Episode 17 - Terra Mystica: Maximise Your Mermaids

Thank you for joining us for another Episode!

In this episode we take on another true classic of the genre, the mighty Terra Mystica.

We'll talk you through in detail how the game plays, apply our usual scoring criteria and in this case rather differing opinions. We also tackle if this is still a great experience at 2 players or is it indeed 'literally unplayable' as the discourse around it sometimes suggests.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Board with Each Other, the board gaming podcast that looks at games through the lens of playing them as a pair, whether that is as a couple, or with a good friend, or that dwarf that you live with that just keeps burrowing through into next door and creating tunnels between houses. I'm L. Simpson, and I'm joined as ever by my wife, my player2 and my co-host, Hannah Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hi guys.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

So today we are taking on another big one, another classic, because it is now 12 years old, and apparently, you know, that's long enough to be called a classic. But it is a a a heavyweight of the board gaming hobby, and that is Terra Mystica, the most beige of beigeurs. So in Terra Mystica, you take on the role of a fantasy race. And you've got all your usual fantasy tropes in there. So you've got halvelings, you've got dwarves, mermaids. Yes, mermaids. Which are very common in fantasy literature, giants, etc. etc. and different variants of humans. And the role the the object of the game basically is to take over a map. So there's a map of a fantasy land, and you need to take over as much as possible of that with your structures. You can only build structures on a type of land that has affinity with your race. So for example, uh dwarves like to build on sort of rubbly, stony ground, the giants like mountains, uh witches like forests, etc. etc. And when you start the game, you will place a couple of um what are called settlements, so your your your most basic structures down on any square on the on the map that matches with your faction. But from then on, you're going to need to terraform surrounding squares from whatever terrain they are into the terrain that you need in order to place more structures down. To do that costs a resource called spades. To obtain spades, you either need to use various powers that you unlock during the game, or you need to spend workers, which is another resource. The final resource is money, coins, which also account towards victory points at the end of the game. So, you know, as a push-ball mechanic around spending money for things and not having that money left. To build your structures, they also cost coins and workers. You get income at the start of your turn depending on how many structures and what structures you have built. So the more you build, the more income you get. But after the first tier, there are three tiers of structures. Those structures are replaced. So if you build a tier two structure, you have to replace a tier one structure with it. So again, the the mechanism of the income that you get every turn differs depending on what's out on the board. You can only build adjacent to a space that already has one of your structures in it. And in the case of trading houses, which is a second-tier structure, if you build adjacent to another player, you get discounts on the amount of money that they cost, which is can be very, very powerful. Money is quite scarce, particularly in the early game. However, there's a there's a flip side to that mechanic that if you build in a space next to somebody, they get power at the sacrifice of victory points. Quite unusually in this game, you both start 20 victory points, you don't start at zero.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

The only way is down.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

The only way is down. And to gain this power, which is yet another uh mechanic, which I'll explain in a second, you need to pay victory points. So, for example, and it depends what size of structures you have that they've they they're placing their their structures next to.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Complicated maths.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Yes, complicated maths. Um that all interacts with your power pots. So you have three pots on your player board, and on those you move these little purple pips in between to show how much power you have. You use power to uh enact several very very powerful um changes during the game. So you could spend power, for instance, to gain workers on a turn, you could spend power to gain spades, uh you can spend it to gain money.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Build bridges.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, build bridges. Um so it's a very, very important resource, but it's got a mechanic where uh they all your power starts out split between uh pot one and pot two. Pot 2 needs to be pot one needs to be empty before you can put anything from pot 2 into pot 3. Only in pot three is the power usable and then it loops back up into pot 1. So you need to be careful when you use it because if you just burn it off straight away, you're then back in the situation where you're having to pull all the power. Whenever you gain power goes from one to two, not two to three. Hopefully that makes sense. Um also at the start of your turn, for each game, you there's a random set of five bonus tiles that are that are dealt out, and these all usually affect something you can do during your turn, or it will affect what resources it will add to your your income at the start. So for instance, you in player order you choose of your choice out of five. Um for instance you'd have something that gives you an extra six money that turn, or you get something that you could use to gain a spade during that turn. Each of the bonus tiles that aren't chosen every turn start getting coins placed on them. So the longer they go unchosen, the more appealing they become. So it sort of balances them out, and like I say, there's a random. Um in terms of victory conditions, there are there are there are several. The first is the player with the longest uh the the most connected structures basically wins and will win. I can't remember at the top of my head, I think something like 16 points. The person in second place gets half of that, usually, or two-thirds of that. The second is the players who have reached the highest on the cult tracks. There's an extra board which represent four cults air, fire, water, and land.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Wind.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

That's air. Wind is air.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

That's embarrassing.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Well, yeah, definitely leave that in. Um and again the three mechanisms either through paying power or by building religious structures, or just as a bonus, depending on your faction at the start of the game, you move up those tracks from zero to ten. As you move up those tracks, they also give you power. But to reach the top spot and lock it out, you need to build a town. To build a town, you found a town. Found a town. To found a town, you need a total of seven peps depending on tier. So tier one is worth one, tier two is worth two, tier three is worth three. You need a total of seven peps and four linked buildings. You can then found a town, which lets you a whole bunch of victory points and usually another bonus along with it, and it also allows you to lock out a colt track if you get that far. Um, and you get the at the end of the game, you get first, first, second, and third placing on the cult tracks for each individual one. So if you win all of them, that's a massive whack of victory points at the end of the game. And finally, there's a conversion rate for money. So at the end of the game, you totally lock for every three coins you you have, you get another victory point. Um anything else you'd like to add about the rules?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah, so when you place your tier two and tier three buildings, you get to unlock a let's call it a bonus.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

They're called favourites.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Favoures, yeah. Um, and those are quite powerful, they usually tick over every turn, and it means that you can, for example, move power from one pot to another, or it might be that you gain income each turn, or it allows you to found towns for smaller um smaller numbers of buildings. Smaller numbers of buildings or pips. Yeah. Um so they they are quite powerful and worth collecting.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah. I think it's worth mentioning that each faction plays differently. Each faction has got two powers. One that they have innately from the start of the game. Um so for example, uh Hobbits and burrowing. Yeah, dwarves can build structures underneath water, and they count as sort of a link, whereas most other most other races have to build bridges if they want to link their structures into one. Um then they get a second power once they build their stronghold. So you've got two tier three buildings, you've got a stronghold and you've got a sanctuary, I think it's called, which is like the religious one. When you build your stronghold, you unlock a second power, um, as well as a good load of power income every turn. Um the game's played over six turns. Yeah. Um, each turn you also have a set of randomized tiles that will give you a victory point award for something you do during the turn. So, for instance, your tile may say for every structure, every settlement you build, you get two victory points. And on the right hand side of each tile will have a conversion rate of where you got to in a particular cult track that will give you an award depending on what the tile says. So, for instance, if you for every four you've got in the earth cult track, you will get a spade to use at the end of the turn.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

To a terraform a plot.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Which is r very, very key in general in the game because making your plays to coincide with when you're going to get the most victory points, depending on how your tiles have panned out, is one of the main cruxes of it really, and it's that thinking several turns ahead. Each round, I should have mentioned, it goes back and forth between the players taking actions. You can take one action, uh one action per turn, then you go back and forth. Um, there are no limits to the number of turns you can have, but the first player to pass, i.e., end their turn, because they've run out of resources. Because they run out of resources, or just decide to, gets to pick the bonus tile first at the start of the next round.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

And they get to go first.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

And they get to go first. So that knowing when to pass and and planning your passes again is is uh a key part of it. Um I think that's probably enough rules. It it is it is a heavy game. Um, probably one of the heavier ones in our uh collection. It is very daunting when you first pull it out because there's an awful amount of iconography and 350 different wooden tokens and chips and what have you. It's one of those games that can seem very, very intimidating when you first delve into it. Um but once you start to get your head round the iconography, it all kind of fits into place.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

What I would say is that because you've only got six turns and once you've actually learnt how to play, games are actually fairly short. So I would say, yeah, maybe an hour at most.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, I'd say an hour to an hour and a half, but that is with two people. Obviously, when you're playing with three or four, I I would I would I would book out, especially for initial games, I'd book out a good three-hour slot to play to play this because that actually could go on quite quite a while. Um and it is also a very thinky game, so your mileage might vary depending on how much people like to consider things.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yes. If you're playing with me, for example.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Okay, or you're on the opposite of the spectrum, you play with me who just does stuff. Um so yeah, I think uh yeah, the mileage will vary in terms of how long it takes, but I think most of our games tend to run about an hour, an hour and a bit ish at this point. But we are played it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah. So I'll have a number of uh a number of weird rules in life. I like rules. You do like rules. Um and one of those weird rules is um around the number of times we try things out. So for example, for TV we have to watch three episodes or something before we sack it off. And with board games, the magic number seven, it's magic six. Yeah. Okay, alright. Um, magic number six. And I have to say, this game is a perfect example of why actually you're right.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

I'm right three times a year on average.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yes, that's your one time this year. Um I think when I first started playing this, even for me, I like to think I'm a bit of a seasoned board game, or I kind of know my way around a board game. Um, I know my way around a meeple. Um, but it definitely took five games before it really began to click, and by my sixth game, I was kind of away.

SPEAKER_03 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:52

So I think there is like a real testament uh when you pick up games that you really do try and give them a good play test. And I think why we are so adamant that we always review things, or we always play things at least six or seven times before we'll review things.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot to take in. And I think your first few games you're just sort of concentrating on one little part and just.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Absolutely, so I completely ignored the cult track. I was like, I don't know what that is, I'm ignoring that for now, and then you whooped my ass. Um and so I think, yeah, it definitely definitely not for newbies, definitely not for beginners. No. And it definitely takes a little bit of work in the early stages.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Yeah, it does. I mean I'll talk about this a little bit more in one of the categories, but it's it's a game with a very high or potentially limitless skill ceiling.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

It is a skill-based game, it's based on perfect information, nothing is random well aside from your your starting stuff, so your bonus tiles and your victory con your your turn victory conditions. Nothing is randomized and everything is everything is visible. You know exactly how many victory points your opponent has to be.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

You know exactly what your opponent's got as well in terms of resources and how much they're gonna get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

And as is the case with games like that with perfect information, uh, a good player will beat somebody who's new every time. Or they at least they should, or they're not playing very well. Um and it it is one of those things that i it's really good to come up learning together, because if somebody has played a fair bitter, that's it's going to be a very uphill climb for the other person.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Um just so seems to happen that of all the games that we own, this is your jam.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah, this one works. I got my head round this.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Your Weird Lizard brain?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, my Weird Lizard brain got got its head round this one a lot quicker than most other games. I if you have heard of other episodes, it's a bit of a running joke about Hannah does tend to win most of our board games. I'm not very good at board games despite posting a podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Maybe you shouldn't think about them very much.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

No, I just I don't think I do, I told you. Um but this one for some reason just clicked to all the right places in my brain, so I'm I'm I'm fairly confident that I'm quite good at this one.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah. Um and boy, is it satisfying to beat you? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Which is great. That's the whole thing. That's the joy of games like this, because you, you know, that is actually satisfying to win and beat the other person. Um just a quick note on expansions. There are two expansions for this that I'm aware of. We have and play with fire and ice, but we're quite new to it was quite a recent acquisition, we're quite new to playing it with that. I know there's a larger one called Seafarers that adds a few extra.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

More mermaids.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I don't think there's more mermaids, but who knows? I don't know. I don't know. I know there is I know there is another one. Well, I know. Um, but they are they I I could attest that fire and ice is very good. It's uh it adds an extra six factions, a new map, and a bunch of other little cool things, like a randomizer bag and a way to do because again, this is very is quite well balanced, but there are factions that are better than the others, and you have sort of an auction mechanic if you're playing with loads of people, which you can auction or victory points to choose your factions first and all that kind of stuff. We as ever tend to play with random factions. Um there is a sequel to it called Age of Innovation, which is as far as I understand it a more complex version, if you need that in your life. And um, there's also sort of a a side rejig of it called uh Gaia Project, which is more highly rated in the Board Game Geek top 100, um, which looks very appealing, but um we haven't played yet. Um sort of sci-fi instead of fantasy, really, but with a a modular board instead of a set one.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Wellybot mermaids.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

We can only hope.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

So on that note, shall we move on to scoring? Yes, let's move on to scoring. So our first scoring category under the general uh theme is components. So we're talking about board space setup, that sort of thing. Yeah. There are lots of fiddly little pieces. Yes, there's a lot of wooden cubes, wooden cylinders, wooden buildings, wooden bridges, wooden counters. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

Although good marks straight out the gate. This is one of the first games I had that came with sufficient numbers of baggies for everything. In the box. Surplus baggies are really good, so they know how how you're gonna. Also, what a mess it would be if you didn't sort it. Um I mean the first word that comes to mind with it is functional.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Yeah, do you know there's nothing fancy about it? Stripped down is kind of what I said. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah, you've got your different shapes of wooden cubes.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Uh you have meeples, the wizards? Yeah, they're called wizards.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

No, they're called priests, and then system calling them wizards. Um yeah, you've got your classic meeples, you've got various different shapes of wooden buildings, you know, very very Catan-esque.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Um your bridges are pretty much roads from Catan, you know, all that it's all that classic look and feel that you'd expect from a Euroboard game. Um and there is a lot, but obviously you have different colours for all of the different, well, each of the different factions, uh it's a two-sided player player board, and they share a colour, but there's a lot of different colours to go around, as it were.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Um There's nothing fancy about it, it does what it says on the tin. The artwork on the actual faction sort of image portrait is quite cool. Yeah. But there's not a huge amount of it.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Yeah, yeah, you just got one picture for each faction, basically. Um but yeah, it's it's very clean and very precise and very. But nothing to write home about.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

No. And I would say that setup, because the amount of small little fiddly pieces, does take a while. And their round cylinders are always falling on the floor, so you're hunting around on the floor trying to find that one little.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Do you have a habit of just escaping though? Yeah. And um, I think out of all the games that we have, this is the propensity to have accidental lost pieces like big time, because there's so many little wooden pips and chips, and you know, all the rest of it, it's it's always a bit of a a worry. You've got to be very careful you get everything back in. Um and yeah, setup does take a while. Tearedowns a lot quicker. Yeah. Um, but setting up does take a little bit. But again, if you're doing it as a pair and you both have your sort of roles and doing the setups, you can get through in about 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Um, so I scored it a six. It is good, it does what it needs to, but nothing special.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I scored it, I scored it a seven. I think I bumped it up one for the surplus baggies, so you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Oh my god, okay, alright, yeah, fine.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

No, I I think I I'd say about a seven. I think it's functional, something to write home about, but there's no negatives either. Yeah. Really.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

So then on to complexity. So complexity includes things like AP, semanalysis paralysis, also arguing about the rules, but as we always say, it's not necessarily about how complex a game is, but how well that complexity serves the game. So this is a heavy euro. It is designed to be complicated and it is designed to attack your brains. What I would say is the iconography on it is really alienating, and I think that's probably why it took so long for me to get my head around it. Each of your factions have obviously their own separate skill set or rules or whatever. Even now, I still have to ask you to translate it for me. I'm like, what does this mean? What does this do?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, particularly on the faction boards. I think a lot of the time, uh, even now, I mean, I've got them all memorised, I have to look at the rule book and see what it means. You can't tell what it means just from the iconography. Sometimes I can, but sometimes you can't. Um, but it is a case of almost learning a bit of a hieroglyphic language. And again, once it falls into place, you're right. But this is this is definitely the most intimidating version of that I've seen so far. Like there's a lot to sort of wrap your head round in terms of what everything means. And yes, I take your point that their character boards, the skills of the character boards could perhaps be a little bit more clear without having to refer to the rule book every time you say, Oh, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

However, there is no actual writing. So, aside from explaining the rules, which I mean in itself is gonna be quite burdensome, it does cross a language barrier.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, it's completely language independent once you've got the rules all the way, because everything is iconography. So that has advantages as well. Um in terms of how complex the game actually is and how well it serves the gameplay, I think is one of its main plus points. Because, as I said earlier, um it does have an incredibly high skill ceiling. It is a complex game, but it's not so complex that you're constantly referring to the rule book once you get going. The only time we ever look at the rule book now is just to check the faction stuff. What does the faction do? Um I think the concepts in in isolation are fairly easy to wrap your head around. It's the combination of everything and how everything interplays together. And I think once you get your head around it, a lot of the complexity, as it were, comes with the actual gameplay. So the complexity is trying to figure out the puzzle that that particular knight's board and set of tiles has presented you with, and how your faction best interacts with that puzzle. Um it's very much a game of sort of maximization. You you you try and get squeeze every last drop out of your resources in your turn, because if you don't you can quickly get left behind. And without sabotaging yourself for future turns. Yeah, without sabotaging yourself for future turns and going too hard too early and and therefore then ending up, you know, be kind of lost the next turn.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Um financially and morally bankrupt.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yes, well morally? What are you doing? That means let's not go into that.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Um I'm gonna challenge you a little bit there because the whole cult track thing. So I obviously I always said like the first couple of games, I kind of ignored it because I didn't really know what it was or or how it works. I don't necessarily feel it's particularly integrated particularly well with the rest of the game, and it feels like another way to get victory points. I I'm not sure that I uh yeah, I just feels like a almost a bit tacked on for me.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I would disagree. The reason I would disagree is it's one of the main mechanics that you use your priests for.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Well, no, you use your priests also to level up your other things. Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

That that's the that's one thing you can do with them. But but again, it's about choices, and you can choose to neglect it, but if you neglect it, you're peril.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah, but yes, but I mean you can say that for any any game, any sort of scoring criteria. I just again I feel like it's another thing to worry about or to focus your efforts on that is almost ancillary to the main point of building hamlets and building towns. And therefore, you know, we talk about complexity and how well it serves the game, I just feel it's a little bit tacked on.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Okay, fair enough. I I strongly disagree. I think it's a vital component of it. I think it it adds an additional dimension to it. I think it would be if you were just if you took that away entirely and just concentrated on the building of the buildings, it would still work as a game, but I don't think it would be nearly as deep.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Okay. I mean maybe. Maybe I'm just still salty about having forgotten about it for those first times. I wish I could continue to forget about it.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

But if that's uh that's how you feel, that's fine. Um yeah, I mean for the this for me is one of the best marriages of complexity in gameplay I know of. Um I I absolutely adore the rule set. I once I had got my head around it eventually. I love how complex it is, I love how many different layers there are, I love how many different choices and options you have constantly on how you do things. Um and I love the fact that you you you're presented with a different puzzle every time, you're presented with something quite no no two games seem to play the same, and I don't think that would be possible without the depth of the rules set under underpinning it.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

Okay. How did you score it then?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I gave it a nine.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Okay, so I gave it a seven. Okay. Um I think that um yeah, it's mainly the iconography that definitely put me off to begin with, and I think I'm scoring it down for that. Um, the cult track as I've mentioned, and I'm also not entirely convinced that and perhaps this is more of a two-player issue, um, that there is whilst we've had some real night nail biting games and how we've got to those victory points and those end points are different, I'm not really sure I necessarily see it quite the same as you do.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Okay. Shall we move on to Shelf Life?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

And value for men.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Um, so one of the things I think that is great about this is that it is very complicated, and most of our very complicated games stretch on for hours and hours and hours. And actually, that this doesn't for us. So if we want to stretch our brains and have a bit of a thinky one, but we've still only got limited time, this really really fits the bill. And I think because of that, it's a it's a really fantastic game, and it's gonna sit on my shelf like for shelf for for a really long time.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, yeah, yes. I mean, I uh I don't ever see myself getting bored of this. Um I don't think there's ever been an occasion where it's been suggested I haven't wanted to play it. Um I have just as much fun, like god knows how many games we are in now that I did when I was just starting to get my head around the rules. Like I I have a good time playing it every single time I play it.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

And there are enough factions I think that allow you for variability, so I think you've played all of the factions at least once, except for some of the newer ones.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Um I have not because I think I more of a learning curve for me. So I like to play with my actually I only played mermaids once and they didn't do very well. You know, they are they're my nemesis. I will play them again and I will win.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

You define a couple of factions that you kind of stick to.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's because that's in my realm of comfort and my comfort zone, so I I kind of stick to them. But um even then I think you know you do have playoffs between the two different factions. Yeah. Um, I suppose, and again, this is going sort of towards our two-player rating, it's about how much you get that into play when you play as two.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah, I mean I've got I've got a lot that I'll say.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, yeah, and we'll we'll talk more about that later, but I think you know, there is a huge amount of shelf life there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, I mean, I I can see myself playing this in ten years.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Like I I don't think I'll I mean I I am very, very curious about the sequel and uh and the guy project. Yeah, I'd like to play that. Maybe when we get them it might kill this, and you know, I I think they are the answers is where that happened. I'm glad we went in at this level and not the later ones, but you know, that that that would be the only scenario I could see myself moving moving this along, otherwise it'll always be part of the collection, I think.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

How much does it retail for?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Um I think it's about 60.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Of course, that's exp that's pricey, I think.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah, it's it's I'd say it's about average for a box that size with that number of components these days. Um I I I think I think that's about fair.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Um you'd be hard pressed to find something with that amount of stuff in it for for less than that.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Um again also production materials, like they are wood, so you know, that does drive drive the cost up a little bit. Um and it is a classic and it can operate on that name, so you won't see it half price anywhere, kind of thing, you know. It's very rare. Um but I gave it a ten because I I don't I just don't see myself getting bored of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Um so eight for me. Yeah, again, I think you you're absolutely right, we will probably still be playing this in ten years' time, and it's a frequent one in our rotation um that I don't think is gonna wear out anytime soon.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yeah, and I mean uh the depth is so massive that you know you dive into it and you feel even close to touching bottom. Like every time I think every time the depth just seems to get deeper every time we play. So there's that to it as well, which is the constant pull. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

So is it any fun? Go on, go on, wax lyrical about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, I mean I think I really have, to uh to be fair. I think I've I've touched on most of the points why I find it so funny. It is an immensely satisfying game to play. It tickles something in my brain that just I mean, I can say the same for a lot of good Euros, but there's something about it that just when things work, when you have a plan, you execute it, it comes off so satisfyingly. When you actually find that term where you you've timed things right and you're getting loads of victory points because you're putting the right things down because that's what the victory point card wants. You're planning out your resources and you're getting all your sums right, and everything just plays off as it should. Um, you get chain reactions going, it it's it's super satisfying. It's really, really satisfying. And because of all that, because of its complexity, and it because there's no no hidden information and nothing can pull the rug out from under you, you you win or lose depending on how well you play. Um and it makes losing easier, but also makes winning more satisfying for me anyway. Um because if you lose, you felt that I messed up, my opponent didn't, and you know that. And if you win, you like I play better.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah, uh so yes, I agree with that. It is a very satisfying game to play. I don't know that it scratches the itch in the same way for me as it does for you. Yeah. Um, but what I will say is that quite often because resource management resources are so tight, you are counting things down to the very last penny, maximising everything you possibly can do, which often causes a lot of analysis paralysis for me because I I have to plan out each turn. Don't you really get that so hard with this?

SPEAKER_00 29:00

No, you don't, which is what surprised me. I thought this would be really bad.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Yeah, I think maybe it's because in the early games I didn't know what the fuck I was doing, so I was just like, well, you know, yeah, playing a bit more like you. Um so perhaps maybe I don't have it so bad, but I do feel like particularly early on in the game, when you make mistakes it punishes you really hard, and then it's really difficult to catch up, and you're kicking yourself about that stupid thing you did in turn one and how you misspent your wizard. Warlock, priest, priest, yeah, whatever. Your meeple. Um, and that happens to me quite a lot. I think maybe because I don't necessarily see the puzzle that you do. So I yeah, but I do think far enough ahead, it's just I can't quite get there.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, I don't mean you don't think far enough, you do yours think more so than me, but I don't think that puzzle adds up in your brain the same way it does for me. So I see almost like a a thread, like a through line to get from here to here to here. And I just I don't think your brain necessarily works like that.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Yeah, and so then I I do feel like I'm kicking myself, and and that's maybe the bit where I have less fun.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Maybe I should be more forgiving of myself.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah, you are very hard on yourself, you're very frustrated when you haven't done something optimally.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Um, and again, but that that that's different personality types, isn't it? So again, if people are like that, you get frustrated with yourself, but it I think the point I made that one of the reasons I love it so much, but might be problematic for other people, is if you mess up, it is you that has messed up. You can't blame the game. Yeah. You know, and and if that if that causes you to get frustrated by everywhere, you know. Um the only things I would say, the two the two slight knocks on it, is depending on your faction and the state of what the board has presented to you, the first couple of turns can feel very slight.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Yeah, you don't feel like you're getting anywhere, you don't feel like you're doing very much, you feel like you're constantly battling and fighting for resources. Yeah, or just trading water. And just trading water. When really you need to see it as laying the foundations and prioritising what actually, is it that I need money, therefore I need to put down trading houses, or is it that I need workers, in which case I need to put down settlements? For example.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah, for example. One thing I have noticed is the more we play, the better we get at it, the longer our earlier turns are getting. I have noticed that there has been a creep up in terms of how much we're getting out of those early turns. So again, I think there is a little bit of like a sort of skill thing there where you you learn to maximise those early turns, and also what you should be concentrating on in those early turns. But you can get combinations of factions of bonus cards and victory conditions that can make those turns feel very, very slight. Yeah. Um, and again, that just depends, it completely depends on the game.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

But you're both in the same same situation.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Yeah, you can't be in the same boat, really. Um the other thing with it to be aware of is it has got a little bit of a runaway leader problem where you can get in the situation where you like turn four out of six and the writing's absolutely on the wall and ready, obviously, on the wall.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Well, you say that.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

There are people one of us caught up, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah, so we've had a couple of games recently where you've been storming into the lead, but I've picked you at the post, or almost come close to pipping you at the post.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah, yeah, probably but probably because I thought I was so far the leader got a bit complacent as well. And go like, oh, you know, I'll just coast to you that you've actually had a plan and I haven't. So there's all things like that, but I do think potentially it can have a bit of a runaway leader problem, particularly if there's a slight skill gap. Yeah, and that could be quite disheartening for another player or group of players.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And don't forget that as I'll said at the start, you start on 20 victory points, and that's because you can trade victory points for power. So actually, by turn three, you could actually be behind where you originally started.

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Yeah, but with an immense amount of bank.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Um I mean, unlikely, but you know, it it it's plausible, and that doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

No, it does not. But for me, those are very, very minor quibbles.

unknown 32:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So how did you rate it?

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Nine.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

So I gave it a seven.

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. Not one of my favourite games, so I'm I'm very comfortable giving it a nine for fun. I have a blast every time we play.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Okay, so let's total those scores up.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

So that gives us a grand average total of 7.8, so we round, so that's an eight for Terra Mystica, which I think is befitting its classic status.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Okay, so now for our two-player specific uh categories, and the first of them is table talk.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yes, uh I mean the th the short answer to this is not a huge amount.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

It's uh it's an odd one because there's not an awful lot of sort of direct interaction over the table with each other when you're playing it. There is interaction when you bump up against each other on the map. And there's an awful lot of using powers before the other person, which I don't mention in the the rules part, but a lot of the power-based uh thing actions you can take once you use that that's it for the round, you get a little X over it. And you can't use it again. So there's a element of you like sort of getting in before other people. Um but in terms of actual sort of interaction verbally, not a huge amount.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

No. And I mean you can kind of explain what you're doing for your turns, and but aside from that, it's it's kind of you know it really. And I think to a certain extent you do keep things close to your chest because you don't particularly want to like explain what your strategy is or what you're aiming for. Um so no, there isn't a huge amount of interaction.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

It's one of those quiet and thinky games, really. Um what I will say in its favour is the um the format of taking an action and then going to the other person and back and forth means you're not this is a game where somebody might have to sit there for quite a long time in silence. Well, if somebody played out, if you had all their actions, for example, but that back and forth is quite snappy and it keeps everyone engaged, so it's not sort of like loads of downtime in between.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

However, if you have multiple players, you can have more than two players. I think again, turns would get quite long and your board state can change quite a lot. Um so you probably do then need more thinking time because actually you kind of know at the start of your turn what it is that you're aiming to achieve by the end of that turn.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yeah, fair enough. And that could very well be the case, yeah. But again, you you with everything being out there, people aren't doing things in secret, so you've got to keep a close eye on what people are doing so you understand the way the board is changing and what actions they're taking. Yeah. Um so yeah, I mean I didn't I I gave this a five. I don't think it's a massive, massive markdown to it, but it's not the most interactive of games.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah, so I gave it a six. Okay. Um, again, because I think we do still talk and we do still chit-chat and stuff happens, but yeah, it's not the most interactive of games. So then we have competitiveness slash co-op.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

Yeah, definitely competitiveness in this in this part.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Well, yes. And I would say that when we play it as two, actually we don't bump up against each other a huge amount, and quite a lot of the time I feel like I am in some ways playing very much solo and looking at my own resource management and my own um uh yeah, resource management, and what can I maximise on my turn. It's about playing with my current board state, where I am, and what's the best that I can achieve with the hand that I've been dealt with the aim of getting more victory points than you.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

So, yes, there is obviously it's fiercely competitive, and towards the end, like absolutely, but for a lot of the game it often feels a bit like solo and you're there.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

That's that's strange, it never feels like that to me. Because I think it very much there's an element of reactivity to it that is not there in some of the play solo together type thing, like my thinking about something like Mystic Vale, which is very much feels like a solo game we play together. I don't get that feeling in this at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

I think it's different when we play games where we've got our factions next to each other, so we're competing for tile space to terraform those tiles, or where we are getting bonuses because we're building buildings against other people's buildings and we get like victory point trade-off. But for the last game, for example, um, we had to play uh at opposite ends of the map because of various victory conditions and the expansion, which we won't get into, but actually it meant we played an entirely solo game where we never even touched each other.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Yeah, you say that, but then there's other things going along aside alongside the map. There is the cult track, yes. The cult tracks, there is the power-based actions.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

Power-based actions don't really come into it until later game, and I would also say that to a certain extent, neither do the cult tracks because you need your wizards to use them, not wizards. Priests. Priests.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Um yeah, there's also the bonus tiles. There is there's an element of racing to it all the time that I get from it.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, but I don't get that I'm racing against you.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

I feel like I'm racing against uh times that you you've scuppered. Maybe it's because I've done it less to you, but you've scuppered my plans so many times by grabbing the.

SPEAKER_01 38:03

Oh yeah, but that's because I can see what you're gonna do. Yes, and so yes, there is that competit competitiveness, but that's not that's how it's not it's not the thing that I feel most. I feel like I'm almost competing with myself. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 38:17

Okay, that's fine. No, I I I get a huge competitive vibe from it. I do find it a very competitive game. I do find it, at least in the the gameplay space, quite interactive. Um there's the element of you know building next to each other, but the I think it very much depends on your game plan and your faction. Because there's been times where you put down like, oh, I'm coming right next to you because I I want I I I need that to execute what it is that I'm going to do. I think that's a lot more challenging in two-player games because it's so wide open. Um I think it's unavoidable in more you know denser multiplayer games. Um, but I think if you want to lean into it, it's you can. And there have been times that I have because that that fit live action and fit what I was trying to achieve. And I think the the race of the cult tracks can get very, very competitive. I think that is but particularly late game, if you're both relatively on an even keel, that can get very, very like back and forth. Um and you're again you're just trying to squeeze the most out of your resources to make sure you beat the other person on that track.

SPEAKER_02 39:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

And that's by its very nature to me is competitive. And maybe it's that abstractness of there's no conflict, but there is competitiveness.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Yeah, I know. See, it's not about the conflict for me, it's not even about that, because again, for me, racing up the cult track is about the resources that I have, and yes, it would be better to place it here because it means that I get more power and I get above you. And yes, ultimately I want to be above you in all of them if I can, but it's more about resource management and where am I going to get most return on my investment.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Yeah. I don't want to approach you about it because again it depends on what you're doing. Because if you're neglecting them, then I I I can then funnel things into something else. So again, it's it's that reactivity. What have you done? Do I need to pivot what I'm doing to keep up with you?

SPEAKER_01 40:05

It's really weird.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Yeah, but probably the biggest disconnect.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

But yeah, a lot of the time I am looking at what you're doing, and I'm pivoting and changing what I'm attack depending on what you've done or what I can what I think you're going to do.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

And maybe that's because again, it clicked for you a lot earlier on, and I'm still perhaps behind you in the learning because maybe that's something that will suddenly kick in. Yeah, we talked about uh one of our earlier games that I don't necessarily lean into particularly what my faction does, and I sometimes find that quite difficult to do.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

And you got a lot better when you did start paying a bit more attention.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

And so maybe it's something that will click at a later time point for me, but yeah, I don't know that I feel that competitiveness in the same way that you do. I find the only And yet I think I would do if we have more players, which we'll come onto in a minute.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

I think with the exception of June and our two player ju two-player only jewel type games, I find this the most competitive one in our collection.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

I would have to sit and think and look.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

I feel like I'm most in control, and I feel like it's the most head-to-head, aside from Dune Imperium. Dune Imperium is on a slightly different level, but that's that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yeah. Feed for thought. Anyway, so how did you rate it? Eight. Uh so I gave it a six.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Alright, scalability. So this is FOMO. Does it need more players?

SPEAKER_00 41:33

Yeah. Does it need it does it need more players? Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

I mean, we're wading into a massive discourse around this anyway, and I think it's uh all of the things that you've talked about would all be massively increased and massively better if you have more people on the map taking up more space and more fighting over resources.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

You know, you talked about, oh well, um when you mess up, that's on me because that was my my decision to make, but actually with more players, there'll be more players sabotaging what it is that you're about to do. And I think that's where the real fun and the joy, and maybe it's because I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Yeah. Yeah, that I can as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

That maybe I then feel that it perhaps lacks.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yeah. Yeah, the game does not the game does nothing to force you to butt heads. You have to choose to do that, and in a two-player game, it is more it is less reliable that that's going to happen. Yeah. You can end up in scenarios as that game you mentioned where we were at the opposite end of the map kind of doing our own thing for wonderful time.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Because also the map itself, you know, you you you obviously pick where you start, and it makes sense to pick places where there are lots of your land um option available. Or things that you can easily Yeah, terraform without too much cost, because terraforming early game is really expensive. Yeah, it's crippling different.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

If you go the wrong direction, it can completely wipe out your resources.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

Yeah, exactly. So a lot of the the maps, so a lot of the places that you start, you you know, you are going to start in very different places, um, which means that often money is a real issue for us and a real struggle for us. Um, because you have to pay through the nose for your trading houses. Yeah, because you're not adjacent to another player. Because you're not adjacent to another player. Um and that then becomes really costly. So actually, you know, money is the thing that we really struggle for. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Um it is.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Um yeah, I mean I'm not going to sit here and pretend that this doesn't cry out for more people. Yeah. Okay. I think that is a given. I think everybody understands that. I think this was always designed with I at l I would say at least four people in one.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yeah. Although it would make it an exceedingly long game.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yes, it would be a long, but anything, any heavy game you play with four people is going to take you, you know, you need to put you need to put out an entire evening or afternoon for that. Um, so yes.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

And when you're old like us and go to bed at half nine, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

So I mean, absolutely, zero arguments from me on that case on on that front. It is a game that desperately. Wants more people. It's designed for that. It should be played as that.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Is it broken?

SPEAKER_00 44:05

No, it is absolutely not. And this is this is what I wanted to get absolutely clear, and this is why I disagree with some of the discourse that I've seen. There seems to be quite a lot of people out there who categorically say this is pretty much unplayable with two. I am sure you can judge. We've only ever played as a two-player game, and I'm sure you can judge from my scores in the first half of this episode. I think that's categorically untrue.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

It may be better.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

It may be better with more. I mean, I have a feeling if I did have a regular four-player group playing this, I don't know if I play anything else, it's that good. Nemesis. But I wouldn't uh I wouldn't let that put you off at least giving this a go. At two.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

I think it's a I think it makes it a different game, but it does not make it a bad one. I think that's I think that's my point here. I think because it makes it a bit of a different game. I think people write it off. And I imagine if you've got used to playing it in a group and you try to play it as two, you'd be like, oh, you know, this is this is it's too different. It's a different beast. Yeah. But it doesn't make it less of a fun, engaging, exciting board game.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

So what I would say is that uh for people, because it's a very strategic game, and you've talked about the fact that you know it is a skill, it is a skill game, and that when you then have other people thwarting it, it makes it so much more nail-biting, and uh you would have to be really on the fly and really reactive, and that is not what happens when you play it too. Yeah, you can almost plan out how you're going to well, I'm sure you probably do kind of plan out how you're gonna get to victory and what it is that you need to achieve, and it becomes almost how well can I execute my plan, versus that cutthroatness. And I think, yeah, maybe that's why I I like it less, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Potentially, yeah, fair enough. I mean, I think one thing to be aware of though is as I've said, this is this is very much a skill-seeming kind of game.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Are you about to tell me it's gonna learn to play a shoe on my part? No, I'm joking. No, no, not at all. First time ever.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

No, no, no, no, that's not about you. If if you did get a group of four or five people, say, round the table to play this, the likelihood they're all at the same level is going to be quite low.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

And if you're playing a three-hour game and two say, for example, let's just take us as an example who you know, we played this over 20 times, we got one of our friends around and go, let's play Terra Mustaca, it'd be an horrific beatdown for two hours.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

And they'd also walk off and get bored.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Yeah, they'd have a they'd they would have a really bad time. So I think there is an element of skill matching to it, where it's all very well to say, oh, okay, four people would be a great game. I not necessarily, because you could have two people who are just runaway leaders and two people just having a really bad time. Um, depending on you know how they approach board games, but I could see that I I think you'd have to be quite careful to kind of skill match within within the groups that you're playing with if you had the luxury of choosing. Um I do think people who played it a fair amount will just run away with it, and um that might put other people off. I don't know, depending on on the kind of person they are. Um so yeah, I mean I had a real sort of head-heart conversation with myself. Yeah, uh head says this should be somewhere down a three, heart says it's a five for me because I think it is absolutely playable and it's not broken at two.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah, so I went with five because because the fact that it's not broken at two, it would absolutely be better with more, but it's not broken, it's perfectly playable and it's perfectly and it's a good game at two, it's just not the game is meant to be meant, it was designed to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

So yeah, I think for for me, five is fair. I could mark it further down, but I just I I I I just want to make a point that sometimes trying these things out at two, just because there's a prevading discourse there, it doesn't work, isn't always true.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Okay. So let's total those scores up.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

So that gives us a average total of five point eight, so two player rating of six. Which is probably a point too high.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Probably, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Um I think my my feelings about competitiveness has bugged that up, probably a point above where it should be. Uh scoring system is a scoring system, so we say six, but reality it's five. So, yeah, one of my favourite games. Not the best two-player game.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

But give it a whirl. If you're there at your local board game cafe or you rent board games, or you know, board uh board game club or whatever, give it a crack.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Yeah, I think it's very much in the if you play it as to maybe a try before you buy scenario. I I absolutely love it. We've got hundreds uh, you know, like so many hours of of of fun out of it. Um I do disagree with that should only be for three plus. Um, but there are issues. Okay. So thank you very much for joining us. Um as always, if you've uh listen to us on your podcast Medium of Choice, a review or star rating or whatever it allows you to do will be very much welcomed.

SPEAKER_01 48:59

If you're watching on YouTube, then like and subscribe.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Yeah, we've just gone uh live on YouTube a little while ago. Um probably two months ago by the time this actually goes out. We'll look behind the curtain there. Um but until next time, have fun, be good to each other, and play a lot of support games.