Special Episode 03 - Exit: The Sinister Mansion - Panic Room!

We're back with another special. In these specials we look at unusual, out of print or super niche games that don't fit the normal mode of our usual fare.

On this episode we talk through a game from the Exit Series, billed as an escape room in a box. We talk through the game, it's puzzles, our obvious relative stupidity and Hannah insists on referring to escape rooms as panic rooms throughout - a small insight into her psyche! We hope you enjoy and we'll be back soon with a regular episode. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Board with Each Other. We are the review podcast that looks at board games and tries to answer the question: how do they play as a pair? So if you love board games and often play as a pair, be that with your significant other, your BFF, or perhaps you find yourself an escape room that you can't solve so you decide to get out a nice soothing board game, then we're the podcast for you. I am joined uh by your usual regular host, Al Simpson.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Hey everyone.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Uh and I am Hannah, and tonight we are reviewing Exit.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

The Sinister Mansion.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

The Sinister Mansion. So Exit is a series of escape room-esque games. Uh the idea is that each box is a unique or standalone puzzle that you get to solve, and they come in a range of difficulties from one up to what five?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Five, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Uh the one that we played is a level three.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Yeah, yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Um the basic premise of the game is that you're obviously trapped in a room and you need to solve puzzles to escape. Um, and the way that it plays is fairly standard across all of the series. So you start off with some contents in your box, including like a little bit of a book or a guidebook, um, and you'll be given a riddle to solve. That riddle is solved by um using a dial.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

It's called a code wheel.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

A code wheel, yeah. Um, and you have to find the corresponding symbol, which will be on the top of the code wheel, and you use that by using your guidebook. So, for example, that might be a triangle, a star, a square, or something like that. You try and solve the riddle, and that will give you three numbers. You plug them into your code wheel and that will give you another number. You then go to your answer deck, which is a stack of in this case 30 cards, and you draw that card. If you're wrong, it will give you a big X and you have to go back and you have to try it again. If you are right, possibly right, it will give you a um sort of like a symbol card, like a card with a series of symbols. You then pick the corresponding uh item that you are trying to unlock. So maybe it's a wardrobe, maybe it's a desk, maybe it's a lockbox, and it will on that answer card, it will tell you which other answer card to go to. So you then put that card back in the deck, you go to the next one, and if you are right, um, it will then give you uh another more riddle cards. More riddle cards. Yeah, you sometimes need multiple sets of riddle cards to be able to solve a riddle. So if you haven't got enough, you might have to go back and solve an earlier one, but otherwise you progress through the game as such. If you get stuck, there are a stack of clue cards. The first clue card generally tells you which riddle cards you need to solve it, so if you're missing a couple and therefore you've got no hope, within some general pointers as well, how to solve it. The second one gives you a bit more detail in terms of what you need to actually do to solve that riddle, and then if all else fails, you've got your card number three uh which will tell you what the solution is and how you arrived at that solution. You obviously need to solve all the riddles in order to progress through the game.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

There's a handy app which basically takes you through the rules in lieu of a rule book. I think as a game that's probably very much designed to be played as a oh, we've got some friends round, let's let's crack something out, and there's not enough of us to do a murder mystery. Um it's it's that kind of niche, isn't it, really? Yeah. Um but there is a handy app that gives you some flavor text and will also give you uh a run through the rules, so tutorials so you can sort of play it for everybody and also has a timer.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

Yeah. Scoring, I mean, there isn't really scoring as such, but I mean yeah uh is it about how many how how long it takes you to to solve the entire thing and for you to escape, and also how many clues you need to use along the way.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yeah, you'll get a score out of ten, depending on the the intersection of those two things.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yeah. Um you also in the box, certainly in the box that we had, there were other stuff that you got to unlock. So, for example, additional materials, bits of things that you need to use, um, and that's sort of like a uh a thing that you get when you you you you solve a problem and you solve a riddle.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, you'll get more gummans.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah. Um so as for how long it will take, well, it depends how stupid you are. Yeah. Um but I think you're absolutely right, it's designed to be played across the course of an evening.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Just before anybody thinks that we're being all snoozy and snarky about this, we're very stupid.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

We are very, very stupid. Uh, and that's why this is a bonus edition rather than an actual core edition. Um, I suppose then my next question to you now is have you ever done an escape?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I've done a real life escape room, yeah. I've done a real life escape room. It was a really fun experience. Um, but uh Hannah, who knows our more expanded group of friends, I was stuck with some of our crazier friends. So it was definitely an experience. Um I had one person badgering and I think trying to pick up the woman on the other end of the phone. I had somebody who just decided they were right about everything and just went off and did their own thing. Um I was sort of crying in a corner at this point. But it was a fun experience.

unknown 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

So I have not done a panic cream. The reason I- Escape room.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

You would panic in it. It's an escape room.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I mean, yeah, it's funny that I would call it a panic cream because it is not my bag. So, uh first of all, you generally do these things on like stag or hen d's or perhaps like work functions, and I know for a fact I would get stuck with that person that drives me up the wall. Um, I also am a bit hard of hearing, so having lots and lots of people talking, shouting over each other is just not a conducive of the thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

Yeah, it sounds like something out of your nightmare.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, I just and I I don't like people.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I mean you do like people.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I do like people. I'm just I'm just a bit introverted, like I find it all a bit draining. Probably not the sort of thing I would want to do, and yes, I call it Panic Room for a reason because it the form of it makes me feel a bit panicky. So it's not my bag. So when you bought this home, which was a charity shop fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah, I don't think I would have bought this au naturel or such. I think I'd I spotted this in a charity shop and having seen them around, and and we've never forayed into puzzle games, really. It's not it's not something that's ever sort of like, oh, we need to do this. Um I just thought, hey, let's give this let's give it a crack.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

So but I think for that reason it really excited me because actually I could get that puzzle escape room experience at home and an environment that's probably a little bit more conducive to you not panicking and getting fired, not panicking and also possibly not getting fired. For stabbing someone.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Yeah, so it seemed like quite a quite a fun prospect, and it's the kind of thing that we just went on holiday and we took a on holiday with us. Really easy, it's a very small box, easy to pack. It's like, hey, it's an evening.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

After the kiddos gone to bed, so yeah, uh the the the appeal was definitely there.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah. Um is there anything else you want to say, or should we move on to ratings?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

No, I think this is going to be a very short, snappy one, um, given the nature of it. Um and I I imagine some people are questioning us like, oh well, this is a series of games. Why haven't you, you know, done a few of them and then done a review? We'll get to that. That will become clear as we go through. Um so yeah, I'm happy to crack straight on to scoring to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Alright, so first under our general scoring criteria, components.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, components. Set up, tear down, you know, the usual. Um I think for what you get in the box, it's fine. I think I've been more and less wowed by things at similar price points. Um I think the level of detail that's had to go into creating it all, uh you've got to sort of admire.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah. Um So I think what's really amazing is that even if you get the um you you you get your answer, and even if you you get to a card and you think, oh yeah, I've solved it, there's still that opportunity that you've got it wrong. So actually the way in which they've calculated the answer decks and stacked them is really quite ingenious, although Yeah, that's more mechanics than components though.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Okay, alright, fine. Though I mean the components themselves are fine. I uh there's nothing to write home about here, but I obviously there are price constraints to it. Um, you know, you don't want this, you don't want we didn't mention it at the top, but this is definitely a one and done. Um we often take an approach to legacy one and done kind of stuff where we try and actually keep it in such a way, like for example, Gloomhaven, we use removal stickers and what have you.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

So we bought the add-on set that allows you to make it replayable.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

And we've encountered legacy stuff before where it's like, oh you've got a rip-up car, you just don't rip up the cards, or you just don't do that. But mechanically, in order to play this, you will have to rip, cut, do all s fold cards, do all sorts of things. So it is it is genuinely a one and done. So with a one and done like that, that is genuine, you want to keep the price point low. You are paying for a cinema ticket, you're not paying for a repeatable experience.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

So I understand the the the slight flimsiness to some of it with that.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

What I would also say though is you know, we talked about how we took it on holiday, it is perfect for travelling, yeah, it takes up very limited space, you can't weigh a lot. Yeah, it doesn't weigh a lot, um, and uh set up it takes seconds, like it doesn't take very long at all. Um so I think for that, and especially in terms of how well it serves the game for what it is, I I rated it quite highly.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Um my only slight bug bit, and this is a personal taste, is the whole thing art style-wise comes across very much as sort of computer-generated semi-realism art, which doesn't really do it for me. Um it feels very much like uh if you've ever played the mobile uh game, the room, um it feels a lot like that. It's just sort of this sort of slightly dingy, hyper realistic. I I I didn't respond very well to the art style, I actually prefer something a little bit more artistic. And I think the reason I do mark it down is I feel like in terms of visual puzzles, if they've taken a slightly more artistic route with it, they probably could have packed more in there and done a bit more with it.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

It's interesting that you say that actually, because now I think about it, like the box itself doesn't really fit the tone of the materials that are inside or the tone of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

But again, they've got they've they've come out with their box style, they all sort of match, that's their branding, so I I kind of get that. And I mean everything's perfectly functional, but it's nothing that blew me off my perch and went like, oh wow, so I gave it a seven.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Equally, I gave it a seven. I think it's perfectly surfaceable, I think it's good, I think it's solid, but there's nothing to write home about.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Cool, okay. This is an interesting one. So we go on to complexity, and this is how well the traditionally the rules of the game serve the complexity, and I've treated as such this time around, because when you're talking about puzzle games, obviously complexity plays a huge part of that. But I am going to park my feelings about that side of things and shut them into the fun category. I am going to talk simply about how the game plays as uh the as as a rules set. Are you on the same lines as me or you were you thinking more along and talking about how complex the the puzzles are? Because I just I don't think that really fits in this category.

SPEAKER_01 11:29

Yeah. So I kind of went where you're going.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Um I suppose you you go first.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Okay. I mean, uh this is quite short for me, for for on that basis. I think uh as a rule set it works perfectly fine. It's perfectly it suits it, you know. There's nothing there's nothing that interesting here. It's just, you know, find the cards, do this, do that. Um anybody can pick it up, which I think is is is part of the the reason for you should be struggling with the puzzles, not with a rule set. Yeah. Um so I think in that sense, how well does the complexity serve the game? Really well. Like it's it's very, very easy to crack out and set up, and very, very easy for anybody at a myriad of board gaming levels to be able, okay, I know what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah, so I would absolutely agree. I think it was really easy to pick up and understand. We never once had an issue around the rules or what we needed to do. I think the app actually really added value, it really explained it in a nice, coherent, um, formulaic way that made it really accessible. Um, and the devil is obviously in the puzzles itself, but the actual concept of how to play the game, the mechanics of it, piece of cake and really easy to understand.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Yeah, so for that reason I've given an eight.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yep, you can.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

I think, yeah, it's it's it's beauty, isn't that so easy to pick up? No, that's what you want from the scratch.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Anyone could do it from a sort of pre-teen, perhaps, up to granny.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, yeah. But if you guessed the puzzles, but we'll talk about that a bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Alright, so then on to shelf life. So that includes things like value for money and replayability. And so the price point we've established on this is like what 10 to 12 pounds. And I have to say, if you think about how much it costs per person for an exit room, yeah, like yeah. Then I think that is absolutely a brilliant price point. I think you've got a whole evening's entertainment.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

Yeah, I mean th you know, you get four people around the table and they they chip in three quid each. You know, it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a cheap, it's a cheap few hours in terms of as entertainment goes these days. Which is, I mean, shelf life, i if if you took that out of it, this would be a one because this is a one and done and it's it's a two-hour experience. You know, you get other one and duns that still last you a lot longer than that. But I've marked it up a few points because of its cheap price point. However, this is still shelf life, and this is still how much you know you're gonna get from it. And I think I have to cast an eye into other games of the space, and you know, you you you want to spend 10 to 12 quid on a ball game. Um you could sushi go. Yeah, you could go and get yourself a sushi go. You could, if if the Planets Alliance pick yourself up a copy of Love Letter, things like that, and I mean the shelf life on that is massive, so I would be doing a disservice of rating this anything above I've rated it, I feel.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

I also, with my sustainability hat on, um, which does bother me, I think, i in the way that doesn't necessarily bother you, I do have an issue with the concept of one and done, but it's permanently one and done.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

You can't trade that on, you can't reset it, you can't give it away.

unknown 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

No, I agree with you on this point.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

You know, I do think there is something quite fun about being able to cut up and rip up cards and all that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Uh and there is a novelty in that, but also It's all the junk that goes with those, no, because then you've got to bend the box and all the rest of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

And so there's an awful lot of waste, and for me, that's not great. And I'm pretty sure there could be other ways of doing it, maybe. I don't, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, and it feels disposable in a way. Maybe I should be like I'm a board game collector, I like my shelf, you know. I like Are you a board game collector?

SPEAKER_01 15:15

Because we've not talked about that in our marriage.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

Yeah, it's just dawning on you now like a year into a podcast about you're into a podcast about board games, mate. Um there's that I like the permanence of it all, I like uh seeing things on the shelf and being able to pull them out, and that that just doesn't exist in this the the the two worlds don't combine in that sense at all. Yeah, um so yeah, I mean I thought quite a lot about this, and I I've settled on a four. I didn't want to be absolutely like oh yeah, we're gonna give it one, but I also couldn't give it anything above a five.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

So I I mean I also gave it a four, but I think as well as the whole sustainability in the back of my head, you know, I'm also looking at this as a series of games, and they're relatively pretty there are quite a few of them.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah, they are quite a few.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

So I'm also thinking about it in terms of the series in general. And will we be going back and buying another one?

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Let's not spoil anything. I think I think there can be a third from from where where we move to next.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Anyway, so I also scored it a four. Okay. But it is a really good price point.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Alright. Did you have any fun whilst playing it?

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I fucking hated this.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Oh he did. Oh he did. Oh he was he was he was so mad, like towards the end, I've never seen him so surly and so sulky. I was like, it's okay to be done. We we can we we can put it down, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Sustainability, concerns aside, I had a great joy in chucking this in the boon. I I I'm not jesting. I did hate this. I am slightly jesting and exaggerating. I hated this because I'm too stupid to play it. Yeah and I found it frustrating, and I'm not a stupid man. I found it frustrating Yeah, I'm sure you disagree. I found it frustrating in a way that I don't think much else has ever frustrated me. And I take video games into that as well.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

So I I think we'll talk about this in the two-player rating. I think unfortunately for you, you are quite logical and you are a bit of a problem solver in your own way, and I think being confronted with things that we felt like we were really close, we felt like we were beginning to get somewhere and begin to understand because obviously you go into this and you're like, Well, I'm not I'm not gonna do very well to begin with because I need to learn how it's but like when you learn to do crosswords, you have to learn how that crossword puzzle mechanism works. Same principle, but then all of a sudden it got we thought we were onto it, we got really painfully close, and we knew we were onto the right track, but then it just got really fucking weird, and we were like, Well, how would we have ever even known that?

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah, I think I'm I'm before I start going on various runs, which I assume I will, I'm gonna caveat this with this is definitely my personal experience, and I'm gonna try and talk to that as much as I can, then you can make your decisions about this. This is a really well-loved series, so I appreciate I might be massively an outlier, and that's okay. My main issues with it were twofold. Number one, and my my my real bugbear with it, is I found while I found some of the puzzles quite fun, I found the means, the leap from getting the riddle card to knowing what the puzzle is you were supposed to be solving really obtuse. And I had that problem from the get-go. Um I did not understand bar one puzzle. I did not understand what you were meant to be doing with the tools that were in front of you, and we had to use a hint card for every single one, bar one, just to guide us to say, oh, what you need to be looking at is this, and what not necessarily what you need to be doing, but have you have you have you looked at this in this light? And I found that that leap between riddle card and actually getting stuck into the puzzle itself, that that leap really, really annoying and frustrating. Because I was like, I don't understand what I'm meant to be doing.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I think what was also quite telling is that sometimes when we did have to look, we had to look at the actual solution like a few times before we jacked it in. We never finished this, by the way. No, we jacked it in. We jacked it in.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

About three quarters of the way through. I was like, I'm enough, I'm out.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Um even on a couple of occasions when we looked at the solution, we couldn't even figure out the side.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

We struggled to reverse engineer it.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Reverse engineer it. Oh, I think that was also because we were feeling a little bit pissed off at that point. Drunk.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Uh pissed off. Um, and also I think we both checked out at that point. So we were like, eh, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

But there was one in particular where I was like, I don't even know how that works, even when you re reverse it.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I figured it out in the end eventually. But I would also point out that we went too far. So is this one when we had to cut cards?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

That was gonna be my second my second point. It's okay. There you have to make physical changes to this game. Um, and in one instance it was cutting cutting cards up. So we had the first clue, we we thought we knew what we were meant to be doing, but it turns out I cut the cards too far, which meant the puzzle was actually undoable, and that annoyed me. I think that was the final day on the coffin for me. I was like, fair enough if you get the puzzle wrong, but it's it's guiding you to do something to these cards, and you can do it wrong, and it's permanent, so therefore the puzzle becomes unsolvable, and that really wound me up, and that was the point I was like, I'm done with this.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

What I would say, in its defence, is as I said at the start, you've only done one as part of we would never choose to go and do an escape room, it is not what we naturally gravitate to, and I don't think that we are naturally that way in kind, and I think both of us are perfectionists in our own way, and as a result, when we get so we get confronted with stuff that we can't do, you know, our reaction is oh fuck this.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah, I mean you say that, but I I'm not in the ball game space, but I think back to video games. I grew up playing point-and-click adventures, which are all about this kind of stuff. Um, and they're one of my favourite genres of game growing up. Like, I do love a good puzzle. I do enjoy solving a really good puzzle. But I mean, if any of you are l as long in the tooth as I am, you will get this analogy. This is not Monkey Island, this is Disquiled. There's an obtuseness to the puzzles that almost want you to call a helpline. It's that level of like you need to give the player a little bit more of a a thread, a carrot, whatever you want to call it, just to go, okay, you may you know the the there's that leadingness that comes from good. good puzzle design that I feel like this misses and falls into the obtuse category.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

And again, I would also counter that and say this was a three star game out of five stars and we've never played a single one of these before. No, maybe we went into too deep. I think we probably went in too deep, but like I say it was a charity shop fine so why would you not pink it up?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

But even if I played it easy and I'm ones and got to this I don't think it would have made a difference.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Do you reckon? No I don't think so. I I think maybe potentially we would have done or at least we I don't know. There's no way of knowing.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah. But yeah to go back to the core concept of this I did have fun and moments.

SPEAKER_01 22:41

It really helped to be on holiday in the sun.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

But when you got into the actual puzzles themselves some of them were really well designed really clever and I really enjoyed doing them. I don't want to spoil anything but there was something on around maps I'd I I really liked that puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

Oh you just went in and you were like yeah I've got this we got it and you you figured it all out and I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

I really enjoyed it. There were a few puzzles that I really enjoyed. There was one that did things with the components of the board game which I thought was really quite clever. And I was like aha I took my hat to you designer that was really clever. But those moments were fleeting and they were very early on and the the further we got in and I seen the complexity of the puzzles ramped up some of them were just unfun. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

They they I just felt out of my depth and see the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah I just I was like this starting to feel I work which is not what I want to do in my board gaming session.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Okay. So how did you rate it?

SPEAKER_00 23:38

I gave it a three.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Oh but we're bang on with all our scores tonight. I also scored it a three.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah um I was tempted to throw my toys out of the power and give it a one but I did have fun on a couple of puzzles.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

So I also think I kind of acknowledge that it is not my bag. It is not a game I would ever pick.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah you know yeah which you know you're labelling it that's fine. Yeah. So again listen you know take take take that you know don't take that as a a damning this is not and clearly it is a fun game because it's really popular and loads of people do it.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

So obviously people do enjoy it. Just not for us. Not for us.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

And yeah I depending on your depending on your taste in puzzles it definitely is on the obtuse end of the spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

So let's tally up those scores and see where we end up.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Okay so that gives us a over rating of 5.5 and as much as it pains me we have to put the top two a six. I don't think this is a six.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Actually do you know what I think six to seven is a really fair price to score this.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I think the fact that we didn't enjoy it because it's not our bag you know we've downgraded it and I think it's a classic don't listen to the scores listen to the content you'll you'll get a flavour of of whether you'll like it or not.

unknown 24:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Alright so on to our two player ratings and the first of those is table talk and getting to know you. So how well does the game allow you to communicate and get to know the other person.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Well it's a problem solving game if you didn't talk you'd be squished.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

So you're constantly talking constantly floating ideas off each other and here's the thing I did find out more about you or at least I've known you for a really long time and I knew when you begin to lose your temple with it. And I think you did yeah and I think there is something really quite charming about a game that allows me to see what we lose my shirt slowly sort of succinctly.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah fair enough I mean it as far as this is a great date game. Oh it is well yeah I know depending on the person obviously um yeah I i the table talk uh element in it is fantastic you have to communicate you have to talk constantly you have to learn things about each other because and fail in front of each other as well yeah which I think is also uh a a bit of a gift really actually you know you need to be able to yeah so if you have a board game curious uh I wouldn't say partner but you're dating somebody that's board game curious I think this would be great to crack around like I I highly recommend that that side of things so I've given it a nine yeah I gave it an an eight yeah I think it's really good for that yeah um absolutely fantastic okay um competitiveness slash cooperability this is a really odd one yeah so I think I'm probably going to adjust my score because I've been thinking about it more as we've been talking yeah because it's not a traditionally com cooperative it's a cooperative experience kinda but it as far as you talk about ball games it's not it's not a traditional co-op you you're working together to solve the puzzle but along those lines you also have somebody looking over your shoulder while trying to solve a puzzle and I think if you mileage here very much varies on personality types. Yeah you might have somebody who's like I know what this is and I'm just gonna do it and blah blah blah blah you might have somebody who's who's perhaps feeling a little bit unconfident unconfident and does know the solution but then will back off because they're feeling a bit but then I also think it's a great leveller because you've got that overconfident person who decides that so your quarterbacker who decides they know what they're doing they go go ahead and they get the answer wrong and then that creates the space for the other person to start piping up.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

I think my problem with this is that I don't give a fuck I don't really give a shit whether we win or we lose I'm just not really that invested. So I'm like meh I mean you could try doing this you could try oh no I don't I don't know. Yeah there's no fantasy monsters to fight so you you your level of investment is already down but again that's that also that's that's the thing about the personality thing I'm not particularly invested in it so I'm not gonna put my all in.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I think while you do have to work really competitively there's not a Cooperatively cooperatively not competitively. I'd like to see competitive puzzles really snatching the map out of my hand um why do you have to work cooperatively there's also not a great deal of space with materials to try and solve a puzzle at the same time so you do end up taking off each other and going oh let me do this.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Oh I've talked about that under scalability.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well you haven't I mean that's the I will talk about scalability. It didn't mess up the edit massively um but yeah there there is this element of there's not it's it's not large enough like you think but I kind of get the impression when you go to a panic room that one of you will be on one corner solving one thing one of you will be over the corner you're solving another well you can't because you can only work on one at a time. It's too linear you're working on the same puzzle. And you need the source material in order to be able to solve that and realistically I mean you could probably crowd a few people around it but the it's quite small you're not talking like a massive micro macro map kind of scenario here you're talking like oh there's this tiny little bit of whatever all these couple of cards so nothing was bigger than A4. No so how how well does it work cooperatively? It's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

I definitely felt like we were in it together um and I definitely felt like we were fighting in something together and I do think that when you were exhausted with your line of thinking I had space to come in and take over. But again we solve problems quite differently and whereas I think I I'm definitely more of a reflector I like to sit and absorb and think and I watch what you're doing. And then adjust that it kind of allowed us each to have our own moments to shine and play off each other and the example I think the very first puzzle in fact was a really good example of when we worked together really cohesively to be able to solve it. But I think after that I did begin to lose interest because of it.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Fair enough yeah okay I mean yeah this is this was a tough one for me to score I have given it a five.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

So I gave it an eight because again I just I I think that it has an inherent ability to be able to balance itself in a way that I haven't seen other co-op games do. And I think that's because the nature of it. Yeah fair enough I think my other problems with it I'm gonna talk about under scalability.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Okay alright well let's go on to scalability then so FOMO now do you do we want more people around the table than two?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

So this is my issue. The fact is it worked it was a bit of a struggle for us to play and solve a puzzle side by side because of the size of the map etc you start adding in more players that's going to become completely impossible.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

I think you and I are going to massively differ on this.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Oh really?

SPEAKER_00 30:43

I think we're gonna massively differ on this yeah I think this as an experience would be a lot more fun with four people round the table.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Do you reckon?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

I do because I think it takes some of the pressure off individuals I think it adds in different ways of thinking which will probably make the game easier. I absolutely agree um I think you don't there's less chance of two people like us getting locked in a tangent with somebody else going actually you offer on that tangent I'm gonna think about this this way I honestly think this actually cries out for three or four.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

So I think that as a player who kind of is a bit of ambivalent about the whole thing and doesn't really give a shit whether we win or lose I think adding more players would have made me even less engaged with it and I would have just swanned off and but it would have made it more of a amusing social experience.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

And I think I think that's where this might actually shine quite a lot. How do you mean because I think there'd be more banter at the table I think there would be more bigging up other people when they got the puzzle right I think as a social experience I think it would work better with more people around I think this is something that would fit very much in between the space that is a two player board game and a ten person murder mystery I think you had four people round well in total I think four would be the sweet spot for me I think this would be a really fun time.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

I think three is a really good sweet spot.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Well three of three I think you know fine um but I think there are probably distinct advantages to it being a two player yeah there's probably advantages yeah but also for all the things that I said right at the start which is that we know that's not how I that's not who I am or or the way the what the way that I roll you know but how I thought about this was would I have more fun with a couple more friends and I think the answer is yes I would I don't think I would quite the problem you are a terrible playing companion you didn't give a shit from the start I had a rubbish experience I couldn't finish the puzzle you were no help I threw it in the pin yeah no that's good no that's that that's not it at all that's not uh that honestly is not a dig on you I just think it'll just be more fun with more people and I think while people are having a really good think you would have a little bit of a sh I j I just think it would be it would bollocks up your score if you do this like I want to get the best score then no you probably just want to do this alone if you want to do that but I think as a greasing the wheels social experience I think this would be better. For me anyway I think I'd have more fun with more people. No I don't fair enough well I have scored it at four because of that.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I scored it an eight okay alright I think it's great at two and I think it's you differ yeah I I yeah I think it's absolutely fine for two as long as it's your jam but I think that's I think that's cool because it's what do you what what do you listener want to get from this.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Yeah and you've got two differing points of view there and what what personality type you identify as are you a little bit introverted and find people annoying or you're annoying extroverts like me and what want people to a witness my intellectual glory and which by the way there was no intellectual so if we tally that up that gives us a gener a two player rating score of 7.3 so 7.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

And I think I suppose what I kind of want to say about this is the reason we're releasing this as a bonus episode is because I think we're kind of aware that we can't judge an entire series based on one game. We didn't finish it it clearly isn't for us.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Um but hopefully if you're listening it gives you a flavour of what the game is about and what whether it will be for you or not.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah. Yeah which is kind of what we wanted achieve with this and why it's a bonus episode not a fully fledged monthly review.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Yeah. Um so thank you for listening. If you liked what you listened to then please do feel free to give us a review on the podcast medium of your choice. Um but until next time be good to each other and play lots of games.