is complexity, and under complexity we talk about things like how much we argue about the rules, uh, analysis paralysis, which is you know my normal uh handicap. Um, but also I think it's worth mentioning that just because a game is more complex or less complex doesn't mean we score it down. It's about how appropriate the complexity is for the type of game it is. We're never gonna score a heavy euro, zero because it is a heavy euro.
SPEAKER_00:Or ten because it's a heavy euro. Yeah. You know, depending on what plot you both, it's how well it serves the game. Is the gameplay served by the complexity of it?
SPEAKER_02:Um, so where did you go with this? What did you think?
SPEAKER_00:Well, what I think is out of all the games I have ever played, I find this the perfect marriage of complexity and gameplay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's something about it. I say it would take it took us a good two to three games to get our head into it and get comfortable with the rules so that we didn't have to keep referring to the rule book. Um but actually whilst there are a lot of mechanics on the board and lots of different moving parts, once you kind of get that and you get how your different tracks work and you get where you're spending your things in the conflict, etc., and what that's gonna net you, actually, yeah, pretty bang on.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think I've ever played a game where you get into this almost flow state where everything just fits and flows and slots, and I don't know how else to describe it aside from a flow state. Um, and it's when you see the mechanisms of the game working, it is a thing of beauty. It's incredible.
SPEAKER_02:I mean you can still fuck up someone's flow state. I mean that's a whole game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's also a certain rhythm and and pattern to it behind it where again, yeah, it's just yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, um it's it's that there's enough complexity there that means that if you do if you don't know what you're doing, and particularly with the tight length of the game and the prescribe uh the the prescribed length of the game, you can absolutely screw up and you can screw up really early.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you can completely mull your chances of winning the game. Um because there is a wide open decision space. I mean, people might argue that, oh, you know, there's optimal d optimal things to do and what have you, but I think it goes way beyond that. I I I don't think there is always sort of optimal, you have to play off your opponents, you have to play off the state of the board, and it's just complex enough to make it uh uh weighty, but without in the without the constantly referring to your own rules index in your brain, you know, you you once once you get your your head round it, you're it's almost that feeling of learning to ride a bike where all of a sudden you ride it, you know you know how to ride it, and that's when the really cool stuff happens because that's when you know it's become second nature and you know how to play with that. Um and I don't think I've found that before or since. Yeah. To this level.
SPEAKER_02:And I think because you have um what are those cards that you turn around that tell you the name of what you're gonna win each round?
SPEAKER_00:Um oh I think I think they're conflict cards. I think they're not.
SPEAKER_02:No, they can't be conflict cards. Anyway, you've got these little cards, they're small little cards, and you turn one over, some of them are randomised, some not randomised. And they tell you what you will win if you win the conflict at the end of that round. And so it's thinking about making strategic decisions about whether you go all in because you really want it and you really must win it, versus what's your opponent gonna do, what's their board state like?
SPEAKER_00:Can I make them waste a load of resources and something that I don't even really want, but just sort of bluff your way into it, and that's where it gets really strategic.
SPEAKER_02:Really, really quite good and got quite heated. Again, one of those things I don't know that it's easy to pick up, I definitely think we're seasoned board gamers and it took us a little while to get our heads around it. Yeah. But once you have picked it up, the level of depth that you get out of it, I think is absolutely. You're just like, wow, this is a and why I think as a two-player, and we'll come on to this, house why House Hagar is so important, because otherwise you wouldn't have that element of random taking away options on the board, which has absolutely screwed us over numerous times before.
SPEAKER_00:But that's the point of the the automata in this, is not to actually be a competitor, really, it's to be a spoiler. So it messes with your plans in a way and another random person around the table would do.
SPEAKER_02:Which brings me then to AP. So I often struggle with AP, and I think that there are times when I still do with this game, but because you have to be so reactive and on the fly, so you will only have two to three, perhaps maybe sometimes four if you've got a mental special cards, um, rounds per actions per round. Actions per round, you have to think so much on the fly, and you can't really plan and pre-meditate because too much, because yeah, you can't too much. You can have an agenda and what you want to achieve, but you're gonna have to go about that in numerous different ways because your opponent will screw with you and go where you want. It's worth mentioning that once you've gone on one area, once there is an agent on that area, you can't then send your agent there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we should have mentioned that in the rules actually. If you place your your your worker down or agent as it's called in this game, that blocks that space for the rest of the term for anybody else, special. Including yourself. Yeah, unless you there's one card that allows you to mess with that, but that it's that element of blocking, that really strategic blocking that's really helpful. So you might even choose a suboptimal place to go just to screw over your opponent. No, I'd never do such a thing. So yeah, how do you think how would you rate it?
SPEAKER_02:Nine.
SPEAKER_00:Ten.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, I had to question myself why I wasn't giving it a ten. Um and I just thought, well, if you use ten, then you've got one.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, I'll give tens when tens are due, and I think I think a ten is due in this case. Yeah. Um I compare it to every other game we've reviewed, it's better than than in that sense. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely for me.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And then we have Then we have Shelf Life. So under Shelf Life, we talk about things like value for money, but also the replayability aspect of it. Yeah. Um, what I would say is I do really want the expansions. Yes. However, we have played we I mean we talked about it, you said oh, we played this 10 times. We played it way more than that, I think. Um and I am still not tiring of it. It is still probably one of the top picks on our on our list.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um it's in the short list every time we sit down to board game, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Still.
SPEAKER_02:Still. Um and we play a lot of board games. So uh Do we? We should start a podcast about that. Um so it's definitely uh, I think in terms of replayability, absolutely fantastic. Not only do you get to uh role a different leader each time um not hero.
SPEAKER_00:Leader, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Leader, uh each with a different skill set, but because you have a deck building element to it as well, obviously that completely changes the way in which your hand will play out and and the way in which you you operate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there is so much variety, yeah. There's just so much endless sort of uh random element to it. Games do not play the same. They just they they just don't.
SPEAKER_02:No, they really don't at all.
SPEAKER_00:Um and there are elements of it that are very restricted. Obviously, your board spaces are your board spaces, you know, there there's usually particularly in the different phases of the game, early, middle, and end. I've noticed there's usually optimum board spaces that you everybody tends to try and go for, etc. But it is so dependent. And with the deck building element, that's that's the real secret source here, I think, because so many of your cards that you buy start to interplay with other things on the board and it makes spaces that perhaps are a bit like meh really appealing, it makes you focus in a different way.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So, for example, if you have um some of the Fremen cards, for example, become infinitely more not infinitely, become exceptionally more powerful if you have an alliance with a Fremen or if you've got another Fremen out in play at that time, and so it really forces you, I think, to adapt your playstyle depending on the random, yeah, what was available from the uh flop, so to speak, marketplace.
SPEAKER_00:On the marketplace, absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm I'm not vaguely tired of it. I think the the reason why the expansions are appealing is this is a incredibly good game, and I think the expansions from what I've heard just add they widen it, they just add more decision space.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, what you were telling me is they both of the expansions won Game of the Year award.
SPEAKER_00:Oh they're both I think they're both uh nominated and spil the jars for best expansions, yeah. Both of them, I think. I think Rise of Icks, or Rise of Ick, as we've effectively calling it. Yeah, I never called it. Um, is supposed to be the better out of the two. That's the one that's absolutely essential, apparently. But again, talking about expansions, we'll loop back to both. I think it's relevant in value for money. I definitely got the itch, but it's it's not because I'm bored of the base game, it's just because I want more of it. You know, it's that it's that it's the this I find expansions come in those two camps. I'm bored, I want to breathe new life into this, or I love this so much I just want more of it. I want it to be bigger, which is what I want for this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, how did you score it then? I scored it an eight.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I scored it in eight.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I really, I really like it. I think it's got great shelf life. I think the value for money is good. I think it's its retail price isn't bad.
SPEAKER_02:What is it retail for?
SPEAKER_00:I think it retail's in the somewhere in the 40 to 50 range.
SPEAKER_02:That's really good, actually. I think.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's good. Um so yeah, I've got very little to fault it over. Um, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:That's quite unanimous scoring from us. Yeah, it is.
SPEAKER_00:We're unusually agreeable.
SPEAKER_02:Alright, let's tally up those scores.
SPEAKER_00:Well, no, we're not telling up the scores because we haven't decided whether it's fun or not yet.
SPEAKER_02:I've missed that one, I haven't written anything.
SPEAKER_00:You always miss the fun, you hate fun.
SPEAKER_02:Is it fun?
SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah. Yeah. Um this is this is one of my favourite board games out of a C of a lot of ball games. I think it is incredibly good fun. It's incredibly challenging, and it is exciting in a way that few ball like few ball games could get my heart actually pounding like this can. Like it gets really intense.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, absolutely it does. Um, and I think definitely as you reach the sort of latter quarter of the game, and you've only got a few left. Actually, I'm like, come on, get your turned done because I'm ready to do this.
SPEAKER_00:That's where I felt my vision go but blink at the time, so that I'm like, ooh.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, very much so. And um, yeah, I don't think I've had a rubbish game. No, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I've never I've never pulled this off the shelf and had a bad time. No. It's it's it's enormously fun. Um the only thing that could improve, as I've said, is probably making it a bit bigger. So I've given it a nine. I don't know if I'll ever give anything a ten for fun unless I find a perfect game and then just sell the rest. Um but it's as close to that as it can be for me. So I've given it a nine.
SPEAKER_02:Yep, so I've given it an eight. Yeah. Um I think I perhaps maybe that's unfair because I'm very excited about expansions and I want to see what it brings, I want to see where it can go to. Um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:I'm very happy with it.
SPEAKER_00:So if we add all those up and get our average, that gets us an eight overall.
SPEAKER_02:Uh 8.25.
SPEAKER_00:Well, 8.25, but we round as always. So eight. Um, which I think is I I think is spot on. I think it's a cracking game. Yeah, it is a cracking game. It hits all of the marks of all of our categories, probably let down a little bit by its components, which I think is fair.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um so yeah, eight. Yeah. Solid game. Um unequivocally recommended, basically.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So our second category then, or as our second set of scoring, um, is specifically looking at things from that two-player perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then our first category, is this the bit that you're supposed to do because you're supposed to host?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's fine. I mean the hosting hosting. I just take with that. You usually enjoy the score, so this is how Hannah slowly squeezes me out before you know it'll be the Hannah Kelly board gaming podcast. That's fine, I'll just do the editing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm all right for that. Um, so our first category under the two-player rating is table talk. So that includes things like the amount of dead time where you just sat in silence doing your own thing, the level of interactivity between you as players, um, but also the amount of you know ch-chat and trap chit-chat. Um and also that kind of getting to know you factor, which I also think is quite an interesting one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:So come on, off you go.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think there's a fair amount on this, but I think mostly when you're sort of blocking each other. I I I I think it's a game that does promote table talk. I think there's a fair bit that goes on um from a competitive stance. I think you're not really making sort of direct tactical moves against somebody else, you're more spending your turns spoiling what they want to do by doing what you're doing, and then at the end you come into a direct conflict, which is almost kind of predetermined depending on how the rest of the round's gone, without some surprises. But there's particular things around intrigue cards, for instance, and interaction where you're actually nicking intrigue cards from each other. I I think there's a lot of interplay, and um the the trash tour can definitely come towards the end.
SPEAKER_02:I think probably early on in the game there is a fair bit of dead time because actually you're just establishing board space, uh sorry, board state, and there are things that you need to achieve. So you need to get your third agent, you need to get your seat on the high council, and until that's done, really I mean you stay out of each other's way to a certain extent, yeah. Yeah, you get those things done, and that's when then real heat kind of kicks into play.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And that's when the really tasty victory conditions start coming, like the two victory point ones and what have you.
SPEAKER_02:Um I think because you're buying cards from the marketplace, there's always that element of competition about who gets that really good card that you've both been having your eye on for a while, but you just not had enough persuasion to be able to get it. Um, but also you do need to explain your cards and you need to explain your turn a little bit to a certain extent.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sometimes you have to say what you're doing, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I also think any ball game where you have to go into direct conflict in any way, shape, or form, and even though this is still just placing troops into a conflict or deploying troops, you're always going to get that element of trash, talk. Yeah. Um, and the intry cards I think are absolutely key in this because it's like a har gotchie moment. And what's also so cool about entry cards is that they could be all sorts of things. They could be plot points, they could be things like game end conditions.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:They aren't necessarily cards that will immediately or or have an impact on the conflict, but you see that your f your your opponent over there has got five entry cards, you can think twice about how much you commit to a battle, thinking, well, actually you you might be able to pump this up quite substantially.
SPEAKER_00:That's when it starts to get like an intense game of poker towards the end. Because you see all the stack of cards like, what are those? What are you holding on to? What are you doing?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And there is a board space that if an opponent's got more than four cards, you get to steal one at random. And the last game you had, I had it, I had a game plan for the end game. And Hannah did that to me and stole the the pivotal card that I was going to use for the end game, and my entire my entire game fell to pieces because I leant too hard on something, and I shouldn't have done that, because there's a way, there's a way to spoil that. And what however great your you think your plans are, there's a way to spoil that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, or Hans Hegel can then turn around and pump out like an additional nine nine treats in a conflict, and you're like, ah, well, you know. I can kiss that goodbye. I think it's probably worth mentioning a a couple of things. Like if you don't win the conflict, if you are runner up, you also get a prize, but that prize is obviously less. If you draw For first place. For first place, you both get second prize.
SPEAKER_00:If you draw for second prize, there's no third place in two-player games. There isn't more if you play it with more. Yeah. Um, but in two player games you only get there's one first prize, second place, third price, you only play with the top two.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And House Hegel can't gain rewards.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um so yes, I do think there can be some interactivity, particularly at the beginning, but it definitely there is lots of talking when we play and lots of discussion. Sometimes that is just literally reading cards, but we definitely constantly interacting.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. Um has it got the most table talk or the most interactivity out of any game I played? No, definitely not. Um in the competitive space, even in the competitive space, I think there's more interactive games you can play in the competitive space. So it is not like a hundred percent, you know. So with that in mind, I've given it perhaps a slightly harsh seven.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I gave it a seven as well.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, did you? Okay, great. We're getting on the same page then. Alright, so moving on to competitiveness. How competitive is this game? I think we've alluded to this already quite substantially.
SPEAKER_02:Um I have to say, it scratches a competitiveness itch that I don't think many other board games really hit for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, definitely.
SPEAKER_02:Um, to begin with, again, when we first started playing it, perhaps less so, but now definitely those last turns are nail-biting. There is a real sense of I can do this, I can do this, just praying that the right things come up. You can be absolutely screwed over at the last minute as well because you've drawn a hand of absolute nothing, and then you did it last time. You were frantically trying to get more cards. You're gonna need more cards. I need to be able to get it.
SPEAKER_00:I need more cards, I've got to win this. And it's not working out. Watching it, and I'm like, oh you're fucked.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's absolutely brilliant.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the compet I I think the easiest way I can I can attest to compare its competitiveness is this is I think the only game in our collection where I'd look at it uh from a tournament perspective where I don't think I'm good enough, but I'd actually do it because I think it's I think you're in control enough to actually make this a fair tournament game. Like, I I would I would absolutely do that. I think I'd watch people play in a tournament. I I think it's that competitive, like uh just to see what they do.
SPEAKER_02:Um it you have a level of ball gaming fandom that I perhaps don't, but no, but but I think I'm trying I'm trying to illustrate how how competitive this is.
SPEAKER_00:There there are random elements, but those random elements happen to everybody. And I think it is yes, you could argue that some leaders are better than others, yada yada yada, but I think it's it it's it's not as asymmetrical as if you're not gonna be able to do it.
SPEAKER_02:No, it's not at all, because again, it depends on a fat stack of cards in your um marketplace or whatever you want to call it. You you know, y you anything could come out and you have to lean into what's there. If you don't and you just end up getting a smattering of random cards, you're gonna suffer for it.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Yeah, um so But then everybody suffers, you know. Where you get differences in the playing field is because you haven't done what you should do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, you've made mistakes. Yeah. Usually.
SPEAKER_02:Or you've been unlucky.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you can be unlucky, but you can also fix it. Because I've seen games where you've been really unlucky and you have fixed it, you won.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because you that unluckiness almost sometimes focuses you. You go, oh, I'll stop thinking about that then. You know, slot down, that's over. I'm now gonna lean really hard into this.
SPEAKER_02:I think what's really interesting as well, and uh we've both noticed this, is quite quite often I will be lagging behind to begin with in an early game. I will be twatting around, doing my own thing, sorting my stuff out. Yeah, and then all of a sudden all of a sudden that I just come into my own and I don't it's like your engine takes and you just don't start firing away. Yeah, and that's obviously my playstyle and how I adapt to work it, but again, that's whereas I go really hard at the start, but then sometimes falter later on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perhaps because I haven't been focused enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um but that's also really interesting again because it you know you can you can look at the ball state and you can absolutely flip it in a couple of rounds, you can absolutely change.
SPEAKER_00:You're never completely out with this, from what I've noticed. I mean, you you got something like five victory points in two turns last time, um, and that was that's half the track. You just shoot off there.
SPEAKER_02:And we've also had House Hegel like beat us in victory, not in overall game, but as in she can storming into the league, where I'm a bit like, oh we need to do we need to talk about this bitch.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah. I imagine that competitiveness, I mean we'll talk about this in the next category with more players, but uh I mean we've only experienced this as a two-player game, and it's it's it is a absolute fine phone booth, you know what I mean? It it there is there it it is intense and it is fiercely competitive.
SPEAKER_02:And yet, do you know there are other games where I've got really cross that you've got and we're not gonna talk about scythe, yes, we're gonna talk about scythe. Scythe, yeah. There are games where when we play competitively and I lose, I get my knickers in a twist. This not the case.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you just take other turns, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I I But you're not a bad loser.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's something about scythe that just makes you rage.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's true. Sometimes I get annoyed, but Yeah, but you get over it.
SPEAKER_00:It's kinda. Sometimes it only takes a week. So, with all that said, what would you score it? Ten. Yeah, to ten. Yeah, it's perfect for me. It it it it is the peak competitiveness out of our collection. If I really want to take you on, this is the game I will choose. Right, so last but not least, let's talk about scalability and FOMO. Would this be better with more players?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, I think it might. Again, we've not played this with more players, but I think if you play with a full house, it is going to get really, really competitive. You're all gonna be fighting over the same resources, you're all gonna have a rubbish turn. I think it absolutely I would love to play with four.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Does it need three plus? No. As we've attested to, we have an incredible time. Do I have FOMO? Yes. Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think if there was a board game meetup near me, this is the one thing I grab off my shelf and go off running. Yeah. Because I I desperately want to play this with four people. I think it would be an incredible experience.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so yeah, I mean there's not much more to say on that. I just think it would make a great game even even better. Just put into the transcendent category for me, I think. Uh, but it's not an absolute requirement, so I've gone for the five because I just think you know, does it does it need it? No, does it want it? Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I was a bit more generous, and I said six because I think I still hit all those points. I still get that intense level of competition with you. We still get a third dummy character screwing up my plans and my agendas, and she really can sometimes. Um do I think I'm missing out anything? No, but would it not be much better experience as a few or so? Yeah, I gave it a six, a bit more generous than you.
SPEAKER_00:Fine, yeah, and I th I think there's probably a level particularly of tactical, I I think the tactics with like three or four people would be quite different because you'd have not just a spoiler, you'd have an actor participant working against you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I think you'd have to, whereas we tend to hit the main slots uh and the main the the the the the typical areas, I think you'd have to think so much more creatively outside a box about where you go. Yeah. Um, and I think that would then make some of the currencies more important. Scarcer. Yeah. So we often talk about how there's an awful lot of sp like spice is your main thing that you spend. Um money becomes somewhat redundant after a certain moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which the which of the expansions fix apparently.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Um, but I think it would just make everything so much scarcer, and you'd have to make it count for so much more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you also get Kill the King scenarios because if somebody's gone off into the lead, you'll find players ganging up to wreck their plans to bring them down, which sometimes has weird adverse effects, you never know. So yeah, yeah. I I think a five is where I put it. Yeah. Okay. So that gives us a two-player pair rating of 7.5.
SPEAKER_03:So eight.
SPEAKER_00:So eight in that case, we'll round it. Uh I imagine some people are gawk at that score for two players, because I know some people are like, oh no, it's not very good with two. Yeah, I I I solidly disagree. Um, I think as a two-player game, I feel more comfortable with a seven and a than an eight, but that's what it's come out as, so we'll go with eight. So, an eight and an eight.
SPEAKER_02:Cracking game, cracking as two player. Yeah, absolutely. Probably would be better with four.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean it'll probably just be ten and ten with four players, but you know. Right. So thank you very much for joining us uh for another episode. Um, as always, if you listen to us on your social media uh not social media, your podcast.
SPEAKER_02:I mean you can try and listen to us on Facebook if you want to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I wouldn't advise it. Don't give Zuckerberg money. Um on your podcast medium of choice, please do leave us a review. We we we don't have many, and it'd be really nice just to have a few up there. Um but until next time, have fun, be good to each other, and play lots of board games.
