Episode 21 - The White Castle: Dicey Bridges

Thanks for joining us for this month's episode! Sorry for being a week later than usual, sometimes life gets in the way. 

In this episode we appraise the dynamite in small packaging that is the White Castle. A novel take on dice drafting and worker placement in feudal Japan. We run through our normal scoring criteria and nominate this as the best game to play with someone you don't want to speak to. There is, of course, much more to it than that, so join us on our deep dive and see if this one's for you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:15

Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Board with Each Other, the board gaming review podcast that looks at board games through the lens of playing them as a pair. Whether that's with your significant other or a BFF, or that feudal Japanese lord you're trying desperately to impress via the medium of medium Euro games. My name's Al Simpson, and I'm joined as ever by my co-host and wife, Hannah Kelly.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Hi guys.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

And today we are looking at the dynamite in a small box that is the White Castle, published by De Vere Gaines. The Y Castle is a medium weight Euro, medium to high weight Euro, I would say. Quite complicated.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Heavyweight.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Heavyweight. And in the White Castle, you take the role of a local feudal lord in 18th century Japan, the Edo period, to be specific. And you are trying to curry favour with the ruler of the Titular White Castle. No, it's not the Emperor.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Not the Emperor. Of the Titular White Castle. You do this via the try and interested method of dice drafting and worker placement, which we all know Japanese feudal lords just love. How the game works.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And courtesans.

SPEAKER_03 1:29

And Cortisans, well, courtesans are part of it, yes. How the game works is you start a round by rolling nine dice for a two-player game. There's more more dice involved if you're playing with more than two people. And you place these dice on cool little bridges on the board. You then take turns in selecting dice and placing them down on the board to allow you to take certain actions. So these actions vary between gaining resources, of which there are five different ones. There's Dimeo Seals, there's money, there's Mother of Pearl, there's iron, and there's rice or food. You use those resources to take further actions. Well, you can take further actions with further dice, but you can take actions to place a variety of three different workers on the board. These workers are gardeners, which you can place in gardens, which give you sort of passive income at the end of every round. You have uh swordsmen or warriors that you place on the training grounds that basically stack up with the number of courtesans you place.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

You place to give you instant bonuses as well, don't they?

SPEAKER_03 2:33

Yeah, they do give you instant bonuses, that's right. Most things that you place, with the exception of gardeners, will give you something back either immediately or at the end of the end of the round. Um perhaps the most important. You place them sort of at the bottom of the castle. The castle has an entrance and then three levels, and you use the courtesan action to place courtesans, but also to move them up in the castle further to the daimyo himself in the top level. When a courtesan ends its turn in a particular room, there's cards associated with order the rooms. You get to keep that card and it is added to what's called your lantern bonus. Uh, when they get to the top, you get a permanent powerful bonus by placing it down on a again another randomized card that's that's put in that room during setup. With the dice, they are placed on the bridges in order from lowest to highest. If you take the lowest number dice available to you, you also get your lantern bonus when you take that dice, which is not fantastic at the start of the game, but as the game goes on, you had more courtesans get you those cards out of the rooms and put them on your player board. That lantern bonus starts to become more and more powerful. Um the only other thing worth mentioning is the passage of time track. So that is a bit like another you gain it, a bit like you would a resource or you take actions and you gain resources from them. Um the passage of time track is just basically worth more and more victory points the further you get along on it. So the more points you get on that, the more victory points you get at the end of the game.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

But you also have to unlock that by using daimyo seals as well. Yeah, there's parents.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah, you can't just go endlessly aggressively on it, as you say. The currency called the Daimyo seal is used to unlock that alongside a lot of sort of other other elements. Um on your player board, you have a you place all of your meeples, and each of your your various meeples hide resource bonuses. You gain those resource bonuses if you take the action on your player board to play a particular type of worker. So if you put the dice down to play a courtesan, you then get all of the bonuses that you've uncovered on that row, and another card at the end, which again you you gain via via play through the courtesans. Um, you do not get all those bonuses if you use uh an action on the board to put that worker down. So that's sort of quite an important distinction. And the dice value are of all the spaces are are sort of printed on the board. And if you put a dice down that is worth more than the value required, you get that much money. And if you want to use a dice to to play an action that you that that dice can't afford, you can make that up with coins, and that's where sort of money comes into play. Um you can gain victory points during the game, but the vast majority are at the end. And I think that's pretty much it.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

The only thing that I think may be worth mentioning is that a lot of games that we play, the rules are ostensibly the same for two-player and multiple players. You might have an automator or whatever. However, there is a significant difference with this.

SPEAKER_03 5:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

And I think it's probably worth mentioning.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Yeah, I probably mentioned that at the outset. So when you play a two-player game, if somebody's put a dice down on any room or any board space to take that action, it's essentially blocked for the rest of the round. In multiplayer games, so three plus, you can stack if you have a higher value dice, you can stack that on top of an opponent's to still take that action. So you can't block spaces essentially, um, which does change the dynamic of the game quite substantially. There is that sort of blocking element in a two-player game. One of the things that uh probably sets this game apart from a lot of medium to heavyweight Euros is its length. Um, the game takes place over three rounds or three turns. So you have nine and only nine turns to win the game, which means every single action is important.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yep. Um it also makes for some quite short games as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Yeah, it can make for some quite short games. Um you've got that sort of heavy weight without the runtime that you usually find around the sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

I mean, in terms of runtime, I I find it's quite difficult to work out.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

I'd probably say in the region of 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, what does it say on the box? 80 minutes it says.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, I don't think we've got a game that's okay. I think you need to get away.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, that would be multiple players. But yeah, I reckon 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Well, games tend to run around now, I think. So yeah, I uh we heard a lot of buzz about this. We like our medium euros, medium weight euros.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Um I think for us one of the appeals was the fact that you know it's so compact. It's so compact.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Yeah, we'll talk about a little bit by that.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about it in the review, but I think that again makes it stand out as something that's got a lot of weight and big punch to it.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah, but not little footprint. Yeah, a little shelf footprint basically. Yeah. So yeah, we picked it up and um birthday present. Yeah, it was a birthday present, thank you very much. Um but yeah, I mean, is there anything you want to say before we get on to scoring?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

No, I think so. Let's start off with the scoring.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

So, first up under our general uh scoring round is components. So thinking about the books, the things you get in the box, the board space, yeah, tear down. Tear down, all that kind of stuff. Um so I will say that the artwork's actually really quite beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

Yeah, it's very pretty.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah, it's really pretty and it's really lovely to look at. The board itself, the player board, is quite busy, I find.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Yeah, that's what I was about to say. The artwork's very pretty when you can see it, but it is buried under iconography. Yes. Do you like icons? Do you really like icons? You will like this.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, lots and lots of icons. Um, you've already mentioned them as well. The little 3D bridges are Yeah, they're just they're just really cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:12

And the it's got the coolest round counter I've ever seen in a game. It's a massive coy fish. Oversized compared to everything else. Massive chunky coyfish. Yeah, it's awesome. Um given that there's so much going on on the board, the rest of the tokens are a little bit small and bit fiddly.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

I would say that they are very small and they are very fiddly. And I think if you've got things like arthritis, if you've got any sort of like issues with mobility or moving your hands, they they are very fiddly. Even just to use, so on your player match, you have little cubes to count your resources, so your mother of pearl and stuff, that is also very, very fiddly to use, and I have picked it up and dropped it and then not know where I am.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Although the player boards do have that three-dimensional element, so the the those little cubes do slot into the player board, which is always an I like I do like player boards where you could slot things in, so you bump it, it's not all gonna go flying and what have you. Um, but yes, it's a lot of iconography. I'd say it's sort of Arcanova level. Yeah, there's a about the the same there, but it does look really cool on the table.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, it really does look really cool, and also given that there are so many tokens and cards, different lots and lots of different cards and different varieties of cards, a huge amount has been packed into a box that is absolutely really quite small. We've taken uh again bigger books on holiday.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Yeah, it's the size of a very large hardback book.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Yeah, I don't even think it's a it's not even A4 size, it's no, no, it's slightly smaller than A4. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Um yeah, which is an incredible marvel, I have to say. Like if you look at if you are somebody who's shelf space poor, this is a really good and you like your larger, heavier games, this is a really, really good shout.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Um I will say because of the amount of different decks of cards and different icons and how you have to set up the board, it does take a while to set up.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Yeah, setup is fiddly.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, it's fiddly, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

And it takes a while. And it takes a while. So it's one of those things for a a relatively short game, the setup is disproportionate. Yeah. That makes sense. Like there's a there's there's much longer, bigger, more expansive games that take less time.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:23

Thinking about the size, the arc novas of this world, you know, they they are they are simpler games to set up.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

But it's also there's a lot of randomization that goes on as part of that. So again, I mean, some of the bigger, more expansive heavy euros, there there isn't a level of randomization.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

No, there's not you have for this very the what the the the board that you're playing with because of the cards, everything sort of dictated by the cards, looks very different from game to game. It does change quite substantially.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Um because of that, so again, because of the size, you know, one of the things that we've talked about is this is a really good game for travel because it takes up a huge amount of space.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

I suppose this doesn't take up a huge amount of space.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

It doesn't take up a huge amount of space. But I suppose the flip side of that is It does when it's out, it does when it's out, and also you've got a lot of pieces to lose potentially. So, yes, it's great for going on holiday, but you'd still need a nice table, a decently sized table to be able to play it on. You couldn't play it in a pub.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

No, absolutely not. It's it's I mean, it's not a huge massive table hog in the vein of thinking of other ones we've done like Nemesis and Arknova and Clank. But I'd say June Imperium, roughly, you'll need about the same amount of space to play this.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Maybe not that much, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Slightly less, but getting there.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Um, so yeah, what did you score it?

SPEAKER_00 11:40

So I scored it a seven.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

I gave it an eight. I think uh the the iconography overloads may be a put-off for some people. So approach with caution if you do find very busy boards a problem. I'm I'm fine with that, it doesn't bother me, but it could put some people off.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Um I only marked it down because I find the setup a bit fiddly and some of the tokens a bit fiddly, but I think it's a necessary evil with what they're trying to achieve. And I think what they manage to pack into the box of size is a marvel.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

So I think an 8 is well deserved on the components side. And nothing feels cheap, nothing feels flimsy, it's it's good.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Alright, so then on to our next category, which is complexity. So this also includes things like AP, so analysis paralysis. Um and when we tend to score this, it's not necessarily the more complex it is, the higher score it gets, but how well does the complexity serve the gameplay?

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So I'm gonna put it out on the table that when we first started playing this, for me, AP was an absolute killer.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Yeah. If you suffer from AP, this game has it written all over it.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:46

Because not only is there a lot of analysis you need to do to uh to even just understand what your turn will reward you or achieve, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

You know, you'll get out of it.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

But I think as in as in with most Euros, this the the you win games that are based on the cascades of a single action allowing you to do lots of different things, and trying to analyse what there is because of this board and the number of icons and just the way the game works is actually quite i it it it's it's a lot of mental uh agility required to do that. It might just be us, but I find it's it is very thinky in that sense. And because the game is so tight and you only have those nine turns, you mess up, you've lost.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:31

If you if you waste one of those turns, you will lose against somebody vaguely competent.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

So it it does push you into that AP space because you start to doubt yourself like, am I squeezing every drop of action out of this turn to ensure that I'm still in the game?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

And I think that's it's there's a lot more AP in the first round than there is in later game, because actually by later by by the second or third round, you've already you know what you need to do in order to win or you know what you're working on. Yeah, you're gonna be able to do that. But those first couple of plays are just so open. And I swear that I've sat there for about 20 minutes, if not longer, sometimes trying to work out what it is that I want to do. And that works for us, and that's fine, you're incredibly tolerant. But if you've got somebody who is like me and you can't sound that, then this probably is gonna put a real dampener on things for you.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yeah, if you do suffer from it, I'd definitely approach with caution, I have to say. Um, I I don't suffer from AP. No, I've got borderline in this. Yeah, it's the closest the game I think has ever pushed me. I've got lost in my head where I've just been staring at the board, wide-eyed, bug-eyed, and going, What am I doing? And it's daunting because it is so open. You I think a lot of games you start out with quite a shrunk-down decision space that widens up as you go. This is almost the opposite. You start up with this just complete massive plethora of options open to you. And if you're going first, you know, you take any of these dice, you do any of these things. What do I do? And it's it's very daunting, particularly when you've perhaps learned the game. Because when you're learning the game, you're like, ah, I'll just do this.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

I'll just do whatever and see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

But that space which, when you learn the game and get really, really competent with it, that middle space is difficult because you yeah, you'll have constant crisis of oh, am I doing the right thing? Yeah, and you know.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Um and because you've got so much iconography as well, because there's a second element of trying to then translate well what does this actually mean in terms of practical you know, impact on game.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

And while the scoring. And while the scoring is very clear, I still after ten games, I don't think I'm completely au fay on optimal moves for scoring. I think they all can be quite good, and which is great, as from a design perspective, because there are multiple paths to victory. But on a oh, I sh I need to I know what I need to be doing side of things, no, it doesn't help because uh the other uh well, what should you be doing? Anything as long as it's good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

As long as you're doing something and achieving lots with it.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Lots with it, you know, there's that element to it, so it's it's a tough nut to crack in in in that sense. Um is that to its uh benefit or its detriment?

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Well, you really uh I think that as we have played more games of this, I've had to just let go and play much more on instinct. And I think certainly that that there is an element of AP around that anyway, like as you get more confident that you can kind of just instinctually go, well actually, I think I'll get more out of this. But I definitely had to make a conscious decision that in order for us to be able to play this, I needed to just go, you know what, Hannah, just do what you think is right, not not sit there and analyse everything.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah, and I think I'll touch on this a little bit more um in our in our two players, but I think you suffered with this in a little bit of a similar way as you did with Terra Mystica, where I was winning a lot of games and sort of the middle point. And I think it's because you were playing the game and forgetting that I was even here.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Whereas I was playing a bit more reactively to what you were doing, yeah. And I think again that that that's that's a problem in this.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah. Um But that's about people's individual playstyles.

SPEAKER_03 17:11

Of course, yeah, it's not a criticism, it's just something to to to mention. Um, because it is so busy, you can't forget the other person's even there.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Yes, you can.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

You just start playing the game, you start playing you versus the game, and this ain't a solo game. You know, somebody else's they're messing with your plans or seeing what you're doing and taking different paths because of that.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

But we'll talk about that in a yeah. Yeah, we will, yeah. We'll come back to that. So, in terms of the rules themselves and how complex the game is.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

Yeah, it it's it's a complex game. There's no there's no other way to slice it. We did make a few mistakes of the rules. Um, whether that was me or the rule book, I don't know. I I'm probably gonna err on me.

SPEAKER_00 17:48

Well, one of the rules that we misinterpreted, the first big mistake that we made, we were not the only ones, a lot of people made that mistake. Which is when I can't remember what it was.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

It's when you take a worker action, so either gardener, soldier, or courtesan, you only get the bonuses that you revealed on your player mat if you place your dice on your player mat. Yeah, yeah. And we were not we weren't doing that.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Yeah, we weren't doing that at all. And so I think there is an element of perhaps maybe that wasn't explained well enough in the rules.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Or could have been made a bit bolder, a bit clearer.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

A bit clearer. Yeah. Um, and there have been a couple of other, I think, mistakes that we've made.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Yeah, but I think those are just me not reading it. Again, it's it's a compact rule book for those a game this complex. I don't think it's really their fault. They've obviously tried to keep it as trimmed down as possible.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

And I think any game where you rely very heavily on iconography, there's always going to be that element of complexity because you have to go one step further in order to be able to understand what you need to do.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

I still haven't memorised all of them after sort of 10 or so players. I will eventually, but I'm still not there.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

But I don't think inherently the rules are overly complex, um, particularly, and I think what you do in a round is fairly straightforward and fairly simple. It's just understanding how all those moments join up together, the impact that it has on the ball state, yeah, and the synergy between the different actions that you do.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

So yeah, it's it's it's it's more the strategy is complex. Much more complex than the basic rule set. If you've played if you played any sort of medium weight game, you should be fine with bringing your head around the rules. Yeah. Getting your head around playing the game well is another matter.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Yeah. So how did you score it then?

SPEAKER_03 19:17

I gave it an eight because I think I think its tightness and uh the thinkiness of it is to its benefit.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

And I think the the complexity of it is impressive again, with the the the size it takes up, and it serves the gameplay well. I think you know it it's it's it's as complicated as it needs to be. I don't think there's any excess fluff. I think it's it's fine.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Yep. Um so I also scored an eight. Um I've uh made my point clear about AP, but again, I think that's a me issue, really, more than anything else.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

But I think it's important to mention because other people do suffer from it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

Um so yeah, eight.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Alright, and then we move on to shelf life. So this includes things like value for money but also replayability. Yeah. Um, what's the price point on it?

SPEAKER_03 20:00

So this retails for between£25 and£30, which I think is exceptional value.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Absolutely. Again, what heavyweight Euro gain.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

Exactly. Yeah. Um and considering the components in the box, I mean it's it's not it's not completely cheaped out rubbish, is it?

SPEAKER_00 20:19

No, no, you've got cards, you've got like wooden counter cubes, you've got this massive koi carp. Um, yeah, I think that's an exceptional price point um and really good value for money. Yeah. From that point, no issues there.

SPEAKER_03 20:31

Fine. Um what about replayability?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

So it's quite heavily randomized um right at the very beginning. So, in terms of what your starting bonuses are, what your landing bonus is going to be, um, but also what resources you get from which rooms. Yeah. So, as you've said, that means that actually your strategy has to change from game to game. Yeah, it does, yeah. Um, and you can have wildly different games as a result. We've had some games where it's been almost nigh impossible to get any resources and be scored really badly, yeah, versus other games where we're k-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Um, so in that sense, there's a lot of replayability. What I will say is I'm gonna go back to the AP. I think because I struggle so much with AP and I've had to let go of that, I think for me, my enjoyment of it has waned as a result.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

Yeah, fair enough.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Because that's not how I want to play games all the time. Yeah, it's not what you it's not what you look like. I don't care as much.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah, I can understand that. Yeah, that makes completely sense.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

A fun experience for both of us.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Yeah. I mean, yeah, the randomization thing, if this is your bag, you know, you can go on forever with this. I think what I'm going to say, and I'm going to use it to segue into the next bit, which is isn't any fun? Because I think there there's there's something I want to talk about in the fun factor that has a massive impact on this. So I'm just going to talk about that now and we'll sort of segue between the two.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

We'll score it separately afterwards.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Yeah. So I mean I can score it now. I've given it a similar For Shelf Life.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Fancies!

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Yeah, okay. The reason I've given it a six is when this game works, it's great, I love it. Um, but there is a real issue for me, and the issue is there by design. They've obviously tried to make an extremely tight game that's very, very complex, that plays in a really achievable uh length of time, and I I lord that. The problem with this game is it always makes me feel it always ends with me wanting more, and not in a especially good way. I feel like it's ended just as it's got going. And I struggle with that, and it's it makes me less inclined to want to go back to it.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

See, the thing is I disagree with that.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

That's fine, you can disagree with it, but it's the way I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, no, no, no, that's fine. But I I think for me, by the time you've got to that end of round three, which does feel very short, and you've got such limited resources and such limited time to achieve anything, I actually don't think another round, as the board stands as it is, and I know there's been an expansion, but yeah, I was gonna touch on that in a second. Um I don't think, unless you are neck and neck, I don't think it would tangibly add anything.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Yeah, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Do I want it? Yes. Does it always feel a little bit anticlimatic because this huge, big all this thinking and my plans finally paying off, and boom, it's over. That's two different things.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

But that's kind of my point. I think you're maybe articulating a little bit. It's just like as I'm starting to really enjoy myself, the game ends. I think that that is an issue for me. Like, I I I you could leave games wanting more because you've had such a great time. I leave this game a little bit frustrated because I want more and I've not got it.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Okay. Um whereas I feel like I've i I've kind of I've done what I need to do, and yes, one more turn would be great, but I don't think it would actually necessarily impact in particular. It would just allow the other person to race further ahead.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

I suppose if the if if that was the case, yeah, perhaps. And I'm sure they're play tests, and this was the sweet spot that they reached. It doesn't change the way the game makes the game makes me feel, and it does impact the the fun I have out of it. As you mentioned, the expansion, I think it's worth bringing up. We have not played it with the expansion because it's we came out very, very recently. But the expansion does add a fourth round and another bridge.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Um, and I've got that nagging. Will that fix this for me? I don't know. But do I want to go back to this enough to warrant it? Dunno. So it's it's a it's a it's a funny one. I find it interesting is that the direction that they went in, so I might not be alone and in the way I feel. You know, maybe they were trying to fix something they didn't think was quite right. I'm not sure. Um But yeah, I just wanted to get that out of the way. It was a kind of it's it is related to the shelf life for me and as why I scored it down to sex, because I'm not I'm not sure I have the requisite amount of fun to make me want to go back to this for the next five years, you know. Yeah, I'll play it, I'll enjoy it, and all the rest of it, but there is that nagging but anticlimactic, but disappointing. Um with that aside, I do really enjoy playing this. With that aside, so you know, the negative rye on the outset. Um, it's got that great cascading feeling when it works.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

So now that's the bit where I would probably echo your sentiments about it being too short because actually, if you had another round, all your cascading things would trigger ding ding ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah, you'd have this great big lantern bonus to work with.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

That would make it more fun, but again, that's that satisfied feeling versus do I think it would impact gameplay on uh yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 25:43

But I think that satisfied feeling does wrap itself up in the fun for me. I want to leave a game feeling like I've had a really good game and I often don't in this.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Um one of the things that also kind of distract d detracts uh from the fun element in this for me is that you you've already touched on it. If you make a mistake early on, or if you perhaps rest on your laurels because you don't quite know what you're doing, yeah, you will be punished for it for the rest of the game.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

Yeah, it is exceptionally punishing. It's probably the most punishing board game in that respect, I think I've ever played, because you cannot make one mistake.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

One mistake, you're done, you're toast.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And that sometimes hampers again. So because I'm having to let go of the AP, there is a moment, oh shit, I should have done that instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that does, and then and then I beat myself up. Well, I don't beat myself up about it. But much my feet stream, but I do I do then regret that for the rest of the game, and it does have a huge impact. So that kind of detracts from the fun a little bit from me.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Yeah. But yeah, I dn I don't want to be too negative because this this is a great game.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

It absolutely is. It is a great game.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

I think we just have I I just have my my own personal foibles with it, and I don't think what I'm saying, unless what I'm saying really resonates with you, don't let it put you off. Yeah. That's all. Like give this a go, because it is a great game and it deserves to be played. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So how did you score it on fun?

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Uh I gave it a seven.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Oh, okay. Alright, fine.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

Because it is a really fun game, but I couldn't give it a higher than that because of the the feeling it leaves me with.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, so I gave it a six. And again, my down voting it is because I've had to not play the game that I want to play. Sure. Play the game I want to play. Play the game I want to play it.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

We've got to see you for the next ten minutes and let's go through all the permutations. Let's make sure we get it right. Um yeah, I mean, for me, this would be up, uh this would be an eight or a nine if it left me feeling more satisfied, but it doesn't. That's why it's a seven. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Alright, so let's add those up.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Okay, so that gives us a grand total of seven exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Do you know what? I think that's a pretty good score.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Yeah, I think it is as well. And I think I think that's where what I feel about it.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah. Um, I think yeah, that's a pretty good score.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Very good.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, very good. And I think as long as you don't have necessarily our issues, then probably it's up that to eight or nine.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Okay, so on to the second part of our uh rating uh categories, and this is where we try and answer the question how well does it play as two? Yeah. Um so on the first of those, we've got table talk.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

I'm getting to know you.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, getting to know you. So I'm only gonna go out on a limb and say this is not a good first eight game.

SPEAKER_03 28:16

No. Are you having a long-standing, not speaking to each other argument with your partner, but desperately still want to play a ball game? Do I have the game for you?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

I mean, we've been there.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

I'm quite certain you could play this game without saying a single word to each other.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:35

You could, because everything is open information. You don't really have to narrate your moves because it's obvious what you're doing by putting things on. You help yourself to resources, you could play this in absolute silence.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Um, so yeah, it's not great for the old table talk. No, it's not um and interaction.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

I mean, we do obviously narrate what we're doing because you know Yeah, we just do that. We just do that. Um, but no, not particularly. It's an awful lot of thinking, an awful lot of silence. Um, and yeah, as you uh as you said, it's all open, so I can see what it is you're trying to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Yeah, everything's open information, and what you need, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Um, and it's just a case of who goes for what die, and even then that kind of is also to a certain extent predictable.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Yeah, to a certain extent, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, so it's just I mean there's not a lot to say here, just like during the game.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And what's also interesting is there's not a huge amount of trash talk either that goes along with this. And I don't know whether that's because there's a less interaction in general.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

And also you're thinking so hard.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Oh yeah, I'm thinking so hard.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

Well, not just you in particular, I've just anybody who plays us.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yeah, there's not a huge amount of trash talk.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

There's a lot of thinking, a lot of placing things down, but yeah, it's it if you want something that's highly interactive that you've got to talk to each other loads, this is not it by any stretch of the imagination.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

No. I gave it what I think is quite a generous four.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Dutto. No. Yeah, generous four. Um it's not the sort of game, so you know, feels harsh, but we have to rate it on what it is. Yeah, it's you can inject some into it, but you would have to. You can play in silence.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Um, which is unusual because it's not a solo, it's it's not a solitaire that you play together. It is definitely an adversarial kind of game, but you can just play in absolute silence.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

So, talking about adversarial, um, our next category is competitiveness slash co-op. Well, clearly in this case competitiveness.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

Yeah. So, yeah, how competitive do you find quite coastal?

SPEAKER_00 30:27

So, interestingly, my thoughts on this have changed because of other games that we reviewed.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

Okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

So, you already touched on this because I think so much about my turns. Quite often I'm thinking about min-maxing in terms of what I can achieve that I completely forget that you are another player and that's all I have for an opponent to beat.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Yes, you do.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Um, and that is sometimes to my detriment.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

But I think therein lies the rub, isn't it? That's what makes it quite competitive.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah, by the very by the existence of that, it kind of proves it, doesn't it? It proves the hypothesis that it is quite a competitive game. And it is. It is. You can I wouldn't say mess with your opponent, but you can intelligently block them quite effectively in this game. Um, and you can see what they're doing, as we said before, it's all open information, and if you are clever about it, you can reach your own aims while also scuffering what they're trying to do. There's been many occasions where both of us are blocked in really vital space.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

And I think what's interesting in this, well, the extra spice in the competitiveness to this game, I find, is the uh player agency in dictating the turn order.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

Yes, I was gonna mention that.

SPEAKER_03 31:37

So the passage of time track, while it gives you victory points, also dictates who goes first every round. And in this game, it is exceptionally powerful to go first.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

And quite often, if you start off going first, you will end up coming into the lead a little bit, and actually it's worth them prioritizing passage of time in order to be able to steal that back from somebody. Yeah, it is worth it, but you only have essentially two options or two chances to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Yeah, well, you've got to use some of your one of your all-important nine turns to actually do that consciously, or you've got to do it as a part of a chain that you've set up. Yeah, either way, you still have to manufacture it. Um, but there's that rush to that open board space at the start of every turn to go, right, that is the best option, I'm going there. And sometimes you can head off in very different directions, and that's fine, and it's perhaps less so then, but when you're competing for the same thing, it it gets very, very fighty.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah. Um I do think what's interesting is like a lot of again, sort of Euro games that we've encountered or we've reviewed, it's not always immediately apparent who is winning.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

No.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Um, until you finally add up everything at the end. And because you have different options, so it's not just about how many courtesans you have on the board, it's also about how that interacts with things like your soldiers or your warriors.

SPEAKER_04 32:55

A combination of horses.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

You can almost neglect one element and over-compensate in another, and it it's it's not always clear and it's not really straightforward.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

You could also get a tasty chunk of victory points by hoarding resources.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

To a limit.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:09

There's an upper limit, but if you have full resources at the end, you get quite a few victory points. So there's that push-pull about okay, I'm actually not going to spend any of this, I'm just going to take the victory points instead.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

Um, there is a strategy of actually caning through victory points during the game, the detriment of doing other things, which can also pay off because it gives you quite a chunky head style.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Is there? How many?

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Well, some actions will give you victory points, so if you focus on Oh, I see what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Sorry, I think you could spend victory points.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

No, no, just sort of stocking them up during the game because you get victory points during and at the end. So yeah, there's a lot of different strategies to it. And again, it's not just about which strategy you choose, but what's your opponent doing, and is your strategy going to give more benefits and impact them at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Or are you both doing the same thing? In which case that's really problematic. But again, because you've got a randomised starting hand, again, things like your lantern bonus are all different. So again, what you go for might be quite different to your opponent.

SPEAKER_03 34:06

But yeah, I think it's it's a it's a good competitive experience. I think the only reason why I will mark it down a little bit is because the obfuscation of the strategy, it's such a thinky game that it can sometimes you need to be able to make that leap to where you both understand it enough before it gets competitive. So if you're the kind of person that tends to get things and dally in them like four or five plays and then sort of let's out move on, you might not get to the sweet spot in this. Um it's not super competitive straight out of the gates.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

No.

SPEAKER_03 34:44

Um it that competitiveness develops with your skill of playing it over time.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

Like a lot of deep good games, but I think probably even a bit more so in this one.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And again, I think for that reason, it's not a game that you could have played a handful of times and then introduced to another person, particularly.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

I mean you'd have to be they'd they'd have to be quite patient as they caught up a little bit. It's another one of those games that you probably want to see.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

So, you know, yeah, you play a few games and then go from there. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

But yeah, so overall I gave it a seven for competitiveness.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Same again. No, we're really we're really matching this time around.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

Synergistic.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Um so another thing I wanted to mention under competitiveness is that again, your rules are different between two and four uh three players.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

And I think that because of the way that the rules work, so as in you can only place one die down in each of the rooms, that also adds the competitiveness, perhaps in a way that it doesn't at multiple players, but then you've got other perhaps issues around competitiveness there.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Um yeah, I think that's segue size quite neatly in scalability, to be fair. Okay. Um so as we always mention, scalability is about how well does this work functionally as a two-player game, first and foremost. But also, do you have massive FOMO? Is there like, oh, this would be so much better with three or four? Um and I think it's straight off the bat, I think it's really important to mention there's that stacking dice thing when you introduce more players.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

We haven't played this at three or four players, but I imagine as you've established now, dear listener, we don't have any friends. It's just the two of us.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

And the friends that we do play probably won't want to play this. It's not really their bag. Um no, the the dice stacking mechanism in 304, I imagine, changes the game quite substantially. But I can't speak really to uh how much more or less competitive it makes it. Um it leaps out to me that it would lessen it because you can still stack a dice and still get that same action that everybody's been desperate to get. Um, but I might be wrong in that sense. It probably adds an additional level of strategy, as and you overspend on a space you want to block out, so you make it impossible for like you put a six down so nobody else can can then stack their dice on there. Um or you could tease people with a lower dice to try and get them to spend, you know, that there's probably like a lot of strategy that goes into it, but I've never played as such, so but I don't think I'm missing much from it.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

No, I think it plays perfectly well at two, and I've never gone, oh do you know what I really wish there was another person around the table because I think this would change the dynamics quite substantially. Um, and I think that certainly by being able to block spaces and rooms, it adds that competitive element to it, um, and it makes it work really well.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Yeah, yeah, and it's perfectly functional. You don't need uh automata or anything like that to make it work, like it just works as a two-player game, um, no issues there. I think the way they're balanced up with the blocking spaces is really good. I think they've they put a lot of thought into it and made sure that it does work as such. Um and I think that there is a solo mode as well, so I think it obviously works as a solitaire experience. Um not trying it myself, I don't tend to play solo games, but it is there. So yeah, I don't I don't think it's missing anything massive. I'd love to try it because I think it'd be really interesting strategically. Um I think particularly with four people, I imagine it's quite quite an interesting undertaking. Um, but it doesn't cry out for it in the way some games do.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

No, I think it works perfectly well, and I think it's a it's a really good, solid two-player game.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Sure. Okay. So I gave a seven as a result.

SPEAKER_00 38:31

Also a seven.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Okay. Alright, let's add those up then. So that gives us an overall two-player rating of six exactly. Um, which is a little bit on the low side, but obviously the table talk things had a massive impact on that. I think if you don't care about talking to the person at all that you sat across from, you can up that quite substantially just to uh 708. But yeah, if you if you want an interactive experience where you're having a chat, then yeah, it's gonna mark it down a bit. And that is one of our criteria. So there you have it, the White Castles. Um, a very good game that we have some personal uh difficulties with. Yeah, and I think it's frame this.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, I think it's really important to say that that's about us and about who we are and how we enjoy a game. I don't think I think you could absolutely rate this as a lot higher if you just didn't have our Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Hopefully we've given you enough, we've been clear enough about our reasons that if they don't resonate with you, dive in. If they do resonate with you, maybe approach with a little bit more caution. I still recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah, it's still a really, really good game, and I'm really glad that it sits on our shelves.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Alright. Well, until next time, uh have fun, be good to each other, play a lot of support games.